July 12, 2025 • 36 mins
In today’s episode of the Where Parents Talk podcast, host Lianne Castelino delves into the findings of educational experts Jenny Anderson and Rebecca Winthrop, authors of 'The Disengaged Teen.' They share their insights on the various modes of learning—Passenger, Achiever, Resistor, and Explorer—and how understanding these can empower parents to better support their children. Through a blend of qualitative and quantitative research, the authors share the importance of fostering an environment where curiosity thrives and students regain their independence in learning.
Anderson and Winthrop explore actionable tips for parents to help their teens navigate the complexities of school life, from addressing emotional health to fostering better communication and discipline.
What you'll learn:
- Why the disengagement of teens from school becomes pronounced during their transition into middle school
- How parents can play a pivotal role in their children's educational engagement
- Understanding the different modes of learning—Passenger, Achiever, Resistor, and Explorer
- Why promoting emotional health in teens involves encouraging curiosity and resilience
- Extracurricular activities can serve as vital outlets for teens
- Why the importance of consent and healthy relationships is increasingly relevant for teens
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- New York Times
- Quartz
- Time
- the Atlantic
- Brookings Institute
- Georgetown University
- Transcend Education
This podcast is for parents, guardians, teachers and caregivers to learn proven strategies and trusted tips on raising kids, teens and young adults based on science, evidenced and lived experience.
You’ll learn the latest on topics like managing bullying, consent, fostering healthy relationships, and the interconnectedness of mental, emotional and physical health.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast.
We help grow better parentsthrough science.
Evidence and the livedexperience of other parents. Learn
how to better navigate themental and physical health of your
tween teen.
Or young adult through provenexpert advice. Here's your host,
(00:23):
Leanne Castellino.
Why is your teen zoning out,burning out, or brushing school off
as pointless? And what can youas parents do to help them rediscover
the joy of learning? Welcometo Where Parents Talk. My name is
Leanne Castellino. Our gueststoday are a pair of guests in fact.
(00:44):
Jenny Anderson is an awardwinning journalist and an author
who spent over a decade at theNew York Times before pioneering
coverage on the science oflearning at Quartz. Her work regularly
appears in Time, the Atlantic,and the New York Times where she
explores the intersection ofeducation, mental health, and parenting.
(01:04):
Jenny is also a mother of twoteen girls. Rebecca Winthrop is a
globally respected educationexpert and director of the center
for Universal Education at theBrookings Institute. Her research
focuses on how to bettersupport children's learning. Rebecca
teaches at GeorgetownUniversity, is an author, and is
(01:25):
a mother of two boys.Together, Jenny and Rebecca are co
authors of the book theDisengaged Helping Kids Learn Better,
Feel Better, and Live Better.Jenny joins us today from London,
England, and Rebecca joins usfrom Washington. Thank you both for
making the time.
(01:45):
Thanks for having us.
Great to be here to set the.
Table for our conversation.Jenny, I'd like to start with you
and ask you if you couldcharacterize the current state of
disengagement when we'retalking about teens.
Yeah, it's pretty bleak. Wefound in our research that when kids
(02:05):
are in elementary schoolaround third grade, about 75% of
them love school. By the timewe get to 10th grade, that has dropped
25%. Now, loving school isn'ta perfect proxy for engagement, but
it's pretty close and it givesus a sense that something's wrong,
something's amiss. And thatdata has actually been pretty consistent
(02:26):
for a long time. Kids havebeen disengaged from learning for
a long time. We can talk abouta lot has changed and we can talk
about that. But that's kind ofthe current landscape you layer on
top of that chronic absentee,chronic absenteeism numbers, which
we can see globally verystrong in the U.S. you know, we know
that we have a problem on our hands.
(02:47):
Rebecca, you study this.Anything in there surprise you in
terms of what the currentstate is showing us?
The thing that I was surprisedat was that the numbers haven't bounced
back tremendously. From a postCovid dip. And again, we're still
(03:08):
gathering data, but it's notgoing in the right direction.
So what brought you twotogether to write a book on this
topic at this time?
So I reached out to Jenny tosay, please, please, please write
this book with me, because Iknew how important parents are to
(03:30):
student engagement, and I knewhow important student engagement
is to kids learning. And I hada personal aha moment as a parent
with my own two boys duringCOVID when I realized I, with all
my expertise, misj judged howengaged my two boys were. I thought
my oldest one was really happyto go to school and was in sixth
grade when Covid hit and, youknow, normally would bop out and
(03:53):
get straight A's, I thought hewas totally engaged. And the minute
his school went to onlinelearning and went past fail, he lost
all motivation, refused totry. And he told me, mom, if it's
not counted, it doesn'tmatter. And I realized he was not
engaged in learning things. Hewas engaged in getting good grades.
And my little one, who Ithought had been very disengaged,
(04:16):
had recently, right beforeCOVID had been diagnosed with dyslexia
and had really internalizedthis idea that he wasn't smart and
not capable and had sort ofgiven up trying. And when Covid hit,
he blossomed. He was actuallyreally engaged in learning. He loved
to learn. He just needed adifferent environment, free from
(04:37):
trying to keep up with hispeers. And I thought, gosh, I really
want to help other parentsunderstand what good learning looks
like. And I knew storytellinghad to be a really important part,
so recruited Jenny. So, Jenny,thank you for saying yes. And over
to you.
Yes, Rebecca is verypersuasive. I said no first, because
(04:58):
writing books is really hard.And. But I'd say there were kind
of two big reasons when I hadshifted from finance journalism into
education journalism, and Istarted going in some interesting
directions with kind of futureschools and neuroscience of infancy
and science of learning. AndI'm a sort of like, crazy curious
(05:19):
learner myself. And so I wasexcited by all of these kind of individual
stories, but I wasn't reallytrying to weave them together in
any comprehensive way. And onething a journalist loves is a hole
in the market. A scoop, so tosay. And when Rebecca proposed this
idea, as I said, I said no.But I saw that there really was a
hole in the market forsomething I desperately wanted myself.
And. And I really wanted forother people as well, which was helping
(05:43):
to support kids with theirlearning. It's a very specific thing.
It's not just emotions whichare incredibly important and factor
into how you learn. But, youknow, there's. There was quite a
bit on that, but this was aquite specific ask. And so I really
love the idea of trying to puttogether a lot of these little things
I was doing into a biggerframework. And I've always loved
(06:05):
translating kind of expertsfor laypeople. I always think of
sort of very busy parents andwhat do they need and how can we
give it to them in a way thatthey can kind of take it and use
it and move forward? Becausepeople are really, really busy. And
so Rebecca's incredibleexpertise was an opportunity to marry
that kind of how do we. Superpractical and tactical and helpful,
(06:26):
but also deeply grounded inresearch and evidence. So we're not
kind of of the moment, butreally something, hopefully that's
enduring.
You make it sound so simple,Jenny and Rebecca. But the fact is,
it's a massive topic.
No, no, it's very difficult.
Yes, it sounds like it, but soworthwhile. Can you take me through
what your approach was totackle something this large with
(06:48):
so many different facetsembedded within it?
I'm happy to talk you throughsort of our research methodology,
which is that we did bothqualitative and quantitative research
from a research perspective,they call that mixed methods. But
basically we started by doinga massive literature review. And
we looked broadly. We lookedat sociology and neuroscience, child
(07:13):
development. We looked atmany, many disciplines. And part
of the problem of academia isthey don't always talk to each other.
We did a very broad sweepthere. We did in depth qualitative
research where we followed 100young people, largely in the U.S.
all different demographicbackgrounds, races, ages, socioeconomic
(07:35):
status, parts of the rural,urban, and some in the uk. Many of
them were over three years.And then we did quantitative research
where Brookings and TranscendEducation nonprofit in the US partnered
up and did some big surveys,surveys of students and their experiences,
over 65,000 students. Andsurveys of parents, over 2,000 parents,
(07:57):
nationally representative. Andthat gave us a lot of information,
too. And then on top of that,we interviewed, I think, close to
100 experts, educators,parents, et cetera. So it was very
in depth.
Yeah, very in depth. It soundslike parsing through that must have
taken quite a bit of time.What was your approach when you were
tackling that piece of it, Jenny?
(08:19):
It was complicated. I mean, asI say, I talk to students a lot about
journalism. And I would saythat, you know, I lived my own advice,
which is rewrite, rewrite,rewrite, rewrite. I Think we rewrote
the book, like, start tofinish numerous times because we
would come up with a frameworkthat we really liked. We came up
with a framework for the fourmodes of learning, which I'm sure
(08:39):
we'll talk about. But thenthere was this question of what to
do with it. And so it was aquite complicated process where we
had one whole different bookidea. And then we switched that we
were really looking at schooldesign. And then we quickly kind
of pivoted to wait. That'sreally interesting, and that research
is really interesting, butlet's focus on parents. That's really
where we want to kind of useour power. And then we really then
(09:04):
played with a lot of differentstructures. I mean, writing is a
very. You know, literallyevery page can be rewritten 100 different
ways. And so we just. It wasvery much. We had some really great
editors along the way, a lotof sort of friends and academics
and experts who came in andhelped us. So it was a truly creative
process that was deeplyuncomfortable for both of us.
(09:26):
Anything in particular in theresearch that you uncovered, either
of you or both of you, thatreally, you know, took you by surprise?
1. One of the thing that I wasmost surprised to see was that the
kids who were deemed, quote,unquote, the problem children, who
we would talk about once wedeveloped the framework as being
(09:47):
in resistor mode, actually hada lot going for. They might be difficult
at the time, not doing theirhomework, disrupting class, not going
to class. But a lot of timesthey could pivot pretty quickly if
given not more restrictions,but more freedom, more leadership
opportunities, more chances todo really interesting extracurriculars
(10:12):
and enrich learningopportunities. In many ways, we in
the education system do theexact opposite when kids start becoming,
quote, unquote, problems. Sothat really surprised me is, you
know, the real potential ofthese kids who are in resistor mode
to really pivot quickly and bepretty great.
Can you take us through what?Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Jenny.
(10:35):
Oh, it's okay. No, we can go.Well, let's keep moving. Yeah, no,
I was just going to.
Say, like, what would you sayto a parent who is wondering why
their child doesn't care aboutschool anymore and all the signs
that they see from that childindicates that they're, you know,
indifferent, apathetic, etc.Etc. What would you say to that parent?
I would say count to 10. It'sreally, really hard when your kid
(10:58):
is resisting school, and itfeels. It can feel like they're sort
of challenging you, that theyare being lazy, that they this is
a sort of act of defiance orthat their potential isn't being
realized. And so what ourresearch uncovered is that that is
not often the case, that thereare a bunch of very complicated or
(11:21):
not even that complicated, butmore complex than it might seem reasons
that kids are disengaging. Sowhat my number one bit of advice
would be like, calm yourselfas much as you can, because it's
really hard. So count to 10and get curious what's going on.
And that curiosity has to comeespecially with teenagers, but even
(11:41):
preteens and even actuallyearly childhood with a lack of judgment.
So you are not judging themfor this resistance, defiance, whatever
you want to call it. You arecurious about what's going on with
them and trying to understandwhy they're showing up and they're
learning the way they are. Andyou're there to support them and
help them and help themmarshal resources and get through
(12:02):
the stuff they need to getthrough. You're kind of part of team
success, but you're not theperson who's going to stand over
them and dish out terribleconsequences in the moment that you
realize that they'redisengaged. There might be consequences
that have to come for nothanding in assignments, for not doing
things. But I think justreally starting with curiosity and
(12:23):
checking your judgment as bestyou can, it can be very hard, though.
Anything to add on that, Rebecca?
No, I think. I think Jennynailed it. One of the things we found
when we were diving into kidswho were really stuck in this resistor
mode is that there was alwaysa reason that they had moved into
that mode. It could bebullying, it could be neurodivergence.
(12:47):
They were, like, literallystruggling and didn't know what was
wrong with them and didn'tfeel that they could tell anybody.
It could be they got behind inschoolwork. A lot of kids just got
behind and got overwhelmed.And then they thought, well, that's
it. We had a kid say, well,that's it. I guess I'm not going
to college. And he'd been an Astudent in middle school, and it
was like, no, no, you can turnthis around. You were fine, 15 years
old. So there's always areason, which is what I think Jenny's
(13:10):
advice is spot on about how touncover that reason. And that's after
you figure that out, then youcan address it and help kids turn
around.
So resistor is one of the fourlearning modes that you identify
in the disengaged teen. Couldyou take us through each of them
and what parents should belooking for and how to manage them.
Jenny, you want to do that?
Rebecca, why don't I describethem and then you can do a couple
(13:33):
tips for each. Does that sound good?
Okay. Yeah.
The modes are Passenger,Achiever, Resistor, and Explorer.
Passenger is as it sounds.These are the kids who are coasting
along, doing the bare minimum,racing through their homework. They
show up often. They get goodgrades because school isn't challenging
enough for them. It may bethat it's too hard. It may be that
it's too easy. We talk aboutsomething called the zone of proximal
(13:54):
development, which is thatsort of learning sweet spot. And
sometimes kids who are kind ofchecked out of their learning are
really kind of under oroverwhelmed, one of the two. So that's
passenger mode. It can be veryfrustrating. Parents often think
of their kids as lazy. That iswhat they will say. They're just,
you know, they're lazy. Itmust. And it's. It feels maybe like
(14:15):
it could be a character thingversus a context and environment
thing. So that's Passenger,Resistor. We talked a little bit
about Resistor. The dubbed theproblem children. We would argue
they are children withproblems. They are withdrawing, they
are acting out. Everybodyknows that there's a problem. There
is no mystery with Resistor.And it's very tough for parents because
(14:35):
they feel very judged both byteachers at times and by other parents
because their kid is just notdoing what they need to be doing.
That's resistor mode. Andachiever mode is in some ways a really,
really tricky mode. These arethe kids who are knocking out of
the park gold stars andeverything put in front of them.
Teachers love them becausethey make them look good because
(14:56):
they're succeeding. They feellike they're doing their job so well.
Parents love them because theyfeel like they're responsible for
the somehow they did somethingright. But these kids can be very
fragile. They can be veryfragile learners. They assign their
self. Can assign their selfworth to their achievements. And
they do not like to take riskswith their learning. And they are
(15:17):
often crowding out a lot ofthe creativity they need to be developing
as a learner. Sort of excitedabout what is out there versus just
getting the right answer. Andso we do oddly worry about achiever
mode more than you might have.That's what I was going to say in
the beginning when you saidwhat surprised you the most? What
surprised me the. Isarticulating and putting some heft
(15:38):
on why. Why to worry aboutthese kids because I think we kind
of know that there's afragility. And we kind of know there's
maybe a cost, but thisresearch really confirmed that there
is. And then Explore Mode isthe peak of the engagement mountain.
It's not Achiever Mode, it'sExplorer mode. And these are kids
who are sort of very driveninternally. It's kind of where curiosity
(16:00):
meets drive. They're able tokind of express what they want and
try to drive the learning toown interests. They can identify
what they care about, they canpush to integrate that into what
they do during their day andinto their learning. And this is
really the skill that is goingto help kids thrive in an age of
AI where AI can do so much forus and can do so many of the things
(16:23):
that maybe Achiever Mode is sokind of good at highlighting, right.
Jumping through the hoops thatwe put in front of them. But Explore
Mode is really quitedifferent. It's both identifying
goals that you care about,being really resilient and going
after them, and being reallyadaptable when things go wrong, which
they always do.
So, Leanne, do you want totalk through some tips on how to.
(16:47):
So for kids in passenger mode,typically in the classroom, these
are the kids asking forclarifying instructions. Do you need
me to do a four paragraphessay or a five paragraph essay?
And then when they get home,parents most often hear the answer
to the question, how wasschool? Fine. Boring. Not much there.
(17:09):
What we found is that there'smany reasons kids end up in passenger
mode. And one of the typicalthings that happens is parents get
anxious that their kid seemsto not care. And then so they start
asking, well, did you do yourhomework? Well, what homework do
you have and when are yougoing to get done and start nagging?
And interestingly, naggingshuts down the problem solving part
(17:33):
of children's brains. There'sbeen incredible research on this
in brain scanners andeverything that when mother's voice
of course, starts naggingtheir children, the problem solving
part of the brain shuts down.So it's almost the exact opposite
thing of what we should do.And what we have in the book is a
whole section on how do youget from the sort of nagging procrastination
(17:56):
loop from hell into what wewould call a learning to learn cycle,
which is oftentimes what willhelp is helping kids in passenger
mode better plan, make betterplans about studying and then leave
it to them to see if they dothe plans. And if they don't do the
plans, you know they're goingto get some feedback. Wow. They didn't
(18:16):
get their homework in, Oops,they got a little bit of a bad grade.
Now, we're not advocating forletting them go off the rails and
fail freshman year of highschool, but, you know, give them
a couple days to see how itgoes. But oftentimes we found kids
really need help breakingthings down and making a plan because
schools are very busy teachingcontent, what to learn, and don't
(18:37):
spend a lot of time teachingstudy skills, organization skills,
or how to learn. So that isone big tip for kids in passenger
mode. Now, for kids inachiever mode who are doing all the
right things but end up being,as Jenny said, quite fragile, oftentimes
what you need to do is givethem small opportunities to take
(18:59):
a risk. You know, if kids inpassenger mode in the classroom ask
for clarity of, you know,instructions, what exactly? What's
the minimum you need me to do?Kids in achiever mode are asking
for the maximum. What do youneed me to do to get an A? What do
I do to get an A? And theyreally do not want to not get an
A. And oftentimes helping themjust take small risks. It could be
(19:23):
on things that aren't thatimportant to them. This idea of productive
struggle and risk taking, it'sokay if you take a risk and it doesn't
work out great. The feelingand the skill of picking yourself
back up really buildsresilience. And then for kids in
resistor mode, again, like wetalked about, one of the sort of
counterintuitive things isthat they really do need something
(19:47):
they're super interested in.So helping them find a spark, helping
them find something thatthey're super interested in, can
help draw them out and reallybuild engagement over time with school.
And there's actually lots ofevidence of if you get kids who are
sort of in resistor mode andyou give them, maybe they love music
(20:08):
and they're part of a band orsomething, once they really start
getting into that, thatinterest and engagement can spill
over to them trying harder inschool itself. In the US at least.
Part of the problem is thatthe minute kids stop performing well
academically is parents startworrying and saying, well, you can't
(20:28):
do all these extracurriculars.You need to study math. You're not
doing what you should do. Andso they take them away as well as
school sometimes. So that isnot the right strategy.
So I guess it begs thequestion then, is there something
that parents can doproactively to determine what learning
mode fits their child?
(20:51):
I mean, I think you can talkto your kids about. You don't have
to use the language, but youcertainly can. I would say the one
caveat to this, and it'sreally important, is that these are
not labels. We are not tryingto say, are you a passenger? Because
a kid could very easilyinternalize that is, well, I guess
I am. And so that's what I amfor life. And so I'm just going to
live up to that label. Right?And so we picked, we sort of developed
(21:14):
these modes with a very strongrecognition that they're very dynamic.
So if you want to talk to yourkids about them, which you very much
can, it's hey, we all move inand out of these modes all the time
there we're making sort of amillion rational decisions in our
big brains about howirrational, sometimes irrational,
whatever. We're makingdecisions about how we show up in
(21:36):
our learning and we do this inwork. We show up at work and you
know, one day we're ready todig in and do all the things we're
asked and we don't mind ifthere's an annoying meeting and you
know, we'll, we'll put ourhead down and do the work and we're
really open mind. And otherdays you come in and you just don't
feel it. Right. So we can movethrough these modes. Metacognition
or this idea of learning tolearn is actually the awareness of
(21:57):
why we're making some of thedecisions we're making and the self
regulation to move it. So ifyou're showing up in passenger mode,
why get curious? So how do youfeel you're showing up? Here are
these moods. How do you feelyou're showing up? If your kid, if
the kid says, well, passenger,because school is stupid and boring.
Like why, what would you, howwould you make it more interesting?
What would you do? What wouldbe something that would make it more
(22:19):
interesting for you? Like makethem the problem solver. But again,
this isn't a judgment on them,it's awareness of that so that they
start developing the skills.All kids can move into all of these
modes all the time. You know,what do you think it would take to
get you from resistor mode?You know, you're really hating everything.
You don't want to go to schoolinto explorer mode. Imagine how good
(22:39):
that's going to feel if youjust are suddenly bursting with the
sense of like possibility.When was the last time you felt that?
You know what, what do we needto do to get you into that mode,
that awareness and reflection?And you can do it. Don't wait until
There's a crisis moment to doit, do it when things are going really
well. I noticed that you didso brilliantly on that test. I saw
you studying hard. I saw youpreparing. What do you think you
(23:02):
did that worked? Anything youdid that didn't work like anything
you would do differently,maybe you studied too hard. You know,
this is a classic achievermode problem. And I have certainly
had this conversation in myhouse. Yeah, you got a great grade,
but, wow, you put a lot intothat. You think you could work 20%
less and get the same outcomeand, you know, all of those reflective
conversation tools using thelanguage of the modes, but again,
(23:25):
just not pigeonholing, notlabeling, not judging as much as
we can, really. An open,curious conversation. Learning is
kind of a fascinating science.You know, for a kid who has a natural
proclivity to science, youcould say, hey, there's a science
of learning how we learn thethings we do. And this is part of
that. You know, you want tolearn about it. And a humanities
(23:45):
kid, you know, a kid who hasgot more interests in humanities,
you could sort of, you know,explain it a different way, but that's.
That. That would be my advice.Rebecca, would you add to that?
No, I think that's great.
You know, I think what's sointeresting about what you just shared
there, Jenny, is the idea thatso many parents, myself, number one
on that list, our default andour instinct is to focus on the negative
(24:07):
as opposed to what you justoffered, which is if something goes
well, you know, why did it gowell? And giving that its due as
well. So learning for me onthat, definitely, when you talk about
having these conversationswith your teens, like, ideally, what
age should this start at ifwe're trying to be proactive and,
you know, prevent potentiallya disengaged child?
(24:32):
So Jenny and I feel stronglythat you can't start soon enough.
And actually, disengagementstarts around third grade, second
and third grade. And we callthe book the disengaged teen because
it really hits a crisis periodin adolescence when kids hit middle
school. But it's perfectlyfine to start looking and talking
(24:55):
about engagement with your kidin upper elementary school, your
fifth grader, your. Because weknow that the minute kids hit middle
school or junior high,depending on your system, secondary
school, they. Theirdisengagement drops. So you do want
to get a handle on theseconversations before that. Ideally.
(25:15):
One of the things. Yeah, no, Iwas just going to say that the reason
for that, and it might be veryobvious, is that we do a pretty good
job A lot of the time inelementary school, recognizing that
we're developing a wholechild, right? So there's sort of
the social stuff, there's theemotional stuff, there's the working
in a group stuff, and there'sthe academic stuff. And suddenly,
(25:37):
very quickly it becomes verysiloed, very regimented and very
broken apart. And really therelationships aren't often as strong
when you get into secondaryschool. And that's really when they
need it just as much as theydid in elementary school. And we
need to be focusing on all ofthose things. And so it's a bit of
a sort of design question. ButI think it's useful for parents to
(25:58):
understand why thatdisengagement is happening. They
feel less seen, they feel moreanonymous. They feel that they're
going to fall through thecracks or no one's going to recognize
their achievement. So a lot ofthat anonymity and feeling that they
can't show that they matter orshow that they have a contribution
to make or sort of, you know,do that, that's what's happening.
(26:18):
So if parents can come in andhelp with some of those or have conversations
about those things, aboutfriendships, as much as you're talking
about math, you know, andabout dynamics, when there's a problem
with a teacher, like, I hatemy teacher. Well, she. You're stuck
with her. Like, deal with it,you know, like, that's a very, like,
tell me why, what do you.What's not happening? What would
(26:39):
you like to see her do, youknow, and then you can help problem
solve. And maybe there'ssomething you do need to talk to
the teacher about when they'rea little bit younger, but all of
that. So I just wanted to putsome color around, kind of why that
disengagement falls off sodramatically when you get to middle
school.
Absolutely. Now you alsoemphasize in the disengaged teen
that learning is how teensexplore the world. How can you, or
(27:03):
what can you suggest toparents in terms of how they can
help their teen connect withlearning as a tool for self discovery?
Well, we have a line in thebook where we say, you know, cuddles
are to infants, whatdiscussion is to teenagers. So teens
sort of make meaning of thisworld they're coming into. And they
(27:25):
are primed neurobiologicallyto start exploring and figuring out
where they, you know, standout in their peer group and where
they fit in and discussion.Just talking with your young person
is the canvas upon which theyare starting to form their own identities
and form, form their sort ofSense of self. And, you know, we
(27:48):
have a whole toolkit in thebook, the second half. The tool of
the book is a. Is a engagementtoolkit for parents. And in chapter
six, there's an entire chapteron suggestions around having discussions
with your teen. Because a lotof parents are like, well, I try.
And all they do is roll theireyes at me or give me one word answers.
And something you just broughtup, Leanne, is one of the first things
(28:09):
we say. We say, you know,don't do the sort of inquisition
of everything they learned atschool and don't start each day and
don't start with the worstsubject. I mean, how would you feel
if you came home and you gotthe, you know, 10th degree about
your worst meeting that youhated that you had to relive? So
it's okay to start with thething that they love if you want
(28:31):
to and just talk about thecontent of their learning and have
them teach you stuff if youdon't remember. Teens love to do
that. They feel knowledgeablein front of their parents and talk
about the content of theirlearning as much as how they're performing
is, you know, one majortakeaway, I would say. But, Jenny,
what, What. What else wouldyou add to that?
(28:54):
Yeah, a few things. I wouldsay let's valorize practice as much
as we do performance, becauseit's the practice that we see, the
growth. So when you see themworking hard, don't ever let that
go by. So we keep talkingabout this, but I want to borrow
a phrase from the earlychildhood folks. Catch them being
good, Right? It's catch thembeing good. It's a really powerful
phrase. You know, catch themwith good habits as they're developing
(29:18):
habits. Help them when you seeworse habits. The other thing I would
add is help them findopportunities to make authentic contributions
anywhere in your family, inyour community, with a neighbor,
you know, that can bebabysitting, that can be, you.
(29:38):
Know, doing the dishes.
Yeah. Raking leaves for theneighbor. I mean, definitely having
chores in the family. I thinkall of these are incredibly important
and not, in my view, and Iknow this is controversial. I do
not pay for chores. I giveallowance or pocket money, as it's
called here. And then we havea set of responsibilities that are
part of being a householdtogether, and those are separate.
I'm not paying you to wash thedishes like you don't, you know,
(30:01):
I'm not getting paid to do allthe things I'm very happy to do as,
you know, a member of thisfamily. But that's not the, that's
not the reward. But I thinkthis, I think young people don't
have as many opportunities tocontribute authentically because
they're very scheduled orthey're, you know, maybe they have
jobs. And that is a veryauthentic contribution. But I think
we just want to. They aretrying to find ways to really come
(30:25):
into themselves and findmeaning in the world and doing that
in a bunch of structured,scaffolded, almost exclusively academic
sports or music ways. Thoseare great. But if that's it, they're
not finding enough ways. So Ithink look for opportunities for
authentic contribution.
The other piece that is socritical in this discussion is really
(30:48):
what's going on in theclassroom with the teacher, the educator.
What would you suggest toparents in terms of how they can
support that teacher and notbecome, you know, the homework police
or a helicopter parent, asmany parents, you know, suffer from
that as well, but more of asupporter to the teacher in the classroom?
(31:09):
Well, one of the things thatwe hear a lot from teachers and our
research back this up, is thateducators want to teach a little
bit differently often and givekids a little bit more freedom and
autonomy to give them chancesto take risks and try, you know,
again, or give them a chanceto find their interests. And they
(31:33):
feel really squished, squishedfrom above by standards and sort
of rules that come down. Theyfeel on high, but also squished from
below from parents who don't,aren't trained educators and are
sending the message, thisdoesn't seem rigorous. This isn't
going to get my kid intocollege. And questioning educators
(31:53):
all the time. And a lot oftimes educators have good ideas on
how to help kids have exploremoments or be in explore mode. And
they've told us they don't doit because parents push back. So,
for example, if you areteaching AP history, it is perfectly
fine to assign not only apractice essay for the AP test, but
(32:16):
also, hey, maybe a certainlesson you could give kids the options
to write a play or do apodcast. That is actually really
creative way to learn thecontent, which is what these young
people need. There'll beplenty of time to practice how to
write an essay. That's a realexample of something an educator
tried and got a lot ofpushback. And so I do think that
(32:36):
we want parents to read thebook and then go to the educators
of their kids with a handoutand say, hey, I'm here. I really
care about my kids engagement.I know you do too. Is there anything
I can do to reinforce at homeand then Begin a dialogue.
(32:58):
On that note, Jenny, I want toask you as well, what would you say
a successful relationship withlearning for a teen in 2025, where
there's so much else going onall the time, what does that look
like?
They care. They're curious.They are willing to push through
(33:25):
learning when it gets hard,which is literally like always, but
they're willing to kind of digin. And I think that's something,
by the way, we can really,really help with, because I think
sometimes when things gettricky for kids with. With learning,
we either solve it for thembecause we can really quickly, maybe
when they're a little bityounger, or we jump to solve, you
know, finding ways to solve itversus just normalizing the experience.
(33:48):
That learning is really hard.And we're going to push through and
we're going to make a plan andwe're going to. I'm here to support
you, but we're going to getthrough this. But part of learning
is just like, kind of requiressome struggle. So I think that sort
of persistence is a reallygood sign. And asking. I honestly
think the number one thing isasking questions. You know, is there
a compliance orientation? Youknow, what did you learn? Nothing.
(34:10):
How was school? Fine. What didyou do? Nothing. What did you learn?
Like, it was stupid, right?That's a more extreme form. But can
they sort of talk about theirlearning if engaged properly? Like
if we're not sort of, youknow, kind of doing that thing where
we're asking, how did youperform? If we're asking about the
learning, can they talk aboutthe learning? That's a really good
(34:30):
sign. And it doesn't have tobe sophisticated and brilliant and
wonderful. It's hopefullygoing to be a little bit messy because
they are literally learninghow to become thinkers and more sophisticated
thinkers. And so it's notalways clean. But, like, again, in
that conversation, catch thembeing good, catch the moments of
brilliance, and don't focus onthe holes in the argument. My poor
(34:53):
husband. My husband and I areboth journalists, and I think we
often kind of jump in andwe're like, that's not logical. You
know, like, here are all theother things you just like. Nope.
Just step back and notice thegood things.
My husband and I are also bothjournalists, so I totally know what
you're talking about there, Jenny.
Rebecca.
They're getting good modelingof critical thinking. So they're
(35:16):
getting something. It's goodto balance. It's good to balance.
Last question to you, Rebecca,because we're almost out of time,
but I did want to ask you. Ifyou could leave one insight from
the Disengaged Teen forparents, what would that be?
The one insight that I think Iwant parents to know is that you
have a lot more power than,you know, actually parents. What
(35:38):
we do at home, and it's notabout expensive extracurriculars
or buying tutors. It's all thestuff we've just talked about is
two times more powerful thansocioeconomic status in terms of
engaging. You're helping yourkids engage in their learning and
become explorers. So we arevery powerful and we just have to
use the time that we have wisely.
(36:00):
Certainly plenty of food forthought. Such an enlightening conversation.
Jenny Anderson and RebeccaWinthrop, authors of the Disengaged
Team, so appreciate your timeand your perspective today. Thank
you so much.
Thank you for having us. Tolearn more about today's podcast,
guest and topic, as well asother parenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com.
Foreign.
Welcome to the Where ParentsTalk podcast.
We help grow better parentsthrough science.
Evidence and the livedexperience of other parents. Learn
how to better navigate themental and physical health of your
tween teen.
Or young adult through provenexpert advice. Here's your host,
(00:23):
Leanne Castellino.
Why is your teen zoning out,burning out, or brushing school off
as pointless? And what can youas parents do to help them rediscover
the joy of learning? Welcometo Where Parents Talk. My name is
Leanne Castellino. Our gueststoday are a pair of guests in fact.
(00:44):
Jenny Anderson is an awardwinning journalist and an author
who spent over a decade at theNew York Times before pioneering
coverage on the science oflearning at Quartz. Her work regularly
appears in Time, the Atlantic,and the New York Times where she
explores the intersection ofeducation, mental health, and parenting.
(01:04):
Jenny is also a mother of twoteen girls. Rebecca Winthrop is a
globally respected educationexpert and director of the center
for Universal Education at theBrookings Institute. Her research
focuses on how to bettersupport children's learning. Rebecca
teaches at GeorgetownUniversity, is an author, and is
(01:25):
a mother of two boys.Together, Jenny and Rebecca are co
authors of the book theDisengaged Helping Kids Learn Better,
Feel Better, and Live Better.Jenny joins us today from London,
England, and Rebecca joins usfrom Washington. Thank you both for
making the time.
(01:45):
Thanks for having us.
Great to be here to set the.
Table for our conversation.Jenny, I'd like to start with you
and ask you if you couldcharacterize the current state of
disengagement when we'retalking about teens.
Yeah, it's pretty bleak. Wefound in our research that when kids
(02:05):
are in elementary schoolaround third grade, about 75% of
them love school. By the timewe get to 10th grade, that has dropped
25%. Now, loving school isn'ta perfect proxy for engagement, but
it's pretty close and it givesus a sense that something's wrong,
something's amiss. And thatdata has actually been pretty consistent
(02:26):
for a long time. Kids havebeen disengaged from learning for
a long time. We can talk abouta lot has changed and we can talk
about that. But that's kind ofthe current landscape you layer on
top of that chronic absentee,chronic absenteeism numbers, which
we can see globally verystrong in the U.S. you know, we know
that we have a problem on our hands.
(02:47):
Rebecca, you study this.Anything in there surprise you in
terms of what the currentstate is showing us?
The thing that I was surprisedat was that the numbers haven't bounced
back tremendously. From a postCovid dip. And again, we're still
(03:08):
gathering data, but it's notgoing in the right direction.
So what brought you twotogether to write a book on this
topic at this time?
So I reached out to Jenny tosay, please, please, please write
this book with me, because Iknew how important parents are to
(03:30):
student engagement, and I knewhow important student engagement
is to kids learning. And I hada personal aha moment as a parent
with my own two boys duringCOVID when I realized I, with all
my expertise, misj judged howengaged my two boys were. I thought
my oldest one was really happyto go to school and was in sixth
grade when Covid hit and, youknow, normally would bop out and
(03:53):
get straight A's, I thought hewas totally engaged. And the minute
his school went to onlinelearning and went past fail, he lost
all motivation, refused totry. And he told me, mom, if it's
not counted, it doesn'tmatter. And I realized he was not
engaged in learning things. Hewas engaged in getting good grades.
And my little one, who Ithought had been very disengaged,
(04:16):
had recently, right beforeCOVID had been diagnosed with dyslexia
and had really internalizedthis idea that he wasn't smart and
not capable and had sort ofgiven up trying. And when Covid hit,
he blossomed. He was actuallyreally engaged in learning. He loved
to learn. He just needed adifferent environment, free from
(04:37):
trying to keep up with hispeers. And I thought, gosh, I really
want to help other parentsunderstand what good learning looks
like. And I knew storytellinghad to be a really important part,
so recruited Jenny. So, Jenny,thank you for saying yes. And over
to you.
Yes, Rebecca is verypersuasive. I said no first, because
(04:58):
writing books is really hard.And. But I'd say there were kind
of two big reasons when I hadshifted from finance journalism into
education journalism, and Istarted going in some interesting
directions with kind of futureschools and neuroscience of infancy
and science of learning. AndI'm a sort of like, crazy curious
(05:19):
learner myself. And so I wasexcited by all of these kind of individual
stories, but I wasn't reallytrying to weave them together in
any comprehensive way. And onething a journalist loves is a hole
in the market. A scoop, so tosay. And when Rebecca proposed this
idea, as I said, I said no.But I saw that there really was a
hole in the market forsomething I desperately wanted myself.
And. And I really wanted forother people as well, which was helping
(05:43):
to support kids with theirlearning. It's a very specific thing.
It's not just emotions whichare incredibly important and factor
into how you learn. But, youknow, there's. There was quite a
bit on that, but this was aquite specific ask. And so I really
love the idea of trying to puttogether a lot of these little things
I was doing into a biggerframework. And I've always loved
(06:05):
translating kind of expertsfor laypeople. I always think of
sort of very busy parents andwhat do they need and how can we
give it to them in a way thatthey can kind of take it and use
it and move forward? Becausepeople are really, really busy. And
so Rebecca's incredibleexpertise was an opportunity to marry
that kind of how do we. Superpractical and tactical and helpful,
(06:26):
but also deeply grounded inresearch and evidence. So we're not
kind of of the moment, butreally something, hopefully that's
enduring.
You make it sound so simple,Jenny and Rebecca. But the fact is,
it's a massive topic.
No, no, it's very difficult.
Yes, it sounds like it, but soworthwhile. Can you take me through
what your approach was totackle something this large with
(06:48):
so many different facetsembedded within it?
I'm happy to talk you throughsort of our research methodology,
which is that we did bothqualitative and quantitative research
from a research perspective,they call that mixed methods. But
basically we started by doinga massive literature review. And
we looked broadly. We lookedat sociology and neuroscience, child
(07:13):
development. We looked atmany, many disciplines. And part
of the problem of academia isthey don't always talk to each other.
We did a very broad sweepthere. We did in depth qualitative
research where we followed 100young people, largely in the U.S.
all different demographicbackgrounds, races, ages, socioeconomic
(07:35):
status, parts of the rural,urban, and some in the uk. Many of
them were over three years.And then we did quantitative research
where Brookings and TranscendEducation nonprofit in the US partnered
up and did some big surveys,surveys of students and their experiences,
over 65,000 students. Andsurveys of parents, over 2,000 parents,
(07:57):
nationally representative. Andthat gave us a lot of information,
too. And then on top of that,we interviewed, I think, close to
100 experts, educators,parents, et cetera. So it was very
in depth.
Yeah, very in depth. It soundslike parsing through that must have
taken quite a bit of time.What was your approach when you were
tackling that piece of it, Jenny?
(08:19):
It was complicated. I mean, asI say, I talk to students a lot about
journalism. And I would saythat, you know, I lived my own advice,
which is rewrite, rewrite,rewrite, rewrite. I Think we rewrote
the book, like, start tofinish numerous times because we
would come up with a frameworkthat we really liked. We came up
with a framework for the fourmodes of learning, which I'm sure
(08:39):
we'll talk about. But thenthere was this question of what to
do with it. And so it was aquite complicated process where we
had one whole different bookidea. And then we switched that we
were really looking at schooldesign. And then we quickly kind
of pivoted to wait. That'sreally interesting, and that research
is really interesting, butlet's focus on parents. That's really
where we want to kind of useour power. And then we really then
(09:04):
played with a lot of differentstructures. I mean, writing is a
very. You know, literallyevery page can be rewritten 100 different
ways. And so we just. It wasvery much. We had some really great
editors along the way, a lotof sort of friends and academics
and experts who came in andhelped us. So it was a truly creative
process that was deeplyuncomfortable for both of us.
(09:26):
Anything in particular in theresearch that you uncovered, either
of you or both of you, thatreally, you know, took you by surprise?
1. One of the thing that I wasmost surprised to see was that the
kids who were deemed, quote,unquote, the problem children, who
we would talk about once wedeveloped the framework as being
(09:47):
in resistor mode, actually hada lot going for. They might be difficult
at the time, not doing theirhomework, disrupting class, not going
to class. But a lot of timesthey could pivot pretty quickly if
given not more restrictions,but more freedom, more leadership
opportunities, more chances todo really interesting extracurriculars
(10:12):
and enrich learningopportunities. In many ways, we in
the education system do theexact opposite when kids start becoming,
quote, unquote, problems. Sothat really surprised me is, you
know, the real potential ofthese kids who are in resistor mode
to really pivot quickly and bepretty great.
Can you take us through what?Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Jenny.
(10:35):
Oh, it's okay. No, we can go.Well, let's keep moving. Yeah, no,
I was just going to.
Say, like, what would you sayto a parent who is wondering why
their child doesn't care aboutschool anymore and all the signs
that they see from that childindicates that they're, you know,
indifferent, apathetic, etc.Etc. What would you say to that parent?
I would say count to 10. It'sreally, really hard when your kid
(10:58):
is resisting school, and itfeels. It can feel like they're sort
of challenging you, that theyare being lazy, that they this is
a sort of act of defiance orthat their potential isn't being
realized. And so what ourresearch uncovered is that that is
not often the case, that thereare a bunch of very complicated or
(11:21):
not even that complicated, butmore complex than it might seem reasons
that kids are disengaging. Sowhat my number one bit of advice
would be like, calm yourselfas much as you can, because it's
really hard. So count to 10and get curious what's going on.
And that curiosity has to comeespecially with teenagers, but even
(11:41):
preteens and even actuallyearly childhood with a lack of judgment.
So you are not judging themfor this resistance, defiance, whatever
you want to call it. You arecurious about what's going on with
them and trying to understandwhy they're showing up and they're
learning the way they are. Andyou're there to support them and
help them and help themmarshal resources and get through
(12:02):
the stuff they need to getthrough. You're kind of part of team
success, but you're not theperson who's going to stand over
them and dish out terribleconsequences in the moment that you
realize that they'redisengaged. There might be consequences
that have to come for nothanding in assignments, for not doing
things. But I think justreally starting with curiosity and
(12:23):
checking your judgment as bestyou can, it can be very hard, though.
Anything to add on that, Rebecca?
No, I think. I think Jennynailed it. One of the things we found
when we were diving into kidswho were really stuck in this resistor
mode is that there was alwaysa reason that they had moved into
that mode. It could bebullying, it could be neurodivergence.
(12:47):
They were, like, literallystruggling and didn't know what was
wrong with them and didn'tfeel that they could tell anybody.
It could be they got behind inschoolwork. A lot of kids just got
behind and got overwhelmed.And then they thought, well, that's
it. We had a kid say, well,that's it. I guess I'm not going
to college. And he'd been an Astudent in middle school, and it
was like, no, no, you can turnthis around. You were fine, 15 years
old. So there's always areason, which is what I think Jenny's
(13:10):
advice is spot on about how touncover that reason. And that's after
you figure that out, then youcan address it and help kids turn
around.
So resistor is one of the fourlearning modes that you identify
in the disengaged teen. Couldyou take us through each of them
and what parents should belooking for and how to manage them.
Jenny, you want to do that?
Rebecca, why don't I describethem and then you can do a couple
(13:33):
tips for each. Does that sound good?
Okay. Yeah.
The modes are Passenger,Achiever, Resistor, and Explorer.
Passenger is as it sounds.These are the kids who are coasting
along, doing the bare minimum,racing through their homework. They
show up often. They get goodgrades because school isn't challenging
enough for them. It may bethat it's too hard. It may be that
it's too easy. We talk aboutsomething called the zone of proximal
(13:54):
development, which is thatsort of learning sweet spot. And
sometimes kids who are kind ofchecked out of their learning are
really kind of under oroverwhelmed, one of the two. So that's
passenger mode. It can be veryfrustrating. Parents often think
of their kids as lazy. That iswhat they will say. They're just,
you know, they're lazy. Itmust. And it's. It feels maybe like
(14:15):
it could be a character thingversus a context and environment
thing. So that's Passenger,Resistor. We talked a little bit
about Resistor. The dubbed theproblem children. We would argue
they are children withproblems. They are withdrawing, they
are acting out. Everybodyknows that there's a problem. There
is no mystery with Resistor.And it's very tough for parents because
(14:35):
they feel very judged both byteachers at times and by other parents
because their kid is just notdoing what they need to be doing.
That's resistor mode. Andachiever mode is in some ways a really,
really tricky mode. These arethe kids who are knocking out of
the park gold stars andeverything put in front of them.
Teachers love them becausethey make them look good because
(14:56):
they're succeeding. They feellike they're doing their job so well.
Parents love them because theyfeel like they're responsible for
the somehow they did somethingright. But these kids can be very
fragile. They can be veryfragile learners. They assign their
self. Can assign their selfworth to their achievements. And
they do not like to take riskswith their learning. And they are
(15:17):
often crowding out a lot ofthe creativity they need to be developing
as a learner. Sort of excitedabout what is out there versus just
getting the right answer. Andso we do oddly worry about achiever
mode more than you might have.That's what I was going to say in
the beginning when you saidwhat surprised you the most? What
surprised me the. Isarticulating and putting some heft
(15:38):
on why. Why to worry aboutthese kids because I think we kind
of know that there's afragility. And we kind of know there's
maybe a cost, but thisresearch really confirmed that there
is. And then Explore Mode isthe peak of the engagement mountain.
It's not Achiever Mode, it'sExplorer mode. And these are kids
who are sort of very driveninternally. It's kind of where curiosity
(16:00):
meets drive. They're able tokind of express what they want and
try to drive the learning toown interests. They can identify
what they care about, they canpush to integrate that into what
they do during their day andinto their learning. And this is
really the skill that is goingto help kids thrive in an age of
AI where AI can do so much forus and can do so many of the things
(16:23):
that maybe Achiever Mode is sokind of good at highlighting, right.
Jumping through the hoops thatwe put in front of them. But Explore
Mode is really quitedifferent. It's both identifying
goals that you care about,being really resilient and going
after them, and being reallyadaptable when things go wrong, which
they always do.
So, Leanne, do you want totalk through some tips on how to.
(16:47):
So for kids in passenger mode,typically in the classroom, these
are the kids asking forclarifying instructions. Do you need
me to do a four paragraphessay or a five paragraph essay?
And then when they get home,parents most often hear the answer
to the question, how wasschool? Fine. Boring. Not much there.
(17:09):
What we found is that there'smany reasons kids end up in passenger
mode. And one of the typicalthings that happens is parents get
anxious that their kid seemsto not care. And then so they start
asking, well, did you do yourhomework? Well, what homework do
you have and when are yougoing to get done and start nagging?
And interestingly, naggingshuts down the problem solving part
(17:33):
of children's brains. There'sbeen incredible research on this
in brain scanners andeverything that when mother's voice
of course, starts naggingtheir children, the problem solving
part of the brain shuts down.So it's almost the exact opposite
thing of what we should do.And what we have in the book is a
whole section on how do youget from the sort of nagging procrastination
(17:56):
loop from hell into what wewould call a learning to learn cycle,
which is oftentimes what willhelp is helping kids in passenger
mode better plan, make betterplans about studying and then leave
it to them to see if they dothe plans. And if they don't do the
plans, you know they're goingto get some feedback. Wow. They didn't
(18:16):
get their homework in, Oops,they got a little bit of a bad grade.
Now, we're not advocating forletting them go off the rails and
fail freshman year of highschool, but, you know, give them
a couple days to see how itgoes. But oftentimes we found kids
really need help breakingthings down and making a plan because
schools are very busy teachingcontent, what to learn, and don't
(18:37):
spend a lot of time teachingstudy skills, organization skills,
or how to learn. So that isone big tip for kids in passenger
mode. Now, for kids inachiever mode who are doing all the
right things but end up being,as Jenny said, quite fragile, oftentimes
what you need to do is givethem small opportunities to take
(18:59):
a risk. You know, if kids inpassenger mode in the classroom ask
for clarity of, you know,instructions, what exactly? What's
the minimum you need me to do?Kids in achiever mode are asking
for the maximum. What do youneed me to do to get an A? What do
I do to get an A? And theyreally do not want to not get an
A. And oftentimes helping themjust take small risks. It could be
(19:23):
on things that aren't thatimportant to them. This idea of productive
struggle and risk taking, it'sokay if you take a risk and it doesn't
work out great. The feelingand the skill of picking yourself
back up really buildsresilience. And then for kids in
resistor mode, again, like wetalked about, one of the sort of
counterintuitive things isthat they really do need something
(19:47):
they're super interested in.So helping them find a spark, helping
them find something thatthey're super interested in, can
help draw them out and reallybuild engagement over time with school.
And there's actually lots ofevidence of if you get kids who are
sort of in resistor mode andyou give them, maybe they love music
(20:08):
and they're part of a band orsomething, once they really start
getting into that, thatinterest and engagement can spill
over to them trying harder inschool itself. In the US at least.
Part of the problem is thatthe minute kids stop performing well
academically is parents startworrying and saying, well, you can't
(20:28):
do all these extracurriculars.You need to study math. You're not
doing what you should do. Andso they take them away as well as
school sometimes. So that isnot the right strategy.
So I guess it begs thequestion then, is there something
that parents can doproactively to determine what learning
mode fits their child?
(20:51):
I mean, I think you can talkto your kids about. You don't have
to use the language, but youcertainly can. I would say the one
caveat to this, and it'sreally important, is that these are
not labels. We are not tryingto say, are you a passenger? Because
a kid could very easilyinternalize that is, well, I guess
I am. And so that's what I amfor life. And so I'm just going to
live up to that label. Right?And so we picked, we sort of developed
(21:14):
these modes with a very strongrecognition that they're very dynamic.
So if you want to talk to yourkids about them, which you very much
can, it's hey, we all move inand out of these modes all the time
there we're making sort of amillion rational decisions in our
big brains about howirrational, sometimes irrational,
whatever. We're makingdecisions about how we show up in
(21:36):
our learning and we do this inwork. We show up at work and you
know, one day we're ready todig in and do all the things we're
asked and we don't mind ifthere's an annoying meeting and you
know, we'll, we'll put ourhead down and do the work and we're
really open mind. And otherdays you come in and you just don't
feel it. Right. So we can movethrough these modes. Metacognition
or this idea of learning tolearn is actually the awareness of
(21:57):
why we're making some of thedecisions we're making and the self
regulation to move it. So ifyou're showing up in passenger mode,
why get curious? So how do youfeel you're showing up? Here are
these moods. How do you feelyou're showing up? If your kid, if
the kid says, well, passenger,because school is stupid and boring.
Like why, what would you, howwould you make it more interesting?
What would you do? What wouldbe something that would make it more
(22:19):
interesting for you? Like makethem the problem solver. But again,
this isn't a judgment on them,it's awareness of that so that they
start developing the skills.All kids can move into all of these
modes all the time. You know,what do you think it would take to
get you from resistor mode?You know, you're really hating everything.
You don't want to go to schoolinto explorer mode. Imagine how good
(22:39):
that's going to feel if youjust are suddenly bursting with the
sense of like possibility.When was the last time you felt that?
You know what, what do we needto do to get you into that mode,
that awareness and reflection?And you can do it. Don't wait until
There's a crisis moment to doit, do it when things are going really
well. I noticed that you didso brilliantly on that test. I saw
you studying hard. I saw youpreparing. What do you think you
(23:02):
did that worked? Anything youdid that didn't work like anything
you would do differently,maybe you studied too hard. You know,
this is a classic achievermode problem. And I have certainly
had this conversation in myhouse. Yeah, you got a great grade,
but, wow, you put a lot intothat. You think you could work 20%
less and get the same outcomeand, you know, all of those reflective
conversation tools using thelanguage of the modes, but again,
(23:25):
just not pigeonholing, notlabeling, not judging as much as
we can, really. An open,curious conversation. Learning is
kind of a fascinating science.You know, for a kid who has a natural
proclivity to science, youcould say, hey, there's a science
of learning how we learn thethings we do. And this is part of
that. You know, you want tolearn about it. And a humanities
(23:45):
kid, you know, a kid who hasgot more interests in humanities,
you could sort of, you know,explain it a different way, but that's.
That. That would be my advice.Rebecca, would you add to that?
No, I think that's great.
You know, I think what's sointeresting about what you just shared
there, Jenny, is the idea thatso many parents, myself, number one
on that list, our default andour instinct is to focus on the negative
(24:07):
as opposed to what you justoffered, which is if something goes
well, you know, why did it gowell? And giving that its due as
well. So learning for me onthat, definitely, when you talk about
having these conversationswith your teens, like, ideally, what
age should this start at ifwe're trying to be proactive and,
you know, prevent potentiallya disengaged child?
(24:32):
So Jenny and I feel stronglythat you can't start soon enough.
And actually, disengagementstarts around third grade, second
and third grade. And we callthe book the disengaged teen because
it really hits a crisis periodin adolescence when kids hit middle
school. But it's perfectlyfine to start looking and talking
(24:55):
about engagement with your kidin upper elementary school, your
fifth grader, your. Because weknow that the minute kids hit middle
school or junior high,depending on your system, secondary
school, they. Theirdisengagement drops. So you do want
to get a handle on theseconversations before that. Ideally.
(25:15):
One of the things. Yeah, no, Iwas just going to say that the reason
for that, and it might be veryobvious, is that we do a pretty good
job A lot of the time inelementary school, recognizing that
we're developing a wholechild, right? So there's sort of
the social stuff, there's theemotional stuff, there's the working
in a group stuff, and there'sthe academic stuff. And suddenly,
(25:37):
very quickly it becomes verysiloed, very regimented and very
broken apart. And really therelationships aren't often as strong
when you get into secondaryschool. And that's really when they
need it just as much as theydid in elementary school. And we
need to be focusing on all ofthose things. And so it's a bit of
a sort of design question. ButI think it's useful for parents to
(25:58):
understand why thatdisengagement is happening. They
feel less seen, they feel moreanonymous. They feel that they're
going to fall through thecracks or no one's going to recognize
their achievement. So a lot ofthat anonymity and feeling that they
can't show that they matter orshow that they have a contribution
to make or sort of, you know,do that, that's what's happening.
(26:18):
So if parents can come in andhelp with some of those or have conversations
about those things, aboutfriendships, as much as you're talking
about math, you know, andabout dynamics, when there's a problem
with a teacher, like, I hatemy teacher. Well, she. You're stuck
with her. Like, deal with it,you know, like, that's a very, like,
tell me why, what do you.What's not happening? What would
(26:39):
you like to see her do, youknow, and then you can help problem
solve. And maybe there'ssomething you do need to talk to
the teacher about when they'rea little bit younger, but all of
that. So I just wanted to putsome color around, kind of why that
disengagement falls off sodramatically when you get to middle
school.
Absolutely. Now you alsoemphasize in the disengaged teen
that learning is how teensexplore the world. How can you, or
(27:03):
what can you suggest toparents in terms of how they can
help their teen connect withlearning as a tool for self discovery?
Well, we have a line in thebook where we say, you know, cuddles
are to infants, whatdiscussion is to teenagers. So teens
sort of make meaning of thisworld they're coming into. And they
(27:25):
are primed neurobiologicallyto start exploring and figuring out
where they, you know, standout in their peer group and where
they fit in and discussion.Just talking with your young person
is the canvas upon which theyare starting to form their own identities
and form, form their sort ofSense of self. And, you know, we
(27:48):
have a whole toolkit in thebook, the second half. The tool of
the book is a. Is a engagementtoolkit for parents. And in chapter
six, there's an entire chapteron suggestions around having discussions
with your teen. Because a lotof parents are like, well, I try.
And all they do is roll theireyes at me or give me one word answers.
And something you just broughtup, Leanne, is one of the first things
(28:09):
we say. We say, you know,don't do the sort of inquisition
of everything they learned atschool and don't start each day and
don't start with the worstsubject. I mean, how would you feel
if you came home and you gotthe, you know, 10th degree about
your worst meeting that youhated that you had to relive? So
it's okay to start with thething that they love if you want
(28:31):
to and just talk about thecontent of their learning and have
them teach you stuff if youdon't remember. Teens love to do
that. They feel knowledgeablein front of their parents and talk
about the content of theirlearning as much as how they're performing
is, you know, one majortakeaway, I would say. But, Jenny,
what, What. What else wouldyou add to that?
(28:54):
Yeah, a few things. I wouldsay let's valorize practice as much
as we do performance, becauseit's the practice that we see, the
growth. So when you see themworking hard, don't ever let that
go by. So we keep talkingabout this, but I want to borrow
a phrase from the earlychildhood folks. Catch them being
good, Right? It's catch thembeing good. It's a really powerful
phrase. You know, catch themwith good habits as they're developing
(29:18):
habits. Help them when you seeworse habits. The other thing I would
add is help them findopportunities to make authentic contributions
anywhere in your family, inyour community, with a neighbor,
you know, that can bebabysitting, that can be, you.
(29:38):
Know, doing the dishes.
Yeah. Raking leaves for theneighbor. I mean, definitely having
chores in the family. I thinkall of these are incredibly important
and not, in my view, and Iknow this is controversial. I do
not pay for chores. I giveallowance or pocket money, as it's
called here. And then we havea set of responsibilities that are
part of being a householdtogether, and those are separate.
I'm not paying you to wash thedishes like you don't, you know,
(30:01):
I'm not getting paid to do allthe things I'm very happy to do as,
you know, a member of thisfamily. But that's not the, that's
not the reward. But I thinkthis, I think young people don't
have as many opportunities tocontribute authentically because
they're very scheduled orthey're, you know, maybe they have
jobs. And that is a veryauthentic contribution. But I think
we just want to. They aretrying to find ways to really come
(30:25):
into themselves and findmeaning in the world and doing that
in a bunch of structured,scaffolded, almost exclusively academic
sports or music ways. Thoseare great. But if that's it, they're
not finding enough ways. So Ithink look for opportunities for
authentic contribution.
The other piece that is socritical in this discussion is really
(30:48):
what's going on in theclassroom with the teacher, the educator.
What would you suggest toparents in terms of how they can
support that teacher and notbecome, you know, the homework police
or a helicopter parent, asmany parents, you know, suffer from
that as well, but more of asupporter to the teacher in the classroom?
(31:09):
Well, one of the things thatwe hear a lot from teachers and our
research back this up, is thateducators want to teach a little
bit differently often and givekids a little bit more freedom and
autonomy to give them chancesto take risks and try, you know,
again, or give them a chanceto find their interests. And they
(31:33):
feel really squished, squishedfrom above by standards and sort
of rules that come down. Theyfeel on high, but also squished from
below from parents who don't,aren't trained educators and are
sending the message, thisdoesn't seem rigorous. This isn't
going to get my kid intocollege. And questioning educators
(31:53):
all the time. And a lot oftimes educators have good ideas on
how to help kids have exploremoments or be in explore mode. And
they've told us they don't doit because parents push back. So,
for example, if you areteaching AP history, it is perfectly
fine to assign not only apractice essay for the AP test, but
(32:16):
also, hey, maybe a certainlesson you could give kids the options
to write a play or do apodcast. That is actually really
creative way to learn thecontent, which is what these young
people need. There'll beplenty of time to practice how to
write an essay. That's a realexample of something an educator
tried and got a lot ofpushback. And so I do think that
(32:36):
we want parents to read thebook and then go to the educators
of their kids with a handoutand say, hey, I'm here. I really
care about my kids engagement.I know you do too. Is there anything
I can do to reinforce at homeand then Begin a dialogue.
(32:58):
On that note, Jenny, I want toask you as well, what would you say
a successful relationship withlearning for a teen in 2025, where
there's so much else going onall the time, what does that look
like?
They care. They're curious.They are willing to push through
(33:25):
learning when it gets hard,which is literally like always, but
they're willing to kind of digin. And I think that's something,
by the way, we can really,really help with, because I think
sometimes when things gettricky for kids with. With learning,
we either solve it for thembecause we can really quickly, maybe
when they're a little bityounger, or we jump to solve, you
know, finding ways to solve itversus just normalizing the experience.
(33:48):
That learning is really hard.And we're going to push through and
we're going to make a plan andwe're going to. I'm here to support
you, but we're going to getthrough this. But part of learning
is just like, kind of requiressome struggle. So I think that sort
of persistence is a reallygood sign. And asking. I honestly
think the number one thing isasking questions. You know, is there
a compliance orientation? Youknow, what did you learn? Nothing.
(34:10):
How was school? Fine. What didyou do? Nothing. What did you learn?
Like, it was stupid, right?That's a more extreme form. But can
they sort of talk about theirlearning if engaged properly? Like
if we're not sort of, youknow, kind of doing that thing where
we're asking, how did youperform? If we're asking about the
learning, can they talk aboutthe learning? That's a really good
(34:30):
sign. And it doesn't have tobe sophisticated and brilliant and
wonderful. It's hopefullygoing to be a little bit messy because
they are literally learninghow to become thinkers and more sophisticated
thinkers. And so it's notalways clean. But, like, again, in
that conversation, catch thembeing good, catch the moments of
brilliance, and don't focus onthe holes in the argument. My poor
(34:53):
husband. My husband and I areboth journalists, and I think we
often kind of jump in andwe're like, that's not logical. You
know, like, here are all theother things you just like. Nope.
Just step back and notice thegood things.
My husband and I are also bothjournalists, so I totally know what
you're talking about there, Jenny.
Rebecca.
They're getting good modelingof critical thinking. So they're
(35:16):
getting something. It's goodto balance. It's good to balance.
Last question to you, Rebecca,because we're almost out of time,
but I did want to ask you. Ifyou could leave one insight from
the Disengaged Teen forparents, what would that be?
The one insight that I think Iwant parents to know is that you
have a lot more power than,you know, actually parents. What
(35:38):
we do at home, and it's notabout expensive extracurriculars
or buying tutors. It's all thestuff we've just talked about is
two times more powerful thansocioeconomic status in terms of
engaging. You're helping yourkids engage in their learning and
become explorers. So we arevery powerful and we just have to
use the time that we have wisely.
(36:00):
Certainly plenty of food forthought. Such an enlightening conversation.
Jenny Anderson and RebeccaWinthrop, authors of the Disengaged
Team, so appreciate your timeand your perspective today. Thank
you so much.
Thank you for having us. Tolearn more about today's podcast,
guest and topic, as well asother parenting themes, visit whereparentstalk.com.
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