October 17, 2024 • 30 mins
Episode 1 - Saskia Rock
This episode's guest is Saskia Rock (I promise no relation – well we think!) whose journey is more twisted than the Tokyo subway system—she’s lived and worked in 3 countries on 3 different continents.
A self-described obsessive with all things Japanese culture, we’re going to find out more about her path to finding her place in the world and what she defines as home
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Episode Transcript
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Daniel Rock (00:06):
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of
wherever I lay my hat, which isa podcast about home and the
concept of home.
I'm really excited to have thisweek's guest, Saskia Rock.
We believe we're not related,even though there is a surnaming
thing, we're pretty sure we'renot related.
But I do think it's an amusingcoincidence to start off with.
(00:28):
Her journey is, and I think theway that we described it, was
more twisted than the Tokyosubway system.
She's lived and worked in threecountries on three different
continents.
A self described obsessive withall things Japanese culture.
We're going to find out a lotmore about her path to finding
her place in the world and whatSaskia thinks of as home.
So welcome Saskia.
(00:50):
And my first question and thankyou for coming on is tell us a
bit about your journey.
I'm really interested tounderstand how you went from,
and I'll get you to describewhere those places were from
traveling across those threecontinents.
Saskia Rock (01:03):
Okay.
Hi, Dan.
So happy to be here.
And I do think we're related,that's why I reached out to you
in the first place all thoseyears ago.
Cause you know, we have such a.
Cool last name as well.
So very happy to be here today.
I love it that you chose thissubject for your podcast as
(01:23):
well.
Cause home is such a, it's sucha stretchable concept.
So it's so different foreveryone.
So let me start with just thislittle self introduction.
So my name is Saskia.
I now live in the United Statesin California, but I was
obviously not born here.
So I was born in a little townin Flanders in Belgium 50 years
(01:48):
ago this year.
That was a big milestone for me.
So I'm wearing this like vintage1974 t shirt.
So I was born in Flanders.
For those of you who know,Belgium has.
Three national languagesalready.
So Dutch, Flemish, French, andGerman.
So when you grow up, as I did inthe Flemish part, so my native
language was Flemish Dutch inschool, you learn the other
(02:11):
ones.
You also learn English.
So when, for me, it became timeto.
Choose what to do at university,what to study at university.
It was like, okay, I lovelanguages.
I love culture.
So what should I choose?
I already speak four languages,right?
And then I thought about aculture that impressed me.
(02:34):
Very much since I was a littlegirl since I saw this series on
TV called Oshin, which was abouta little Japanese girl growing
up during the war in Japan.
So very harsh circumstances, butshe ends up being the CEO of a
supermarket.
And so for me as a little girl,seeing this very different
(02:55):
culture, hearing the language,because in, in Flanders we get,
Subtitles.
It's too expensive to dubeverything right into Dutch.
So we get subtitles.
So you hear the language, yousee these very different people,
very different culture.
And then seeing this soinspirational, voyage this
career path of a little girlstarting from nothing to being
(03:17):
this very influential woman inJapan.
So I was like, okay, I want togo and study Japanese culture
and language.
So that's what I did.
And then when I graduateduniversity, I went to Japan for
the first time.
That was back in 1997.
So very long time ago.
I spent one year in Japan.
Then I came back to Belgiumbecause it was okay.
(03:38):
I've done I've sampled theculture.
I loved it there, I also need tobuild a career.
So I thought my career was inBelgium.
And so for 10 years, I worked asan office manager Worked myself
up to interim director at acompany, but somehow my path, my
career path was always connectedto Japan.
(04:00):
This company asked me to go toJapan to visit their clients to
make sure that we had more salesin Japan.
I kept on like translatingthings and interpreting
sometimes.
And it was always there.
And then back in, in 2006,seven, I started playing
Japanese drums as a hobby.
(04:21):
And that spiraled into, playinggigs for money.
And then I decided to, let'sjust try and see if we can make
a a company out of this.
So we did.
And so for five years, me and mythen partner we played
professionally Japanese drums.
Wow.
Yeah.
And and what happened then islike these companies where we
(04:43):
were basically playing for fun,they started asking me, Oh, you
have a background in Japaneseculture.
Can you please help ouremployees?
Understand why their Japanesemanager sometimes does things
that they don't understand.
So I got roped into teachingcross cultural communication and
(05:05):
listening to, all thesedifferences and frustrations on
both sides.
So I started doing that.
And then as a business owner Irealized that I was missing so
much background in Finance andaccounting.
And so I decided to do an MBA.
And yeah, right at that point Iheard about this MBA in Tokyo,
(05:28):
so I applied, they gave me ascholarship.
And in 2013, I was off, I wentto Tokyo and I was planning to
stay there for the rest of mylife.
So I graduated from the MBA, Igot a job in Japanese HR with
one of the big four companies.
And so I was there happily doingmy thing.
(05:49):
And then I met a man.
It was a good thing.
Honestly, it was a really good
Daniel Rock (05:53):
thing.
It's amazing how many of thesestories start or end with I met
a man or I met a woman.
It's literally, I think so manypeople's triggers as to why
their best laid plans go off ona tangent and diverge somewhere.
Saskia Rock (06:08):
Yes, and the funny thing is, this man is a Japanese
man.
So you would think, okay, I'mnow in the United States.
So a lot of people think when Isay this, Oh, is she married an
American?
And then, she moved with him to,to his hometown in the US.
So that's not the case.
My, my man is Japanese.
He basically, he studied in theUnited States.
(06:28):
He stayed most of his life inthe United States.
And so he happened to be inJapan just when I was there
looking for friends, to go outwith.
And so we basically hit it off.
And he said from the beginningsaid I know that you love it
here in Japan, if you like meand if you plan on staying with
me, then at one point we willhave to go back to the United
(06:50):
States.
Or you will have to go with meto the United States because I
never lived in the U S before.
So this happened in 2018.
He's in, he's in computerscience software development.
So of course, that's why weended up here in San Francisco.
So for the past six years, thisis where I've lived.
And my, Connection with Japanwent away for a little while I
(07:14):
was working in HR here in the U.
S.
with just, local companies andthen Japan Consulting Office
reached out to me It's actuallya belgian company So it's so
funny how these links keepcoming back between where you've
lived where you're from whereyou know Where you're going so A
friend of mine that I graduatedJapanese studies with in
(07:35):
Belgium, he started this companyalmost 20 years ago.
And so when I moved to the U.
S., he said do you want to be arepresentative in the U.
S.?
And so that's what I'm doingright now.
I am consulting, I'm coachingAmericans are, people who live
in the Americas as well asJapanese expats who are here to
how to understand each other howto work better together.
(07:56):
So I'm living the dream rightnow.
I'm really happy,
Daniel Rock (08:00):
which is what it should all be about, right?
It should be, I think in one ofthe things I'm going to explore
with you in a little bit.
Is that kind of how do we definehome?
How https (08:07):
otter.
ai What means to be home for us.
And I think one of the thingsthat I'm interested to ask you a
little bit about is obviouslyyou've lived in three different
countries, very distinctcultures.
It's, and I think, if I look atsometimes the UK, New Zealand,
which is two of the kind of thethree countries I've lived in,
(08:29):
they're different, butculturally it's not a massive
jump and then probably isn't amassive jump to the U S it's
there's a, there's shifts, but Iwould imagine Belgium to Japan,
to the U S is three quite bigcultural shifts.
What.
Which do you consider any one ofthem to be more home than
(08:49):
others?
Or do you have a different fieldthat they inspire a different
feeling of home in you, I thinkwould be a really interesting
thing to understand.
Saskia Rock (08:57):
Yeah, so it's a difficult question.
It's a loaded question, right?
Because you don't want to upsetpeople either.
I think what feels most home tome, right now, if I had to
choose, like, where do you wantto live today?
It would be a very difficultchoice between Japan and the
United States.
I think Japan would still comefirst because I've, I've have so
(09:20):
much interest in the culture.
I still feel like I'm learning,every day.
I just love being in it, but onthe other hand, I've really
loved working and living here inthis small town in, in, in
California.
And my work is now here.
It's not easy to answer thatquestion.
I think for me right now, inthis point of my life, my home
(09:43):
is where my husband is.
Because he gives me that warmfeeling of, I, I belong here.
I'm, I feel at home with you.
I feel safe with you.
We are building a futuretogether.
So that for me is most of, you
Daniel Rock (10:00):
And it's a really interesting question because I
get I was coincidentally, I wentfor a beer last night at a local
bar near me and I was chattingto someone and they asked me a
question about an expat because,I live in Birmingham, Alabama,
but it's not a thriving expatplace.
A lot of people that live inAlabama stay in Alabama.
I said, what, where do you, andwe were talking about this
podcast and it was like, how doexpats, how do you feel like
(10:22):
it's home?
And it's a really interestingone for me because obviously I
was born in the UK.
I lived in the UK for.
22 years, almost 23.
I moved like a month before my23rd birthday to New Zealand and
then stayed in New Zealand foralmost exactly the same length
of time.
And then they were, but I have aBritish passport.
I have a New Zealand passport.
Audio Only - All Participan (10:39):
But I
Daniel Rock (10:40):
don't think I'd ever call myself a New
Zealander, but I would never goback to the UK to live, which is
in its sounds verycontradictory, and so like you
mentioned, you Japan or the USand not.
Belgium, but for me, like if itcomes to sports teams, I support
the English cricket team.
I support the English footballteam or soccer team for our
(11:01):
American viewers.
But I don't consider, and Iconsider myself English or
British, but Britain doesn'tfeel like home to me anymore.
It's the part of my life I leftbehind, 20 odd years ago.
And I would probably settle,similar to what you said, my
settling, if I was to go backright now, where I want to live
today is here, because it'swhere my wife is, it's where my
(11:23):
little girl is, it's where mywife's family is.
It's a lot easier for my familyto get here from Europe than it
is to get to New Zealand fromEurope.
This is a very logical andheartfelt decision, this is
home.
But I feel like my groundingprobably, if I was going to say
where did I see myself goingback to maybe retire or,
Audio Only - All Participa (11:44):
die,
Daniel Rock (11:45):
that's a bit morbid, but would probably be
New Zealand, because that iswhere I feel like I grew up.
And I built that family, I builtmy own family there, friends and
dependent networks.
And so it's a little different.
And I'm.
Just to touch on sort of thethings you said about, Japan
would probably be number one andwhy do you think that is?
Saskia Rock (12:06):
I guess I so understand what you're saying
right now, because I feel thesame I would not choose to go
back to Belgium.
I think as you said I've leftthat behind.
So Japan, yes, I built anetwork.
I have friends, old colleagues,but you could say I, I have the
same back in Belgium, but still,I think it's also being able to
(12:28):
reinvent yourself when you'renot where you were born.
I'm not the same person that Iwas.
And, when you go back peoplethink about, they don't seem to
notice the gap in between whereyou weren't there.
They think of often, andespecially like family or very
(12:49):
old friends, they think of youas, the Saskia that they knew
before you went away, but I'mnot the same person anymore.
I have a very differentworldview.
I think, For most expats, that'sthe case that our curiosity
about the world is like hugecompared to, to, like those
people in Alabama who never leftAlabama, for example, or, it's
(13:09):
the same in Flanders, usuallypeople don't really move very
far.
Also it's a small place, right?
So both my older brother andsister, they live within 10
minutes of driving of my parentshouse, for example.
So people stay very close.
Local politics, local sports arevery important.
And then when I come back, withmy stories about living in close
(13:30):
to San Francisco or, meetingfriends up in Tokyo they can't
really get their head aroundthat.
And so that can, that's hard.
Sometimes like a little bit of alonely feeling because they
listen to your stories, but theycan't really interact.
So I think, as a long termexpat, you feel more at home
where there are other expats aswell.
(13:51):
Or where you're, your new lifeis because you make an
investment right to Be there tobuild a life in that new place.
So you're obviously invested in,in, in doing that.
So I think those are the thingsthat I'm feeling right now.
Daniel Rock (14:06):
Oh, and I totally understand what you're saying.
And if I think about, and I madethe comment because it was in
Alabama and I was in the barlast night.
I grew up in South London.
I grew up and I have a number offriends there who are still 10
minutes from where we went toschool, 10 minutes from where we
live.
And and that's great.
That's their comfortable home.
But touching on the expat thingas well, that's a really
(14:28):
interesting process.
A lot of my friends that I madein New Zealand were also
English.
They were people that had movedfrom the UK to New Zealand.
And a lot of that was because weplayed football or soccer
together, and that's a veryEnglish sport and that's what
you do, but you do, you tend togravitate towards people with
similar feelings, similarinterests.
And that, and one of the thingsI I find interesting is, and
(14:49):
it's something I've wanted toexplore a little bit as we go
through this, is that, it'sprobably more of a psychological
question than anything else, butis that because it keeps you
feeling connected to the placethat you are from, or the place
that you wanted to go to, ratherthan completely cutting that
cord, in that you mentionedbeing around expats, is that a
comfort thing as much asanything else?
(15:10):
Is it because it's maybe harderto integrate into the community?
A new community of people who'venever left there.
They've got their groups offriends that they've had since
they were at school.
And that can be quite hard tobreak into.
I'd love to hear your kind ofexperiences and thoughts on
those based on the two differentplaces that you've lived in as
well.
Saskia Rock (15:26):
I think it's both.
When I was in Japan, of course,speaking Japanese does help.
Make connections with localpeople.
If you don't know the locallanguage, you're already at a
disadvantage.
So for me, it was easier to makelocal connections and I still, I
still talk and interact withthose people, on a daily basis.
I, I have friends that I met inJapan.
(15:46):
30 years ago that I'm still inregular contact with, and I
speak and I write Japanese withthem.
Then the other thing, yes, thereis a level of contact.
And I think that's a really goodexample of how you can find
comfort in talking or, becomingfriendly with other expats
because they have similarexperiences to you.
And of course in Japan, yes,it's easy to talk English,
(16:07):
right?
Although English is not mynative language, right?
It's closer to my native Dutchand it's, the same kind of
cultural background.
So it's easier on a cultural andand a language, base as well to
connect.
So yes, if, if you want to belike just happy, go lucky, go
out, you go out with your expatgroup.
If if you feel like you reallywant to dive into local culture,
(16:29):
you talk to your local friends.
The other thing that you saidthat it might be difficult to
find local friends who havetheir own set group of, friends
or, people that they interactwith.
I feel that more here in theUnited States or in California,
I should say, because the US isso big, right?
(16:49):
I feel that more here inCalifornia than I did in Japan.
And maybe that's one thing thatmaybe you haven't experienced,
but being.
A foreigner in Japan is ofcourse a very different
experience than being aforeigner here in the United
States because here I don'tstand out.
In Japan I stand out.
(17:10):
So it's a good and both a badthing in the good sense like
people are interested.
In you, why did you come toJapan?
What is your background?
Oh, you speak Japanese.
How wonderful.
On the other hand, you getsometimes people who are just
interested in your foreignnessand not so much in the person
that you are.
(17:30):
But here in the U S I don'tstand out.
So people don't really noticethat, that I'm not foreign.
from here and even when I talkpeople think, oh, you must be
from like the East coast orsomething because your accent is
a little bit different.
So I'm not obviously different.
And so I've noticed that I dohave some local friends, we,
we've lived in the sameapartment complex for six years.
(17:51):
So I'm friendly with otherpeople who've been here for a
very long time.
But also the deeper friendshipsare with either people I knew
from before I moved to theUnited States or other expats
who are here in the same area aswell.
Daniel Rock (18:06):
Yeah.
And I think that is somewhatdictatorial.
And as you mentioned before theStates is huge, right?
And it's not one culture.
It's 50 cultures.
In fact, sometimes it's not eventhat it's way more than that,
because,
Audio Only - All Participan (18:18):
you
Daniel Rock (18:18):
know, Birmingham, where I live is in Alabama is
different from if I was to goand go to rural Alabama or, a
different part, the culture isquite different.
And I think that's aninteresting one, because In
California.
No, I don't imagine being fromoverseas would stand out
particularly.
It does a little bit herebecause if I'm in a bar and I'm
(18:39):
talking, the person next to mewithout fail will say, Oh, where
are you from?
And then half the time I say, orthey'll say, are you Australian?
Which is about the mostoffensive thing you can say to
an Englishman who's lived in NewZealand for 20 years.
So I always say that back tohim.
It's that's fine.
So yeah, it's, That is aninteresting one.
But it is, I think it is that totouch on that.
(19:01):
And again, it is that comfortand safety feeling a little bit,
like you path of leastresistance sometimes, right?
It's it's easier for me to dothis than it is.
To go and really push myselfinto a, and you mentioned that
if I want to, be open and let myhair down and natural, you went
out with your expat friends, orif you want to dive into the
culture, you went out with yourJapanese friends.
(19:22):
And that is, it's you don't haveto try as much, right?
You can, you feel like you couldbe yourself.
You feel like you can just,you're not wondering if you're
going to insult someone or dosomething wrong, or, it's, It is
that comfort thing.
Just spinning slightly on topic,but going back to something you
said before, just around home iswhere your husband is, right?
And that's
Audio Only - All Particip (19:41):
stuff
Daniel Rock (19:42):
really like to hear and expand on that a little bit
around what you feel defineshome for you.
Obviously you've mentioned yourhusband, but there are a number
of factors that go into home.
And I think we, we mentionedbefore we started recording, you
had some viewpoints on what ishome.
And so I'd be really interestedto hear a little bit about that.
Saskia Rock (20:01):
Yeah, home is a place where you feel
comfortable, where you feelsafe, where you feel loved,
right?
So maybe like the, so the firstyear that we came here, we're
still, We've been in the samelittle town for six years, but
the first year we were in an inan apartment that was not a
(20:24):
great environment.
There was a lot of noise.
And so I, during that year, itwas very hard for me.
First of all, it was the firstyear we were here, right?
So I was trying to find my, myplace looking for a job, trying
to figure out like all thosethings that are so difficult in
the United States, like healthinsurance and all of those
(20:44):
things,
Daniel Rock (20:45):
buying a car.
If you're, if you don't, buyinga car, it's all
Saskia Rock (20:50):
of that.
And then we were lucky becausemy husband has a history here,
right?
So that was a lucky thing.
So that actually that noise andthen having to deal with
difficult neighbors really.
Made me feel like I'm not, Idon't feel home here.
And so we decided to switchapartments and now this place
that we've been in for five,five plus years now, this really
(21:14):
feels like home.
Even though like we have hadlike bigger apartments open up
in the same complex, I'm like,do I really want to move?
No, I really like it here, Ithink it's also a place that
where you feel safe, where youget used to, like this place is
actually a little bit small, butit's comfy.
So why should we make the moveand then get used to another
(21:36):
place all over again?
So I know it's, it, it soundsfunny, like why wouldn't you
choose to go to a three bedroominstead of a two bedroom, we
feel good here.
So
Daniel Rock (21:46):
yeah.
So for you, home is as much,it's not really a place.
It's the feeling.
Yeah.
And I think that's.
And that's interesting because Ithink I mentioned earlier, like
when I was talking to someoneyesterday they were like home is
where where you go to sleep,it's where you rest.
And I said, and I understood whythey were saying that, but then
(22:06):
I challenged it a little bit.
And I said is it, I travel forwork a lot and I quite often
sleep in different places.
That doesn't make my home.
Oh yeah, but it's where yourbase is.
Okay.
But where is my base?
I've lived in the UK.
I've lived in New Zealand.
I live in the U S is home.
That fleeting is it, can it beswitched at the drop of a hat?
Okay.
I've moved.
And I think what you said therereally encapsulate that you live
(22:29):
somewhere for a year and itnever felt like home because you
never felt comfortable.
You never felt like you werebedded in.
So therefore it was never home.
And I think.
I look at when we first movedhere and we've only been in
Birmingham for seven months orsix and a half months, seven
months.
It's not very long, but for thefirst three months we lived
here, we lived in a furnishedapartment.
(22:50):
It didn't have our stuff in it.
So it's other people'sbelongings to the other people's
utensils and plates.
And so that was never home andit was never, ever felt like
home and we're still rentingnow.
But we've got.
And again, it's a little smallerthan we'd like.
It's a two bedroom place.
It's not a three bedroom place.
My office doubles up as mydaughter's bedroom at the
moment.
(23:11):
So it's not ideal, but thisfeels so much more like home
because we've been able to,we're using our stuff.
We've got the few belongingsthat we bought because we didn't
bring a huge amount of stuff.
We moved countries in suitcases.
But the few belongings we havenow have a place.
And I think that's, it's thathome is as much about things
having their place.
(23:32):
And it's not just you, but it'syour things.
It's my, my books on thatbookshelf over there.
And so therefore I know wherethey are and it feels familiar
and it feels like home and itfeels comfortable.
And when I was having thatconversation yesterday And he
was like it's just where youlive.
And I said not necessarily,because if you don't feel
comfortable where you live, itwon't feel like home, and if
(23:53):
you're, if your home doesn'tfeel safe, for whatever reason,
you've got noisy neighbors thatare difficult.
You're living with someone whois abused, is abusive, or isn't
making you feel safe or makethings difficult for you, then
that won't feel like home.
And I think that's a reallyinteresting concept for me.
And part of the whole reason forthis.
Podcast really is to see whatdifferent people's opinions are.
(24:15):
And I think one of the last oranother question I just want to
touch on that is obviously youmentioned your brother and
sister live 10 minutes from yourparents.
And so one of the things that Ifind interesting about a lot of
people who are expats is familybecause obviously your family,
I'm assuming you don't have any,besides your husband, you don't
(24:37):
have family in California.
No.
So has that changed yourperception of family a little
bit?
Obviously you still have thoseblood ties to the people that
you have at home, but do youfeel like you've had to build
new families?
And does that change yourperception of what is home
because you've had to build yourown network?
Saskia Rock (24:57):
I.
I don't think it changed myperception.
I think, the great thing aboutthis day and age is that I'm on
a zoom call with my parents andmy brother and sometimes my
sister every Sunday.
So thinking back to the firsttime I was in Japan in 1997,
(25:18):
1998, we just had email, and I,if I wanted to call home, it
would cost me like half mysalary,
Daniel Rock (25:23):
yeah.
And you had to get a phone cardand dial the number of the phone
card.
Yes, oh my gosh.
Saskia Rock (25:28):
And that was so expensive.
We I see them every Sunday, justmy brother and my sister, they
will go in person to my parents,right?
And have the Sunday brunch orthe afternoon coffee or, crepes
or whatever.
But, I see them too, just it'sonline.
So I don't feel that removedfrom my family.
I also don't think it haschanged my idea about what
(25:49):
family is.
I'm a firm believer in that you,you build your own family, you
build your own network.
There are friends that I'veknown for 30 years, I think that
I consider as family.
There are some family membersthat I don't consider family so
much, though, family is not forto me.
(26:11):
It's not blood.
It's the relationship that youhave with people and you grow
right together.
Or if you don't, they cease tobe family, maybe.
Daniel Rock (26:20):
Yeah.
And I think what you saidearlier.
Is really descriptive of thatwhen you live overseas and you
don't spend time with people andI do, as someone of a very
similar age to you, I rememberhaving dial up internet and
having to use phone cards andnot being out of video calls
and, spending years not actuallyseeing people like you'd see
(26:44):
photos, there's one, but I'vegot Facebook was what, 2006,
seven, which was like, the firsttime you really got to see
faces.
10 years after, I moved to NewZealand in 2001.
It's a long time between reallyhaving visual contact with
people.
But you do get, if you're nothaving that regular contact, and
I'm very similar, I speak to myparents once or twice a week.
(27:04):
And, I have a granddaughter now,who's a year old.
And they want to see herprobably a lot more than they
want to see me now.
But that's really interesting interms of when you don't see
people and you go back.
So when I've gone back to visitthe UK and met up with friends I
went to school with, in my, andmet new work with my early
twenties.
It is like they've paused you intime, right?
(27:27):
They see you as you were 20 oddyears ago, and I'm very
fortunate now that I get to goback to the UK a few times a
year because of my job and workand travel.
And one of the things that I goand catch up with my friends
from football.
I used to go to Chelsea gameswhen I was a season ticket
holder and so I'll go and watcha game with them most times I
get back if there's a game on.
(27:47):
And it's really interestingbecause that dynamic of that
relationship hasn't changed.
And you do find yourselfslipping back into almost being
the person you were
Audio Only - All Participa (27:56):
when
Daniel Rock (27:56):
you left 20 odd years ago, even though you're
quite different and yourworldviews.
And then my worldview is verydifferent to what it was 25
years ago.
So it is really interesting inseeing that pause in time and of
what, how people see you.
So that's a really interestingviewpoint, I think.
Yeah,
Saskia Rock (28:13):
maybe one other thing that is that I want to say
that builds up on what you justsaid is that the other thing is
that because you live abroad,people are like, wow, what a
life, right?
They think everything iswonderful and everything is
easy.
And, you're so brave for doingall of that.
(28:35):
But, or you're so lucky.
But.
They don't really want to knowabout all the stuff that goes
behind, goes on behind that.
Like when you, so when you startsaying, Oh, but I had this thing
happen, or I had this, theydon't really want to know about
it.
So I found that also veryinteresting to see that with,
some friends that are like, Oh,you're a superstar.
(28:57):
And I'm, and when I go Oh no,it's not like that at all.
Then.
They switch off somehow.
Daniel Rock (29:02):
Yeah, I think that, and that's true, I think.
And it's really interestingbecause there are people that
will never understand why youwould want to move countries.
So why would you do that?
And then there's people say, Oh,you're so brave.
I wish I could do that.
And you're like you could, it'snot that complicated.
And then the other part of thatis when you do make decisions,
people are like why did you dothat?
A lot of people go why would youmove from the UK to New Zealand?
(29:23):
Why would you move from NewZealand to Alabama?
Why?
It's not always that easy toarticulate.
For me, this move is easybecause it's, where my wife and
family and all of that stuff.
It's a logical decision.
New Zealand wasn't New Zealandwas very similar to your story
about, I met a girl in The UKwho was from New Zealand and I
went, Oh, let's give that a go.
And I was meant to be there ayear and 22 years later, I
(29:44):
moved, even though thatrelationship had long gone by
that point, it was that hadbecome home and you fall in love
with the place as much as you dowith the people.
And, but I do think, there's alot of really interesting stuff
to be said about what yousurround yourself with is what
it makes it feel like home.
Thank you so much.
I've really enjoyed thisconversation.
(30:06):
I think it's been a really goodchat and thank you so much for
sharing your story and yourthoughts on home.
So yes, thank you so much.
And for those of you watchingand listening, I'm really
pleased to have you be part ofthe wherever I lay my hat
podcast.
and really excited to have youlisten.
If you'd love to be part of thepodcast, please either go to the
website, which is wherever Ileave my hat.
(30:28):
com.
Or sorry, wherever I lay my hat.
com, or you can email me at Danat wherever I lay my hat.
com.
We'd love to have him moreconversations and more stories
from people.
And again, Saskia, thank you somuch for your time.
It's been great to have you.
Saskia Rock (30:42):
Thank you, Dan.
I really enjoyed this today.
Good luck.
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of
wherever I lay my hat, which isa podcast about home and the
concept of home.
I'm really excited to have thisweek's guest, Saskia Rock.
We believe we're not related,even though there is a surnaming
thing, we're pretty sure we'renot related.
But I do think it's an amusingcoincidence to start off with.
(00:28):
Her journey is, and I think theway that we described it, was
more twisted than the Tokyosubway system.
She's lived and worked in threecountries on three different
continents.
A self described obsessive withall things Japanese culture.
We're going to find out a lotmore about her path to finding
her place in the world and whatSaskia thinks of as home.
So welcome Saskia.
(00:50):
And my first question and thankyou for coming on is tell us a
bit about your journey.
I'm really interested tounderstand how you went from,
and I'll get you to describewhere those places were from
traveling across those threecontinents.
Saskia Rock (01:03):
Okay.
Hi, Dan.
So happy to be here.
And I do think we're related,that's why I reached out to you
in the first place all thoseyears ago.
Cause you know, we have such a.
Cool last name as well.
So very happy to be here today.
I love it that you chose thissubject for your podcast as
(01:23):
well.
Cause home is such a, it's sucha stretchable concept.
So it's so different foreveryone.
So let me start with just thislittle self introduction.
So my name is Saskia.
I now live in the United Statesin California, but I was
obviously not born here.
So I was born in a little townin Flanders in Belgium 50 years
(01:48):
ago this year.
That was a big milestone for me.
So I'm wearing this like vintage1974 t shirt.
So I was born in Flanders.
For those of you who know,Belgium has.
Three national languagesalready.
So Dutch, Flemish, French, andGerman.
So when you grow up, as I did inthe Flemish part, so my native
language was Flemish Dutch inschool, you learn the other
(02:11):
ones.
You also learn English.
So when, for me, it became timeto.
Choose what to do at university,what to study at university.
It was like, okay, I lovelanguages.
I love culture.
So what should I choose?
I already speak four languages,right?
And then I thought about aculture that impressed me.
(02:34):
Very much since I was a littlegirl since I saw this series on
TV called Oshin, which was abouta little Japanese girl growing
up during the war in Japan.
So very harsh circumstances, butshe ends up being the CEO of a
supermarket.
And so for me as a little girl,seeing this very different
(02:55):
culture, hearing the language,because in, in Flanders we get,
Subtitles.
It's too expensive to dubeverything right into Dutch.
So we get subtitles.
So you hear the language, yousee these very different people,
very different culture.
And then seeing this soinspirational, voyage this
career path of a little girlstarting from nothing to being
(03:17):
this very influential woman inJapan.
So I was like, okay, I want togo and study Japanese culture
and language.
So that's what I did.
And then when I graduateduniversity, I went to Japan for
the first time.
That was back in 1997.
So very long time ago.
I spent one year in Japan.
Then I came back to Belgiumbecause it was okay.
(03:38):
I've done I've sampled theculture.
I loved it there, I also need tobuild a career.
So I thought my career was inBelgium.
And so for 10 years, I worked asan office manager Worked myself
up to interim director at acompany, but somehow my path, my
career path was always connectedto Japan.
(04:00):
This company asked me to go toJapan to visit their clients to
make sure that we had more salesin Japan.
I kept on like translatingthings and interpreting
sometimes.
And it was always there.
And then back in, in 2006,seven, I started playing
Japanese drums as a hobby.
(04:21):
And that spiraled into, playinggigs for money.
And then I decided to, let'sjust try and see if we can make
a a company out of this.
So we did.
And so for five years, me and mythen partner we played
professionally Japanese drums.
Wow.
Yeah.
And and what happened then islike these companies where we
(04:43):
were basically playing for fun,they started asking me, Oh, you
have a background in Japaneseculture.
Can you please help ouremployees?
Understand why their Japanesemanager sometimes does things
that they don't understand.
So I got roped into teachingcross cultural communication and
(05:05):
listening to, all thesedifferences and frustrations on
both sides.
So I started doing that.
And then as a business owner Irealized that I was missing so
much background in Finance andaccounting.
And so I decided to do an MBA.
And yeah, right at that point Iheard about this MBA in Tokyo,
(05:28):
so I applied, they gave me ascholarship.
And in 2013, I was off, I wentto Tokyo and I was planning to
stay there for the rest of mylife.
So I graduated from the MBA, Igot a job in Japanese HR with
one of the big four companies.
And so I was there happily doingmy thing.
(05:49):
And then I met a man.
It was a good thing.
Honestly, it was a really good
Daniel Rock (05:53):
thing.
It's amazing how many of thesestories start or end with I met
a man or I met a woman.
It's literally, I think so manypeople's triggers as to why
their best laid plans go off ona tangent and diverge somewhere.
Saskia Rock (06:08):
Yes, and the funny thing is, this man is a Japanese
man.
So you would think, okay, I'mnow in the United States.
So a lot of people think when Isay this, Oh, is she married an
American?
And then, she moved with him to,to his hometown in the US.
So that's not the case.
My, my man is Japanese.
He basically, he studied in theUnited States.
(06:28):
He stayed most of his life inthe United States.
And so he happened to be inJapan just when I was there
looking for friends, to go outwith.
And so we basically hit it off.
And he said from the beginningsaid I know that you love it
here in Japan, if you like meand if you plan on staying with
me, then at one point we willhave to go back to the United
(06:50):
States.
Or you will have to go with meto the United States because I
never lived in the U S before.
So this happened in 2018.
He's in, he's in computerscience software development.
So of course, that's why weended up here in San Francisco.
So for the past six years, thisis where I've lived.
And my, Connection with Japanwent away for a little while I
(07:14):
was working in HR here in the U.
S.
with just, local companies andthen Japan Consulting Office
reached out to me It's actuallya belgian company So it's so
funny how these links keepcoming back between where you've
lived where you're from whereyou know Where you're going so A
friend of mine that I graduatedJapanese studies with in
(07:35):
Belgium, he started this companyalmost 20 years ago.
And so when I moved to the U.
S., he said do you want to be arepresentative in the U.
S.?
And so that's what I'm doingright now.
I am consulting, I'm coachingAmericans are, people who live
in the Americas as well asJapanese expats who are here to
how to understand each other howto work better together.
(07:56):
So I'm living the dream rightnow.
I'm really happy,
Daniel Rock (08:00):
which is what it should all be about, right?
It should be, I think in one ofthe things I'm going to explore
with you in a little bit.
Is that kind of how do we definehome?
How https (08:07):
otter.
ai What means to be home for us.
And I think one of the thingsthat I'm interested to ask you a
little bit about is obviouslyyou've lived in three different
countries, very distinctcultures.
It's, and I think, if I look atsometimes the UK, New Zealand,
which is two of the kind of thethree countries I've lived in,
(08:29):
they're different, butculturally it's not a massive
jump and then probably isn't amassive jump to the U S it's
there's a, there's shifts, but Iwould imagine Belgium to Japan,
to the U S is three quite bigcultural shifts.
What.
Which do you consider any one ofthem to be more home than
(08:49):
others?
Or do you have a different fieldthat they inspire a different
feeling of home in you, I thinkwould be a really interesting
thing to understand.
Saskia Rock (08:57):
Yeah, so it's a difficult question.
It's a loaded question, right?
Because you don't want to upsetpeople either.
I think what feels most home tome, right now, if I had to
choose, like, where do you wantto live today?
It would be a very difficultchoice between Japan and the
United States.
I think Japan would still comefirst because I've, I've have so
(09:20):
much interest in the culture.
I still feel like I'm learning,every day.
I just love being in it, but onthe other hand, I've really
loved working and living here inthis small town in, in, in
California.
And my work is now here.
It's not easy to answer thatquestion.
I think for me right now, inthis point of my life, my home
(09:43):
is where my husband is.
Because he gives me that warmfeeling of, I, I belong here.
I'm, I feel at home with you.
I feel safe with you.
We are building a futuretogether.
So that for me is most of, you
Daniel Rock (10:00):
And it's a really interesting question because I
get I was coincidentally, I wentfor a beer last night at a local
bar near me and I was chattingto someone and they asked me a
question about an expat because,I live in Birmingham, Alabama,
but it's not a thriving expatplace.
A lot of people that live inAlabama stay in Alabama.
I said, what, where do you, andwe were talking about this
podcast and it was like, how doexpats, how do you feel like
(10:22):
it's home?
And it's a really interestingone for me because obviously I
was born in the UK.
I lived in the UK for.
22 years, almost 23.
I moved like a month before my23rd birthday to New Zealand and
then stayed in New Zealand foralmost exactly the same length
of time.
And then they were, but I have aBritish passport.
I have a New Zealand passport.
Audio Only - All Participan (10:39):
But I
Daniel Rock (10:40):
don't think I'd ever call myself a New
Zealander, but I would never goback to the UK to live, which is
in its sounds verycontradictory, and so like you
mentioned, you Japan or the USand not.
Belgium, but for me, like if itcomes to sports teams, I support
the English cricket team.
I support the English footballteam or soccer team for our
(11:01):
American viewers.
But I don't consider, and Iconsider myself English or
British, but Britain doesn'tfeel like home to me anymore.
It's the part of my life I leftbehind, 20 odd years ago.
And I would probably settle,similar to what you said, my
settling, if I was to go backright now, where I want to live
today is here, because it'swhere my wife is, it's where my
(11:23):
little girl is, it's where mywife's family is.
It's a lot easier for my familyto get here from Europe than it
is to get to New Zealand fromEurope.
This is a very logical andheartfelt decision, this is
home.
But I feel like my groundingprobably, if I was going to say
where did I see myself goingback to maybe retire or,
Audio Only - All Participa (11:44):
die,
Daniel Rock (11:45):
that's a bit morbid, but would probably be
New Zealand, because that iswhere I feel like I grew up.
And I built that family, I builtmy own family there, friends and
dependent networks.
And so it's a little different.
And I'm.
Just to touch on sort of thethings you said about, Japan
would probably be number one andwhy do you think that is?
Saskia Rock (12:06):
I guess I so understand what you're saying
right now, because I feel thesame I would not choose to go
back to Belgium.
I think as you said I've leftthat behind.
So Japan, yes, I built anetwork.
I have friends, old colleagues,but you could say I, I have the
same back in Belgium, but still,I think it's also being able to
(12:28):
reinvent yourself when you'renot where you were born.
I'm not the same person that Iwas.
And, when you go back peoplethink about, they don't seem to
notice the gap in between whereyou weren't there.
They think of often, andespecially like family or very
(12:49):
old friends, they think of youas, the Saskia that they knew
before you went away, but I'mnot the same person anymore.
I have a very differentworldview.
I think, For most expats, that'sthe case that our curiosity
about the world is like hugecompared to, to, like those
people in Alabama who never leftAlabama, for example, or, it's
(13:09):
the same in Flanders, usuallypeople don't really move very
far.
Also it's a small place, right?
So both my older brother andsister, they live within 10
minutes of driving of my parentshouse, for example.
So people stay very close.
Local politics, local sports arevery important.
And then when I come back, withmy stories about living in close
(13:30):
to San Francisco or, meetingfriends up in Tokyo they can't
really get their head aroundthat.
And so that can, that's hard.
Sometimes like a little bit of alonely feeling because they
listen to your stories, but theycan't really interact.
So I think, as a long termexpat, you feel more at home
where there are other expats aswell.
(13:51):
Or where you're, your new lifeis because you make an
investment right to Be there tobuild a life in that new place.
So you're obviously invested in,in, in doing that.
So I think those are the thingsthat I'm feeling right now.
Daniel Rock (14:06):
Oh, and I totally understand what you're saying.
And if I think about, and I madethe comment because it was in
Alabama and I was in the barlast night.
I grew up in South London.
I grew up and I have a number offriends there who are still 10
minutes from where we went toschool, 10 minutes from where we
live.
And and that's great.
That's their comfortable home.
But touching on the expat thingas well, that's a really
(14:28):
interesting process.
A lot of my friends that I madein New Zealand were also
English.
They were people that had movedfrom the UK to New Zealand.
And a lot of that was because weplayed football or soccer
together, and that's a veryEnglish sport and that's what
you do, but you do, you tend togravitate towards people with
similar feelings, similarinterests.
And that, and one of the thingsI I find interesting is, and
(14:49):
it's something I've wanted toexplore a little bit as we go
through this, is that, it'sprobably more of a psychological
question than anything else, butis that because it keeps you
feeling connected to the placethat you are from, or the place
that you wanted to go to, ratherthan completely cutting that
cord, in that you mentionedbeing around expats, is that a
comfort thing as much asanything else?
(15:10):
Is it because it's maybe harderto integrate into the community?
A new community of people who'venever left there.
They've got their groups offriends that they've had since
they were at school.
And that can be quite hard tobreak into.
I'd love to hear your kind ofexperiences and thoughts on
those based on the two differentplaces that you've lived in as
well.
Saskia Rock (15:26):
I think it's both.
When I was in Japan, of course,speaking Japanese does help.
Make connections with localpeople.
If you don't know the locallanguage, you're already at a
disadvantage.
So for me, it was easier to makelocal connections and I still, I
still talk and interact withthose people, on a daily basis.
I, I have friends that I met inJapan.
(15:46):
30 years ago that I'm still inregular contact with, and I
speak and I write Japanese withthem.
Then the other thing, yes, thereis a level of contact.
And I think that's a really goodexample of how you can find
comfort in talking or, becomingfriendly with other expats
because they have similarexperiences to you.
And of course in Japan, yes,it's easy to talk English,
(16:07):
right?
Although English is not mynative language, right?
It's closer to my native Dutchand it's, the same kind of
cultural background.
So it's easier on a cultural andand a language, base as well to
connect.
So yes, if, if you want to belike just happy, go lucky, go
out, you go out with your expatgroup.
If if you feel like you reallywant to dive into local culture,
(16:29):
you talk to your local friends.
The other thing that you saidthat it might be difficult to
find local friends who havetheir own set group of, friends
or, people that they interactwith.
I feel that more here in theUnited States or in California,
I should say, because the US isso big, right?
(16:49):
I feel that more here inCalifornia than I did in Japan.
And maybe that's one thing thatmaybe you haven't experienced,
but being.
A foreigner in Japan is ofcourse a very different
experience than being aforeigner here in the United
States because here I don'tstand out.
In Japan I stand out.
(17:10):
So it's a good and both a badthing in the good sense like
people are interested.
In you, why did you come toJapan?
What is your background?
Oh, you speak Japanese.
How wonderful.
On the other hand, you getsometimes people who are just
interested in your foreignnessand not so much in the person
that you are.
(17:30):
But here in the U S I don'tstand out.
So people don't really noticethat, that I'm not foreign.
from here and even when I talkpeople think, oh, you must be
from like the East coast orsomething because your accent is
a little bit different.
So I'm not obviously different.
And so I've noticed that I dohave some local friends, we,
we've lived in the sameapartment complex for six years.
(17:51):
So I'm friendly with otherpeople who've been here for a
very long time.
But also the deeper friendshipsare with either people I knew
from before I moved to theUnited States or other expats
who are here in the same area aswell.
Daniel Rock (18:06):
Yeah.
And I think that is somewhatdictatorial.
And as you mentioned before theStates is huge, right?
And it's not one culture.
It's 50 cultures.
In fact, sometimes it's not eventhat it's way more than that,
because,
Audio Only - All Participan (18:18):
you
Daniel Rock (18:18):
know, Birmingham, where I live is in Alabama is
different from if I was to goand go to rural Alabama or, a
different part, the culture isquite different.
And I think that's aninteresting one, because In
California.
No, I don't imagine being fromoverseas would stand out
particularly.
It does a little bit herebecause if I'm in a bar and I'm
(18:39):
talking, the person next to mewithout fail will say, Oh, where
are you from?
And then half the time I say, orthey'll say, are you Australian?
Which is about the mostoffensive thing you can say to
an Englishman who's lived in NewZealand for 20 years.
So I always say that back tohim.
It's that's fine.
So yeah, it's, That is aninteresting one.
But it is, I think it is that totouch on that.
(19:01):
And again, it is that comfortand safety feeling a little bit,
like you path of leastresistance sometimes, right?
It's it's easier for me to dothis than it is.
To go and really push myselfinto a, and you mentioned that
if I want to, be open and let myhair down and natural, you went
out with your expat friends, orif you want to dive into the
culture, you went out with yourJapanese friends.
(19:22):
And that is, it's you don't haveto try as much, right?
You can, you feel like you couldbe yourself.
You feel like you can just,you're not wondering if you're
going to insult someone or dosomething wrong, or, it's, It is
that comfort thing.
Just spinning slightly on topic,but going back to something you
said before, just around home iswhere your husband is, right?
And that's
Audio Only - All Particip (19:41):
stuff
Daniel Rock (19:42):
really like to hear and expand on that a little bit
around what you feel defineshome for you.
Obviously you've mentioned yourhusband, but there are a number
of factors that go into home.
And I think we, we mentionedbefore we started recording, you
had some viewpoints on what ishome.
And so I'd be really interestedto hear a little bit about that.
Saskia Rock (20:01):
Yeah, home is a place where you feel
comfortable, where you feelsafe, where you feel loved,
right?
So maybe like the, so the firstyear that we came here, we're
still, We've been in the samelittle town for six years, but
the first year we were in an inan apartment that was not a
(20:24):
great environment.
There was a lot of noise.
And so I, during that year, itwas very hard for me.
First of all, it was the firstyear we were here, right?
So I was trying to find my, myplace looking for a job, trying
to figure out like all thosethings that are so difficult in
the United States, like healthinsurance and all of those
(20:44):
things,
Daniel Rock (20:45):
buying a car.
If you're, if you don't, buyinga car, it's all
Saskia Rock (20:50):
of that.
And then we were lucky becausemy husband has a history here,
right?
So that was a lucky thing.
So that actually that noise andthen having to deal with
difficult neighbors really.
Made me feel like I'm not, Idon't feel home here.
And so we decided to switchapartments and now this place
that we've been in for five,five plus years now, this really
(21:14):
feels like home.
Even though like we have hadlike bigger apartments open up
in the same complex, I'm like,do I really want to move?
No, I really like it here, Ithink it's also a place that
where you feel safe, where youget used to, like this place is
actually a little bit small, butit's comfy.
So why should we make the moveand then get used to another
(21:36):
place all over again?
So I know it's, it, it soundsfunny, like why wouldn't you
choose to go to a three bedroominstead of a two bedroom, we
feel good here.
So
Daniel Rock (21:46):
yeah.
So for you, home is as much,it's not really a place.
It's the feeling.
Yeah.
And I think that's.
And that's interesting because Ithink I mentioned earlier, like
when I was talking to someoneyesterday they were like home is
where where you go to sleep,it's where you rest.
And I said, and I understood whythey were saying that, but then
(22:06):
I challenged it a little bit.
And I said is it, I travel forwork a lot and I quite often
sleep in different places.
That doesn't make my home.
Oh yeah, but it's where yourbase is.
Okay.
But where is my base?
I've lived in the UK.
I've lived in New Zealand.
I live in the U S is home.
That fleeting is it, can it beswitched at the drop of a hat?
Okay.
I've moved.
And I think what you said therereally encapsulate that you live
(22:29):
somewhere for a year and itnever felt like home because you
never felt comfortable.
You never felt like you werebedded in.
So therefore it was never home.
And I think.
I look at when we first movedhere and we've only been in
Birmingham for seven months orsix and a half months, seven
months.
It's not very long, but for thefirst three months we lived
here, we lived in a furnishedapartment.
(22:50):
It didn't have our stuff in it.
So it's other people'sbelongings to the other people's
utensils and plates.
And so that was never home andit was never, ever felt like
home and we're still rentingnow.
But we've got.
And again, it's a little smallerthan we'd like.
It's a two bedroom place.
It's not a three bedroom place.
My office doubles up as mydaughter's bedroom at the
moment.
(23:11):
So it's not ideal, but thisfeels so much more like home
because we've been able to,we're using our stuff.
We've got the few belongingsthat we bought because we didn't
bring a huge amount of stuff.
We moved countries in suitcases.
But the few belongings we havenow have a place.
And I think that's, it's thathome is as much about things
having their place.
(23:32):
And it's not just you, but it'syour things.
It's my, my books on thatbookshelf over there.
And so therefore I know wherethey are and it feels familiar
and it feels like home and itfeels comfortable.
And when I was having thatconversation yesterday And he
was like it's just where youlive.
And I said not necessarily,because if you don't feel
comfortable where you live, itwon't feel like home, and if
(23:53):
you're, if your home doesn'tfeel safe, for whatever reason,
you've got noisy neighbors thatare difficult.
You're living with someone whois abused, is abusive, or isn't
making you feel safe or makethings difficult for you, then
that won't feel like home.
And I think that's a reallyinteresting concept for me.
And part of the whole reason forthis.
Podcast really is to see whatdifferent people's opinions are.
(24:15):
And I think one of the last oranother question I just want to
touch on that is obviously youmentioned your brother and
sister live 10 minutes from yourparents.
And so one of the things that Ifind interesting about a lot of
people who are expats is familybecause obviously your family,
I'm assuming you don't have any,besides your husband, you don't
(24:37):
have family in California.
No.
So has that changed yourperception of family a little
bit?
Obviously you still have thoseblood ties to the people that
you have at home, but do youfeel like you've had to build
new families?
And does that change yourperception of what is home
because you've had to build yourown network?
Saskia Rock (24:57):
I.
I don't think it changed myperception.
I think, the great thing aboutthis day and age is that I'm on
a zoom call with my parents andmy brother and sometimes my
sister every Sunday.
So thinking back to the firsttime I was in Japan in 1997,
(25:18):
1998, we just had email, and I,if I wanted to call home, it
would cost me like half mysalary,
Daniel Rock (25:23):
yeah.
And you had to get a phone cardand dial the number of the phone
card.
Yes, oh my gosh.
Saskia Rock (25:28):
And that was so expensive.
We I see them every Sunday, justmy brother and my sister, they
will go in person to my parents,right?
And have the Sunday brunch orthe afternoon coffee or, crepes
or whatever.
But, I see them too, just it'sonline.
So I don't feel that removedfrom my family.
I also don't think it haschanged my idea about what
(25:49):
family is.
I'm a firm believer in that you,you build your own family, you
build your own network.
There are friends that I'veknown for 30 years, I think that
I consider as family.
There are some family membersthat I don't consider family so
much, though, family is not forto me.
(26:11):
It's not blood.
It's the relationship that youhave with people and you grow
right together.
Or if you don't, they cease tobe family, maybe.
Daniel Rock (26:20):
Yeah.
And I think what you saidearlier.
Is really descriptive of thatwhen you live overseas and you
don't spend time with people andI do, as someone of a very
similar age to you, I rememberhaving dial up internet and
having to use phone cards andnot being out of video calls
and, spending years not actuallyseeing people like you'd see
(26:44):
photos, there's one, but I'vegot Facebook was what, 2006,
seven, which was like, the firsttime you really got to see
faces.
10 years after, I moved to NewZealand in 2001.
It's a long time between reallyhaving visual contact with
people.
But you do get, if you're nothaving that regular contact, and
I'm very similar, I speak to myparents once or twice a week.
(27:04):
And, I have a granddaughter now,who's a year old.
And they want to see herprobably a lot more than they
want to see me now.
But that's really interesting interms of when you don't see
people and you go back.
So when I've gone back to visitthe UK and met up with friends I
went to school with, in my, andmet new work with my early
twenties.
It is like they've paused you intime, right?
(27:27):
They see you as you were 20 oddyears ago, and I'm very
fortunate now that I get to goback to the UK a few times a
year because of my job and workand travel.
And one of the things that I goand catch up with my friends
from football.
I used to go to Chelsea gameswhen I was a season ticket
holder and so I'll go and watcha game with them most times I
get back if there's a game on.
(27:47):
And it's really interestingbecause that dynamic of that
relationship hasn't changed.
And you do find yourselfslipping back into almost being
the person you were
Audio Only - All Participa (27:56):
when
Daniel Rock (27:56):
you left 20 odd years ago, even though you're
quite different and yourworldviews.
And then my worldview is verydifferent to what it was 25
years ago.
So it is really interesting inseeing that pause in time and of
what, how people see you.
So that's a really interestingviewpoint, I think.
Yeah,
Saskia Rock (28:13):
maybe one other thing that is that I want to say
that builds up on what you justsaid is that the other thing is
that because you live abroad,people are like, wow, what a
life, right?
They think everything iswonderful and everything is
easy.
And, you're so brave for doingall of that.
(28:35):
But, or you're so lucky.
But.
They don't really want to knowabout all the stuff that goes
behind, goes on behind that.
Like when you, so when you startsaying, Oh, but I had this thing
happen, or I had this, theydon't really want to know about
it.
So I found that also veryinteresting to see that with,
some friends that are like, Oh,you're a superstar.
(28:57):
And I'm, and when I go Oh no,it's not like that at all.
Then.
They switch off somehow.
Daniel Rock (29:02):
Yeah, I think that, and that's true, I think.
And it's really interestingbecause there are people that
will never understand why youwould want to move countries.
So why would you do that?
And then there's people say, Oh,you're so brave.
I wish I could do that.
And you're like you could, it'snot that complicated.
And then the other part of thatis when you do make decisions,
people are like why did you dothat?
A lot of people go why would youmove from the UK to New Zealand?
(29:23):
Why would you move from NewZealand to Alabama?
Why?
It's not always that easy toarticulate.
For me, this move is easybecause it's, where my wife and
family and all of that stuff.
It's a logical decision.
New Zealand wasn't New Zealandwas very similar to your story
about, I met a girl in The UKwho was from New Zealand and I
went, Oh, let's give that a go.
And I was meant to be there ayear and 22 years later, I
(29:44):
moved, even though thatrelationship had long gone by
that point, it was that hadbecome home and you fall in love
with the place as much as you dowith the people.
And, but I do think, there's alot of really interesting stuff
to be said about what yousurround yourself with is what
it makes it feel like home.
Thank you so much.
I've really enjoyed thisconversation.
(30:06):
I think it's been a really goodchat and thank you so much for
sharing your story and yourthoughts on home.
So yes, thank you so much.
And for those of you watchingand listening, I'm really
pleased to have you be part ofthe wherever I lay my hat
podcast.
and really excited to have youlisten.
If you'd love to be part of thepodcast, please either go to the
website, which is wherever Ileave my hat.
(30:28):
com.
Or sorry, wherever I lay my hat.
com, or you can email me at Danat wherever I lay my hat.
com.
We'd love to have him moreconversations and more stories
from people.
And again, Saskia, thank you somuch for your time.
It's been great to have you.
Saskia Rock (30:42):
Thank you, Dan.
I really enjoyed this today.
Good luck.
Thank you.
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