November 13, 2024 • 37 mins
In this episode of 'Wherever I Lay My Hat,' we interview newly published English author Martina Gruppo. Martina discusses her life story, which spans her experiences with a covert narcissist, expat adventures in Italy, France, and Nicaragua, as well as her battles with bereavement and cancer, all of which are detailed in her book 'Hello Flower.' Balancing humor and brutal honesty, Martina shares how these experiences shaped her understanding of what 'home' means. She recounts a vivid journey from her upbringing in Bath, England, through various global travels, and overcoming personal adversities. Martina also reveals her plans to move to Wexford, Ireland, in search of a new sense of home and a dedicated writing space.
You can buy Martina's book "Hello Flower" here.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:44 Martina's Early Life and Travels
04:05 Life in Rome and Relationship Challenges
07:33 Heartbreak and New Beginnings
10:19 Adventures in Nicaragua
15:43 Return to England and Reconnecting with the Past
18:38 A French Connection
19:18 A New Beginning in the UK
20:06 The Narcissist's Manipulation
22:47 Struggles and Realizations
26:48 The Break-In Incident
29:09 Finding a New Home
32:14 Reflections and Moving Forward
35:47 Conclusion and Gratitude
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniel Rock (00:06):
Hello.
Welcome to wherever I lay myhat, which is a podcast about
home.
today's guest is newly publishedEnglish author Martina Grippo
of, and she's the writer ofHello Flower, which you can find
on Amazon.
And I'll include some links tothat in the show notes.
that's her life story detailingthe decade she spent with a
covert narcissist and includesdetails of her expat life in
(00:27):
Italy, France, and Nicaragua, aswell as detailing her
experiences with bereavement andcancer.
Sometimes funny, often selfdeprecating, which I think is
the Englishness and more oftenthan not, brutally honest.
I'm excited to have Martina ontoday to discuss what home means
to her.
So Martina again, thank you somuch for joining us.
Martina (00:44):
Hi.
Daniel Rock (00:45):
love to hear a little bit sort of about you, a
bit of background, kind of howyou found home or not so far.
And obviously a little bit aboutkind of your book and the story
of your life would be great tohear.
Martina (00:56):
Okay, um, it's great to be here.
Thank you so much for having meon and it's lovely to hear an
English accent as well.
I, um, was born in the north ofEngland and raised in the south.
So I still say nothing, but, um,the rest of my accent, you can
pretty much, you know, pointdown to the south of England.
(01:16):
I was lucky.
Daniel Rock (01:18):
is what we're saying.
Martina (01:19):
I don't know.
I quite like going back, youknow, sometimes the people are
so wonderful in the north ofEngland that it's just, you
know, anyway.
Um, I don't want to alienate anypart of anyone here.
So I, I was really, really luckyand I grew up in Bath.
in the south, uh, southwest,beautiful, beautiful city,
(01:40):
totally spoilt for choice.
Um, my mum, who was fromIreland, uh, ensured that we
often went back to Ireland.
My dad died when I was two and ahalf, my birth father, if you
like.
Um, and I was raised by mystepfather, an amazing man,
absolutely fantastic.
But because of the Italianroots, we would often go back to
(02:02):
Italy.
Uh, to visit family and, youknow, people over there.
So travel, you know, in the dayswhen travel was great, you know,
we're talking a long time ago,where you'd get on a plane and
it would be exciting and therewould be boiled sweets in
baskets and that kind of thing,you know, or you were taken up
to the cockpit.
Yes, that's how old I am.
(02:22):
You know, that kind of stuff, itwas just, it was fascinating.
And I kind of, um, Took itnaturally.
You know, I wasn't afraid ofgetting on planes at a time when
most of my classmates weregoing, you know, on holiday to
the beach, Brighton, Blackpool,you know, those kind of places.
It wasn't, or Cornwall, um, itwasn't really considered to be
(02:45):
the thing to go abroad.
It was very, very much at thebeginning.
And I think that sort of ignitessomething in you.
I think when you find travel,when you're very young, that
easy, you, and it certainly, itcertainly, um, stops you being
afraid.
of new things.
You know that you can do thiskind of thing.
(03:07):
You know that you can go there.
I didn't go on skiing holidaysor anything like that, but I was
pretty much determined by thetime I finished school, sort of,
you know, and I got to around,uh, and after my A levels.
that I wanted, really, reallywanted to go and live in Italy.
This was my be all and end all,which is what the book talks
(03:28):
about.
Daniel Rock (03:29):
Okay.
Martina (03:33):
idea at that time, because you have loads of these
ridiculous ideas, was to startup a creche.
And I wanted to be speakingloads of languages and then come
back to Bath and open up aninternational creche.
That was my idea.
Loved kids, loved travel, lovedspeaking languages, even though
I wasn't, you know, there yet.
And of course, life really doessort of twist it all around for
(03:56):
you, doesn't it?
And say, no, actually, this iswhat I'm going to do.
Daniel Rock (03:59):
very
Martina (04:00):
not coming back, you're not having kids, and, you know,
this is how we're going to workit out for you.
Daniel Rock (04:05):
of
Martina (04:05):
Anyway, when I was in Rome
Daniel Rock (04:07):
we
Martina (04:07):
time, um,
Daniel Rock (04:09):
We
Martina (04:10):
supposed to be in Rome.
I was actually supposed to go toFrance initially.
That fell through and then,
Daniel Rock (04:15):
It's
Martina (04:16):
I
Daniel Rock (04:16):
loud.
It's
Martina (04:17):
something like that, fate, destiny, or just bad luck
made me end up in Rome and I,um, which was good because I was
with an abusive Boyfriend inback in England, so it was good
to get out, you know, and to dosomething different physically
abusive And when I went to Romeit felt as though I had grown up
(04:41):
again You know it
Daniel Rock (04:42):
Yeah.
Martina (04:46):
fun and that city in the late 80s Was phenomenal it
was it's nothing like it is nowYou know, it's very sanitized
and, and generic and that kindof thing.
But oh my goodness, back then itwas perfect stomping ground to
fall in love.
And along he came eventually,and I felt head over heels in
(05:09):
love.
This was the person I was goingto be with for the rest of my
life.
Only, um, yes.
So it, it was a very, verydifficult relationship.
No, that's not true at all.
Sorry.
I just started to go, started tosay, I'm really sorry.
I'm losing it.
I was just thinking about himthen, and then I thought, no,
(05:30):
no.
Initially, he was the be all andend all, and I felt that, uh, we
had the most incrediblelifestyle, or it seemed as
though we had, you know, fromthe outside.
And when you're young, And inyour twenties, I mean,
everything works, doesn't it?
It doesn't really matter whatyou do or how you do it.
(05:50):
And you believe so solidly thateverything you're doing is
right.
Daniel Rock (05:55):
we
Martina (05:56):
You know, you have,
Daniel Rock (05:57):
life experience to tell you otherwise.
Right.
And that's the thing is, ifyou've not experienced different
things, you don't know whetherthis is normal or not normal
because you're only operatewithin your own frame of
reference and your ownexperiences, right?
So that it's, you hear a lot ofpeople in their twenties and
stuff like, Oh, you know, I gotthis wrong.
Well, of course you do.
That's, that's life, right?
(06:18):
You get things wrong.
That's how you learn new things.
You know, mistakes
Martina (06:21):
also why, it's also why when they, you know, I wouldn't
want to go back there, but Iwould want to go back there
knowing what I know now, youknow, that old thing that
everybody says, I mean, I, youknow, I envy their, their youth
and their looks and things likethat.
And you wish back then that youknew what you actually were
like, but.
I had a pretty good time.
I can't complain.
(06:42):
It was amazing, you know, and Ireally did.
But even because I have thisinbuilt thing in me that I, I
had, I needed, I needed adegree.
I needed a career path.
I needed to find something.
It's all very well flitting frompart time job to part time job.
But at some point, even if Ididn't want to grow up, I wanted
(07:03):
to, well, I described it in thebook as I wanted to have
choices.
That's what I wanted.
Daniel Rock (07:09):
Okay.
So, so, so,
Martina (07:10):
And he didn't want to come with me.
Daniel Rock (07:12):
so, so,
Martina (07:12):
Nah.
Daniel Rock (07:12):
so, so, so, so,
Martina (07:13):
He thought, no, this isn't for me.
That's, that's, you know, toomuch like growing up.
But at the time,
Daniel Rock (07:20):
so, so, so,
Martina (07:21):
figured that that was all my fault.
Daniel Rock (07:22):
so, so, so,
Martina (07:23):
So I thought, oh no,
Daniel Rock (07:24):
so,
Martina (07:24):
know, I've, I've got this person
Daniel Rock (07:26):
so,
Martina (07:27):
and I'm now deciding to go off and do a university
degree and he's not coming withme.
I've ruined us.
Daniel Rock (07:32):
so, so, so
Martina (07:33):
So, I buried my head in the sand for about 20 years and
I went off, I was heartbroken.
It was awful.
You know, the first few years,and of course, you know, I'm
going to say this to you, but asa woman, what you do as a
female, you just think.
I really screwed that up.
I really messed that up.
You know, that was my one chanceat love and happiness
Daniel Rock (07:56):
like
Martina (07:57):
and it, you know, and it never, and it never
Daniel Rock (07:59):
not.
It's not.
So
Martina (08:01):
So I spent
Daniel Rock (08:02):
right
Martina (08:02):
next,
Daniel Rock (08:03):
I
Martina (08:03):
was living back in England.
Daniel Rock (08:05):
in the next,
Martina (08:06):
And I did what I think was expected of me.
Daniel Rock (08:10):
six
Martina (08:10):
married a,
Daniel Rock (08:11):
two,
Martina (08:12):
an okay ish
Daniel Rock (08:13):
remember the
Martina (08:14):
boy.
I graduated.
I got a reasonable job.
Daniel Rock (08:18):
just
Martina (08:18):
And I just remember painting once in, in this new,
you know, new house that webought and we were doing up and
things like that.
I remember painting the wallsand my friend, one of my best
friends was in Australiatraveling around all day.
Or Southeast Asia, and I couldalmost feel this, this feeling
inside of real, is this it?
(08:40):
You know, and I think when we,when we force ourselves to
settle down, that's when thingsYou know, the cracks start to
appear
Daniel Rock (08:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Martina (09:01):
really in the middle of Surrey, Greenbelt at 30.
And now I look back and I'mlike, Oh my God, I was only like
30, you know, 30.
To something like that and Ifeel so young, you know, when I
look back and I think of my age,but at the time I was just, uh,
yeah, I think I, this is awful.
(09:22):
I didn't do anything because,you know.
Again, stick it out.
Let's see what's going tohappen.
Lots of things happened, um,affairs on his side and
infertility.
So, the marriage came to an endand I was heartbroken because I
wanted children more thananything.
Daniel Rock (09:41):
Yeah,
Martina (09:41):
But I remember that I was sorting out a room in that
particular house and painting itfor a lodger to move in, you
know, getting ready.
And I remember a friend of mine,he came around and he said to
me,
Daniel Rock (09:54):
Yeah.
Martina (10:01):
rented out.
He said, there is literallynothing stopping, stopping you.
And I thought, yeah, actually,
Daniel Rock (10:07):
Yeah.
Martina (10:14):
um, learn that, you know, I got the TESOL, uh,
teaching English to studentswith other languages.
I started looking around atvolunteering positions because
for me, the be all and end allwould be being in a place where
there were children.
Daniel Rock (10:29):
Mm
Martina (10:29):
And originally I was thinking about going to the
Burmese border.
But my dad was, you know, mylovely dad, he was like, yeah,
it's a bit dangerous at themoment.
So, so Nicaragua was the otherone, teaching.
Daniel Rock (10:44):
sound that much less dangerous in my head than
that.
Martina (10:50):
Yeah, there's been a revolution and things like that.
But I was just like, you know,and again, you're there and
you're just thinking, Oh, I'llbe all right.
And I'll find a way and I'll,you know, and I'll make this
happen.
And much of everything within.
Six months I had thequalification, I'd set up a
thing that I was going to thiscloud forest in the Nicaraguan,
(11:11):
northern Nicaraguan mountains,and, um, yeah, there's a really,
there's a really funny bit inthe book, and I've been quoted
it before in magazines andthings like that.
While I was hanging out at thechicken bus on my way up through
this kind of jungle, you know,in the middle of nowhere, with
(11:32):
petrol cans and live chickensand people staring and not
understanding a word of thelanguage, there was a part of me
that was just going, God, Icould have gone to bloody France
or Spain.
You know, why did I choose?
Sorry to use this, this is veryItalian expression, but, you
know, why did I choose the arseend of nowhere to come and do
(11:56):
this?
And You talk about home.
I don't know.
There was a couple of thingsthat happened while I was in
Nicaragua.
The very first evening Iarrived, I put my hand into the
breeze block building room thatthey showed me into with the
wooden shutters and the mosquitonet, and I went to turn the
light on.
(12:16):
Massive rookie mistake.
No electricity, obviously.
Daniel Rock (12:20):
Yeah.
Martina (12:20):
And I sat on the bed and cried.
And then I had a word withmyself and just said, no,
you've, you decided to comehere, now you work it out.
You, you, you know, give it acouple of weeks.
You've got nobody to blame butyourself.
So, you know, do it.
I think I was there for fivemonths.
(12:40):
Initially, and then I gotdysentery and I felt my best
friend came to see me and thenshe flew home and I was homesick
and I had a dream, I had areally vivid dream that night
about going, you know, goingback home and I dreamt I was
walking down the high street in,you know, suburban Surrey and I
met, you know, I could see otherpeople that I knew then.
(13:03):
I was like, Oh, hi, how are you?
And then they were verydismissive, like, Oh yeah, I'm
fine.
You know, I've got, I've gotstuff to do.
Daniel Rock (13:09):
I
Martina (13:10):
woke up the next morning going, no, you can't go
back.
Nobody's interested.
Everybody's getting on withtheir own lives.
You need to sort of createsomething here.
So I did.
I created a cottage industrywith the coffee farmers.
Daniel Rock (13:23):
Well,
Martina (13:24):
that sort of led to, uh, uh, from, well, if I went
over there, I think it was in
Daniel Rock (13:30):
what I
Martina (13:32):
uh, gosh, I can't remember the exact years, but I
ran
Daniel Rock (13:37):
to thank
Martina (13:37):
own,
Daniel Rock (13:38):
for joining
Martina (13:39):
entirely ethical coffee business, I was the one who was
shipping, I cut out the middleman
Daniel Rock (13:43):
that we
Martina (13:44):
and
Daniel Rock (13:45):
are
Martina (13:45):
to the farmers, built schools,
Daniel Rock (13:47):
to go
Martina (13:48):
did that sort of stuff, you know, so I was going,
coming, going, coming backwardsand forwards to Nicaragua for
probably the best part of 10years, I think,
Daniel Rock (13:57):
And I think if I look at that, and this is a
theme that comes up quite oftenwhen I'm talking to people about
this is that it's the what ifmoments, right?
It's that do I decide to stay?
Do I go?
Do I not?
Do I take a risk?
Don't I take a risk?
Not every decision, but mostdecisions are reversible.
(14:19):
It doesn't, if it doesn't work,I can come home.
If it doesn't work, I can dothis,
Martina (14:23):
yeah.
Daniel Rock (14:24):
you know, I think people that travel or people
that live overseas, I think likewe have it.
That's often the thing, right?
That's the driving force.
It's that well, if it doesn'twork, I can, I can come back.
But if I don't try, I'm gonnaregret not trying.
I'm gonna, there's gonna besomething that's gonna eat away
at me if I don't try the thing.
Martina (14:42):
Yeah, exactly that.
And I think that you're in onecamp or the other.
You're in, either in the campwhere, right, I'm going to stick
this out, I'm going to make thishappen, I'm going to do this, or
there is another camp, it'slike, oh my god, you know, I
remember some people expressedan interest in coming over
there, and they said, you know,how do you wash?
(15:03):
And I was like, oh god.
I can't explain to you this, youshouldn't come to a cloud
forest, you know, and it wasvery, it was very sort of, they
weren't friends of mine, theywere people who were interested
in volunteering and I thought,if those are your questions
already, then there is somethingthat I'm not sure I can, you
know, I'm not sure it'd be agood idea for you to come and
(15:24):
have a cold bucket shower in themiddle of a cloud forest.
I loved it.
I mean, I really, really lovedit.
And I, you know, moved aroundquite a lot and met a lot of
people.
And I had some really lousytimes,
Daniel Rock (15:39):
Mm
Martina (15:39):
difficult times.
Anyway, that's a whole otherconversation.
I came back, um, And, but it wasduring my time, let's say, going
backwards and forwards betweenNicaragua that the, uh, what
should we call him?
Okay, well, the original biglove of my life came back into
(16:02):
my life, and
Daniel Rock (16:04):
uh,
Martina (16:04):
in Nicaragua
Daniel Rock (16:06):
reference reference
Martina (16:07):
you know, sorting out coffee and things like that, and
this email came through.
Daniel Rock (16:11):
just
Martina (16:12):
And I, I think my legs just gave away
Daniel Rock (16:15):
uh, yeah.
Yeah.
What?
Martina (16:16):
I failed miserably in relationships.
I wasn't, you know, happy and Icouldn't, you know, internet
dating had become this reallyhuge thing.
I just couldn't get my headaround any of it.
And I didn't like it.
And
Daniel Rock (16:30):
Transcript.
Martina (16:32):
met somebody, but I wasn't in the right frame of
mind for that person.
So I probably lost him.
He's probably.
Daniel Rock (16:37):
Transcript.
Martina (16:39):
break,
Daniel Rock (16:40):
So,
Martina (16:43):
a lot of baggage.
Um, but I, I then I don't know.
When I saw the email, I thinkmy, I was, I looked at upon it
as this is my opportunity now.
This is my turn to be happy, tohave what everybody else is
talking about.
I couldn't have been more wrong.
I really couldn't.
Daniel Rock (17:04):
And I think that talks to that, you know, and I
don't want to put, I'mdefinitely not in any kind of
council or psychologist in this,but it, it's that the one that
got away piece, you know, thatwhole, Oh, I get a second shot.
I get a second chance.
I get another go at this.
And I think, you know, there's,there's always going to be
temptation to that no matterwhat happens in
Martina (17:23):
And you know what?
Yeah, but on that exact thing,the guy that I've met before, on
the dating thing, where we werenot in the right place to be
with each other.
I'm almost pleased it ended.
Because if I had been with himand I had given it a go and then
he'd come out of nowhere.
(17:45):
Sorry, let me just put that adifferent way.
And then he crawled out fromunder his rock and sent me an
email.
Okay, I would have dropped theother guy at a moment's notice.
to go with him.
So I'm almost, you know, pleasedthat it didn't happen that way
round.
Although exactly what you'vejust said, um, but it works so
(18:07):
against me because that need tomake it happen meant that I
stuck it out for 11 years.
Daniel Rock (18:13):
Yeah.
Martina (18:14):
though it nearly destroyed me.
So I mean, and then crikey, thenwe lived in quite a few
countries.
Oh, I forgot to tell you thatall of this is happening.
I sold my house back in Englandtalking about home and where
home is.
Daniel Rock (18:27):
this.
Martina (18:28):
know that this is, I love the idea of, of
Daniel Rock (18:31):
found
Martina (18:32):
you know, what is the idea of a home?
But even when I came back fromNicaragua after I'd been there
for a year, I lived with aFrench girl.
Daniel Rock (18:38):
word translation
Martina (18:40):
And we spoke in French all, all, all the time.
She didn't speak English and mySpanish wasn't good enough at
that point.
And so we spoke in French allthe time and I loved how
patriotic she was.
And, you know, and this is inthe sound bonkers.
I sold up my house in Surrey.
Daniel Rock (18:56):
chat forum?
Uh
Martina (19:02):
And I just figured, you know, and I, and I fell in love
with it, it was a convertedstable.
It was amazing.
And it was probably the worstvillage I could have bought it
in because it was in the middleof nowhere.
But I
Daniel Rock (19:13):
uh the
Martina (19:16):
You know, this is the right thing to do.
And I wanted to invest my moneyinto solid bricks and mortar and
not just, you know, Um, yeah,anyway, so we got back together
and this time he was willing tomove to the UK to be with me.
So we moved, I found us a place,and, um, this was after a year
(19:40):
of us being together and megoing backwards and forwards to
Italy.
And he didn't have very much inItaly, which should have been a
massive, walling sign.
So I took on the responsibilityof making sure that everything
was going to be amazing for thetwo of us.
And that meant finding a home,and that meant, um, Me being the
(20:00):
only one working because, um, I,you know,
Daniel Rock (20:05):
who
Martina (20:07):
are very, very good narcissists
Daniel Rock (20:08):
colleague
Martina (20:10):
at making you feel as though
Daniel Rock (20:13):
ho.
Martina (20:15):
of their fault.
Nothing is their fault.
It's, you know, they'rewaterproof.
Daniel Rock (20:20):
Well, that's
Martina (20:21):
So
Daniel Rock (20:21):
problems with narcissists, that they actually
believe that.
It's not even that they don'tnecessarily, it's not even
necessarily at that point, afake thing that are putting on,
they have that long held beliefthat, well, they're right.
And everyone else has to that.
And it's that whole
Martina (20:37):
yeah, do you know, yeah, that's a really tough one
because, because I'm notcorrecting you.
Okay.
You're right.
Thank you.
Daniel Rock (20:48):
No
Martina (20:48):
No, no, no.
You do have an inherent beliefthat they're right, but that
almost sounds, and you'reprobably not, as if they're
being excused for the way thatthey are.
Daniel Rock (20:59):
not
Martina (20:59):
Oh, you're not.
Daniel Rock (21:00):
No,
Martina (21:00):
Okay,
Daniel Rock (21:01):
not excusing that at all.
I think, you know, I think itdoesn't matter that they think
they're right, then it stillneeds to be a level of empathy
to accept that other people'sopinions matter.
And they,
Martina (21:12):
it.
Daniel Rock (21:13):
they're not incapable of those feelings,
right?
And I think that's the thing.
And I think is there's a, youknow, you can get into the whole
debate where, you know, withpsychopaths, sociopath and
empathy and the ability to feelit and present yourself as
something that you're not.
I think that just because youfeel you feel something, Doesn't
(21:34):
make it right.
And certainly the impact you youare able to observe the impact
your behavior is having onsomebody else, regardless as
Martina (21:41):
Yeah.
Daniel Rock (21:41):
you think you're right or not.
And if you're causing somebodyelse pain, you have to examine
that.
And I think that's where thatdoesn't happen.
And that makes them.
the intensely evil part of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Martina (22:01):
kinder and would share toys and things like that if you
teach it properly, but, um, it'sexactly what you said, that
there's no accountability, butthen add into that mix, because
he was nasty.
I mean, not initially, but hewas so good at what he was
doing.
The manipulation was so vile andintense that I took everything
(22:24):
on.
This is my fault.
This is entirely my fault.
And all you had to do was say,look, I'm here for you.
I've come all the way over.
I've left my country.
I'm here for you.
And I was straight back to whereI'd been 25 years earlier, you
know, and
Daniel Rock (22:43):
Yes.
Martina (22:44):
I don't know, I, I,
Daniel Rock (22:46):
middle
Martina (22:47):
We were together for 11 years.
We got married, stupidly.
Um, and in that time, I did havebreast cancer and went through
chemo.
And after that, I think he thenbecame very fed up, even though
I was a great wingy man, becausethis is a guy who probably in 11
years worked one.
Daniel Rock (23:05):
the Russian
Martina (23:07):
if you added all the little bits.
Daniel Rock (23:08):
Russian civilians are
Martina (23:11):
And
Daniel Rock (23:11):
shot
Martina (23:12):
the cancer, I mean, this is how good it was.
We need to move back to Italywhere the food is good for you.
Sunshine is great.
Yeah.
No, he wanted to move back toItaly because he was fed up with
England.
He'd done England and
Daniel Rock (23:30):
Yeah.
Martina (23:33):
He, he just split it off and left me to pack up.
And I mean, it beggars beliefhow many times.
in the time that I was with him.
It was me packing boxes andmoving yet again, and again, and
again.
Since I've been with him, and Icould say I'm not an authority
on Italians, but I've prettymuch lived in the South, in the
(23:55):
Middle, and in the North.
And I did keep moving because Iwas, you know,
Daniel Rock (24:01):
Not
Martina (24:02):
had to, to, to look for work or to, you know, Oh, it
was,
Daniel Rock (24:06):
questions.
Martina (24:06):
in the book the way that, you know, once again, and
there was even,
Daniel Rock (24:10):
I
Martina (24:11):
I won't spoil that, but
Daniel Rock (24:12):
Can you say
Martina (24:14):
don't think I've ever been afraid of moving.
And then my dad died, my mum hadalready died, and then my dad
died in 2020.
And by now I was, you know, awreck, you know, he, because
they are a bit like, I don'tknow if you've ever read any of
Harry Potter,
Daniel Rock (24:30):
Yeah.
Martina (24:31):
in Harry Potter, the, the dementors suck the energy
Daniel Rock (24:34):
Yeah.
Martina (24:34):
people.
Daniel Rock (24:35):
hmm.
Martina (24:36):
That's what they are.
That's exactly what they are.
Daniel Rock (24:39):
what
Martina (24:39):
almost like a,
Daniel Rock (24:40):
trying
Martina (24:41):
must tell you, Daniel, I've got a sub stack page.
Okay.
You don't have to read anythingor anything like that on it, but
there is a,
Daniel Rock (24:48):
across
Martina (24:49):
there is a blog post I've written called take the
photo.
Daniel Rock (24:53):
Yeah.
Martina (25:07):
for everything, um, who's sadly also gone.
And.
In that video, there is, it'sonly three minutes, three or
four minutes or something likethat.
It shows exactly what anarcissist does to you, and it
shows how I created a home.
Okay, so there was this, youknow, this, this sort of villa
(25:30):
on its own.
It was all tumbled down, hadn'tbeen touched in 50 odd years,
and I was so excited.
I couldn't wait to get my handson it.
I couldn't wait to start doingthings.
And I came in.
And you know, I did it.
And in the video, it's as thoughsomebody's turned the light back
on in me when you see it in Julyof this year and you see how
(25:51):
I've made a home.
Now I'm going to give you theshocker.
Okay.
Well, so that was, I left himin, um, 2022.
at the beginning of 2022.
Um, I stayed here in the housebecause I have my really big dog
and I, well, that was his bigdog, he didn't want the dog.
And I looked after him until um,he died last year.
(26:14):
And I think I've pretty much gotto the end of my tether
generally the way of life herebecause it's not all it's
cracked up to be by any stretchof the imagination.
Daniel Rock (26:23):
is right.
I think that's everywhere yougo.
There's a compromise, right?
And I think that's one of thethings I want to explore with
you on that, right?
Is it's if it doesn't feel likehome.
All the things that would be aminor irritant somewhere else
become a major irritant whereyou are.
Martina (26:40):
Well, the language, I speak the language, but people
are out to get you here.
literally out to get you.
So in July, I decided that Iwanted to sell up.
Madness, that my, my house isbeautiful.
I have it exactly the way Iwanted it.
And I've always been okay aboutit.
(27:01):
And I've run a little bed andbreakfast out of here and
everything else until about amonth ago when I was in bed and
somebody was drilling holes inthe French window trying to get
in.
Daniel Rock (27:14):
Yeah, that's not good.
That's an instant way to notfeel safe where you are.
Martina (27:20):
So I woke up to find an intruder.
Just about to put a wire throughthe door and open the thing and
everything changed for me.
Everything in that instance.
Before, I, you know, I thought,well, if I'm here for another
year, you know, I'll see aboutwhat I'm doing.
(27:41):
Now, I just want to be gone.
Daniel Rock (27:45):
And I understand that.
I got burgled when I was in NewZealand and we fortunately
weren't home.
But that you never feltcomfortable in that place again.
And I think it's the violationas much anything else, because
your home is supposed to be yoursafe place.
And if you feel like someone canenter that place at any moment,
then it's never gonna feel likehome.
(28:05):
So just kind
Martina (28:06):
I'm so
Daniel Rock (28:06):
yeah.
Martina (28:10):
I'd gone to bed ridiculously early, so when I
heard the noise, the strangenoise, I woke up and didn't just
go straight back to sleep.
And when I crept out to see, andI saw him on the other side, saw
them on the other side, oh, thefear of something like that is
so intense.
(28:32):
That I, you know, I, I'm stillquite scared of the dark a month
on, um, and I, yeah, and what itdoes is it, it, there's, it's a
chemical reaction that's justlike, no, you know, people say
to me, Oh my God, but you'rebeautiful.
What is the point?
What is the point?
(28:52):
You know, I'd rather be livingin a much smaller place.
I can always go out.
I know what I'm capable of.
And that will lead on to your,how do you make a home?
Daniel Rock (29:03):
Yeah.
And I think that's aninteresting thing to touch on
based on that.
Right.
And I think that I'd like toexplore that a little bit.
So one of the things that wesort of, we talked about every
email very briefly is what'snext and not necessarily knowing
what's next because of thissituation now that's happened,
what do you feel, what are youlooking for, I suppose, is the
next question.
What are you looking for in ahome?
What is, what is home going tomean to you going forward?
Martina (29:26):
Well, it's changed somewhat since the attempted
break in because I was prettyfearless before.
Now it's looking like a placewhere I would like to have
neighbours.
You know, people, probably in aplace which is a little bit
more, um, it doesn't have to bemassively, you know, populated
(29:48):
or anything like that, but Ineed to have people around me.
That's one.
The second one is I want awriting room.
That's really what I want.
I want to carry on writingbecause I love it.
I absolutely love it.
And I want to move to somewherewhere I feel comfortable.
And I think I might have foundit.
So I'm going to be moving toWexford in Ireland.
Daniel Rock (30:12):
part of the world.
Um,
Martina (30:14):
where I'm from originally.
So, yeah.
Daniel Rock (30:18):
think that's just a really interesting kind of
statement you've made aroundthat because that talks to two
different parts of right?
One is the feeling that, youknow, that I'm from here, this
is my home.
This is, you know, the comfortof the surroundings, you know?
So I think when you.
Spend a long time overseas thatcan get blurred because you
(30:38):
know, one of the things I talkabout quite often is England
will always be home becausethat's in some way because I'm
from there, but I'll never, Ican't ever see myself moving
back there in any way, shape orform.
It will never be my home interms of comfort feeling.
I can absolutely see myselfmoving back to New Zealand as I
get older and being retiredthere, because that's where that
(30:59):
probably feels.
You know, the most homely placeto me.
Um, I
Martina (31:05):
Why is that?
Daniel Rock (31:07):
it's because for me, I think it's because I grew
up there, you know, in fact, youknow, that sounds odd because I
moved there when I was 22, but Ispent 23 years of my most of my
adult life.
And I think that's when youactually do most of your growing
up, you know,
Martina (31:20):
I couldn't agree more.
Yeah.
Daniel Rock (31:22):
you know, you're that whole you talked about in
your story.
There's, you know, the thingsyou do in your early twenties
versus what you're doing, youknow, and I'm in my mid to late
forties now, and it's, it'svery, very different in terms of
what becomes important, what's apriority.
And I think I spent, you know,most of my adult life living a
long way away from family, youknow, and regardless of
relationships and, you know, addon families and things like
(31:45):
that,
Martina (31:46):
Yeah.
Daniel Rock (31:47):
family, still your family.
And I was a very long way awayfrom mine.
And so.
You build your own, you know, ina lot of that, you know, so I
built my own family friendshipgroups and people I'm very close
with.
I consider, you know, friendsare to consider a brother, you
know, and I love my sister, myreal sister to bits and I love
my mom and dad to bits.
But that's also that's a familythat I was given, which I'm very
grateful for.
(32:07):
But I've also built my ownfamily, which is in New Zealand.
So I think that's also why thatis always a pull.
To me
Martina (32:13):
Wow.
Daniel Rock (32:15):
But I also think that when you look, uh, kind of
the options that you make someof the other things you talked
about, and I think this doesshaped by the experience you
have.
The physical nature of the homeis important as well.
And I think that does change.
You know, I look what you'resaying.
I'll see.
You were broken into and thatwas a violation and you've had
(32:38):
some really, you know, notpleasant experiences in a home.
So the physical things becomemore important in a lot of ways
because it's well, these locks,these doors, this safety
Martina (32:47):
Yes.
Daniel Rock (32:47):
I build around
Martina (32:48):
Yeah.
Daniel Rock (32:48):
becomes much more
Martina (32:49):
all set it up?
Okay.
You all can see it?
Okay.
Oh my gosh.
It's still on.
The audio.
It's still on.
Can you see that?
Oh my gosh.
Daniel Rock (33:10):
you feel creative, whether that's, know, having the
right size TV on the wall towatch sport.
If that's super important toyou, it's that physical
manifestation of what you needto feel safe and feel
Martina (33:21):
It's still on.
Daniel Rock (33:22):
and feel happy.
Martina (33:24):
But, but it's also, I mean, what I, what I found
really gratifying is that I hada really good friend that came
over and I just said, you know,she said, Oh, your home is so
beautiful.
She's been three or four times,you know, and, and, but then she
looked at me and she said, Butyou'll make any way you go
beautiful.
And I just thought, actually,it's fine.
(33:46):
You know, it's just things.
If I've got a dozen plants, I'llbe happy wherever I'm living.
If I've got a little bit of aview where I can go out and walk
to the beach, I will be happyand I can do all of that.
And I think I found the rightplace.
And I agree with you.
I love England.
You can take me out, but youcan't take England out of me.
And there are certain thingsthat I will always, always do
(34:10):
and be.
And I feel a, I feel a realconnection to that place.
And I love going back and seeingmy friends there, but I have
some really wonderful people inIreland, family.
Daniel Rock (34:20):
Yep.
Martina (34:20):
You know, not close family, but they've become
incredibly close and incrediblysupportive and I can't wait, you
know, it's just so lovely tothink and I know, oh my God, I
can't tell you, Daniel, the ideaof packing up and moving and
trying to organise a bloodything, relocation all the way
across two countries, I'm justnot relishing it at all.
(34:44):
But I'll do it because the endis so incredible.
So, yeah,
Daniel Rock (34:50):
I think that's a really good point.
Like when my wife and I and ourlittle daughter moved from New
Zealand to the US, we looked atdo we pack up a container?
Do we bring stuff?
We moved with seven suitcasesand three carry ons.
We moved,
Martina (35:01):
no.
Daniel Rock (35:01):
that's 20 years of life for me there, 13 for my
wife.
And we just decided we weren'tgoing to bring anything.
We'll bring clothes.
We'll bring the basics.
We'll bring a lot of stuff forbaby.
But for us, it was like, they'rejust material things all the
material things for us, weren'tthe important thing.
It was where we were going toend up and the people we were
going to end up with and theenvironment that we were going
to build and material thingscome and go.
(35:22):
You know, there's some, some,there's absolutely some
sentimental material things thatwe brought with us.
The big things like a couch or achair or a table, just
Martina (35:32):
yeah, no.
But then, but then you see, I'vegot a very sentimental bureau
belonging to my dad that is justlike the centerpiece.
So I'm kind of thinking, well,if I'm going to take that back,
I might sort of take that tableand chairs and things like that.
Daniel Rock (35:46):
I get
Martina (35:47):
So for having me on.
It's been great.
Daniel Rock (35:54):
to make home.
Um, well, thank you so much.
I think that's probably a goodtime to wrap up.
My team and I really appreciateyou sharing your story.
I think that's it's veryinspiring in many ways because a
lot of adversities that youfaced and come out smiling and
come out step telling a storyand come out with a goal and
desire to go forward with Ithink is super important.
(36:14):
So again, thank you so much foryour time.
It's really very muchappreciated.
Martina (36:20):
Okay,
Daniel Rock (36:48):
this is a podcast about people and about their
stories.
It's not me waffling on for anhour.
It's about hearing otherpeople's stories.
So really do reach out, um, andlet us know.
We'd love to have you on again.
Thank you so much, Martina.
Hello.
Welcome to wherever I lay myhat, which is a podcast about
home.
today's guest is newly publishedEnglish author Martina Grippo
of, and she's the writer ofHello Flower, which you can find
on Amazon.
And I'll include some links tothat in the show notes.
that's her life story detailingthe decade she spent with a
covert narcissist and includesdetails of her expat life in
(00:27):
Italy, France, and Nicaragua, aswell as detailing her
experiences with bereavement andcancer.
Sometimes funny, often selfdeprecating, which I think is
the Englishness and more oftenthan not, brutally honest.
I'm excited to have Martina ontoday to discuss what home means
to her.
So Martina again, thank you somuch for joining us.
Martina (00:44):
Hi.
Daniel Rock (00:45):
love to hear a little bit sort of about you, a
bit of background, kind of howyou found home or not so far.
And obviously a little bit aboutkind of your book and the story
of your life would be great tohear.
Martina (00:56):
Okay, um, it's great to be here.
Thank you so much for having meon and it's lovely to hear an
English accent as well.
I, um, was born in the north ofEngland and raised in the south.
So I still say nothing, but, um,the rest of my accent, you can
pretty much, you know, pointdown to the south of England.
(01:16):
I was lucky.
Daniel Rock (01:18):
is what we're saying.
Martina (01:19):
I don't know.
I quite like going back, youknow, sometimes the people are
so wonderful in the north ofEngland that it's just, you
know, anyway.
Um, I don't want to alienate anypart of anyone here.
So I, I was really, really luckyand I grew up in Bath.
in the south, uh, southwest,beautiful, beautiful city,
(01:40):
totally spoilt for choice.
Um, my mum, who was fromIreland, uh, ensured that we
often went back to Ireland.
My dad died when I was two and ahalf, my birth father, if you
like.
Um, and I was raised by mystepfather, an amazing man,
absolutely fantastic.
But because of the Italianroots, we would often go back to
(02:02):
Italy.
Uh, to visit family and, youknow, people over there.
So travel, you know, in the dayswhen travel was great, you know,
we're talking a long time ago,where you'd get on a plane and
it would be exciting and therewould be boiled sweets in
baskets and that kind of thing,you know, or you were taken up
to the cockpit.
Yes, that's how old I am.
(02:22):
You know, that kind of stuff, itwas just, it was fascinating.
And I kind of, um, Took itnaturally.
You know, I wasn't afraid ofgetting on planes at a time when
most of my classmates weregoing, you know, on holiday to
the beach, Brighton, Blackpool,you know, those kind of places.
It wasn't, or Cornwall, um, itwasn't really considered to be
(02:45):
the thing to go abroad.
It was very, very much at thebeginning.
And I think that sort of ignitessomething in you.
I think when you find travel,when you're very young, that
easy, you, and it certainly, itcertainly, um, stops you being
afraid.
of new things.
You know that you can do thiskind of thing.
(03:07):
You know that you can go there.
I didn't go on skiing holidaysor anything like that, but I was
pretty much determined by thetime I finished school, sort of,
you know, and I got to around,uh, and after my A levels.
that I wanted, really, reallywanted to go and live in Italy.
This was my be all and end all,which is what the book talks
(03:28):
about.
Daniel Rock (03:29):
Okay.
Martina (03:33):
idea at that time, because you have loads of these
ridiculous ideas, was to startup a creche.
And I wanted to be speakingloads of languages and then come
back to Bath and open up aninternational creche.
That was my idea.
Loved kids, loved travel, lovedspeaking languages, even though
I wasn't, you know, there yet.
And of course, life really doessort of twist it all around for
(03:56):
you, doesn't it?
And say, no, actually, this iswhat I'm going to do.
Daniel Rock (03:59):
very
Martina (04:00):
not coming back, you're not having kids, and, you know,
this is how we're going to workit out for you.
Daniel Rock (04:05):
of
Martina (04:05):
Anyway, when I was in Rome
Daniel Rock (04:07):
we
Martina (04:07):
time, um,
Daniel Rock (04:09):
We
Martina (04:10):
supposed to be in Rome.
I was actually supposed to go toFrance initially.
That fell through and then,
Daniel Rock (04:15):
It's
Martina (04:16):
I
Daniel Rock (04:16):
loud.
It's
Martina (04:17):
something like that, fate, destiny, or just bad luck
made me end up in Rome and I,um, which was good because I was
with an abusive Boyfriend inback in England, so it was good
to get out, you know, and to dosomething different physically
abusive And when I went to Romeit felt as though I had grown up
(04:41):
again You know it
Daniel Rock (04:42):
Yeah.
Martina (04:46):
fun and that city in the late 80s Was phenomenal it
was it's nothing like it is nowYou know, it's very sanitized
and, and generic and that kindof thing.
But oh my goodness, back then itwas perfect stomping ground to
fall in love.
And along he came eventually,and I felt head over heels in
(05:09):
love.
This was the person I was goingto be with for the rest of my
life.
Only, um, yes.
So it, it was a very, verydifficult relationship.
No, that's not true at all.
Sorry.
I just started to go, started tosay, I'm really sorry.
I'm losing it.
I was just thinking about himthen, and then I thought, no,
(05:30):
no.
Initially, he was the be all andend all, and I felt that, uh, we
had the most incrediblelifestyle, or it seemed as
though we had, you know, fromthe outside.
And when you're young, And inyour twenties, I mean,
everything works, doesn't it?
It doesn't really matter whatyou do or how you do it.
(05:50):
And you believe so solidly thateverything you're doing is
right.
Daniel Rock (05:55):
we
Martina (05:56):
You know, you have,
Daniel Rock (05:57):
life experience to tell you otherwise.
Right.
And that's the thing is, ifyou've not experienced different
things, you don't know whetherthis is normal or not normal
because you're only operatewithin your own frame of
reference and your ownexperiences, right?
So that it's, you hear a lot ofpeople in their twenties and
stuff like, Oh, you know, I gotthis wrong.
Well, of course you do.
That's, that's life, right?
(06:18):
You get things wrong.
That's how you learn new things.
You know, mistakes
Martina (06:21):
also why, it's also why when they, you know, I wouldn't
want to go back there, but Iwould want to go back there
knowing what I know now, youknow, that old thing that
everybody says, I mean, I, youknow, I envy their, their youth
and their looks and things likethat.
And you wish back then that youknew what you actually were
like, but.
I had a pretty good time.
I can't complain.
(06:42):
It was amazing, you know, and Ireally did.
But even because I have thisinbuilt thing in me that I, I
had, I needed, I needed adegree.
I needed a career path.
I needed to find something.
It's all very well flitting frompart time job to part time job.
But at some point, even if Ididn't want to grow up, I wanted
(07:03):
to, well, I described it in thebook as I wanted to have
choices.
That's what I wanted.
Daniel Rock (07:09):
Okay.
So, so, so,
Martina (07:10):
And he didn't want to come with me.
Daniel Rock (07:12):
so, so,
Martina (07:12):
Nah.
Daniel Rock (07:12):
so, so, so, so,
Martina (07:13):
He thought, no, this isn't for me.
That's, that's, you know, toomuch like growing up.
But at the time,
Daniel Rock (07:20):
so, so, so,
Martina (07:21):
figured that that was all my fault.
Daniel Rock (07:22):
so, so, so,
Martina (07:23):
So I thought, oh no,
Daniel Rock (07:24):
so,
Martina (07:24):
know, I've, I've got this person
Daniel Rock (07:26):
so,
Martina (07:27):
and I'm now deciding to go off and do a university
degree and he's not coming withme.
I've ruined us.
Daniel Rock (07:32):
so, so, so
Martina (07:33):
So, I buried my head in the sand for about 20 years and
I went off, I was heartbroken.
It was awful.
You know, the first few years,and of course, you know, I'm
going to say this to you, but asa woman, what you do as a
female, you just think.
I really screwed that up.
I really messed that up.
You know, that was my one chanceat love and happiness
Daniel Rock (07:56):
like
Martina (07:57):
and it, you know, and it never, and it never
Daniel Rock (07:59):
not.
It's not.
So
Martina (08:01):
So I spent
Daniel Rock (08:02):
right
Martina (08:02):
next,
Daniel Rock (08:03):
I
Martina (08:03):
was living back in England.
Daniel Rock (08:05):
in the next,
Martina (08:06):
And I did what I think was expected of me.
Daniel Rock (08:10):
six
Martina (08:10):
married a,
Daniel Rock (08:11):
two,
Martina (08:12):
an okay ish
Daniel Rock (08:13):
remember the
Martina (08:14):
boy.
I graduated.
I got a reasonable job.
Daniel Rock (08:18):
just
Martina (08:18):
And I just remember painting once in, in this new,
you know, new house that webought and we were doing up and
things like that.
I remember painting the wallsand my friend, one of my best
friends was in Australiatraveling around all day.
Or Southeast Asia, and I couldalmost feel this, this feeling
inside of real, is this it?
(08:40):
You know, and I think when we,when we force ourselves to
settle down, that's when thingsYou know, the cracks start to
appear
Daniel Rock (08:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Martina (09:01):
really in the middle of Surrey, Greenbelt at 30.
And now I look back and I'mlike, Oh my God, I was only like
30, you know, 30.
To something like that and Ifeel so young, you know, when I
look back and I think of my age,but at the time I was just, uh,
yeah, I think I, this is awful.
(09:22):
I didn't do anything because,you know.
Again, stick it out.
Let's see what's going tohappen.
Lots of things happened, um,affairs on his side and
infertility.
So, the marriage came to an endand I was heartbroken because I
wanted children more thananything.
Daniel Rock (09:41):
Yeah,
Martina (09:41):
But I remember that I was sorting out a room in that
particular house and painting itfor a lodger to move in, you
know, getting ready.
And I remember a friend of mine,he came around and he said to
me,
Daniel Rock (09:54):
Yeah.
Martina (10:01):
rented out.
He said, there is literallynothing stopping, stopping you.
And I thought, yeah, actually,
Daniel Rock (10:07):
Yeah.
Martina (10:14):
um, learn that, you know, I got the TESOL, uh,
teaching English to studentswith other languages.
I started looking around atvolunteering positions because
for me, the be all and end allwould be being in a place where
there were children.
Daniel Rock (10:29):
Mm
Martina (10:29):
And originally I was thinking about going to the
Burmese border.
But my dad was, you know, mylovely dad, he was like, yeah,
it's a bit dangerous at themoment.
So, so Nicaragua was the otherone, teaching.
Daniel Rock (10:44):
sound that much less dangerous in my head than
that.
Martina (10:50):
Yeah, there's been a revolution and things like that.
But I was just like, you know,and again, you're there and
you're just thinking, Oh, I'llbe all right.
And I'll find a way and I'll,you know, and I'll make this
happen.
And much of everything within.
Six months I had thequalification, I'd set up a
thing that I was going to thiscloud forest in the Nicaraguan,
(11:11):
northern Nicaraguan mountains,and, um, yeah, there's a really,
there's a really funny bit inthe book, and I've been quoted
it before in magazines andthings like that.
While I was hanging out at thechicken bus on my way up through
this kind of jungle, you know,in the middle of nowhere, with
(11:32):
petrol cans and live chickensand people staring and not
understanding a word of thelanguage, there was a part of me
that was just going, God, Icould have gone to bloody France
or Spain.
You know, why did I choose?
Sorry to use this, this is veryItalian expression, but, you
know, why did I choose the arseend of nowhere to come and do
(11:56):
this?
And You talk about home.
I don't know.
There was a couple of thingsthat happened while I was in
Nicaragua.
The very first evening Iarrived, I put my hand into the
breeze block building room thatthey showed me into with the
wooden shutters and the mosquitonet, and I went to turn the
light on.
(12:16):
Massive rookie mistake.
No electricity, obviously.
Daniel Rock (12:20):
Yeah.
Martina (12:20):
And I sat on the bed and cried.
And then I had a word withmyself and just said, no,
you've, you decided to comehere, now you work it out.
You, you, you know, give it acouple of weeks.
You've got nobody to blame butyourself.
So, you know, do it.
I think I was there for fivemonths.
(12:40):
Initially, and then I gotdysentery and I felt my best
friend came to see me and thenshe flew home and I was homesick
and I had a dream, I had areally vivid dream that night
about going, you know, goingback home and I dreamt I was
walking down the high street in,you know, suburban Surrey and I
met, you know, I could see otherpeople that I knew then.
(13:03):
I was like, Oh, hi, how are you?
And then they were verydismissive, like, Oh yeah, I'm
fine.
You know, I've got, I've gotstuff to do.
Daniel Rock (13:09):
I
Martina (13:10):
woke up the next morning going, no, you can't go
back.
Nobody's interested.
Everybody's getting on withtheir own lives.
You need to sort of createsomething here.
So I did.
I created a cottage industrywith the coffee farmers.
Daniel Rock (13:23):
Well,
Martina (13:24):
that sort of led to, uh, uh, from, well, if I went
over there, I think it was in
Daniel Rock (13:30):
what I
Martina (13:32):
uh, gosh, I can't remember the exact years, but I
ran
Daniel Rock (13:37):
to thank
Martina (13:37):
own,
Daniel Rock (13:38):
for joining
Martina (13:39):
entirely ethical coffee business, I was the one who was
shipping, I cut out the middleman
Daniel Rock (13:43):
that we
Martina (13:44):
and
Daniel Rock (13:45):
are
Martina (13:45):
to the farmers, built schools,
Daniel Rock (13:47):
to go
Martina (13:48):
did that sort of stuff, you know, so I was going,
coming, going, coming backwardsand forwards to Nicaragua for
probably the best part of 10years, I think,
Daniel Rock (13:57):
And I think if I look at that, and this is a
theme that comes up quite oftenwhen I'm talking to people about
this is that it's the what ifmoments, right?
It's that do I decide to stay?
Do I go?
Do I not?
Do I take a risk?
Don't I take a risk?
Not every decision, but mostdecisions are reversible.
(14:19):
It doesn't, if it doesn't work,I can come home.
If it doesn't work, I can dothis,
Martina (14:23):
yeah.
Daniel Rock (14:24):
you know, I think people that travel or people
that live overseas, I think likewe have it.
That's often the thing, right?
That's the driving force.
It's that well, if it doesn'twork, I can, I can come back.
But if I don't try, I'm gonnaregret not trying.
I'm gonna, there's gonna besomething that's gonna eat away
at me if I don't try the thing.
Martina (14:42):
Yeah, exactly that.
And I think that you're in onecamp or the other.
You're in, either in the campwhere, right, I'm going to stick
this out, I'm going to make thishappen, I'm going to do this, or
there is another camp, it'slike, oh my god, you know, I
remember some people expressedan interest in coming over
there, and they said, you know,how do you wash?
(15:03):
And I was like, oh god.
I can't explain to you this, youshouldn't come to a cloud
forest, you know, and it wasvery, it was very sort of, they
weren't friends of mine, theywere people who were interested
in volunteering and I thought,if those are your questions
already, then there is somethingthat I'm not sure I can, you
know, I'm not sure it'd be agood idea for you to come and
(15:24):
have a cold bucket shower in themiddle of a cloud forest.
I loved it.
I mean, I really, really lovedit.
And I, you know, moved aroundquite a lot and met a lot of
people.
And I had some really lousytimes,
Daniel Rock (15:39):
Mm
Martina (15:39):
difficult times.
Anyway, that's a whole otherconversation.
I came back, um, And, but it wasduring my time, let's say, going
backwards and forwards betweenNicaragua that the, uh, what
should we call him?
Okay, well, the original biglove of my life came back into
(16:02):
my life, and
Daniel Rock (16:04):
uh,
Martina (16:04):
in Nicaragua
Daniel Rock (16:06):
reference reference
Martina (16:07):
you know, sorting out coffee and things like that, and
this email came through.
Daniel Rock (16:11):
just
Martina (16:12):
And I, I think my legs just gave away
Daniel Rock (16:15):
uh, yeah.
Yeah.
What?
Martina (16:16):
I failed miserably in relationships.
I wasn't, you know, happy and Icouldn't, you know, internet
dating had become this reallyhuge thing.
I just couldn't get my headaround any of it.
And I didn't like it.
And
Daniel Rock (16:30):
Transcript.
Martina (16:32):
met somebody, but I wasn't in the right frame of
mind for that person.
So I probably lost him.
He's probably.
Daniel Rock (16:37):
Transcript.
Martina (16:39):
break,
Daniel Rock (16:40):
So,
Martina (16:43):
a lot of baggage.
Um, but I, I then I don't know.
When I saw the email, I thinkmy, I was, I looked at upon it
as this is my opportunity now.
This is my turn to be happy, tohave what everybody else is
talking about.
I couldn't have been more wrong.
I really couldn't.
Daniel Rock (17:04):
And I think that talks to that, you know, and I
don't want to put, I'mdefinitely not in any kind of
council or psychologist in this,but it, it's that the one that
got away piece, you know, thatwhole, Oh, I get a second shot.
I get a second chance.
I get another go at this.
And I think, you know, there's,there's always going to be
temptation to that no matterwhat happens in
Martina (17:23):
And you know what?
Yeah, but on that exact thing,the guy that I've met before, on
the dating thing, where we werenot in the right place to be
with each other.
I'm almost pleased it ended.
Because if I had been with himand I had given it a go and then
he'd come out of nowhere.
(17:45):
Sorry, let me just put that adifferent way.
And then he crawled out fromunder his rock and sent me an
email.
Okay, I would have dropped theother guy at a moment's notice.
to go with him.
So I'm almost, you know, pleasedthat it didn't happen that way
round.
Although exactly what you'vejust said, um, but it works so
(18:07):
against me because that need tomake it happen meant that I
stuck it out for 11 years.
Daniel Rock (18:13):
Yeah.
Martina (18:14):
though it nearly destroyed me.
So I mean, and then crikey, thenwe lived in quite a few
countries.
Oh, I forgot to tell you thatall of this is happening.
I sold my house back in Englandtalking about home and where
home is.
Daniel Rock (18:27):
this.
Martina (18:28):
know that this is, I love the idea of, of
Daniel Rock (18:31):
found
Martina (18:32):
you know, what is the idea of a home?
But even when I came back fromNicaragua after I'd been there
for a year, I lived with aFrench girl.
Daniel Rock (18:38):
word translation
Martina (18:40):
And we spoke in French all, all, all the time.
She didn't speak English and mySpanish wasn't good enough at
that point.
And so we spoke in French allthe time and I loved how
patriotic she was.
And, you know, and this is inthe sound bonkers.
I sold up my house in Surrey.
Daniel Rock (18:56):
chat forum?
Uh
Martina (19:02):
And I just figured, you know, and I, and I fell in love
with it, it was a convertedstable.
It was amazing.
And it was probably the worstvillage I could have bought it
in because it was in the middleof nowhere.
But I
Daniel Rock (19:13):
uh the
Martina (19:16):
You know, this is the right thing to do.
And I wanted to invest my moneyinto solid bricks and mortar and
not just, you know, Um, yeah,anyway, so we got back together
and this time he was willing tomove to the UK to be with me.
So we moved, I found us a place,and, um, this was after a year
(19:40):
of us being together and megoing backwards and forwards to
Italy.
And he didn't have very much inItaly, which should have been a
massive, walling sign.
So I took on the responsibilityof making sure that everything
was going to be amazing for thetwo of us.
And that meant finding a home,and that meant, um, Me being the
(20:00):
only one working because, um, I,you know,
Daniel Rock (20:05):
who
Martina (20:07):
are very, very good narcissists
Daniel Rock (20:08):
colleague
Martina (20:10):
at making you feel as though
Daniel Rock (20:13):
ho.
Martina (20:15):
of their fault.
Nothing is their fault.
It's, you know, they'rewaterproof.
Daniel Rock (20:20):
Well, that's
Martina (20:21):
So
Daniel Rock (20:21):
problems with narcissists, that they actually
believe that.
It's not even that they don'tnecessarily, it's not even
necessarily at that point, afake thing that are putting on,
they have that long held beliefthat, well, they're right.
And everyone else has to that.
And it's that whole
Martina (20:37):
yeah, do you know, yeah, that's a really tough one
because, because I'm notcorrecting you.
Okay.
You're right.
Thank you.
Daniel Rock (20:48):
No
Martina (20:48):
No, no, no.
You do have an inherent beliefthat they're right, but that
almost sounds, and you'reprobably not, as if they're
being excused for the way thatthey are.
Daniel Rock (20:59):
not
Martina (20:59):
Oh, you're not.
Daniel Rock (21:00):
No,
Martina (21:00):
Okay,
Daniel Rock (21:01):
not excusing that at all.
I think, you know, I think itdoesn't matter that they think
they're right, then it stillneeds to be a level of empathy
to accept that other people'sopinions matter.
And they,
Martina (21:12):
it.
Daniel Rock (21:13):
they're not incapable of those feelings,
right?
And I think that's the thing.
And I think is there's a, youknow, you can get into the whole
debate where, you know, withpsychopaths, sociopath and
empathy and the ability to feelit and present yourself as
something that you're not.
I think that just because youfeel you feel something, Doesn't
(21:34):
make it right.
And certainly the impact you youare able to observe the impact
your behavior is having onsomebody else, regardless as
Martina (21:41):
Yeah.
Daniel Rock (21:41):
you think you're right or not.
And if you're causing somebodyelse pain, you have to examine
that.
And I think that's where thatdoesn't happen.
And that makes them.
the intensely evil part of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Martina (22:01):
kinder and would share toys and things like that if you
teach it properly, but, um, it'sexactly what you said, that
there's no accountability, butthen add into that mix, because
he was nasty.
I mean, not initially, but hewas so good at what he was
doing.
The manipulation was so vile andintense that I took everything
(22:24):
on.
This is my fault.
This is entirely my fault.
And all you had to do was say,look, I'm here for you.
I've come all the way over.
I've left my country.
I'm here for you.
And I was straight back to whereI'd been 25 years earlier, you
know, and
Daniel Rock (22:43):
Yes.
Martina (22:44):
I don't know, I, I,
Daniel Rock (22:46):
middle
Martina (22:47):
We were together for 11 years.
We got married, stupidly.
Um, and in that time, I did havebreast cancer and went through
chemo.
And after that, I think he thenbecame very fed up, even though
I was a great wingy man, becausethis is a guy who probably in 11
years worked one.
Daniel Rock (23:05):
the Russian
Martina (23:07):
if you added all the little bits.
Daniel Rock (23:08):
Russian civilians are
Martina (23:11):
And
Daniel Rock (23:11):
shot
Martina (23:12):
the cancer, I mean, this is how good it was.
We need to move back to Italywhere the food is good for you.
Sunshine is great.
Yeah.
No, he wanted to move back toItaly because he was fed up with
England.
He'd done England and
Daniel Rock (23:30):
Yeah.
Martina (23:33):
He, he just split it off and left me to pack up.
And I mean, it beggars beliefhow many times.
in the time that I was with him.
It was me packing boxes andmoving yet again, and again, and
again.
Since I've been with him, and Icould say I'm not an authority
on Italians, but I've prettymuch lived in the South, in the
(23:55):
Middle, and in the North.
And I did keep moving because Iwas, you know,
Daniel Rock (24:01):
Not
Martina (24:02):
had to, to, to look for work or to, you know, Oh, it
was,
Daniel Rock (24:06):
questions.
Martina (24:06):
in the book the way that, you know, once again, and
there was even,
Daniel Rock (24:10):
I
Martina (24:11):
I won't spoil that, but
Daniel Rock (24:12):
Can you say
Martina (24:14):
don't think I've ever been afraid of moving.
And then my dad died, my mum hadalready died, and then my dad
died in 2020.
And by now I was, you know, awreck, you know, he, because
they are a bit like, I don'tknow if you've ever read any of
Harry Potter,
Daniel Rock (24:30):
Yeah.
Martina (24:31):
in Harry Potter, the, the dementors suck the energy
Daniel Rock (24:34):
Yeah.
Martina (24:34):
people.
Daniel Rock (24:35):
hmm.
Martina (24:36):
That's what they are.
That's exactly what they are.
Daniel Rock (24:39):
what
Martina (24:39):
almost like a,
Daniel Rock (24:40):
trying
Martina (24:41):
must tell you, Daniel, I've got a sub stack page.
Okay.
You don't have to read anythingor anything like that on it, but
there is a,
Daniel Rock (24:48):
across
Martina (24:49):
there is a blog post I've written called take the
photo.
Daniel Rock (24:53):
Yeah.
Martina (25:07):
for everything, um, who's sadly also gone.
And.
In that video, there is, it'sonly three minutes, three or
four minutes or something likethat.
It shows exactly what anarcissist does to you, and it
shows how I created a home.
Okay, so there was this, youknow, this, this sort of villa
(25:30):
on its own.
It was all tumbled down, hadn'tbeen touched in 50 odd years,
and I was so excited.
I couldn't wait to get my handson it.
I couldn't wait to start doingthings.
And I came in.
And you know, I did it.
And in the video, it's as thoughsomebody's turned the light back
on in me when you see it in Julyof this year and you see how
(25:51):
I've made a home.
Now I'm going to give you theshocker.
Okay.
Well, so that was, I left himin, um, 2022.
at the beginning of 2022.
Um, I stayed here in the housebecause I have my really big dog
and I, well, that was his bigdog, he didn't want the dog.
And I looked after him until um,he died last year.
(26:14):
And I think I've pretty much gotto the end of my tether
generally the way of life herebecause it's not all it's
cracked up to be by any stretchof the imagination.
Daniel Rock (26:23):
is right.
I think that's everywhere yougo.
There's a compromise, right?
And I think that's one of thethings I want to explore with
you on that, right?
Is it's if it doesn't feel likehome.
All the things that would be aminor irritant somewhere else
become a major irritant whereyou are.
Martina (26:40):
Well, the language, I speak the language, but people
are out to get you here.
literally out to get you.
So in July, I decided that Iwanted to sell up.
Madness, that my, my house isbeautiful.
I have it exactly the way Iwanted it.
And I've always been okay aboutit.
(27:01):
And I've run a little bed andbreakfast out of here and
everything else until about amonth ago when I was in bed and
somebody was drilling holes inthe French window trying to get
in.
Daniel Rock (27:14):
Yeah, that's not good.
That's an instant way to notfeel safe where you are.
Martina (27:20):
So I woke up to find an intruder.
Just about to put a wire throughthe door and open the thing and
everything changed for me.
Everything in that instance.
Before, I, you know, I thought,well, if I'm here for another
year, you know, I'll see aboutwhat I'm doing.
(27:41):
Now, I just want to be gone.
Daniel Rock (27:45):
And I understand that.
I got burgled when I was in NewZealand and we fortunately
weren't home.
But that you never feltcomfortable in that place again.
And I think it's the violationas much anything else, because
your home is supposed to be yoursafe place.
And if you feel like someone canenter that place at any moment,
then it's never gonna feel likehome.
(28:05):
So just kind
Martina (28:06):
I'm so
Daniel Rock (28:06):
yeah.
Martina (28:10):
I'd gone to bed ridiculously early, so when I
heard the noise, the strangenoise, I woke up and didn't just
go straight back to sleep.
And when I crept out to see, andI saw him on the other side, saw
them on the other side, oh, thefear of something like that is
so intense.
(28:32):
That I, you know, I, I'm stillquite scared of the dark a month
on, um, and I, yeah, and what itdoes is it, it, there's, it's a
chemical reaction that's justlike, no, you know, people say
to me, Oh my God, but you'rebeautiful.
What is the point?
What is the point?
(28:52):
You know, I'd rather be livingin a much smaller place.
I can always go out.
I know what I'm capable of.
And that will lead on to your,how do you make a home?
Daniel Rock (29:03):
Yeah.
And I think that's aninteresting thing to touch on
based on that.
Right.
And I think that I'd like toexplore that a little bit.
So one of the things that wesort of, we talked about every
email very briefly is what'snext and not necessarily knowing
what's next because of thissituation now that's happened,
what do you feel, what are youlooking for, I suppose, is the
next question.
What are you looking for in ahome?
What is, what is home going tomean to you going forward?
Martina (29:26):
Well, it's changed somewhat since the attempted
break in because I was prettyfearless before.
Now it's looking like a placewhere I would like to have
neighbours.
You know, people, probably in aplace which is a little bit
more, um, it doesn't have to bemassively, you know, populated
(29:48):
or anything like that, but Ineed to have people around me.
That's one.
The second one is I want awriting room.
That's really what I want.
I want to carry on writingbecause I love it.
I absolutely love it.
And I want to move to somewherewhere I feel comfortable.
And I think I might have foundit.
So I'm going to be moving toWexford in Ireland.
Daniel Rock (30:12):
part of the world.
Um,
Martina (30:14):
where I'm from originally.
So, yeah.
Daniel Rock (30:18):
think that's just a really interesting kind of
statement you've made aroundthat because that talks to two
different parts of right?
One is the feeling that, youknow, that I'm from here, this
is my home.
This is, you know, the comfortof the surroundings, you know?
So I think when you.
Spend a long time overseas thatcan get blurred because you
(30:38):
know, one of the things I talkabout quite often is England
will always be home becausethat's in some way because I'm
from there, but I'll never, Ican't ever see myself moving
back there in any way, shape orform.
It will never be my home interms of comfort feeling.
I can absolutely see myselfmoving back to New Zealand as I
get older and being retiredthere, because that's where that
(30:59):
probably feels.
You know, the most homely placeto me.
Um, I
Martina (31:05):
Why is that?
Daniel Rock (31:07):
it's because for me, I think it's because I grew
up there, you know, in fact, youknow, that sounds odd because I
moved there when I was 22, but Ispent 23 years of my most of my
adult life.
And I think that's when youactually do most of your growing
up, you know,
Martina (31:20):
I couldn't agree more.
Yeah.
Daniel Rock (31:22):
you know, you're that whole you talked about in
your story.
There's, you know, the thingsyou do in your early twenties
versus what you're doing, youknow, and I'm in my mid to late
forties now, and it's, it'svery, very different in terms of
what becomes important, what's apriority.
And I think I spent, you know,most of my adult life living a
long way away from family, youknow, and regardless of
relationships and, you know, addon families and things like
(31:45):
that,
Martina (31:46):
Yeah.
Daniel Rock (31:47):
family, still your family.
And I was a very long way awayfrom mine.
And so.
You build your own, you know, ina lot of that, you know, so I
built my own family friendshipgroups and people I'm very close
with.
I consider, you know, friendsare to consider a brother, you
know, and I love my sister, myreal sister to bits and I love
my mom and dad to bits.
But that's also that's a familythat I was given, which I'm very
grateful for.
(32:07):
But I've also built my ownfamily, which is in New Zealand.
So I think that's also why thatis always a pull.
To me
Martina (32:13):
Wow.
Daniel Rock (32:15):
But I also think that when you look, uh, kind of
the options that you make someof the other things you talked
about, and I think this doesshaped by the experience you
have.
The physical nature of the homeis important as well.
And I think that does change.
You know, I look what you'resaying.
I'll see.
You were broken into and thatwas a violation and you've had
(32:38):
some really, you know, notpleasant experiences in a home.
So the physical things becomemore important in a lot of ways
because it's well, these locks,these doors, this safety
Martina (32:47):
Yes.
Daniel Rock (32:47):
I build around
Martina (32:48):
Yeah.
Daniel Rock (32:48):
becomes much more
Martina (32:49):
all set it up?
Okay.
You all can see it?
Okay.
Oh my gosh.
It's still on.
The audio.
It's still on.
Can you see that?
Oh my gosh.
Daniel Rock (33:10):
you feel creative, whether that's, know, having the
right size TV on the wall towatch sport.
If that's super important toyou, it's that physical
manifestation of what you needto feel safe and feel
Martina (33:21):
It's still on.
Daniel Rock (33:22):
and feel happy.
Martina (33:24):
But, but it's also, I mean, what I, what I found
really gratifying is that I hada really good friend that came
over and I just said, you know,she said, Oh, your home is so
beautiful.
She's been three or four times,you know, and, and, but then she
looked at me and she said, Butyou'll make any way you go
beautiful.
And I just thought, actually,it's fine.
(33:46):
You know, it's just things.
If I've got a dozen plants, I'llbe happy wherever I'm living.
If I've got a little bit of aview where I can go out and walk
to the beach, I will be happyand I can do all of that.
And I think I found the rightplace.
And I agree with you.
I love England.
You can take me out, but youcan't take England out of me.
And there are certain thingsthat I will always, always do
(34:10):
and be.
And I feel a, I feel a realconnection to that place.
And I love going back and seeingmy friends there, but I have
some really wonderful people inIreland, family.
Daniel Rock (34:20):
Yep.
Martina (34:20):
You know, not close family, but they've become
incredibly close and incrediblysupportive and I can't wait, you
know, it's just so lovely tothink and I know, oh my God, I
can't tell you, Daniel, the ideaof packing up and moving and
trying to organise a bloodything, relocation all the way
across two countries, I'm justnot relishing it at all.
(34:44):
But I'll do it because the endis so incredible.
So, yeah,
Daniel Rock (34:50):
I think that's a really good point.
Like when my wife and I and ourlittle daughter moved from New
Zealand to the US, we looked atdo we pack up a container?
Do we bring stuff?
We moved with seven suitcasesand three carry ons.
We moved,
Martina (35:01):
no.
Daniel Rock (35:01):
that's 20 years of life for me there, 13 for my
wife.
And we just decided we weren'tgoing to bring anything.
We'll bring clothes.
We'll bring the basics.
We'll bring a lot of stuff forbaby.
But for us, it was like, they'rejust material things all the
material things for us, weren'tthe important thing.
It was where we were going toend up and the people we were
going to end up with and theenvironment that we were going
to build and material thingscome and go.
(35:22):
You know, there's some, some,there's absolutely some
sentimental material things thatwe brought with us.
The big things like a couch or achair or a table, just
Martina (35:32):
yeah, no.
But then, but then you see, I'vegot a very sentimental bureau
belonging to my dad that is justlike the centerpiece.
So I'm kind of thinking, well,if I'm going to take that back,
I might sort of take that tableand chairs and things like that.
Daniel Rock (35:46):
I get
Martina (35:47):
So for having me on.
It's been great.
Daniel Rock (35:54):
to make home.
Um, well, thank you so much.
I think that's probably a goodtime to wrap up.
My team and I really appreciateyou sharing your story.
I think that's it's veryinspiring in many ways because a
lot of adversities that youfaced and come out smiling and
come out step telling a storyand come out with a goal and
desire to go forward with Ithink is super important.
(36:14):
So again, thank you so much foryour time.
It's really very muchappreciated.
Martina (36:20):
Okay,
Daniel Rock (36:48):
this is a podcast about people and about their
stories.
It's not me waffling on for anhour.
It's about hearing otherpeople's stories.
So really do reach out, um, andlet us know.
We'd love to have you on again.
Thank you so much, Martina.
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