November 27, 2024 • 43 mins
In this episode of 'Wherever I Lay My Hat,' host Dan sits down with Dr. Scott Allen, a physician, author, and professor emeritus at the University of California, Riverside, recognized for his contributions to health and human rights. Dr. Allen shares his compelling journey from surviving a childhood burn injury to working in refugee camps on the Thai-Cambodian border as a teenager. He discusses his work in immigration detention centers and the concept of 'home' through the lens of his experiences and the people he has helped. Dr. Allen's forthcoming memoir, 'Across a Bridge of Fire,' is also highlighted. The conversation explores the universal search for safety, peace, and belonging across different contexts and circumstances.
You can purchase Scott's book here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1963296257
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
01:15 Dr. Scott Allen's Early Life and Childhood Trauma
02:52 The Search for Home and Meaning
04:46 Journey to Cambodia at 17
08:20 Experiences in Cambodian Refugee Camps
14:40 Impact of Refugee Work on Career Choices
17:35 Adapting to Life's Unexpected Turns
21:09 Reflections on Home in Various Contexts
23:18 Learning from Inmate Patients
24:31 Understanding the Need for Belonging
25:57 The Concept of Home and Peace
28:35 Immigrant Experiences and Home
31:45 Working in Detention Centers
33:21 Humanizing Immigration
35:50 The Power of Personal Stories
40:39 The Role of Technology in Connection
42:32 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniel Rock (00:05):
Welcome to wherever I lay my hat, a podcast about
the concept of home.
Um, this week's guest is Dr.
Scott Allen, who is a physician,author, and professor emeritus
at the university of California,Riverside.
He is internationally recognizedin the field of health and human
rights.
Most recently for helping bringattention to the conditions of
children in us immigrationdetention, which is work.
(00:26):
He received, uh an award alongwith 2019, the ride and how a
palate prize.
Hopefully I've said thatcorrectly.
And the physicians for humanrights award.
memoir about surviving achildhood burn injury and
subsequent journey as a teenagerto the war torn Cambodian border
across a bridge of firepublished in March 2024.
And I'll make sure there's alink to that in our show notes.
(00:49):
He's also appeared on CBS 60minutes, CNN and multiple NPR
programs.
And his op eds have appeared inthe Washington post USA today
and the international HeraldTribune.
And I'm honored to have him as aguest today.
Scott (01:03):
Thank you, Daniel.
It's my pleasure to be with you.
Happy to be here.
Daniel Rock (01:07):
And look, that's a fascinating, um, background.
Um, and I'm really excited toexplore of that with you today
or a lot of that with you today.
So I'd love to hear a little bitsort of, if we start maybe from
the beginning really, and alittle bit around your
background and how you got intodoing the things you do and
yeah, if you could just sort ofgive us a little bit of a
(01:29):
introduction, it would bewonderful.
Scott (01:31):
Terrific.
Well, I was born and raised inConnecticut, in northwestern
Connecticut.
Um, uh, a, uh, suburbancommunity, um, uh, basically a
comfortable middle classupbringing.
Um, and all was good.
Uh, however, at age 10, um, mybrother and I were lighting a
(01:55):
fire.
We were using gasoline as anaccelerant, and, uh, the fumes
were ignited and the gas canexploded, uh, sending a, a
flamethrower like gust in mydirection.
And I suffered, uh, third degreeburns over about a third of my
body.
Ended up, um, hospitalizedthrough, uh, much of the latter
(02:18):
half of 1972.
Um, and, uh, then returned backto my suburban setting as a 10
year old child, but now foreverchanged by the experience.
Of the trauma and a burnhospital.
So that's, we can, and we canexplore that some more, but I'm
just trying to set up theframework.
(02:38):
Um, that, you know, we'retalking, uh, we'll be talking
today about a journey, but also,you know, trying to find home.
Um, it's just an interestingframe for me to think about this
story.
Uh, because I, I had a wonderfulhome.
I really had no problems with myhome, but after that, Obviously
life changing incident, um,there began a new search for,
(03:01):
for something called home and itwas a, it was a long and
interesting path.
Um, so, uh, I, I appreciate theframework you're using for this
podcast.
Cause it allows me to think ofthe story in a slightly
different way than I usuallytell it.
Daniel Rock (03:17):
Yeah, I'd be just touch on that and we can touch
on it a little bit more as we goforward.
But just and obviously sometimeshard to put yourself back into
your 10 year old 11 year oldmind because obviously the world
is very different as a child.
But obviously home is notsomething you necessarily think
of as a child.
Like, is this safe?
Not safe.
It's just what it is.
(03:38):
Did do you think it's probably abetter way of asking that
question?
Do you think The accidentchanged your feeling of how home
was to you.
Did home feel less safe?
Did it, did it change that wholeperception for you?
Do you think,
Scott (03:53):
Yeah, it certainly changed my perception and you
know, it's interesting.
I don't think I thought of homeas being less safe.
Interestingly enough, but I, Iprematurely got to that point
that I think more typicallypeople get to in their late
teens, early twenties where Ifeel like.
Felt that home no longer hadeverything I needed, um, that I
(04:14):
was, uh, prematurely exposed toa much bigger world with much
more serious issues, you know,and awareness of things that
most 10 year olds don't have,um, quite simply suffering, um,
death, the lack of safety that,that, you know, my parents did
nothing wrong in, uh, in, inthat my brother and I got into
(04:34):
something we shouldn't have.
I mean, So many children do thesame, despite the best effort of
parents.
Um, but I, but I understoodthat, that nobody could really
keep me safe, that the world wasfull of risk.
Um, and really between 10 and17, when I finally leave home to
go across the world and searchfor answers.
(04:56):
Um, it was, it was feeling thathome no longer at, in that, at
that time, at that stage in mylife.
It no longer had what I needed.
Daniel Rock (05:06):
okay,
Scott (05:07):
And it wasn't because it wasn't because, you know, my, my
wonderful parents are stillalive today.
Really the best parents,siblings, the whole thing, it
had the whole normal package,but I had now, uh, was
experiencing some new questionsthat I had to look further.
Daniel Rock (05:23):
so 17, it's a big step.
Even if you were 10, so likelate seventies.
Early eighties is a big tie.
Even back then going overseas at17 is a pretty big call.
Um, show some big trust on yourparents side.
I think I was, I would suggest,but talk to me a little bit
about that.
Kind of where, why, why at 17,did you go?
(05:45):
I think you've touched a littlebit on that, but also what made
the decisions of where to go andobviously Cambodia.
And there was a lot going on inthe seventies and eighties in
Cambodia.
So it'd be really interesting tohear some of that.
Scott (05:56):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Um, and, and, and in fact, youknow, the, the book, uh, one of
the reasons I wrote it, um, is.
For now 44 years.
People ask the very questionlike, what was going on in your
head?
You picked up at 17.
And by the way, my parents veryunderstanding, I, I did not go
with their knowledge.
They got a collect call from thegeneral post office in Thailand
(06:18):
to their utter shock that I wasalready there.
Um, but what was going on?
So, you know, the context foryour listeners, particularly
younger listeners.
So, you know, the Vietnam War,uh, the American involvement in
the Vietnam War, that'sbasically the period from 1965
to 1973.
The war ends after Americanwithdrawal in 1975.
(06:41):
So this is something I'm growingup, uh, exposed to on the
television.
We have neighbors who serve, um,uh, people in our community who
are prisoners of war.
Um, and when I got burned, I wascared for by a, uh, general
surgeon who had just returnedfrom a tour of duty on a burn
ward in Vietnam.
So, uh, I had an awareness ofVietnam, but, um, What was
(07:07):
happening in the news by thetime 1979 rolls around, in the
fall of 1979, that is when theVietnamese invaded neighboring
Cambodia and overthrew the KhmerRouge regime.
The Khmer Rouge had taken overin 1975 and undertook a radical
(07:27):
revolution, not unlike theCultural Revolution, but maybe
even more radical.
Daniel Rock (07:33):
well, possibly one of the five most evil people
that's probably ever existed.
Um,
Scott (07:39):
Correct.
Daniel Rock (07:40):
there's a,
Scott (07:41):
Yes.
Daniel Rock (07:42):
very thought provoking book and there's a
movie made of it, but I'drecommend people read the book,
which is obviously KillingFields, which is all about the
Pol Pot regime and Khmer Rougein Cambodia, which is an awesome
read.
And
Scott (07:53):
And
Daniel Rock (07:53):
yeah, that's,
Scott (07:54):
very important, uh, uh, well, the, the original story by
Sidney Schamberg of hisrelationship with Dithbron and
then the movie, uh, that isreally quite outstanding.
By the way, as an aside, uh,while you're making a
recommendation for that movie,uh, Myself who was there in
those camps and many of myCambodian friends, um, would
vouch for the authenticity ofthat music movie and the
(08:17):
accuracy.
So, uh, it's a really importantone.
Yeah.
Anyway, the, what was happeningin October of 1979 is the first
refugees escaping the KhmerRouge made it to the Thai
Cambodian border.
And it was the headline.
It was the headline for at leasta few months, um, Starving
Refugees Crossing Into Thailand.
And, you know, I had beenpercolating feeling that, you
know, love my parents, love mycommunity, um, but something was
(08:40):
missing.
I felt just compelled to notpick up and read a newspaper.
Um, or learn this news and feellike, no, that's not related to
me.
That's not connected.
I felt very connected.
Um, and I had no illusions thatI had anything to offer.
I was 17, hadn't finished highschool, didn't even have like an
emergency medical techniciantraining and had nothing to
offer, but, uh, bought a one wayticket and got myself to
(09:04):
Thailand and, and showed up onthe doorstep of, uh, an agency
and managed to, uh, convincethem to take me on as a
volunteer worker headed for theborder.
Um, And the story goes on from,from there.
So, um, but again, where westarted, you know, I, I think
the common way.
(09:26):
If I'm briefly telling some ofthe stories, I ran away from
home at 17 to go to theCambodian border, but it's
slightly misleading because Iwasn't running away from
something so much as I wasrunning towards something.
And as crazy as it all sounds,and as young as I was, um, it's
one of these moments in life.
My intuition was 110 percentcorrect.
(09:48):
I, I did find what I was lookingfor.
In terms of meaning, um, thebeginning of answers, a path
forward in my life that, soreally a pivotal point in my
life, ended up working on theborder that first trip for nine
months, um, and then wouldreturn.
So over the next five yearsworked in the refugee program in
(10:09):
Thailand, um, on and off for atotal of about three years.
And, uh, at the end of thatfirst, um, tour, while still 17,
I was actually hired by the U Sembassy.
So it's sort of a.
Unlikely story.
Um, and all this eventually led,I eventually returned to the
United States and pursued acareer in medicine and human
(10:30):
rights and as much that follows.
But, you know, we're reallyfocusing on, or at least now in
the book and in our conversationso far on that critical period
of searching for the truth.
For answers, um, searching for asort of now new, different
definition of home, um, and howI, I find it in the most
(10:51):
unlikely of places a refugeecamp on the Thai Cambodian
border.
Daniel Rock (10:55):
And that's really interesting.
Was that much of that was yourexperience of being amongst that
environment and how much of thatis you seeing the experience of
others having their, you know,their world has been changed,
right?
That home was one thing forthem.
And now we're in a refugee camp.
They have no permanent home.
(11:15):
How did their experiences, andwe probably talk a little bit
about this later on when we talkabout the people trying to get
into the U S as well, but thatwhole Being in a displaced
persons camp or refugee camp,how does that change your
perception, or did it changeyour perception of home and what
that means?
Scott (11:30):
No, absolutely it did.
You know, I think one of thebiggest misconceptions about a
lot of migration that's not donefor, I mean, you know, we both
come from affluent societies.
Generally, if you move toanother country, it's because
you have an opportunity or itsounds exciting or you want to
try it.
Yeah.
But so often migration is peoplewho never wanted to leave their
home.
In fact, they liked everythingabout their home, but things
(11:51):
happened, external thingshappened, um, economically,
politically, um, safety, allthese things can, uh, be
threatened and be unsettled.
And then reluctantly, they go insearch for a new home.
I think that kind of perspectiveis missing.
Well, here we were with, um, youknow, Cambodians, uh, Who
certainly wanted to escape theviolence and oppression of the
(12:14):
Khmer Rouge regime, but they'dbe just as quick to tell you
before the Khmer Rouge came topower.
The power, they loved Cambodia.
They loved their life inCambodia.
There was some, there was a homethere that got destroyed and
they weren't necessarily lookingto come to Canada, France,
United States, Australia.
They were looking for safety, aplace to, you know, to secure
(12:35):
themselves for the moment.
And indeed many, um, have eitherreturned to Cambodia or visit
Cambodia again, you know, allthese years later.
Um, but you're absolutelycorrect.
Why did I find what I waslooking for?
Uh, well.
I had immediately so many peoplewho had been more traumatized
than I had, whose lives had beenmore disrupted, uh, than mine
(12:58):
had been, but they were, uh,literally modeling, um, how to
deal with adversity, how to dealwith change.
And, and already in this bamboostructured tenuous mined border,
narrow strip of land, the firstcamp I was in was called my
(13:18):
root, it was.
The southernmost Cambodianrefugee camp that was at the
base of the mountains betweenCambodia and Thailand and then a
little short strip of landbefore you got to the ocean.
Really precarious placeconsidering in the mountains
were both Vietnamese troops,Khmer Rouge troops, And, and
along the Thai border, the Thaitroops, it was very militarily,
(13:39):
very vulnerable, um, and yetpeople were making that camp in
that moment, their home, I mean,they were modifying, you know,
the, the, the relief agenciescame and put up some bamboo
structures really quickly, but.
But they were adding, you know,little things to their living
spaces, personalizing them, um,reconfiguring and reconstructing
(14:04):
their families.
Very devastated, separated, um,many people dead.
So families weren't necessarilythe biological family.
They were often adopting peoplethey met along the way, um, and
restructuring and forming a, a,a new, So I was really, uh,
being shown, uh, right up close,uh, people overcoming tremendous
(14:28):
adversity with, with a lot ofvery good coping skills.
So yeah, that had a profoundinfluence on how I Viewed my own
situation, how I viewed theworld.
Daniel Rock (14:40):
And would you say that, was it that, I suppose the
next question for me sort oftouches to the next stage of
your journey, I suppose, is thatexperience in Thailand at the
refugee camps, was that a directcorrelation to you then wanting
to go and study medicine?
Or was that already somethingthat was in your head and it
just confirmed that?
Interested to understand thatnext
Scott (15:02):
Yeah.
No, the, the, the kernel of theidea to go into medicine clearly
came for me, uh, from myexperience as a patient in the
burn hospital.
Um, and in fact, people knewthat when I, I did, you know,
it's impulsive as I was inrunning away and going to
Thailand with no job securedahead of time.
Um, people who knew I wanted todo something to help were
(15:25):
urging.
You know, patients and cautionsaying like, why don't you
pursue, you want to be a doctor,go educate yourself, be a
doctor.
When you're a doctor, you couldreally help people.
That's when you should go.
It's just that, you know, you'reyoung, you're impatient.
I said, you know, the Cambodianborder is happening now and I
can't ignore it, but itobviously reinforced, uh, my
(15:46):
desire to go on and, and gettraining where I could be even
more helpful.
You know, we we've glossed over.
What did I do when I got, youknow, a relief team, uh, took
pity on me.
I gotta be honest with you.
I mean, I think people werestruck that this young kid got
himself out there and they said,well, you know, hop in the van,
(16:07):
we'll send you out with ourteam.
So I, I really was doing sort ofodd jobs that most of which
could have been done by localpeople, refugees themselves, or
local Thai workers.
Um, and I was keenly aware that,you know, I looked around and
saw the people that were reallybeing helpful and they tended to
be people with experience andtraining and so forth.
So that just reinforced that,okay, this has been good for me.
(16:28):
And I, and eventually I was ableto find a meaningful role when I
got hired by the U.
S.
Embassy and was able to processrefugee applications and help
people move forward, um, whichdidn't require a whole lot of
skill.
It was on the job training, um,and, you know, task wise, fairly
basic work, um, of, of recordingpeople's histories, filling out
forms for them.
(16:48):
Um, but, uh, that, yeah, did,did I see there that, like, I
really needed to go back, pursuemy education, and, and get some
skills that would actually beuseful in these situations?
And so, yeah, that propelled me.
As hard and long as medicaltraining is, I, I never, You
know, had any second thoughts ordoubts about it?
Daniel Rock (17:08):
Okay.
And was that always the plan touse your medical training in
that way?
So obviously medical training ismedical school and then there's
residency and specializationsand whether you go into surgery,
general practice, was your planalways to go into that?
And I wouldn't excuse myignorance, know what the
terminology for that style ofmedicine would be, but was that
(17:28):
always the plan?
No.
Scott (17:31):
the plan very explicitly the plan and for really the next
10 years of my life.
I pursued a very tailorededucational track supported by
really good mentors to beSomeone who was going to have a
great impact in internationalhealth and then life happens And
in my case, literally, uh, weeksbefore I finished my specialized
(17:53):
10 year training track ininternational health, um, my
first child was born with severeand profound developmental
disabilities.
And the idea of living in thethird world just vanished in an
instant.
Um, so, but this is everyone'slife, right?
I mean, you're, you make yourplans and then you react to what
happens, which is actually, youknow, I, you know, at 62 years
(18:16):
old, I'm not.
Unhappy about that.
And it keeps things interesting.
If you could plan your life at17 and have it all work out in
some ways that would be, um,less rewarding.
So, you know, I, I then had toadapt and, and that's when I
switched and did some work incommunity health centers in the
Mississippi Delta, uh, but then.
(18:37):
Um, had an opportunity to workin the, um, jails and prisons
correctional health field, whichhad some overlap from refugee
work, um, and, and did that.
But that eventually led its wayback to doing work, um, in, uh,
immigration detention.
So there is some coming fullcircle because, you know, now at
the end of my career, I am backinvolved, uh, in part of my
(19:00):
work.
Um, with, uh, people who are,you know, again, as we said,
effectively refugees, we willnot make that a legal
definition, but in the commonsense of the word, people who
are displaced from their homes,who are trying to find a new
home.
Daniel Rock (19:15):
Yeah.
And I appreciate what you'resaying in those six of them.
I, one of the reasons we arewhere we are.
So we moved from New Zealand toBirmingham and Alabama, which is
necessarily a route that thatmany people take.
but part of ours was driven bythe same thing.
So we, I had my daughter lastyear, and And she was born with
a congenital heart defect and
Scott (19:37):
Okay.
Daniel Rock (19:37):
of a fairly rare version of down syndrome called
mosaic down syndrome.
So
Scott (19:41):
Yes.
Daniel Rock (19:42):
there's a, a nice piece of uncertainty around what
her development will look likegoing forward and look for us.
Neither us had family in NewZealand.
Now we both had wonderful friendnetworks of people that cared
for us deeply and that weregreat resource.
But it's a little different tobeing around family and having
piece.
And not designed to be apolitical, um, podcast.
(20:06):
But for various reasons, thesouth in the U.
S.
Because incredibly conservativearea, there's a higher
percentage of down syndromebabies born than there isn't
perhaps somewhere like NewZealand, which is a lot more
liberal, which means there'smore resource.
So they've got a specialist downsyndrome clinic here.
There's
Scott (20:20):
Yep.
Good.
Daniel Rock (20:21):
centers.
So for us, it was yes, beingclose to family was important.
But also, as you sort ofmentioned, being where You know,
having a young childdevelopmental issues in a place
where there isn't perhaps thatnetwork set up to support that.
That was part of the decision tocome here.
Now, my wife's from here, whichmakes it a lot easier for us to
do that, but I totally get the,know, that whole thing.
(20:43):
That was not the plan.
You know, we were thinking ofcoming to the US for a few
years, but it was likely to beAtlanta or Charlotte or,
Scott (20:49):
Sure.
Daniel Rock (20:50):
Nashville or somewhere like that.
Birmingham probably wasn't onthe original list.
Um, but, you know, we're veryfortunate in Birmingham.
It's got some great hospitals,some great,
Scott (20:58):
Absolutely.
Yes.
Daniel Rock (20:59):
things like that.
And I kind of want to touch onone of the other things you sort
of mentioned there, which was,you know, working in the
correction and stuff like that.
That's a whole nother concept ofhome that, you know, that's a,
they're not at home and thatisn't quite by choice.
How does that, how did that kindof shape your thinking of what
(21:20):
people do to adapt and, andthrive or struggle in those
environments?
Yup.
Scott (21:27):
in, you know, there's, there's a couple of settings
we've talked about that aredetention settings, the refugee
camps being one.
Immigration detention in the U.
S.
context is slightly different.
It's more, more like thecarceral system and then
criminal justice, you know, ofthose, um, they're all quite
different and have their ownpressures.
Um, and I, and I think thatnobody would ever say, They were
(21:49):
at home in any of those, butcircumstance force people,
particularly if the detention isprolonged to do something, to
make it a home.
And it really cuts to the bone,um, the essence of, of how do
you, um, cope and make someplaceyour home.
And you start to realize that Ithink you've hit on some of
these things.
So first of all, the mostimportant thing is I think is
(22:12):
sort of an internal Um, anchoryour feelings about what home
is.
Um, that those are things youcarry with you.
They move with you where you go.
Uh, when you're young, you don'trealize you possess these
things, but over time theybecome, uh, more clear.
But the second thing that you'vealready touched upon is, is, you
know, whether it's biologicalfamily or acquired family
(22:35):
through friends, closefriendships and relationships.
I think that latter part isreally one of the critical.
Things I see in people who copebetter in these settings that
otherwise are really theantithesis of home.
Um, so, um, inmates of jails andprisons, um, who, who have in
(22:55):
that setting developed afunctional network, not only
with fellow inmates, but alsomaybe some of the staff who work
in those facilities.
And, and that becomes theircommunity.
Uh, they tend to do better.
Um, then those whounderstandably reject the whole
thing and, and don't accept it.
So, but, but the ones who copeand do better again, it's sort
(23:16):
of like, what did I learn fromthe refugees?
You know, I learned, uh,adaptability, uh, coping
mechanisms, but also, you know,over the years when I was in
particularly full time treatinginmate patients, you know, I, I
learned a lot Uh, seeing theworld through their perspective
on how they coped.
And you know, those who did copewell on those who didn't.
And you learn from both.
(23:37):
You learn the ones who arestruggling, they can't, uh,
quite find any sort of peace,you, you say, okay, well, the
things you're doing are maybenot as helpful, uh, but you're,
you can be struck by, um, Uh,seeing people really functioning
and, and making meaning of theirlife and, and rather extreme
circumstances.
And some of these techniques we,we, we, we've just been
(23:58):
referring to, but yourrelationships, being open to
invest in new relationships withall the risk that's involved
with that, being open to explorerelationships with people who
are very different than you.
It's another thing I think mostpeople are hesitant to do, but
you and I share that, uh, atyoung ages, we had the
opportunity To live in placesthat were unfamiliar with us.
(24:22):
And we were kind of forced tolearn how to do that
Daniel Rock (24:25):
Yup.
Yup.
Scott (24:27):
was easier for us going forward.
Daniel Rock (24:32):
And I think that's an interesting, you know, as a,
someone who does not have thatexperience or lens and you see
how things are portrayed inmedia and, and those sorts of
things.
And you look at someone in anincarceration situation and you
go, well, why do people joingangs?
And why do people, you know, dothis?
And actually, when you thinkabout it, you get it because
(24:52):
they have, you have to replacethat.
Yes.
There's, there's simple and.
You know, protection andwhatever you might want to talk
about decision, but actuallyeven outside of prison, when you
look at under, you know, underprivileged communities and
people do it, it's because theymay not have that family network
support network.
And
Scott (25:08):
That's right.
Daniel Rock (25:09):
when you're in a situation that I've been, I'm
very privileged, you know, comefrom a privileged upbringing.
You know, I'm very conscious asa middle aged white man, I'm
about the most privileged beingon earth.
Um, and I've had opportunitiesthat have been given to me that,
you know, Perhaps don't existelsewhere.
And then when you don't havethose secure networks and those
family networks and thoseopportunities, you do look for
(25:31):
that sense of belonging, whichis, you know, a sense of home in
any way you can find it.
And so that's how I, you know,you kind of have to make that
leap.
And I'm not sure everyone hasthat sense of empathy to
understand why people do thesethings.
Scott (25:44):
I think you're correct.
I think it's one of the thefundamental drivers of human
behavior and human nature thatwe all do.
Yeah, I'd say the vast vastmajority of us have a have a
deep drive to want to belong.
I think the other thing when Ithink of the home concept, which
is again why I think this issuch a great frame for the
conversation, is Is, you know,before we put it in that frame,
(26:07):
I would have described myjourney as sort of looking for a
certain kind of peace that therewas inner turmoil.
And I was just trying to lookfor some sort of peace, but
peace is very closely related tothis concept of home.
You know, what, you know, whatdoes home hearken back to?
Yeah.
Again, I started by saying mychildhood up through age 10, you
know, was, was very nurturing,very warm, very pleasant, you
(26:31):
know, to some extent, eventhough after my trauma, That
very same setting no longer.
Provided everything I needed.
I was trying to return to thatfeeling of security, peace,
security, warmth, love,connectedness.
So these are things that, that,um, I think we're all always
(26:52):
searching for.
And the interesting thing, ifwe're, Given opportunities like
you and I have had, and even inthe example of, you know, people
who are detained andincarcerated, forced into
situations where they have to,um, these are the, the basic
things that we're still lookingfor.
And, and some of these extremeexamples teach us.
(27:13):
Can be found under the mostextreme circumstances,
Daniel Rock (27:17):
Uh, and yeah, and it's, it's an interesting one in
terms of whole premise.
As I've done more of theseepisodes, everyone's journey is
different.
What everyone finds or thephysicality of home is very,
very different for everybody.
But the sense is tends to wantto feel the same.
(27:38):
It's, I want to feel safe.
I want to feel.
Like I belong, I want that senseof peace or sense of calm.
Now that's different foreverybody.
And I remember
Scott (27:48):
right?
Right.
Daniel Rock (27:48):
recorded my first episode of this podcast, I was
sitting in my local bar having abeer and I've mentioned this
before on the show, but, itgoes, well, home's just where
you sleep and it's where you'reheading.
I said, well, for you, yes, butif
Scott (28:00):
Yeah,
Daniel Rock (28:02):
undergoing domestic abuse or someone who is scared
that will not feel like home.
It might be the
Scott (28:08):
that's right.
Daniel Rock (28:09):
but you don't feel safe.
And you'd want really, you wantto be anywhere, but there, would
you still consider that home?
And it goes, I hadn't reallythought of it that way, because
you have that, you only haveyour lens, right?
And I think that's one of thethings I find fascinating about
your story and journey is youseen so many different lenses.
terms of what that means, itgives you a different
(28:31):
perspective on your own kind of
Scott (28:33):
Mm hmm.
Daniel Rock (28:34):
home is.
Scott (28:35):
Absolutely Yeah, I mean and the other thing that that
you know You have actually livedmore internationally than I have
but at least I can share thatperspective from the somewhat
three years I lived in Thailand,but I but since returned the
United States in continuing towork with refugee populations
including Very closerelationships with some of the
(28:56):
first refugees I met 44 yearsago.
They're still very close to mein my life.
You know, watching this story,that's his oldest time as people
settle here and start their, theespecially younger generation,
start their families here.
Now there's this tension.
A story as old as time, is whereis home?
Is home my home country?
(29:19):
Or is home here now?
And, and it's sort of inbetween, uh, depending on where
you are in the generationaldivide, but, uh, that's
fascinating to me as well,because it, it, it, people have
all these highly individualizedstories of, How they're trying
to define what, what is homereally?
(29:40):
I know Cambodians who have beenhere for over 40 years, who
still say no.
Cambodia is still home.
I, if I, maybe I can get backthere.
Maybe I want to return there.
I can't yet.
That's still home.
Others say, well, no, Cambodiawas home, but home is here now.
And everything in between peoplesay, well, no, I got, you know.
I, I have ties to both.
I'm never quite at home now inone place or the other.
(30:01):
I think that's very common inthe immigrant experience.
That also fascinates me becausethere's just, again, millions of
different coping strategies onhow you now deal with this
disjointed physicality of home.
Daniel Rock (30:15):
yeah, and I'd agree with that.
Like it's a really difficult,it's something that I struggle
with identifying at times myselfbecause obviously I grew up.
You know, until my earlytwenties in the UK.
And I think part of me wouldalways say, well, the UK is
home.
That's where I'm from.
And like England, if it comes tosport, I support English
(30:35):
football team, cricket
Scott (30:36):
Yeah.
Daniel Rock (30:37):
you know, that's, that, that's what I do.
You know, that's, that's kind ofmy mindset, I'd never go back
and live there.
That doesn't feel like a home Iwould ever go back to live in.
And I think that's a slightlyodd concept where of New
Zealand, which is my connectionto New Zealand is really through
longevity.
I lived there for the, the mostof my adult life before I moved
(30:59):
here, but I don't have family.
I have some wonderful friendswho I miss dearly, but I don't
have roots there per se.
But that's probably the place Iwould say emotionally feels most
like home in terms of that,whereas I think as I spend more
time here and obviously as mydaughter grows up here and I
build networks here, I can seethat transitioning to where I am
(31:21):
now, but it is a kind of whatopened my eyes up to being such
a fluid concept because I don'tthink
Scott (31:28):
Right, right.
Daniel Rock (31:28):
a permanent thing.
It is to me.
And I think you can catch likethat.
There is a lot of fluidity tohome is and where do we go?
And those sort of things.
Um, I kind of just want to sortof touch on a couple more things
before, before we wrap up, justfinishing off sort of your
journey a little bit more.
Just, um, we've talked a littlebit about the immigration
detention centers and thingslike that.
(31:51):
I'd love to hear a little bitmore about how you got involved
with that and kind of yourexperiences there.
Scott (31:58):
Well, um, it's related to the career I built in working in
health care in, um, jails andprisons, um, and, and became,
you know, in the, in the nichethat it is, uh, well known in
that field.
And, Um, so I actually wasreproached by, um, the
government, um, and when theyneeded expertise in assessing
(32:20):
the quality of medical care indetention settings.
Um, so, you know, it really sortof flowed naturally from the
work that I did.
And of course, when theopportunity arose, I was very
interested in it because, uh,again, I had started my whole
career in refugee work.
So, um, it seemed, um,interesting.
familiar and of interest to me.
So that, you know, that's how Istarted doing that work.
(32:40):
I do that, uh, as an expertconsultant for the federal
government, um, and makeperiodic visits to detention
centers and evaluate them and,uh, give the government
feedback,
Daniel Rock (32:51):
So I don't want to touch on politics cause it's
very, there's a very big, um,can of worms right now.
Um, particularly, particularlyin the U S, but I suppose the
thing I would like to talk aboutthat is your experience with the
people, um, in, in, in thosecenters and kind of what their
experiences are and how you feelwith them.
(33:12):
What's your perception of theirperception of high math?
That's probably a bit of aconvoluted question,
Scott (33:16):
Yep.
Well, I get it.
I think we were talking about ita little bit earlier in the
conversation.
Um, you know, first thing Iwould say is, you know, when I,
when I follow as it's on, weought to unavoidably do, it's a
worldwide conversation aboutmigration, displacement and what
opportunities and rights peopleshould have, um, as it relates
(33:36):
to immigration.
Um, I think the biggest thingthat gets lost, um, And the
discussion is sort of thehumanity of it.
I always say that people who,you know, know I do this type of
work and, and, and whether I askthem to or not, they often
volunteer their opinions on animmigration law.
I just say, I wish you couldtalk to some of the individual
(33:59):
people that I get to talk to andhear individual stories.
Instead of hearing these broad,sweeping, often inaccurate
characterizations, um, that sodominate the public discourse,
you know, they're people.
And again, you know, I think itwould surprise people that, uh,
sure, there are people who mightbe doing, uh, you know, trying
(34:20):
to come to any developed countryfor, you might say, purely
opportunistic reasons.
But, but more often than not,they're people who didn't want
to leave their home.
situation.
They got displaced from it, um,and usually in very compelling
and desperate circumstances, anddon't even really want to
permanently reside in, in a hostcountry.
(34:42):
They're, they're just trying toescape something, uh, at least
for the moment.
Um, so, uh, again, I, I, it'ssort of not, it's, it's
analogous to I was happy in myhome until something.
Bad happened and then it didn'twork anymore.
And, and I had to move forward.
Daniel Rock (35:02):
Yeah.
Scott (35:02):
I think that's often what's going on.
Um, and I just, I do wish ashuman beings, we would get
beyond broad strokecharacterizations of any groups
of people and try more often tohear stories.
You would do what you're doing.
I mean, people telling theirstories.
That's where, where we learnedthe nuance.
As you said, the conversationyou had in the bar, the other
(35:24):
fellow just hadn't thought ofthat perspective, but you know,
uh, someone feeling unsafe intheir home is actually far too
common.
Lucky for us, if we haven'texperienced it, but don't ignore
it or not be aware of it, thatthat's what motivates some
people, right?
Right,
Daniel Rock (35:40):
we, you know, just touching on that part, it's that
whichever side of the spectrumpolitically you, you sit on, I
think there's a real danger thatwe do get into that.
Everyone in this bubble is likethis and everyone in that bubble
is like this and you're right,it's losing that humanity and
it's really interesting when tokind of use a little bit of.
(36:03):
An example, concealing enough ofit should not be real.
Um, in that you hear of peopleto say, Oh, you know, you know,
I don't want undocumented peoplecoming here.
I don't want this.
I don't want that.
And when you say, well, so andso is undocumented.
You want to send them home?
Oh, not them.
Scott (36:18):
right, right, right.
Yeah.
And they're at the people.
They know the people they knowas people, a category or, or, or
a sort of, uh, You know, a twodimensional, uh, image of, of
some group of people that's, youknow, it's to some level
dehumanized.
Well, that's easy to say.
Well, I'm sorry, we can't helpeverybody.
You know, but, but I agree withyou.
(36:39):
You start to look around andsay, well, did you, you might
not have realized, but someonewho is involved in your life,
who you care about, who youthink is a very decent person,
Also happens to be in asituation where they don't have
a document.
Well, yeah, well, no, no, no,no, they're, they're fine.
They, they, they should be ableto.
So, yeah, I think it's that lackof personal connection, lack of
being able, um, to relate to,um, individuals.
(37:02):
Now the, the, the gift of myperspective, my career is even
though I go in and look atprograms, I do one on one
interviews over the course of mycareer.
I've done thousands uponthousands of one on one
conversations with individuals.
Tell me your story.
Yeah.
I have that perspective.
So I don't look at the numbersand just see numbers.
I have a great sense of theindividuality, um, the heart,
(37:26):
the soul that that's behindthose numbers.
Daniel Rock (37:29):
I think, you know, whether or not he said it or not
is somewhat debatable, but the,the Starling quote, which is,
you know, the death of anindividual is a tragedy, the
death of a million is astatistic.
Scott (37:39):
Right.
Daniel Rock (37:40):
we run the risk of.
Doing that in these examples,you make everything a statistic
and it becomes very easy todehumanize and depersonalize
that whole experience.
When actually, if you start, asyou've done, you know, going out
and listening to the stories andtalking to the individuals, you
humanize that.
And then I think if more peoplewere able to do that, or at
least to people that have,they'd be able to humanize that
(38:02):
whole experience of people inthose situations and understand
that they're just.
People like us, they're not anydifferent.
They have the same wants andneeds and desires, and they're
just in a less privilegedsituation more often than not.
Scott (38:16):
That's right.
And I think, you know, thechallenge is, let's be honest,
in a world that overwhelms usall, it's easier to have a two
dimensional view of humanity,especially people who are
different.
It's a, it's a coping strategy.
So I, I can see why it happens,but I think you and I would say
the flip side is the rewardreward.
(38:37):
reward.
of learning and getting to knowpeople who are culturally or
geographically or nationallydifferent than you are.
Um, if you can bridge that gap,the reward is immense.
Daniel Rock (38:50):
I agree.
And I'll finish on just a smallstory from my life that kind of
gave me a little bit of thatperspective.
I was, I want to say 14 andagain, very lucky with my
childhood background.
And my parents took me onholiday to a place called the
Gambia, which is a tiny littlestrip of land in West Africa.
It's actually completelysurrounded by Senegal.
(39:11):
And, um, there was one of thestaff, my local staff members
that worked at the hotel was ranthrough the games hut where they
let you out tennis rackets and,you know, footballs and stuff
like that.
And I got changed.
It was probably 18, 19 young,young guy.
And we were chatting.
He said, Oh, we've got afootball match tonight.
If you want to come watch thefootball match.
And again, my parents beingincredibly trust me that, yeah,
(39:33):
you can go with this person thatyou've met just at the hotel to
a football stadium where wedon't know where it is
completely fine.
so me and another kid from thehotel, we went to watch this
football matches, giant stadiumbuilt by China that could have
held 55, 000 people and probablyhad 300 people in it.
And he said, Oh, do you want tosee where I live?
And literally it was acorrugated iron shack in a small
(39:54):
village, kids playing footballwith a old ball that had no
leather left on it.
you get that perspective of thatpoint in going with, and he was
like one of the happiest peopleI'd ever met.
And so it isn't about.
Necessary to material items orthings.
It's the circumstances and thethings you've done.
And it was, you know, awonderful experience and I had a
great time.
And I think that shaped a lot ofmy viewpoints as I've got older.
(40:14):
And like, you have to pushyourself outside of your bubble
because if you only exist inyour bubble and in your echo
chamber, you're never going tolearn or experience all that the
world and life have to offer toyou.
You're just gonna have this verymyopic view of the world that I
don't think does anyone.
You don't have to travel to dothis.
You can do this by just talkingto people.
You wouldn't normally talk to
Scott (40:35):
Well, you know, I,
Daniel Rock (40:36):
expand your, expand your circle of influence.
Scott (40:39):
I want to jump on that because my story, you know, your
story, we, of course, we'veacknowledged we had advantages,
privileges, but we were able totravel at fairly young ages and
have our eyes opened, but thatwas back when it literally
required traveling, getting on aplane and flying somewhere.
And in one of thedisappointments of modern
technology that we were talkingabout before, The podcast
(41:02):
started is that you can actuallyeasily connect and have
conversations with peopleinternationally, uh, through the
internet.
And yet, uh, people don't eventake advantage of that.
And we spend most of our time insilly little news feeds of
garbage, you know, and guilty ascharged, and we all get sucked
(41:23):
into it because there's thesevery powerful algorithms
Daniel Rock (41:25):
Instagram or tick
Scott (41:26):
us.
But,
Daniel Rock (41:28):
Mm hmm.
Scott (41:39):
that I was practicing my Cambodian with.
It was simply a language appthat simply connected you with a
teacher in another country for avery small amount of money by U
S standards.
You could get a private tutoriallesson.
But the thing that was great forme is like, I was.
I was having conversations withregular people in some, you
know, village in Cambodia whowere teachers by day and as a
side jumped on this platform toteach so that, you know, you
(42:02):
don't have to have a lot ofmoney.
You, an internet connectioncould get you a conversation
with someone halfway around theworld if you, if you put a
little effort into it.
Daniel Rock (42:10):
And I think that's exactly right.
The internet is probably one ofthe best and worst things that's
happened to society same boat.
And I think if we spend lesstime on it, screaming into echo
chambers as to why we hatesomething and more time and
reaching out and connecting, Ithink it'd be a better place.
Scott (42:26):
Well, I mean, so this, this type of conversation that
Daniel Rock (42:29):
this podcast.
Scott (42:31):
right.
Absolutely correct.
So, um, it's, it's been a realpleasure conversing with you.
I love what you're doing andwe'll follow you with interest.
Daniel Rock (42:40):
Brilliant.
Thank you so much, um, Scott.
And again, Dr.
Scott Allen, um, his book, whichwas released in March of 2024,
um, is called across a bridge offire, which is showing on screen
right now.
I will put a link to that in theshow notes so everyone can do
that.
And again, thank you for tuningin to wherever I lay my hat.
This has been a fantasticconversation.
(43:01):
I've really enjoyed it.
If you've got a story that youwould like to share and share
your perception of home and howthings are for you, I'd love to
hear from you.
So please reach out.
Um, my email address is just Danat wherever I lay my hat.
com, or you can visit thewebsite, which is wherever I lay
my hat.
com and reach us out there.
So thank you so much.
And again, thank you so much.
Scott, it's been a greatpleasure.
Scott (43:21):
Pleasure is mine.
Welcome to wherever I lay my hat, a podcast about
the concept of home.
Um, this week's guest is Dr.
Scott Allen, who is a physician,author, and professor emeritus
at the university of California,Riverside.
He is internationally recognizedin the field of health and human
rights.
Most recently for helping bringattention to the conditions of
children in us immigrationdetention, which is work.
(00:26):
He received, uh an award alongwith 2019, the ride and how a
palate prize.
Hopefully I've said thatcorrectly.
And the physicians for humanrights award.
memoir about surviving achildhood burn injury and
subsequent journey as a teenagerto the war torn Cambodian border
across a bridge of firepublished in March 2024.
And I'll make sure there's alink to that in our show notes.
(00:49):
He's also appeared on CBS 60minutes, CNN and multiple NPR
programs.
And his op eds have appeared inthe Washington post USA today
and the international HeraldTribune.
And I'm honored to have him as aguest today.
Scott (01:03):
Thank you, Daniel.
It's my pleasure to be with you.
Happy to be here.
Daniel Rock (01:07):
And look, that's a fascinating, um, background.
Um, and I'm really excited toexplore of that with you today
or a lot of that with you today.
So I'd love to hear a little bitsort of, if we start maybe from
the beginning really, and alittle bit around your
background and how you got intodoing the things you do and
yeah, if you could just sort ofgive us a little bit of a
(01:29):
introduction, it would bewonderful.
Scott (01:31):
Terrific.
Well, I was born and raised inConnecticut, in northwestern
Connecticut.
Um, uh, a, uh, suburbancommunity, um, uh, basically a
comfortable middle classupbringing.
Um, and all was good.
Uh, however, at age 10, um, mybrother and I were lighting a
(01:55):
fire.
We were using gasoline as anaccelerant, and, uh, the fumes
were ignited and the gas canexploded, uh, sending a, a
flamethrower like gust in mydirection.
And I suffered, uh, third degreeburns over about a third of my
body.
Ended up, um, hospitalizedthrough, uh, much of the latter
(02:18):
half of 1972.
Um, and, uh, then returned backto my suburban setting as a 10
year old child, but now foreverchanged by the experience.
Of the trauma and a burnhospital.
So that's, we can, and we canexplore that some more, but I'm
just trying to set up theframework.
(02:38):
Um, that, you know, we'retalking, uh, we'll be talking
today about a journey, but also,you know, trying to find home.
Um, it's just an interestingframe for me to think about this
story.
Uh, because I, I had a wonderfulhome.
I really had no problems with myhome, but after that, Obviously
life changing incident, um,there began a new search for,
(03:01):
for something called home and itwas a, it was a long and
interesting path.
Um, so, uh, I, I appreciate theframework you're using for this
podcast.
Cause it allows me to think ofthe story in a slightly
different way than I usuallytell it.
Daniel Rock (03:17):
Yeah, I'd be just touch on that and we can touch
on it a little bit more as we goforward.
But just and obviously sometimeshard to put yourself back into
your 10 year old 11 year oldmind because obviously the world
is very different as a child.
But obviously home is notsomething you necessarily think
of as a child.
Like, is this safe?
Not safe.
It's just what it is.
(03:38):
Did do you think it's probably abetter way of asking that
question?
Do you think The accidentchanged your feeling of how home
was to you.
Did home feel less safe?
Did it, did it change that wholeperception for you?
Do you think,
Scott (03:53):
Yeah, it certainly changed my perception and you
know, it's interesting.
I don't think I thought of homeas being less safe.
Interestingly enough, but I, Iprematurely got to that point
that I think more typicallypeople get to in their late
teens, early twenties where Ifeel like.
Felt that home no longer hadeverything I needed, um, that I
(04:14):
was, uh, prematurely exposed toa much bigger world with much
more serious issues, you know,and awareness of things that
most 10 year olds don't have,um, quite simply suffering, um,
death, the lack of safety that,that, you know, my parents did
nothing wrong in, uh, in, inthat my brother and I got into
(04:34):
something we shouldn't have.
I mean, So many children do thesame, despite the best effort of
parents.
Um, but I, but I understoodthat, that nobody could really
keep me safe, that the world wasfull of risk.
Um, and really between 10 and17, when I finally leave home to
go across the world and searchfor answers.
(04:56):
Um, it was, it was feeling thathome no longer at, in that, at
that time, at that stage in mylife.
It no longer had what I needed.
Daniel Rock (05:06):
okay,
Scott (05:07):
And it wasn't because it wasn't because, you know, my, my
wonderful parents are stillalive today.
Really the best parents,siblings, the whole thing, it
had the whole normal package,but I had now, uh, was
experiencing some new questionsthat I had to look further.
Daniel Rock (05:23):
so 17, it's a big step.
Even if you were 10, so likelate seventies.
Early eighties is a big tie.
Even back then going overseas at17 is a pretty big call.
Um, show some big trust on yourparents side.
I think I was, I would suggest,but talk to me a little bit
about that.
Kind of where, why, why at 17,did you go?
(05:45):
I think you've touched a littlebit on that, but also what made
the decisions of where to go andobviously Cambodia.
And there was a lot going on inthe seventies and eighties in
Cambodia.
So it'd be really interesting tohear some of that.
Scott (05:56):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Um, and, and, and in fact, youknow, the, the book, uh, one of
the reasons I wrote it, um, is.
For now 44 years.
People ask the very questionlike, what was going on in your
head?
You picked up at 17.
And by the way, my parents veryunderstanding, I, I did not go
with their knowledge.
They got a collect call from thegeneral post office in Thailand
(06:18):
to their utter shock that I wasalready there.
Um, but what was going on?
So, you know, the context foryour listeners, particularly
younger listeners.
So, you know, the Vietnam War,uh, the American involvement in
the Vietnam War, that'sbasically the period from 1965
to 1973.
The war ends after Americanwithdrawal in 1975.
(06:41):
So this is something I'm growingup, uh, exposed to on the
television.
We have neighbors who serve, um,uh, people in our community who
are prisoners of war.
Um, and when I got burned, I wascared for by a, uh, general
surgeon who had just returnedfrom a tour of duty on a burn
ward in Vietnam.
So, uh, I had an awareness ofVietnam, but, um, What was
(07:07):
happening in the news by thetime 1979 rolls around, in the
fall of 1979, that is when theVietnamese invaded neighboring
Cambodia and overthrew the KhmerRouge regime.
The Khmer Rouge had taken overin 1975 and undertook a radical
(07:27):
revolution, not unlike theCultural Revolution, but maybe
even more radical.
Daniel Rock (07:33):
well, possibly one of the five most evil people
that's probably ever existed.
Um,
Scott (07:39):
Correct.
Daniel Rock (07:40):
there's a,
Scott (07:41):
Yes.
Daniel Rock (07:42):
very thought provoking book and there's a
movie made of it, but I'drecommend people read the book,
which is obviously KillingFields, which is all about the
Pol Pot regime and Khmer Rougein Cambodia, which is an awesome
read.
And
Scott (07:53):
And
Daniel Rock (07:53):
yeah, that's,
Scott (07:54):
very important, uh, uh, well, the, the original story by
Sidney Schamberg of hisrelationship with Dithbron and
then the movie, uh, that isreally quite outstanding.
By the way, as an aside, uh,while you're making a
recommendation for that movie,uh, Myself who was there in
those camps and many of myCambodian friends, um, would
vouch for the authenticity ofthat music movie and the
(08:17):
accuracy.
So, uh, it's a really importantone.
Yeah.
Anyway, the, what was happeningin October of 1979 is the first
refugees escaping the KhmerRouge made it to the Thai
Cambodian border.
And it was the headline.
It was the headline for at leasta few months, um, Starving
Refugees Crossing Into Thailand.
And, you know, I had beenpercolating feeling that, you
know, love my parents, love mycommunity, um, but something was
(08:40):
missing.
I felt just compelled to notpick up and read a newspaper.
Um, or learn this news and feellike, no, that's not related to
me.
That's not connected.
I felt very connected.
Um, and I had no illusions thatI had anything to offer.
I was 17, hadn't finished highschool, didn't even have like an
emergency medical techniciantraining and had nothing to
offer, but, uh, bought a one wayticket and got myself to
(09:04):
Thailand and, and showed up onthe doorstep of, uh, an agency
and managed to, uh, convincethem to take me on as a
volunteer worker headed for theborder.
Um, And the story goes on from,from there.
So, um, but again, where westarted, you know, I, I think
the common way.
(09:26):
If I'm briefly telling some ofthe stories, I ran away from
home at 17 to go to theCambodian border, but it's
slightly misleading because Iwasn't running away from
something so much as I wasrunning towards something.
And as crazy as it all sounds,and as young as I was, um, it's
one of these moments in life.
My intuition was 110 percentcorrect.
(09:48):
I, I did find what I was lookingfor.
In terms of meaning, um, thebeginning of answers, a path
forward in my life that, soreally a pivotal point in my
life, ended up working on theborder that first trip for nine
months, um, and then wouldreturn.
So over the next five yearsworked in the refugee program in
(10:09):
Thailand, um, on and off for atotal of about three years.
And, uh, at the end of thatfirst, um, tour, while still 17,
I was actually hired by the U Sembassy.
So it's sort of a.
Unlikely story.
Um, and all this eventually led,I eventually returned to the
United States and pursued acareer in medicine and human
(10:30):
rights and as much that follows.
But, you know, we're reallyfocusing on, or at least now in
the book and in our conversationso far on that critical period
of searching for the truth.
For answers, um, searching for asort of now new, different
definition of home, um, and howI, I find it in the most
(10:51):
unlikely of places a refugeecamp on the Thai Cambodian
border.
Daniel Rock (10:55):
And that's really interesting.
Was that much of that was yourexperience of being amongst that
environment and how much of thatis you seeing the experience of
others having their, you know,their world has been changed,
right?
That home was one thing forthem.
And now we're in a refugee camp.
They have no permanent home.
(11:15):
How did their experiences, andwe probably talk a little bit
about this later on when we talkabout the people trying to get
into the U S as well, but thatwhole Being in a displaced
persons camp or refugee camp,how does that change your
perception, or did it changeyour perception of home and what
that means?
Scott (11:30):
No, absolutely it did.
You know, I think one of thebiggest misconceptions about a
lot of migration that's not donefor, I mean, you know, we both
come from affluent societies.
Generally, if you move toanother country, it's because
you have an opportunity or itsounds exciting or you want to
try it.
Yeah.
But so often migration is peoplewho never wanted to leave their
home.
In fact, they liked everythingabout their home, but things
(11:51):
happened, external thingshappened, um, economically,
politically, um, safety, allthese things can, uh, be
threatened and be unsettled.
And then reluctantly, they go insearch for a new home.
I think that kind of perspectiveis missing.
Well, here we were with, um, youknow, Cambodians, uh, Who
certainly wanted to escape theviolence and oppression of the
(12:14):
Khmer Rouge regime, but they'dbe just as quick to tell you
before the Khmer Rouge came topower.
The power, they loved Cambodia.
They loved their life inCambodia.
There was some, there was a homethere that got destroyed and
they weren't necessarily lookingto come to Canada, France,
United States, Australia.
They were looking for safety, aplace to, you know, to secure
(12:35):
themselves for the moment.
And indeed many, um, have eitherreturned to Cambodia or visit
Cambodia again, you know, allthese years later.
Um, but you're absolutelycorrect.
Why did I find what I waslooking for?
Uh, well.
I had immediately so many peoplewho had been more traumatized
than I had, whose lives had beenmore disrupted, uh, than mine
(12:58):
had been, but they were, uh,literally modeling, um, how to
deal with adversity, how to dealwith change.
And, and already in this bamboostructured tenuous mined border,
narrow strip of land, the firstcamp I was in was called my
(13:18):
root, it was.
The southernmost Cambodianrefugee camp that was at the
base of the mountains betweenCambodia and Thailand and then a
little short strip of landbefore you got to the ocean.
Really precarious placeconsidering in the mountains
were both Vietnamese troops,Khmer Rouge troops, And, and
along the Thai border, the Thaitroops, it was very militarily,
(13:39):
very vulnerable, um, and yetpeople were making that camp in
that moment, their home, I mean,they were modifying, you know,
the, the, the relief agenciescame and put up some bamboo
structures really quickly, but.
But they were adding, you know,little things to their living
spaces, personalizing them, um,reconfiguring and reconstructing
(14:04):
their families.
Very devastated, separated, um,many people dead.
So families weren't necessarilythe biological family.
They were often adopting peoplethey met along the way, um, and
restructuring and forming a, a,a new, So I was really, uh,
being shown, uh, right up close,uh, people overcoming tremendous
(14:28):
adversity with, with a lot ofvery good coping skills.
So yeah, that had a profoundinfluence on how I Viewed my own
situation, how I viewed theworld.
Daniel Rock (14:40):
And would you say that, was it that, I suppose the
next question for me sort oftouches to the next stage of
your journey, I suppose, is thatexperience in Thailand at the
refugee camps, was that a directcorrelation to you then wanting
to go and study medicine?
Or was that already somethingthat was in your head and it
just confirmed that?
Interested to understand thatnext
Scott (15:02):
Yeah.
No, the, the, the kernel of theidea to go into medicine clearly
came for me, uh, from myexperience as a patient in the
burn hospital.
Um, and in fact, people knewthat when I, I did, you know,
it's impulsive as I was inrunning away and going to
Thailand with no job securedahead of time.
Um, people who knew I wanted todo something to help were
(15:25):
urging.
You know, patients and cautionsaying like, why don't you
pursue, you want to be a doctor,go educate yourself, be a
doctor.
When you're a doctor, you couldreally help people.
That's when you should go.
It's just that, you know, you'reyoung, you're impatient.
I said, you know, the Cambodianborder is happening now and I
can't ignore it, but itobviously reinforced, uh, my
(15:46):
desire to go on and, and gettraining where I could be even
more helpful.
You know, we we've glossed over.
What did I do when I got, youknow, a relief team, uh, took
pity on me.
I gotta be honest with you.
I mean, I think people werestruck that this young kid got
himself out there and they said,well, you know, hop in the van,
(16:07):
we'll send you out with ourteam.
So I, I really was doing sort ofodd jobs that most of which
could have been done by localpeople, refugees themselves, or
local Thai workers.
Um, and I was keenly aware that,you know, I looked around and
saw the people that were reallybeing helpful and they tended to
be people with experience andtraining and so forth.
So that just reinforced that,okay, this has been good for me.
(16:28):
And I, and eventually I was ableto find a meaningful role when I
got hired by the U.
S.
Embassy and was able to processrefugee applications and help
people move forward, um, whichdidn't require a whole lot of
skill.
It was on the job training, um,and, you know, task wise, fairly
basic work, um, of, of recordingpeople's histories, filling out
forms for them.
(16:48):
Um, but, uh, that, yeah, did,did I see there that, like, I
really needed to go back, pursuemy education, and, and get some
skills that would actually beuseful in these situations?
And so, yeah, that propelled me.
As hard and long as medicaltraining is, I, I never, You
know, had any second thoughts ordoubts about it?
Daniel Rock (17:08):
Okay.
And was that always the plan touse your medical training in
that way?
So obviously medical training ismedical school and then there's
residency and specializationsand whether you go into surgery,
general practice, was your planalways to go into that?
And I wouldn't excuse myignorance, know what the
terminology for that style ofmedicine would be, but was that
(17:28):
always the plan?
No.
Scott (17:31):
the plan very explicitly the plan and for really the next
10 years of my life.
I pursued a very tailorededucational track supported by
really good mentors to beSomeone who was going to have a
great impact in internationalhealth and then life happens And
in my case, literally, uh, weeksbefore I finished my specialized
(17:53):
10 year training track ininternational health, um, my
first child was born with severeand profound developmental
disabilities.
And the idea of living in thethird world just vanished in an
instant.
Um, so, but this is everyone'slife, right?
I mean, you're, you make yourplans and then you react to what
happens, which is actually, youknow, I, you know, at 62 years
(18:16):
old, I'm not.
Unhappy about that.
And it keeps things interesting.
If you could plan your life at17 and have it all work out in
some ways that would be, um,less rewarding.
So, you know, I, I then had toadapt and, and that's when I
switched and did some work incommunity health centers in the
Mississippi Delta, uh, but then.
(18:37):
Um, had an opportunity to workin the, um, jails and prisons
correctional health field, whichhad some overlap from refugee
work, um, and, and did that.
But that eventually led its wayback to doing work, um, in, uh,
immigration detention.
So there is some coming fullcircle because, you know, now at
the end of my career, I am backinvolved, uh, in part of my
(19:00):
work.
Um, with, uh, people who are,you know, again, as we said,
effectively refugees, we willnot make that a legal
definition, but in the commonsense of the word, people who
are displaced from their homes,who are trying to find a new
home.
Daniel Rock (19:15):
Yeah.
And I appreciate what you'resaying in those six of them.
I, one of the reasons we arewhere we are.
So we moved from New Zealand toBirmingham and Alabama, which is
necessarily a route that thatmany people take.
but part of ours was driven bythe same thing.
So we, I had my daughter lastyear, and And she was born with
a congenital heart defect and
Scott (19:37):
Okay.
Daniel Rock (19:37):
of a fairly rare version of down syndrome called
mosaic down syndrome.
So
Scott (19:41):
Yes.
Daniel Rock (19:42):
there's a, a nice piece of uncertainty around what
her development will look likegoing forward and look for us.
Neither us had family in NewZealand.
Now we both had wonderful friendnetworks of people that cared
for us deeply and that weregreat resource.
But it's a little different tobeing around family and having
piece.
And not designed to be apolitical, um, podcast.
(20:06):
But for various reasons, thesouth in the U.
S.
Because incredibly conservativearea, there's a higher
percentage of down syndromebabies born than there isn't
perhaps somewhere like NewZealand, which is a lot more
liberal, which means there'smore resource.
So they've got a specialist downsyndrome clinic here.
There's
Scott (20:20):
Yep.
Good.
Daniel Rock (20:21):
centers.
So for us, it was yes, beingclose to family was important.
But also, as you sort ofmentioned, being where You know,
having a young childdevelopmental issues in a place
where there isn't perhaps thatnetwork set up to support that.
That was part of the decision tocome here.
Now, my wife's from here, whichmakes it a lot easier for us to
do that, but I totally get the,know, that whole thing.
(20:43):
That was not the plan.
You know, we were thinking ofcoming to the US for a few
years, but it was likely to beAtlanta or Charlotte or,
Scott (20:49):
Sure.
Daniel Rock (20:50):
Nashville or somewhere like that.
Birmingham probably wasn't onthe original list.
Um, but, you know, we're veryfortunate in Birmingham.
It's got some great hospitals,some great,
Scott (20:58):
Absolutely.
Yes.
Daniel Rock (20:59):
things like that.
And I kind of want to touch onone of the other things you sort
of mentioned there, which was,you know, working in the
correction and stuff like that.
That's a whole nother concept ofhome that, you know, that's a,
they're not at home and thatisn't quite by choice.
How does that, how did that kindof shape your thinking of what
(21:20):
people do to adapt and, andthrive or struggle in those
environments?
Yup.
Scott (21:27):
in, you know, there's, there's a couple of settings
we've talked about that aredetention settings, the refugee
camps being one.
Immigration detention in the U.
S.
context is slightly different.
It's more, more like thecarceral system and then
criminal justice, you know, ofthose, um, they're all quite
different and have their ownpressures.
Um, and I, and I think thatnobody would ever say, They were
(21:49):
at home in any of those, butcircumstance force people,
particularly if the detention isprolonged to do something, to
make it a home.
And it really cuts to the bone,um, the essence of, of how do
you, um, cope and make someplaceyour home.
And you start to realize that Ithink you've hit on some of
these things.
So first of all, the mostimportant thing is I think is
(22:12):
sort of an internal Um, anchoryour feelings about what home
is.
Um, that those are things youcarry with you.
They move with you where you go.
Uh, when you're young, you don'trealize you possess these
things, but over time theybecome, uh, more clear.
But the second thing that you'vealready touched upon is, is, you
know, whether it's biologicalfamily or acquired family
(22:35):
through friends, closefriendships and relationships.
I think that latter part isreally one of the critical.
Things I see in people who copebetter in these settings that
otherwise are really theantithesis of home.
Um, so, um, inmates of jails andprisons, um, who, who have in
(22:55):
that setting developed afunctional network, not only
with fellow inmates, but alsomaybe some of the staff who work
in those facilities.
And, and that becomes theircommunity.
Uh, they tend to do better.
Um, then those whounderstandably reject the whole
thing and, and don't accept it.
So, but, but the ones who copeand do better again, it's sort
(23:16):
of like, what did I learn fromthe refugees?
You know, I learned, uh,adaptability, uh, coping
mechanisms, but also, you know,over the years when I was in
particularly full time treatinginmate patients, you know, I, I
learned a lot Uh, seeing theworld through their perspective
on how they coped.
And you know, those who did copewell on those who didn't.
And you learn from both.
(23:37):
You learn the ones who arestruggling, they can't, uh,
quite find any sort of peace,you, you say, okay, well, the
things you're doing are maybenot as helpful, uh, but you're,
you can be struck by, um, Uh,seeing people really functioning
and, and making meaning of theirlife and, and rather extreme
circumstances.
And some of these techniques we,we, we, we've just been
(23:58):
referring to, but yourrelationships, being open to
invest in new relationships withall the risk that's involved
with that, being open to explorerelationships with people who
are very different than you.
It's another thing I think mostpeople are hesitant to do, but
you and I share that, uh, atyoung ages, we had the
opportunity To live in placesthat were unfamiliar with us.
(24:22):
And we were kind of forced tolearn how to do that
Daniel Rock (24:25):
Yup.
Yup.
Scott (24:27):
was easier for us going forward.
Daniel Rock (24:32):
And I think that's an interesting, you know, as a,
someone who does not have thatexperience or lens and you see
how things are portrayed inmedia and, and those sorts of
things.
And you look at someone in anincarceration situation and you
go, well, why do people joingangs?
And why do people, you know, dothis?
And actually, when you thinkabout it, you get it because
(24:52):
they have, you have to replacethat.
Yes.
There's, there's simple and.
You know, protection andwhatever you might want to talk
about decision, but actuallyeven outside of prison, when you
look at under, you know, underprivileged communities and
people do it, it's because theymay not have that family network
support network.
And
Scott (25:08):
That's right.
Daniel Rock (25:09):
when you're in a situation that I've been, I'm
very privileged, you know, comefrom a privileged upbringing.
You know, I'm very conscious asa middle aged white man, I'm
about the most privileged beingon earth.
Um, and I've had opportunitiesthat have been given to me that,
you know, Perhaps don't existelsewhere.
And then when you don't havethose secure networks and those
family networks and thoseopportunities, you do look for
(25:31):
that sense of belonging, whichis, you know, a sense of home in
any way you can find it.
And so that's how I, you know,you kind of have to make that
leap.
And I'm not sure everyone hasthat sense of empathy to
understand why people do thesethings.
Scott (25:44):
I think you're correct.
I think it's one of the thefundamental drivers of human
behavior and human nature thatwe all do.
Yeah, I'd say the vast vastmajority of us have a have a
deep drive to want to belong.
I think the other thing when Ithink of the home concept, which
is again why I think this issuch a great frame for the
conversation, is Is, you know,before we put it in that frame,
(26:07):
I would have described myjourney as sort of looking for a
certain kind of peace that therewas inner turmoil.
And I was just trying to lookfor some sort of peace, but
peace is very closely related tothis concept of home.
You know, what, you know, whatdoes home hearken back to?
Yeah.
Again, I started by saying mychildhood up through age 10, you
know, was, was very nurturing,very warm, very pleasant, you
(26:31):
know, to some extent, eventhough after my trauma, That
very same setting no longer.
Provided everything I needed.
I was trying to return to thatfeeling of security, peace,
security, warmth, love,connectedness.
So these are things that, that,um, I think we're all always
(26:52):
searching for.
And the interesting thing, ifwe're, Given opportunities like
you and I have had, and even inthe example of, you know, people
who are detained andincarcerated, forced into
situations where they have to,um, these are the, the basic
things that we're still lookingfor.
And, and some of these extremeexamples teach us.
(27:13):
Can be found under the mostextreme circumstances,
Daniel Rock (27:17):
Uh, and yeah, and it's, it's an interesting one in
terms of whole premise.
As I've done more of theseepisodes, everyone's journey is
different.
What everyone finds or thephysicality of home is very,
very different for everybody.
But the sense is tends to wantto feel the same.
(27:38):
It's, I want to feel safe.
I want to feel.
Like I belong, I want that senseof peace or sense of calm.
Now that's different foreverybody.
And I remember
Scott (27:48):
right?
Right.
Daniel Rock (27:48):
recorded my first episode of this podcast, I was
sitting in my local bar having abeer and I've mentioned this
before on the show, but, itgoes, well, home's just where
you sleep and it's where you'reheading.
I said, well, for you, yes, butif
Scott (28:00):
Yeah,
Daniel Rock (28:02):
undergoing domestic abuse or someone who is scared
that will not feel like home.
It might be the
Scott (28:08):
that's right.
Daniel Rock (28:09):
but you don't feel safe.
And you'd want really, you wantto be anywhere, but there, would
you still consider that home?
And it goes, I hadn't reallythought of it that way, because
you have that, you only haveyour lens, right?
And I think that's one of thethings I find fascinating about
your story and journey is youseen so many different lenses.
terms of what that means, itgives you a different
(28:31):
perspective on your own kind of
Scott (28:33):
Mm hmm.
Daniel Rock (28:34):
home is.
Scott (28:35):
Absolutely Yeah, I mean and the other thing that that
you know You have actually livedmore internationally than I have
but at least I can share thatperspective from the somewhat
three years I lived in Thailand,but I but since returned the
United States in continuing towork with refugee populations
including Very closerelationships with some of the
(28:56):
first refugees I met 44 yearsago.
They're still very close to mein my life.
You know, watching this story,that's his oldest time as people
settle here and start their, theespecially younger generation,
start their families here.
Now there's this tension.
A story as old as time, is whereis home?
Is home my home country?
(29:19):
Or is home here now?
And, and it's sort of inbetween, uh, depending on where
you are in the generationaldivide, but, uh, that's
fascinating to me as well,because it, it, it, people have
all these highly individualizedstories of, How they're trying
to define what, what is homereally?
(29:40):
I know Cambodians who have beenhere for over 40 years, who
still say no.
Cambodia is still home.
I, if I, maybe I can get backthere.
Maybe I want to return there.
I can't yet.
That's still home.
Others say, well, no, Cambodiawas home, but home is here now.
And everything in between peoplesay, well, no, I got, you know.
I, I have ties to both.
I'm never quite at home now inone place or the other.
(30:01):
I think that's very common inthe immigrant experience.
That also fascinates me becausethere's just, again, millions of
different coping strategies onhow you now deal with this
disjointed physicality of home.
Daniel Rock (30:15):
yeah, and I'd agree with that.
Like it's a really difficult,it's something that I struggle
with identifying at times myselfbecause obviously I grew up.
You know, until my earlytwenties in the UK.
And I think part of me wouldalways say, well, the UK is
home.
That's where I'm from.
And like England, if it comes tosport, I support English
(30:35):
football team, cricket
Scott (30:36):
Yeah.
Daniel Rock (30:37):
you know, that's, that, that's what I do.
You know, that's, that's kind ofmy mindset, I'd never go back
and live there.
That doesn't feel like a home Iwould ever go back to live in.
And I think that's a slightlyodd concept where of New
Zealand, which is my connectionto New Zealand is really through
longevity.
I lived there for the, the mostof my adult life before I moved
(30:59):
here, but I don't have family.
I have some wonderful friendswho I miss dearly, but I don't
have roots there per se.
But that's probably the place Iwould say emotionally feels most
like home in terms of that,whereas I think as I spend more
time here and obviously as mydaughter grows up here and I
build networks here, I can seethat transitioning to where I am
(31:21):
now, but it is a kind of whatopened my eyes up to being such
a fluid concept because I don'tthink
Scott (31:28):
Right, right.
Daniel Rock (31:28):
a permanent thing.
It is to me.
And I think you can catch likethat.
There is a lot of fluidity tohome is and where do we go?
And those sort of things.
Um, I kind of just want to sortof touch on a couple more things
before, before we wrap up, justfinishing off sort of your
journey a little bit more.
Just, um, we've talked a littlebit about the immigration
detention centers and thingslike that.
(31:51):
I'd love to hear a little bitmore about how you got involved
with that and kind of yourexperiences there.
Scott (31:58):
Well, um, it's related to the career I built in working in
health care in, um, jails andprisons, um, and, and became,
you know, in the, in the nichethat it is, uh, well known in
that field.
And, Um, so I actually wasreproached by, um, the
government, um, and when theyneeded expertise in assessing
(32:20):
the quality of medical care indetention settings.
Um, so, you know, it really sortof flowed naturally from the
work that I did.
And of course, when theopportunity arose, I was very
interested in it because, uh,again, I had started my whole
career in refugee work.
So, um, it seemed, um,interesting.
familiar and of interest to me.
So that, you know, that's how Istarted doing that work.
(32:40):
I do that, uh, as an expertconsultant for the federal
government, um, and makeperiodic visits to detention
centers and evaluate them and,uh, give the government
feedback,
Daniel Rock (32:51):
So I don't want to touch on politics cause it's
very, there's a very big, um,can of worms right now.
Um, particularly, particularlyin the U S, but I suppose the
thing I would like to talk aboutthat is your experience with the
people, um, in, in, in thosecenters and kind of what their
experiences are and how you feelwith them.
(33:12):
What's your perception of theirperception of high math?
That's probably a bit of aconvoluted question,
Scott (33:16):
Yep.
Well, I get it.
I think we were talking about ita little bit earlier in the
conversation.
Um, you know, first thing Iwould say is, you know, when I,
when I follow as it's on, weought to unavoidably do, it's a
worldwide conversation aboutmigration, displacement and what
opportunities and rights peopleshould have, um, as it relates
(33:36):
to immigration.
Um, I think the biggest thingthat gets lost, um, And the
discussion is sort of thehumanity of it.
I always say that people who,you know, know I do this type of
work and, and, and whether I askthem to or not, they often
volunteer their opinions on animmigration law.
I just say, I wish you couldtalk to some of the individual
(33:59):
people that I get to talk to andhear individual stories.
Instead of hearing these broad,sweeping, often inaccurate
characterizations, um, that sodominate the public discourse,
you know, they're people.
And again, you know, I think itwould surprise people that, uh,
sure, there are people who mightbe doing, uh, you know, trying
(34:20):
to come to any developed countryfor, you might say, purely
opportunistic reasons.
But, but more often than not,they're people who didn't want
to leave their home.
situation.
They got displaced from it, um,and usually in very compelling
and desperate circumstances, anddon't even really want to
permanently reside in, in a hostcountry.
(34:42):
They're, they're just trying toescape something, uh, at least
for the moment.
Um, so, uh, again, I, I, it'ssort of not, it's, it's
analogous to I was happy in myhome until something.
Bad happened and then it didn'twork anymore.
And, and I had to move forward.
Daniel Rock (35:02):
Yeah.
Scott (35:02):
I think that's often what's going on.
Um, and I just, I do wish ashuman beings, we would get
beyond broad strokecharacterizations of any groups
of people and try more often tohear stories.
You would do what you're doing.
I mean, people telling theirstories.
That's where, where we learnedthe nuance.
As you said, the conversationyou had in the bar, the other
(35:24):
fellow just hadn't thought ofthat perspective, but you know,
uh, someone feeling unsafe intheir home is actually far too
common.
Lucky for us, if we haven'texperienced it, but don't ignore
it or not be aware of it, thatthat's what motivates some
people, right?
Right,
Daniel Rock (35:40):
we, you know, just touching on that part, it's that
whichever side of the spectrumpolitically you, you sit on, I
think there's a real danger thatwe do get into that.
Everyone in this bubble is likethis and everyone in that bubble
is like this and you're right,it's losing that humanity and
it's really interesting when tokind of use a little bit of.
(36:03):
An example, concealing enough ofit should not be real.
Um, in that you hear of peopleto say, Oh, you know, you know,
I don't want undocumented peoplecoming here.
I don't want this.
I don't want that.
And when you say, well, so andso is undocumented.
You want to send them home?
Oh, not them.
Scott (36:18):
right, right, right.
Yeah.
And they're at the people.
They know the people they knowas people, a category or, or, or
a sort of, uh, You know, a twodimensional, uh, image of, of
some group of people that's, youknow, it's to some level
dehumanized.
Well, that's easy to say.
Well, I'm sorry, we can't helpeverybody.
You know, but, but I agree withyou.
(36:39):
You start to look around andsay, well, did you, you might
not have realized, but someonewho is involved in your life,
who you care about, who youthink is a very decent person,
Also happens to be in asituation where they don't have
a document.
Well, yeah, well, no, no, no,no, they're, they're fine.
They, they, they should be ableto.
So, yeah, I think it's that lackof personal connection, lack of
being able, um, to relate to,um, individuals.
(37:02):
Now the, the, the gift of myperspective, my career is even
though I go in and look atprograms, I do one on one
interviews over the course of mycareer.
I've done thousands uponthousands of one on one
conversations with individuals.
Tell me your story.
Yeah.
I have that perspective.
So I don't look at the numbersand just see numbers.
I have a great sense of theindividuality, um, the heart,
(37:26):
the soul that that's behindthose numbers.
Daniel Rock (37:29):
I think, you know, whether or not he said it or not
is somewhat debatable, but the,the Starling quote, which is,
you know, the death of anindividual is a tragedy, the
death of a million is astatistic.
Scott (37:39):
Right.
Daniel Rock (37:40):
we run the risk of.
Doing that in these examples,you make everything a statistic
and it becomes very easy todehumanize and depersonalize
that whole experience.
When actually, if you start, asyou've done, you know, going out
and listening to the stories andtalking to the individuals, you
humanize that.
And then I think if more peoplewere able to do that, or at
least to people that have,they'd be able to humanize that
(38:02):
whole experience of people inthose situations and understand
that they're just.
People like us, they're not anydifferent.
They have the same wants andneeds and desires, and they're
just in a less privilegedsituation more often than not.
Scott (38:16):
That's right.
And I think, you know, thechallenge is, let's be honest,
in a world that overwhelms usall, it's easier to have a two
dimensional view of humanity,especially people who are
different.
It's a, it's a coping strategy.
So I, I can see why it happens,but I think you and I would say
the flip side is the rewardreward.
(38:37):
reward.
of learning and getting to knowpeople who are culturally or
geographically or nationallydifferent than you are.
Um, if you can bridge that gap,the reward is immense.
Daniel Rock (38:50):
I agree.
And I'll finish on just a smallstory from my life that kind of
gave me a little bit of thatperspective.
I was, I want to say 14 andagain, very lucky with my
childhood background.
And my parents took me onholiday to a place called the
Gambia, which is a tiny littlestrip of land in West Africa.
It's actually completelysurrounded by Senegal.
(39:11):
And, um, there was one of thestaff, my local staff members
that worked at the hotel was ranthrough the games hut where they
let you out tennis rackets and,you know, footballs and stuff
like that.
And I got changed.
It was probably 18, 19 young,young guy.
And we were chatting.
He said, Oh, we've got afootball match tonight.
If you want to come watch thefootball match.
And again, my parents beingincredibly trust me that, yeah,
(39:33):
you can go with this person thatyou've met just at the hotel to
a football stadium where wedon't know where it is
completely fine.
so me and another kid from thehotel, we went to watch this
football matches, giant stadiumbuilt by China that could have
held 55, 000 people and probablyhad 300 people in it.
And he said, Oh, do you want tosee where I live?
And literally it was acorrugated iron shack in a small
(39:54):
village, kids playing footballwith a old ball that had no
leather left on it.
you get that perspective of thatpoint in going with, and he was
like one of the happiest peopleI'd ever met.
And so it isn't about.
Necessary to material items orthings.
It's the circumstances and thethings you've done.
And it was, you know, awonderful experience and I had a
great time.
And I think that shaped a lot ofmy viewpoints as I've got older.
(40:14):
And like, you have to pushyourself outside of your bubble
because if you only exist inyour bubble and in your echo
chamber, you're never going tolearn or experience all that the
world and life have to offer toyou.
You're just gonna have this verymyopic view of the world that I
don't think does anyone.
You don't have to travel to dothis.
You can do this by just talkingto people.
You wouldn't normally talk to
Scott (40:35):
Well, you know, I,
Daniel Rock (40:36):
expand your, expand your circle of influence.
Scott (40:39):
I want to jump on that because my story, you know, your
story, we, of course, we'veacknowledged we had advantages,
privileges, but we were able totravel at fairly young ages and
have our eyes opened, but thatwas back when it literally
required traveling, getting on aplane and flying somewhere.
And in one of thedisappointments of modern
technology that we were talkingabout before, The podcast
(41:02):
started is that you can actuallyeasily connect and have
conversations with peopleinternationally, uh, through the
internet.
And yet, uh, people don't eventake advantage of that.
And we spend most of our time insilly little news feeds of
garbage, you know, and guilty ascharged, and we all get sucked
(41:23):
into it because there's thesevery powerful algorithms
Daniel Rock (41:25):
Instagram or tick
Scott (41:26):
us.
But,
Daniel Rock (41:28):
Mm hmm.
Scott (41:39):
that I was practicing my Cambodian with.
It was simply a language appthat simply connected you with a
teacher in another country for avery small amount of money by U
S standards.
You could get a private tutoriallesson.
But the thing that was great forme is like, I was.
I was having conversations withregular people in some, you
know, village in Cambodia whowere teachers by day and as a
side jumped on this platform toteach so that, you know, you
(42:02):
don't have to have a lot ofmoney.
You, an internet connectioncould get you a conversation
with someone halfway around theworld if you, if you put a
little effort into it.
Daniel Rock (42:10):
And I think that's exactly right.
The internet is probably one ofthe best and worst things that's
happened to society same boat.
And I think if we spend lesstime on it, screaming into echo
chambers as to why we hatesomething and more time and
reaching out and connecting, Ithink it'd be a better place.
Scott (42:26):
Well, I mean, so this, this type of conversation that
Daniel Rock (42:29):
this podcast.
Scott (42:31):
right.
Absolutely correct.
So, um, it's, it's been a realpleasure conversing with you.
I love what you're doing andwe'll follow you with interest.
Daniel Rock (42:40):
Brilliant.
Thank you so much, um, Scott.
And again, Dr.
Scott Allen, um, his book, whichwas released in March of 2024,
um, is called across a bridge offire, which is showing on screen
right now.
I will put a link to that in theshow notes so everyone can do
that.
And again, thank you for tuningin to wherever I lay my hat.
This has been a fantasticconversation.
(43:01):
I've really enjoyed it.
If you've got a story that youwould like to share and share
your perception of home and howthings are for you, I'd love to
hear from you.
So please reach out.
Um, my email address is just Danat wherever I lay my hat.
com, or you can visit thewebsite, which is wherever I lay
my hat.
com and reach us out there.
So thank you so much.
And again, thank you so much.
Scott, it's been a greatpleasure.
Scott (43:21):
Pleasure is mine.
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