January 28, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode of 'Wherever I Lay My Hat,' we engage with Shebana Coelho, a writer, performance artist, and traveler who takes us on her incredible journey from city life in New York to the landscapes of Tierra del Fuego, Argentina, and Mongolia. Shebana shares her experiences living with nomadic communities, the profound impact of landscape on her sense of self, and her current life facilitating creative writing near the indigenous Zuni community in New Mexico. Join us for an inspiring conversation about the intersection of culture, land, and personal growth.
00:00 Introduction to Shebana Coelho
00:14 Shabana's Early Life and Departure from New York
03:34 Adventures in Tierra del Fuego and Argentina
05:13 Mongolia: Fulbright Grant and Nomadic Life
09:41 Cultural Insights and Nomadic Traditions
11:21 Reflections on Colonization and Connection to Land
17:55 Life in New Mexico and Creative Pursuits
31:29 The Importance of Creativity and Storytelling
41:38 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniel Rock (00:05):
Hello.
And on this episode of whereverI lay my hat, we have Shabana
Coelho, a writer, performanceartist, and traveler born in
India.
Her journey began when she leftNew York city in 2006, after
feeling done with city life.
I went to Tierra del Fuego inArgentina, and from there to
Bolivia, Peru, and Mexico.
Before she embarked on the bigadventure of Mongolia, where she
(00:27):
spent a year and a half on afull bright research grant to
record the sounds and stories ofnomadic communities.
She wrote about that experiencein her essay that was later
selected to the best women'stravel writing.
And I will make sure I include alink to that writing in our show
notes.
Um, and she now resides in NewMexico near the indigenous
community of the Zuni, where shefacilitates a creative writing
class called imagine fantasticfutures.
(00:48):
I'm really excited to have youas a guest Shabana, and I'd love
to hear more about your journeyand kind of how you ended up.
In all of those places and whereyou are now.
So if you would, wouldn't mindtaking us through that.
I'd love that.
Shebana (01:00):
Thanks, Daniel.
Thanks for having me on.
I, I love the, uh, title too ofyour, it resonates of your
podcast about laying your,wherever I lay my hat.
Okay.
Thanks.
Daniel Rock (01:11):
shamelessly borrowed from a Paul Young song.
Um, where I lay my hat says aPaul Young song.
Um, and I love the song and itresonates for me.
So I'd love to say I came upwith the name, but very much
borrowed.
Um,
Shebana (01:25):
Well, it is really a lovely image.
It pulls the mind of, of, ofjourney and wandering and going
where, know, wherever you,wherever and making home
wherever you are.
I, a long time ago, someone, Ican't remember, this is a quote.
a monk that someone quoted to meabout like these different,
(01:45):
about your level of comfort,wherever you are, that shows you
how you can integrate somethinglike, know, um, I can't remember
it now, but it's about, it'sabout home.
I'll find it.
I'll find it maybe and I'llemail it to you, but it's just
about these different levels of,if you can make yourself at
home, wherever you are, thatsays a lot about your capacity
to relate to the world in adifferent way.
(02:09):
You know, and, uh, well, I willsay that, so I grew up in India,
uh, till I was 12, then I movedto the U.
S., um, and of, I began myworking life in New York City,
um, working in documentaries,um, and it became clear, I was
(02:31):
32 or 33, that as much as Ienjoyed it, that I wasn't living
The life that I wanted, therewas something missing.
That's the, that was the firstbig something is missing kind of
call.
And I thought about what it was,I realized that I really wanted
the experience of landscape,like I'd grown up cities or
(02:52):
suburbia.
Daniel Rock (02:53):
mhm.
Shebana (02:53):
And I felt, I remember thinking very distinctly, if I
die, and that's all I've knownis cities and suburbs, I will
really regret it.
Daniel Rock (03:01):
Yeah.
Shebana (03:03):
So
Daniel Rock (03:04):
Yeah.
Shebana (03:27):
and like travel.
And I couldn't I knew was that Ineeded to go.
And I had Tierra del Fuego inmind because when I was young in
India in a geography class, Ihad seen photos and, uh, this
idea of the end of the world.
And so it really changed mylife.
That was like the first big stepout of, I was leaving New York
(03:51):
and going to Argentine Tierradel Fuego.
So I flew to Buenos Aires andthen taking this little plane to
Ushuaia,
Daniel Rock (03:58):
Yep.
Shebana (03:59):
which is called, um, the, it's the southernmost city.
the world.
After that, the next stop isAntarctica.
Daniel Rock (04:07):
Yep.
Shebana (04:08):
ships for Antarctica leave from there.
That was wild to see them and bethere.
And like a lot of people inArgentina themselves have moved
from the mainland to Tierra delFuego because it's like a tax
free haven at the end of theworld.
Daniel Rock (04:22):
Um,
Shebana (04:40):
or something.
And I applied for this grant togo to Mongolia, which had also
been on my mind since
Daniel Rock (04:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So
Shebana (05:14):
I ended up getting a Fulbright, so I ended up
spending more or less a year anda half Mongolia.
Both in the city of Ulaanbaatar,where I stayed with the
Mongolian family and tookintensive Mongolian language
classes.
And then also I would go outinto the countryside, the Yag
Khudu, the real, like, Khudu isthe countryside and Yag is like
(05:36):
real, like,
Daniel Rock (05:37):
that.
Shebana (05:37):
out there.
Daniel Rock (05:38):
That's like the steps, right?
That is what, so this, what isreferred to as the steps, which
is obviously where the Mongolsand the Genghis Khan history and
all of that, that's that area ofthe world, correct?
Shebana (05:50):
Yeah, Mongolia is, the word for step is taal.
Khuddu actually meanscountryside.
So people, the way you wouldsay, I'm going to the
countryside, people would say,I'm going to the, I'm going to
the countryside.
But the word for the step istaal.
The word for the step is taal.
So that's where I was.
Yeah, my idea was, I had alwayswanted to have an everyday
(06:14):
experience of that immenselandscape.
And so my project that I came upwith was to record the sounds of
everyday life in Mongoliancommunities.
I wouldn't really say tribesbecause it's really communities.
And, uh, you mentioned ChinggisKhan in Mongolia.
The Khan is said that way,Chinggis.
(06:36):
And there's a story about likehow he got his name.
Oh, there's a mystery about atleast the way that I heard it.
One is that when Khan unified,he was born Temujin.
That was his name.
And when he united at that time,all these different clans and
fought, he, he named himselflike kind of the head, the
(07:01):
emperor of them, or I don't knowif it was emperor, but, at that
moment, a bird Came and made asound that was Chinggis,
Daniel Rock (07:09):
Wow.
I hadn't heard that.
Shebana (07:12):
and then there's another one where there's a word
in Mongolian, which I, it'scalled dingus, which is either
ocean or sky.
I always get it mixed up and I,I forgot to double check, but in
any case, it's like that becauseas vast as the sky or the ocean,
so Chinggis Khan and, um, yeah,so that's where I was.
I was in Mongolia for a year anda half and that really changed
my life.
(07:32):
Which I'm happy to talk moreabout like, how it changed, how
I see the world, because Irealized I could live in the
same way.
Uh, that I traveled, meaning notcarrying as much and being open,
uh, to kind of step by stepunfolding, no pun intended, but
step by step unfolding ofthings.
(07:55):
And that's really what led me towhere I am now, you know, uh, to
New Mexico, coming back to NewMexico.
Um, uh, yeah.
And, and it really Opened me upto also, I fell into my
creativity or, or dove into itor, you know, working in, I see
myself as a writer and aperformance artist and I've also
(08:19):
made films.
And I write poetry and I performsolo plays and really traveling,
especially in Mongolia, itopened me up to follow all kinds
of creative possibilities, and Ifeel where I am now, it's really
(08:41):
beautiful to be.
Uh, in New Mexico, again, nearthis indigenous community is
called Zuni or Ashawi, and alsoI've just been going through a
lot of searching about what mynext true step is.
So an overview
Daniel Rock (08:57):
That's
Shebana (08:58):
uh,
Daniel Rock (08:59):
I'd love to dig in more into a lot of that.
I think it's, it's a fascinatingstory and I think it's for me,
what really resonates and theMongolia thing resonates to me
in a couple of ways.
Um, I don't know if you've everseen it.
There's a documentary seriescalled a long way round, which
is Ewan McGregor and CharlieBorman who'd go around the world
(09:19):
the long way around, right.
From London to New York, thelong way around.
And they travel a huge part ofthat series is their travels for
Mongolia.
And I think when you look at.
You and journey.
And I believe that they ended uphim and his then wife, um,
adopted a Mongolian child offthe back of that.
Cause he fell so in love withthe country and of, I think, and
(09:40):
I've really loved to hear fromyou.
One of the perceptions I've getfrom that and some of the other
documentaries I've seen is,Especially amongst the nomadic
communities in Mongolia, there'sa tie to the land or a tie to
that is perhaps not something wekind of appreciate in the West,
right?
It's almost like it's part oftheir family or part of their
(10:01):
being more so than, you know,Kind of what we see is it is a
more transactional piece,though, I think most indigenous
communities see land differentlyto us that may have colonized in
those indigenous spaces comingfrom the British background.
So I'd love to hear a little bitmore about how spending time.
Those nomadic communities kindof changed your perception of
home.
Obviously, growing up in bigcities and I grew up in London.
(10:23):
I've lived in Auckland for along time.
They are big concretecommunities.
monolithic cities.
Um, so it's really interestingto hear your perspective of kind
of how that changed yourperceptions.
Shebana (10:37):
Yeah, I'm glad to share.
Um, I just wanted to say, causeyou mentioned colonization.
I did like the play I do thatkind of changed my life.
The truest thing is called thegood manners of colonized
subjects.
And it is about the impact ofthe British colonization and
Portuguese colonization of Indiain a felt body sense, right?
What colonization does.
And I mentioned it because Ifeel.
(10:58):
Without knowing it, I've been onthat journey of understanding
what it means to excavate theway that you're colonized.
inside your interior landscape.
And I think that's one of thereasons land has been calling to
me because it's, um, it's a wayto be, to really, to be free.
(11:21):
I think being in Mongolia, thatvastness, all the immense spaces
I was in, it shifted how I seethe space, my interior sense of
spaciousness.
Like, cause when you're around,so what I will say about couple
of things.
Yes.
I remember when I was inMongolia, so this was 2007.
(11:42):
Oh, goodness, a long time ago, Iwas in Mongolia, too.
I want to say, I'm totallyblanking now, 2007, I want to
say.
but I remember people talkingabout Ewan McGregor in Mongolia
and saying, Mongolia made himcry.
Like, you know, because I thinkhis, his bike, I forget which
(12:02):
province he was in now.
I want to say, I don't remembernow.
I don't know.
Cause he may have been, I knowit was like, I don't think he
was in the Western part ofMongolia.
I want to say he was somewherein the interior.
Daniel Rock (12:17):
He was, I think I remember, right.
It was very much going rightthrough the middle almost.
Um, because he, I know hestopped in Ulaanbaatar, but I
don't remember because he wastrying to get through to
Vladivostok, I believe, to getthe, to get the ferry or the
boat from Vladivostok to the US.
Shebana (12:34):
yeah, this, but I remember people saying that
Mongolia made him cry because Ithink his bike broke down.
They had like a big breakdown.
And I also heard about himadopting Uh, well, you know,
what to tell you?
Um, I, I went to Mongolia, likeI said, Mongolia is changing,
this is what I will say.
(12:56):
This is what you will readabout, like, the amount of, I
think, a huge portion of theformerly nomadic community now
lives in the city ofUlaanbaatar, one of the issues
that happens, because manypeople move, they move, there's
it.
There's the city, which lookslike, uh, because Mongolia was
kind of a Soviet
Daniel Rock (13:16):
Sorry.
Yeah.
I
Shebana (13:36):
nomadic is changing, is changing, changing every day.
And the winter in Mongolia, forexample.
there's some people had itreally hard to breathe because
of the smoke from the wood firesoff folks who've moved from the
countryside to the city inwhat's called the Gare District,
which is like they've set upGares, the yurts outside on the
(14:00):
rims of the city where they livein these communities and burning
wood smoke.
And so there's a side by sidewith the refinery that's on the
other side of UB.
So it's people find it in thewinter.
Some people can find it reallyhard, uh, the air quality from
all the wood fires.
I went to Mongolia for thatreason in your mind that you say
(14:22):
that like this, I wanted to knowwhat it was like to have a
different relationship, aneveryday relationship with
landscape.
And I lived with, uh, uh, inevery season I spent in a
different part of Mongolia.
I got to experience like thecalving season in the very, in
the province of Hindi, when likewith a, with a kind of an
(14:44):
extended family that gottogether in this one place just
to be together to tend, Becauseall the animals were being born
and, you know, and to deal withit.
And then they would move and Igot to move with the family, uh,
the spring spots to the summerspot where like, they were like,
okay, it's time to move.
And we packed up the gear into atruck and drove on the step, the
(15:09):
Thal and stopped and pointed.
and said, how about the fatherof the family said, how about we
move there?
big pile with the river closerto a river.
we did move there
Daniel Rock (15:26):
think that's.
Shebana (15:27):
set up the garrigan.
Daniel Rock (15:28):
Yeah, that to me is fascinating, obviously, because
I think when you put a westernlens on land, it becomes a lot
about, about ownership, right?
That's my land.
So I will build there.
I will settle there.
I will make that, you know, Ithink the, the, I'm trying to
think of the right word, thekind of myth of the, you know,
(15:49):
an Englishman and his castle,you know, which is, you know, in
that suburbia piece, you buildyour little fort and you, that's
where you're safe in that.
And to have that, I don't know,freedom or relationship with
land that says, well, that's nowhome.
You know, you haven't decidedupfront that this is where I'm
going to, you know, the areayou're going to, but actually to
(16:10):
say that looks like that couldbe home, I find that fascinating
in terms of it's, it's acompletely different
relationship with the concept ofwhat home is.
Shebana (16:21):
Yeah, it is.
And, uh, it was just like, Idon't even have hardly the words
for it.
I have the, just to, to, to, Iremember the, If I was just like
the very, my first time, myfirst season in the landscape in
(16:43):
the, like one morning, likeearly in the morning, you would
hear, I was staying in a gerwith, uh, with a young family.
So like in the ger, there wouldbe family I was staying with,
they were called, uh, Jaga is,was, you know, Jaga and Manju,
and his wife, or Manjugo and herhusband, Jaga, because Manjugo
(17:04):
is who I knew, was a friend of afriend of a friend like that.
And they had these three kids,so we were in this gair, and
then they had a little cot forme, so like in a circle.
In the middle of the gair, thereis like a, an iron, a stove,
where you cook.
And in the morning to wake up,because it was, that was the
time of sounds of Jaga herdingthe cattle.
(17:25):
And then, uh, the sounds ofManjugo making tea really early
in the morning, but it's thistea called su titse, which is
more milk.
Su is milk.
So it's milk with tea.
You put a little bit of salt in
Daniel Rock (17:39):
So almost like, and not the same, but like more of a
chai type thing than a, like a,an English
Shebana (17:45):
know,
Daniel Rock (17:46):
black tea, you know, that it's very,
Shebana (17:47):
sure.
And, and it's somewhere betweenmaybe, because there's hardly
any chai in it, you know, it'slike really milk and it has salt
in it.
And, uh, but yeah, it's more inthat family than like a black
tea.
And it's very little Theproportion of tea to milk is
there's a lot more milk.
Um, yeah, I just, while I wasthere towards the end of my time
(18:12):
in Mongolia, I began doinginterviews about like what we'll
call Gazir is land and Damag is,uh, legend or myth.
Daniel Rock (18:25):
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Shebana (18:53):
also really was, I, in different kinds of landscapes.
So, Hinti was like this yellow,yellow treeless steppe.
You know, that was my first,then in the summer, I was in the
North and Hovsgol, which isgreen, green and mountainous,
just green, grassy green going.
I went sheep, I went sheepherding with a young boy named
(19:15):
Ulana and I made a little videoabout it, just going every
morning.
We would take the goats and thesheep, like a small, like, I
don't know, 50, 40, but thatexperience of like, who go, I
mean, of going up and down, Inin Hovesgold and then in the
autumn I was in the Gobi desertand I stayed with a couple that
(19:40):
had a small herd of camels so Iherded, I got to, um, work like,
you know, be a camel shield,like, it was really interesting
the way that the whole processof milking camels.
Separating the camels from thecalves and, but that experience
of the Gobi, I'm saying, whichis not like dune y desert, there
(20:03):
are dunes that look like sanddunes, but a lot of it is, is
this dry kind of brush, youknow, it's like, um, there's a,
there's like intermittent bushesand it's
Daniel Rock (20:15):
More of a time, if my understanding is, is that
it's like kind of almost a colddesert rather than a hot desert.
If in that, like I know it canget hot, I'm showing my
ignorance here, but myunderstanding is there's more
green to it or brush to it thanthere is to, it's not a Sahara
or a, it must
Shebana (20:32):
not
Daniel Rock (20:32):
be very different.
Shebana (20:33):
yeah, it's.
Yeah, it would be like someparts of New Mexico too, in a
way, like, wouldn't say the highdesert, but it, yeah, it's not
like all sandy, there areportions that are that way, but
it's not like the Sahara, no,and then the, my last, season,
the winter I spent in BayanOlgi, which is a Kazakh, which
(20:54):
is right now on the border ofKazakhstan, that was entirely
different to mountainous in adifferent way, and the food was
different, and so, guess whatI'm saying, Mongolia did become
landscape to me, and like, theeverydayness of being out and
about in landscape, uh, herding,Herding making sounds, you know,
(21:17):
like there were sounds you made,people weren't herding with
animals, like with dogs as youmight, you made sounds to call
camels and sheep and goats andcows, different sounds for
different occasions.
And, uh, there was a song thatwas sung to lambs put a lamb
(21:40):
that had lost its calf and acalf that had lost its mother
to, to, to, to nurse together.
And, uh, There was a song thatwas sung to cement that bond,
like you sat and you sang to ayou and a calf.
A song that's like, like that.
Daniel Rock (22:10):
I, I do think, and it is an interesting, obviously
growing up in England, you know,I moved to, I moved, I lived in
New Zealand until I was 22, andI think we for the most part,
don't have that relationshipwith the land.
We just, it's not seen in thatway.
And I think my, a lot of that isthat, you know, it's an
incredibly population densecountry.
(22:32):
You know, England, you know, orthe UK is six, I think I'm
probably outta date, but, youknow, 62, 60 3 million people.
I moved to New Zealand, which atthe time is 4 million.
It's now 5 million people, butactually has almost exactly the
same square land area as the UKdoes.
So actually a lot less.
densely populated, but also hasits own indigenous population,
(22:56):
you know, multi people andwhat's, and I would never in any
way try to come across any kindof expert or knowledgeable in
this, but what does come acrossfrom the people that I've met
and know is that they do have amuch more symbolic and deeper
relationship with where theylive and.
Where they're from.
(23:16):
And, you know, um, you know, it,it, there's a, the word in Maori
called fuck a papa, which isthat kind of where you're from
your lineage, your history, yourgenealogy.
Um, and I think that that, and alot of that is tied to place and
to home and to location.
And I find that.
What I find really interesting,um, as I watch documentaries and
(23:37):
do stuff is that whilst everyindigenous culture is incredibly
different, that seems to purveyor, um, wrong word, but that
seems prevalent in almost everyindigenous culture that there is
a tie to land or that is part oftheir, their soul and their
(23:57):
background and their ancestry,which perhaps.
Us who have treated, you know,land as a colonizing, you know,
as someone from a colonizingcountry, it's always been seen
as very transactional, right?
It is, it is property.
It is to be owned.
It is to be dominated is to be,you know, even in the States now
where I live, you know, land isthere to provide for you.
(24:17):
It is not there to be part ofyou.
And I think I'd love to hear,you know, as you've kind of
moved back to States and in NewMexico, And moved amongst an
indigenous culture there.
Have you seen that similarrelationship to land and home
amongst the Zuni, um, people, oris it very different to what you
experienced in Mongolia?
Shebana (24:40):
Um, and again, I wouldn't want to speak again for
Ashvi or Zuni people.
I will just speak to what you'resaying.
I think we're all searching forour reconnecting to this place,
to the land we walk on.
And I, was a phrase that youjust said that I just, that
(25:01):
really resonated about.
you know, who we are inrelationship to land, like
searching for that or findingthat or wanting to be that, but
yes, I will say that the, thereis in Zuni, there's a mountain
that is sacred and that is on,you'll see when you see the, if
go to the Pueblo of Zuniwebsite, that mountain, that
(25:24):
mesa is, um, um, um, And I won'tsay the name of it because I
feel it should be said bysomeone.
But you will see a mesa that,that in English is called a corn
mountain.
And, um, so, um, I do, yeah, Imean, and it's different.
See, in New Mexico, kind ofnative populations, there's
(25:44):
nomadic populations that weretraditionally nomadic, like the,
like the Diné.
Uh, say, and the Apache, andthen there's what the Spanish,
because New Mexico was colonizedby the Spanish.
It was a colony of Spain.
then it became a part of the U.
S.
and there were, so people,indigenous people in New Mexico
have kind of gone through twobouts of colonization, say, the
(26:08):
Spanish and then what you wouldcall settler.
And certainly so, the, but the,there's 19 what are called
pueblos, which would mean placesthat are rooted here that
weren't, that did not, notnomadic.
So that connection to land isvery, very strong, for sure.
Here, stories about the land,mountains named, holy mountains,
(26:30):
sacred mountains, mountains youpray to.
So yes, that, that, thatconnection to land, um, I will
say, I will agree that I, Ithink that is maybe one of the
reasons that so many of us whoare, you know, who didn't grow
up in indigenous communities aredrawn to them the symbolically,
(26:51):
because think there is somethingwe are all seeking about
reconnecting.
To our, to land, because it'snot about providing for us, but
it's just like that symbioticconnection.
I mean, I think that's what,there is a kind of hunger that
(27:14):
sometimes I feel to just be atree, you know, or, you know,
It's like, that's what I want todance now.
I keep saying that.
I'm trying to figure out whatthat means, but I find myself
saying that so often that I, Iwant to more and more dance with
trees, under trees, for trees,in supplication to stone and
(27:35):
earth and like, and I think it'sa symbol, a metaphor a deeper,
hunger to simplify andreconnect.
And I don't think it takes doingas, I don't think it takes more
(27:56):
doing.
I think it just takes morebeing, you know, being, being
like, to be like, I can sit hereand feel connected to that tree
outside, just something likethat, you know.
Daniel Rock (28:10):
I think I understand.
I think it's one of the thingsthat I've.
Doing this podcast has kind ofmade me think a little bit
about, but also just in noticeof kind of, you know, my, the,
the way that my journey is, isit's very easy to feel lost or
not feel like there's a home or,and I think, you know, one of
the things I talked about in a,in a previous episode, um, is,
(28:34):
you know, people.
end ups that people are alwayssearching for connection,
searching for connection,searching for belonging.
And that can, um, kind of appearin different ways for people.
You know, it can be a verypositive thing.
You know, it can be, you know, Ibond with the land.
I, you know, I want to dance fortrees and I don't say that in a
mocking tone.
(28:55):
It's like that's a real positiveway to feel like you're
belonging.
You become belonging withnature, you're belonging with
the place that you're at.
And I think one of the perils ofmodern life is that we often
don't feel present.
You know, or we often aren'tpresent.
We have a six inch screen, um,three feet from our brains at
almost all times.
(29:15):
And we're distracted and wedon't pay attention.
And I can't remember the lasttime I watched a movie without
picking up my phone andscrolling the internet at some
point, you know, we're, we'renot present.
And I think that.
that connection to land andnature is a really good way of
doing it.
And I think that's a reallypositive manifestation of it.
You get negative manifestations,people join gangs, they do
things because they want to fitin or be part of things.
(29:35):
And I think that what I findreally interesting about talking
to people is hearing how theymanifest that sense of belonging
and how it presents them.
And You know, I think I've lovedthe story that you've been
telling me about this.
I think it's fascinating.
And I think you've, you've seensome beautiful things.
And one of the things you sortof mentioned in our initial
(29:56):
communications is thinking aboutwhat's next right for you and
where do you go and what's thenext stage of life for you.
So I'd love to hear a little bitabout kind of your thinking and
what it is you think you'reseeking in terms of home or what
you think that next step mightlook like for you.
Shebana (30:15):
Thank you for asking that.
I'm always, not always, but I'moften glad to reflect on that.
Um, I think when I think aboutwhat's next now, I want to
reflect on in really small ways.
Like to break into only whatmakes me happy, but ways I think
I use this word a lot to be ofservice, to be of, I, this keeps
(30:38):
coming up a lot for me, thisphrase, be of service.
And I think that does happenwhen you get in touch with what
really makes you happy.
Um, that doesn't mean it's easy.
all the things that make youhappy are easy journeys.
And, um, there is, um, I thinkit was, uh, there's a Quaker
(31:00):
writer named Parker Palmer andwrote a book about, you know,
that says something like, beforeyou tell your life you want from
it, listen to what it is askingof you.
Daniel Rock (31:13):
Mm hmm.
Silence.
Shebana (31:29):
like, I do feel and more at my essence, um, the
things that I love to do is Ilove to create, uh, kind of
these plays made of poetry anddance that are about, about
colonizations of
Daniel Rock (31:47):
Yep.
Yep.
Shebana (32:12):
more, uh, I also love facilitating creativity
workshops for people to writepoem like things and song like
things.
I say like things because Ithink we can be colonized by
structures of things too.
And especially in indigenouscommunities and communities of
color, there can be a real senseof, if you start saying, Using
(32:38):
English to teach something, itcan bring out a lot of trauma
because for a lot ofcommunities, English, learning
English was connected to traumain some way.
And so like, for example, when Iwas doing this workshop in Zuni
called Imagine FantasticFutures, go out of my way to,
(33:00):
like, I don't have any kind ofsyllabus like thing in the
beginning.
Like we just really play,because for a lot of people,
there is trauma around how theywere taught English.
Like not being able to, and thenalso their connection to their
own language.
So like, it's very, so, I, I'm,I really play try to put English
(33:22):
in its place, meaning it's a,it's a language that we use, but
it doesn't ennoble you to speakit or not speak it.
useful.
And in that same way, I wouldlike to put.
and money in its place, that isto say they're useful.
is literally ways to connect andtransact because we've chosen
(33:43):
that in the world.
Um, but how to, yeah, I do feelthis, I feel the next step
involves my speaking up in waysthat, May not be loud, but are,
uh, still a kind of revolution.
(34:03):
It's not loud is not necessarilya revolution.
So I feel like, um, speaking upwith a level of nuance or
creating with a level of nuanceor creating work that has this
kind of nuance that sees,
Daniel Rock (34:19):
It.
Shebana (34:20):
know, the, the sees the, yeah, yeah.
I don't, I don't have all thewords for it, but it's this,
there's a kind of speaking upand being present in a new way.
Daniel Rock (34:27):
Mhm.
I think there's, I think there'sso much in capture in that, you
know, there's that you can speakquietly and have a big impact.
I know the Teddy Roosevelt quoteis more, you know, speak softly
and carry a big stick.
But it's not that it is.
You can speak quietly and thosewords can carry meaning and they
can carry power.
(34:47):
And I really do believe in that.
And I think one of the otherthings that really resonated
with me, what you said there isI think one of the things that
makes us grow up too quickly andlose some of that wonder and joy
is when we put structure aroundcreativity.
I think, you know, when youhave, if you look at the joy
children get from drawing orfrom playing or putting on shows
(35:11):
for their parents in theirliving rooms, and, and I think
there's a wonder to that.
Because it's free form and it'susing their imagination and it's
creativity that I don't think wedo that as adults.
I think when you start to learncreativity as an adult, whether
that's learning art in highschool or whether that's, you
know,
Shebana (35:27):
Um,
Daniel Rock (35:51):
experiences of what you went through when you used
to enjoy something and thensomeone took the fun out of it.
And I think that to me, yes,that's on a minor level, but you
make that around a generation orpeople or, you know, even a race
that you do that on scale andyou've put that structure on
something that people used tohave joy in.
And I think you look at, Youknow how people used to tell
(36:14):
stories.
It wasn't written.
It was all oral history.
It was all, you know,communicated by poetry, by song,
by dance, by, you know, thestorytelling.
And then also no, no, you've gotto write it down.
It's got to go in a book.
It's got to follow thestructure.
You need to have the dates andthe times.
And I think that what you saidthere about helping people
connect to it in the way thatyou are, I think is incredibly
(36:37):
powerful and really meaningful.
You know, and I'm really, Ireally like that.
Shebana (36:44):
I'm still working with it.
It's, it's, it's, it is sonuanced, you know, Like, I will,
for example, I grew up readingEnid Blyton, who you might know,
the British
Daniel Rock (36:55):
writing books growing up, Secret Seven and
Famous Five.
Yep.
Shebana (37:17):
of Enid Blighton on generations of Indians.
And it's like this mixed thing.
You, kind of grew up imaginingthe British countryside, like I
grew up like dreaming of theMoors and like, um, you know,
Heather and like the first timeI saw him.
Uh, I mean, I ate a macaroon, Imean, all these things, you
know, so, but it's a kind oflike, you just were longing for
(37:38):
that.
I grew up reading Indian storiestoo, but I feel like I was kind
of colonized.
It was a different kind ofcolonization as the British were
leaving, all these stories werecoming in and they mingled with
the ennobling of English thatwas already in our culture from
the British being there for ahundred years.
And it kind of created anotherkind of reality where I grew up
thinking that I was better thanother Indians who spoke English
(38:02):
badly.
You know, I, I grew up going toelocution classes things like
this, right?
And, and, you know, Blighton isreal mixed.
And I will say, she had a seriesof books called the Magic
Faraway Tree, a group of, uh,these city kids moved to the
countryside and in, in, down inthe woods, find a tree that is
(38:27):
full of, uh, elves and pixiesand all kinds of different land
that was in the top of the tree.
You would climb up a ladder andthere was a different land that
swung into place and all ofthis.
Now that mix, that mixed withthe myths I read, these comic
book illustrations of theRamayana were like my
(38:51):
creativity, were like theseplaces of, of deep escape and
nourishment for me as a child ina city who wanted, who, who, who
for various reasons needed tolike live in her imagination.
And, and so.
It's so nuanced, the ways that,our encounter with each other
(39:15):
and other cultures and what wevalue shape us.
And I, I think that to unpackthat, it, it requires, you It
not requires, but it invites usto be free to explore.
And I I'm real proponent offeeling free.
(39:37):
I think you do need to like, youknow, you do need, it helps to
know how to build things.
Like if you're going to build ahouse, you need to know how
things work.
This is for making thingsstraight and this is for
structure.
So all the ways that we've.
All the structures we've createdabout how you write this and how
you write that are useful again,as long as you put them in your
(39:58):
place that they're useful toyou, as opposed to they're the
only way you can do it.
They are of use to you.
You choose, this is useful andthis is useful.
I choose this and I choose thatbecause it's for the thing I
want to build, the me that, inthe me ness of me, you know.
Daniel Rock (40:18):
I think that's perfect.
I think when you look at it thatway is it's you.
I think the way you said it acouple of times there is they
are tools.
And tools are there to be usedand they can be used in many
different ways.
You know, you know, a hammerisn't just about hammering nails
into a wood board, right?
You can use it for a number ofways.
You can use it for everycarpenter that might listen to
(40:39):
this might be yelling at mesaying, no, she only use it in a
certain way.
But, um, I think you've reallykind of to not pun somewhat
intended hit the nail on thehead with that in terms of, you
know, these things are usefuland.
the last sort of note on that,just on something you said
around that romanticization ofthe English countryside, you
(41:00):
know, and I think that in thatera, that was kind of what we
did.
And if you look at it now, it'sprobably the romanticization of
Hollywood or California or thebeaches, you know, in a media,
the way, you know, the way weconsume thing portrays things
into this, well, this is whatit's like, and this is the
perfect world.
And I need to fit that.
And I think.
Understanding this freedom andnot following that exact path
(41:24):
and using your imagination todetermine what is really
powerful.
And I think, you know, whatyou're doing with teaching
creativity and getting outsideof that is, is awesome.
You know, that awesome is a bitof a cliche word, but there's,
there's power in it and I thinkthat's, that's really
fascinating.
Um, I want to say thank you, um,for being our guest today.
I've really, really enjoyed ourconversation.
(41:45):
Um, really fascinating.
And you've got a fantasticstory.
So thank you so much for comingon.
Shabana.
I really do appreciate it.
Shebana (41:53):
Thank you.
It's been great.
I really appreciate thisopportunity to kind of reflect
deeply on, you know, journey andwhere we are and where we want
to go and how we connect to eachother.
I think it's, we're all in thistogether and I think, um, it's,
it's wonderful to connect likethis.
Daniel Rock (42:12):
Thank you so much.
And thank you for listening tothis episode of wherever I lay
my hat.
It's very much appreciated.
I love hearing comments from youand the feedback that we get.
Again, if you'd like to be partof the show and you've got a
story you'd like to tell, pleasereach out to dan at wherever I
lay my hat dot com.
And as usual, if you could likesubscribe, leave a review, leave
(42:33):
a comment that really helps theshow grow and gets us more
interesting thing.
People like Shabana to come onand tell their wonderful
stories.
So again, thank you so much.
And I look forward to seeing youall again soon.
Hello.
And on this episode of whereverI lay my hat, we have Shabana
Coelho, a writer, performanceartist, and traveler born in
India.
Her journey began when she leftNew York city in 2006, after
feeling done with city life.
I went to Tierra del Fuego inArgentina, and from there to
Bolivia, Peru, and Mexico.
Before she embarked on the bigadventure of Mongolia, where she
(00:27):
spent a year and a half on afull bright research grant to
record the sounds and stories ofnomadic communities.
She wrote about that experiencein her essay that was later
selected to the best women'stravel writing.
And I will make sure I include alink to that writing in our show
notes.
Um, and she now resides in NewMexico near the indigenous
community of the Zuni, where shefacilitates a creative writing
class called imagine fantasticfutures.
(00:48):
I'm really excited to have youas a guest Shabana, and I'd love
to hear more about your journeyand kind of how you ended up.
In all of those places and whereyou are now.
So if you would, wouldn't mindtaking us through that.
I'd love that.
Shebana (01:00):
Thanks, Daniel.
Thanks for having me on.
I, I love the, uh, title too ofyour, it resonates of your
podcast about laying your,wherever I lay my hat.
Okay.
Thanks.
Daniel Rock (01:11):
shamelessly borrowed from a Paul Young song.
Um, where I lay my hat says aPaul Young song.
Um, and I love the song and itresonates for me.
So I'd love to say I came upwith the name, but very much
borrowed.
Um,
Shebana (01:25):
Well, it is really a lovely image.
It pulls the mind of, of, ofjourney and wandering and going
where, know, wherever you,wherever and making home
wherever you are.
I, a long time ago, someone, Ican't remember, this is a quote.
a monk that someone quoted to meabout like these different,
(01:45):
about your level of comfort,wherever you are, that shows you
how you can integrate somethinglike, know, um, I can't remember
it now, but it's about, it'sabout home.
I'll find it.
I'll find it maybe and I'llemail it to you, but it's just
about these different levels of,if you can make yourself at
home, wherever you are, thatsays a lot about your capacity
to relate to the world in adifferent way.
(02:09):
You know, and, uh, well, I willsay that, so I grew up in India,
uh, till I was 12, then I movedto the U.
S., um, and of, I began myworking life in New York City,
um, working in documentaries,um, and it became clear, I was
(02:31):
32 or 33, that as much as Ienjoyed it, that I wasn't living
The life that I wanted, therewas something missing.
That's the, that was the firstbig something is missing kind of
call.
And I thought about what it was,I realized that I really wanted
the experience of landscape,like I'd grown up cities or
(02:52):
suburbia.
Daniel Rock (02:53):
mhm.
Shebana (02:53):
And I felt, I remember thinking very distinctly, if I
die, and that's all I've knownis cities and suburbs, I will
really regret it.
Daniel Rock (03:01):
Yeah.
Shebana (03:03):
So
Daniel Rock (03:04):
Yeah.
Shebana (03:27):
and like travel.
And I couldn't I knew was that Ineeded to go.
And I had Tierra del Fuego inmind because when I was young in
India in a geography class, Ihad seen photos and, uh, this
idea of the end of the world.
And so it really changed mylife.
That was like the first big stepout of, I was leaving New York
(03:51):
and going to Argentine Tierradel Fuego.
So I flew to Buenos Aires andthen taking this little plane to
Ushuaia,
Daniel Rock (03:58):
Yep.
Shebana (03:59):
which is called, um, the, it's the southernmost city.
the world.
After that, the next stop isAntarctica.
Daniel Rock (04:07):
Yep.
Shebana (04:08):
ships for Antarctica leave from there.
That was wild to see them and bethere.
And like a lot of people inArgentina themselves have moved
from the mainland to Tierra delFuego because it's like a tax
free haven at the end of theworld.
Daniel Rock (04:22):
Um,
Shebana (04:40):
or something.
And I applied for this grant togo to Mongolia, which had also
been on my mind since
Daniel Rock (04:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So
Shebana (05:14):
I ended up getting a Fulbright, so I ended up
spending more or less a year anda half Mongolia.
Both in the city of Ulaanbaatar,where I stayed with the
Mongolian family and tookintensive Mongolian language
classes.
And then also I would go outinto the countryside, the Yag
Khudu, the real, like, Khudu isthe countryside and Yag is like
(05:36):
real, like,
Daniel Rock (05:37):
that.
Shebana (05:37):
out there.
Daniel Rock (05:38):
That's like the steps, right?
That is what, so this, what isreferred to as the steps, which
is obviously where the Mongolsand the Genghis Khan history and
all of that, that's that area ofthe world, correct?
Shebana (05:50):
Yeah, Mongolia is, the word for step is taal.
Khuddu actually meanscountryside.
So people, the way you wouldsay, I'm going to the
countryside, people would say,I'm going to the, I'm going to
the countryside.
But the word for the step istaal.
The word for the step is taal.
So that's where I was.
Yeah, my idea was, I had alwayswanted to have an everyday
(06:14):
experience of that immenselandscape.
And so my project that I came upwith was to record the sounds of
everyday life in Mongoliancommunities.
I wouldn't really say tribesbecause it's really communities.
And, uh, you mentioned ChinggisKhan in Mongolia.
The Khan is said that way,Chinggis.
(06:36):
And there's a story about likehow he got his name.
Oh, there's a mystery about atleast the way that I heard it.
One is that when Khan unified,he was born Temujin.
That was his name.
And when he united at that time,all these different clans and
fought, he, he named himselflike kind of the head, the
(07:01):
emperor of them, or I don't knowif it was emperor, but, at that
moment, a bird Came and made asound that was Chinggis,
Daniel Rock (07:09):
Wow.
I hadn't heard that.
Shebana (07:12):
and then there's another one where there's a word
in Mongolian, which I, it'scalled dingus, which is either
ocean or sky.
I always get it mixed up and I,I forgot to double check, but in
any case, it's like that becauseas vast as the sky or the ocean,
so Chinggis Khan and, um, yeah,so that's where I was.
I was in Mongolia for a year anda half and that really changed
my life.
(07:32):
Which I'm happy to talk moreabout like, how it changed, how
I see the world, because Irealized I could live in the
same way.
Uh, that I traveled, meaning notcarrying as much and being open,
uh, to kind of step by stepunfolding, no pun intended, but
step by step unfolding ofthings.
(07:55):
And that's really what led me towhere I am now, you know, uh, to
New Mexico, coming back to NewMexico.
Um, uh, yeah.
And, and it really Opened me upto also, I fell into my
creativity or, or dove into itor, you know, working in, I see
myself as a writer and aperformance artist and I've also
(08:19):
made films.
And I write poetry and I performsolo plays and really traveling,
especially in Mongolia, itopened me up to follow all kinds
of creative possibilities, and Ifeel where I am now, it's really
(08:41):
beautiful to be.
Uh, in New Mexico, again, nearthis indigenous community is
called Zuni or Ashawi, and alsoI've just been going through a
lot of searching about what mynext true step is.
So an overview
Daniel Rock (08:57):
That's
Shebana (08:58):
uh,
Daniel Rock (08:59):
I'd love to dig in more into a lot of that.
I think it's, it's a fascinatingstory and I think it's for me,
what really resonates and theMongolia thing resonates to me
in a couple of ways.
Um, I don't know if you've everseen it.
There's a documentary seriescalled a long way round, which
is Ewan McGregor and CharlieBorman who'd go around the world
(09:19):
the long way around, right.
From London to New York, thelong way around.
And they travel a huge part ofthat series is their travels for
Mongolia.
And I think when you look at.
You and journey.
And I believe that they ended uphim and his then wife, um,
adopted a Mongolian child offthe back of that.
Cause he fell so in love withthe country and of, I think, and
(09:40):
I've really loved to hear fromyou.
One of the perceptions I've getfrom that and some of the other
documentaries I've seen is,Especially amongst the nomadic
communities in Mongolia, there'sa tie to the land or a tie to
that is perhaps not something wekind of appreciate in the West,
right?
It's almost like it's part oftheir family or part of their
(10:01):
being more so than, you know,Kind of what we see is it is a
more transactional piece,though, I think most indigenous
communities see land differentlyto us that may have colonized in
those indigenous spaces comingfrom the British background.
So I'd love to hear a little bitmore about how spending time.
Those nomadic communities kindof changed your perception of
home.
Obviously, growing up in bigcities and I grew up in London.
(10:23):
I've lived in Auckland for along time.
They are big concretecommunities.
monolithic cities.
Um, so it's really interestingto hear your perspective of kind
of how that changed yourperceptions.
Shebana (10:37):
Yeah, I'm glad to share.
Um, I just wanted to say, causeyou mentioned colonization.
I did like the play I do thatkind of changed my life.
The truest thing is called thegood manners of colonized
subjects.
And it is about the impact ofthe British colonization and
Portuguese colonization of Indiain a felt body sense, right?
What colonization does.
And I mentioned it because Ifeel.
(10:58):
Without knowing it, I've been onthat journey of understanding
what it means to excavate theway that you're colonized.
inside your interior landscape.
And I think that's one of thereasons land has been calling to
me because it's, um, it's a wayto be, to really, to be free.
(11:21):
I think being in Mongolia, thatvastness, all the immense spaces
I was in, it shifted how I seethe space, my interior sense of
spaciousness.
Like, cause when you're around,so what I will say about couple
of things.
Yes.
I remember when I was inMongolia, so this was 2007.
(11:42):
Oh, goodness, a long time ago, Iwas in Mongolia, too.
I want to say, I'm totallyblanking now, 2007, I want to
say.
but I remember people talkingabout Ewan McGregor in Mongolia
and saying, Mongolia made himcry.
Like, you know, because I thinkhis, his bike, I forget which
(12:02):
province he was in now.
I want to say, I don't remembernow.
I don't know.
Cause he may have been, I knowit was like, I don't think he
was in the Western part ofMongolia.
I want to say he was somewherein the interior.
Daniel Rock (12:17):
He was, I think I remember, right.
It was very much going rightthrough the middle almost.
Um, because he, I know hestopped in Ulaanbaatar, but I
don't remember because he wastrying to get through to
Vladivostok, I believe, to getthe, to get the ferry or the
boat from Vladivostok to the US.
Shebana (12:34):
yeah, this, but I remember people saying that
Mongolia made him cry because Ithink his bike broke down.
They had like a big breakdown.
And I also heard about himadopting Uh, well, you know,
what to tell you?
Um, I, I went to Mongolia, likeI said, Mongolia is changing,
this is what I will say.
(12:56):
This is what you will readabout, like, the amount of, I
think, a huge portion of theformerly nomadic community now
lives in the city ofUlaanbaatar, one of the issues
that happens, because manypeople move, they move, there's
it.
There's the city, which lookslike, uh, because Mongolia was
kind of a Soviet
Daniel Rock (13:16):
Sorry.
Yeah.
I
Shebana (13:36):
nomadic is changing, is changing, changing every day.
And the winter in Mongolia, forexample.
there's some people had itreally hard to breathe because
of the smoke from the wood firesoff folks who've moved from the
countryside to the city inwhat's called the Gare District,
which is like they've set upGares, the yurts outside on the
(14:00):
rims of the city where they livein these communities and burning
wood smoke.
And so there's a side by sidewith the refinery that's on the
other side of UB.
So it's people find it in thewinter.
Some people can find it reallyhard, uh, the air quality from
all the wood fires.
I went to Mongolia for thatreason in your mind that you say
(14:22):
that like this, I wanted to knowwhat it was like to have a
different relationship, aneveryday relationship with
landscape.
And I lived with, uh, uh, inevery season I spent in a
different part of Mongolia.
I got to experience like thecalving season in the very, in
the province of Hindi, when likewith a, with a kind of an
(14:44):
extended family that gottogether in this one place just
to be together to tend, Becauseall the animals were being born
and, you know, and to deal withit.
And then they would move and Igot to move with the family, uh,
the spring spots to the summerspot where like, they were like,
okay, it's time to move.
And we packed up the gear into atruck and drove on the step, the
(15:09):
Thal and stopped and pointed.
and said, how about the fatherof the family said, how about we
move there?
big pile with the river closerto a river.
we did move there
Daniel Rock (15:26):
think that's.
Shebana (15:27):
set up the garrigan.
Daniel Rock (15:28):
Yeah, that to me is fascinating, obviously, because
I think when you put a westernlens on land, it becomes a lot
about, about ownership, right?
That's my land.
So I will build there.
I will settle there.
I will make that, you know, Ithink the, the, I'm trying to
think of the right word, thekind of myth of the, you know,
(15:49):
an Englishman and his castle,you know, which is, you know, in
that suburbia piece, you buildyour little fort and you, that's
where you're safe in that.
And to have that, I don't know,freedom or relationship with
land that says, well, that's nowhome.
You know, you haven't decidedupfront that this is where I'm
going to, you know, the areayou're going to, but actually to
(16:10):
say that looks like that couldbe home, I find that fascinating
in terms of it's, it's acompletely different
relationship with the concept ofwhat home is.
Shebana (16:21):
Yeah, it is.
And, uh, it was just like, Idon't even have hardly the words
for it.
I have the, just to, to, to, Iremember the, If I was just like
the very, my first time, myfirst season in the landscape in
(16:43):
the, like one morning, likeearly in the morning, you would
hear, I was staying in a gerwith, uh, with a young family.
So like in the ger, there wouldbe family I was staying with,
they were called, uh, Jaga is,was, you know, Jaga and Manju,
and his wife, or Manjugo and herhusband, Jaga, because Manjugo
(17:04):
is who I knew, was a friend of afriend of a friend like that.
And they had these three kids,so we were in this gair, and
then they had a little cot forme, so like in a circle.
In the middle of the gair, thereis like a, an iron, a stove,
where you cook.
And in the morning to wake up,because it was, that was the
time of sounds of Jaga herdingthe cattle.
(17:25):
And then, uh, the sounds ofManjugo making tea really early
in the morning, but it's thistea called su titse, which is
more milk.
Su is milk.
So it's milk with tea.
You put a little bit of salt in
Daniel Rock (17:39):
So almost like, and not the same, but like more of a
chai type thing than a, like a,an English
Shebana (17:45):
know,
Daniel Rock (17:46):
black tea, you know, that it's very,
Shebana (17:47):
sure.
And, and it's somewhere betweenmaybe, because there's hardly
any chai in it, you know, it'slike really milk and it has salt
in it.
And, uh, but yeah, it's more inthat family than like a black
tea.
And it's very little Theproportion of tea to milk is
there's a lot more milk.
Um, yeah, I just, while I wasthere towards the end of my time
(18:12):
in Mongolia, I began doinginterviews about like what we'll
call Gazir is land and Damag is,uh, legend or myth.
Daniel Rock (18:25):
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Shebana (18:53):
also really was, I, in different kinds of landscapes.
So, Hinti was like this yellow,yellow treeless steppe.
You know, that was my first,then in the summer, I was in the
North and Hovsgol, which isgreen, green and mountainous,
just green, grassy green going.
I went sheep, I went sheepherding with a young boy named
(19:15):
Ulana and I made a little videoabout it, just going every
morning.
We would take the goats and thesheep, like a small, like, I
don't know, 50, 40, but thatexperience of like, who go, I
mean, of going up and down, Inin Hovesgold and then in the
autumn I was in the Gobi desertand I stayed with a couple that
(19:40):
had a small herd of camels so Iherded, I got to, um, work like,
you know, be a camel shield,like, it was really interesting
the way that the whole processof milking camels.
Separating the camels from thecalves and, but that experience
of the Gobi, I'm saying, whichis not like dune y desert, there
(20:03):
are dunes that look like sanddunes, but a lot of it is, is
this dry kind of brush, youknow, it's like, um, there's a,
there's like intermittent bushesand it's
Daniel Rock (20:15):
More of a time, if my understanding is, is that
it's like kind of almost a colddesert rather than a hot desert.
If in that, like I know it canget hot, I'm showing my
ignorance here, but myunderstanding is there's more
green to it or brush to it thanthere is to, it's not a Sahara
or a, it must
Shebana (20:32):
not
Daniel Rock (20:32):
be very different.
Shebana (20:33):
yeah, it's.
Yeah, it would be like someparts of New Mexico too, in a
way, like, wouldn't say the highdesert, but it, yeah, it's not
like all sandy, there areportions that are that way, but
it's not like the Sahara, no,and then the, my last, season,
the winter I spent in BayanOlgi, which is a Kazakh, which
(20:54):
is right now on the border ofKazakhstan, that was entirely
different to mountainous in adifferent way, and the food was
different, and so, guess whatI'm saying, Mongolia did become
landscape to me, and like, theeverydayness of being out and
about in landscape, uh, herding,Herding making sounds, you know,
(21:17):
like there were sounds you made,people weren't herding with
animals, like with dogs as youmight, you made sounds to call
camels and sheep and goats andcows, different sounds for
different occasions.
And, uh, there was a song thatwas sung to lambs put a lamb
(21:40):
that had lost its calf and acalf that had lost its mother
to, to, to, to nurse together.
And, uh, There was a song thatwas sung to cement that bond,
like you sat and you sang to ayou and a calf.
A song that's like, like that.
Daniel Rock (22:10):
I, I do think, and it is an interesting, obviously
growing up in England, you know,I moved to, I moved, I lived in
New Zealand until I was 22, andI think we for the most part,
don't have that relationshipwith the land.
We just, it's not seen in thatway.
And I think my, a lot of that isthat, you know, it's an
incredibly population densecountry.
(22:32):
You know, England, you know, orthe UK is six, I think I'm
probably outta date, but, youknow, 62, 60 3 million people.
I moved to New Zealand, which atthe time is 4 million.
It's now 5 million people, butactually has almost exactly the
same square land area as the UKdoes.
So actually a lot less.
densely populated, but also hasits own indigenous population,
(22:56):
you know, multi people andwhat's, and I would never in any
way try to come across any kindof expert or knowledgeable in
this, but what does come acrossfrom the people that I've met
and know is that they do have amuch more symbolic and deeper
relationship with where theylive and.
Where they're from.
(23:16):
And, you know, um, you know, it,it, there's a, the word in Maori
called fuck a papa, which isthat kind of where you're from
your lineage, your history, yourgenealogy.
Um, and I think that that, and alot of that is tied to place and
to home and to location.
And I find that.
What I find really interesting,um, as I watch documentaries and
(23:37):
do stuff is that whilst everyindigenous culture is incredibly
different, that seems to purveyor, um, wrong word, but that
seems prevalent in almost everyindigenous culture that there is
a tie to land or that is part oftheir, their soul and their
(23:57):
background and their ancestry,which perhaps.
Us who have treated, you know,land as a colonizing, you know,
as someone from a colonizingcountry, it's always been seen
as very transactional, right?
It is, it is property.
It is to be owned.
It is to be dominated is to be,you know, even in the States now
where I live, you know, land isthere to provide for you.
(24:17):
It is not there to be part ofyou.
And I think I'd love to hear,you know, as you've kind of
moved back to States and in NewMexico, And moved amongst an
indigenous culture there.
Have you seen that similarrelationship to land and home
amongst the Zuni, um, people, oris it very different to what you
experienced in Mongolia?
Shebana (24:40):
Um, and again, I wouldn't want to speak again for
Ashvi or Zuni people.
I will just speak to what you'resaying.
I think we're all searching forour reconnecting to this place,
to the land we walk on.
And I, was a phrase that youjust said that I just, that
(25:01):
really resonated about.
you know, who we are inrelationship to land, like
searching for that or findingthat or wanting to be that, but
yes, I will say that the, thereis in Zuni, there's a mountain
that is sacred and that is on,you'll see when you see the, if
go to the Pueblo of Zuniwebsite, that mountain, that
(25:24):
mesa is, um, um, um, And I won'tsay the name of it because I
feel it should be said bysomeone.
But you will see a mesa that,that in English is called a corn
mountain.
And, um, so, um, I do, yeah, Imean, and it's different.
See, in New Mexico, kind ofnative populations, there's
(25:44):
nomadic populations that weretraditionally nomadic, like the,
like the Diné.
Uh, say, and the Apache, andthen there's what the Spanish,
because New Mexico was colonizedby the Spanish.
It was a colony of Spain.
then it became a part of the U.
S.
and there were, so people,indigenous people in New Mexico
have kind of gone through twobouts of colonization, say, the
(26:08):
Spanish and then what you wouldcall settler.
And certainly so, the, but the,there's 19 what are called
pueblos, which would mean placesthat are rooted here that
weren't, that did not, notnomadic.
So that connection to land isvery, very strong, for sure.
Here, stories about the land,mountains named, holy mountains,
(26:30):
sacred mountains, mountains youpray to.
So yes, that, that, thatconnection to land, um, I will
say, I will agree that I, Ithink that is maybe one of the
reasons that so many of us whoare, you know, who didn't grow
up in indigenous communities aredrawn to them the symbolically,
(26:51):
because think there is somethingwe are all seeking about
reconnecting.
To our, to land, because it'snot about providing for us, but
it's just like that symbioticconnection.
I mean, I think that's what,there is a kind of hunger that
(27:14):
sometimes I feel to just be atree, you know, or, you know,
It's like, that's what I want todance now.
I keep saying that.
I'm trying to figure out whatthat means, but I find myself
saying that so often that I, Iwant to more and more dance with
trees, under trees, for trees,in supplication to stone and
(27:35):
earth and like, and I think it'sa symbol, a metaphor a deeper,
hunger to simplify andreconnect.
And I don't think it takes doingas, I don't think it takes more
(27:56):
doing.
I think it just takes morebeing, you know, being, being
like, to be like, I can sit hereand feel connected to that tree
outside, just something likethat, you know.
Daniel Rock (28:10):
I think I understand.
I think it's one of the thingsthat I've.
Doing this podcast has kind ofmade me think a little bit
about, but also just in noticeof kind of, you know, my, the,
the way that my journey is, isit's very easy to feel lost or
not feel like there's a home or,and I think, you know, one of
the things I talked about in a,in a previous episode, um, is,
(28:34):
you know, people.
end ups that people are alwayssearching for connection,
searching for connection,searching for belonging.
And that can, um, kind of appearin different ways for people.
You know, it can be a verypositive thing.
You know, it can be, you know, Ibond with the land.
I, you know, I want to dance fortrees and I don't say that in a
mocking tone.
(28:55):
It's like that's a real positiveway to feel like you're
belonging.
You become belonging withnature, you're belonging with
the place that you're at.
And I think one of the perils ofmodern life is that we often
don't feel present.
You know, or we often aren'tpresent.
We have a six inch screen, um,three feet from our brains at
almost all times.
(29:15):
And we're distracted and wedon't pay attention.
And I can't remember the lasttime I watched a movie without
picking up my phone andscrolling the internet at some
point, you know, we're, we'renot present.
And I think that.
that connection to land andnature is a really good way of
doing it.
And I think that's a reallypositive manifestation of it.
You get negative manifestations,people join gangs, they do
things because they want to fitin or be part of things.
(29:35):
And I think that what I findreally interesting about talking
to people is hearing how theymanifest that sense of belonging
and how it presents them.
And You know, I think I've lovedthe story that you've been
telling me about this.
I think it's fascinating.
And I think you've, you've seensome beautiful things.
And one of the things you sortof mentioned in our initial
(29:56):
communications is thinking aboutwhat's next right for you and
where do you go and what's thenext stage of life for you.
So I'd love to hear a little bitabout kind of your thinking and
what it is you think you'reseeking in terms of home or what
you think that next step mightlook like for you.
Shebana (30:15):
Thank you for asking that.
I'm always, not always, but I'moften glad to reflect on that.
Um, I think when I think aboutwhat's next now, I want to
reflect on in really small ways.
Like to break into only whatmakes me happy, but ways I think
I use this word a lot to be ofservice, to be of, I, this keeps
(30:38):
coming up a lot for me, thisphrase, be of service.
And I think that does happenwhen you get in touch with what
really makes you happy.
Um, that doesn't mean it's easy.
all the things that make youhappy are easy journeys.
And, um, there is, um, I thinkit was, uh, there's a Quaker
(31:00):
writer named Parker Palmer andwrote a book about, you know,
that says something like, beforeyou tell your life you want from
it, listen to what it is askingof you.
Daniel Rock (31:13):
Mm hmm.
Silence.
Shebana (31:29):
like, I do feel and more at my essence, um, the
things that I love to do is Ilove to create, uh, kind of
these plays made of poetry anddance that are about, about
colonizations of
Daniel Rock (31:47):
Yep.
Yep.
Shebana (32:12):
more, uh, I also love facilitating creativity
workshops for people to writepoem like things and song like
things.
I say like things because Ithink we can be colonized by
structures of things too.
And especially in indigenouscommunities and communities of
color, there can be a real senseof, if you start saying, Using
(32:38):
English to teach something, itcan bring out a lot of trauma
because for a lot ofcommunities, English, learning
English was connected to traumain some way.
And so like, for example, when Iwas doing this workshop in Zuni
called Imagine FantasticFutures, go out of my way to,
(33:00):
like, I don't have any kind ofsyllabus like thing in the
beginning.
Like we just really play,because for a lot of people,
there is trauma around how theywere taught English.
Like not being able to, and thenalso their connection to their
own language.
So like, it's very, so, I, I'm,I really play try to put English
(33:22):
in its place, meaning it's a,it's a language that we use, but
it doesn't ennoble you to speakit or not speak it.
useful.
And in that same way, I wouldlike to put.
and money in its place, that isto say they're useful.
is literally ways to connect andtransact because we've chosen
(33:43):
that in the world.
Um, but how to, yeah, I do feelthis, I feel the next step
involves my speaking up in waysthat, May not be loud, but are,
uh, still a kind of revolution.
(34:03):
It's not loud is not necessarilya revolution.
So I feel like, um, speaking upwith a level of nuance or
creating with a level of nuanceor creating work that has this
kind of nuance that sees,
Daniel Rock (34:19):
It.
Shebana (34:20):
know, the, the sees the, yeah, yeah.
I don't, I don't have all thewords for it, but it's this,
there's a kind of speaking upand being present in a new way.
Daniel Rock (34:27):
Mhm.
I think there's, I think there'sso much in capture in that, you
know, there's that you can speakquietly and have a big impact.
I know the Teddy Roosevelt quoteis more, you know, speak softly
and carry a big stick.
But it's not that it is.
You can speak quietly and thosewords can carry meaning and they
can carry power.
(34:47):
And I really do believe in that.
And I think one of the otherthings that really resonated
with me, what you said there isI think one of the things that
makes us grow up too quickly andlose some of that wonder and joy
is when we put structure aroundcreativity.
I think, you know, when youhave, if you look at the joy
children get from drawing orfrom playing or putting on shows
(35:11):
for their parents in theirliving rooms, and, and I think
there's a wonder to that.
Because it's free form and it'susing their imagination and it's
creativity that I don't think wedo that as adults.
I think when you start to learncreativity as an adult, whether
that's learning art in highschool or whether that's, you
know,
Shebana (35:27):
Um,
Daniel Rock (35:51):
experiences of what you went through when you used
to enjoy something and thensomeone took the fun out of it.
And I think that to me, yes,that's on a minor level, but you
make that around a generation orpeople or, you know, even a race
that you do that on scale andyou've put that structure on
something that people used tohave joy in.
And I think you look at, Youknow how people used to tell
(36:14):
stories.
It wasn't written.
It was all oral history.
It was all, you know,communicated by poetry, by song,
by dance, by, you know, thestorytelling.
And then also no, no, you've gotto write it down.
It's got to go in a book.
It's got to follow thestructure.
You need to have the dates andthe times.
And I think that what you saidthere about helping people
connect to it in the way thatyou are, I think is incredibly
(36:37):
powerful and really meaningful.
You know, and I'm really, Ireally like that.
Shebana (36:44):
I'm still working with it.
It's, it's, it's, it is sonuanced, you know, Like, I will,
for example, I grew up readingEnid Blyton, who you might know,
the British
Daniel Rock (36:55):
writing books growing up, Secret Seven and
Famous Five.
Yep.
Shebana (37:17):
of Enid Blighton on generations of Indians.
And it's like this mixed thing.
You, kind of grew up imaginingthe British countryside, like I
grew up like dreaming of theMoors and like, um, you know,
Heather and like the first timeI saw him.
Uh, I mean, I ate a macaroon, Imean, all these things, you
know, so, but it's a kind oflike, you just were longing for
(37:38):
that.
I grew up reading Indian storiestoo, but I feel like I was kind
of colonized.
It was a different kind ofcolonization as the British were
leaving, all these stories werecoming in and they mingled with
the ennobling of English thatwas already in our culture from
the British being there for ahundred years.
And it kind of created anotherkind of reality where I grew up
thinking that I was better thanother Indians who spoke English
(38:02):
badly.
You know, I, I grew up going toelocution classes things like
this, right?
And, and, you know, Blighton isreal mixed.
And I will say, she had a seriesof books called the Magic
Faraway Tree, a group of, uh,these city kids moved to the
countryside and in, in, down inthe woods, find a tree that is
(38:27):
full of, uh, elves and pixiesand all kinds of different land
that was in the top of the tree.
You would climb up a ladder andthere was a different land that
swung into place and all ofthis.
Now that mix, that mixed withthe myths I read, these comic
book illustrations of theRamayana were like my
(38:51):
creativity, were like theseplaces of, of deep escape and
nourishment for me as a child ina city who wanted, who, who, who
for various reasons needed tolike live in her imagination.
And, and so.
It's so nuanced, the ways that,our encounter with each other
(39:15):
and other cultures and what wevalue shape us.
And I, I think that to unpackthat, it, it requires, you It
not requires, but it invites usto be free to explore.
And I I'm real proponent offeeling free.
(39:37):
I think you do need to like, youknow, you do need, it helps to
know how to build things.
Like if you're going to build ahouse, you need to know how
things work.
This is for making thingsstraight and this is for
structure.
So all the ways that we've.
All the structures we've createdabout how you write this and how
you write that are useful again,as long as you put them in your
(39:58):
place that they're useful toyou, as opposed to they're the
only way you can do it.
They are of use to you.
You choose, this is useful andthis is useful.
I choose this and I choose thatbecause it's for the thing I
want to build, the me that, inthe me ness of me, you know.
Daniel Rock (40:18):
I think that's perfect.
I think when you look at it thatway is it's you.
I think the way you said it acouple of times there is they
are tools.
And tools are there to be usedand they can be used in many
different ways.
You know, you know, a hammerisn't just about hammering nails
into a wood board, right?
You can use it for a number ofways.
You can use it for everycarpenter that might listen to
(40:39):
this might be yelling at mesaying, no, she only use it in a
certain way.
But, um, I think you've reallykind of to not pun somewhat
intended hit the nail on thehead with that in terms of, you
know, these things are usefuland.
the last sort of note on that,just on something you said
around that romanticization ofthe English countryside, you
(41:00):
know, and I think that in thatera, that was kind of what we
did.
And if you look at it now, it'sprobably the romanticization of
Hollywood or California or thebeaches, you know, in a media,
the way, you know, the way weconsume thing portrays things
into this, well, this is whatit's like, and this is the
perfect world.
And I need to fit that.
And I think.
Understanding this freedom andnot following that exact path
(41:24):
and using your imagination todetermine what is really
powerful.
And I think, you know, whatyou're doing with teaching
creativity and getting outsideof that is, is awesome.
You know, that awesome is a bitof a cliche word, but there's,
there's power in it and I thinkthat's, that's really
fascinating.
Um, I want to say thank you, um,for being our guest today.
I've really, really enjoyed ourconversation.
(41:45):
Um, really fascinating.
And you've got a fantasticstory.
So thank you so much for comingon.
Shabana.
I really do appreciate it.
Shebana (41:53):
Thank you.
It's been great.
I really appreciate thisopportunity to kind of reflect
deeply on, you know, journey andwhere we are and where we want
to go and how we connect to eachother.
I think it's, we're all in thistogether and I think, um, it's,
it's wonderful to connect likethis.
Daniel Rock (42:12):
Thank you so much.
And thank you for listening tothis episode of wherever I lay
my hat.
It's very much appreciated.
I love hearing comments from youand the feedback that we get.
Again, if you'd like to be partof the show and you've got a
story you'd like to tell, pleasereach out to dan at wherever I
lay my hat dot com.
And as usual, if you could likesubscribe, leave a review, leave
(42:33):
a comment that really helps theshow grow and gets us more
interesting thing.
People like Shabana to come onand tell their wonderful
stories.
So again, thank you so much.
And I look forward to seeing youall again soon.
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