December 22, 2025 • 36 mins
What if most relationship problems aren't about compatibility… they're about space?
Not physical space, but the mental and emotional bandwidth each person has to notice the nuances of life and love.
This conversation dives deep into why men often operate in binary mode (good/bad, on/off, working/broken) while women are juggling a dozen different variables at once.
Cam shares the provider mindset that keeps men focused on survival-level needs, even when everything "seems fine."
Elle explains why indirect communication, thinking you're being clear when you're actually speaking in code, leads to the surprise divorces men never see coming.
We break down the house-fire metaphor (there's smoke... one room is burning... half the house is on fire... and he still didn't move), explore the Love is Blind example that perfectly captures this dynamic, and talk about how to actually bridge the gap without resentment on either side.
This is real talk about partnership, presence, and what it actually takes to meet each other where you are.
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Cameron Hogan is an intuitive healer who helps high-performers shed their limiting beliefs and awaken. He is CEO of High Vibe Ventures, where he’s evolving work and business practices to match the planet’s rising consciousness. Cameron loves to write, speak at conferences, solve major life problems via courses, and build communities for meaningful connection like The Board.
Elle Beecher helps people find community and fall in love with their lives. Elle is founder and leader of The Board Walks, a global movement of weekly walks in multiple cities with over 16,000 attendees, and its premium extension called The Board. She writes openly about her experiences and 2 AM revelations in The Elle Diaries newsletter. She was awarded Forbes 30 Under 30 for her expertise in community building.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello everyone, welcome to Whimsy World.
We just had a beautiful conversation that we thought was
going to start with the topic ofweight gain but immediately went
to a complete different space, for lack of better terms.
We're talking about the different levels of space we
have with our partners and how it's leading to so much friction
and what we can do to better solve that.
I really, really enjoy this episode of some of my favorite
(00:20):
topics we've ever talked about. I love it.
We even had a little Love is Blind cameo in the episodes.
If you watch most recent season,you were going to see this
concept brought to life through a couple.
I'll let you find out who it is.No spoilers over here, but this
is a great conversation and we really, really hope that you
enjoy Part 2. Thanks y'all.
(00:43):
Yeah. And I, I think that that sets
the stage wonderfully for one thing that we've been going
through because this is well, this is my side of the journey
when it comes to like letting goof the need to look a certain
way, to have my makeup, my hair done, all this stuff.
Oh, by the way, shout out to my sister for getting me this air
dry hair set because I feel likemy hair looks so much less
(01:04):
frizzy. And I just woke up in the
morning. So Michaela, you a queen for
that. Thank you for the birthday gift.
Now, I want to talk about weightspecifically because this has
been something that when we first recorded the episode about
weight gain in a relationship, we were both I think like 10 or
(01:26):
15 or I'll speak to myself. I think it was like 10 or 15 lbs
over like the number in my head that like if I pass that number,
I'm ugly and you all know what I'm talking about.
Especially women and I think men.
Do men have that number? I don't think so.
What do men have? Men just know if they're looking
fat. Is it just like a look?
(01:46):
Yeah. OK.
So it's not a number. I don't believe so, no.
Not for me. For you, it hasn't ever been a
number. Interesting.
OK, so So what is it for you? Like, do you look at yourself
and you do what do you look for?I feel like for a lot of men
it's just if they like in the region above the waist, below
(02:09):
the neck, yeah. Like if you're developing like
man titties, that's a problem. If you are becoming more round
then the that's, that's like what we consider a problem.
That's really what you look at. Because as you get bigger, like
my arms have gotten bigger, right?
And like my legs, they look pretty much the exact same.
They do. And so that's like the area
(02:30):
where a lot of men just naturally store weight and it
really messes with them. Now everybody's a little bit
different and some like really gain a lot of weight in areas
that are very undesirable. But like, that's really where
it's at. And not like men aren't, are,
aren't usually as infatuated by the scale or by a certain number
or anything. It's more about do I look fat?
And, and, and the big one is like, do I get out of breath
(02:54):
walking up stairs? It's like the most like, you
know, life centered ones. It's like, would a woman think
I'm fat? That's huge.
You know, I'm sorry, I never thought that.
That's what it comes down. To I assume men had the same
thing where they had a number, but it's a lot more practical.
No, for OK, so that's for men and women.
(03:15):
Women there is like we talked about before in the previous
part of all the different data sets, right?
There's like 128 point inspection on all the things
that could be better or could bein the right place or if they're
not in the right place, got to fix whatever it is.
Men is very black and white. It's like, am I good looking or
am I ugly? Am I fat or am I fit?
Am I rich or am I broke? Like that's really how men
(03:39):
think. That's it.
And so it's it's very it's like that.
So when we're talking about gaining weight as a man for men,
it's like I'm fit, I'm fit, I'm fit, I'm fit, I'm fit.
Oh, now I'm fat. Even though each one was like up
another 10 lbs. It's like there reaches a
certain point where you're like,oh shit, oh shit, I got tits as
(04:03):
a man. That's really how it.
That's really how men process their weight.
That's how they process money. That's how they process
everything. It's OK to laugh.
Wait. Wait, wait, wait.
So yours. Oh my God.
(04:24):
Sweet. So you're saying it's like that
for every category? Yeah.
So it's. Like I have money, money my.
Oh shit, I'm broke. What the fuck?
Yeah. Are you?
Think about it like in relationships, romance,
relationships. We're good, we're good.
We're good, we're good. Divorce.
Fuck, you want to divorce? What the?
Wait, why is that so accurate? Yeah.
(04:47):
I never thought about that. Wait, OK, can we talk about,
because this is really fascinating.
Why is that? I mean, because they're not
doing the inspection everyday. So it's just like it's more
chill in their inner environmentand they're they're they don't
have as much like obsession overit.
So, so then it kind of like goesto the background and it's like,
(05:08):
oh, we good. Think about like what men, what
they really love, right? They love to feel utility.
They love to feel as if they're useful, right?
And so they love to get the job done.
There's like in our DNA, yeah. What do you to fix?
What do you need? All those other things?
I would say so for anything it'sthis is broken, I'm going to fix
(05:28):
it. I did or did not go to work
today. I did like all those other
things did the job we've done ornot.
It's that simple. It's like not a one track mind,
kind of like a two option mind. That's how we often times see
everything. And so for a lot of men, sadly,
I mean, there's a lot of things always pulling out our attention
(05:48):
at all given times, like we walkinto a mall or a restaurant.
And for a lot of men, I think wehave been able to kind of
transcend this, but we're like scanning for threats.
There's a lot on our awareness of all given times and a lot of
it's external. And so everything kind of
internal or that's kind of like an our immediate awareness, like
how's my relationship with my family?
(06:09):
Good. How's relationship with wife?
Good. How's my health good?
How's this good? And it's like, oh shit, she
wants a divorce. I guess that's bad.
Oh, fuck it. I put that on the shelf as like
it really. If you look at like the light
switches on the wall, that's howmen look at different parts of
life of like, is it on? Is it good or is it off?
(06:32):
Is it bad? That's really it.
And that was needed because so much of our awareness needed to
be somewhere to do the most highleverage thing and we couldn't
focus it everything at once. So like if you're going hunting
like back in the day, like we'reall primitive people, right?
And you're, and you're going to try to hunt food for the rest of
(06:53):
the tribe. You can't really be thinking
about like, you know, how's my, how's my daughter's life going
right now? Is it, is it, how is she?
I know she just, you know, she got a new friend and that whole
thing happened. Is she OK there?
That, that was difficult to think about because you were
like, I got to hunt this thing for everybody.
(07:14):
So all these other little observations, contemplations,
they're all kind of put aside. It's like today I'm here and
nowadays it's like I'm here to go to work, do a good job, don't
get fired, potentially put myself in line to make more
money and get more affirmation, whatever that may look like,
more compensation to feed them better.
So I just got to focus solely onthis and then it'll make
(07:38):
everything else good. This is why, like a lot of men
lose themselves in work and it'sactually coming from survival
mode place. It's not really coming from
them, not, you know, loving their family.
It's because in their mind, it'slike, if I don't hunt down this
animal, everyone starves and starvation is a whole lot worse
than them having a bad day at school.
(08:00):
So I'm going to work on make sure everyone's getting fed and
then everything else will kind of figure itself out.
So that really kind of started the the two way thinking,
thinking for men. And that's just how men have
always been wired and may alwaysbe wired.
And you know, I would say I'm definitely because I, I
understand this really well, butthat's only because a lot of my
(08:21):
life I've had the space to contemplate and go deeper into
many different aspects of life, which is an incredible blessing
and privilege to have. Like if I didn't have resources,
if I didn't have the level of intelligence that I do, full
transparency, if I didn't have the communication skills and
experiences that I've had, my life would be completely
(08:43):
different. I'd be so focused on making rent
and those other things to the utmost maximum.
The time I'm spending all my life for us, that has been,
it'll be very difficult for me to reflect and contemplate the
nuances of romantic relationships, which is, you
know, what we do now that may that has helped a lot of people
through these different modalities.
And so it takes more space and alot of men don't have that space
(09:05):
now. Now This is why let's say a
single mother who has four kids doesn't have the same amount of
space, even though she may stillbe as self-conscious as any
other woman or mother out there.The nuances of each child, the
nuances of her own spiritual growth, personal development.
It isn't as important as I need food and to able to feed my 4
(09:29):
kids or I need to pay for these medical bills to do that and
that. And so sadly, some people in a
state where they don't have the space think about the nuances of
these things. And to some extent that may be
of privilege because life would feel more simple.
But also it's a curse because you never really get to
reflecting contemplate on the things that would actually make
your life go from good to great,and to take the steps necessary
(09:54):
to make sure they never turn badagain, or whatever.
The equation may be there but for men.
The light switch. It's a light switch.
That's exactly how they think. It's like money, OK now good.
It wasn't a few years ago but now we good and then.
So sadly, often times they make decisions from a place of good,
like a huge car payment or just spend too much on certain things
(10:16):
that buy a freaking boat. And now it's like, oh shit,
light switch is now bad. Oh crap you don't like without
them really realizing. It's the same for food.
I'm like, I'm in good shape. Especially when they're younger
and they're, you know, 20s. They don't really have to worry
about their body. And then they crash in their 30s
because they're living off the habits that their their body can
afford to do in the 20s, but doesn't carry over there.
(10:37):
They don't see the nuances of the light switch and and looking
at it all the time everyday. So that's how a man's perception
to bring it all back of themselves isn't of reality is.
And so for a lot of men, it takes getting to the extreme
worst side of the spectrum for them to to be Jarred and to wake
(11:01):
up it. It often times takes like a
serious health issue, like a wife asking for divorce.
You know, something happened with the kid, whatever it is for
them to be like, oh crap, I got to look at my life.
Wow, it's so it's basically likeif the check engine light isn't
on I'm not looking. At it.
(11:21):
That's exactly it. But it's not even check engine
light. It's like the check engine.
Like not it can't only be yellow, needs to be red.
Wow. You know, he reminds me of this
short story that I read a couplemonths ago from this woman who
had just gone through a divorce.And she compared what happened
(11:41):
in their relationship to a houseCatching Fire.
And it was like, you imagine you're in a room and the the
fire's just starting and you feel the smoke.
And it's like she's like, I wentup to him and said there's smoke
in the house and he didn't move.And then I went up to him and
said one of the rooms is on fireand he didn't move.
(12:05):
I went up to him and said the whole half of the house is on
fire and he didn't move. I went up into him and said this
is the only room left and that'swhen he moved, but that it was
too late. And that's how it feels, I
think, in a lot of relationshipsbecause of what you're
articulating. And I think both men and women
are missing each other in this because I didn't even fully
(12:27):
realize it was that binary in men's mind.
But it does make total sense because you're wired to just
solve the problem right in frontof you.
But if you don't know there's a problem, and this is where it's
on the woman to be as direct as possible while also recognizing
(12:49):
that this man's trying his best because that's where a lot of
the breakdowns that he Cam and Ihave seen happen because women
will communicate in an indirect way thinking they're being
direct. So it'll be like, I asked you to
take the trash out and you didn't take the trash out.
And that that is actually a codered.
(13:09):
But the man's thinking, OK, I'lljust take it out because you're
not communicating what's underneath that, which is you're
dropping the ball. And it's really making me sad.
And I don't know if I can count on you right now.
That is what speaks to the man'sheart.
If you speak just to his mind, he's going to solve the problem
(13:29):
right in front of him. He's going to take that trash
out because you asked him to. If you don't ever get past that
to the deeper layer of what is actually impacting you and how
you're actually experiencing this man, he will not know for
the reasons that Cam disarticulated.
And that's what's so sad is you have a lot of really good woman
(13:50):
and good men who are missing each other like 2 ships in the
night because both sides are doing their best.
The woman thinks she's communicating her needs, but
she's not really communicating the deepest need because that
requires vulnerability. And that requires putting
yourself out there and saying, hey, I'm drowning here and I'm
(14:11):
going to need something to change.
Are you willing to to change your behavior or help me here?
And, and I'm saying this in a concise way, but I would
recommend women say that differently.
And then the man actually has anopportunity to respond knowing
that there's a check engine light on.
But if that does not happen in aconducive way, it leads to the
(14:32):
surprise divorce that the man didn't see coming.
Yeah, and it's all about the level of space that each person
has. Yeah.
And I mean, humans have really had it rough the past few
thousand years, even with the past like 50 years, it's been
pretty freaking rough. And you know, I, I try them this
(14:53):
very lightly, But you know, a huge part of the women's
empowerment movement have been because there was a necessary,
there was a necessary need for women to work to make enough
money to also help support the family.
So yes, they're finally able to do the jobs that men have always
done, but also often times it wasn't coming from a place of
(15:15):
wanting to. Is it coming from a place of
needing to and they're finally allowed to do the thing that
they needed to do to help their family survive.
There's many factors in place for that and including like
especially inflation being a huge part of it because now both
parents needed to bring home thefood and shelter for them to be
able to make it. But thankfully that was, I guess
(15:37):
the more darker side of it. But thankfully recently as women
have gotten so much more spending power and so much more
education, often times it has allowed for them to reach a
certain level where they have the space.
Now that everything's OK, they're kind of out of survival
mode of make sure the rent is paid and all those other things.
They've had this space to realize the nuances of life.
(16:00):
And sadly, I think this has happened since dawn of time,
whether it's women nowadays who have transcended a lot of the
survival things that we still need in in this modern economy.
And also this is very similar traits that a lot of women had
back in the day when they were just housewives.
They didn't have to work, you know, they had their own jobs at
home of the kids and everything going on there.
(16:20):
Both of them were able to have the space enough to care about
the nuances of their life where for men, and this is still the
case, even though there there has been massive strides of this
getting better, it still isn't where it needs to be.
Men are still in the spot we just talked about.
The light switch is like a man wakes up is like my life is
(16:44):
making sure these people are fedand have shelter.
So my life is I got to get up and go to freaking work.
I don't care how hard it is. I don't.
I don't care if they send me offto war.
I don't care if I have to work 12/16 hour days construction and
freezing cold weather. I I don't care what it looks
like, how boring it is, how lifeless it is, how against my
(17:06):
passion is. Whatever, whatever I have to
sacrifice my hobbies, my creativity's, other things I'm
going to do because these peoplethat I deeply love need to be
taken care of. So when that sacrifice is made,
even when they come home that day from work, they are still
thinking about how that day went.
(17:28):
What are the chances of them getting fired?
What other things did they have put on their plate that day that
actually isn't even in their jobdescription, but they must do to
appease a certain person or to make the certain goal happen to
allow the stability of making sure everyone he loves is is fed
(17:49):
and has shelter. There's so many things going on
when it comes to work when it comes to nowadays being
infiltrated with a million different things of making sure
the food isn't poisoned, making sure like the the right
politicians in office, I got to vote correctly the next time.
All those other things that theythink about in their head, they
literally do not have the space to recognize that they're
falling short on the household tasks like taking out the trash
(18:13):
or whatever it may be. Now a woman in this case, often
times and this this could work for a man and man relationship,
a woman and woman relationship. This is just in general.
It was often times any relationship someone who has
more space than the others and and woman for the historically
has always had more space than men.
And so that's why women would say things like, well, they
(18:35):
should just know. They should just see and then be
able to do it. It's.
Just obvious. It's just obvious.
Well, it's obvious to someone with space.
It is not obvious to someone that does not yet have the
space. And there's many factors in
place of why someone may not have the space.
Like I said, there's there is the the immense amount of
distractions and obligations andresponsibilities that are far
(18:59):
outside what should be in place.Often times the societal factors
in place that lead to this huge weight, especially on men's
shoulders that stop them from seeing the obvious.
And so when what whoever it is in this case with a woman or
man, but let's say woman has more space in relationship,
she's going to see things that the man, the man simply cannot
(19:22):
focus on. And even when brought to his
intention, attention, when he has the equation of his life of
what really matters in all this is making sure I bring home
enough money to make sure they are OK.
The little subtle things don't seem important to him.
So like if if you were to come to, let's say I was which I'm
(19:45):
more and more every someday deepon my purpose and and and caring
about a lot of macro things in terms of our life.
It would take me living a life where I create a lot of space to
actively care about a random conversation out of the friend
that day or like what dress you're going to wear that night.
(20:06):
And I can generally be fully focused and be like, Oh yeah, I
think the blue looks better thanthe black.
Like it, it takes a lot of. Presence in space that most
people don't have to care about those details fully.
It's like their mind and being is in a different place.
So that has been I think the fall of some relationships
because there is a dissonance inhow much space is available
(20:27):
which leads to a different life problems and it's hard for
someone to solve a more nuanced life problem when they're at a
lower state just trying to get the survival needs met for
oftentimes everyone. And again, there's a lot of the
stuff that keeps them down there, like suppressed angers
and then, you know, relationships with certain
people that that 'cause these things to happen and it is their
responsibility to learn that. But also giving people grace
(20:49):
that the world has conspired against them, not looking at
those things. And I've actually taught them
the worst things possible that would not that would not allow
them to heal and have the space of that nuance.
There's so much in this equationthat that's causing the
dissonance. And just like you're saying
though, but like there reach a certain point where yeah,
(21:09):
there's a distance there, but this is a relationship trying to
make work and if one person has needs not being met, something
must be done about that, right? So.
Yeah, and and I think grounding this in a recent pop culture
example immediately came to mindis Love is Blind Sparkle, Megan
Jordan, textbook definition of this.
(21:30):
If you didn't watch the season, it it was a really good one.
A lot of a really classic relationship dynamics from like
what happens when a man doesn't find a woman attractive, but
then pretends that he does. You know, with the the you know
what I'm talking about Joe and the girl.
So from all those to this one, I'm going to bring this one to
life because what Cam just said I think is so true, but it's
(21:52):
hard to visualize. So if you want to understand
this on a deeper level, I recommend watching the season of
love is blind and paying attention to Jordan and sparkle
Mag. What was happening here?
Jordan is a single dad. He has a young son who's five
years old. He also has type 1 diabetes and
so he works a full time job as like a factory manager of some
(22:14):
kind. So it's a very physical job.
He's in and out of like desks and and desk work and moving.
He manages a huge team managing factory like machinery and
appliances to my understanding. And so when he went to love his
blind, how the experiment works is it's all in these pods where
you're sitting there and you're going in and out of
(22:36):
conversations with a wall, basically like you're, you're
just hearing someone's voice. And in that scenario, Jordan had
space. He had way more space.
He had nothing but space becauseall his focus was on was going
into these pods and having conversations for hours at a
(22:57):
time. So he had an abundance of what
Cam was talking about with like,wow, my binary goal right now is
to be in this conversation and to be myself and to just see
what happens. Now when he ended up proposing
to Sparkle Meg, they go back to their home environment and what
happens? He doesn't have space anymore.
(23:19):
He's now back to work. He's taking care of his son who
has diabetes. And what happened in this one
scene when they were in the closet was she's like, you're a
different person than you were two weeks ago.
Like, you don't want to talk to me anymore.
You don't want to spend time with me anymore.
You don't ask me any questions about myself.
(23:42):
You're not curious about my life.
You can't come to my plans playing tennis with my friends
at 2:00 PM. Like, you're different.
It's like he's not different. He just doesn't have the space.
He's now in an environment whereall the things Cam just said are
now his number one priority. He's a provider.
He takes care of his son. He goes to work.
(24:02):
And then when he gets home, he got quiet because he's, like Cam
said, processing all the different elements of that day,
all the stressors from work, allthe office politics.
Oh, you know, is Luca? Does he have practice tomorrow?
What do I need to, like, set aside on his bed for what he has
to wear? All these little things are now
dominating his mind in his space.
(24:25):
And there was none left for her.And he probably thought he was
doing his absolute best. He probably thought the fact
that I'm present with you shouldbe enough.
The fact that I'm spending time with you, even if my mind is
elsewhere, should be enough. That's how someone who doesn't
have space perceives what's going on.
Physical presence should be enough.
(24:47):
I'm breaking my back to be physically here with you.
That's not what the woman wants,though.
She wants more than physical presence.
She wants a man who's not only physically there, but
emotionally present, curious, having this space to ask
questions. But that's not the reality for
most men, and that is where the breakdown starts to happen.
(25:08):
So I thought that was a phenomenal example because you
literally saw this happen in real time, and I don't think
people really understood what was going on there.
But it was the space issue. You go from a big old field of
space to a narrow hallway of space, and that's what makes
relationships breakdown. It's all about the space.
It's a perfect example because Jordan, just like most people,
(25:29):
but especially men in this case scenario, all he really cares
about is making sure goes to work, gets paid because now he
has a kid to, well, he's had a kid the past five years who take
care of who has diabetes. So he needs to make sure that
kid is just like every other kid, fed, taken to school, has
the right clothes, you know, hasenough money to get the right
Christmas gift, whatever it may be, but also diabetes medication
(25:51):
to make sure his hospital visitsare in are, you know, good to
go. All that.
That's a lot going on. And if you're managing people at
work often times and you're on your feet for let's say 8/10/12
hours a day, you just need to gohome and just process and rest.
That's not really cut out in thenormal work day.
And So what he probably wants ina partner right now, if he wants
to continue to do that lifestyleis someone who when he goes
(26:13):
home, they just kind of chill and they probably would just
watch, watch a show, a show. And that's.
Exactly what they did. You know, they, they'll go out
date night to a nice place once every month or maybe once every
week if they're really feeling themselves like something like
that. And that's really about it.
But they take care of Luca. They take him to practice.
They take him to school. That is what he actually needed.
(26:36):
And that's what he has a space for.
Now, Sparkle Meg named Sparkle Meg because she's wearing a lot
of jewelry. She very rich on the show.
And so for someone who has, let's say, several $1,000,000 in
the bank and has a home in LA that flies to Colorado and, you
know, 10 AM on a random Tuesday is having, you know, Sangria's
(27:00):
with her, with her friends on the ski slopes.
And then, you know, let's say a few hours a week is, you know,
doing some real estate things. And then a few hours a week is
do whatever she wants to do. But she has thankfully graduated
to a place in terms of wealth where she can focus her time on
higher leverage tasks like investing, like starting a
(27:21):
business that doesn't need so much for time that she has the
space to just be and live more. So when you are in that state
and you have the space to, like we saw on the show, invest
yourself in a spirituality to, yeah, just just live life based
upon what feels aligned for you,where money isn't really the
(27:44):
problem. She didn't really have to think
about how much she spent in groceries or something like that
in comparison to Jordan. They're going to have a complete
different level of space for nuances and just overall
conversations because they have different responsibilities.
Now someone like Jordan doesn't have the understanding that, Oh
(28:05):
my gosh, the thing I'm spending all my time towards my job
mostly, maybe I don't need to dothat.
And maybe I can learn what Sparkle Meg has done and
potentially if we get married, help contribute to her lifestyle
through helping her manage real estate or start the new
business. They're actually give me more of
(28:25):
my time back and more of my space back.
So I'm more, I have more of a conducive reality to what I did
when I was in the show and really deeply connected.
But someone at that current state, someone who's middle
class literally doesn't have thespace to fathom what life can
look like and what it would taketo become an upper class person.
Therefore, they never do. And therefore, even if they have
(28:48):
the perfect opportunity put intotheir lap like he kind of did,
they'll find a way to ruin it because you're just not used to.
They don't have the space to to see how things can work.
Zoom out. Yeah.
And This is why, like, you know,people who start a business or
people start a podcast, whateverit is, it takes a certain amount
of space to do that. That people who don't have that
(29:10):
level of space literally cannot fathom what it would take to
make a podcast work or to make asuccessful business work.
But once you do have enough space, you can't imagine living
a life where you go in a place where you're only working hourly
again for someone else for 12 hours a day.
It's like the space is everything.
When there is that that distinction between two people,
(29:31):
that is where I think the far, far, far majority of
relationship problems take place.
Right. I totally agree.
Yeah, I love hearing your perspective on that and I feel
like it's a great example of what you're talking about
because even though that wasn't what we intended to talk about
today, I. Think it was perfect?
I feel like it was perfect and very needed because I don't
think I think this is really oneof those things that if
(29:53):
everybody understood this, we would have a world with a lot
much just easier communication, low conflict and real deep
understanding of everyone is doing their best.
And how do I communicate from myheart's deepest desire than what
my mind is assigning to the feeling that I'm having.
(30:15):
And Cam and I have talked about this so often recently where we
even talked about it yesterday with that thing that happened to
me on the walk in in a completely different context.
Long story short, I had this guywho was a regular on the walk
years ago and then he like reamed me one day for like an
hour and a half just like insulted me.
(30:37):
And granted, it wasn't trying tobe insulting, but he was just
like laying on all these accusations on me.
That was very unexpected. And I was asking Cam like, what
was that? And we were kind of revisiting
it, and he was seeing it from this perspective of like, he had
a feeling that he tried to put words to.
(31:00):
But when people have a feeling and they try to put words to it,
it's usually not the most accurate set of words.
It's the set of words that is least offensive to their own
ego. And it's the set of words that
often blames the other person. So instead of saying the truth
(31:21):
of the feeling, which is you shine so brightly, it makes me
feel insecure. What ends up coming out is you
think everyone's obsessed with you.
And so you see how it's like, there's a feeling that we then
assign words to, but a lot of the time it's not me focused
because it requires a lot of accountability and reflection to
(31:42):
make it me focused. It gets turned into the other
person focused. And I think that's exactly what
these fights devolve into when people have a difference in
space. It devolves into someone's
having a feeling. So the woman's having a feeling
that she's overwhelmed, that theman's dropping the ball, that
she can't rely on the man in this moment, and that their
(32:04):
relationship is suffering. But what does she say instead?
You never remember to take out the trash.
And then at that example, the man literally cannot fathom the.
Context. Where taking out the trash would
be that big of a deal. And that's where it starts.
(32:24):
Right. And so because oftentimes both
parties are unable to see the underlying emotion taking place
and what that actually means. And for the woman in this case,
it's probably like I'm not feeling fully seen.
I'm not feeling as if I'm able to get your full presence.
And also, I believe the responsibilities that we have in
(32:45):
this life, even though you're doing a fantastic and this Ave.,
there's another Ave. that I'd love for you to do better in.
I would love for you to, to, to meet me where I'm at.
And also I'd love for you to letme know if there's anything I
can do better in that way. There's like a, there's many
different ways that that conversation can be had.
That's actually the deepest truth because the whole you
(33:08):
never take out the trash. I remember, you know, just funny
because everyone just kind of like strikes up a conversation
with us. I remember getting massaged by
one woman and she told me after I, I kind of mentioned what we
did. She was like, yeah, I've been
with my husband for 40 years. We don't really talk that much
anymore. You know, he just, he never puts
the shoes back, You know, where where we have it organized in
(33:30):
the, in the shoe rack, in the garage.
He never does this, never does that.
Just talk about the smallest things.
And, you know, in my head, I'm like, it's not actually about
that. Like, who gives a shit?
If he was perfect in all different ways, you wouldn't
care about the shoes. It's about something deeper.
And so this is where the distance come in because there's
a space differentiator and then that is leading to what feels as
(33:55):
if along with people unable to understand, they're not able to
speak the exact truth that is leading to a formula for
failure. That's so true and I'm so glad
we talked about it. Yeah, yeah.
I feel like we didn't go as deepon the weight thing as I was
anticipating, but that's all right.
(34:16):
Maybe that means that when you talk about that another time.
But I think this is an absolute phenomenal conversation, my
love. And thank you for, as always,
bringing so much heart and presence and phenomenal ideas to
the conversation. You are a literal king and I
love you. I love you.
Thank you for being here with me.
(34:36):
I love you, sweetie. I love you.
Hope you all enjoyed. We are so happy to be back,
back, back on these beautiful couches and we are very much
hoping to be more consistent. We're kind of implementing some
strategies right now to like wake up and record every day.
Now, I don't think that they'll be going on this channel.
I could be wrong, but they'll begoing on our personal channels
(34:59):
just kind of popping on and talking about whatever is live
for us. So this episode is our our
return to the good news. So we hope you enjoyed it.
If anything stood out to you, please feel free to leave a
comment or if you have any questions or anything that you
really, really, really want to dive into deeper, please let us
(35:21):
know because that gives us some inspiration.
We love talking about all thingsnow, just not in the love and
relationship category alone. But you know, we always love
talking about that. So it always kind of turns back
to that road. But the one last thing we want
to mention is that we would lovefor you to leave reviews.
And if you take screenshots of your reviews, the five star
(35:44):
reviews across platforms and e-mail them, you'll see it in
the description. You'll get a fun little surprise
prize. Oh, from Cami and I and we're
just very grateful. We really want this show to
reach more people. It also motivates us to sit and
record more consistently. And we have a lot of followers
of this show, but like 16 reviews on Spotify, and we
(36:06):
really want to up that number. So thank you guys for being
here. If you got any value, that would
be such a gift in a reciprocal exchange to leave a review if
you enjoy our conversations. So thank you guys so much.
We're so grateful. We love you.
Bye.
Hello everyone, welcome to Whimsy World.
We just had a beautiful conversation that we thought was
going to start with the topic ofweight gain but immediately went
to a complete different space, for lack of better terms.
We're talking about the different levels of space we
have with our partners and how it's leading to so much friction
and what we can do to better solve that.
I really, really enjoy this episode of some of my favorite
(00:20):
topics we've ever talked about. I love it.
We even had a little Love is Blind cameo in the episodes.
If you watch most recent season,you were going to see this
concept brought to life through a couple.
I'll let you find out who it is.No spoilers over here, but this
is a great conversation and we really, really hope that you
enjoy Part 2. Thanks y'all.
(00:43):
Yeah. And I, I think that that sets
the stage wonderfully for one thing that we've been going
through because this is well, this is my side of the journey
when it comes to like letting goof the need to look a certain
way, to have my makeup, my hair done, all this stuff.
Oh, by the way, shout out to my sister for getting me this air
dry hair set because I feel likemy hair looks so much less
(01:04):
frizzy. And I just woke up in the
morning. So Michaela, you a queen for
that. Thank you for the birthday gift.
Now, I want to talk about weightspecifically because this has
been something that when we first recorded the episode about
weight gain in a relationship, we were both I think like 10 or
(01:26):
15 or I'll speak to myself. I think it was like 10 or 15 lbs
over like the number in my head that like if I pass that number,
I'm ugly and you all know what I'm talking about.
Especially women and I think men.
Do men have that number? I don't think so.
What do men have? Men just know if they're looking
fat. Is it just like a look?
(01:46):
Yeah. OK.
So it's not a number. I don't believe so, no.
Not for me. For you, it hasn't ever been a
number. Interesting.
OK, so So what is it for you? Like, do you look at yourself
and you do what do you look for?I feel like for a lot of men
it's just if they like in the region above the waist, below
(02:09):
the neck, yeah. Like if you're developing like
man titties, that's a problem. If you are becoming more round
then the that's, that's like what we consider a problem.
That's really what you look at. Because as you get bigger, like
my arms have gotten bigger, right?
And like my legs, they look pretty much the exact same.
They do. And so that's like the area
(02:30):
where a lot of men just naturally store weight and it
really messes with them. Now everybody's a little bit
different and some like really gain a lot of weight in areas
that are very undesirable. But like, that's really where
it's at. And not like men aren't, are,
aren't usually as infatuated by the scale or by a certain number
or anything. It's more about do I look fat?
And, and, and the big one is like, do I get out of breath
(02:54):
walking up stairs? It's like the most like, you
know, life centered ones. It's like, would a woman think
I'm fat? That's huge.
You know, I'm sorry, I never thought that.
That's what it comes down. To I assume men had the same
thing where they had a number, but it's a lot more practical.
No, for OK, so that's for men and women.
(03:15):
Women there is like we talked about before in the previous
part of all the different data sets, right?
There's like 128 point inspection on all the things
that could be better or could bein the right place or if they're
not in the right place, got to fix whatever it is.
Men is very black and white. It's like, am I good looking or
am I ugly? Am I fat or am I fit?
Am I rich or am I broke? Like that's really how men
(03:39):
think. That's it.
And so it's it's very it's like that.
So when we're talking about gaining weight as a man for men,
it's like I'm fit, I'm fit, I'm fit, I'm fit, I'm fit.
Oh, now I'm fat. Even though each one was like up
another 10 lbs. It's like there reaches a
certain point where you're like,oh shit, oh shit, I got tits as
(04:03):
a man. That's really how it.
That's really how men process their weight.
That's how they process money. That's how they process
everything. It's OK to laugh.
Wait. Wait, wait, wait.
So yours. Oh my God.
(04:24):
Sweet. So you're saying it's like that
for every category? Yeah.
So it's. Like I have money, money my.
Oh shit, I'm broke. What the fuck?
Yeah. Are you?
Think about it like in relationships, romance,
relationships. We're good, we're good.
We're good, we're good. Divorce.
Fuck, you want to divorce? What the?
Wait, why is that so accurate? Yeah.
(04:47):
I never thought about that. Wait, OK, can we talk about,
because this is really fascinating.
Why is that? I mean, because they're not
doing the inspection everyday. So it's just like it's more
chill in their inner environmentand they're they're they don't
have as much like obsession overit.
So, so then it kind of like goesto the background and it's like,
(05:08):
oh, we good. Think about like what men, what
they really love, right? They love to feel utility.
They love to feel as if they're useful, right?
And so they love to get the job done.
There's like in our DNA, yeah. What do you to fix?
What do you need? All those other things?
I would say so for anything it'sthis is broken, I'm going to fix
(05:28):
it. I did or did not go to work
today. I did like all those other
things did the job we've done ornot.
It's that simple. It's like not a one track mind,
kind of like a two option mind. That's how we often times see
everything. And so for a lot of men, sadly,
I mean, there's a lot of things always pulling out our attention
(05:48):
at all given times, like we walkinto a mall or a restaurant.
And for a lot of men, I think wehave been able to kind of
transcend this, but we're like scanning for threats.
There's a lot on our awareness of all given times and a lot of
it's external. And so everything kind of
internal or that's kind of like an our immediate awareness, like
how's my relationship with my family?
(06:09):
Good. How's relationship with wife?
Good. How's my health good?
How's this good? And it's like, oh shit, she
wants a divorce. I guess that's bad.
Oh, fuck it. I put that on the shelf as like
it really. If you look at like the light
switches on the wall, that's howmen look at different parts of
life of like, is it on? Is it good or is it off?
(06:32):
Is it bad? That's really it.
And that was needed because so much of our awareness needed to
be somewhere to do the most highleverage thing and we couldn't
focus it everything at once. So like if you're going hunting
like back in the day, like we'reall primitive people, right?
And you're, and you're going to try to hunt food for the rest of
(06:53):
the tribe. You can't really be thinking
about like, you know, how's my, how's my daughter's life going
right now? Is it, is it, how is she?
I know she just, you know, she got a new friend and that whole
thing happened. Is she OK there?
That, that was difficult to think about because you were
like, I got to hunt this thing for everybody.
(07:14):
So all these other little observations, contemplations,
they're all kind of put aside. It's like today I'm here and
nowadays it's like I'm here to go to work, do a good job, don't
get fired, potentially put myself in line to make more
money and get more affirmation, whatever that may look like,
more compensation to feed them better.
So I just got to focus solely onthis and then it'll make
(07:38):
everything else good. This is why, like a lot of men
lose themselves in work and it'sactually coming from survival
mode place. It's not really coming from
them, not, you know, loving their family.
It's because in their mind, it'slike, if I don't hunt down this
animal, everyone starves and starvation is a whole lot worse
than them having a bad day at school.
(08:00):
So I'm going to work on make sure everyone's getting fed and
then everything else will kind of figure itself out.
So that really kind of started the the two way thinking,
thinking for men. And that's just how men have
always been wired and may alwaysbe wired.
And you know, I would say I'm definitely because I, I
understand this really well, butthat's only because a lot of my
(08:21):
life I've had the space to contemplate and go deeper into
many different aspects of life, which is an incredible blessing
and privilege to have. Like if I didn't have resources,
if I didn't have the level of intelligence that I do, full
transparency, if I didn't have the communication skills and
experiences that I've had, my life would be completely
(08:43):
different. I'd be so focused on making rent
and those other things to the utmost maximum.
The time I'm spending all my life for us, that has been,
it'll be very difficult for me to reflect and contemplate the
nuances of romantic relationships, which is, you
know, what we do now that may that has helped a lot of people
through these different modalities.
And so it takes more space and alot of men don't have that space
(09:05):
now. Now This is why let's say a
single mother who has four kids doesn't have the same amount of
space, even though she may stillbe as self-conscious as any
other woman or mother out there.The nuances of each child, the
nuances of her own spiritual growth, personal development.
It isn't as important as I need food and to able to feed my 4
(09:29):
kids or I need to pay for these medical bills to do that and
that. And so sadly, some people in a
state where they don't have the space think about the nuances of
these things. And to some extent that may be
of privilege because life would feel more simple.
But also it's a curse because you never really get to
reflecting contemplate on the things that would actually make
your life go from good to great,and to take the steps necessary
(09:54):
to make sure they never turn badagain, or whatever.
The equation may be there but for men.
The light switch. It's a light switch.
That's exactly how they think. It's like money, OK now good.
It wasn't a few years ago but now we good and then.
So sadly, often times they make decisions from a place of good,
like a huge car payment or just spend too much on certain things
(10:16):
that buy a freaking boat. And now it's like, oh shit,
light switch is now bad. Oh crap you don't like without
them really realizing. It's the same for food.
I'm like, I'm in good shape. Especially when they're younger
and they're, you know, 20s. They don't really have to worry
about their body. And then they crash in their 30s
because they're living off the habits that their their body can
afford to do in the 20s, but doesn't carry over there.
(10:37):
They don't see the nuances of the light switch and and looking
at it all the time everyday. So that's how a man's perception
to bring it all back of themselves isn't of reality is.
And so for a lot of men, it takes getting to the extreme
worst side of the spectrum for them to to be Jarred and to wake
(11:01):
up it. It often times takes like a
serious health issue, like a wife asking for divorce.
You know, something happened with the kid, whatever it is for
them to be like, oh crap, I got to look at my life.
Wow, it's so it's basically likeif the check engine light isn't
on I'm not looking. At it.
(11:21):
That's exactly it. But it's not even check engine
light. It's like the check engine.
Like not it can't only be yellow, needs to be red.
Wow. You know, he reminds me of this
short story that I read a couplemonths ago from this woman who
had just gone through a divorce.And she compared what happened
(11:41):
in their relationship to a houseCatching Fire.
And it was like, you imagine you're in a room and the the
fire's just starting and you feel the smoke.
And it's like she's like, I wentup to him and said there's smoke
in the house and he didn't move.And then I went up to him and
said one of the rooms is on fireand he didn't move.
(12:05):
I went up to him and said the whole half of the house is on
fire and he didn't move. I went up into him and said this
is the only room left and that'swhen he moved, but that it was
too late. And that's how it feels, I
think, in a lot of relationshipsbecause of what you're
articulating. And I think both men and women
are missing each other in this because I didn't even fully
(12:27):
realize it was that binary in men's mind.
But it does make total sense because you're wired to just
solve the problem right in frontof you.
But if you don't know there's a problem, and this is where it's
on the woman to be as direct as possible while also recognizing
(12:49):
that this man's trying his best because that's where a lot of
the breakdowns that he Cam and Ihave seen happen because women
will communicate in an indirect way thinking they're being
direct. So it'll be like, I asked you to
take the trash out and you didn't take the trash out.
And that that is actually a codered.
(13:09):
But the man's thinking, OK, I'lljust take it out because you're
not communicating what's underneath that, which is you're
dropping the ball. And it's really making me sad.
And I don't know if I can count on you right now.
That is what speaks to the man'sheart.
If you speak just to his mind, he's going to solve the problem
(13:29):
right in front of him. He's going to take that trash
out because you asked him to. If you don't ever get past that
to the deeper layer of what is actually impacting you and how
you're actually experiencing this man, he will not know for
the reasons that Cam disarticulated.
And that's what's so sad is you have a lot of really good woman
(13:50):
and good men who are missing each other like 2 ships in the
night because both sides are doing their best.
The woman thinks she's communicating her needs, but
she's not really communicating the deepest need because that
requires vulnerability. And that requires putting
yourself out there and saying, hey, I'm drowning here and I'm
(14:11):
going to need something to change.
Are you willing to to change your behavior or help me here?
And, and I'm saying this in a concise way, but I would
recommend women say that differently.
And then the man actually has anopportunity to respond knowing
that there's a check engine light on.
But if that does not happen in aconducive way, it leads to the
(14:32):
surprise divorce that the man didn't see coming.
Yeah, and it's all about the level of space that each person
has. Yeah.
And I mean, humans have really had it rough the past few
thousand years, even with the past like 50 years, it's been
pretty freaking rough. And you know, I, I try them this
(14:53):
very lightly, But you know, a huge part of the women's
empowerment movement have been because there was a necessary,
there was a necessary need for women to work to make enough
money to also help support the family.
So yes, they're finally able to do the jobs that men have always
done, but also often times it wasn't coming from a place of
(15:15):
wanting to. Is it coming from a place of
needing to and they're finally allowed to do the thing that
they needed to do to help their family survive.
There's many factors in place for that and including like
especially inflation being a huge part of it because now both
parents needed to bring home thefood and shelter for them to be
able to make it. But thankfully that was, I guess
(15:37):
the more darker side of it. But thankfully recently as women
have gotten so much more spending power and so much more
education, often times it has allowed for them to reach a
certain level where they have the space.
Now that everything's OK, they're kind of out of survival
mode of make sure the rent is paid and all those other things.
They've had this space to realize the nuances of life.
(16:00):
And sadly, I think this has happened since dawn of time,
whether it's women nowadays who have transcended a lot of the
survival things that we still need in in this modern economy.
And also this is very similar traits that a lot of women had
back in the day when they were just housewives.
They didn't have to work, you know, they had their own jobs at
home of the kids and everything going on there.
(16:20):
Both of them were able to have the space enough to care about
the nuances of their life where for men, and this is still the
case, even though there there has been massive strides of this
getting better, it still isn't where it needs to be.
Men are still in the spot we just talked about.
The light switch is like a man wakes up is like my life is
(16:44):
making sure these people are fedand have shelter.
So my life is I got to get up and go to freaking work.
I don't care how hard it is. I don't.
I don't care if they send me offto war.
I don't care if I have to work 12/16 hour days construction and
freezing cold weather. I I don't care what it looks
like, how boring it is, how lifeless it is, how against my
(17:06):
passion is. Whatever, whatever I have to
sacrifice my hobbies, my creativity's, other things I'm
going to do because these peoplethat I deeply love need to be
taken care of. So when that sacrifice is made,
even when they come home that day from work, they are still
thinking about how that day went.
(17:28):
What are the chances of them getting fired?
What other things did they have put on their plate that day that
actually isn't even in their jobdescription, but they must do to
appease a certain person or to make the certain goal happen to
allow the stability of making sure everyone he loves is is fed
(17:49):
and has shelter. There's so many things going on
when it comes to work when it comes to nowadays being
infiltrated with a million different things of making sure
the food isn't poisoned, making sure like the the right
politicians in office, I got to vote correctly the next time.
All those other things that theythink about in their head, they
literally do not have the space to recognize that they're
falling short on the household tasks like taking out the trash
(18:13):
or whatever it may be. Now a woman in this case, often
times and this this could work for a man and man relationship,
a woman and woman relationship. This is just in general.
It was often times any relationship someone who has
more space than the others and and woman for the historically
has always had more space than men.
And so that's why women would say things like, well, they
(18:35):
should just know. They should just see and then be
able to do it. It's.
Just obvious. It's just obvious.
Well, it's obvious to someone with space.
It is not obvious to someone that does not yet have the
space. And there's many factors in
place of why someone may not have the space.
Like I said, there's there is the the immense amount of
distractions and obligations andresponsibilities that are far
(18:59):
outside what should be in place.Often times the societal factors
in place that lead to this huge weight, especially on men's
shoulders that stop them from seeing the obvious.
And so when what whoever it is in this case with a woman or
man, but let's say woman has more space in relationship,
she's going to see things that the man, the man simply cannot
(19:22):
focus on. And even when brought to his
intention, attention, when he has the equation of his life of
what really matters in all this is making sure I bring home
enough money to make sure they are OK.
The little subtle things don't seem important to him.
So like if if you were to come to, let's say I was which I'm
(19:45):
more and more every someday deepon my purpose and and and caring
about a lot of macro things in terms of our life.
It would take me living a life where I create a lot of space to
actively care about a random conversation out of the friend
that day or like what dress you're going to wear that night.
(20:06):
And I can generally be fully focused and be like, Oh yeah, I
think the blue looks better thanthe black.
Like it, it takes a lot of. Presence in space that most
people don't have to care about those details fully.
It's like their mind and being is in a different place.
So that has been I think the fall of some relationships
because there is a dissonance inhow much space is available
(20:27):
which leads to a different life problems and it's hard for
someone to solve a more nuanced life problem when they're at a
lower state just trying to get the survival needs met for
oftentimes everyone. And again, there's a lot of the
stuff that keeps them down there, like suppressed angers
and then, you know, relationships with certain
people that that 'cause these things to happen and it is their
responsibility to learn that. But also giving people grace
(20:49):
that the world has conspired against them, not looking at
those things. And I've actually taught them
the worst things possible that would not that would not allow
them to heal and have the space of that nuance.
There's so much in this equationthat that's causing the
dissonance. And just like you're saying
though, but like there reach a certain point where yeah,
(21:09):
there's a distance there, but this is a relationship trying to
make work and if one person has needs not being met, something
must be done about that, right? So.
Yeah, and and I think grounding this in a recent pop culture
example immediately came to mindis Love is Blind Sparkle, Megan
Jordan, textbook definition of this.
(21:30):
If you didn't watch the season, it it was a really good one.
A lot of a really classic relationship dynamics from like
what happens when a man doesn't find a woman attractive, but
then pretends that he does. You know, with the the you know
what I'm talking about Joe and the girl.
So from all those to this one, I'm going to bring this one to
life because what Cam just said I think is so true, but it's
(21:52):
hard to visualize. So if you want to understand
this on a deeper level, I recommend watching the season of
love is blind and paying attention to Jordan and sparkle
Mag. What was happening here?
Jordan is a single dad. He has a young son who's five
years old. He also has type 1 diabetes and
so he works a full time job as like a factory manager of some
(22:14):
kind. So it's a very physical job.
He's in and out of like desks and and desk work and moving.
He manages a huge team managing factory like machinery and
appliances to my understanding. And so when he went to love his
blind, how the experiment works is it's all in these pods where
you're sitting there and you're going in and out of
(22:36):
conversations with a wall, basically like you're, you're
just hearing someone's voice. And in that scenario, Jordan had
space. He had way more space.
He had nothing but space becauseall his focus was on was going
into these pods and having conversations for hours at a
(22:57):
time. So he had an abundance of what
Cam was talking about with like,wow, my binary goal right now is
to be in this conversation and to be myself and to just see
what happens. Now when he ended up proposing
to Sparkle Meg, they go back to their home environment and what
happens? He doesn't have space anymore.
(23:19):
He's now back to work. He's taking care of his son who
has diabetes. And what happened in this one
scene when they were in the closet was she's like, you're a
different person than you were two weeks ago.
Like, you don't want to talk to me anymore.
You don't want to spend time with me anymore.
You don't ask me any questions about myself.
(23:42):
You're not curious about my life.
You can't come to my plans playing tennis with my friends
at 2:00 PM. Like, you're different.
It's like he's not different. He just doesn't have the space.
He's now in an environment whereall the things Cam just said are
now his number one priority. He's a provider.
He takes care of his son. He goes to work.
(24:02):
And then when he gets home, he got quiet because he's, like Cam
said, processing all the different elements of that day,
all the stressors from work, allthe office politics.
Oh, you know, is Luca? Does he have practice tomorrow?
What do I need to, like, set aside on his bed for what he has
to wear? All these little things are now
dominating his mind in his space.
(24:25):
And there was none left for her.And he probably thought he was
doing his absolute best. He probably thought the fact
that I'm present with you shouldbe enough.
The fact that I'm spending time with you, even if my mind is
elsewhere, should be enough. That's how someone who doesn't
have space perceives what's going on.
Physical presence should be enough.
(24:47):
I'm breaking my back to be physically here with you.
That's not what the woman wants,though.
She wants more than physical presence.
She wants a man who's not only physically there, but
emotionally present, curious, having this space to ask
questions. But that's not the reality for
most men, and that is where the breakdown starts to happen.
(25:08):
So I thought that was a phenomenal example because you
literally saw this happen in real time, and I don't think
people really understood what was going on there.
But it was the space issue. You go from a big old field of
space to a narrow hallway of space, and that's what makes
relationships breakdown. It's all about the space.
It's a perfect example because Jordan, just like most people,
(25:29):
but especially men in this case scenario, all he really cares
about is making sure goes to work, gets paid because now he
has a kid to, well, he's had a kid the past five years who take
care of who has diabetes. So he needs to make sure that
kid is just like every other kid, fed, taken to school, has
the right clothes, you know, hasenough money to get the right
Christmas gift, whatever it may be, but also diabetes medication
(25:51):
to make sure his hospital visitsare in are, you know, good to
go. All that.
That's a lot going on. And if you're managing people at
work often times and you're on your feet for let's say 8/10/12
hours a day, you just need to gohome and just process and rest.
That's not really cut out in thenormal work day.
And So what he probably wants ina partner right now, if he wants
to continue to do that lifestyleis someone who when he goes
(26:13):
home, they just kind of chill and they probably would just
watch, watch a show, a show. And that's.
Exactly what they did. You know, they, they'll go out
date night to a nice place once every month or maybe once every
week if they're really feeling themselves like something like
that. And that's really about it.
But they take care of Luca. They take him to practice.
They take him to school. That is what he actually needed.
(26:36):
And that's what he has a space for.
Now, Sparkle Meg named Sparkle Meg because she's wearing a lot
of jewelry. She very rich on the show.
And so for someone who has, let's say, several $1,000,000 in
the bank and has a home in LA that flies to Colorado and, you
know, 10 AM on a random Tuesday is having, you know, Sangria's
(27:00):
with her, with her friends on the ski slopes.
And then, you know, let's say a few hours a week is, you know,
doing some real estate things. And then a few hours a week is
do whatever she wants to do. But she has thankfully graduated
to a place in terms of wealth where she can focus her time on
higher leverage tasks like investing, like starting a
(27:21):
business that doesn't need so much for time that she has the
space to just be and live more. So when you are in that state
and you have the space to, like we saw on the show, invest
yourself in a spirituality to, yeah, just just live life based
upon what feels aligned for you,where money isn't really the
(27:44):
problem. She didn't really have to think
about how much she spent in groceries or something like that
in comparison to Jordan. They're going to have a complete
different level of space for nuances and just overall
conversations because they have different responsibilities.
Now someone like Jordan doesn't have the understanding that, Oh
(28:05):
my gosh, the thing I'm spending all my time towards my job
mostly, maybe I don't need to dothat.
And maybe I can learn what Sparkle Meg has done and
potentially if we get married, help contribute to her lifestyle
through helping her manage real estate or start the new
business. They're actually give me more of
(28:25):
my time back and more of my space back.
So I'm more, I have more of a conducive reality to what I did
when I was in the show and really deeply connected.
But someone at that current state, someone who's middle
class literally doesn't have thespace to fathom what life can
look like and what it would taketo become an upper class person.
Therefore, they never do. And therefore, even if they have
(28:48):
the perfect opportunity put intotheir lap like he kind of did,
they'll find a way to ruin it because you're just not used to.
They don't have the space to to see how things can work.
Zoom out. Yeah.
And This is why, like, you know,people who start a business or
people start a podcast, whateverit is, it takes a certain amount
of space to do that. That people who don't have that
(29:10):
level of space literally cannot fathom what it would take to
make a podcast work or to make asuccessful business work.
But once you do have enough space, you can't imagine living
a life where you go in a place where you're only working hourly
again for someone else for 12 hours a day.
It's like the space is everything.
When there is that that distinction between two people,
(29:31):
that is where I think the far, far, far majority of
relationship problems take place.
Right. I totally agree.
Yeah, I love hearing your perspective on that and I feel
like it's a great example of what you're talking about
because even though that wasn't what we intended to talk about
today, I. Think it was perfect?
I feel like it was perfect and very needed because I don't
think I think this is really oneof those things that if
(29:53):
everybody understood this, we would have a world with a lot
much just easier communication, low conflict and real deep
understanding of everyone is doing their best.
And how do I communicate from myheart's deepest desire than what
my mind is assigning to the feeling that I'm having.
(30:15):
And Cam and I have talked about this so often recently where we
even talked about it yesterday with that thing that happened to
me on the walk in in a completely different context.
Long story short, I had this guywho was a regular on the walk
years ago and then he like reamed me one day for like an
hour and a half just like insulted me.
(30:37):
And granted, it wasn't trying tobe insulting, but he was just
like laying on all these accusations on me.
That was very unexpected. And I was asking Cam like, what
was that? And we were kind of revisiting
it, and he was seeing it from this perspective of like, he had
a feeling that he tried to put words to.
(31:00):
But when people have a feeling and they try to put words to it,
it's usually not the most accurate set of words.
It's the set of words that is least offensive to their own
ego. And it's the set of words that
often blames the other person. So instead of saying the truth
(31:21):
of the feeling, which is you shine so brightly, it makes me
feel insecure. What ends up coming out is you
think everyone's obsessed with you.
And so you see how it's like, there's a feeling that we then
assign words to, but a lot of the time it's not me focused
because it requires a lot of accountability and reflection to
(31:42):
make it me focused. It gets turned into the other
person focused. And I think that's exactly what
these fights devolve into when people have a difference in
space. It devolves into someone's
having a feeling. So the woman's having a feeling
that she's overwhelmed, that theman's dropping the ball, that
she can't rely on the man in this moment, and that their
(32:04):
relationship is suffering. But what does she say instead?
You never remember to take out the trash.
And then at that example, the man literally cannot fathom the.
Context. Where taking out the trash would
be that big of a deal. And that's where it starts.
(32:24):
Right. And so because oftentimes both
parties are unable to see the underlying emotion taking place
and what that actually means. And for the woman in this case,
it's probably like I'm not feeling fully seen.
I'm not feeling as if I'm able to get your full presence.
And also, I believe the responsibilities that we have in
(32:45):
this life, even though you're doing a fantastic and this Ave.,
there's another Ave. that I'd love for you to do better in.
I would love for you to, to, to meet me where I'm at.
And also I'd love for you to letme know if there's anything I
can do better in that way. There's like a, there's many
different ways that that conversation can be had.
That's actually the deepest truth because the whole you
(33:08):
never take out the trash. I remember, you know, just funny
because everyone just kind of like strikes up a conversation
with us. I remember getting massaged by
one woman and she told me after I, I kind of mentioned what we
did. She was like, yeah, I've been
with my husband for 40 years. We don't really talk that much
anymore. You know, he just, he never puts
the shoes back, You know, where where we have it organized in
(33:30):
the, in the shoe rack, in the garage.
He never does this, never does that.
Just talk about the smallest things.
And, you know, in my head, I'm like, it's not actually about
that. Like, who gives a shit?
If he was perfect in all different ways, you wouldn't
care about the shoes. It's about something deeper.
And so this is where the distance come in because there's
a space differentiator and then that is leading to what feels as
(33:55):
if along with people unable to understand, they're not able to
speak the exact truth that is leading to a formula for
failure. That's so true and I'm so glad
we talked about it. Yeah, yeah.
I feel like we didn't go as deepon the weight thing as I was
anticipating, but that's all right.
(34:16):
Maybe that means that when you talk about that another time.
But I think this is an absolute phenomenal conversation, my
love. And thank you for, as always,
bringing so much heart and presence and phenomenal ideas to
the conversation. You are a literal king and I
love you. I love you.
Thank you for being here with me.
(34:36):
I love you, sweetie. I love you.
Hope you all enjoyed. We are so happy to be back,
back, back on these beautiful couches and we are very much
hoping to be more consistent. We're kind of implementing some
strategies right now to like wake up and record every day.
Now, I don't think that they'll be going on this channel.
I could be wrong, but they'll begoing on our personal channels
(34:59):
just kind of popping on and talking about whatever is live
for us. So this episode is our our
return to the good news. So we hope you enjoyed it.
If anything stood out to you, please feel free to leave a
comment or if you have any questions or anything that you
really, really, really want to dive into deeper, please let us
(35:21):
know because that gives us some inspiration.
We love talking about all thingsnow, just not in the love and
relationship category alone. But you know, we always love
talking about that. So it always kind of turns back
to that road. But the one last thing we want
to mention is that we would lovefor you to leave reviews.
And if you take screenshots of your reviews, the five star
(35:44):
reviews across platforms and e-mail them, you'll see it in
the description. You'll get a fun little surprise
prize. Oh, from Cami and I and we're
just very grateful. We really want this show to
reach more people. It also motivates us to sit and
record more consistently. And we have a lot of followers
of this show, but like 16 reviews on Spotify, and we
(36:06):
really want to up that number. So thank you guys for being
here. If you got any value, that would
be such a gift in a reciprocal exchange to leave a review if
you enjoy our conversations. So thank you guys so much.
We're so grateful. We love you.
Bye.
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