September 16, 2024 • 33 mins
Ever wondered what it's like to live a double life, constantly teetering on the edge of danger? Join us as we step into the shoes of undercover officers who navigate this treacherous path daily. This special compilation episode of Behind the Thin Blue Line Podcast brings you firsthand accounts from the frontlines, featuring gripping stories that have defined the careers of our brave guests. From Tommy's high-stakes infiltration of a massive drug operation to emotional encounters with the devastating effects of heroin addiction, this episode pulls back the curtain on the unseen struggles and triumphs of undercover policing.
We'll take you through the intense planning and daring maneuvers that go into every undercover mission. Hear about the nerve-wracking moments and quick thinking that saved lives during a fentanyl bust gone wrong, and the unexpected twists when a simple undercover operation revealed a fugitive murderer. These stories aren't just about the adrenaline and danger; they are vivid reminders of the profound emotional and psychological toll that comes with maintaining a hardened persona amidst chaos. Through each narrative, we explore the deep-seated guilt, ethical dilemmas, and the relentless pursuit of justice that define this line of work.
To round off the episode, we delve into the personal transformations and long-term effects on those who have served undercover. Discover how realistic props and backstories can be the difference between life and death, and hear the sobering account of battling PTSD long after leaving the force. Through these tales, we hope to provide a deeper appreciation of the sacrifices made by these unsung heroes and the lasting impact on their lives and families. This episode is a tribute to their courage, resilience, and the rare moments of joy that punctuate their challenging journey.
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If you would like to be involved in a "Whisper In The Shadows" Podcast through talking about your experiences as an current or former Police/Law Enforcement Officer or tell your stories then I'd love to hear from you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line Podcast.
I'm your host, jason Somerville, and this is my passion project
Now.
Being an ex-copper, one of thethings you take away with you
from the job is the ability totell a good war story, generally
embellished by the time it getsto 20 plus years after the fact
, but still generally a bloodygood yarn that you always get
asked to tell at parties orbarbecues, sometimes even out
(00:40):
drinking.
Every copper has a couple ofthem and they usually have their
preferred go-to that everyonehas heard but still love
listening to.
Now I've decided to do a bestof episode this week of the war
stories from the first sixepisodes.
Now, if you've been listening,you'll know that there have been
13 parts or mini episodes, andthere's been over eight hours of
(01:01):
conversation with current andformer police officers.
There are definitely some goodstories in there.
Whilst I usually want toshowcase things like the impact
of policing has had on peoplewho do it, their struggles and
how they've overcome them, andeven PTSD, in this episode I
(01:22):
want to focus on the enthusiasmand even joy that each of the
people telling the stories haswhen they tell it.
Now, why is this important, Ihear you ask.
Well, despite all the shitpolicing takes you through,
there are rare glimpses of pureenjoyment, enthusiasm that each
person who has done the job hasfor policing, and that shows
when they tell these stories.
All right, so first up, we'llgo all the way back to episode
(01:43):
one, where I spoke to who is acurrent UC working in a North
American police force.
For obvious reasons hisconversation wasn't recorded on
video, but still the stories hewill tell will amaze you.
We'll start our look back withhim talking about how his wife
loves to tell his stories,because he hates to, and then
(02:03):
we'll listen to the time hebought eight kilos of meth.
Take it away, tommy.
Your wife must be veryunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, she, she is totally with me and she doesn't
ask a lot of questions becauseshe doesn't want the answers.
Um, I mean, she likes hearingthe cool stories.
But, um, and she'll, I'll tellher what happened at work and
then she'll relay it.
We'll go to people that wereclose friends and then she'll
tell the story for me, because Ihate telling it.
My daughter, she's 13 and shenever knew I was a cop until
(02:35):
last year.
Righto, yeah, so she for allthese years.
And then I went back to GeneralPatrol and she's swimming in
uniform and she's like, oh,you're a cop, yeah.
And then I went back to GeneralPatrol and she's swimming in
uniform and she's like, oh,you're a cop.
I was like, yeah, what did youthink it was?
Oh, I thought you were afirefighter.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Fair enough.
I was going to say that musthave been fun when they had take
your father to school days andthings like that.
Yeah, I was never invited.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I was talking about my father's career.
I was never invited to those.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Because you were the drug dealer.
Yeah, all right, look, let'sget on to, I guess, some stories
about what you've done.
I guess, similarly, you've hadto listen to some of the
episodes I've done in relationto this.
So some of the things thatyou've done that you think
people listening might beinterested in, you know, just
(03:26):
telling those stories that youobviously hate, telling that
your wife does loves.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, Just kind of a brief of everything.
I mean I've purchased anythingfrom, like you know, 0.1 of a
gram of, you know, cocaine,fentanyl, all the way up to
eight kilos.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
How does that work and how long the eight kilos
talking by, how long does ittake to plan that?
How long does it take to get toan eight kilo buy and how does
that work?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Well, I mean, this is not an anomaly for the UC world
Like this file I was a part ofwas a part of a homicide I think
it was a double homicide filerelated to a group that eats
tacos and lights Corona, okaythat kind of started involved in
those and then we had anoperator the one operator come
(04:16):
in and try and purchase drugs inthis group and that happened to
be me and I kind of started offsmall and before I know it the
file just got bigger and biggerand they're utilising more of it
.
I think I did like 10 meetswith this person and on the 10th
meet he was able to sell me 8kilograms of meth.
(04:38):
At the time and I hadn't evenexchanged money or anything
until he got busteded and tookdown.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
How does that work?
The take-down, if you can give,I guess, a little bit of
insight into you?
Know, you see it on the TV,where you know the undercover is
bundled up and taken away andsat in the car and then
complaining about the fact that,hey, I haven't done this, or I
haven't done that, or I need todo that and it's all.
No, it's all for your safety.
Um, we had one undercover boywith me where I was locked up.
(05:12):
Um, how does that work atsomething at that height, at
that level, rather, with thatsize drug?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
um, with that one it was uh like our kind of SWAT
team.
That was kind of like a big,big big file.
I mean they took him downpretty hard.
They took him down when Iwasn't there, okay, just because
of the fact that he was armed,yeah, and there was a big
consent for them.
A lot of things behind thescenes that I wasn't made aware
(05:42):
of, do you think that's a goodthing or a bad thing?
You weren't aware of them.
I mean, I always like to know.
I always assumed everyone'sarmed anyway.
So I mean, to me it would havebeen the same as if I had known
or not known.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
carry when you work About 95% of the time.
Okay, yeah, just for the factwhere I'm at and the danger that
we kind of face.
And there's been a fewinstances where it was very
fortunate that I wasn't at thetime, but there's been times
where I wish I had have been.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
The question that always comes up when you're a
cop, or the kids always ask you,or idiots always ask you have
you ever shot someone?
I'm not going to ask you ifyou've ever shot someone, but
have you ever been in asituation where, having your
firearm with you workingundercover, you've technically
had to use it to make sure thatthe threat of you using it was
seen as real?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
There's probably about three times where I
probably would have used it if Ihad it.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Can you elaborate on any of those?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
yeah, so the first one was actually weird because
when I my, when I was doing myundercover training, uh, my
first drug buy was I just boughtlike a dime bag or weed or
whatever from this guy.
Uh, yep, fast forward about ayear later, the same guy I was
buying crack from and, um, heobviously hadn't been busted in
(07:05):
between.
No, it was kind of like atraining thing, so he was let go
.
Okay, so for the year I wasbuying crack, Small amount like
$20, $40 worth of crack.
It was just taking too long forhis guy to turn up and he wanted
to chip off my crack as kind ofa fee to bring in his dealer.
(07:26):
Yeah, and it got to the pointwhere it's just taking too long
and I got the signals going yeah, end it.
So I tried to end it and he washaving none and basically went
from no, you rip me off, I'vedone all this work for you.
And then, yeah, then he triedto stab me over 40 bucks,
(07:46):
basically, gave me money, get mycell phone and see you later,
I'm out of here.
And then, yeah, he was swingingfor Did he get picked up
relatively soon?
after that, yeah, my coveredteam kind of intervened, kind of
not identified himself as apolice, but kind of intervened
so that I could get away.
And then you know, 20, 30minutes later then General
(08:09):
Patrol picked him up andarrested him for robbery and we
got the money and the cell phoneback.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
How long were you a police officer before you went
into the covert work?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
I volunteered for it and I started it two months
before I turned 22.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Okay so five years.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
No, I was sworn in at 19, so almost three.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, why did you want to do covert work?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
There were people dying in droves of heroin
overdoses in the late 70s andearly 80s.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Right up to the late 80s I think.
But heroin was being brought inthrough pretty unprotected
borders.
So you talk about corruption, acombination of corrupt customs
officials, unprotected borders,corrupt police all through the
country and the heroin trade wasout of control.
(09:08):
It was really down to a guycalled Terence John Clark Clark
with an E.
He was a New Zealander who ran?
a major international drugsyndicate.
So the quality of heroin thatwas coming from the Golden
Triangle was killing peopleevery day.
Yeah, I don't use the termjunkies, I use the term addicts.
(09:29):
You know, I've seenhigh-functioning addicts in
every walk of life, but theseyoung people predominantly young
people and they were middleclass.
So heroin use wasn't alower-class drug, it was a
middle-class drug.
We were finding bodies intoilet cubicles, sometimes on
the street, et cetera, in housesand just horrible.
(09:50):
So I was fairly idealistic andnaive and I thought working
undercover would be a good wayto do something concrete about
the drug trade.
And essentially, you know, atthat age you think you can
change the world and that's whatI tried to do.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Fair enough.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
I didn't realise how much it had changed me.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
What was the most difficult thing of working
undercover for you?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I, in spite of my upbringing, I was actually a
nice, nice guy.
I was empathetic, I cared aboutpeople.
I was actually a nice guy.
I was empathetic, I cared aboutpeople, I was polite.
If I had to react on the streetand take someone down in a
violent blitz, absolutely Iwould, but the core of me, I was
just a very nice guy.
So one of the hardest thingswas changing that personality
(10:41):
and adopting the personality ofa mid-level dealer.
And so I portrayed myself as amid-level dealer.
And so I portrayed myself as amid-level heroin dealer, and
mid-level heroin dealers don'thave the manners and the
niceness that I'd had normally,so I had to learn and adapt and
adopt the mannerisms of others.
(11:03):
I had to speak in a certain waythat wasn't the norm for me.
I had to treat women like crap.
I had to assert a position,even at the age of 22, that I
was a shaker and a mover, Isuppose in the drug scene.
It's all that stuff.
(11:23):
One of the hardest things thatI ever did was watch a
14-year-old kid be shot up withhis first hit of heroin.
I thought he was about 17 or 18, but I still couldn't have
interfered anyway.
And I found out later, aboutfour years later he died of a
heroin overdose and I carriedthat guilt for quite some time
(11:43):
and probably still do.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
How do you address that guilt?
It's never going to go away,okay, but how did you address
that guilt?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Well, when I had my breakdown, I suppose a lot of
things had compounded on me.
That was one memory that cameback.
I suppose a lot of things hadcompounded on me.
That was one memory that cameback.
And I've just understoodthrough research and
self-awareness and therapy thatyou can't change what's happened
in the past.
You just need to, as best youcan, accept it, understand it
(12:18):
and move through it.
And that sounds simplistic andit's a lot more detailed than
that.
But you know, know, I just lookback on it and think, well,
what else could I have done fouryears?
When I think about that, Iwould think about I should have,
could have, would have.
But it's over and done.
You know, it's just been a animpact on my life.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That's um one of many trauma and I guess look may,
partly because I've been there.
But the first question thatcomes to mind is if you'd
intervened, then put a wouldashoulda, does that necessarily
mean one a week later?
He wasn't going to take a hitsome other way.
(12:58):
Two what would the outcome havebeen for you, even though the
action was noble, so to speak?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Well, I was in the middle of a heroin operation and
I'd been in this particularregion for about three months.
The operation went for six andI was working by myself.
There was no backup, so I don'tknow what it was like in your
time, but in my time you workedone out and that was it.
There were no mobile phones,there were no pages, I didn't
(13:31):
wear listening devices veryoften at all and I was in a
house where no one knew where Iwas.
So had I intervened, it wouldhave been completely out of
character.
As I said, I thought he wasabout 17 or 18.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
It would have been completely out of character.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
As I said, I thought he was about 17 or 18.
Yeah, would have beencompletely out of character for
a heroin dealer who was buyinghigh-quality heroin in that area
.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So it was on the Gold Coast Would have been
completely sus for me to go.
Hey, what do you think you'redoing?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Because my assumed identity, I was dealing, I was
making a lot of money out of it,so could have resulted in some
physical danger to me you know,because of my SWAT background
and the extension training wehad, and it sounds mean, or it
sounds bravado or sounds callous, I guess, but every deal I went
(14:19):
into I had a plan to kill theguy if it went bad.
Okay and it's just silly, butand and I had, I believe I had
the means to do it and I, so Ididn't worry about that part of
it.
I worried about was he going tocall my bluff and then, you
know, say hey, you're a cop, andwalk out the door, or you know
whatever.
And then I would just be I'd bea failure at not getting the
(14:41):
deal.
I really didn't have a wholelot of apprehension of doing the
deal.
My first undercover deal wasyou know, I wasn't.
I wasn't there yet, but that wasquite a scary deal, to be
brutally honest.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
What happened?
Speaker 4 (14:55):
there, you know.
So I had no training.
I went to a two-week basicnarcotics school.
When I was still in the gangunit, because in the gang unit
we did so much drug work.
But when I got to narcoticsthere wasn't any type of
undercover school to go to, or Ihadn't seen one yet, and I was
just, you know, telling all mycrewmates, hey, I want to do an
(15:16):
undercover deal.
And so, lo and behold, mylongtime partner and friend Edie
.
She had an informant, a Mexicanguy who didn't speak English,
and he wanted to sell guns.
I'm like, well, I'll buy guns.
So I go do this gun deal with aguy named Jesus.
I figured.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I was safe.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
You know the Hispanic version of Jesus, I figured I
was going to be good to go.
He did die on a cross.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Yes, correct, so he didn't speak English.
I spoke very little Spanish andthe Spanish I spoke was to tell
someone how to get on theground and put your hands on
your back, which wasn't going tohelp me in a dope deal the
informant sat in the back seatof my car, a little two door
blazer.
And anyways, we pull up and hegets in the car and this is a
(16:07):
tiny little car to our.
If it was two big guys like me,our shoulders would almost be
touching in the front seats.
And as soon as he got in he is.
He's beating sweat, he isnervous as he could possibly be
and he keeps looking out thepassenger window like the raid
team's coming.
And I'm trying to tell him hey,listen, calm down.
You know tranquilo.
And the informant is tellinghim to calm down.
(16:28):
Female informant.
And so he hands me the gun andit's just a shitty gun, which
isn't the crazy part.
The crazy part was, as soon ashe handed me the gun, he put his
right hand back in under hiscoat.
He had his hand on a shoulder.
He had a shoulder rig.
And I've held a gun a milliontimes and I know what it's like
to have a shoulder rig.
(16:48):
I know what it's like where thegun is and how you hold it and
how it fills your hand and hehad his right hand on a pistol
the whole time and I'm to hisleft.
Well, my left hand is down by myleft thigh, which is on my
Glock 30.
And so here it is, that momentfrom Good, bad and the Ugly,
with the music playing, who'sgoing to move first?
And he keeps looking out thewindow like the raid team is
(17:12):
coming and it's like calm downon.
The gun was a piece of crap,like I said.
And um, so the informer's likewell, hey, paul's looking for
dope too.
You know he needs a new plugfor meth and he was kind of
nervous about that.
He sold me a gun.
I don't know why he'd benervous about meth, but so with
it with his left.
He never took his right handout of his coat.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
With his left hand.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
He gives me, you know , a couple of grams of dope.
I keep my left hand where it'sat and with my right hand I take
the gun, I take the dope and Ipay him.
And it was this, this weirdballet of he's only using his
left hand, I'm only using myright hand.
Our other hands were on ourguns.
And he keeps looking out thewindow like the raid team's
(17:57):
coming and I'm thinking, youknow, if he pulls the gun out,
I'm just going to smash him withmy right arm lean into him and
then shoot him with my left hand.
Um, and it just was one of thoseman it was.
It was 10 minutes of tension.
I don't know why it even tookthat long, but it took about 10
minutes.
Um, he's then.
(18:20):
He's trying to get me to use itto try the dope.
You know that one's easy to getout of.
And I got out of it, um, and hebelieved me and, uh, so no big
deal, he, the deal is fine over,he leaves and again, so that's
not that hair, you know thatcrazy right.
But a week later he asked me tobuy another gun from him.
And I'm like, hell, yeah, I'min, I love this, I want to buy
(18:42):
guns and dope.
And she says, well, paul, I'mnot okay, what's, what's the?
What's the scoop?
She's like well, we got someinformation on Jesus that we
didn't know last week.
Like, what's that?
Well, he killed two people, um,in a cartel hit about three,
four weeks ago, um, and so weknow he's a murderer.
(19:03):
We're not sure if homicide isgoing to be able to pin the case
on him.
So we want to continue to buydope and guns off him to give
him the best sentence we can getif we can't prove these murders
.
So I said, OK, that's cool, atleast I know who he is now.
And I bought dope and guns fromhim a couple more times and
(19:25):
they were successful.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Do you have a war story?
People love war stories andsome people like telling them,
some people don't.
People love war stories andsome people like telling them,
some people don't.
Do you have a story that youcan sort of talk us through?
Something, a buy that you didthat stands out to you, that you
remember to this day, that youeither go how did I get through
that?
Or why?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
did that happen?
Oh, many of them.
Look, there was a job I did inNorth Queensland, this time with
a colleague, and I went upthere as the controller.
He was undercover for five yearshe was did in North Queensland,
this time with a colleague, andI went up there as the
controller because he'd beenundercover for five years.
He was burnt out at Bourbon andI was supposed to be the
controller.
I ended up moving in the sameunit and just worked with him as
a side-by-side UC.
We had a list of targets thatwe'd worked on, we'd bought from
(20:03):
you know.
So it was again a deep operation, but we came across this guy
who told us that he told us acertain name which turned out
not to be his name.
Okay, I told him our names andturned out not to be ours and we
got on quite well and he was anex gypsy.
Joker biker didn't know muchelse about his background and
(20:28):
and we were buying a lot ofdrugs from him.
We were setting up a majormajor, probably about 200 grand
in those days in the 80s it wasa lot of money and it was going
to take place in Kuranda, northof Cairns in the rainforest.
so all organised and did the joband a couple of things happened
and I've written about it inthe book as well.
(20:49):
I was recognised by someone I'dgone to school with when I was
with him and I tapped hands myway out of that.
But I remember he looked at mewith his evil eyes and I thought
oof, you know Jesus.
Anyway, end of the job happens.
The boy didn't go ahead for acouple of reasons, but when he
was arrested he told theinvestigating detectives that
(21:10):
well, you got me.
I'm an escapee from Yatla prisonin Adelaide.
He'd murdered two guys in theNorthern Territory, cut them up
with a knife for a while, thenturned them face down and shot
them in the back of the head.
I think he thought they had alot of gold with them and they
didn't, because they wereprospectors.
Anyway, he'd been sentenced.
(21:30):
He gleefully escaped from Yatlaand he'd been on the run for
quite some time and he told themthat he'd intended to kill me
for the buy money.
And the detective told me thatand I went.
Well, that's disappointingbecause I thought we were mates.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And we actually got on very well.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
We used to get out and drink and you know, and have
an entertaining time together.
And the irony is all the time Iwas planning to betray him and
have him sent to jail.
He was planning to betray meand kill me and we both gave
each other false names.
Yeah, that's one of the mostironic ones I've got.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, no that's.
I think it's a little bit morethan ironic.
But it's interesting too thatCairns seems to be the place
that most pardon theparaphrasing here dead shit end
up at the end of the line.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yeah, north of Cairns , made up in Cape Troubadour,
it's still a good place to hide.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yep, most definitely.
What's the most dangerous oneyou've done?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
It was only maybe two years, I don't know.
It was about 2020.
I got into a car with afentanyl dealer First time.
It was just a random.
Is fentanyl a big drug?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's reallybig over here and I'm sure it's
going to be hitting AustraliaIf not already, I'm sure it has.
(22:54):
But it's not good, it's a badone.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Okay, so you're hitting up a fentanyl dealer.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, so yeah, this is one of the times where I'm
not armed.
It feels like I was wearinglike a wine shirt and slippers
and I had no wearer.
Oh, miami Vice style, yeah,totally yeah.
And slippers, and, and I hadnowhere actually.
Oh, miami vice style, yeah,totally yeah.
So we end up, yeah, we just,you know, I think it was like
maybe the, maybe the third buyof the day of different people
and pretty relaxed, and justjump in and then, uh, in a
(23:27):
minipassional seat with him,I've got my cover team, that's
all pretty close.
And then I started goingthrough the motions.
The next minute he pulls out abig Beretta, 9mm, sticks it into
my face and he was only a youngguy, I mean, I think I'm quite
large, so I think I kind ofintimidated him and he wanted to
(23:48):
be the alpha male and that washis way of showing me that he
was the top dog.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
What do you do in that situation?
Because you're obviously awareof why he's doing it.
Most drug dealers would be ohokay, I've got to show myself
now and assert my dominancebecause I'm the drug dealer type
thing.
How do you deal with that?
Because part of you will beshit.
What's going to happen?
The other part will be do Ihave to assert myself and where
(24:17):
is that going to get me?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
yeah, I mean that's the thing you're going to kind
of.
That's where it comes totraining and uh, um, stuff.
You've learned beforehand, likeI've done a lot of courses
where um kind of undercoveroperator, like kind of picks,
fighting in vehicles, shootingfrom, in vehicles, shooting
outside of vehicles, uh, youknow, knowing where the door
(24:40):
handle is, how to get out quick,where to put your feet so you
can fight little, not put theseatbelt on, make sure the
door's unlocked or not fullyshut.
There's like a bunch of thingsthat you just do automatically.
And um, I think when he didthat, I was kind, kind of I
didn't, you know, try to run outor anything like that.
I kind of just wanted to talkmy way through it.
(25:01):
And I was like you know, man, Ihad a cool gun, why are you
bringing that gun to a drug deal?
And kind of took my way out ofit a little bit.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Was part of that, say , your team knew that that was
happening as well.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Exactly Like I wanted to make sure they're aware and
in the background they're doingtheir things to you know,
weren't to intervene if it wentthat way, because, at the end of
the day, if I had a turn andtry to run, you could have shot
in the back just as easy.
Yeah, I mean, reaction wouldhave been not even close to him
being able to shoot me.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
So you've tried to talk him down, and obviously you
have, because you were heretalking to me.
Did you have to become thealpha, or was it like?
No, I'm going to let you be thealpha dog?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, I was going to let him.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, man, you're in charge.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
This is your show.
I'm just here to buy a bit ofdope.
And then I kind of just, youknow, kind of let my team know,
hey, there's a gun in play.
Yep, you know kind ofcommunicate to them that and
then try to calm him down.
He's in charge, he's a cool guy.
I'm just, you know, the drugaddict that's buying 100 bucks
(26:15):
worth of fentanyl for a minute,and I kind of made it like, yeah
, cool guy, oh, anyway, here'smy 100 bucks, Kind of like did
that, you know, fell in down alittle bit.
I'm just here to buy a bit offentanyl.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
And did he settle down what was his reaction?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, you know he's like, yeah, cool.
And he reaction yeah, you know,cool.
Then he puts a gun between hislegs and then pieces out my dope
.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
and then Did he put the gun with the butt facing
towards him or with the barrelfacing towards him?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
No, the barrel.
The barrel was the seat.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
So I mean, I think, Yep, so someone who obviously
doesn't want to have too manykids in the future.
If it was accidentally goingoff, yeah, yeah hopefully, not
Hopefully it doesn't.
Fair enough.
How long did that buy?
Take all up.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It was enough for me.
I smoked two cigarettes duringit, okay, without knowing how
quickly there was that Tenminutes, oh yeah, so I it.
Okay, without knowing howquickly there was that 10
minutes, oh yeah.
So I was pulling them prettyquick.
I actually, at the end of it, Ithink my incumbent team was
more stressed about it than Iwas- how do you debrief from
that with your team?
(27:29):
It was one of those things whereI could tell they were rattled.
They were pretty upset about itall, I think.
But know, joking and uh beingmy usual self, they're like I
could tell they 'll, theyweren't uh very happy a lot of
what I was just telling.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
You know, you gotta be, you gotta tell mostly the
truth and you have to have umyou have to have three steps
ahead of them in your planningwhen they ask you something and
you have to sell it and I don'tmean selling the fact that
you've got this long backdropstory of something that's phony,
but mostly what's true.
You know, I had a truck that Idrove that looked like it was a
(28:08):
construction truck, right, Apoor and concrete kind of truck.
That was my undercover vehiclefor a long time and I didn't
just use the truck.
I had all the equipment in thetruck and I would have bid
sheets on my dashboard and I Ihad a guy come up to my window
once who my informant was goingto nurse me to and I found out
later that he was a formerinformant for a different agency
(28:30):
and his name was Phil.
It's like, hey, what do you do,paul?
I said I'm in, I'm in concretework.
He's like bullshit, you don'tdo concrete.
And so, because I hadpre-planned Jason up on my dash
or above my visor, I pulled downa bid sheet and I handed it to
him and I wrote that bid sheetthat day, had the date on it and
the address and it was my oldaddress.
(28:51):
So I know the address and itwas my old address so I know the
address and I could describe.
I could describe the driveway Iwas going to pour and all the
dimensions and I know a littlebit about concrete.
So I had all the, had thenumbers under the measurements
and the cost and the and the,the labor hours, and I handed
him the.
I handed him the, the bid sheet, and said f you, and he looks
at it for about a minute he'slike oh, I guess you do concrete
and I'm like get out of my facepunk and I ended up buying dope
(29:15):
from him a couple days laterbecause he believed my story.
And I think that's where someguys fall short is that, you
know?
And that was me the firstcouple times that somebody asked
me what I did.
Oh, I'm a welder and I don'tknow shit about welding.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
And I could tell there were times where they
wouldn't believe me, and so likeI can't use that story anymore
because I'm not a welder, but Iknow concrete and I know some
construction, so I just I letthem know that they have to kind
of be backstopped themselves,since our department doesn't do
it.
You know, have the, have someprops to come with.
You, have some things they cansee.
I used to put pictures of meand my buddies who weren't cops
(29:54):
on the on the sun visor of mycar, or especially if they were
friends of mine that had passedaway.
Yep Cause I get, there's apicture of this guy and there's
a picture of someone else.
You know, they're wearingconstruction outfits you know,
it just sold it.
you know that this is what I do,and that's when I got better.
I you, and that's when I gotbetter.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
You know, originally it's the little details.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Yeah, I look like this big, burly biker.
I used to wear my HarleyDavidson shirts cut off and the
goatee was down to my bellybutton and I acted like a biker
and I'm not a biker and a lot ofthe deals that I had that
failed.
You know my boss would saylater like I think you scared
the crap out of that, dude youlook too mean.
He thinks you're going to beathim up or you're going to rip
(30:36):
him off.
When I finally went to thatundercover school, the guy's
like, yeah, you look too mean,dude, you're scaring people.
Change your look, you need tosmile more.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
So I went from the biker.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Look to a construction worker.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Look Instead of being the tough guy, I was just a
dude.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
You know, that was it and that's what I pass on to
these guys is you got to just bethe dude, you got to be an
everyday nobody.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Eleven years after I resigned I had a major, probably
a breakdown or very close to it, major anxiety attack, quite
crippling, and I started seeinga counsellor.
I had no idea about counsellingand that was 2006.
So you know, I went through astage of seeing counsellors
(31:24):
trying to find the right one,knowing full well that I had
issues not understanding whatthey were all of that.
So you know, off and on for thenext probably 10 years or so,
in and out of counsellingoffices, no regularity, trying
to probably fix myself, I guess,through you know, exercise and
(31:45):
as much research as I could, nothaving a great deal of success,
because I still drank way toomuch.
I was angry, I was withdrawn, Iwas all of the classic symptoms
of PTSD.
I started writing a couple ofchapters to give to my daughters
, because they were then older.
They'd grown up with me in thatwhole world of post-traumatic
(32:07):
stress disorder and it's adisorder for a reason.
It's named a disorder for areason.
If it affects your life longerthan four to six weeks, it's a
disorder.
So I wanted to write somethingto them when I was getting
better.
I have to clarify I was neverphysically violent.
I was never mentally abusive.
I was just withdrawn.
I was just, you know, had angerabout little things that would
(32:29):
flash to the surface.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I think that's the thing with PTSD that most people
will see it as outbursts ofanger that become violent,
whereas for a vast majority ofpeople that suffer with it it's
small things like snapping atthe dog or that sort of thing
which, yes, is a violentreaction, but it's seen as in
(32:53):
society, it's probably seen asokay, well, that's just an
everyday reaction and that'swhat it's put down to.
Things have just gotten toomuch on that particular day, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
There's no understanding across that a
number of these little thingsadd up to maybe something like
PTSD.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Yeah, look, and again , book number two.
I've written about how someonetold me I might have PTSD and I
didn't believe him because Ithought that was only for people
who've done really dangerousstuff and in hindsight have been
in gun battles I've lost a mate, you know all of that stuff
which is really dangerous stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
So I started writing.
I wanted to give the girlssomething to help them
understand why I had been like Ihad been for so long.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
So,
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line Podcast.
I'm your host, jason Somerville, and this is my passion project
Now.
Being an ex-copper, one of thethings you take away with you
from the job is the ability totell a good war story, generally
embellished by the time it getsto 20 plus years after the fact
, but still generally a bloodygood yarn that you always get
asked to tell at parties orbarbecues, sometimes even out
(00:40):
drinking.
Every copper has a couple ofthem and they usually have their
preferred go-to that everyonehas heard but still love
listening to.
Now I've decided to do a bestof episode this week of the war
stories from the first sixepisodes.
Now, if you've been listening,you'll know that there have been
13 parts or mini episodes, andthere's been over eight hours of
(01:01):
conversation with current andformer police officers.
There are definitely some goodstories in there.
Whilst I usually want toshowcase things like the impact
of policing has had on peoplewho do it, their struggles and
how they've overcome them, andeven PTSD, in this episode I
(01:22):
want to focus on the enthusiasmand even joy that each of the
people telling the stories haswhen they tell it.
Now, why is this important, Ihear you ask.
Well, despite all the shitpolicing takes you through,
there are rare glimpses of pureenjoyment, enthusiasm that each
person who has done the job hasfor policing, and that shows
when they tell these stories.
All right, so first up, we'llgo all the way back to episode
(01:43):
one, where I spoke to who is acurrent UC working in a North
American police force.
For obvious reasons hisconversation wasn't recorded on
video, but still the stories hewill tell will amaze you.
We'll start our look back withhim talking about how his wife
loves to tell his stories,because he hates to, and then
(02:03):
we'll listen to the time hebought eight kilos of meth.
Take it away, tommy.
Your wife must be veryunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, she, she is totally with me and she doesn't
ask a lot of questions becauseshe doesn't want the answers.
Um, I mean, she likes hearingthe cool stories.
But, um, and she'll, I'll tellher what happened at work and
then she'll relay it.
We'll go to people that wereclose friends and then she'll
tell the story for me, because Ihate telling it.
My daughter, she's 13 and shenever knew I was a cop until
(02:35):
last year.
Righto, yeah, so she for allthese years.
And then I went back to GeneralPatrol and she's swimming in
uniform and she's like, oh,you're a cop, yeah.
And then I went back to GeneralPatrol and she's swimming in
uniform and she's like, oh,you're a cop.
I was like, yeah, what did youthink it was?
Oh, I thought you were afirefighter.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Fair enough.
I was going to say that musthave been fun when they had take
your father to school days andthings like that.
Yeah, I was never invited.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I was talking about my father's career.
I was never invited to those.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Because you were the drug dealer.
Yeah, all right, look, let'sget on to, I guess, some stories
about what you've done.
I guess, similarly, you've hadto listen to some of the
episodes I've done in relationto this.
So some of the things thatyou've done that you think
people listening might beinterested in, you know, just
(03:26):
telling those stories that youobviously hate, telling that
your wife does loves.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, Just kind of a brief of everything.
I mean I've purchased anythingfrom, like you know, 0.1 of a
gram of, you know, cocaine,fentanyl, all the way up to
eight kilos.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
How does that work and how long the eight kilos
talking by, how long does ittake to plan that?
How long does it take to get toan eight kilo buy and how does
that work?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Well, I mean, this is not an anomaly for the UC world
Like this file I was a part ofwas a part of a homicide I think
it was a double homicide filerelated to a group that eats
tacos and lights Corona, okaythat kind of started involved in
those and then we had anoperator the one operator come
(04:16):
in and try and purchase drugs inthis group and that happened to
be me and I kind of started offsmall and before I know it the
file just got bigger and biggerand they're utilising more of it
.
I think I did like 10 meetswith this person and on the 10th
meet he was able to sell me 8kilograms of meth.
(04:38):
At the time and I hadn't evenexchanged money or anything
until he got busteded and tookdown.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
How does that work?
The take-down, if you can give,I guess, a little bit of
insight into you?
Know, you see it on the TV,where you know the undercover is
bundled up and taken away andsat in the car and then
complaining about the fact that,hey, I haven't done this, or I
haven't done that, or I need todo that and it's all.
No, it's all for your safety.
Um, we had one undercover boywith me where I was locked up.
(05:12):
Um, how does that work atsomething at that height, at
that level, rather, with thatsize drug?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
um, with that one it was uh like our kind of SWAT
team.
That was kind of like a big,big big file.
I mean they took him downpretty hard.
They took him down when Iwasn't there, okay, just because
of the fact that he was armed,yeah, and there was a big
consent for them.
A lot of things behind thescenes that I wasn't made aware
(05:42):
of, do you think that's a goodthing or a bad thing?
You weren't aware of them.
I mean, I always like to know.
I always assumed everyone'sarmed anyway.
So I mean, to me it would havebeen the same as if I had known
or not known.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
carry when you work About 95% of the time.
Okay, yeah, just for the factwhere I'm at and the danger that
we kind of face.
And there's been a fewinstances where it was very
fortunate that I wasn't at thetime, but there's been times
where I wish I had have been.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
The question that always comes up when you're a
cop, or the kids always ask you,or idiots always ask you have
you ever shot someone?
I'm not going to ask you ifyou've ever shot someone, but
have you ever been in asituation where, having your
firearm with you workingundercover, you've technically
had to use it to make sure thatthe threat of you using it was
seen as real?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
There's probably about three times where I
probably would have used it if Ihad it.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Can you elaborate on any of those?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
yeah, so the first one was actually weird because
when I my, when I was doing myundercover training, uh, my
first drug buy was I just boughtlike a dime bag or weed or
whatever from this guy.
Uh, yep, fast forward about ayear later, the same guy I was
buying crack from and, um, heobviously hadn't been busted in
(07:05):
between.
No, it was kind of like atraining thing, so he was let go
.
Okay, so for the year I wasbuying crack, Small amount like
$20, $40 worth of crack.
It was just taking too long forhis guy to turn up and he wanted
to chip off my crack as kind ofa fee to bring in his dealer.
(07:26):
Yeah, and it got to the pointwhere it's just taking too long
and I got the signals going yeah, end it.
So I tried to end it and he washaving none and basically went
from no, you rip me off, I'vedone all this work for you.
And then, yeah, then he triedto stab me over 40 bucks,
(07:46):
basically, gave me money, get mycell phone and see you later,
I'm out of here.
And then, yeah, he was swingingfor Did he get picked up
relatively soon?
after that, yeah, my coveredteam kind of intervened, kind of
not identified himself as apolice, but kind of intervened
so that I could get away.
And then you know, 20, 30minutes later then General
(08:09):
Patrol picked him up andarrested him for robbery and we
got the money and the cell phoneback.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
How long were you a police officer before you went
into the covert work?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
I volunteered for it and I started it two months
before I turned 22.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Okay so five years.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
No, I was sworn in at 19, so almost three.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, why did you want to do covert work?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
There were people dying in droves of heroin
overdoses in the late 70s andearly 80s.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Right up to the late 80s I think.
But heroin was being brought inthrough pretty unprotected
borders.
So you talk about corruption, acombination of corrupt customs
officials, unprotected borders,corrupt police all through the
country and the heroin trade wasout of control.
(09:08):
It was really down to a guycalled Terence John Clark Clark
with an E.
He was a New Zealander who ran?
a major international drugsyndicate.
So the quality of heroin thatwas coming from the Golden
Triangle was killing peopleevery day.
Yeah, I don't use the termjunkies, I use the term addicts.
(09:29):
You know, I've seenhigh-functioning addicts in
every walk of life, but theseyoung people predominantly young
people and they were middleclass.
So heroin use wasn't alower-class drug, it was a
middle-class drug.
We were finding bodies intoilet cubicles, sometimes on
the street, et cetera, in housesand just horrible.
(09:50):
So I was fairly idealistic andnaive and I thought working
undercover would be a good wayto do something concrete about
the drug trade.
And essentially, you know, atthat age you think you can
change the world and that's whatI tried to do.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Fair enough.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
I didn't realise how much it had changed me.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
What was the most difficult thing of working
undercover for you?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I, in spite of my upbringing, I was actually a
nice, nice guy.
I was empathetic, I cared aboutpeople.
I was actually a nice guy.
I was empathetic, I cared aboutpeople, I was polite.
If I had to react on the streetand take someone down in a
violent blitz, absolutely Iwould, but the core of me, I was
just a very nice guy.
So one of the hardest thingswas changing that personality
(10:41):
and adopting the personality ofa mid-level dealer.
And so I portrayed myself as amid-level dealer.
And so I portrayed myself as amid-level heroin dealer, and
mid-level heroin dealers don'thave the manners and the
niceness that I'd had normally,so I had to learn and adapt and
adopt the mannerisms of others.
(11:03):
I had to speak in a certain waythat wasn't the norm for me.
I had to treat women like crap.
I had to assert a position,even at the age of 22, that I
was a shaker and a mover, Isuppose in the drug scene.
It's all that stuff.
(11:23):
One of the hardest things thatI ever did was watch a
14-year-old kid be shot up withhis first hit of heroin.
I thought he was about 17 or 18, but I still couldn't have
interfered anyway.
And I found out later, aboutfour years later he died of a
heroin overdose and I carriedthat guilt for quite some time
(11:43):
and probably still do.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
How do you address that guilt?
It's never going to go away,okay, but how did you address
that guilt?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Well, when I had my breakdown, I suppose a lot of
things had compounded on me.
That was one memory that cameback.
I suppose a lot of things hadcompounded on me.
That was one memory that cameback.
And I've just understoodthrough research and
self-awareness and therapy thatyou can't change what's happened
in the past.
You just need to, as best youcan, accept it, understand it
(12:18):
and move through it.
And that sounds simplistic andit's a lot more detailed than
that.
But you know, know, I just lookback on it and think, well,
what else could I have done fouryears?
When I think about that, Iwould think about I should have,
could have, would have.
But it's over and done.
You know, it's just been a animpact on my life.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That's um one of many trauma and I guess look may,
partly because I've been there.
But the first question thatcomes to mind is if you'd
intervened, then put a wouldashoulda, does that necessarily
mean one a week later?
He wasn't going to take a hitsome other way.
(12:58):
Two what would the outcome havebeen for you, even though the
action was noble, so to speak?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Well, I was in the middle of a heroin operation and
I'd been in this particularregion for about three months.
The operation went for six andI was working by myself.
There was no backup, so I don'tknow what it was like in your
time, but in my time you workedone out and that was it.
There were no mobile phones,there were no pages, I didn't
(13:31):
wear listening devices veryoften at all and I was in a
house where no one knew where Iwas.
So had I intervened, it wouldhave been completely out of
character.
As I said, I thought he wasabout 17 or 18.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
It would have been completely out of character.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
As I said, I thought he was about 17 or 18.
Yeah, would have beencompletely out of character for
a heroin dealer who was buyinghigh-quality heroin in that area
.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So it was on the Gold Coast Would have been
completely sus for me to go.
Hey, what do you think you'redoing?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Because my assumed identity, I was dealing, I was
making a lot of money out of it,so could have resulted in some
physical danger to me you know,because of my SWAT background
and the extension training wehad, and it sounds mean, or it
sounds bravado or sounds callous, I guess, but every deal I went
(14:19):
into I had a plan to kill theguy if it went bad.
Okay and it's just silly, butand and I had, I believe I had
the means to do it and I, so Ididn't worry about that part of
it.
I worried about was he going tocall my bluff and then, you
know, say hey, you're a cop, andwalk out the door, or you know
whatever.
And then I would just be I'd bea failure at not getting the
(14:41):
deal.
I really didn't have a wholelot of apprehension of doing the
deal.
My first undercover deal wasyou know, I wasn't.
I wasn't there yet, but that wasquite a scary deal, to be
brutally honest.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
What happened?
Speaker 4 (14:55):
there, you know.
So I had no training.
I went to a two-week basicnarcotics school.
When I was still in the gangunit, because in the gang unit
we did so much drug work.
But when I got to narcoticsthere wasn't any type of
undercover school to go to, or Ihadn't seen one yet, and I was
just, you know, telling all mycrewmates, hey, I want to do an
(15:16):
undercover deal.
And so, lo and behold, mylongtime partner and friend Edie
.
She had an informant, a Mexicanguy who didn't speak English,
and he wanted to sell guns.
I'm like, well, I'll buy guns.
So I go do this gun deal with aguy named Jesus.
I figured.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I was safe.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
You know the Hispanic version of Jesus, I figured I
was going to be good to go.
He did die on a cross.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Yes, correct, so he didn't speak English.
I spoke very little Spanish andthe Spanish I spoke was to tell
someone how to get on theground and put your hands on
your back, which wasn't going tohelp me in a dope deal the
informant sat in the back seatof my car, a little two door
blazer.
And anyways, we pull up and hegets in the car and this is a
(16:07):
tiny little car to our.
If it was two big guys like me,our shoulders would almost be
touching in the front seats.
And as soon as he got in he is.
He's beating sweat, he isnervous as he could possibly be
and he keeps looking out thepassenger window like the raid
team's coming.
And I'm trying to tell him hey,listen, calm down.
You know tranquilo.
And the informant is tellinghim to calm down.
(16:28):
Female informant.
And so he hands me the gun andit's just a shitty gun, which
isn't the crazy part.
The crazy part was, as soon ashe handed me the gun, he put his
right hand back in under hiscoat.
He had his hand on a shoulder.
He had a shoulder rig.
And I've held a gun a milliontimes and I know what it's like
to have a shoulder rig.
(16:48):
I know what it's like where thegun is and how you hold it and
how it fills your hand and hehad his right hand on a pistol
the whole time and I'm to hisleft.
Well, my left hand is down by myleft thigh, which is on my
Glock 30.
And so here it is, that momentfrom Good, bad and the Ugly,
with the music playing, who'sgoing to move first?
And he keeps looking out thewindow like the raid team is
(17:12):
coming and it's like calm downon.
The gun was a piece of crap,like I said.
And um, so the informer's likewell, hey, paul's looking for
dope too.
You know he needs a new plugfor meth and he was kind of
nervous about that.
He sold me a gun.
I don't know why he'd benervous about meth, but so with
it with his left.
He never took his right handout of his coat.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
With his left hand.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
He gives me, you know , a couple of grams of dope.
I keep my left hand where it'sat and with my right hand I take
the gun, I take the dope and Ipay him.
And it was this, this weirdballet of he's only using his
left hand, I'm only using myright hand.
Our other hands were on ourguns.
And he keeps looking out thewindow like the raid team's
(17:57):
coming and I'm thinking, youknow, if he pulls the gun out,
I'm just going to smash him withmy right arm lean into him and
then shoot him with my left hand.
Um, and it just was one of thoseman it was.
It was 10 minutes of tension.
I don't know why it even tookthat long, but it took about 10
minutes.
Um, he's then.
(18:20):
He's trying to get me to use itto try the dope.
You know that one's easy to getout of.
And I got out of it, um, and hebelieved me and, uh, so no big
deal, he, the deal is fine over,he leaves and again, so that's
not that hair, you know thatcrazy right.
But a week later he asked me tobuy another gun from him.
And I'm like, hell, yeah, I'min, I love this, I want to buy
(18:42):
guns and dope.
And she says, well, paul, I'mnot okay, what's, what's the?
What's the scoop?
She's like well, we got someinformation on Jesus that we
didn't know last week.
Like, what's that?
Well, he killed two people, um,in a cartel hit about three,
four weeks ago, um, and so weknow he's a murderer.
(19:03):
We're not sure if homicide isgoing to be able to pin the case
on him.
So we want to continue to buydope and guns off him to give
him the best sentence we can getif we can't prove these murders
.
So I said, OK, that's cool, atleast I know who he is now.
And I bought dope and guns fromhim a couple more times and
(19:25):
they were successful.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Do you have a war story?
People love war stories andsome people like telling them,
some people don't.
People love war stories andsome people like telling them,
some people don't.
Do you have a story that youcan sort of talk us through?
Something, a buy that you didthat stands out to you, that you
remember to this day, that youeither go how did I get through
that?
Or why?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
did that happen?
Oh, many of them.
Look, there was a job I did inNorth Queensland, this time with
a colleague, and I went upthere as the controller.
He was undercover for five yearshe was did in North Queensland,
this time with a colleague, andI went up there as the
controller because he'd beenundercover for five years.
He was burnt out at Bourbon andI was supposed to be the
controller.
I ended up moving in the sameunit and just worked with him as
a side-by-side UC.
We had a list of targets thatwe'd worked on, we'd bought from
(20:03):
you know.
So it was again a deep operation, but we came across this guy
who told us that he told us acertain name which turned out
not to be his name.
Okay, I told him our names andturned out not to be ours and we
got on quite well and he was anex gypsy.
Joker biker didn't know muchelse about his background and
(20:28):
and we were buying a lot ofdrugs from him.
We were setting up a majormajor, probably about 200 grand
in those days in the 80s it wasa lot of money and it was going
to take place in Kuranda, northof Cairns in the rainforest.
so all organised and did the joband a couple of things happened
and I've written about it inthe book as well.
(20:49):
I was recognised by someone I'dgone to school with when I was
with him and I tapped hands myway out of that.
But I remember he looked at mewith his evil eyes and I thought
oof, you know Jesus.
Anyway, end of the job happens.
The boy didn't go ahead for acouple of reasons, but when he
was arrested he told theinvestigating detectives that
(21:10):
well, you got me.
I'm an escapee from Yatla prisonin Adelaide.
He'd murdered two guys in theNorthern Territory, cut them up
with a knife for a while, thenturned them face down and shot
them in the back of the head.
I think he thought they had alot of gold with them and they
didn't, because they wereprospectors.
Anyway, he'd been sentenced.
(21:30):
He gleefully escaped from Yatlaand he'd been on the run for
quite some time and he told themthat he'd intended to kill me
for the buy money.
And the detective told me thatand I went.
Well, that's disappointingbecause I thought we were mates.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And we actually got on very well.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
We used to get out and drink and you know, and have
an entertaining time together.
And the irony is all the time Iwas planning to betray him and
have him sent to jail.
He was planning to betray meand kill me and we both gave
each other false names.
Yeah, that's one of the mostironic ones I've got.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, no that's.
I think it's a little bit morethan ironic.
But it's interesting too thatCairns seems to be the place
that most pardon theparaphrasing here dead shit end
up at the end of the line.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yeah, north of Cairns , made up in Cape Troubadour,
it's still a good place to hide.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yep, most definitely.
What's the most dangerous oneyou've done?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
It was only maybe two years, I don't know.
It was about 2020.
I got into a car with afentanyl dealer First time.
It was just a random.
Is fentanyl a big drug?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's reallybig over here and I'm sure it's
going to be hitting AustraliaIf not already, I'm sure it has.
(22:54):
But it's not good, it's a badone.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Okay, so you're hitting up a fentanyl dealer.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, so yeah, this is one of the times where I'm
not armed.
It feels like I was wearinglike a wine shirt and slippers
and I had no wearer.
Oh, miami Vice style, yeah,totally yeah.
And slippers, and, and I hadnowhere actually.
Oh, miami vice style, yeah,totally yeah.
So we end up, yeah, we just,you know, I think it was like
maybe the, maybe the third buyof the day of different people
and pretty relaxed, and justjump in and then, uh, in a
(23:27):
minipassional seat with him,I've got my cover team, that's
all pretty close.
And then I started goingthrough the motions.
The next minute he pulls out abig Beretta, 9mm, sticks it into
my face and he was only a youngguy, I mean, I think I'm quite
large, so I think I kind ofintimidated him and he wanted to
(23:48):
be the alpha male and that washis way of showing me that he
was the top dog.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
What do you do in that situation?
Because you're obviously awareof why he's doing it.
Most drug dealers would be ohokay, I've got to show myself
now and assert my dominancebecause I'm the drug dealer type
thing.
How do you deal with that?
Because part of you will beshit.
What's going to happen?
The other part will be do Ihave to assert myself and where
(24:17):
is that going to get me?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
yeah, I mean that's the thing you're going to kind
of.
That's where it comes totraining and uh, um, stuff.
You've learned beforehand, likeI've done a lot of courses
where um kind of undercoveroperator, like kind of picks,
fighting in vehicles, shootingfrom, in vehicles, shooting
outside of vehicles, uh, youknow, knowing where the door
(24:40):
handle is, how to get out quick,where to put your feet so you
can fight little, not put theseatbelt on, make sure the
door's unlocked or not fullyshut.
There's like a bunch of thingsthat you just do automatically.
And um, I think when he didthat, I was kind, kind of I
didn't, you know, try to run outor anything like that.
I kind of just wanted to talkmy way through it.
(25:01):
And I was like you know, man, Ihad a cool gun, why are you
bringing that gun to a drug deal?
And kind of took my way out ofit a little bit.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Was part of that, say , your team knew that that was
happening as well.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Exactly Like I wanted to make sure they're aware and
in the background they're doingtheir things to you know,
weren't to intervene if it wentthat way, because, at the end of
the day, if I had a turn andtry to run, you could have shot
in the back just as easy.
Yeah, I mean, reaction wouldhave been not even close to him
being able to shoot me.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
So you've tried to talk him down, and obviously you
have, because you were heretalking to me.
Did you have to become thealpha, or was it like?
No, I'm going to let you be thealpha dog?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, I was going to let him.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, man, you're in charge.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
This is your show.
I'm just here to buy a bit ofdope.
And then I kind of just, youknow, kind of let my team know,
hey, there's a gun in play.
Yep, you know kind ofcommunicate to them that and
then try to calm him down.
He's in charge, he's a cool guy.
I'm just, you know, the drugaddict that's buying 100 bucks
(26:15):
worth of fentanyl for a minute,and I kind of made it like, yeah
, cool guy, oh, anyway, here'smy 100 bucks, Kind of like did
that, you know, fell in down alittle bit.
I'm just here to buy a bit offentanyl.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
And did he settle down what was his reaction?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, you know he's like, yeah, cool.
And he reaction yeah, you know,cool.
Then he puts a gun between hislegs and then pieces out my dope
.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
and then Did he put the gun with the butt facing
towards him or with the barrelfacing towards him?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
No, the barrel.
The barrel was the seat.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
So I mean, I think, Yep, so someone who obviously
doesn't want to have too manykids in the future.
If it was accidentally goingoff, yeah, yeah hopefully, not
Hopefully it doesn't.
Fair enough.
How long did that buy?
Take all up.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It was enough for me.
I smoked two cigarettes duringit, okay, without knowing how
quickly there was that Tenminutes, oh yeah, so I it.
Okay, without knowing howquickly there was that 10
minutes, oh yeah.
So I was pulling them prettyquick.
I actually, at the end of it, Ithink my incumbent team was
more stressed about it than Iwas- how do you debrief from
that with your team?
(27:29):
It was one of those things whereI could tell they were rattled.
They were pretty upset about itall, I think.
But know, joking and uh beingmy usual self, they're like I
could tell they 'll, theyweren't uh very happy a lot of
what I was just telling.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
You know, you gotta be, you gotta tell mostly the
truth and you have to have umyou have to have three steps
ahead of them in your planningwhen they ask you something and
you have to sell it and I don'tmean selling the fact that
you've got this long backdropstory of something that's phony,
but mostly what's true.
You know, I had a truck that Idrove that looked like it was a
(28:08):
construction truck, right, Apoor and concrete kind of truck.
That was my undercover vehiclefor a long time and I didn't
just use the truck.
I had all the equipment in thetruck and I would have bid
sheets on my dashboard and I Ihad a guy come up to my window
once who my informant was goingto nurse me to and I found out
later that he was a formerinformant for a different agency
(28:30):
and his name was Phil.
It's like, hey, what do you do,paul?
I said I'm in, I'm in concretework.
He's like bullshit, you don'tdo concrete.
And so, because I hadpre-planned Jason up on my dash
or above my visor, I pulled downa bid sheet and I handed it to
him and I wrote that bid sheetthat day, had the date on it and
the address and it was my oldaddress.
(28:51):
So I know the address and itwas my old address so I know the
address and I could describe.
I could describe the driveway Iwas going to pour and all the
dimensions and I know a littlebit about concrete.
So I had all the, had thenumbers under the measurements
and the cost and the and the,the labor hours, and I handed
him the.
I handed him the, the bid sheet, and said f you, and he looks
at it for about a minute he'slike oh, I guess you do concrete
and I'm like get out of my facepunk and I ended up buying dope
(29:15):
from him a couple days laterbecause he believed my story.
And I think that's where someguys fall short is that, you
know?
And that was me the firstcouple times that somebody asked
me what I did.
Oh, I'm a welder and I don'tknow shit about welding.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
And I could tell there were times where they
wouldn't believe me, and so likeI can't use that story anymore
because I'm not a welder, but Iknow concrete and I know some
construction, so I just I letthem know that they have to kind
of be backstopped themselves,since our department doesn't do
it.
You know, have the, have someprops to come with.
You, have some things they cansee.
I used to put pictures of meand my buddies who weren't cops
(29:54):
on the on the sun visor of mycar, or especially if they were
friends of mine that had passedaway.
Yep Cause I get, there's apicture of this guy and there's
a picture of someone else.
You know, they're wearingconstruction outfits you know,
it just sold it.
you know that this is what I do,and that's when I got better.
I you, and that's when I gotbetter.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
You know, originally it's the little details.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Yeah, I look like this big, burly biker.
I used to wear my HarleyDavidson shirts cut off and the
goatee was down to my bellybutton and I acted like a biker
and I'm not a biker and a lot ofthe deals that I had that
failed.
You know my boss would saylater like I think you scared
the crap out of that, dude youlook too mean.
He thinks you're going to beathim up or you're going to rip
(30:36):
him off.
When I finally went to thatundercover school, the guy's
like, yeah, you look too mean,dude, you're scaring people.
Change your look, you need tosmile more.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
So I went from the biker.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Look to a construction worker.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Look Instead of being the tough guy, I was just a
dude.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
You know, that was it and that's what I pass on to
these guys is you got to just bethe dude, you got to be an
everyday nobody.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Eleven years after I resigned I had a major, probably
a breakdown or very close to it, major anxiety attack, quite
crippling, and I started seeinga counsellor.
I had no idea about counsellingand that was 2006.
So you know, I went through astage of seeing counsellors
(31:24):
trying to find the right one,knowing full well that I had
issues not understanding whatthey were all of that.
So you know, off and on for thenext probably 10 years or so,
in and out of counsellingoffices, no regularity, trying
to probably fix myself, I guess,through you know, exercise and
(31:45):
as much research as I could, nothaving a great deal of success,
because I still drank way toomuch.
I was angry, I was withdrawn, Iwas all of the classic symptoms
of PTSD.
I started writing a couple ofchapters to give to my daughters
, because they were then older.
They'd grown up with me in thatwhole world of post-traumatic
(32:07):
stress disorder and it's adisorder for a reason.
It's named a disorder for areason.
If it affects your life longerthan four to six weeks, it's a
disorder.
So I wanted to write somethingto them when I was getting
better.
I have to clarify I was neverphysically violent.
I was never mentally abusive.
I was just withdrawn.
I was just, you know, had angerabout little things that would
(32:29):
flash to the surface.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I think that's the thing with PTSD that most people
will see it as outbursts ofanger that become violent,
whereas for a vast majority ofpeople that suffer with it it's
small things like snapping atthe dog or that sort of thing
which, yes, is a violentreaction, but it's seen as in
(32:53):
society, it's probably seen asokay, well, that's just an
everyday reaction and that'swhat it's put down to.
Things have just gotten toomuch on that particular day, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
There's no understanding across that a
number of these little thingsadd up to maybe something like
PTSD.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Yeah, look, and again , book number two.
I've written about how someonetold me I might have PTSD and I
didn't believe him because Ithought that was only for people
who've done really dangerousstuff and in hindsight have been
in gun battles I've lost a mate, you know all of that stuff
which is really dangerous stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
So I started writing.
I wanted to give the girlssomething to help them
understand why I had been like Ihad been for so long.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
So,
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