August 12, 2024 • 36 mins
What happens when the badge comes off but the hypervigilance remains? Join Jason Somerville and guest Ben Schultz as they recount their personal journeys from the high-stakes world of law enforcement to the unpredictable terrain of civilian life. Ben opens up about the challenges that come with relinquishing the authority inherent in police work, and how this loss often manifests as frustration and impatience in everyday situations. Together, they tackle the emotional complexities of their transitions, shedding light on the lasting impact of their former roles on their current lives.
Transitioning to a new career is no small feat, especially when your previous job involved reading people and solving crimes. Ben delves into how his detective skills have seamlessly transferred to the corporate world and political campaigns, making him an asset in recruitment and candidate assessment. With engaging anecdotes, he illustrates the practical applications of investigative work and psychological profiling in these new arenas, proving that the expertise gained from years on the force remains invaluable.
Police clubs play a critical role in maintaining officer well-being, offering a sanctuary where stress and trauma can be shared among understanding peers. Reflecting on their experiences in various locations, Jason and Ben underscore the importance of these communal spaces for mental health. From the intense stress encountered in roles like bush policing to the coping mechanisms that helped manage it, they discuss the resilience and self-awareness necessary to navigate such demanding careers. Whether you're a former officer or simply curious about the human side of policing, this episode promises heartfelt stories and crucial insights into life beyond the thin blue line.
Two Ordinary Cops Podcast can be found here - https://twoordinarycops.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a glint
into something you will likelynever get to experience Uncover
the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me Jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police officer
myself, as we navigate throughthese stories on Behind the Thin
Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome back to part three ofmy conversation with Ben Schultz
(01:30):
.
Let's jump right back in andfind out where we're at.
I've been out for 20 years andit's the hypervigilance and
you're right, you heighten senseof I don't want to say paranoia
, but it could almost beparanoia as well to a certain
extent.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Have you found that affect other things?
So with me the example is roadrage, stupid people, oh yeah,
yeah, people don't indicate mate.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
That sends me in an absolute rage.
Well, we're not Melbourne.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
It shouldn't be that bad.
But and look, the other thingis, I guess one of the big
things I struggle with is andI've spoken about this a couple
of times um, so people either door don't respect the job.
But you don't have to explainyourself to people as to to what
(02:23):
your job is or what you do, etcetera.
When you go to someone.
You go to someone and you say Ineed you to do this and by
virtue of the fact that you're apolice officer, that has a
certain gravitas, and peopledon't go.
Some people do go.
What do you mean?
You just arrest them, and Iguess the biggest issue I have
(02:46):
is I'm an expert in my field.
Now, yeah, you know, I know myshit, but I still have people
who go.
You don't know what you'retalking about, and that that
then leads to me beingaggressive, yeah, and me blowing
my top, yeah, and that sort ofthing.
And you can correlate the twobetween I've gone from this
(03:07):
situation where I could do that.
I've left.
Now People have the samedisrespect as they probably did
when I was a police officer, butI can't do anything about it,
yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactlyright, there's no outlet for it
.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
Like I still remember, one ofmy sayings was was the fact that
you know you're talking tosomebody down the street and
it's not really serious andyou're trying to get them to go
their separate ways and I'll sitthere and go.
Look, you've got two choices.
Basically, you, you get off,get on your bike and go home, or
I'll take you to the cells andthey sit there and go.
(03:39):
Oh, no, I'd rather I said no.
No, this isn't a negotiation.
You, you've got two choices.
If you don't make a choice upin the next 30 seconds, I'm
going to make it for you and youwon't like my choice.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So yeah, and it's funny because in the corporate
world there's this thing aboutoh, you have to bring people
along with you, you have to sellyour idea, you have to sell
your, your um, you know changesand change management and all
(04:12):
that sort of stuff, um, and yougo, okay, so it's been 12 months
trying to change things.
When do you get to the pointwhere you just go, hey, stupid,
this is, this is what'shappening, let's do it.
That's right.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.
But there's none of that.
There's this whole oh no, no,you've got to keep trying to
convince people, blah, blah,blah, blah.
(04:33):
And that's one thing I'vestruggled with, because I've
spent so long in my formativeyears going okay, you have a
choice, you have a choice, youhave a choice, you have a choice
.
No, fucking choice You'recoming with me Exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah, and it is frustratingtrying to deal with, like some
people and you're just sittingthere going, just make a choice.
Like you know, we've got tomove on here.
We can't, you know.
You imagine if police actuallywent to an incident and they
were sitting there umming andahhing for the next month on how
they're going to handle it.
Nothing could ever get done.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, no, you're right.
How do you find that inpolitics?
Sorry, how do you find that inpolitics?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Well, mate, so I'm helping out on a campaign at the
moment and it is so dealing,you're dealing with a lot of
egos.
When it comes to politics, youknow, everybody wants to get
their name and face recognizedfor helping out on a campaign
and all that sort of stuff.
Um and and on the campaignmanager, like for this
particular one and you, you'vegot to.
(05:39):
Basically, and unfortunately,like I said, it's definitely not
a will or machine.
They couldn't organize, as ineven the whole party as a
structure, they couldn'torganize anything and anyway.
So I'm trying to bring theminto.
It's more like it's a policestyle of doing things.
So, people in the police, theyhave jobs.
(06:01):
We have like a sergeant, heknows what's going on and he's
the one that directs the troops.
So, um and don't, and thosetroops don't step out their,
their lanes, so to speak, whenthey're doing their tasks.
They do it and they come backto the sergeant and then you
know, and then it goes back andforth.
Problem is, you've got to tryand bring people into that way
of thinking and for peoplethat's never had that way of
(06:23):
thinking or understand thestructure of the police force,
um, it's, it's very hard to do.
However, some people mightdisagree, going well, you
shouldn't be doing it like thepolice, and I said but the
police is very efficient when itcomes to getting jobs done and
getting decisions exactly, yepand, and there's a hierarchy.
So look it's.
It's definitely a task, but I'm, I'm getting there, getting
(06:45):
there, I'm slowly getting peopleto understand the way, my
method, because, even to acertain extent, they say, oh,
you're too laid back.
I said but the thing is, you'vegot to be watching over
everything.
I can't get involved in thingsbecause if I don't I'll lose
sight of what's happening off tothe left of me or the right to
me.
My job is to sit there andoverlook everybody.
(07:06):
So it's yeah, but I mean, youknow it's a learning curve,
let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Fair enough.
I guess that brings me toanother point.
So when police leave the police, hang on.
Let me rephrase that whenpeople leave the police, they
don't know what to do, theydon't know where to go, they
don't know what sort of jobsthey could be looking at.
One of the things that I foundwith mine so a people job, which
(07:38):
I'm doing in recruitment, butalso a heavy process role where
you have steps you have tofollow.
When you do those steps, a, b,b or C happens and you can
follow through.
I'm a firm believer that that'sthe sort of jobs probably
people leaving the police shouldstart to look at, because
that's what their life has beenfor 5, 10, 15, 25 years or
(08:02):
whatever it is.
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
yeah, mate, I.
So when I actually left thepolice and probably the easiest
way to touch on that is is thefact I applied for a lot of jobs
, and it was a lot of jobs,especially in the way of running
teams I I wouldn't ever say,and I'll even say now, I
wouldn't, I'm not, I'm not thebest leader in the world, I'm
not the, you know, the bestperson in charge.
However, I've had a lot ofexperience doing it and I've
(08:26):
learned every step of the way onhow to be better at what I do.
Um, and when you look at andyou'll probably agree with me
here when you look at some ofthe leaders around the place at
the moment, you're going holyshit, yeah, true, and um, so I
applied for a lot of jobs, um,that basically had that role and
stuff that I could almost do inmy sleep, because I mean, if
(08:48):
you look at every police officer, and especially the ones that
have been in really significantstuff, like you know, you were
undercover.
I ran a station you know out inArnhem Land for three years and
I prosecuted as well, and I alsoled them through two cyclones,
you know.
So I was a pastor, managementas well and all this sort of
(09:08):
stuff.
So I applied for a lot of thesejobs and you don't even get a
look in and I'm going.
You look at the people that getit and you go.
I'm a hundred times moreexperienced than that.
But also my problem, I don'thave those ticks behind my name
to say that I can do this, eventhough I have done it, if you
know what I mean.
So you know I've got basicallya diploma in public safety which
(09:29):
I got through the police andI've done my detective's
training and all that sort ofstuff.
I've got all this training I'vedone.
But you know they like theletters or the ticks after in
the boxes for the degrees andall that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Here's something that and this is probably another
podcast episode but it's veryhard because when you apply for
a job in the police, you have towrite it in a certain way.
Yes, that's correct.
Yeah, when you apply for a jobin the real world, you have to
write it in a completelydifferent way, and people don't
(10:03):
understand.
They take their look at theirpolice history and they go oh,
I've been a police officer, whatelse have I done?
And they don't look at thelittle things, whereas you can
take some of the things.
So, for example, I became atour leader.
Now I relied on the fact that Ihad to deal with stressful
situations.
(10:24):
I had to deal with situationsthat required you to think
quickly.
I had to deal with situationswith multiple people, organize
multiple things if something washappening, run multiple things,
that sort of stuff.
So I took instances of each ofthose things to say here's where
I could be a good tour leaderbecause I've got this experience
(10:45):
.
Yeah, on these little things,most people look at the policing
and go I've been a policeofficer.
How do I break that down?
And and again, this is probablyanother episode thing, but I
think one of the things you needto do is write down all the
things that you've done, yeah,and then go okay, well, I could
use that, or I could use that.
The other thing I wanted to askyou is when you left, did you
(11:07):
have an idea of what you wereother than going into politics?
Yeah, did you have an idea ofwhat you wanted to do?
Or you just thought, oh, I'lldo investigating roles or I'll
do government roles, becausethat's what everyone says I
should do?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, oh, not so much .
I loved investigating.
I loved working as a detectiveLike it was some of the
highlights of my career.
I really love.
I love reading people and Ilove figuring out why they do
what they do.
And, to be completely honest,when I left, if I knew what I
knew now, I would have takenthat year's leave without pay.
Honest, when I left, if I knewwhat I knew now, I would have
(11:39):
taken that years leave withoutpay and I would have actually
gone over to the States andtried to talk to the behavioral
science unit of the FBI.
Yep, because I think they arejust incredible what they do.
It's absolutely amazing.
If anybody's ever watched mindhunter or read the book, it is
just absolutely mind-blowing.
And I love the psychology.
(12:03):
One of my talents, I suppose, ornatural abilities, is to read
people and judge.
You know what they're going todo or why they're doing it, and
so on and so forth.
And I just thought, wow, thatwould have look, I would have
been.
You know, I would have been aduck on the pond, I would have
been happy.
Duck on the pond, I would havebeen happy, as happy as anything
doing that.
Um, so yeah, and so I wanted totry and do investigative roles
(12:27):
and I actually applied, even inthe army, to investigate
incidents, you know, betweenother troops and stuff like that
, and they were out of all theones I applied for they were the
only ones that called me backand the only reason they didn't
take me was because the lastthree years I hadn't been in a
detective role.
I'd been at Bush and they saidthey wanted somebody that had
(12:49):
been working as a detectivewithin the last three years.
And yeah, which is which is?
I think I like that.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, but it's interesting you talk about the
reading people and that sort ofstuff, because I use a lot of
that when I interview candidates.
Yeah, when I'm speaking tocandidates and that sort of
thing, I use a lot of thoseskills.
Now, I didn't have them beforeI joined.
Whether they were inherent ornot is another, another, another
issue.
Yeah, but I learned how to dothat.
I remember, uh, I rememberhaving a sergeant when I was
(13:22):
really early in my career whosaid to me you're going to see
someone and you're going to saythere's something wrong here,
yeah, and 95% of the time you'regoing to be right, yeah, yeah,
there is something wrong, yeah,um, and so I use that now, that
learned ability in recruitment.
(13:44):
Now, who would have thoughtthat you could use your police
stuff in recruitment?
Yeah, that's right, exactly.
And, as I keep saying, Iinterview people, I'm just not
allowed to use a phone bookanymore.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, we never got the joy of phone books either,
um, but the world of leasing hadchanged by the time we joined
um.
So I'll tell you a funny onethere, and this is this is a
story when I was back trainingum, you know people constable
straight out of the college andum, anyway, I've been training
(14:20):
this guy for a couple of monthsand we've gone to oh look, it
was a, it was, it was a domesticincident that morning.
I mean, we've been to thousandsof jobs and it was a domestic
incident and it was funnybecause, um, the woman was
absolutely going apeshit.
The male was so calm, but hewas too calm, if you know what I
(14:42):
mean.
Yeah, and anyway she's.
So she looked like the offender, she looked like she was just
going off her tree and all thatsort of thing.
It wasn't physical and all thatsort of stuff.
And anyway, I basically I said,nah, here's the one.
And so we.
One thing we always did in thepolice, and I'll I'll talk on
this after I finish thisincident we're at the police
club.
Um, just after, like we, whenwe finish shift most of the time
(15:04):
, we went out police cut for oneor two beers, sometimes 100, um
, and we, um, I was sittingthere and my, my junior officer.
He turned to me and he goes howdo you know?
And I said well, what do youmean?
How do I know?
And he goes I have been tothousands of incidents with you.
And he said, basically onarrival, you know who the
(15:27):
offender is, you know who thevictim is and you know who the
witnesses are.
You can identify them almostimmediately.
And he said, yeah, and he saidtoday I still haven't seen you
get it wrong.
Why, how do you do it?
And I said I don't know how Ido it.
And I said but I explained tohim, like that incident, that
domestic we'd gone to, becausethat obviously twigged him.
I said you, usually the onethat screams and points fingers,
(15:50):
they're the usually theoffender, because you know
they're the aggressive people,the ones that go off.
They always point the finger atsomebody else to try and take
the focus off them.
But I said in that instantmorning you, you look, he was
too calm.
If, because domestics are veryemotional, people get emotional,
he was.
He should have had a betteremotional response to that
(16:12):
incident, but he didn't and hewas acting because he was trying
to act calm, so she would lookguilty.
Um, yeah, so it was, but Inever realized I had that
ability until he kind of pointedthat out, because I'd just been
doing it.
You know what I mean.
Like you know you, it was askill that I didn't realize I'd
learned, um, you know, frombeing in the police, until he,
(16:33):
he kind of pointed it out andand you're right, and that's
that's, I guess, what I'mgetting at.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
When people apply for jobs, they have these skills
that they don't know that theyhave, and that's one of the
things that I think is important.
Um, anyway, look, I'll move on.
Yeah, um, what?
What's a common myth you thinkthat people have about being a
copper?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
um, I was gonna say we drink too much, but that's
definitely true.
Yeah, I'm Nick.
Oh, I don't really know.
I've never really thought aboutit.
Have you heard of any yourself?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I guess you know the things like everyone eats donuts
.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Oh, yeah, well, yeah, that's true, yeah, I suppose.
Yeah, no, I mean the problem isdonuts.
We didn't really have them upin the territory.
Yeah, I think we've had them inAustralia.
You know, I actually once saidto Damo in one of our podcast
episodes he said he was walkingdown the street, you know, for
lunch, and I said are you goingto get donuts?
He goes, no, he said donuts ismore like an American cop thing
(17:39):
and he said and besides thechoice of donuts in Tennant
Creek, he's very sparse.
But like I just want to touch onsomething, just something I
touched on before.
We were very big believers inthe police club or the police
clubs up in the NorthernTerritory and I know they kind
(18:01):
of died out in other policeforces earlier on, um, but a lot
of them stuck around um I, whenI was specifically shift
sergeant in catherine, I wouldalmost make it mandatory that
people come over the police clubI don't care if they drink
water, um, at the end of everyshift for at least half an hour.
But because my whole belief andI got taught by Bob Rennie, one
(18:23):
of the real senior officers.
You know, he was the first onewe met when we went up to the
police club in Darwin there andit's the thing of offload here
at the police club and don'ttake it home.
And you're also talking topeople that understand what
you're going through.
So if you've had a traumaticincident, then we'll spend
longer here, because it's easierto talk to people that
(18:44):
understand what you're whatyou're saying.
Um, yep and dame and I talkabout this a bit and taking
nothing away from psychologistsand all that sort of thing but
I've always found talking tolike-minded people who have
actually done the job is farmore beneficial for me than
talking to somebody that youknow, yeah, they studied
psychology and all that sort ofthing, but they've never lived
(19:05):
it and yeah, so that was.
I loved the police clubs forthat reason and you know,
obviously you know I'mreasonably saying I'd like to
think so I've still got.
You know my little demons andall that sort of stuff, but I
can tell you I spent a lot oftime in that police club, yep,
(19:26):
so it's interesting, the youknow, the only police club I
ever, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
When I was in the city I used to go to the one in
Brisbane but that got knockeddown.
But in Mount Isa that was a bigone, mount Isa, the police club
there, partly because it wasdownstairs in the barracks,
which was both good and bad ifyou had a 6 am start on a
Saturday morning, but good ifyou didn't.
What do you think the mostdifficult part about being a
(19:58):
copper is?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I think, especially for us, um trying to manage, um,
differentiating between the joband your home life, um, uh,
like, yeah, and damo said it'sperfect.
He said like because and anypolice officer know this well
when you're on duty, you'resitting at a level that most
people don't sit at becauseyou've got to be really tuned in
(20:22):
with what's happening aroundyou and so you're really
attentive about what's going on,like you're looking for crime
and looking for danger and allthat sort of stuff.
But when you come home, it'skind of like you've drained your
batteries and you're like amobile phone on a charger.
Um, so one of the difficultieswas definitely managing your
(20:44):
home life, because you know,like, dame, I said you get home
and you know your wife goes oh,do you want to go into this?
Yeah, maybe, like you know, oh,you know how would you shift?
Yeah, it was good.
Um, you know, and he goes,you're just sitting there
because you don't.
All you, all you want to do istry and build your battery back
up before you go and do it again, and I think that was probably
(21:06):
one of the hardest things tolearn.
I mean, I think what burnt meout in the end?
I did bush policing for fouryears and I didn't.
It didn't matter when you'rehome, you're getting called out,
you know.
So I lived those jobs and,preceding that, I was working in
the family and domesticviolence unit and I was doing 14
hour days.
I I had my, I could write myown overtime.
(21:28):
Um, it was that busy and thatwas when I was in Catherine and
it does take a lot out of you, Iguess.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And um, what do you think then?
With those sorts of things,what's the most surprising thing
you've learned about yourself?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Probably how resilient I really was, like I
remember.
So in the I'll go back to thefamily and domestic violence
unit when we were working therewe used to get psych assessed, I
think every three months,because it's fairly stressful.
You know you're dealing withemotional stuff all the time and
you know we're completely fine.
And one of the questionnairesthe psychologists would get to
(22:11):
fill out was do you ever feellike not coming in in the
morning, like coming to work inthe morning?
And I go no, always.
It didn't matter whether Ispent 18 hours and only got a
quarter of the stuff done theday before that I really wanted
to get done.
I would still jump up the nextday and go, yeah, I'm going to
get it done today.
And I did that day in and dayout for basically five years
(22:36):
nonstop.
And it was probably four yearsBecause I remember and I was
doing it when I went out andtook over the station around
McGinney I was just goingabsolutely hammer and tongs like
getting up and yeah, you stillgot a pile of paperwork next to
and you just keep on going hard.
And then, out of the blue, Iwoke up one morning because I
(22:59):
was always in there at seven,even though I was like I started
at eight and I woke up onemorning and I'm just gone.
I don't have to go until late.
Why bother?
And only because I'd filled outthat questionnaire.
It clicked and I've gone.
That's it.
It's finally broken me.
So that was yeah.
Sorry, that was a learningcurve.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
And I was just going to go on with that to say you
were talking about.
You know, you were out and youdidn't get that buzz and that
sort of thing.
When you realized, was it alsopart of that as well?
You wake out and you didn't getthat buzz and that sort of
thing.
When you realised, Was it alsopart of that as well, that you
wake up and you go.
I don't really want to do this.
Why am I doing this?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, Basically, I love the job itself, but I
remember the last year, so, whenI was in Borough Law that was
absolutely flat out and this hadalready happened I was rocking.
I basically lived on thestation ground, so I'd rock in
at eight on the dot and, um, youknow, and I'd leave it for you.
Get up at seven, 55.
Yeah, that's right, exactly.
(23:56):
Yeah, basically roll out of bedand walk into the police
station, um, but uh, and I stillremember, I think back I was, I
was considered if, if I lookback on me back then I was, I
was definitely to work on theverge of breaking down.
Um, I would.
Luckily, I'd actually learnedhow to meditate and I used to go
(24:17):
home at lunch and lie down onmy bed for half an hour and
meditate so I could get throughthe afternoon shift.
So that's, that's how and itwas one of those things.
I was also the two I see there,so I'd step down from being a
sergeant, but I was basically incharge of the troops and then
the sergeant was in charge ofall of us.
So I would check the files.
But I still remember sittingthere thinking if we got an
(24:39):
arrest, the troops would turn tome and go basically look at me
and go, what are we doing?
And I'd go, okay, you do this,you do this, you do this, you do
this.
Basically, if it's an overtimeshift we had to watch them
overnight I'll do the last umshift of watching them before
they get on the plane to fly todarwin, if they're remaining
(24:59):
custody.
Uh, that way, I checked thefile because I was a prosecutor
and I remember at one stage wegot this arrest and I knew it
was coming because they weregoing to turn to me once again.
You know what, what are we,what are our jobs?
And I just certainly want to go.
I wish somebody else could dothis.
You know, I was tired, and itwasn't, it wasn't that I wasn't
capable, I just I was just tiredof doing it.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, so, yeah, do you meditatenow?
(25:22):
Yeah, sometimes, yeah, yeah,yeah, do you find it helpful?
Uh, yeah, definitely, if I mean, I don't really need it that
much at the moment.
But especially, I was workingin the council office and you
know, and um, and it was prettybusy at times and I had a lot of
other stuff going on as well.
There was one stage I had threejobs on the go.
Um, and there was sometimesthere where I'd actually sit
(25:45):
there and go.
No, I just need to calm themind for a little bit.
Um, I used to do it with beer,but I don't do it with beer as
much anymore.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Fair enough.
So I guess there are peoplelistening to this that might not
be in the police and or mightthink they want to join the
police.
What advice do you have forsomeone?
Firstly, what advice do youhave for someone who wants to be
a police officer?
And secondly, what do you thinkis the most crucial trait
(26:19):
someone needs to be a policeofficer?
We'll go with the trait firstwhat do you think is the most
crucial trait someone needs tohave to be a police officer?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
To be a police officer, I think you have to be
a certain personality, or you'rebetter.
If you're a certain personality, you need to be able to handle
confrontation, um, becauseconfrontation happens all the
time.
Um, I I myself personally don'tlike confrontation that much,
but I mean, I've always beeninvolved in it because it's just
(26:52):
the way my life has run.
I've always put myself in roleswhere it is like that and I've
always, like I said, I've alwaysstood up for the underdog.
So it's um, you know, that's,that's just the person that I am
.
But because I know some peopleweren't over like, I work with
some people that weren't overlyconfrontational, and it was.
You had to be, you had to walkin.
(27:12):
You have to talk to thesepeople.
You know if, if they're a rapevictim, you have to talk to them
.
You need to get thisinformation out of them.
You, you can't be shy aboutdoing that, um, and and you've
got to you've also got to beconsiderate and, you know um
compassionate when you're doingit as well, um, but you have to
face these things as a policeofficer.
(27:34):
So, yeah, that's probably oneof the main things I would say
You've got to be able to handleconfrontation and you've got to
be able to do it.
Once you do it for a while, itwill become second nature.
If you look at my personalitybecause they did personality
tests in the police and I wasI'm an influential sort of
(27:55):
person, um, but it was funnywhen they were actually doing it
and then they did some roleplays about situations and the
sergeant who'd known me for avery long time and he said, well
, he said none of you actuallysit in the dominant um thing.
But he said, schultz, I wantyou to act in the dominant thing
.
He said this said Schultz, Iwant you to act in the dominant
thing.
He said this isn't yourpersonality, but I've seen you
do it a hundred times throughyour career.
(28:16):
Because you were a sergeant,you had to make sure you laid
down the law and all that sortof stuff, and I never really
kind of realized or thoughtabout it that way.
So I think confrontation isdefinitely the main one For
people wanting to join thepolice.
Do it.
It was the best thing I everdid in my life.
It, you know, even though, likeyou know, I mean I've talked
(28:39):
about some you know shit thingsand all that about coming out
after and all that, but I tellyou what I have got stories till
the end of half and beyond itis.
It was some of the best fun Ihad in my life.
Um, you know, we got paid to doit, I concur sorry I go.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Well, yeah, no, that's, that's okay.
I was just gonna say and that'sprobably, that was probably the
glitch, the um.
We're having some internetissues again, um, but people say
to me oh you've, but you youwent through and you're out, so
you probably wouldn't recommend.
It's like no, I'll never say noto someone.
Don't join.
It'll be join, but be aware ofthe beast that policing is, be
(29:22):
aware of the impact it's goingto have on you.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yes, yes, definitely.
Um, I said you've got tounderstand you have to be
involved.
It's a lifestyle.
Policing is not a job, it's alifestyle.
You've got to do it for theright reasons and you've got to
(29:50):
give it 100% because if youdon't, you'll fall behind very
quickly and you'll probablybecome even more traumatized.
I think by the end it and theother the other important thing
for anybody wanting to join youare not going to save the world.
You will save.
Be happy with saving those fewthat you can save and help.
Don't go in there thinkingyou're going to change the world
, because it just won't happenyeah, very true.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Um and uh, talking about embracing the lifestyle,
if you're married, probably getdivorced before you get one.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
I can definitely vouch for that mate.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
All right, look what I might do.
We've spoken about a lot ofthings and I just want to do you
want to give another plug foryour and Damo's podcast and
where people can find it?
Yeah, mate.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah.
So basically, damo and I Ithink we started about the same
time and it's called TwoOrdinary Cops.
The reason we call ourselvesordinary?
Because we're nothing out ofthe normal policing.
You know, we tell our storiesand all that sort of thing, but
we're nothing special.
We were cops like the men andwomen out there today doing the
job, um, and there's there's farbetter cops than what we were.
(30:56):
There's far better leaders thanwhat we were, and that's why we
called ourselves ordinary,because we never really wanted
to talk up.
You know we didn't.
We don't think we're anythingspecial, we just did the job and
we loved the job.
Um, and we love the funnystories, um, because people love
the funny stories.
So if you want to listen to,we've got everything on there
from we talk about ptsd, uh, wetalk about leadership, uh.
(31:19):
We talk about, um, funnystories.
Uh, they're one of the mostpopular ones and there are some
funny ones, like that one I toldearlier.
Um, uh, we, yeah, we talk aboutspecialist roles, what it's
like moving from a detective um,you know, in and out of
detectives and playing clothesand and back into, back into, um
, you know, uh, frontlinepolicing, um, yeah, and we talk
(31:41):
about the college as well, whatit's like going through the
college.
So if you want to join thepolice force, have a listen to
our first episode, because itruns through what the college
life is like and what ourexperiences were, and then the
next episode is once we just gotout on the road.
So we talk about some of thehorrific incidents we've been to
(32:01):
.
We talk about our worst jobs,which was very difficult for
both of us to talk about.
They're the ones that haunt ustoday.
So if you really want to get agood understanding, then have a
listen to Two Ordinary Cops youcan.
If you search Two Ordinary Copsjust on the internet, it's
twoordinarycopscom and thatwould lead you to the website.
(32:24):
Otherwise, you can go on ourFacebook page.
If you look up Two OrdinaryCops, we're there.
If you want to email us, it'scontactus at twoordinarycopscom.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
So yeah, and my pod role also has a link to the
podcast on both Spotify and theApple one, whatever it is.
Yeah, Apple iTunes I'msubscribed to you guys so people
can find it there.
Awesome, yeah, something likethat, and there will be a link
(32:56):
in the bottom as well.
Alright, look what I might dobefore we finish up one of the
things hopefully I'm going toget Damo on in the next couple
of weeks as well to have a chatto him to tell some stories
about you, yep and I should havetold more about him.
I'll miss the boat you didn'tthink of that, did you?
(33:18):
You know, um, what I'll do isI'll leave the last comment to
you, okay um, look in.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
In saying that I was, I was just going to touch on it
something we spoke about offair I think it was when we um,
before we started the recordingand um, basically us doing this
podcast.
Uh, you reached out because yousaw us on the thin blue line um
, you know, and said you know,would you be happy about getting
on?
And then I spoke to you on thephone I, we talk about the thin
(33:45):
blue line.
Yes, it is a thin blue line,but it's bloody strong.
You know, it doesn't matter whatjurisdiction you come from, it
doesn't matter which country youcome from.
You will understand and you'vegot a camaraderie that never
goes away.
So, if you want to join thepolice, that that's what it is.
It's a lifestyle and you knowyou've got comrades, so to speak
, that um, and they will stickup for you.
(34:06):
We always used to sit there andthere was one cop at one stage
and, uh, he's sitting there andgo.
Yeah, he might be a retard, buthe's our retard, you know what
I mean.
He's one of us and, um, andwe'll always stick up for him it
really is like a big family.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
It's like when everyone says, oh, you know, I'm
gonna get you.
It's like, well, yeah, but whatabout my 10 000 brothers and
sisters that are behind me?
You know, know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
That's exactly right.
Yeah, what is that?
Bob Rennie says it's a longblue arm.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
It is.
It is and it really is aworthwhile.
I think from an altruisticpoint of view it's a worthwhile
calling and it's a job that youcan get immense pride and
feeling of doing something good.
It has its shit moments andthat sort of thing, but you know
(34:57):
.
All right, look, I will leaveit there.
Sheltzie, thanks for coming on,and to everyone else, thank you
for listening to Behind the ThinBlue Line.
Look, if you're a current orpast police officer and you'd
like to tell your story or talkabout what you do and what
you've done, then please emailme at whisperintheshadowspodcast
(35:18):
at gmailcom.
I will catch you next time,hopefully with Shelty's other
half, damo.
Thank you and goodbye, see ya.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
(35:39):
In the next episode we'll againexplore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
(36:01):
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a glint
into something you will likelynever get to experience Uncover
the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me Jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police officer
myself, as we navigate throughthese stories on Behind the Thin
Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome back to part three ofmy conversation with Ben Schultz
(01:30):
.
Let's jump right back in andfind out where we're at.
I've been out for 20 years andit's the hypervigilance and
you're right, you heighten senseof I don't want to say paranoia
, but it could almost beparanoia as well to a certain
extent.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Have you found that affect other things?
So with me the example is roadrage, stupid people, oh yeah,
yeah, people don't indicate mate.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
That sends me in an absolute rage.
Well, we're not Melbourne.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
It shouldn't be that bad.
But and look, the other thingis, I guess one of the big
things I struggle with is andI've spoken about this a couple
of times um, so people either door don't respect the job.
But you don't have to explainyourself to people as to to what
(02:23):
your job is or what you do, etcetera.
When you go to someone.
You go to someone and you say Ineed you to do this and by
virtue of the fact that you're apolice officer, that has a
certain gravitas, and peopledon't go.
Some people do go.
What do you mean?
You just arrest them, and Iguess the biggest issue I have
(02:46):
is I'm an expert in my field.
Now, yeah, you know, I know myshit, but I still have people
who go.
You don't know what you'retalking about, and that that
then leads to me beingaggressive, yeah, and me blowing
my top, yeah, and that sort ofthing.
And you can correlate the twobetween I've gone from this
(03:07):
situation where I could do that.
I've left.
Now People have the samedisrespect as they probably did
when I was a police officer, butI can't do anything about it,
yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactlyright, there's no outlet for it
.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
Like I still remember, one ofmy sayings was was the fact that
you know you're talking tosomebody down the street and
it's not really serious andyou're trying to get them to go
their separate ways and I'll sitthere and go.
Look, you've got two choices.
Basically, you, you get off,get on your bike and go home, or
I'll take you to the cells andthey sit there and go.
(03:39):
Oh, no, I'd rather I said no.
No, this isn't a negotiation.
You, you've got two choices.
If you don't make a choice upin the next 30 seconds, I'm
going to make it for you and youwon't like my choice.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So yeah, and it's funny because in the corporate
world there's this thing aboutoh, you have to bring people
along with you, you have to sellyour idea, you have to sell
your, your um, you know changesand change management and all
(04:12):
that sort of stuff, um, and yougo, okay, so it's been 12 months
trying to change things.
When do you get to the pointwhere you just go, hey, stupid,
this is, this is what'shappening, let's do it.
That's right.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.
But there's none of that.
There's this whole oh no, no,you've got to keep trying to
convince people, blah, blah,blah, blah.
(04:33):
And that's one thing I'vestruggled with, because I've
spent so long in my formativeyears going okay, you have a
choice, you have a choice, youhave a choice, you have a choice
.
No, fucking choice You'recoming with me Exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah, and it is frustratingtrying to deal with, like some
people and you're just sittingthere going, just make a choice.
Like you know, we've got tomove on here.
We can't, you know.
You imagine if police actuallywent to an incident and they
were sitting there umming andahhing for the next month on how
they're going to handle it.
Nothing could ever get done.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, no, you're right.
How do you find that inpolitics?
Sorry, how do you find that inpolitics?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Well, mate, so I'm helping out on a campaign at the
moment and it is so dealing,you're dealing with a lot of
egos.
When it comes to politics, youknow, everybody wants to get
their name and face recognizedfor helping out on a campaign
and all that sort of stuff.
Um and and on the campaignmanager, like for this
particular one and you, you'vegot to.
(05:39):
Basically, and unfortunately,like I said, it's definitely not
a will or machine.
They couldn't organize, as ineven the whole party as a
structure, they couldn'torganize anything and anyway.
So I'm trying to bring theminto.
It's more like it's a policestyle of doing things.
So, people in the police, theyhave jobs.
(06:01):
We have like a sergeant, heknows what's going on and he's
the one that directs the troops.
So, um and don't, and thosetroops don't step out their,
their lanes, so to speak, whenthey're doing their tasks.
They do it and they come backto the sergeant and then you
know, and then it goes back andforth.
Problem is, you've got to tryand bring people into that way
of thinking and for peoplethat's never had that way of
(06:23):
thinking or understand thestructure of the police force,
um, it's, it's very hard to do.
However, some people mightdisagree, going well, you
shouldn't be doing it like thepolice, and I said but the
police is very efficient when itcomes to getting jobs done and
getting decisions exactly, yepand, and there's a hierarchy.
So look it's.
It's definitely a task, but I'm, I'm getting there, getting
(06:45):
there, I'm slowly getting peopleto understand the way, my
method, because, even to acertain extent, they say, oh,
you're too laid back.
I said but the thing is, you'vegot to be watching over
everything.
I can't get involved in thingsbecause if I don't I'll lose
sight of what's happening off tothe left of me or the right to
me.
My job is to sit there andoverlook everybody.
(07:06):
So it's yeah, but I mean, youknow it's a learning curve,
let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Fair enough.
I guess that brings me toanother point.
So when police leave the police, hang on.
Let me rephrase that whenpeople leave the police, they
don't know what to do, theydon't know where to go, they
don't know what sort of jobsthey could be looking at.
One of the things that I foundwith mine so a people job, which
(07:38):
I'm doing in recruitment, butalso a heavy process role where
you have steps you have tofollow.
When you do those steps, a, b,b or C happens and you can
follow through.
I'm a firm believer that that'sthe sort of jobs probably
people leaving the police shouldstart to look at, because
that's what their life has beenfor 5, 10, 15, 25 years or
(08:02):
whatever it is.
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
yeah, mate, I.
So when I actually left thepolice and probably the easiest
way to touch on that is is thefact I applied for a lot of jobs
, and it was a lot of jobs,especially in the way of running
teams I I wouldn't ever say,and I'll even say now, I
wouldn't, I'm not, I'm not thebest leader in the world, I'm
not the, you know, the bestperson in charge.
However, I've had a lot ofexperience doing it and I've
(08:26):
learned every step of the way onhow to be better at what I do.
Um, and when you look at andyou'll probably agree with me
here when you look at some ofthe leaders around the place at
the moment, you're going holyshit, yeah, true, and um, so I
applied for a lot of jobs, um,that basically had that role and
stuff that I could almost do inmy sleep, because I mean, if
(08:48):
you look at every police officer, and especially the ones that
have been in really significantstuff, like you know, you were
undercover.
I ran a station you know out inArnhem Land for three years and
I prosecuted as well, and I alsoled them through two cyclones,
you know.
So I was a pastor, managementas well and all this sort of
(09:08):
stuff.
So I applied for a lot of thesejobs and you don't even get a
look in and I'm going.
You look at the people that getit and you go.
I'm a hundred times moreexperienced than that.
But also my problem, I don'thave those ticks behind my name
to say that I can do this, eventhough I have done it, if you
know what I mean.
So you know I've got basicallya diploma in public safety which
(09:29):
I got through the police andI've done my detective's
training and all that sort ofstuff.
I've got all this training I'vedone.
But you know they like theletters or the ticks after in
the boxes for the degrees andall that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Here's something that and this is probably another
podcast episode but it's veryhard because when you apply for
a job in the police, you have towrite it in a certain way.
Yes, that's correct.
Yeah, when you apply for a jobin the real world, you have to
write it in a completelydifferent way, and people don't
(10:03):
understand.
They take their look at theirpolice history and they go oh,
I've been a police officer, whatelse have I done?
And they don't look at thelittle things, whereas you can
take some of the things.
So, for example, I became atour leader.
Now I relied on the fact that Ihad to deal with stressful
situations.
(10:24):
I had to deal with situationsthat required you to think
quickly.
I had to deal with situationswith multiple people, organize
multiple things if something washappening, run multiple things,
that sort of stuff.
So I took instances of each ofthose things to say here's where
I could be a good tour leaderbecause I've got this experience
(10:45):
.
Yeah, on these little things,most people look at the policing
and go I've been a policeofficer.
How do I break that down?
And and again, this is probablyanother episode thing, but I
think one of the things you needto do is write down all the
things that you've done, yeah,and then go okay, well, I could
use that, or I could use that.
The other thing I wanted to askyou is when you left, did you
(11:07):
have an idea of what you wereother than going into politics?
Yeah, did you have an idea ofwhat you wanted to do?
Or you just thought, oh, I'lldo investigating roles or I'll
do government roles, becausethat's what everyone says I
should do?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, oh, not so much .
I loved investigating.
I loved working as a detectiveLike it was some of the
highlights of my career.
I really love.
I love reading people and Ilove figuring out why they do
what they do.
And, to be completely honest,when I left, if I knew what I
knew now, I would have takenthat year's leave without pay.
Honest, when I left, if I knewwhat I knew now, I would have
(11:39):
taken that years leave withoutpay and I would have actually
gone over to the States andtried to talk to the behavioral
science unit of the FBI.
Yep, because I think they arejust incredible what they do.
It's absolutely amazing.
If anybody's ever watched mindhunter or read the book, it is
just absolutely mind-blowing.
And I love the psychology.
(12:03):
One of my talents, I suppose, ornatural abilities, is to read
people and judge.
You know what they're going todo or why they're doing it, and
so on and so forth.
And I just thought, wow, thatwould have look, I would have
been.
You know, I would have been aduck on the pond, I would have
been happy.
Duck on the pond, I would havebeen happy, as happy as anything
doing that.
Um, so yeah, and so I wanted totry and do investigative roles
(12:27):
and I actually applied, even inthe army, to investigate
incidents, you know, betweenother troops and stuff like that
, and they were out of all theones I applied for they were the
only ones that called me backand the only reason they didn't
take me was because the lastthree years I hadn't been in a
detective role.
I'd been at Bush and they saidthey wanted somebody that had
(12:49):
been working as a detectivewithin the last three years.
And yeah, which is which is?
I think I like that.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, but it's interesting you talk about the
reading people and that sort ofstuff, because I use a lot of
that when I interview candidates.
Yeah, when I'm speaking tocandidates and that sort of
thing, I use a lot of thoseskills.
Now, I didn't have them beforeI joined.
Whether they were inherent ornot is another, another, another
issue.
Yeah, but I learned how to dothat.
I remember, uh, I rememberhaving a sergeant when I was
(13:22):
really early in my career whosaid to me you're going to see
someone and you're going to saythere's something wrong here,
yeah, and 95% of the time you'regoing to be right, yeah, yeah,
there is something wrong, yeah,um, and so I use that now, that
learned ability in recruitment.
(13:44):
Now, who would have thoughtthat you could use your police
stuff in recruitment?
Yeah, that's right, exactly.
And, as I keep saying, Iinterview people, I'm just not
allowed to use a phone bookanymore.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, we never got the joy of phone books either,
um, but the world of leasing hadchanged by the time we joined
um.
So I'll tell you a funny onethere, and this is this is a
story when I was back trainingum, you know people constable
straight out of the college andum, anyway, I've been training
(14:20):
this guy for a couple of monthsand we've gone to oh look, it
was a, it was, it was a domesticincident that morning.
I mean, we've been to thousandsof jobs and it was a domestic
incident and it was funnybecause, um, the woman was
absolutely going apeshit.
The male was so calm, but hewas too calm, if you know what I
(14:42):
mean.
Yeah, and anyway she's.
So she looked like the offender, she looked like she was just
going off her tree and all thatsort of thing.
It wasn't physical and all thatsort of stuff.
And anyway, I basically I said,nah, here's the one.
And so we.
One thing we always did in thepolice, and I'll I'll talk on
this after I finish thisincident we're at the police
club.
Um, just after, like we, whenwe finish shift most of the time
(15:04):
, we went out police cut for oneor two beers, sometimes 100, um
, and we, um, I was sittingthere and my, my junior officer.
He turned to me and he goes howdo you know?
And I said well, what do youmean?
How do I know?
And he goes I have been tothousands of incidents with you.
And he said, basically onarrival, you know who the
(15:27):
offender is, you know who thevictim is and you know who the
witnesses are.
You can identify them almostimmediately.
And he said, yeah, and he saidtoday I still haven't seen you
get it wrong.
Why, how do you do it?
And I said I don't know how Ido it.
And I said but I explained tohim, like that incident, that
domestic we'd gone to, becausethat obviously twigged him.
I said you, usually the onethat screams and points fingers,
(15:50):
they're the usually theoffender, because you know
they're the aggressive people,the ones that go off.
They always point the finger atsomebody else to try and take
the focus off them.
But I said in that instantmorning you, you look, he was
too calm.
If, because domestics are veryemotional, people get emotional,
he was.
He should have had a betteremotional response to that
(16:12):
incident, but he didn't and hewas acting because he was trying
to act calm, so she would lookguilty.
Um, yeah, so it was, but Inever realized I had that
ability until he kind of pointedthat out, because I'd just been
doing it.
You know what I mean.
Like you know you, it was askill that I didn't realize I'd
learned, um, you know, frombeing in the police, until he,
(16:33):
he kind of pointed it out andand you're right, and that's
that's, I guess, what I'mgetting at.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
When people apply for jobs, they have these skills
that they don't know that theyhave, and that's one of the
things that I think is important.
Um, anyway, look, I'll move on.
Yeah, um, what?
What's a common myth you thinkthat people have about being a
copper?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
um, I was gonna say we drink too much, but that's
definitely true.
Yeah, I'm Nick.
Oh, I don't really know.
I've never really thought aboutit.
Have you heard of any yourself?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I guess you know the things like everyone eats donuts
.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Oh, yeah, well, yeah, that's true, yeah, I suppose.
Yeah, no, I mean the problem isdonuts.
We didn't really have them upin the territory.
Yeah, I think we've had them inAustralia.
You know, I actually once saidto Damo in one of our podcast
episodes he said he was walkingdown the street, you know, for
lunch, and I said are you goingto get donuts?
He goes, no, he said donuts ismore like an American cop thing
(17:39):
and he said and besides thechoice of donuts in Tennant
Creek, he's very sparse.
But like I just want to touch onsomething, just something I
touched on before.
We were very big believers inthe police club or the police
clubs up in the NorthernTerritory and I know they kind
(18:01):
of died out in other policeforces earlier on, um, but a lot
of them stuck around um I, whenI was specifically shift
sergeant in catherine, I wouldalmost make it mandatory that
people come over the police clubI don't care if they drink
water, um, at the end of everyshift for at least half an hour.
But because my whole belief andI got taught by Bob Rennie, one
(18:23):
of the real senior officers.
You know, he was the first onewe met when we went up to the
police club in Darwin there andit's the thing of offload here
at the police club and don'ttake it home.
And you're also talking topeople that understand what
you're going through.
So if you've had a traumaticincident, then we'll spend
longer here, because it's easierto talk to people that
(18:44):
understand what you're whatyou're saying.
Um, yep and dame and I talkabout this a bit and taking
nothing away from psychologistsand all that sort of thing but
I've always found talking tolike-minded people who have
actually done the job is farmore beneficial for me than
talking to somebody that youknow, yeah, they studied
psychology and all that sort ofthing, but they've never lived
(19:05):
it and yeah, so that was.
I loved the police clubs forthat reason and you know,
obviously you know I'mreasonably saying I'd like to
think so I've still got.
You know my little demons andall that sort of stuff, but I
can tell you I spent a lot oftime in that police club, yep,
(19:26):
so it's interesting, the youknow, the only police club I
ever, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
When I was in the city I used to go to the one in
Brisbane but that got knockeddown.
But in Mount Isa that was a bigone, mount Isa, the police club
there, partly because it wasdownstairs in the barracks,
which was both good and bad ifyou had a 6 am start on a
Saturday morning, but good ifyou didn't.
What do you think the mostdifficult part about being a
(19:58):
copper is?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I think, especially for us, um trying to manage, um,
differentiating between the joband your home life, um, uh,
like, yeah, and damo said it'sperfect.
He said like because and anypolice officer know this well
when you're on duty, you'resitting at a level that most
people don't sit at becauseyou've got to be really tuned in
(20:22):
with what's happening aroundyou and so you're really
attentive about what's going on,like you're looking for crime
and looking for danger and allthat sort of stuff.
But when you come home, it'skind of like you've drained your
batteries and you're like amobile phone on a charger.
Um, so one of the difficultieswas definitely managing your
(20:44):
home life, because you know,like, dame, I said you get home
and you know your wife goes oh,do you want to go into this?
Yeah, maybe, like you know, oh,you know how would you shift?
Yeah, it was good.
Um, you know, and he goes,you're just sitting there
because you don't.
All you, all you want to do istry and build your battery back
up before you go and do it again, and I think that was probably
(21:06):
one of the hardest things tolearn.
I mean, I think what burnt meout in the end?
I did bush policing for fouryears and I didn't.
It didn't matter when you'rehome, you're getting called out,
you know.
So I lived those jobs and,preceding that, I was working in
the family and domesticviolence unit and I was doing 14
hour days.
I I had my, I could write myown overtime.
(21:28):
Um, it was that busy and thatwas when I was in Catherine and
it does take a lot out of you, Iguess.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And um, what do you think then?
With those sorts of things,what's the most surprising thing
you've learned about yourself?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Probably how resilient I really was, like I
remember.
So in the I'll go back to thefamily and domestic violence
unit when we were working therewe used to get psych assessed, I
think every three months,because it's fairly stressful.
You know you're dealing withemotional stuff all the time and
you know we're completely fine.
And one of the questionnairesthe psychologists would get to
(22:11):
fill out was do you ever feellike not coming in in the
morning, like coming to work inthe morning?
And I go no, always.
It didn't matter whether Ispent 18 hours and only got a
quarter of the stuff done theday before that I really wanted
to get done.
I would still jump up the nextday and go, yeah, I'm going to
get it done today.
And I did that day in and dayout for basically five years
(22:36):
nonstop.
And it was probably four yearsBecause I remember and I was
doing it when I went out andtook over the station around
McGinney I was just goingabsolutely hammer and tongs like
getting up and yeah, you stillgot a pile of paperwork next to
and you just keep on going hard.
And then, out of the blue, Iwoke up one morning because I
(22:59):
was always in there at seven,even though I was like I started
at eight and I woke up onemorning and I'm just gone.
I don't have to go until late.
Why bother?
And only because I'd filled outthat questionnaire.
It clicked and I've gone.
That's it.
It's finally broken me.
So that was yeah.
Sorry, that was a learningcurve.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
And I was just going to go on with that to say you
were talking about.
You know, you were out and youdidn't get that buzz and that
sort of thing.
When you realized, was it alsopart of that as well?
You wake out and you didn't getthat buzz and that sort of
thing.
When you realised, Was it alsopart of that as well, that you
wake up and you go.
I don't really want to do this.
Why am I doing this?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, Basically, I love the job itself, but I
remember the last year, so, whenI was in Borough Law that was
absolutely flat out and this hadalready happened I was rocking.
I basically lived on thestation ground, so I'd rock in
at eight on the dot and, um, youknow, and I'd leave it for you.
Get up at seven, 55.
Yeah, that's right, exactly.
(23:56):
Yeah, basically roll out of bedand walk into the police
station, um, but uh, and I stillremember, I think back I was, I
was considered if, if I lookback on me back then I was, I
was definitely to work on theverge of breaking down.
Um, I would.
Luckily, I'd actually learnedhow to meditate and I used to go
(24:17):
home at lunch and lie down onmy bed for half an hour and
meditate so I could get throughthe afternoon shift.
So that's, that's how and itwas one of those things.
I was also the two I see there,so I'd step down from being a
sergeant, but I was basically incharge of the troops and then
the sergeant was in charge ofall of us.
So I would check the files.
But I still remember sittingthere thinking if we got an
(24:39):
arrest, the troops would turn tome and go basically look at me
and go, what are we doing?
And I'd go, okay, you do this,you do this, you do this, you do
this.
Basically, if it's an overtimeshift we had to watch them
overnight I'll do the last umshift of watching them before
they get on the plane to fly todarwin, if they're remaining
(24:59):
custody.
Uh, that way, I checked thefile because I was a prosecutor
and I remember at one stage wegot this arrest and I knew it
was coming because they weregoing to turn to me once again.
You know what, what are we,what are our jobs?
And I just certainly want to go.
I wish somebody else could dothis.
You know, I was tired, and itwasn't, it wasn't that I wasn't
capable, I just I was just tiredof doing it.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, so, yeah, do you meditatenow?
(25:22):
Yeah, sometimes, yeah, yeah,yeah, do you find it helpful?
Uh, yeah, definitely, if I mean, I don't really need it that
much at the moment.
But especially, I was workingin the council office and you
know, and um, and it was prettybusy at times and I had a lot of
other stuff going on as well.
There was one stage I had threejobs on the go.
Um, and there was sometimesthere where I'd actually sit
(25:45):
there and go.
No, I just need to calm themind for a little bit.
Um, I used to do it with beer,but I don't do it with beer as
much anymore.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Fair enough.
So I guess there are peoplelistening to this that might not
be in the police and or mightthink they want to join the
police.
What advice do you have forsomeone?
Firstly, what advice do youhave for someone who wants to be
a police officer?
And secondly, what do you thinkis the most crucial trait
(26:19):
someone needs to be a policeofficer?
We'll go with the trait firstwhat do you think is the most
crucial trait someone needs tohave to be a police officer?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
To be a police officer, I think you have to be
a certain personality, or you'rebetter.
If you're a certain personality, you need to be able to handle
confrontation, um, becauseconfrontation happens all the
time.
Um, I I myself personally don'tlike confrontation that much,
but I mean, I've always beeninvolved in it because it's just
(26:52):
the way my life has run.
I've always put myself in roleswhere it is like that and I've
always, like I said, I've alwaysstood up for the underdog.
So it's um, you know, that's,that's just the person that I am
.
But because I know some peopleweren't over like, I work with
some people that weren't overlyconfrontational, and it was.
You had to be, you had to walkin.
(27:12):
You have to talk to thesepeople.
You know if, if they're a rapevictim, you have to talk to them
.
You need to get thisinformation out of them.
You, you can't be shy aboutdoing that, um, and and you've
got to you've also got to beconsiderate and, you know um
compassionate when you're doingit as well, um, but you have to
face these things as a policeofficer.
(27:34):
So, yeah, that's probably oneof the main things I would say
You've got to be able to handleconfrontation and you've got to
be able to do it.
Once you do it for a while, itwill become second nature.
If you look at my personalitybecause they did personality
tests in the police and I wasI'm an influential sort of
(27:55):
person, um, but it was funnywhen they were actually doing it
and then they did some roleplays about situations and the
sergeant who'd known me for avery long time and he said, well
, he said none of you actuallysit in the dominant um thing.
But he said, schultz, I wantyou to act in the dominant thing
.
He said this said Schultz, Iwant you to act in the dominant
thing.
He said this isn't yourpersonality, but I've seen you
do it a hundred times throughyour career.
(28:16):
Because you were a sergeant,you had to make sure you laid
down the law and all that sortof stuff, and I never really
kind of realized or thoughtabout it that way.
So I think confrontation isdefinitely the main one For
people wanting to join thepolice.
Do it.
It was the best thing I everdid in my life.
It, you know, even though, likeyou know, I mean I've talked
(28:39):
about some you know shit thingsand all that about coming out
after and all that, but I tellyou what I have got stories till
the end of half and beyond itis.
It was some of the best fun Ihad in my life.
Um, you know, we got paid to doit, I concur sorry I go.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Well, yeah, no, that's, that's okay.
I was just gonna say and that'sprobably, that was probably the
glitch, the um.
We're having some internetissues again, um, but people say
to me oh you've, but you youwent through and you're out, so
you probably wouldn't recommend.
It's like no, I'll never say noto someone.
Don't join.
It'll be join, but be aware ofthe beast that policing is, be
(29:22):
aware of the impact it's goingto have on you.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yes, yes, definitely.
Um, I said you've got tounderstand you have to be
involved.
It's a lifestyle.
Policing is not a job, it's alifestyle.
You've got to do it for theright reasons and you've got to
(29:50):
give it 100% because if youdon't, you'll fall behind very
quickly and you'll probablybecome even more traumatized.
I think by the end it and theother the other important thing
for anybody wanting to join youare not going to save the world.
You will save.
Be happy with saving those fewthat you can save and help.
Don't go in there thinkingyou're going to change the world
, because it just won't happenyeah, very true.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Um and uh, talking about embracing the lifestyle,
if you're married, probably getdivorced before you get one.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
I can definitely vouch for that mate.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
All right, look what I might do.
We've spoken about a lot ofthings and I just want to do you
want to give another plug foryour and Damo's podcast and
where people can find it?
Yeah, mate.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah.
So basically, damo and I Ithink we started about the same
time and it's called TwoOrdinary Cops.
The reason we call ourselvesordinary?
Because we're nothing out ofthe normal policing.
You know, we tell our storiesand all that sort of thing, but
we're nothing special.
We were cops like the men andwomen out there today doing the
job, um, and there's there's farbetter cops than what we were.
(30:56):
There's far better leaders thanwhat we were, and that's why we
called ourselves ordinary,because we never really wanted
to talk up.
You know we didn't.
We don't think we're anythingspecial, we just did the job and
we loved the job.
Um, and we love the funnystories, um, because people love
the funny stories.
So if you want to listen to,we've got everything on there
from we talk about ptsd, uh, wetalk about leadership, uh.
(31:19):
We talk about, um, funnystories.
Uh, they're one of the mostpopular ones and there are some
funny ones, like that one I toldearlier.
Um, uh, we, yeah, we talk aboutspecialist roles, what it's
like moving from a detective um,you know, in and out of
detectives and playing clothesand and back into, back into, um
, you know, uh, frontlinepolicing, um, yeah, and we talk
(31:41):
about the college as well, whatit's like going through the
college.
So if you want to join thepolice force, have a listen to
our first episode, because itruns through what the college
life is like and what ourexperiences were, and then the
next episode is once we just gotout on the road.
So we talk about some of thehorrific incidents we've been to
(32:01):
.
We talk about our worst jobs,which was very difficult for
both of us to talk about.
They're the ones that haunt ustoday.
So if you really want to get agood understanding, then have a
listen to Two Ordinary Cops youcan.
If you search Two Ordinary Copsjust on the internet, it's
twoordinarycopscom and thatwould lead you to the website.
(32:24):
Otherwise, you can go on ourFacebook page.
If you look up Two OrdinaryCops, we're there.
If you want to email us, it'scontactus at twoordinarycopscom.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
So yeah, and my pod role also has a link to the
podcast on both Spotify and theApple one, whatever it is.
Yeah, Apple iTunes I'msubscribed to you guys so people
can find it there.
Awesome, yeah, something likethat, and there will be a link
(32:56):
in the bottom as well.
Alright, look what I might dobefore we finish up one of the
things hopefully I'm going toget Damo on in the next couple
of weeks as well to have a chatto him to tell some stories
about you, yep and I should havetold more about him.
I'll miss the boat you didn'tthink of that, did you?
(33:18):
You know, um, what I'll do isI'll leave the last comment to
you, okay um, look in.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
In saying that I was, I was just going to touch on it
something we spoke about offair I think it was when we um,
before we started the recordingand um, basically us doing this
podcast.
Uh, you reached out because yousaw us on the thin blue line um
, you know, and said you know,would you be happy about getting
on?
And then I spoke to you on thephone I, we talk about the thin
(33:45):
blue line.
Yes, it is a thin blue line,but it's bloody strong.
You know, it doesn't matter whatjurisdiction you come from, it
doesn't matter which country youcome from.
You will understand and you'vegot a camaraderie that never
goes away.
So, if you want to join thepolice, that that's what it is.
It's a lifestyle and you knowyou've got comrades, so to speak
, that um, and they will stickup for you.
(34:06):
We always used to sit there andthere was one cop at one stage
and, uh, he's sitting there andgo.
Yeah, he might be a retard, buthe's our retard, you know what
I mean.
He's one of us and, um, andwe'll always stick up for him it
really is like a big family.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
It's like when everyone says, oh, you know, I'm
gonna get you.
It's like, well, yeah, but whatabout my 10 000 brothers and
sisters that are behind me?
You know, know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
That's exactly right.
Yeah, what is that?
Bob Rennie says it's a longblue arm.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
It is.
It is and it really is aworthwhile.
I think from an altruisticpoint of view it's a worthwhile
calling and it's a job that youcan get immense pride and
feeling of doing something good.
It has its shit moments andthat sort of thing, but you know
(34:57):
.
All right, look, I will leaveit there.
Sheltzie, thanks for coming on,and to everyone else, thank you
for listening to Behind the ThinBlue Line.
Look, if you're a current orpast police officer and you'd
like to tell your story or talkabout what you do and what
you've done, then please emailme at whisperintheshadowspodcast
(35:18):
at gmailcom.
I will catch you next time,hopefully with Shelty's other
half, damo.
Thank you and goodbye, see ya.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
(35:39):
In the next episode we'll againexplore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
(36:01):
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
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