May 27, 2024 • 40 mins
Every career path has its own set of stories and secrets, but few are as inherently riveting as those from behind the badge. In our latest podcast, we sit down with Paul, a seasoned former Omaha Police Officer and undercover narcotics officer, who shares the gripping chronicles of his law enforcement life. His book "Ram One" is a testament to the rollercoaster ride of emotions and adrenaline he experienced, and he's not holding back any details. From humorous pranks between colleagues to the intense psychological warfare of undercover operations, Paul paints a vivid picture of a profession that's as unpredictable as it is structured.
The camaraderie of the force is a theme that threads through our conversation with Paul. It’s not all high-speed chases and tense stand-offs; there’s a shared bond that only those who’ve walked the thin blue line can truly understand. Paul recounts his first foray into the gritty underworld of narcotics, the strategic intricacies that go into maintaining a cover story, and the close calls that shaped his impressive career. His journey from a rookie with dreams influenced by his father's restaurant business to an expert in covert procedures is a compelling narrative of adaptation and dedication.
Our dialogue extends an open hand to those who've donned the uniform, inviting them to join the discussion and share their unique perspectives. For listeners, this episode promises a rare glimpse into the complex realm of law enforcement—a chance to comprehend the sacrifice and resolve needed to protect and serve. As we explore Paul's stories, we gain not just an understanding but an appreciation for the multifaceted lives of those who uphold the law, and the weight they carry long after the badge comes off.
Paul's book Ram One can be found on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Ram-One-Stories-Undercover-Breaking/dp/B0CXZPBNM8
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
(01:30):
All right, welcome to Behind theBlue Line, a podcast where I
explore the human side ofpolicing.
Thank you for joining me again.
I'm Jason Somerville and I wasa Queensland police officer for
14 years and as well as that, Ispent two years working
undercover.
Now you've been listening tothe stories of Michael Bates, my
alter ego of my time undercover.
Well, I've decided that it'stime we heard from other cops,
(01:52):
other undercover cops and othergeneral policing to tell their
stories, who was rather a formerpolice officer and a former
undercover police officer basedin the Omaha Police Force in
Nebraska, the USA.
Rather, he's also a publishedauthor of his book Ram One.
(02:14):
Good afternoon there, paul.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I'm doing great, jason, how about yourself.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Mate, I am fantastic For anyone watching and
listening.
It's 7.30 in the morning hereand 4.30 on yesterday in the
States, so I'm happy to be awake.
I'll put it that way.
Look, thanks for agreeing tojoin the podcast and for
agreeing to chat about yourgeneral policing and your
undercover work.
Now, just before we go anyfurther, your book.
(02:41):
Tell us a little bit about thatand where people can find it
your book.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Tell us a little bit about that and where people can
find it.
Yeah, the book's titled ram one.
Uh, you'll find on amazon andbasically it's just a book about
my career working undercoverand being on the SWAT team and
the normal stuff that cops dobefore you get to those
positions.
Kind of had a crazy career andI figured I'd put it on paper
sounds good.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Um, I, I think most cops have a crazy, crazy career.
If we're being honest, how longwere you in the police for 23
years full time.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I currently went back and I've been part time for
about a year working to train anacademy in the firearms range.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Okay, how old were you when you joined?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I was 29 when I went through the academy.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Okay, so you worked prior to becoming a police
officer.
You had an understanding ofwhat life was like.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, which I think makes makes way better cops than
a 21 year old who doesn'tdoesn't have an understanding
about life and uh takes thosecalls trying to tell people how
to lead their lives when theyreally don't know how to lead
their own yeah, guilty, um,because that's what it was like
as a 21 year old going out andtalking to some 45 year old who,
(03:52):
uh, they're going.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
What do you know, son , you're right, yeah, this is
very true.
All right, so you, you'recurrently going back part-time.
Um, what does that involve?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I've been lucky enough to get to go out to the
training academy and work withnew recruits and I took the
career that I had and I addedthat to the training that we do
out there to try to give themthe most realistic scenarios we
can, as opposed to just standardbasics that they have to cover.
In addition to that, I work onthe patrol rifle range for the
(04:26):
current officers to getrecertified once a year.
Firearms was one of my bigbackgrounds.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yep, okay, so you have both sidearms and rifles.
Your police carry both.
That is correct, for, I guess,comparison here in Australia um,
I know there were some carswhen I was in in the job that
had the ruger mini 14s in them,but I think they ended up being
(04:53):
taken out and, um, mainly, uh,everyday general duties, police
carried just their sidearm,which is now a glock.
Um, so there's a, there's asmall difference there.
What did you want to be whenyou were growing up as a kid and
why?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
It's interesting, I never really even thought about
it.
I was such a weird aloof kidthat I was just so into sports I
didn't think about it.
My dad owned a couple ofrestaurants and I started
working in the restaurants whenI was 11, bussing tables and
then into the kitchen andlearning the aspects of the
restaurant.
So my fall semester and myfirst semester in college, I was
taking business classes becauseI simply knew my soul that I'd
(05:35):
run one of my dad's restaurantsand thankfully, about six months
later he sold all three of themand I was.
I was set free from that uhforced career choice.
Can you cook?
I can, and I love cooking forpeople.
It's just a restaurant businessis a hard business to be in
(05:55):
yeah, no it, especially now.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I would have thought over the last five years it
would have been uh, it's tougheverywhere that sort of business
, all right.
So you, you, you thought youwere going to to uh, follow your
father's footsteps.
You went to business school.
Did you finish your businessqualification?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
no, I, as soon as you sold the restaurants, I
immediately changed my degree tocriminal justice, uh, which I
completed why did you do that?
Speaker 1 (06:19):
what was the impetus behind doing that?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
uh, one of my best friend's dads was the was the
chief of federal probation inthe state of Nebraska and I was
just like, well, maybe that's agood career.
What's federal probation?
If an inmate goes to prison andgets released, they're on
parole.
When they leave In the states,you can get probation which is
(06:42):
ahead of going to jail or prison.
It's very similar to parole,but it's pre-incarceration.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Okay, so it's like a good behavior bond almost.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Okay, cool, sorry, I interrupted you.
You were going to say somethingelse.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But even making that change in the schooling, I
didn't even think much about it.
I was like, well, okay, I'llchange to this and I just
bebopped through college youknow the university, like I'm
just living.
For the day I played Americanfootball in college and
literally that was my main focus.
And when I got towards the endof where I almost had my degree,
(07:23):
I met my wife, who was alsostudying the same program.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And after after she graduated, she got hired by the
police department.
Almost right away I went into ajob in corrections, which I did
not like.
For about two years Afterstruggling there, I moved on to
a place for troubled youth,which is where I'd worked when I
was younger.
I loved that job, but it justwasn't a career path, I thought.
(07:52):
And after my wife was anofficer for several years, I
would go to crew parties withher or you know social events
and listening to all those copsthat she worked with tell these
stories and I'm like, man, I gotto get some of that.
I just knew there was an itch Ihad that.
I'm like I have to do somethingdifferent.
(08:13):
You know, the place I workedwas a good place with a good
mission, but I just knew Iwasn't fulfilling, you know, a
career choice for me.
So after she had five years on,I got hired and never looked
back.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Would you class yourself as an altruistic person
?
Do you think you?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
know I guess somewhat .
You know I was interesting.
I have my degrees in criminaljustice but my master's degrees
in human services and some of mycop friends used to say that I
was the bleeding heart of thecrew.
Because of that background Ithink it served me well later.
But you know, I believe in thegood of man and trying to be
(08:53):
part of that good in society andyeah, so I guess somewhat.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, look, because I have a theory that
intrinsically, the majority ofpeople that go into policing,
whether they understand it ornot, have a strong altruistic
streak in them, that theybelieve in man, as you said,
they believe in humanity, theybelieve in the good, in people,
and they go there to try andfind that and keep that safe.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, you know.
And again it gets kind of funnybecause almost every, at least
in the States, the running jokeis that you ask a brand-new cop
why he did the job and they willsay, well, I wanted to help
people.
And then you get later on inthe career and it's like, eh,
they joke about that.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
But I do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And it is still true.
Cops will say oh, oh, that'sall bs, but that's because
they're they're, they're,they're hurting themselves to,
to keep to keep the the bad thatthey see out.
You know they toughen theirouter shell and try to act all
tough and it's like but you know, when they retire and you talk
to them, they still did the jobbecause they want to help people
, they want to keep, keep goodpeople away from the evil.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yeah, no, that's very true.
You've touched on a couple ofthings and I'll come back and
explore them.
I guess so your wife's become apolice officer.
You've done some other things.
You've applied.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
How did that journey then go, from when you applied
to starting, and what was yourfirst sort of, you know, posting
shift, whatever, however itworks you know, in our
department we have to work thethe streets, you know, driving a
just a patrol cruiser for threeyears minimum before you can
try to do anything else.
I spent four total years inpatrol and then I was given
(10:42):
opportunity to go to a specialoperations unit, a gang
suppression unit, at our, at oursecret location, and so I spent
four years excuse me, fouryears in the gang unit.
And man, you want to talk aboutthe wild west?
You know, for again, I workedthe hardest precinct in omaha
(11:06):
when, when I worked at so I wasused to some of the chaos.
But you know we I wasn't doingdope deals, we weren't doing
search warrants and patrol, butwe got to the gang unit and
jason, we were serving dozens ofsearch warrants a month and
doing dope buys and rips andchasing down hardened gang
members through the projects youknow, housing project units,
(11:27):
and it was crazy amounts ofovertime and but it was, yeah,
it was.
When I stepped into that I'mlike, wow, this is, uh, this is
police in here it's sort ofthere goes I did it to help
people to go.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Hmm, who am I?
Yeah, how long is your policeAcademy training program?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Uh, it's 21 weeks, generally speaking.
I went through an abbreviatedAcademy for whatever reason,
whatever monetary reason, butit's 21 weeks.
And then you'd have about 21more weeks in the field training
uh section for your, yourpaired up with uh, you know uh,
uh know a pro, and you, you dothe ride along for for another
(12:07):
21 weeks so, and then after thatyour single officers or your
double officer patrols it justdepends on which precinct you're
in and what the staffing levelis.
I went to a precinct that waswas busy and even though a bunch
of us on my first crew wererookies, a lot of us were in two
(12:28):
officer cars or baker cars, wecall it Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Now just, I guess, for clarification.
So in Australia you join astate police force or service
and they can post you anywherein the state.
Queensland's very big I've beenright up to the pointy part and
as far west as you can go aswell, and we're talking, you
(12:54):
know, three and a half thousandkilometers north and about 1,800
kilometers west from where Isit at the moment, so you can
get sent anywhere.
Does that work the same withI'm assuming you were with the
state police or were you withthe county police?
(13:15):
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
No, see, the US, we've got all sorts of police
officers, police forces.
So I worked for the city ofOmaha and even though I was
certified for the state ofNebraska as a law enforcement
officer police forces, yep.
So I worked for the city ofOmaha and even though I was I
was certified for the state ofNebraska as a law enforcement
officer my jurisdiction wassimply the city of Omaha.
We also have state officers,like you, we have city officers,
(13:38):
we have officers, we havedeputies that work for the
county.
And then, you know, becauseOmaha is just its own city,
there's many small cities andtowns around the city I work in
that have departments as well.
So we have many more layers oflaw enforcement here, it seems,
in addition to our federalagencies as well.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
So you could.
If you went to a precinct, youwould stay there for a long
period of time, or they'd moveyou around precincts within the
city, or how does that work?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
You know.
We had a really good system, orwe still do.
We do a shift bid every sixmonths and you bid on the shift
you're going to work, you knowwhat time of day and you bid on
which precinct you want to workin.
And, as the new guys, sometimesyou get bumped around because
you don't have enough seniority.
But there's guys who haveworked in the same precinct for
(14:33):
20 plus years just because theychose to do it, and you're not
forced to try to get promoted.
You can stay as just the lowestlevel of officer if you choose
to do so, or you can go throughthe promotional rank and then
you get moved around when thathappens.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Okay, so you've joined the police.
You did your four years inpatrol.
You then went to the gang unitor the specialist unit.
How long into your career didyou go undercover, and how did
that come about?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
So, four years in patrol, four years in gang, one
year in a in the generaldetective's bureau wearing a
shirt and tie, which was theleast enjoyable part of my
career, um, and then, rightafter that, I went into the
narcotics unit, uh, where Ispent the last 14 years of my
career working undercover.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
So I guess it sounds like talking to other people
from North America in generalthat undercover is treated
differently.
You will work both undercoverand normal policing in the same
week sometimes.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, and especially for our department.
Just because someone's innarcotics doesn't mean that
they're undercover, right,they're plainclothes.
I did direct undercover dealsfor that for the lion share that
14 years.
But additionally I was I wasattached to our department's
SWAT team for 16 years,obviously longer than narcotics.
(16:04):
So when I would do any of mySWAT work, anything that I did
outside of our secret office, soto speak, if I was in around
other police officers, then Ijust had a balaclava cover in my
face because I was dual tasked,yeah, and so I worked
undercover 14 years, but itwasn't like I was, you know,
(16:26):
living in some house for 14years by myself, or that I was
with the Hells Angels, or that Iwas with, you know, the Mexican
cartel.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah, um, my undercover status and I maintain
my anonymity, um, outside ofthat building that I worked in,
um, as best I could during thattime frame okay, so I'll come to
some of the stories and and um,you know there are some really
(16:59):
good stories for for those thatare listening that I've seen I
just want to just drop back intoyour book.
When did you write it and whydid you write it?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
What's crazy is this coming weekend was the one-year
anniversary when I startedwriting the book.
I started writing May of 2023,and I handed in my original
manuscript in November 115,000words, way too long and my
editor chopped it up and got itback to me in December.
(17:37):
Then, for the next untilFebruary, we went back and forth
, changing this, fixing that,basically just reshuffling where
stuff was going to be, and thebook came out in March of this
year.
So it was a nine-month,10-month process, which is
pretty fast.
But I will say this is thatinsomnia can be a writer's best
(17:59):
friend Type from 10 pm to 8 ambecause you can't sleep.
You know, it just really flowedfast.
I thought it would take muchlonger to do it.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
No, that's good.
Is there anything they cut outthat you wish they hadn't?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Oh there's so much.
I did the best I could to tellstories about a lot of the
people that I worked with.
You know things that I wasinvolved in, but other officers
and some of the finite detailsmy editor, who's a wonderful
lady, you know she says theperson in Australia doesn't
really care about that becausethey don't know that person.
You know him, that's importantto lady.
You know she says the person inAustralia doesn't really care
about that because they don'tknow that person.
(18:39):
You know him, that's importantto you.
So a lot of the stories got cutdown.
Some of the specific storiesthat were cut out were just more
drug cases or more SWAToperations.
Yeah, I just wanted to know toanswer that.
I guess there were some of thejoking stuff we did when I was a
patrol officer where we messedwith each other.
(19:00):
We played pranks on each otherduring our shift.
There were some really, reallygood ones.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
What's the best prank you ever played or had played
on you?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
You know we used to do this dumb thing If guys were
on a call, we'd sneak up,because all the cars had the
same key.
It didn't matter.
We drove Ford Crown Vix.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I know where this is going.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Pull up to a guy that's on a busy call.
He put down his back passengerwindow or back driver window
Previously.
You have to have a handful ofbroken glass from an automobile
accident and you try to get apiece that's maybe this big
that's still intact.
You throw the loose pieces onthe back of the seat, you put a
rock or a brick in the back seatand you take the piece that's
(19:43):
this big and you stuff it in thein the window ceiling and he
walks out and he thinks someonethrew a brick through his window
and, as dumb as that is to sitback a block away and watch him.
you know it just cut the uh,they cut the tensions, you know,
because it is such a hard job,as you well know yeah and it's
harder these days, maybe notbecause crime is harder or more
(20:08):
violent, it's just it's harderbecause cops probably across the
world but I know in americathey're not allowed to do that
kind of stuff, they're notallowed to vent and let off
steam and that's all that stuffis when you're messing around
with your buddies and you haveto let off steam.
Because yesterday you took acall where a guy put a shotgun
(20:28):
in his mouth and pulled thetrigger and his eyelid was on
the refrigerator when you walkedin and you're supposed to do a
report and go on about yourbusiness and then have it not
affect you.
Are you kidding me?
And we can't?
And you're supposed to do areport and go on about your
business and then have it notaffect you.
Are you kidding me?
And we can't vent and we can'tlaugh and have fun.
So some of those fun things weretaken away.
But, man, when I was still indoing that, the crews that I run
(20:49):
, we did it all the time.
It was a riot.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Well, maybe not that Usually, if there was ever so,
we have a lot of schools andthings in one of the areas that
are actually just abouteverywhere I worked.
But on night work sometimesit's not as busy as other nights
and if there's a job at aschool, the car will get tasked
and they'll pull up.
And sometimes they get out andforget and leave their keys in
(21:18):
the car, or um, there's always aspare set of keys.
So we get back to the station,get the spare set of keys, come
back, jump in the car, move thecar around the corner and then
sit around the other corner andwait for them to come out and go
.
Where's the car?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
oh yeah, we've done that as well.
They said I was the thing withthe the ford crown vic.
They all had the same keys.
I bet you I could okay, I could, I could have pulled up to a.
Oh yeah, we've done that aswell.
That was the thing with theFord Crown Vic.
They all had the same keys.
I bet you I could have pulledup to a Ford Crown Vic in
Chicago and jumped in and droveaway.
They were all the same, allkeyed.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
The same, not very smart and, like you said, it's
juvenile, it's a bit of fun.
People will look at it and go,oh, that's just silly, you
should be more responsible.
But it's a release valve, it'sa way of putting laughter and
fun into a job where, as you'vesaid, you've seen something that
(22:10):
most people will never see intheir entire life.
People will never see in theirentire life and you do that on a
regular basis and if you don'tlaugh and you don't have fun,
the effects of it are going tobe much greater.
And I want to come back to that.
Just tell us about your book,where you can get the book,
where people who are listeningcan get the book, and the
(22:31):
details will be in the bottom inthe description underneath this
video.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Ram1 is the easiest locator on Amazoncom.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Okay, that's pretty simple.
All right, so just getting backto your journey through the
police, you've gone to theNarcotics of Drug Squad, as we
call it.
How did you get into doingundercover?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Man, jason, I was so excited to do undercover.
I was even in the gang unit.
I was wanting to do it.
Why I wouldn't allow it?
Why were you?
why, you know, my biologicalfather was a drug dealer.
Okay, he got caught up in awiretap with a whole bunch of
heroin, six ounces of H, and youknow that kind of you know.
(23:17):
Of course my mom moved on fromhim and my stepdad is who raised
me and who I took my name afterit.
Just always, it was alwaysbothersome to me.
I don't know if that's why Igot into that.
I suppose the reason becauseit's it's it's harder than just
using an informant to buy dope.
You know, it's a little morechallenging, a little more
dangerous.
Maybe I suppose I was kind ofan adrenaline junkie, you know.
(23:43):
So maybe that was the reason Inever really put my finger on it
a hundred percent.
And even in the book I don'texplain it very well as to why I
wanted to do it so badly.
But man, I wanted to do it andthat's what I did for a long
time do you take risks doing itlike?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
do you do other things outside of policing and
in your general life that peoplewould consider generally risky?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
you know I bungee jumped once, shoot, when I'm
back in college.
But you know I'm yeah, I'm nota giant risk taker like that,
you know it.
Uh, I suppose by the time I gotinto the career and was was
doing the things we were doing,it's like, well, these are
enough risks, I guess you know,yeah, I, I.
You know, I don't considermyself one of those adrenaline
junkies.
You know, I watch some of thesevideos now that where these
(24:30):
people do the extreme stuff ofjumping off a cliff with one of
those capes and or the the, thewing suits and walking, they're
riding their mountain bike on aon a two foot wide Ridge you
know, camelback Ridge on amountain, and I'm like man, if
you fall off you're dead.
Um, that's the.
Watching those videos scares me, but for me, knocking in a door
(24:52):
on a on a homicide suspect wasjust like going to lunch.
That that never bothered me.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
I guess that was it.
If you fall off the cliff, likeif something doesn't work on
the wingsuit or something,you're dead.
I would have thought that inthe middle of a drug buy, if you
say the wrong thing or thewrong person walks in, the same
thing could happen, but youdon't equate the dangers of both
as being the same you know Ihad, uh, mine was more of just
(25:21):
an excitement level and the onlyreal trepidation I had doing
the undercover deals was thatwere they going to believe my
story?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
you know, because of my SWAT background and the
extensive training we had and itsounds mean or it sounds
bravado or sounds callous, Iguess, but every deal I went
into I had a plan to kill theguy if it went bad.
Okay, and that's just silly,and I had, I believe I had the
means to do it and so I didn'tworry about that part of it.
(25:53):
I worried about was he going tocall my bluff?
And then, you know, say, hey,you're a cop and walk out the
door or you know whatever, andthen I would just be, I'd be a
failure at not getting the deal.
I really didn't have a lot ofapprehension of doing the deal.
My first undercover deal was,you know, I wasn't, I wasn't
there yet but, um, that that wasquite, a quite a scary deal, to
(26:14):
be really honest.
What?
Speaker 1 (26:15):
happened there.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
You know.
So I had no training.
I went to a two-week basicnarcotics school when I was
still in the gang unit, becausein the gang unit we did so much
drug work.
But when I got to narcoticsthere wasn't any type of
undercover school to go to, or Ihadn't seen one yet, and I was
just, you know, telling all mycrewmates, hey, I want to do an
(26:37):
undercover deal.
And so, lo and behold, mylongtime partner and friend,
edie.
She had an informant, a Mexicanguy who didn't speak English
and he wanted to sell guns.
I'm like, well, I'll buy guns.
So I go do this gun deal with aguy named Jesus.
I figured it was safe, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
The.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Hispanic version of Jesus.
I figured it was safe.
You know the Hispanic version.
Yeah, I forgot.
It's gonna be good to go um.
He didn't, he didn't die on across yes, correct.
Um, so he didn't speak English.
Uh, I spoke very little Spanishand the Spanish I spoke was to
tell someone how to get on theground to put your hand on your
back, which wasn't to help me ina dope deal.
The informant sat in the backseat of my car, a little
(27:20):
two-door Blazer, and anyways, wepull up and he gets in the car
and this is a tiny little car toour.
If it was two big guys like me,our shoulders would almost be
touching in the front seats.
And as soon as he got in, he isbeating sweat, he is nervous.
As he got in, he is, he'sbeating sweat, he is nervous.
He keeps looking out thepassenger window like the raid
team's coming, and I'm trying totell him hey, listen, calm down
(27:44):
, you know tranquilo.
And the informant is tellinghim to calm down female
informant.
And so he hands me the gun andit's just a shitty gun, which
isn't the crazy part.
The crazy part was, as soon ashe handed me the gun, he put his
right hand back in under his,under his coat.
He had his hand on a shoulder,he had a shoulder rig and I've
(28:04):
held a gun a million times and Iknow what it's like to have a
shoulder rig.
I know it's like where the gunis, how you hold it.
Now it fills your hand.
And he had his right hand on apistol the whole time and I'm to
his, to his left.
Um well, my left hand is downby my left thigh, which is on my
glock 30, and so here it is,that moment from uh, good, bad,
(28:25):
and the ugly with the musicplaying.
Who's going to move first?
yeah and he keeps looking outthe window like the raid team is
coming and it's like calm downon.
The gun was a piece of crap,like I said.
And so the informer was like,well, hey, paul's looking for
dope too.
You know, he needs a new plugfor meth and he was kind of
nervous about that.
(28:45):
He sold me a gun.
I don't know why he'd be nervousabout meth, but so with his
left hand, he never took hisright hand out of his coat.
With his left hand he gives me,you know, a couple grams of
dope.
I keep my left hand where it'sat.
With my right hand I take thegun, I take the dope and I pay
him.
And it was this weird ballet ofhe's only using his left hand,
(29:08):
I'm only using my right hand.
Our other hands were on ourguns and he keeps looking out
the window like the raid team'scoming and I'm thinking, you
know, if he pulls the gun out,I'm just going to smash him with
my right arm, yeah, lean intohim and then shoot him with my
left hand.
Um, and it just was one of thoseman it was.
It was 10 minutes of tension.
(29:28):
I don't know it even took thatlong, but it took about 10
minutes.
Um he's.
Then he's trying to get me touse to try the dope.
You know that one's easy to getout of and I got out of it and
he believed me and so no bigdeal, the deal's fine.
He leaves and again.
So that's not that crazy right.
But a week later Edie asked meto buy another gun from him.
(29:53):
And I'm like, hell yeah, I'm in, I love this, I want to buy
guns and dope and other gun fromhim.
And I'm like, hell yeah, I'm in, I love this, I want to buy
guns and dope.
And she says, well, paul, I'mnot going to let you agree to it
until I give you someinformation.
I'm like, okay, what's the scoop?
She's like, well, we got someinformation on Jesus that we
didn't know last week.
Like, what's that?
Like you'll, two people in acartel hit about three, four
(30:18):
weeks ago.
And so we know he's a murderer.
We're not sure if homicide isgoing to be able to pin the case
on him.
So we want to continue to buydope and guns off him to give
him the best sentence we can getif we can't prove these murders
.
So I said, okay, that's cool,at least I know who he is now.
But I bought dope and guns fromhim a couple more times and they
were successful.
And then, unfortunately, hislife kind of kicks you in the
gut.
Sometimes I had an injury onthe SWAT team which required
(30:40):
surgery during that time frame.
So I was pulled away from thecase, obviously because I
couldn't do it on a limited duty, and consequently Edie took
that case to the end andarrested probably 15 people and
she won Officer of the Year forthe case because it was a
fantastic investigation and Igot to watch it from the
(31:02):
sidelines, which was kind of abummer, but I was happy for her.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
You're involved at the beginning, did they?
Did they pin the murder, themurders, on him?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
they never.
They never did.
No, he did.
I think jesus did eight or tenyears and he was deported.
It was interesting.
I actually did some sleuth workand I found his facebook page
down in mexico and, assuminghe's staying down there, um fair
enough, um, now before.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
so before we we started talking about, um, uh,
that particular story.
You were talking about how yougot into being a UC, a two-week
course, and then bang off, yougo, you do your first buy, so to
speak.
The transfer to narcotics wasthe expectation that, going to
(31:48):
narcotics, you would be doingmore UC work.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Well, I was hoping that was going to be the plan,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Okay, but it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't advertised
in the job.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah, no.
And so I did that basic twoweek course when I was still in
the gang unit and then I did, Idid some deals and then the
school came open and I went to a.
I went to an undercover schooland then I did a follow-up
advanced undercover school.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
How long were the courses?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
They were both a week long, you know, so it's nothing
crazy.
I tried and tried to get to dosome of the big federal, you
know, two-month undercovertraining courses but that was
never accepted.
I don't know if it worked out,but you just kind of learned on
the job.
You know, there were some otherguys in our, in our department,
who had worked undercover and Iwould pick their brain on how
they did what they did.
(32:37):
You know how they avoidedcertain things.
And um, and I fully admit, boy,my first couple of years I was
not very good, to be honest.
You know, I had some successfuldeals but I did dumb things or
said dumb things.
Um, I tried to be someone Ireally wasn't and you know
telling this giant longfabricated lie as to who I was.
(32:58):
And I soon learned that it waseasier to be me and it was
easier to tell the truth, metell 90 truth and a little bit
of lie, because you remember thetruth.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
And.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
I was way more successful the last 12 years
than I was the first two years.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Did you use covert names or did you use your real
name?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I used my first name and a covert last name and I
used a nickname on the street.
And again, that was kind of thething of trying to be somewhat
truthful, to remember certainthings.
You know, I used a variation mybirthday.
That was easy and a funny,quick story.
Um, so I, on my, on myundercover id, my, my state
(33:48):
driver's license, I used anaddress where I used to live
when I was younger, and no bigdeal.
How is that ever going to comeback and affect me?
I started buying dope from thisfemale and we only knew her by
her first name and some of theother investigators at my
offsite.
They finally found her in trueidentity.
(34:08):
It's like, okay, cool, this iswho it is.
Lo and behold, her address onher driver's license was the
address I used on my driver'slicense.
Her mother was two residentsremoved from my mom and dad at
the same house, and so justthink if, for somehow I would
have been dumb enough to sayhere's my license, here's who I
am and here's my address.
(34:30):
I didn't.
But how many guys get to buydope from someone who lived in a
house where they lived in whenthey were younger, you know?
yeah, not many, it was just acrazy coincidence, crazy
coincidence it also goes to showhow the best planning sometimes
can.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
There's nothing is going to stop coincidence, it's
just correct.
Can't plan for it.
It's one of those things.
Um, yeah, that's, that's veryfreaky, all right.
So, uh, and as you say, look,one of the things that we got
taught is that, um, the best liehas a large amount of truth in
(35:08):
it.
It's the little details,because, you remember, I use
Michael Bates, people sayMichael now, and I still turn
around Michael became or Ibecame Michael became me or I
became Michael, like one of thetwo, and it's just one of those
things that you know, you just I, just that name just sticks
(35:28):
with me.
So, 14 years, uh, you'remarried.
At the time, the operations thatwe did were you had a bunch of
targets.
You would go out and you knowyou get a safe house and you
would do the jobs and you woulddo that operation.
Then you come back and then yougo do operations.
It sounds like you were doingpiecemeal operations small by
(35:49):
bus over long periods, buy-bustsover long periods of time, or
small buys over long periods oftime while doing other things.
Was there ever an operationwhere you went?
I've got to do this, I've gotto be someone for three months.
Move out of home.
You know the whole setup readyto go.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
You know, I never had that opportunity Did you want
that opportunity.
I thought about it and then Iwent back to thinking you know
what I'm going to do, what Iwant to do anyways, I wanted to
try to intentionally put myfamily first.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
And I really wouldn't have had that opportunity to do
that and I guess I'm glad Ididn't have had that opportunity
to do that.
Um, and I guess I'm I guess I'mglad I didn't have that
opportunity.
The uh, I was a task forceofficer with the with our bureau
of alcohol, tobacco andfirearms and they have guys that
do that yeah but I don'tbelieve my department would have
even allowed me to do it.
I know some local ucs um, keeptheir names out of it who did
(36:46):
exactly that.
Um, they worked for the fbi asinformant and they traveled the
country and they'd be gone twomonths here, two months there, a
week here, a week there and theFBI would insert them into
ongoing investigations already.
But I never did that and he wasa super undercover.
He's a good friend and, again,I don't believe that my
(37:10):
department would ever allow meto do that or anybody else.
It's just not what they're intoyep, no, that that's.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
That's fair enough.
When you first joined thepolice, did people tell you you
look like a police officer?
Yes yeah, um, when you wereworking in the the gang squad,
did people tell you you looklike a police officer.
Could they tell you you were apolice officer?
Yes, yeah, did that worry youwhen you became, when you
(37:36):
started working undercover?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
It didn't worry me that they would.
It would worry me that I wouldjust bump into somebody that I'd
already arrested, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Did that happen?
What was the possibility ofthat happening?
Probably pretty good.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
I mean we arrested lots and lots of people.
You know, um, did that happen?
What was the possibility ofthat happening?
Probably pretty good, becausewe arrested lots and lots of
people.
I mean, we were in the gang andwe put hundreds of people away
a year.
It was, it was a free-for-alland, you know, the hunting was
good.
We we had really aggressiveprosecutors that, excuse me at
the time, both state and federal, and we were we were bumping up
people to no end, um, and youknow the other.
(38:13):
The other issue, jason, is thatbecause I didn't do it to the
level you did as far as thebackstop, you know, I had an id
that would.
That was a legitimate id and Ihad an undercover vehicle that
that didn't come back toanything, but I would still have
to go to a city pump to get gas.
So I would go to the mostobscure city pumps I could to
(38:36):
get gas and I still have to goto court occasionally.
And that was one of the drivingforces for me to try to push
every case I did undercover, asopposed to hey, I'll go
undercover with this guy and useinformants for these people.
I tried to push everythingundercover because then I didn't
have to go to court.
People wouldn't fight anundercover case they rarely
(38:57):
would fight it.
So my need to go to thecourthouse would be to get an
arrest warrant signed or asearch warrant signed, and we
had the ability to get a hold ofa judge who's a duty judge and
do that in off hours if weneeded to yeah because my
biggest fear was walking throughthe courthouse and you don't
like people in suits oruh, just all the criminals.
(39:19):
I mean just there's hundredsand hundreds of criminals
walking in and out and I have togo through the magnetometers,
like they do, and I'm wearing agun and the deputies that the
deputies that work themagnetometers know that I'm
undercover cop and they'll tryto wave me through.
And all these criminals arewatching me get waved through
and I'm like, so I would scoutit out and then try to look down
(39:40):
the hallway and when there'snobody waiting in line, then I'd
scout them out in the hallwayto try to go through, so people
wouldn't see me walk themthrough and not getting checked.
It's not a great setup, to bebrutally honest.
I have another partner who's anATF, who's a fed, and they did
everything completely different.
It was way better backstop thanwhat we did, you know, but we
(40:01):
rolled with the punches, I guess.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Thank you for joining me on Behind the Thin Blue Line
, where I have conversationswith current and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'llagain explore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
(40:24):
an episode.
So you never miss an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
(01:30):
All right, welcome to Behind theBlue Line, a podcast where I
explore the human side ofpolicing.
Thank you for joining me again.
I'm Jason Somerville and I wasa Queensland police officer for
14 years and as well as that, Ispent two years working
undercover.
Now you've been listening tothe stories of Michael Bates, my
alter ego of my time undercover.
Well, I've decided that it'stime we heard from other cops,
(01:52):
other undercover cops and othergeneral policing to tell their
stories, who was rather a formerpolice officer and a former
undercover police officer basedin the Omaha Police Force in
Nebraska, the USA.
Rather, he's also a publishedauthor of his book Ram One.
(02:14):
Good afternoon there, paul.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I'm doing great, jason, how about yourself.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Mate, I am fantastic For anyone watching and
listening.
It's 7.30 in the morning hereand 4.30 on yesterday in the
States, so I'm happy to be awake.
I'll put it that way.
Look, thanks for agreeing tojoin the podcast and for
agreeing to chat about yourgeneral policing and your
undercover work.
Now, just before we go anyfurther, your book.
(02:41):
Tell us a little bit about thatand where people can find it
your book.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Tell us a little bit about that and where people can
find it.
Yeah, the book's titled ram one.
Uh, you'll find on amazon andbasically it's just a book about
my career working undercoverand being on the SWAT team and
the normal stuff that cops dobefore you get to those
positions.
Kind of had a crazy career andI figured I'd put it on paper
sounds good.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Um, I, I think most cops have a crazy, crazy career.
If we're being honest, how longwere you in the police for 23
years full time.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I currently went back and I've been part time for
about a year working to train anacademy in the firearms range.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Okay, how old were you when you joined?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I was 29 when I went through the academy.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Okay, so you worked prior to becoming a police
officer.
You had an understanding ofwhat life was like.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, which I think makes makes way better cops than
a 21 year old who doesn'tdoesn't have an understanding
about life and uh takes thosecalls trying to tell people how
to lead their lives when theyreally don't know how to lead
their own yeah, guilty, um,because that's what it was like
as a 21 year old going out andtalking to some 45 year old who,
(03:52):
uh, they're going.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
What do you know, son , you're right, yeah, this is
very true.
All right, so you, you'recurrently going back part-time.
Um, what does that involve?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I've been lucky enough to get to go out to the
training academy and work withnew recruits and I took the
career that I had and I addedthat to the training that we do
out there to try to give themthe most realistic scenarios we
can, as opposed to just standardbasics that they have to cover.
In addition to that, I work onthe patrol rifle range for the
(04:26):
current officers to getrecertified once a year.
Firearms was one of my bigbackgrounds.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yep, okay, so you have both sidearms and rifles.
Your police carry both.
That is correct, for, I guess,comparison here in Australia um,
I know there were some carswhen I was in in the job that
had the ruger mini 14s in them,but I think they ended up being
(04:53):
taken out and, um, mainly, uh,everyday general duties, police
carried just their sidearm,which is now a glock.
Um, so there's a, there's asmall difference there.
What did you want to be whenyou were growing up as a kid and
why?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
It's interesting, I never really even thought about
it.
I was such a weird aloof kidthat I was just so into sports I
didn't think about it.
My dad owned a couple ofrestaurants and I started
working in the restaurants whenI was 11, bussing tables and
then into the kitchen andlearning the aspects of the
restaurant.
So my fall semester and myfirst semester in college, I was
taking business classes becauseI simply knew my soul that I'd
(05:35):
run one of my dad's restaurantsand thankfully, about six months
later he sold all three of themand I was.
I was set free from that uhforced career choice.
Can you cook?
I can, and I love cooking forpeople.
It's just a restaurant businessis a hard business to be in
(05:55):
yeah, no it, especially now.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I would have thought over the last five years it
would have been uh, it's tougheverywhere that sort of business
, all right.
So you, you, you thought youwere going to to uh, follow your
father's footsteps.
You went to business school.
Did you finish your businessqualification?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
no, I, as soon as you sold the restaurants, I
immediately changed my degree tocriminal justice, uh, which I
completed why did you do that?
Speaker 1 (06:19):
what was the impetus behind doing that?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
uh, one of my best friend's dads was the was the
chief of federal probation inthe state of Nebraska and I was
just like, well, maybe that's agood career.
What's federal probation?
If an inmate goes to prison andgets released, they're on
parole.
When they leave In the states,you can get probation which is
(06:42):
ahead of going to jail or prison.
It's very similar to parole,but it's pre-incarceration.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Okay, so it's like a good behavior bond almost.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Okay, cool, sorry, I interrupted you.
You were going to say somethingelse.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
But even making that change in the schooling, I
didn't even think much about it.
I was like, well, okay, I'llchange to this and I just
bebopped through college youknow the university, like I'm
just living.
For the day I played Americanfootball in college and
literally that was my main focus.
And when I got towards the endof where I almost had my degree,
(07:23):
I met my wife, who was alsostudying the same program.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And after after she graduated, she got hired by the
police department.
Almost right away I went into ajob in corrections, which I did
not like.
For about two years Afterstruggling there, I moved on to
a place for troubled youth,which is where I'd worked when I
was younger.
I loved that job, but it justwasn't a career path, I thought.
(07:52):
And after my wife was anofficer for several years, I
would go to crew parties withher or you know social events
and listening to all those copsthat she worked with tell these
stories and I'm like, man, I gotto get some of that.
I just knew there was an itch Ihad that.
I'm like I have to do somethingdifferent.
(08:13):
You know, the place I workedwas a good place with a good
mission, but I just knew Iwasn't fulfilling, you know, a
career choice for me.
So after she had five years on,I got hired and never looked
back.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Would you class yourself as an altruistic person
?
Do you think you?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
know I guess somewhat .
You know I was interesting.
I have my degrees in criminaljustice but my master's degrees
in human services and some of mycop friends used to say that I
was the bleeding heart of thecrew.
Because of that background Ithink it served me well later.
But you know, I believe in thegood of man and trying to be
(08:53):
part of that good in society andyeah, so I guess somewhat.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, look, because I have a theory that
intrinsically, the majority ofpeople that go into policing,
whether they understand it ornot, have a strong altruistic
streak in them, that theybelieve in man, as you said,
they believe in humanity, theybelieve in the good, in people,
and they go there to try andfind that and keep that safe.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, you know.
And again it gets kind of funnybecause almost every, at least
in the States, the running jokeis that you ask a brand-new cop
why he did the job and they willsay, well, I wanted to help
people.
And then you get later on inthe career and it's like, eh,
they joke about that.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
But I do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And it is still true.
Cops will say oh, oh, that'sall bs, but that's because
they're they're, they're,they're hurting themselves to,
to keep to keep the the bad thatthey see out.
You know they toughen theirouter shell and try to act all
tough and it's like but you know, when they retire and you talk
to them, they still did the jobbecause they want to help people
, they want to keep, keep goodpeople away from the evil.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yeah, no, that's very true.
You've touched on a couple ofthings and I'll come back and
explore them.
I guess so your wife's become apolice officer.
You've done some other things.
You've applied.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
How did that journey then go, from when you applied
to starting, and what was yourfirst sort of, you know, posting
shift, whatever, however itworks you know, in our
department we have to work thethe streets, you know, driving a
just a patrol cruiser for threeyears minimum before you can
try to do anything else.
I spent four total years inpatrol and then I was given
(10:42):
opportunity to go to a specialoperations unit, a gang
suppression unit, at our, at oursecret location, and so I spent
four years excuse me, fouryears in the gang unit.
And man, you want to talk aboutthe wild west?
You know, for again, I workedthe hardest precinct in omaha
(11:06):
when, when I worked at so I wasused to some of the chaos.
But you know we I wasn't doingdope deals, we weren't doing
search warrants and patrol, butwe got to the gang unit and
jason, we were serving dozens ofsearch warrants a month and
doing dope buys and rips andchasing down hardened gang
members through the projects youknow, housing project units,
(11:27):
and it was crazy amounts ofovertime and but it was, yeah,
it was.
When I stepped into that I'mlike, wow, this is, uh, this is
police in here it's sort ofthere goes I did it to help
people to go.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Hmm, who am I?
Yeah, how long is your policeAcademy training program?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Uh, it's 21 weeks, generally speaking.
I went through an abbreviatedAcademy for whatever reason,
whatever monetary reason, butit's 21 weeks.
And then you'd have about 21more weeks in the field training
uh section for your, yourpaired up with uh, you know uh,
uh know a pro, and you, you dothe ride along for for another
(12:07):
21 weeks so, and then after thatyour single officers or your
double officer patrols it justdepends on which precinct you're
in and what the staffing levelis.
I went to a precinct that waswas busy and even though a bunch
of us on my first crew wererookies, a lot of us were in two
(12:28):
officer cars or baker cars, wecall it Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Now just, I guess, for clarification.
So in Australia you join astate police force or service
and they can post you anywherein the state.
Queensland's very big I've beenright up to the pointy part and
as far west as you can go aswell, and we're talking, you
(12:54):
know, three and a half thousandkilometers north and about 1,800
kilometers west from where Isit at the moment, so you can
get sent anywhere.
Does that work the same withI'm assuming you were with the
state police or were you withthe county police?
(13:15):
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
No, see, the US, we've got all sorts of police
officers, police forces.
So I worked for the city ofOmaha and even though I was
certified for the state ofNebraska as a law enforcement
officer police forces, yep.
So I worked for the city ofOmaha and even though I was I
was certified for the state ofNebraska as a law enforcement
officer my jurisdiction wassimply the city of Omaha.
We also have state officers,like you, we have city officers,
(13:38):
we have officers, we havedeputies that work for the
county.
And then, you know, becauseOmaha is just its own city,
there's many small cities andtowns around the city I work in
that have departments as well.
So we have many more layers oflaw enforcement here, it seems,
in addition to our federalagencies as well.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
So you could.
If you went to a precinct, youwould stay there for a long
period of time, or they'd moveyou around precincts within the
city, or how does that work?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
You know.
We had a really good system, orwe still do.
We do a shift bid every sixmonths and you bid on the shift
you're going to work, you knowwhat time of day and you bid on
which precinct you want to workin.
And, as the new guys, sometimesyou get bumped around because
you don't have enough seniority.
But there's guys who haveworked in the same precinct for
(14:33):
20 plus years just because theychose to do it, and you're not
forced to try to get promoted.
You can stay as just the lowestlevel of officer if you choose
to do so, or you can go throughthe promotional rank and then
you get moved around when thathappens.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Okay, so you've joined the police.
You did your four years inpatrol.
You then went to the gang unitor the specialist unit.
How long into your career didyou go undercover, and how did
that come about?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
So, four years in patrol, four years in gang, one
year in a in the generaldetective's bureau wearing a
shirt and tie, which was theleast enjoyable part of my
career, um, and then, rightafter that, I went into the
narcotics unit, uh, where Ispent the last 14 years of my
career working undercover.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
So I guess it sounds like talking to other people
from North America in generalthat undercover is treated
differently.
You will work both undercoverand normal policing in the same
week sometimes.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, and especially for our department.
Just because someone's innarcotics doesn't mean that
they're undercover, right,they're plainclothes.
I did direct undercover dealsfor that for the lion share that
14 years.
But additionally I was I wasattached to our department's
SWAT team for 16 years,obviously longer than narcotics.
(16:04):
So when I would do any of mySWAT work, anything that I did
outside of our secret office, soto speak, if I was in around
other police officers, then Ijust had a balaclava cover in my
face because I was dual tasked,yeah, and so I worked
undercover 14 years, but itwasn't like I was, you know,
(16:26):
living in some house for 14years by myself, or that I was
with the Hells Angels, or that Iwas with, you know, the Mexican
cartel.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah, um, my undercover status and I maintain
my anonymity, um, outside ofthat building that I worked in,
um, as best I could during thattime frame okay, so I'll come to
some of the stories and and um,you know there are some really
(16:59):
good stories for for those thatare listening that I've seen I
just want to just drop back intoyour book.
When did you write it and whydid you write it?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
What's crazy is this coming weekend was the one-year
anniversary when I startedwriting the book.
I started writing May of 2023,and I handed in my original
manuscript in November 115,000words, way too long and my
editor chopped it up and got itback to me in December.
(17:37):
Then, for the next untilFebruary, we went back and forth
, changing this, fixing that,basically just reshuffling where
stuff was going to be, and thebook came out in March of this
year.
So it was a nine-month,10-month process, which is
pretty fast.
But I will say this is thatinsomnia can be a writer's best
(17:59):
friend Type from 10 pm to 8 ambecause you can't sleep.
You know, it just really flowedfast.
I thought it would take muchlonger to do it.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
No, that's good.
Is there anything they cut outthat you wish they hadn't?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Oh there's so much.
I did the best I could to tellstories about a lot of the
people that I worked with.
You know things that I wasinvolved in, but other officers
and some of the finite detailsmy editor, who's a wonderful
lady, you know she says theperson in Australia doesn't
really care about that becausethey don't know that person.
You know him, that's importantto lady.
You know she says the person inAustralia doesn't really care
about that because they don'tknow that person.
(18:39):
You know him, that's importantto you.
So a lot of the stories got cutdown.
Some of the specific storiesthat were cut out were just more
drug cases or more SWAToperations.
Yeah, I just wanted to know toanswer that.
I guess there were some of thejoking stuff we did when I was a
patrol officer where we messedwith each other.
(19:00):
We played pranks on each otherduring our shift.
There were some really, reallygood ones.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
What's the best prank you ever played or had played
on you?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
You know we used to do this dumb thing If guys were
on a call, we'd sneak up,because all the cars had the
same key.
It didn't matter.
We drove Ford Crown Vix.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I know where this is going.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Pull up to a guy that's on a busy call.
He put down his back passengerwindow or back driver window
Previously.
You have to have a handful ofbroken glass from an automobile
accident and you try to get apiece that's maybe this big
that's still intact.
You throw the loose pieces onthe back of the seat, you put a
rock or a brick in the back seatand you take the piece that's
(19:43):
this big and you stuff it in thein the window ceiling and he
walks out and he thinks someonethrew a brick through his window
and, as dumb as that is to sitback a block away and watch him.
you know it just cut the uh,they cut the tensions, you know,
because it is such a hard job,as you well know yeah and it's
harder these days, maybe notbecause crime is harder or more
(20:08):
violent, it's just it's harderbecause cops probably across the
world but I know in americathey're not allowed to do that
kind of stuff, they're notallowed to vent and let off
steam and that's all that stuffis when you're messing around
with your buddies and you haveto let off steam.
Because yesterday you took acall where a guy put a shotgun
(20:28):
in his mouth and pulled thetrigger and his eyelid was on
the refrigerator when you walkedin and you're supposed to do a
report and go on about yourbusiness and then have it not
affect you.
Are you kidding me?
And we can't?
And you're supposed to do areport and go on about your
business and then have it notaffect you.
Are you kidding me?
And we can't vent and we can'tlaugh and have fun.
So some of those fun things weretaken away.
But, man, when I was still indoing that, the crews that I run
(20:49):
, we did it all the time.
It was a riot.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Well, maybe not that Usually, if there was ever so,
we have a lot of schools andthings in one of the areas that
are actually just abouteverywhere I worked.
But on night work sometimesit's not as busy as other nights
and if there's a job at aschool, the car will get tasked
and they'll pull up.
And sometimes they get out andforget and leave their keys in
(21:18):
the car, or um, there's always aspare set of keys.
So we get back to the station,get the spare set of keys, come
back, jump in the car, move thecar around the corner and then
sit around the other corner andwait for them to come out and go
.
Where's the car?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
oh yeah, we've done that as well.
They said I was the thing withthe the ford crown vic.
They all had the same keys.
I bet you I could okay, I could, I could have pulled up to a.
Oh yeah, we've done that aswell.
That was the thing with theFord Crown Vic.
They all had the same keys.
I bet you I could have pulledup to a Ford Crown Vic in
Chicago and jumped in and droveaway.
They were all the same, allkeyed.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
The same, not very smart and, like you said, it's
juvenile, it's a bit of fun.
People will look at it and go,oh, that's just silly, you
should be more responsible.
But it's a release valve, it'sa way of putting laughter and
fun into a job where, as you'vesaid, you've seen something that
(22:10):
most people will never see intheir entire life.
People will never see in theirentire life and you do that on a
regular basis and if you don'tlaugh and you don't have fun,
the effects of it are going tobe much greater.
And I want to come back to that.
Just tell us about your book,where you can get the book,
where people who are listeningcan get the book, and the
(22:31):
details will be in the bottom inthe description underneath this
video.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Ram1 is the easiest locator on Amazoncom.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Okay, that's pretty simple.
All right, so just getting backto your journey through the
police, you've gone to theNarcotics of Drug Squad, as we
call it.
How did you get into doingundercover?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Man, jason, I was so excited to do undercover.
I was even in the gang unit.
I was wanting to do it.
Why I wouldn't allow it?
Why were you?
why, you know, my biologicalfather was a drug dealer.
Okay, he got caught up in awiretap with a whole bunch of
heroin, six ounces of H, and youknow that kind of you know.
(23:17):
Of course my mom moved on fromhim and my stepdad is who raised
me and who I took my name afterit.
Just always, it was alwaysbothersome to me.
I don't know if that's why Igot into that.
I suppose the reason becauseit's it's it's harder than just
using an informant to buy dope.
You know, it's a little morechallenging, a little more
dangerous.
Maybe I suppose I was kind ofan adrenaline junkie, you know.
(23:43):
So maybe that was the reason Inever really put my finger on it
a hundred percent.
And even in the book I don'texplain it very well as to why I
wanted to do it so badly.
But man, I wanted to do it andthat's what I did for a long
time do you take risks doing itlike?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
do you do other things outside of policing and
in your general life that peoplewould consider generally risky?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
you know I bungee jumped once, shoot, when I'm
back in college.
But you know I'm yeah, I'm nota giant risk taker like that,
you know it.
Uh, I suppose by the time I gotinto the career and was was
doing the things we were doing,it's like, well, these are
enough risks, I guess you know,yeah, I, I.
You know, I don't considermyself one of those adrenaline
junkies.
You know, I watch some of thesevideos now that where these
(24:30):
people do the extreme stuff ofjumping off a cliff with one of
those capes and or the the, thewing suits and walking, they're
riding their mountain bike on aon a two foot wide Ridge you
know, camelback Ridge on amountain, and I'm like man, if
you fall off you're dead.
Um, that's the.
Watching those videos scares me, but for me, knocking in a door
(24:52):
on a on a homicide suspect wasjust like going to lunch.
That that never bothered me.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
I guess that was it.
If you fall off the cliff, likeif something doesn't work on
the wingsuit or something,you're dead.
I would have thought that inthe middle of a drug buy, if you
say the wrong thing or thewrong person walks in, the same
thing could happen, but youdon't equate the dangers of both
as being the same you know Ihad, uh, mine was more of just
(25:21):
an excitement level and the onlyreal trepidation I had doing
the undercover deals was thatwere they going to believe my
story?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
you know, because of my SWAT background and the
extensive training we had and itsounds mean or it sounds
bravado or sounds callous, Iguess, but every deal I went
into I had a plan to kill theguy if it went bad.
Okay, and that's just silly,and I had, I believe I had the
means to do it and so I didn'tworry about that part of it.
(25:53):
I worried about was he going tocall my bluff?
And then, you know, say, hey,you're a cop and walk out the
door or you know whatever, andthen I would just be, I'd be a
failure at not getting the deal.
I really didn't have a lot ofapprehension of doing the deal.
My first undercover deal was,you know, I wasn't, I wasn't
there yet but, um, that that wasquite, a quite a scary deal, to
(26:14):
be really honest.
What?
Speaker 1 (26:15):
happened there.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
You know.
So I had no training.
I went to a two-week basicnarcotics school when I was
still in the gang unit, becausein the gang unit we did so much
drug work.
But when I got to narcoticsthere wasn't any type of
undercover school to go to, or Ihadn't seen one yet, and I was
just, you know, telling all mycrewmates, hey, I want to do an
(26:37):
undercover deal.
And so, lo and behold, mylongtime partner and friend,
edie.
She had an informant, a Mexicanguy who didn't speak English
and he wanted to sell guns.
I'm like, well, I'll buy guns.
So I go do this gun deal with aguy named Jesus.
I figured it was safe, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
The.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Hispanic version of Jesus.
I figured it was safe.
You know the Hispanic version.
Yeah, I forgot.
It's gonna be good to go um.
He didn't, he didn't die on across yes, correct.
Um, so he didn't speak English.
Uh, I spoke very little Spanishand the Spanish I spoke was to
tell someone how to get on theground to put your hand on your
back, which wasn't to help me ina dope deal.
The informant sat in the backseat of my car, a little
(27:20):
two-door Blazer, and anyways, wepull up and he gets in the car
and this is a tiny little car toour.
If it was two big guys like me,our shoulders would almost be
touching in the front seats.
And as soon as he got in, he isbeating sweat, he is nervous.
As he got in, he is, he'sbeating sweat, he is nervous.
He keeps looking out thepassenger window like the raid
team's coming, and I'm trying totell him hey, listen, calm down
(27:44):
, you know tranquilo.
And the informant is tellinghim to calm down female
informant.
And so he hands me the gun andit's just a shitty gun, which
isn't the crazy part.
The crazy part was, as soon ashe handed me the gun, he put his
right hand back in under his,under his coat.
He had his hand on a shoulder,he had a shoulder rig and I've
(28:04):
held a gun a million times and Iknow what it's like to have a
shoulder rig.
I know it's like where the gunis, how you hold it.
Now it fills your hand.
And he had his right hand on apistol the whole time and I'm to
his, to his left.
Um well, my left hand is downby my left thigh, which is on my
glock 30, and so here it is,that moment from uh, good, bad,
(28:25):
and the ugly with the musicplaying.
Who's going to move first?
yeah and he keeps looking outthe window like the raid team is
coming and it's like calm downon.
The gun was a piece of crap,like I said.
And so the informer was like,well, hey, paul's looking for
dope too.
You know, he needs a new plugfor meth and he was kind of
nervous about that.
(28:45):
He sold me a gun.
I don't know why he'd be nervousabout meth, but so with his
left hand, he never took hisright hand out of his coat.
With his left hand he gives me,you know, a couple grams of
dope.
I keep my left hand where it'sat.
With my right hand I take thegun, I take the dope and I pay
him.
And it was this weird ballet ofhe's only using his left hand,
(29:08):
I'm only using my right hand.
Our other hands were on ourguns and he keeps looking out
the window like the raid team'scoming and I'm thinking, you
know, if he pulls the gun out,I'm just going to smash him with
my right arm, yeah, lean intohim and then shoot him with my
left hand.
Um, and it just was one of thoseman it was.
It was 10 minutes of tension.
(29:28):
I don't know it even took thatlong, but it took about 10
minutes.
Um he's.
Then he's trying to get me touse to try the dope.
You know that one's easy to getout of and I got out of it and
he believed me and so no bigdeal, the deal's fine.
He leaves and again.
So that's not that crazy right.
But a week later Edie asked meto buy another gun from him.
(29:53):
And I'm like, hell yeah, I'm in, I love this, I want to buy
guns and dope and other gun fromhim.
And I'm like, hell yeah, I'm in, I love this, I want to buy
guns and dope.
And she says, well, paul, I'mnot going to let you agree to it
until I give you someinformation.
I'm like, okay, what's the scoop?
She's like, well, we got someinformation on Jesus that we
didn't know last week.
Like, what's that?
Like you'll, two people in acartel hit about three, four
(30:18):
weeks ago.
And so we know he's a murderer.
We're not sure if homicide isgoing to be able to pin the case
on him.
So we want to continue to buydope and guns off him to give
him the best sentence we can getif we can't prove these murders
.
So I said, okay, that's cool,at least I know who he is now.
But I bought dope and guns fromhim a couple more times and they
were successful.
And then, unfortunately, hislife kind of kicks you in the
gut.
Sometimes I had an injury onthe SWAT team which required
(30:40):
surgery during that time frame.
So I was pulled away from thecase, obviously because I
couldn't do it on a limited duty, and consequently Edie took
that case to the end andarrested probably 15 people and
she won Officer of the Year forthe case because it was a
fantastic investigation and Igot to watch it from the
(31:02):
sidelines, which was kind of abummer, but I was happy for her.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
You're involved at the beginning, did they?
Did they pin the murder, themurders, on him?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
they never.
They never did.
No, he did.
I think jesus did eight or tenyears and he was deported.
It was interesting.
I actually did some sleuth workand I found his facebook page
down in mexico and, assuminghe's staying down there, um fair
enough, um, now before.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
so before we we started talking about, um, uh,
that particular story.
You were talking about how yougot into being a UC, a two-week
course, and then bang off, yougo, you do your first buy, so to
speak.
The transfer to narcotics wasthe expectation that, going to
(31:48):
narcotics, you would be doingmore UC work.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Well, I was hoping that was going to be the plan,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Okay, but it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't advertised
in the job.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah, no.
And so I did that basic twoweek course when I was still in
the gang unit and then I did, Idid some deals and then the
school came open and I went to a.
I went to an undercover schooland then I did a follow-up
advanced undercover school.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
How long were the courses?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
They were both a week long, you know, so it's nothing
crazy.
I tried and tried to get to dosome of the big federal, you
know, two-month undercovertraining courses but that was
never accepted.
I don't know if it worked out,but you just kind of learned on
the job.
You know, there were some otherguys in our, in our department,
who had worked undercover and Iwould pick their brain on how
they did what they did.
(32:37):
You know how they avoidedcertain things.
And um, and I fully admit, boy,my first couple of years I was
not very good, to be honest.
You know, I had some successfuldeals but I did dumb things or
said dumb things.
Um, I tried to be someone Ireally wasn't and you know
telling this giant longfabricated lie as to who I was.
(32:58):
And I soon learned that it waseasier to be me and it was
easier to tell the truth, metell 90 truth and a little bit
of lie, because you remember thetruth.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
And.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
I was way more successful the last 12 years
than I was the first two years.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Did you use covert names or did you use your real
name?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I used my first name and a covert last name and I
used a nickname on the street.
And again, that was kind of thething of trying to be somewhat
truthful, to remember certainthings.
You know, I used a variation mybirthday.
That was easy and a funny,quick story.
Um, so I, on my, on myundercover id, my, my state
(33:48):
driver's license, I used anaddress where I used to live
when I was younger, and no bigdeal.
How is that ever going to comeback and affect me?
I started buying dope from thisfemale and we only knew her by
her first name and some of theother investigators at my
offsite.
They finally found her in trueidentity.
(34:08):
It's like, okay, cool, this iswho it is.
Lo and behold, her address onher driver's license was the
address I used on my driver'slicense.
Her mother was two residentsremoved from my mom and dad at
the same house, and so justthink if, for somehow I would
have been dumb enough to sayhere's my license, here's who I
am and here's my address.
(34:30):
I didn't.
But how many guys get to buydope from someone who lived in a
house where they lived in whenthey were younger, you know?
yeah, not many, it was just acrazy coincidence, crazy
coincidence it also goes to showhow the best planning sometimes
can.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
There's nothing is going to stop coincidence, it's
just correct.
Can't plan for it.
It's one of those things.
Um, yeah, that's, that's veryfreaky, all right.
So, uh, and as you say, look,one of the things that we got
taught is that, um, the best liehas a large amount of truth in
(35:08):
it.
It's the little details,because, you remember, I use
Michael Bates, people sayMichael now, and I still turn
around Michael became or Ibecame Michael became me or I
became Michael, like one of thetwo, and it's just one of those
things that you know, you just I, just that name just sticks
(35:28):
with me.
So, 14 years, uh, you'remarried.
At the time, the operations thatwe did were you had a bunch of
targets.
You would go out and you knowyou get a safe house and you
would do the jobs and you woulddo that operation.
Then you come back and then yougo do operations.
It sounds like you were doingpiecemeal operations small by
(35:49):
bus over long periods, buy-bustsover long periods of time, or
small buys over long periods oftime while doing other things.
Was there ever an operationwhere you went?
I've got to do this, I've gotto be someone for three months.
Move out of home.
You know the whole setup readyto go.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
You know, I never had that opportunity Did you want
that opportunity.
I thought about it and then Iwent back to thinking you know
what I'm going to do, what Iwant to do anyways, I wanted to
try to intentionally put myfamily first.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
And I really wouldn't have had that opportunity to do
that and I guess I'm glad Ididn't have had that opportunity
to do that.
Um, and I guess I'm I guess I'mglad I didn't have that
opportunity.
The uh, I was a task forceofficer with the with our bureau
of alcohol, tobacco andfirearms and they have guys that
do that yeah but I don'tbelieve my department would have
even allowed me to do it.
I know some local ucs um, keeptheir names out of it who did
(36:46):
exactly that.
Um, they worked for the fbi asinformant and they traveled the
country and they'd be gone twomonths here, two months there, a
week here, a week there and theFBI would insert them into
ongoing investigations already.
But I never did that and he wasa super undercover.
He's a good friend and, again,I don't believe that my
(37:10):
department would ever allow meto do that or anybody else.
It's just not what they're intoyep, no, that that's.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
That's fair enough.
When you first joined thepolice, did people tell you you
look like a police officer?
Yes yeah, um, when you wereworking in the the gang squad,
did people tell you you looklike a police officer.
Could they tell you you were apolice officer?
Yes, yeah, did that worry youwhen you became, when you
(37:36):
started working undercover?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
It didn't worry me that they would.
It would worry me that I wouldjust bump into somebody that I'd
already arrested, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Did that happen?
What was the possibility ofthat happening?
Probably pretty good.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
I mean we arrested lots and lots of people.
You know, um, did that happen?
What was the possibility ofthat happening?
Probably pretty good, becausewe arrested lots and lots of
people.
I mean, we were in the gang andwe put hundreds of people away
a year.
It was, it was a free-for-alland, you know, the hunting was
good.
We we had really aggressiveprosecutors that, excuse me at
the time, both state and federal, and we were we were bumping up
people to no end, um, and youknow the other.
(38:13):
The other issue, jason, is thatbecause I didn't do it to the
level you did as far as thebackstop, you know, I had an id
that would.
That was a legitimate id and Ihad an undercover vehicle that
that didn't come back toanything, but I would still have
to go to a city pump to get gas.
So I would go to the mostobscure city pumps I could to
(38:36):
get gas and I still have to goto court occasionally.
And that was one of the drivingforces for me to try to push
every case I did undercover, asopposed to hey, I'll go
undercover with this guy and useinformants for these people.
I tried to push everythingundercover because then I didn't
have to go to court.
People wouldn't fight anundercover case they rarely
(38:57):
would fight it.
So my need to go to thecourthouse would be to get an
arrest warrant signed or asearch warrant signed, and we
had the ability to get a hold ofa judge who's a duty judge and
do that in off hours if weneeded to yeah because my
biggest fear was walking throughthe courthouse and you don't
like people in suits oruh, just all the criminals.
(39:19):
I mean just there's hundredsand hundreds of criminals
walking in and out and I have togo through the magnetometers,
like they do, and I'm wearing agun and the deputies that the
deputies that work themagnetometers know that I'm
undercover cop and they'll tryto wave me through.
And all these criminals arewatching me get waved through
and I'm like, so I would scoutit out and then try to look down
(39:40):
the hallway and when there'snobody waiting in line, then I'd
scout them out in the hallwayto try to go through, so people
wouldn't see me walk themthrough and not getting checked.
It's not a great setup, to bebrutally honest.
I have another partner who's anATF, who's a fed, and they did
everything completely different.
It was way better backstop thanwhat we did, you know, but we
(40:01):
rolled with the punches, I guess.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Thank you for joining me on Behind the Thin Blue Line
, where I have conversationswith current and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'llagain explore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
(40:24):
an episode.
So you never miss an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
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