June 3, 2024 • 42 mins
Ever wondered what lingers in the shadows of undercover policing? Grasp the unvarnished truths as I guide you through the precarious dance of maintaining aliases and the waning allure for officers to delve into these high-risk roles. Amidst the backdrop of societal shifts and eroding prosecutorial vigor, we shine a light on the brave souls who navigate this dwindling frontier, revealing stories that underscore the steely dedication required to serve under the veil of secrecy. Listen as our guests, seasoned in the art of covert operations, recount the personal costs and the intricate ballet of living a life cloaked in another's identity.
Transitioning from the frontline to the sidelines carries its own set of heavy burdens. Step into the worn boots of a retired SWAT officer, sharing the weight of a career built on breaching doors and the poignant moment of hanging up the ram. Discover the journey from the adrenaline-fueled rush of special ops to the quieter, yet equally rich, practice of mentoring the next wave of law enforcers. Learn about the intricacies of police pensions and the subtle adjustments required when the uniform is set aside, and the badge is polished for the last time.
Peeling back the curtain further, we delve into the mental and emotional toll policing extracts—a currency of stress and trauma often paid in silence. Uncover the landscape of PTSD within the force, the critical need for support, and the courage it takes to confront the stigma surrounding vulnerability. The episode culminates with reflections on compassion's evolution in the beat, the grapple between personal identity and the roles officers are compelled to play, and the quiet relief that comes with shedding the responsibilities of constant control. Join us for candid disclosures that navigate the hidden corridors of life behind the thin blue line.
Paul's book Ram One can be found on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Ram-One-Stories-Undercover-Breaking/dp/B0CXZPBNM8
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
You don't like people in suits or uh, just all the
criminals.
I mean just there's hundreds andhundreds of criminals walking
in and out and I have to gothrough the magnetometers, like
they do, and I'm wearing a gunand the deputies that, the
deputies that work themagnetometers know that I'm
undercover cop and they'll tryto wave me through.
And all these criminals arewatching me get waved through
(01:46):
and I'm like, so I would scoutit out and then try to look down
the hallway and when there'snobody waiting in line, then I'd
scout them out in the hallwayto try to go through, so people
wouldn't see me walk themthrough and not getting checked.
It's not a great setup, to bebrutally honest.
I have another partner who wasan ATf, who's a fed, and they
(02:07):
did everything completelydifferent.
It was way better backstop thanwhat we did, you know, but
we're old with the punches, Iguess has the over your time
doing.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
It has the focus on I don't know if safety is the
right word, but the securityaround it changed, or is it?
It still the same way thatyou're talking now To me you're
talking.
It sounds like you're sayingit's not taking as seriously as
it should be.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
It is not.
It still is not.
But I also know this that theamount of guys or gals doing
undercover within our departmenthas really decreased.
The week that I retired I did apresentation to a state agency.
There was 500 cops and 500supposed narcotics officers in
(02:57):
attendance and I was polling thecrowd to see how many guys are
working undercover and in thatgroup of 500 who were working
direct undercover, and thatgroup of 500 had three people
raise their hand, which just wassurprising to me.
You know, and I got out at atime where the defund, the
police was high and I think justa lot of motivation around the
(03:17):
country, at least in the States.
Motivation around the countrywas why would we want to risk
our necks when prosecutorsaren't prosecuting to the 10th
degree and nobody seems to carewhat cops are doing as far as
doing good?
So I think a lot of the narcsare like why would I risk my
neck to do the extra one?
(03:38):
It really isn't going to make adifference anyways, and I think
it's a shame because I thinkthey do.
They do do better um cases ifit's undercover and I know they
have stronger cases, but uh, youknow it's not mine for me to
tell them what to do.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You know no, that's that's.
That's the point of this.
So you can say what peopleshould do and they'll never
listen to it.
Why did you get out?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
You know I had a long career on the SWAT team and I
was generally the ram guy and inmy career I rammed over a
thousand doors with a manual,just a manual breech ram.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Talk just for those of us who aren't from America
and who have never been in SWATwhat a ram guy is and what you
do and how you do it.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah.
So I'm holding a 60-pound tubeof steel with handles on it and
a faceplate.
I'm the battering ram that'sgoing to knock the door off the
hinges.
And up until the last couple ofyears we did mainly no-knock
search warts.
So that means every warrant wewent on, we rammed the door.
Now there's more of a push todo a knock and announce and a
(04:46):
lot of those times people cometo the door.
But in my 18 years of specialoperations between gang unit and
narcotics and on the SWAT team,I rammed over a thousand doors.
I mean, I just destroyed myshoulders and I got terrible
arthritis in my hands.
And so I was.
I was 51 and I was the oldestguy on the SWAT team and my body
(05:08):
was breaking down.
And I I really felt that I was.
I was on the prefaces of beinga detriment to the team as
opposed to um on the good side,because if I couldn't physically
do something, um, to help ateammate of mine, it was time to
go.
So as soon as I hit that momentof you know what I'm kind of
broke physically.
It's time to leave.
(05:29):
So I left the SWAT team and thenit was like six months later,
nine months later, that mylongtime supervisor.
He was my boss 18 of my 23years, dave Bianchi.
He was being forced out at a 30year mark and so I just retired
the same time that he retired.
So I left two years early.
25 is kind of when most peopleretire in the States, at least
(05:53):
in Omaha.
I left at 23 because Iphysically couldn't do the job.
I physically couldn't do SWATand I was kind of had run my
course on the undercover worldand I was like you know what,
that's just time to go.
Didn't want to get back to sitbehind a desk in the uniform no,
no, this guy, this guy doesn'twear a shirt and a tie.
(06:13):
I couldn't operate in the.
Even when I left I still wasn'tphysically I wouldn't have
passed a physical exam to to getback to full duty.
I had two rotator cuffsurgeries back to back and that
is just a debilitating surgery.
So I was still writing a deskfor my last five months just
pushing paper and assisting onthe backside and I'd had enough
(06:37):
of that.
It was time to go.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
When you left, did you have an idea of what you
were going to do afterwards, orit was.
I'm just going to leave and therest will work itself out.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
You know, my wife and I have a small training company
, a firearms training company,and I've done some motivational
speaking on like situationalawareness for for high school
kids.
Yep, um, I had no plans ofgoing back to the department
part-time.
In fact I said I would never doit, um, but when they created
this new position for retiredguys to run the range, I thought
, man, firearms is one of myloves.
Anyways, I can do that two,three days a week.
(07:09):
That's all.
It is just two or three days aweek and I was just kind of
killing time until my wiferetired and she retired three
weeks ago after 30 years.
So now we're both kind oflooking at the future of some
traveling and some things likethat.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
You should come out to Australia.
That's the place you should goNow as a police officer, you get
a pension, Is that right?
That's correct.
So you effectively get paid tobe retired.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yes, in the States we have for non-pension people,
there's what's called socialsecurity.
Yeah, but as police officers,because we have a pension, we
don't get social security.
So, yeah, my pension is basedon my input in my career.
Basically it's a livable wage,which is very nice.
(08:02):
You know to do that for as longas you do and to be in the mix
like that.
It's nice that you can have alivable wage for that career.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Is that forever or does it cut out after a certain
number of years?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
No, it's until you die.
You know, for cops it's usuallynot that long.
It seems like yeah,unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yes, that is very true, true, all right.
So, so you're out, you're doing.
You're doing this part-timework, um, doing you.
You enjoy it because of thefirearms.
What about the training part,with the the new people coming
through does?
Does that float your boat?
I probably enjoy that.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I probably enjoy that more than anything.
To be brutally honest, if Iwould have had enough guts, I
would have left narcotics twoyears before I did and went to
the academy to be an instructor.
Yes, why?
And it's because I just love.
I love the job and I love, Ilove training and I've got a.
I've got a motive of turning.
Whatever the scenario, whateverthe training modicum is that
(09:05):
time is adding the realism ofscenario-based training.
You know that was one thing wedid on SWAT.
A lot is, instead of just doingdoor clearing, let's add a
scenario to it that makes itmore realistic.
And I do the same things withthe recruits.
You know whether it's thefirearms aspect of it or whether
it's the tactics, or whetherit's room clearing or how to do
(09:27):
a traffic stop.
I play the bad guy on thetraffic stops and I know how to
be a bad guy because I was a badguy for a long time, and so the
whole search, searching the carfor drugs and all those things
I get dressed up like I used todress when I was undercover,
looking like a biker type, andso these raw recruits are coming
up to a door of this big dudewith the beard and a cut-off
(09:49):
sleeve shirt.
He looks like a biker and I'mplaying the part during their
academy traffic stops and Ithink it just takes it to
another level.
And again, this isn't about me,this is just about how to train
in a more realistic way.
You know lots of guys do it,but I absolutely enjoy trying to
train for the realism of whatthey're going to find on the
(10:11):
streets, you know, and to seethem be scared at the window in
a training scenario, it's likeokay, cool, because you're going
to be scared on the streetsyour first couple of traffic
stops.
You know you need to understandhow to work with that.
As opposed to them going up toa window on a traffic stop of
their standard academyinstructor who's wearing their
polo with their badge on theirshirt, you know, they know that
guy's not going to hurt them.
(10:33):
So that's why I enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, no, that's very true.
Training your background, orthey know your background, that
you've, you know, you've done,uh, you, what we call your
general duties, your uniformstuff, what you call what you
call patrol, um, the, the gangstuff, the narcotics, the SWAT,
the undercover, they, you, they,they know all of that about you
(10:58):
yeah, they come to know it.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Um, the first couple times we do scenarios with them,
we we've kind of left it blankso they don't really know who we
are.
We're just extra role players,um, but then we, as we're
teaching them, we start tellinghere's why I know these things.
You know, this is what I didfor for this length of time
what's the biggest question youget about the undercover work?
you know, I think the biggestone is are we?
(11:20):
Are you scared when you do it?
You know, like you askedearlier and earlier, are you
scared, and that wasn't reallysomething that gave me fear
necessarily, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
What about?
Do you have anyone come up toyou and say, hey, I'd really
like to be an undercover?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, there's young cops whowant to do it, but I've mentored
a few guys along the way.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
What advice do you give them?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
A lot of what I was just telling you.
You've got to tell mostly thetruth and you have to have three
steps ahead of them in yourplanning when they ask you
something and you have to sellit.
And I don't mean selling thefact that you've got this long
backdrop story of somethingthat's phony, but mostly what's
true.
You know, I had a truck that Idrove that looked like it was a
(12:07):
construction truck, right Poreand concrete kind of truck.
That was my undercover vehiclefor a long time and I didn't
just use the truck, I had allthe equipment in the truck and I
would have bid sheets on mydashboard.
And I had a guy come up to mywindow once who my informant was
going to endorse me to.
I found out later that he was aformer informant for a
(12:29):
different agency and his namewas Phil.
It's like hey, what do you do,paul?
I said I'm in, I'm in concretework.
He's like bullshit, you don'tdo concrete.
And so, because I had preplannedJason up on my dash or above
advisor yeah I pulled down a bidsheet, that I handed it to him
and I wrote that bid sheet thatday, had the date on it and the
address and it was my oldaddress.
So I know the address and Icould describe.
(12:50):
I could describe the driveway Iwas going to pour and all the
dimensions and I know a littlebit about concrete.
So I had all the, had thenumbers under the measurements
and the cost and the and the,the labor hours, and I handed
him the.
I handed him the, the bid sheet, and said F you, and he looks
at it for about a minute.
He's like, oh, I guess you dodo concrete.
And I'm like, yeah, don't geton my face, punk.
(13:11):
And I ended up buying dope fromhim a couple days later because
he believed my story.
And I think that's where someguys fall short, is that you
know, that was me the firstcouple times somebody asked me
what I did.
Oh, I'm a welder and I'm not.
I don't know about welding, um,and I could tell there's times
where they wouldn't believe meand so like I can't use that
story anymore because I'm not awelder, but I know concrete and
(13:32):
I know some construction.
So I just I let them know theyhave to kind of be backstopped
themselves, since our departmentdoesn't do it.
You know, have the, have someprops to come with you, have
some things they can see.
Um, I used to put pictures ofme and my buddies who aren't
cops on the on the sun visor ofmy car, or especially if they
were friends of mine that hadpassed away yeah um, because,
(13:55):
like there's a picture of thisguy and there's a picture of
someone else, you know they'rewearing construction outfits.
You know it just sold it.
You know that this is what I do.
Um, and that's when I gotbetter it's the little details.
Yeah, I looked like this big,burly biker.
I used to wear my HarleyDavidson shirts cut off and the
goatee was down to my bellybutton and I acted like a biker.
(14:17):
And I'm not a biker and a lotof the deals that I had that
failed.
My boss would say later I thinkyou scared the crap out of that
dude.
You know you look too mean.
He thinks you're going to beathim up or you're going to rip
him off.
And when I finally went to thatundercover school, the guy's
like yeah, you look too mean,dude, you're scaring people.
(14:37):
Change your look, you need tosmile more.
And so I went from the bikerlook to like a construction
worker.
Look.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And instead of being the tough guy, it was just a
dude.
You know, that was it.
Okay and that's what I pass onto these guys.
Is you got to just be the dude.
You got to be an everydaynobody, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yep, yep, what's the biggest?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
myth you think there is out there about undercover
Shoot, that we drive Ferrarisand eat lobster every day.
I don't know.
I mean, in our department theythink that you work at the
offsite, that it's, it's a, it'sa gold, gold paved road and and
you know, things are justawesome and they don't realize
that you're that you're diggingthrough trash with maggots in it
to get to look for things.
But as far as just theundercover itself, I don't know,
(15:22):
probably that you're going tothe barge and drinking all the
time and and hanging out withwith, you know, naked women,
kind of like your story yep,well, no, and I could.
I would like in some of the time, not all the time, but yeah
anyway, um, I I think maybe thebiggest myth is that it's maybe
that it's easy and it's it'salways glamorous and you know,
what they don't know is thatonce you're into those people,
(15:46):
into that world, man, my phonewas on 24-7.
Not that my phone was on myphone.
I was working my phone 24-7.
You know, if they're hittingyou up about something, even if
you're going to blow them off,you've got to somehow blow them
off and you know so.
It was a 24-7 job, and to be atdinner with your wife and your
(16:07):
daughter and have to be dealingwith stuff like that kind of
sucks.
But if I want that deal to go,then I still got to play the
part, even when I'm not working.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Well, was that probably the hardest part?
Or the most difficult part wasthat you know when you're out
and having to be on 24 7, buthave a life as well yeah, you
know.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And then obviously my wife was a, was a cop, and she
worked in narcotics for a coupleyears early in her career and
did a little bit of undercovernot very much at all, but a
little bit but so she knew therole.
Obviously, my daughter grew upme looking like this and
generally wearing jeans and ahearty t-shirt, and so we had,
we had code words that I've.
(16:50):
You know, if we were out inpublic and I should happen to
bump in or see someone that Ihad been dealing with or I'm
currently dealing with, we hadcode words set up hey, listen,
dad's got to go to work and youknow, squeeze your hand and just
walk away from them.
Um, and she was.
She was amazing, my daughter,when she rolled with the punches
.
You know she didn't tell otherpeople what her dad did, but
(17:10):
yeah, you know, so you had tokind of understand why dad
looked like an idiot for for forso long.
You know, yeah, like you know,I just look like a bum which is
always the way to go undetected,I guess.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, I, I guess.
I want to go back to somethingyou said when you were talking
about writing your book.
The fact that, um, you know,staying awake, um, not being
able to sleep, is good for whenyou want to write a book, why do
you think you, you, apart fromthe fact you were writing the
book I won't assume that thereason that you couldn't sleep
(17:48):
was because you wanted to writethe book.
I'm assuming that's somethingthat happened gradually over
time Do you think the job hasaffected you to that point to,
you know, not sleep properly?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Oh yeah, a hundred percent.
You know I've I've been ininsomnia, have suffered from
insomnia for numbers of years.
You know you again, as you wellknow.
You know it's a, it's a toughdeal and you know I, I ran for
so long, that entire 16 yearswhen I was on the SWAT team I
was undercover and, um, not onlywas I doing undercover work and
(18:25):
doing narc warrants and doingSWAT hits, you know there was
there was multiple days in a rowof working 18 hours a day and
there was times I would like Iwould sleep in my Suburban in
the parking lot, cause it'sthree in the morning.
I got to be there at six.
I might as well just sleep here.
Um, and constantly chasing yourtail, you know it.
Just that has an effect on thehuman body.
(18:47):
You know that the adrenalinedumps which you don't even feel
anymore.
They're still there, you justdon't feel them.
You know all the extra cortisolin your body, you know changes
your body chemistry and that youknow insomnia is one of the
root effects of that.
And you know gaining weightaround the midsection and yeah,
(19:07):
we can all relate to that yeah,you know it.
Uh, you know short temper,things like that.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
You know it's, it's, it's real have you spoken anyone
to anyone about those sorts ofthings?
As far as, like a counselor,yeah, well, well, anyone, it
doesn't have to be aprofessional, but no, have you
spoken to anyone about them?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
You know it's getting so much more open and it's so
much more accepted for lawenforcement and military guys
and gals to openly talk about.
Hey, you know they see someone.
I haven't seen anybodypersonally.
I've done a ton of talking withvery close friends and whether
they're a therapist or not, Ithink you're still getting
something out of it.
(19:48):
After my my officer in front ofa shooting where I killed that
guy, the department forces youto see a psychologist three or
four times before you come backto make sure you're ready to
come back.
And I that was.
You know those were goodsessions and I went back
voluntarily with him for threeor four more sessions about six
months later because you know Idon't think I had really
(20:10):
accepted the gravity of it.
I was trying to be too bravado,you know, and it was beneficial
.
And, like I stated earlierthat's a little bit of my
background before I became a copis the mental health field.
Yeah, so there's no shame inanybody, you know, talking to a
professional about that kind ofstuff and maybe I should look
(20:31):
into it.
You know, for the sleep part ofit.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
I don't know.
It's more a question that indoing this I've been discovering
more about PTSD and those sortsof things Generally.
Yeah, I'm the type of personlet's say I lose my job tomorrow
, I'll get another job on Mondaythat I'm the type of person
let's say I lose my job tomorrow, I'll get another job on Monday
.
That's just how it is.
You know, my partner kicks meout, I'll be fine.
My dog dies, I'll be upset, butyou know she'll stop snoring.
But the more you go through it,those things like those short
(20:58):
bursts of anger, the not beingable to sleep, the all those
sorts of things, you you look atthat and you go, okay, that's a
common thing.
And you talk to people and it'slike well, maybe there is a bit
of PTSD in there, maybe there's.
There are things that areaffecting me, that I don't
realize are affecting me,because for so long they were
just normal things yeah, youknow you're, you're right.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Um, I just, I just personally, and and this is just
Paul, the PTSD part of it Ihave a hard time accepting that
label only because I almost feeland it's not, but I almost feel
like it's reserved for themilitary people who I was never
in combat.
You know I was involved inshootings, but I was never in
(21:42):
combat.
There weren't bombs dropping onme.
You know, in combat thereweren't bombs dropping on me.
You know, and I I know that atleast here in the states,
sometimes that gets abused.
Um, the ptsd angle, andobviously if someone has ptsd
then I'll be your, I'll be yourbiggest supporter.
But here I, here we see somephony cases, or lots of phony
cases, and it's bothered me.
(22:03):
Um, if you wanted to call itptsb, well then, okay, tell me,
that's mine, that's fine, butit's almost like to me in my
heart.
That's reserved for themilitary guys who who are in
iraq and afghanistan and vietnam.
And you know, it's just, I feelashamed if I would accept that
label and sorry, what would youcall the stress?
Speaker 1 (22:26):
then you think the police deal with.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Some type of longevity career stress disorder
?
I guess you know.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
We could start a new acronym.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, you know, and again it goes back to like I
mentioned.
You know you're here atThanksgiving dinner and maybe
you're having a tiff with yourfamily members, but yesterday
you looked at a guy who put a 12gauge in his mouth and pulled
the trigger and his head's allover the wall yeah, and you're
supposed to now go outthanksgiving dinner tomorrow and
like it's no big deal, I don'teven think it's dealing with the
(22:59):
public.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
You can do that and then later in your shift you're
gonna be doing a traffic stropwith some young kid who's
decided to get stroppy becausethey want to defund the police,
and the natural response isdickhead.
You've got no idea what I justdid back in your box and that
gets you in trouble 100%.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
And I used to go back to my old high school every
spring and every fall and Iwould do a one class um with one
of my old instructors, whichwas which was great, and I would
, and they and it was basicallyjust an hour long session of Q
and a about about the job, andthey always want to know about
SWAT narcotics, obviously.
But I would flat out tell them.
(23:40):
The first things I would say islisten, I'll tell you
everything I can tell youlegally and something that's not
case sensitive.
I'm probably going to swear Isaid.
But one thing I'll tell you, ifyou have the question is why was
the cop who pulled me over anasshole?
And you know why?
Did you think that guy was acomplete jerk when you got
pulled over?
And so somebody will ask andit's like hey, listen, you have
(24:01):
no idea what that guy or galjust went through.
They could have just left asuicide scene.
They could have just left aninfant death scene or fatal
accident or a fire, or you namethe hundreds of things they left
in the last month that arebuilding in their soul.
And you're supposed to do itwith a smile and you're supposed
to do it right 100% of the time, every time, and not have any
(24:24):
faults.
And then you got the 16 yearold punk who is who's talking
smack and you snap at him and um, and whatever you do, and then
you get in trouble because nowit's on video yep yeah, so that
just all adds up 100 and so,yeah, you know it's.
Is that post-traumatic or isthat just, like I said, the kind
of a longevity thing thatbuilds up?
(24:45):
I believe that cops have it.
Um, they just sound like it's aweird thing.
Yeah, I don't have to label it,you know, because yeah to me
it's all just a military thing,and I love the guys in green and
um they're, they're my heroes,you know yep, no, that's fair
enough, just in regards to goingto schools.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
You've lived, I guess , the the whole defund, the
police thing and you know I'vebeen out of it.
I've seen some of the stuffhere.
It's it's, you know, not reallybig in australia.
We don't have that same, thatsame culture, I guess, of hating
police to the extent that theyhave in in in the states.
But I guess one of the thingsis do you think police are their
own worst enemies in the factthat they don't do enough of
(25:28):
explaining why something mighthave happened, why a response
was the way it was?
It's more nothing to see here.
We're just going to put up thebrick wall and you can yell and
shout that the fact that someoneabused you but we're not going
to explain it, we're not goingto do anything about it abused
you, but we're not going toexplain it, we're not going to
do anything about it, and thecommunity doesn't understand
enough what police go through toget to that point.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I think that the individual officers may not do a
good job.
I do believe that there's amovement amongst departments
across the country to say justwhat you're saying.
Hey, listen, it's a two-sidedstreet here and there's lots of
things that you just don't havea clue about.
You know, and your perceivedattention towards the cops as to
what they're doing and whythey're doing it, or your
perceived you know, let's callit what it is.
(26:20):
You know the perceived racismyou think is out there is phony
and the absolute lion's share ofcops that I've ever met across
the country.
You know, but we don't do agood job individually.
You know, but it's hard, youknow, if you go on a call and
the people are, you know, mfingyou and I don't know how you're
(26:45):
going to weave in.
Hey, listen, let me get on mysoapbox for a while and tell you
the day that I had.
You can do all the calm, gohome.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I don't think it's an individual's response to that.
I personally believe and lookpart of this whole concept of
talking to people like yourself,and hopefully more, is for
people to be able to see andunderstand what police go
through.
So the next time they have aninteraction with someone they
might not say that smart asscomment, they might not be a
(27:15):
dick yeah, I might not do thatbecause they don't.
They might have anunderstanding of what's going on
or what they may have seen orbeen to in the last day, week,
month, year, whatever.
And I guess from where I sit,the police when I say in general
the police department'smarketing are their own worst
(27:40):
enemies, in the sense that whensomething bad happens, it's
usually there's nothing to see.
Here there's no publiceducation about what it's
usually there's nothing to see.
Here there's no publiceducation about what it's really
like to be a police officer.
Now, the downside of that is,if you show people what it's
really like to be a policeofficer, people won't join.
But there has to be.
(28:00):
I just think there needs to bemore education about what police
deal with so there can beempathy from the people we serve
as well, and that's one of thethings I'm hoping to try and do
with this, but I think policeforces in general and police
departments in general probablylack the foresight to do that
(28:22):
over a very long period of time.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I agree, You're right and I applaud you for doing
this and I hope it is justoverwhelmingly successful and
that more people do podcasts,because you can only serve X
amount of people.
But you're right, the storiesneed to be out there and it's
interesting how even just thisinterview is evolving.
You know, and the thought ofyou know the cool undercover
stories, right, or whatever.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
The everyday cop, the stuff they see, those things
need to be told.
You know, because literally myfirst call.
I graduated the academy on July20th 1999.
I got an FTO.
I'm sorry that's when I got anFTO, my very first call.
That night I worked midnightsthat night.
We're 30 minutes into being inthe car, my trainer say drive
(29:07):
here, drive there, go lookaround, we'll see where this
precinct is like.
First radio call we got was awas a body in a Burger King
parking lot.
And so we get there and thisperson had been run over in the
parking lot like seven or eighttimes and of course, later we
find out what the reason was.
But the person was, you know,laying there and the head was
(29:29):
swollen and it was disfiguredand discolored because of the
blood pooling the lividity.
We found out later that thiswas a cross-dresser male in a
car full of guys driving arounddrinking beer and doing what
they were doing.
And they found out that thatshe was a he.
They threw him out of the car,ran him over, but they again
(29:51):
they went, ran him over five orsix more times to make sure that
the job was done.
That was my very first call asa police officer and you know
I'm just one guy in one city onone shift.
You know that that insanityhappens all the time and that's
the stuff that you know.
They didn't teach me that inacademy.
You know that that insanityhappens all the time and that's
the stuff that you know.
They didn't teach me that inacademy.
You know there's no like hey,you're going to see someone in a
(30:11):
run over seven times becausethey're a cross dresser.
You know, deal with it, kid, um, yeah, how much more.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, you're right, you're supposed to go, you're
supposed to go on with your jobor you're supposed to go home.
Now you were older, so you hadseen a few things.
What do you think thedifference would have been if
you were 20, 21?
And that was your first call.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Obviously the maturity helps.
You know the maturity and whatto do or how to do and how to
react.
You know, I've seen young guyswho haven't done so.
Well, you know, for things likethat.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yep, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, maturity obviously was big that night,
but even being mature, right.
So here I am, a kid who growsup in the suburbs of Omaha no
real crime, no issues.
I had seen three or four bodiesin my life and it was all at a
funeral.
I had never seen a crime victim.
I'd never seen someone murdered.
(31:08):
Of course they show youpictures in the academy, but
that's a picture and there's nosmell with the picture yeah so
yeah, you know it.
So it's, it's hard, you know,bringing in the 21 year old,
especially with no militarytraining.
You know they don't, they justdon't have life training.
But you know, if that's who ourrecruits are, then that's where
recruits are.
We have to train them the bestwe can.
(31:29):
You, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
No, very true.
What's the most surprisingthing you've learned about
yourself over your journey as apolice officer?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I believe I realized that I'm a much more
compassionate person than I everthought I was, like I mentioned
earlier about being thebleeding heart.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
You know, I found real compassion for human beings
and the human struggle and eventhe drug dealers that I
arrested.
You know they're most of themwere addicts.
You know, to be honest, and Ifirmly believe in my heart that
there isn't a single person inthe world who is an addict that
is truly down and out at theirworst and wants to be an addict
(32:12):
again tomorrow yeah, they don'twant to is an addict that is
truly down and out at their attheir worst and wants to be an
addict again tomorrow?
Yeah, they don't.
They don't want to be an addict.
They are from choices they'vemade, but they don't want to be
addicted to methamphetamine orto heroin or to fentanyl or
anything else.
But, like I said, I foundmyself being being much more
compassionate, especially abouthalfway through my career.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And I was okay with it.
It's like you know what.
You're going to call me a pussybecause I'm compassionate.
You know, if you want to fight,let's go Bring it on.
I can be compassionate as Iwant, at the same time, also be
deadly.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
We used to call them care bears.
Yeah, teddy bears yeah, but Imean it's a good point and I
think you know you're right.
The whole you get to,especially doing the undercover
stuff.
You get to see people probablymore at their worst than at
their worst because you see themover a longer period of time
doing stuff and I always used tothink there for the grace of
(33:09):
God and a wrong decision by meor a wrong choice by me, that
could be me.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, you know, and you say, you see them at their
worst, but and you, you also seetheir true soul, because they
have no idea, you're the cops.
They're telling you their souland you're like, oh my God, you
are so lost.
This is how you, this is howyou truly think, oh man.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
That's a whole nother conversation when it comes to
drug enforcement, and I'm notgoing to go there.
What do you think?
So there's two questions what'sthe most important or crucial
trait for someone to first be apolice officer and second, for
someone who's going to workundercover?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Well, to be a police officer in general, I think you
just have to be a strong person,not necessarily physically, but
you have to be a strong personin your soul and in your guiding
light direction that you takein life.
You have to be able to standfor things and stick to it,
because it's going to be tough.
You're going to get punched inthe mouth physically and you're
(34:10):
going to get punched in themouth metaphorically and you
have to be able to stand forwhat you believe.
You know that's yep, law andorder.
As far as undercover, I thinkyou just you, you better have a
good base for who you are, notwho, not who the character is
that you're playing you knowbecause it's.
You're basically a character ina movie.
You know you're, you're a roleplayer and that's it, and you
(34:31):
need to be able to turn thatrole player off as soon as it's
over when you go home and astrong belief and identity in
who you are and an understandingthat it is just a role.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Do you think?
Speaker 2 (34:43):
yes, it's just a role .
You know, I caught myself earlyon um when I wasn't very good
at a recover.
I live in the state or I workedin the state of nebraska, which
is the river between the nextstate and Iowa, so the next
state over which.
I have no authority inwhatsoever is five miles from my
police department and I livedin Iowa.
I would drive home and I'd stopat a bar in Iowa and have two
(35:06):
beers.
I would always limit myself totwo beers but I was trying to
drum up other undercover casesthat weren't even in my
jurisdiction and I you know Iwas.
I was so hell-bent on I got tobe this badass undercover guy
and have hundreds of cases ayear that I was out of control,
you know, thinking I needed tobe in control doing these things
and I wasn't based in reality.
(35:28):
In my first couple years.
You know and that's yeah, that'salso a big tangent of a story
that I wasn't in control of lifeat the time.
I was doing too many things andtrying to be too many people
and, you know, working 18 hoursa day, every day, and I was
running.
I was running downhill as fastas I could and luckily I didn't
trip and wipe out too badly.
But that was also in thattimeframe of my first couple
(35:52):
years of undercover and luckilyI kind of landed softly after my
wife and my favorite partner atwork, edie, you know, told me I
better wake the hell up becauseI was turning into quite the
jerk, you know.
So that's the other good thing,I guess.
So I was going to thank you.
I accepted that.
I realized that was, and theytold that, yeah, I realized it
was true.
Yeah, it was coming from twodifferent angles two of the
(36:20):
people I trusted most in my lifeand I took a step back and
realized, yeah, this is aproblem, you know.
So that'd be the other secondpiece that an officer needs.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
It isn't them, they need a good support system, you
know, to keep them in line, keepthem in check, you know, yep,
no, that's.
That's uh a big definite, Iknow.
I think one of the things is,you can have that.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
You also need to listen to it if somebody says
that to you you know, I'massuming you guys had some sort
of handler, you know, and you'dsince you did cases longer term,
you know we didn't have ahandler, we just had other guys
on a job.
You know, and if, if I wouldhave had a true handler in that
undercover handler sense, theywould have probably been noticed
(37:01):
sooner than it was noticed.
That you know what I, what Iwas kind of becoming.
You know I didn't do anythingillegal, I wasn't.
I wasn't using drugs, I meannothing like that.
I wasn't using drugs, I meannothing like that.
I wasn't stepping on my wife,it just was.
I was such a, I turned into sucha control freak because being
on SWAT, you have to be incontrol.
Yep, being in narcotics, yougot to be in control and working
undercover, you got to controleverything.
(37:21):
And there was no I mean therewas no time where I wasn't
trying to control every singleaspect of the day and it just
started melting down on me, andwhich included going to bars
outside of my even legaljurisdiction and trying to drum
up dope.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yeah, um, just in regards to that, now that you've
left and and you've you'vechanged that, are you happy to
not have control, are you?
Or does it still sometimes burn?
Go you sort of go, it's a, it'sa.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Oh, I could lie to you and say it's easy, but my
wife would come here and smackme and say you're full of it.
I do much, much better, jason,much, much better.
And even when I fail, I willcatch myself and say okay, hang
on, just stop this isn't yours.
You don't have to run the wholething.
Yeah, so it's much better.
But like anything else, I don'tthink it ever is going to be a
(38:12):
hundred percent perfect, youknow.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
But you're aware of it and you catch yourself.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
What would you say to someone who's going through
that now?
I suppose I guess I would tryto relate to them.
You know where I was at, youknow, and how, how destructive
it can be.
You know you can push peopleaway and hopefully they'll come
back when you change, but maybethey won't.
So you know, just to be, try tohave some self-awareness as to,
you know, are those some ofyour attributes as well, you
know, fair enough.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
All right, look, we've been going for an hour and
20.
So what I might do is I'll giveyou the last comment in regards
to, firstly, if you can tell uswhere again your name of your
book, where to get it, and alast comment in regards to your
life as a police officer.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Yeah, so the book is my Life as a Police Officer.
That's why I wrote it.
You can get it on Amazoncom.
It's called RAM1ONE.
That was my position on the SWATteam, but I basically wrote the
book as to a memoir of mycareer and that's from being
involved in shootings to havingI've had two partners kill in
(39:16):
the line of duty, to workingundercover, to working on a SWAT
team.
You know explosives andcraziness.
I basically just told a storyand I was very stark in that
sense where a lot of thesethings that I just told you,
that were self-deprecating,they're in the book book.
You know I didn't make myselfout to be this hero.
I was like, hey, here's thethings that I screwed up and
(39:37):
screwed up royally and here'sthe, here's the life lessons I
learned.
And again, also about the book,because I'm bragging about the
people that that I worked with.
You know some of the greatcases.
Like I mentioned Edie earlier.
I mentioned some of theseawesome cases and it was just a
little piece of, but I got to bethere to see some excellent
police work, whether that's onthe narcotics side or whether
that was in the SWAT world.
(39:58):
I feel utterly blessed that Igot to do two of the most prized
jobs, I think, in lawenforcement, and I did them for
a long time, and so not a lot ofpeople get that lucky to get to
do exactly what they want foras long as I did.
So it's like you know what.
I'm going to share the storiesbecause I was a lucky guy.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
And I think people should read them for no other
reason, to say thank you forwhat you've done and for that
service.
All right, what we might do iswe might end up there.
I've been talking to PaulMaloney I got that right that
time, didn't I?
Yeah, who is a former policeofficer from the Omaha police in
(40:40):
Nebraska?
This is Behind the Thin BlueLine, the new name for the
podcast where I'm going to haveconversations with police
officers about what they've doneand how they have worked and
then, if they're former, whatthey're doing after and how
they've done it.
So if you're a current orformer police officer and you
(41:00):
want to share your stories, thenplease drop me a line at
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
Paul, thank you very much foryour time.
I do appreciate it.
Story's been fantastic andagain, that's Ram1.
You can get that at amazoncom.
Have a great evening for aTuesday night, I think it is
(41:24):
there.
And to everyone else, thank youfor joining us.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Jason, thank you so much for having me have a good
day.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Bye now.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'llagain explore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
(41:53):
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
You don't like people in suits or uh, just all the
criminals.
I mean just there's hundreds andhundreds of criminals walking
in and out and I have to gothrough the magnetometers, like
they do, and I'm wearing a gunand the deputies that, the
deputies that work themagnetometers know that I'm
undercover cop and they'll tryto wave me through.
And all these criminals arewatching me get waved through
(01:46):
and I'm like, so I would scoutit out and then try to look down
the hallway and when there'snobody waiting in line, then I'd
scout them out in the hallwayto try to go through, so people
wouldn't see me walk themthrough and not getting checked.
It's not a great setup, to bebrutally honest.
I have another partner who wasan ATf, who's a fed, and they
(02:07):
did everything completelydifferent.
It was way better backstop thanwhat we did, you know, but
we're old with the punches, Iguess has the over your time
doing.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
It has the focus on I don't know if safety is the
right word, but the securityaround it changed, or is it?
It still the same way thatyou're talking now To me you're
talking.
It sounds like you're sayingit's not taking as seriously as
it should be.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
It is not.
It still is not.
But I also know this that theamount of guys or gals doing
undercover within our departmenthas really decreased.
The week that I retired I did apresentation to a state agency.
There was 500 cops and 500supposed narcotics officers in
(02:57):
attendance and I was polling thecrowd to see how many guys are
working undercover and in thatgroup of 500 who were working
direct undercover, and thatgroup of 500 had three people
raise their hand, which just wassurprising to me.
You know, and I got out at atime where the defund, the
police was high and I think justa lot of motivation around the
(03:17):
country, at least in the States.
Motivation around the countrywas why would we want to risk
our necks when prosecutorsaren't prosecuting to the 10th
degree and nobody seems to carewhat cops are doing as far as
doing good?
So I think a lot of the narcsare like why would I risk my
neck to do the extra one?
(03:38):
It really isn't going to make adifference anyways, and I think
it's a shame because I thinkthey do.
They do do better um cases ifit's undercover and I know they
have stronger cases, but uh, youknow it's not mine for me to
tell them what to do.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You know no, that's that's.
That's the point of this.
So you can say what peopleshould do and they'll never
listen to it.
Why did you get out?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
You know I had a long career on the SWAT team and I
was generally the ram guy and inmy career I rammed over a
thousand doors with a manual,just a manual breech ram.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Talk just for those of us who aren't from America
and who have never been in SWATwhat a ram guy is and what you
do and how you do it.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah.
So I'm holding a 60-pound tubeof steel with handles on it and
a faceplate.
I'm the battering ram that'sgoing to knock the door off the
hinges.
And up until the last couple ofyears we did mainly no-knock
search warts.
So that means every warrant wewent on, we rammed the door.
Now there's more of a push todo a knock and announce and a
(04:46):
lot of those times people cometo the door.
But in my 18 years of specialoperations between gang unit and
narcotics and on the SWAT team,I rammed over a thousand doors.
I mean, I just destroyed myshoulders and I got terrible
arthritis in my hands.
And so I was.
I was 51 and I was the oldestguy on the SWAT team and my body
(05:08):
was breaking down.
And I I really felt that I was.
I was on the prefaces of beinga detriment to the team as
opposed to um on the good side,because if I couldn't physically
do something, um, to help ateammate of mine, it was time to
go.
So as soon as I hit that momentof you know what I'm kind of
broke physically.
It's time to leave.
(05:29):
So I left the SWAT team and thenit was like six months later,
nine months later, that mylongtime supervisor.
He was my boss 18 of my 23years, dave Bianchi.
He was being forced out at a 30year mark and so I just retired
the same time that he retired.
So I left two years early.
25 is kind of when most peopleretire in the States, at least
(05:53):
in Omaha.
I left at 23 because Iphysically couldn't do the job.
I physically couldn't do SWATand I was kind of had run my
course on the undercover worldand I was like you know what,
that's just time to go.
Didn't want to get back to sitbehind a desk in the uniform no,
no, this guy, this guy doesn'twear a shirt and a tie.
(06:13):
I couldn't operate in the.
Even when I left I still wasn'tphysically I wouldn't have
passed a physical exam to to getback to full duty.
I had two rotator cuffsurgeries back to back and that
is just a debilitating surgery.
So I was still writing a deskfor my last five months just
pushing paper and assisting onthe backside and I'd had enough
(06:37):
of that.
It was time to go.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
When you left, did you have an idea of what you
were going to do afterwards, orit was.
I'm just going to leave and therest will work itself out.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
You know, my wife and I have a small training company
, a firearms training company,and I've done some motivational
speaking on like situationalawareness for for high school
kids.
Yep, um, I had no plans ofgoing back to the department
part-time.
In fact I said I would never doit, um, but when they created
this new position for retiredguys to run the range, I thought
, man, firearms is one of myloves.
Anyways, I can do that two,three days a week.
(07:09):
That's all.
It is just two or three days aweek and I was just kind of
killing time until my wiferetired and she retired three
weeks ago after 30 years.
So now we're both kind oflooking at the future of some
traveling and some things likethat.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
You should come out to Australia.
That's the place you should goNow as a police officer, you get
a pension, Is that right?
That's correct.
So you effectively get paid tobe retired.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yes, in the States we have for non-pension people,
there's what's called socialsecurity.
Yeah, but as police officers,because we have a pension, we
don't get social security.
So, yeah, my pension is basedon my input in my career.
Basically it's a livable wage,which is very nice.
(08:02):
You know to do that for as longas you do and to be in the mix
like that.
It's nice that you can have alivable wage for that career.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Is that forever or does it cut out after a certain
number of years?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
No, it's until you die.
You know, for cops it's usuallynot that long.
It seems like yeah,unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yes, that is very true, true, all right.
So, so you're out, you're doing.
You're doing this part-timework, um, doing you.
You enjoy it because of thefirearms.
What about the training part,with the the new people coming
through does?
Does that float your boat?
I probably enjoy that.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I probably enjoy that more than anything.
To be brutally honest, if Iwould have had enough guts, I
would have left narcotics twoyears before I did and went to
the academy to be an instructor.
Yes, why?
And it's because I just love.
I love the job and I love, Ilove training and I've got a.
I've got a motive of turning.
Whatever the scenario, whateverthe training modicum is that
(09:05):
time is adding the realism ofscenario-based training.
You know that was one thing wedid on SWAT.
A lot is, instead of just doingdoor clearing, let's add a
scenario to it that makes itmore realistic.
And I do the same things withthe recruits.
You know whether it's thefirearms aspect of it or whether
it's the tactics, or whetherit's room clearing or how to do
(09:27):
a traffic stop.
I play the bad guy on thetraffic stops and I know how to
be a bad guy because I was a badguy for a long time, and so the
whole search, searching the carfor drugs and all those things
I get dressed up like I used todress when I was undercover,
looking like a biker type, andso these raw recruits are coming
up to a door of this big dudewith the beard and a cut-off
(09:49):
sleeve shirt.
He looks like a biker and I'mplaying the part during their
academy traffic stops and Ithink it just takes it to
another level.
And again, this isn't about me,this is just about how to train
in a more realistic way.
You know lots of guys do it,but I absolutely enjoy trying to
train for the realism of whatthey're going to find on the
(10:11):
streets, you know, and to seethem be scared at the window in
a training scenario, it's likeokay, cool, because you're going
to be scared on the streetsyour first couple of traffic
stops.
You know you need to understandhow to work with that.
As opposed to them going up toa window on a traffic stop of
their standard academyinstructor who's wearing their
polo with their badge on theirshirt, you know, they know that
guy's not going to hurt them.
(10:33):
So that's why I enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, no, that's very true.
Training your background, orthey know your background, that
you've, you know, you've done,uh, you, what we call your
general duties, your uniformstuff, what you call what you
call patrol, um, the, the gangstuff, the narcotics, the SWAT,
the undercover, they, you, they,they know all of that about you
(10:58):
yeah, they come to know it.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Um, the first couple times we do scenarios with them,
we we've kind of left it blankso they don't really know who we
are.
We're just extra role players,um, but then we, as we're
teaching them, we start tellinghere's why I know these things.
You know, this is what I didfor for this length of time
what's the biggest question youget about the undercover work?
you know, I think the biggestone is are we?
(11:20):
Are you scared when you do it?
You know, like you askedearlier and earlier, are you
scared, and that wasn't reallysomething that gave me fear
necessarily, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
What about?
Do you have anyone come up toyou and say, hey, I'd really
like to be an undercover?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, there's young cops whowant to do it, but I've mentored
a few guys along the way.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
What advice do you give them?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
A lot of what I was just telling you.
You've got to tell mostly thetruth and you have to have three
steps ahead of them in yourplanning when they ask you
something and you have to sellit.
And I don't mean selling thefact that you've got this long
backdrop story of somethingthat's phony, but mostly what's
true.
You know, I had a truck that Idrove that looked like it was a
(12:07):
construction truck, right Poreand concrete kind of truck.
That was my undercover vehiclefor a long time and I didn't
just use the truck, I had allthe equipment in the truck and I
would have bid sheets on mydashboard.
And I had a guy come up to mywindow once who my informant was
going to endorse me to.
I found out later that he was aformer informant for a
(12:29):
different agency and his namewas Phil.
It's like hey, what do you do,paul?
I said I'm in, I'm in concretework.
He's like bullshit, you don'tdo concrete.
And so, because I had preplannedJason up on my dash or above
advisor yeah I pulled down a bidsheet, that I handed it to him
and I wrote that bid sheet thatday, had the date on it and the
address and it was my oldaddress.
So I know the address and Icould describe.
(12:50):
I could describe the driveway Iwas going to pour and all the
dimensions and I know a littlebit about concrete.
So I had all the, had thenumbers under the measurements
and the cost and the and the,the labor hours, and I handed
him the.
I handed him the, the bid sheet, and said F you, and he looks
at it for about a minute.
He's like, oh, I guess you dodo concrete.
And I'm like, yeah, don't geton my face, punk.
(13:11):
And I ended up buying dope fromhim a couple days later because
he believed my story.
And I think that's where someguys fall short, is that you
know, that was me the firstcouple times somebody asked me
what I did.
Oh, I'm a welder and I'm not.
I don't know about welding, um,and I could tell there's times
where they wouldn't believe meand so like I can't use that
story anymore because I'm not awelder, but I know concrete and
(13:32):
I know some construction.
So I just I let them know theyhave to kind of be backstopped
themselves, since our departmentdoesn't do it.
You know, have the, have someprops to come with you, have
some things they can see.
Um, I used to put pictures ofme and my buddies who aren't
cops on the on the sun visor ofmy car, or especially if they
were friends of mine that hadpassed away yeah um, because,
(13:55):
like there's a picture of thisguy and there's a picture of
someone else, you know they'rewearing construction outfits.
You know it just sold it.
You know that this is what I do.
Um, and that's when I gotbetter it's the little details.
Yeah, I looked like this big,burly biker.
I used to wear my HarleyDavidson shirts cut off and the
goatee was down to my bellybutton and I acted like a biker.
(14:17):
And I'm not a biker and a lotof the deals that I had that
failed.
My boss would say later I thinkyou scared the crap out of that
dude.
You know you look too mean.
He thinks you're going to beathim up or you're going to rip
him off.
And when I finally went to thatundercover school, the guy's
like yeah, you look too mean,dude, you're scaring people.
(14:37):
Change your look, you need tosmile more.
And so I went from the bikerlook to like a construction
worker.
Look.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And instead of being the tough guy, it was just a
dude.
You know, that was it.
Okay and that's what I pass onto these guys.
Is you got to just be the dude.
You got to be an everydaynobody, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yep, yep, what's the biggest?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
myth you think there is out there about undercover
Shoot, that we drive Ferrarisand eat lobster every day.
I don't know.
I mean, in our department theythink that you work at the
offsite, that it's, it's a, it'sa gold, gold paved road and and
you know, things are justawesome and they don't realize
that you're that you're diggingthrough trash with maggots in it
to get to look for things.
But as far as just theundercover itself, I don't know,
(15:22):
probably that you're going tothe barge and drinking all the
time and and hanging out withwith, you know, naked women,
kind of like your story yep,well, no, and I could.
I would like in some of the time, not all the time, but yeah
anyway, um, I I think maybe thebiggest myth is that it's maybe
that it's easy and it's it'salways glamorous and you know,
what they don't know is thatonce you're into those people,
(15:46):
into that world, man, my phonewas on 24-7.
Not that my phone was on myphone.
I was working my phone 24-7.
You know, if they're hittingyou up about something, even if
you're going to blow them off,you've got to somehow blow them
off and you know so.
It was a 24-7 job, and to be atdinner with your wife and your
(16:07):
daughter and have to be dealingwith stuff like that kind of
sucks.
But if I want that deal to go,then I still got to play the
part, even when I'm not working.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Well, was that probably the hardest part?
Or the most difficult part wasthat you know when you're out
and having to be on 24 7, buthave a life as well yeah, you
know.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And then obviously my wife was a, was a cop, and she
worked in narcotics for a coupleyears early in her career and
did a little bit of undercovernot very much at all, but a
little bit but so she knew therole.
Obviously, my daughter grew upme looking like this and
generally wearing jeans and ahearty t-shirt, and so we had,
we had code words that I've.
(16:50):
You know, if we were out inpublic and I should happen to
bump in or see someone that Ihad been dealing with or I'm
currently dealing with, we hadcode words set up hey, listen,
dad's got to go to work and youknow, squeeze your hand and just
walk away from them.
Um, and she was.
She was amazing, my daughter,when she rolled with the punches
.
You know she didn't tell otherpeople what her dad did, but
(17:10):
yeah, you know, so you had tokind of understand why dad
looked like an idiot for for forso long.
You know, yeah, like you know,I just look like a bum which is
always the way to go undetected,I guess.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, I, I guess.
I want to go back to somethingyou said when you were talking
about writing your book.
The fact that, um, you know,staying awake, um, not being
able to sleep, is good for whenyou want to write a book, why do
you think you, you, apart fromthe fact you were writing the
book I won't assume that thereason that you couldn't sleep
(17:48):
was because you wanted to writethe book.
I'm assuming that's somethingthat happened gradually over
time Do you think the job hasaffected you to that point to,
you know, not sleep properly?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Oh yeah, a hundred percent.
You know I've I've been ininsomnia, have suffered from
insomnia for numbers of years.
You know you again, as you wellknow.
You know it's a, it's a toughdeal and you know I, I ran for
so long, that entire 16 yearswhen I was on the SWAT team I
was undercover and, um, not onlywas I doing undercover work and
(18:25):
doing narc warrants and doingSWAT hits, you know there was
there was multiple days in a rowof working 18 hours a day and
there was times I would like Iwould sleep in my Suburban in
the parking lot, cause it'sthree in the morning.
I got to be there at six.
I might as well just sleep here.
Um, and constantly chasing yourtail, you know it.
Just that has an effect on thehuman body.
(18:47):
You know that the adrenalinedumps which you don't even feel
anymore.
They're still there, you justdon't feel them.
You know all the extra cortisolin your body, you know changes
your body chemistry and that youknow insomnia is one of the
root effects of that.
And you know gaining weightaround the midsection and yeah,
(19:07):
we can all relate to that yeah,you know it.
Uh, you know short temper,things like that.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
You know it's, it's, it's real have you spoken anyone
to anyone about those sorts ofthings?
As far as, like a counselor,yeah, well, well, anyone, it
doesn't have to be aprofessional, but no, have you
spoken to anyone about them?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
You know it's getting so much more open and it's so
much more accepted for lawenforcement and military guys
and gals to openly talk about.
Hey, you know they see someone.
I haven't seen anybodypersonally.
I've done a ton of talking withvery close friends and whether
they're a therapist or not, Ithink you're still getting
something out of it.
(19:48):
After my my officer in front ofa shooting where I killed that
guy, the department forces youto see a psychologist three or
four times before you come backto make sure you're ready to
come back.
And I that was.
You know those were goodsessions and I went back
voluntarily with him for threeor four more sessions about six
months later because you know Idon't think I had really
(20:10):
accepted the gravity of it.
I was trying to be too bravado,you know, and it was beneficial
.
And, like I stated earlierthat's a little bit of my
background before I became a copis the mental health field.
Yeah, so there's no shame inanybody, you know, talking to a
professional about that kind ofstuff and maybe I should look
(20:31):
into it.
You know, for the sleep part ofit.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
I don't know.
It's more a question that indoing this I've been discovering
more about PTSD and those sortsof things Generally.
Yeah, I'm the type of personlet's say I lose my job tomorrow
, I'll get another job on Mondaythat I'm the type of person
let's say I lose my job tomorrow, I'll get another job on Monday
.
That's just how it is.
You know, my partner kicks meout, I'll be fine.
My dog dies, I'll be upset, butyou know she'll stop snoring.
But the more you go through it,those things like those short
(20:58):
bursts of anger, the not beingable to sleep, the all those
sorts of things, you you look atthat and you go, okay, that's a
common thing.
And you talk to people and it'slike well, maybe there is a bit
of PTSD in there, maybe there's.
There are things that areaffecting me, that I don't
realize are affecting me,because for so long they were
just normal things yeah, youknow you're, you're right.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Um, I just, I just personally, and and this is just
Paul, the PTSD part of it Ihave a hard time accepting that
label only because I almost feeland it's not, but I almost feel
like it's reserved for themilitary people who I was never
in combat.
You know I was involved inshootings, but I was never in
(21:42):
combat.
There weren't bombs dropping onme.
You know, in combat thereweren't bombs dropping on me.
You know, and I I know that atleast here in the states,
sometimes that gets abused.
Um, the ptsd angle, andobviously if someone has ptsd
then I'll be your, I'll be yourbiggest supporter.
But here I, here we see somephony cases, or lots of phony
cases, and it's bothered me.
(22:03):
Um, if you wanted to call itptsb, well then, okay, tell me,
that's mine, that's fine, butit's almost like to me in my
heart.
That's reserved for themilitary guys who who are in
iraq and afghanistan and vietnam.
And you know, it's just, I feelashamed if I would accept that
label and sorry, what would youcall the stress?
Speaker 1 (22:26):
then you think the police deal with.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Some type of longevity career stress disorder
?
I guess you know.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
We could start a new acronym.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, you know, and again it goes back to like I
mentioned.
You know you're here atThanksgiving dinner and maybe
you're having a tiff with yourfamily members, but yesterday
you looked at a guy who put a 12gauge in his mouth and pulled
the trigger and his head's allover the wall yeah, and you're
supposed to now go outthanksgiving dinner tomorrow and
like it's no big deal, I don'teven think it's dealing with the
(22:59):
public.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
You can do that and then later in your shift you're
gonna be doing a traffic stropwith some young kid who's
decided to get stroppy becausethey want to defund the police,
and the natural response isdickhead.
You've got no idea what I justdid back in your box and that
gets you in trouble 100%.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
And I used to go back to my old high school every
spring and every fall and Iwould do a one class um with one
of my old instructors, whichwas which was great, and I would
, and they and it was basicallyjust an hour long session of Q
and a about about the job, andthey always want to know about
SWAT narcotics, obviously.
But I would flat out tell them.
(23:40):
The first things I would say islisten, I'll tell you
everything I can tell youlegally and something that's not
case sensitive.
I'm probably going to swear Isaid.
But one thing I'll tell you, ifyou have the question is why was
the cop who pulled me over anasshole?
And you know why?
Did you think that guy was acomplete jerk when you got
pulled over?
And so somebody will ask andit's like hey, listen, you have
(24:01):
no idea what that guy or galjust went through.
They could have just left asuicide scene.
They could have just left aninfant death scene or fatal
accident or a fire, or you namethe hundreds of things they left
in the last month that arebuilding in their soul.
And you're supposed to do itwith a smile and you're supposed
to do it right 100% of the time, every time, and not have any
(24:24):
faults.
And then you got the 16 yearold punk who is who's talking
smack and you snap at him and um, and whatever you do, and then
you get in trouble because nowit's on video yep yeah, so that
just all adds up 100 and so,yeah, you know it's.
Is that post-traumatic or isthat just, like I said, the kind
of a longevity thing thatbuilds up?
(24:45):
I believe that cops have it.
Um, they just sound like it's aweird thing.
Yeah, I don't have to label it,you know, because yeah to me
it's all just a military thing,and I love the guys in green and
um they're, they're my heroes,you know yep, no, that's fair
enough, just in regards to goingto schools.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
You've lived, I guess , the the whole defund, the
police thing and you know I'vebeen out of it.
I've seen some of the stuffhere.
It's it's, you know, not reallybig in australia.
We don't have that same, thatsame culture, I guess, of hating
police to the extent that theyhave in in in the states.
But I guess one of the thingsis do you think police are their
own worst enemies in the factthat they don't do enough of
(25:28):
explaining why something mighthave happened, why a response
was the way it was?
It's more nothing to see here.
We're just going to put up thebrick wall and you can yell and
shout that the fact that someoneabused you but we're not going
to explain it, we're not goingto do anything about it abused
you, but we're not going toexplain it, we're not going to
do anything about it, and thecommunity doesn't understand
enough what police go through toget to that point.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I think that the individual officers may not do a
good job.
I do believe that there's amovement amongst departments
across the country to say justwhat you're saying.
Hey, listen, it's a two-sidedstreet here and there's lots of
things that you just don't havea clue about.
You know, and your perceivedattention towards the cops as to
what they're doing and whythey're doing it, or your
perceived you know, let's callit what it is.
(26:20):
You know the perceived racismyou think is out there is phony
and the absolute lion's share ofcops that I've ever met across
the country.
You know, but we don't do agood job individually.
You know, but it's hard, youknow, if you go on a call and
the people are, you know, mfingyou and I don't know how you're
(26:45):
going to weave in.
Hey, listen, let me get on mysoapbox for a while and tell you
the day that I had.
You can do all the calm, gohome.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I don't think it's an individual's response to that.
I personally believe and lookpart of this whole concept of
talking to people like yourself,and hopefully more, is for
people to be able to see andunderstand what police go
through.
So the next time they have aninteraction with someone they
might not say that smart asscomment, they might not be a
(27:15):
dick yeah, I might not do thatbecause they don't.
They might have anunderstanding of what's going on
or what they may have seen orbeen to in the last day, week,
month, year, whatever.
And I guess from where I sit,the police when I say in general
the police department'smarketing are their own worst
(27:40):
enemies, in the sense that whensomething bad happens, it's
usually there's nothing to see.
Here there's no publiceducation about what it's
usually there's nothing to see.
Here there's no publiceducation about what it's really
like to be a police officer.
Now, the downside of that is,if you show people what it's
really like to be a policeofficer, people won't join.
But there has to be.
(28:00):
I just think there needs to bemore education about what police
deal with so there can beempathy from the people we serve
as well, and that's one of thethings I'm hoping to try and do
with this, but I think policeforces in general and police
departments in general probablylack the foresight to do that
(28:22):
over a very long period of time.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I agree, You're right and I applaud you for doing
this and I hope it is justoverwhelmingly successful and
that more people do podcasts,because you can only serve X
amount of people.
But you're right, the storiesneed to be out there and it's
interesting how even just thisinterview is evolving.
You know, and the thought ofyou know the cool undercover
stories, right, or whatever.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
The everyday cop, the stuff they see, those things
need to be told.
You know, because literally myfirst call.
I graduated the academy on July20th 1999.
I got an FTO.
I'm sorry that's when I got anFTO, my very first call.
That night I worked midnightsthat night.
We're 30 minutes into being inthe car, my trainer say drive
(29:07):
here, drive there, go lookaround, we'll see where this
precinct is like.
First radio call we got was awas a body in a Burger King
parking lot.
And so we get there and thisperson had been run over in the
parking lot like seven or eighttimes and of course, later we
find out what the reason was.
But the person was, you know,laying there and the head was
(29:29):
swollen and it was disfiguredand discolored because of the
blood pooling the lividity.
We found out later that thiswas a cross-dresser male in a
car full of guys driving arounddrinking beer and doing what
they were doing.
And they found out that thatshe was a he.
They threw him out of the car,ran him over, but they again
(29:51):
they went, ran him over five orsix more times to make sure that
the job was done.
That was my very first call asa police officer and you know
I'm just one guy in one city onone shift.
You know that that insanityhappens all the time and that's
the stuff that you know.
They didn't teach me that inacademy.
You know that that insanityhappens all the time and that's
the stuff that you know.
They didn't teach me that inacademy.
You know there's no like hey,you're going to see someone in a
(30:11):
run over seven times becausethey're a cross dresser.
You know, deal with it, kid, um, yeah, how much more.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, you're right, you're supposed to go, you're
supposed to go on with your jobor you're supposed to go home.
Now you were older, so you hadseen a few things.
What do you think thedifference would have been if
you were 20, 21?
And that was your first call.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Obviously the maturity helps.
You know the maturity and whatto do or how to do and how to
react.
You know, I've seen young guyswho haven't done so.
Well, you know, for things likethat.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yep, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, maturity obviously was big that night,
but even being mature, right.
So here I am, a kid who growsup in the suburbs of Omaha no
real crime, no issues.
I had seen three or four bodiesin my life and it was all at a
funeral.
I had never seen a crime victim.
I'd never seen someone murdered.
(31:08):
Of course they show youpictures in the academy, but
that's a picture and there's nosmell with the picture yeah so
yeah, you know it.
So it's, it's hard, you know,bringing in the 21 year old,
especially with no militarytraining.
You know they don't, they justdon't have life training.
But you know, if that's who ourrecruits are, then that's where
recruits are.
We have to train them the bestwe can.
(31:29):
You, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
No, very true.
What's the most surprisingthing you've learned about
yourself over your journey as apolice officer?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I believe I realized that I'm a much more
compassionate person than I everthought I was, like I mentioned
earlier about being thebleeding heart.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
You know, I found real compassion for human beings
and the human struggle and eventhe drug dealers that I
arrested.
You know they're most of themwere addicts.
You know, to be honest, and Ifirmly believe in my heart that
there isn't a single person inthe world who is an addict that
is truly down and out at theirworst and wants to be an addict
(32:12):
again tomorrow yeah, they don'twant to is an addict that is
truly down and out at their attheir worst and wants to be an
addict again tomorrow?
Yeah, they don't.
They don't want to be an addict.
They are from choices they'vemade, but they don't want to be
addicted to methamphetamine orto heroin or to fentanyl or
anything else.
But, like I said, I foundmyself being being much more
compassionate, especially abouthalfway through my career.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And I was okay with it.
It's like you know what.
You're going to call me a pussybecause I'm compassionate.
You know, if you want to fight,let's go Bring it on.
I can be compassionate as Iwant, at the same time, also be
deadly.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
We used to call them care bears.
Yeah, teddy bears yeah, but Imean it's a good point and I
think you know you're right.
The whole you get to,especially doing the undercover
stuff.
You get to see people probablymore at their worst than at
their worst because you see themover a longer period of time
doing stuff and I always used tothink there for the grace of
(33:09):
God and a wrong decision by meor a wrong choice by me, that
could be me.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, you know, and you say, you see them at their
worst, but and you, you also seetheir true soul, because they
have no idea, you're the cops.
They're telling you their souland you're like, oh my God, you
are so lost.
This is how you, this is howyou truly think, oh man.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
That's a whole nother conversation when it comes to
drug enforcement, and I'm notgoing to go there.
What do you think?
So there's two questions what'sthe most important or crucial
trait for someone to first be apolice officer and second, for
someone who's going to workundercover?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Well, to be a police officer in general, I think you
just have to be a strong person,not necessarily physically, but
you have to be a strong personin your soul and in your guiding
light direction that you takein life.
You have to be able to standfor things and stick to it,
because it's going to be tough.
You're going to get punched inthe mouth physically and you're
(34:10):
going to get punched in themouth metaphorically and you
have to be able to stand forwhat you believe.
You know that's yep, law andorder.
As far as undercover, I thinkyou just you, you better have a
good base for who you are, notwho, not who the character is
that you're playing you knowbecause it's.
You're basically a character ina movie.
You know you're, you're a roleplayer and that's it, and you
(34:31):
need to be able to turn thatrole player off as soon as it's
over when you go home and astrong belief and identity in
who you are and an understandingthat it is just a role.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Do you think?
Speaker 2 (34:43):
yes, it's just a role .
You know, I caught myself earlyon um when I wasn't very good
at a recover.
I live in the state or I workedin the state of nebraska, which
is the river between the nextstate and Iowa, so the next
state over which.
I have no authority inwhatsoever is five miles from my
police department and I livedin Iowa.
I would drive home and I'd stopat a bar in Iowa and have two
(35:06):
beers.
I would always limit myself totwo beers but I was trying to
drum up other undercover casesthat weren't even in my
jurisdiction and I you know Iwas.
I was so hell-bent on I got tobe this badass undercover guy
and have hundreds of cases ayear that I was out of control,
you know, thinking I needed tobe in control doing these things
and I wasn't based in reality.
(35:28):
In my first couple years.
You know and that's yeah, that'salso a big tangent of a story
that I wasn't in control of lifeat the time.
I was doing too many things andtrying to be too many people
and, you know, working 18 hoursa day, every day, and I was
running.
I was running downhill as fastas I could and luckily I didn't
trip and wipe out too badly.
But that was also in thattimeframe of my first couple
(35:52):
years of undercover and luckilyI kind of landed softly after my
wife and my favorite partner atwork, edie, you know, told me I
better wake the hell up becauseI was turning into quite the
jerk, you know.
So that's the other good thing,I guess.
So I was going to thank you.
I accepted that.
I realized that was, and theytold that, yeah, I realized it
was true.
Yeah, it was coming from twodifferent angles two of the
(36:20):
people I trusted most in my lifeand I took a step back and
realized, yeah, this is aproblem, you know.
So that'd be the other secondpiece that an officer needs.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
It isn't them, they need a good support system, you
know, to keep them in line, keepthem in check, you know, yep,
no, that's.
That's uh a big definite, Iknow.
I think one of the things is,you can have that.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
You also need to listen to it if somebody says
that to you you know, I'massuming you guys had some sort
of handler, you know, and you'dsince you did cases longer term,
you know we didn't have ahandler, we just had other guys
on a job.
You know, and if, if I wouldhave had a true handler in that
undercover handler sense, theywould have probably been noticed
(37:01):
sooner than it was noticed.
That you know what I, what Iwas kind of becoming.
You know I didn't do anythingillegal, I wasn't.
I wasn't using drugs, I meannothing like that.
I wasn't using drugs, I meannothing like that.
I wasn't stepping on my wife,it just was.
I was such a, I turned into sucha control freak because being
on SWAT, you have to be incontrol.
Yep, being in narcotics, yougot to be in control and working
undercover, you got to controleverything.
(37:21):
And there was no I mean therewas no time where I wasn't
trying to control every singleaspect of the day and it just
started melting down on me, andwhich included going to bars
outside of my even legaljurisdiction and trying to drum
up dope.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Yeah, um, just in regards to that, now that you've
left and and you've you'vechanged that, are you happy to
not have control, are you?
Or does it still sometimes burn?
Go you sort of go, it's a, it'sa.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Oh, I could lie to you and say it's easy, but my
wife would come here and smackme and say you're full of it.
I do much, much better, jason,much, much better.
And even when I fail, I willcatch myself and say okay, hang
on, just stop this isn't yours.
You don't have to run the wholething.
Yeah, so it's much better.
But like anything else, I don'tthink it ever is going to be a
(38:12):
hundred percent perfect, youknow.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
But you're aware of it and you catch yourself.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
What would you say to someone who's going through
that now?
I suppose I guess I would tryto relate to them.
You know where I was at, youknow, and how, how destructive
it can be.
You know you can push peopleaway and hopefully they'll come
back when you change, but maybethey won't.
So you know, just to be, try tohave some self-awareness as to,
you know, are those some ofyour attributes as well, you
know, fair enough.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
All right, look, we've been going for an hour and
20.
So what I might do is I'll giveyou the last comment in regards
to, firstly, if you can tell uswhere again your name of your
book, where to get it, and alast comment in regards to your
life as a police officer.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Yeah, so the book is my Life as a Police Officer.
That's why I wrote it.
You can get it on Amazoncom.
It's called RAM1ONE.
That was my position on the SWATteam, but I basically wrote the
book as to a memoir of mycareer and that's from being
involved in shootings to havingI've had two partners kill in
(39:16):
the line of duty, to workingundercover, to working on a SWAT
team.
You know explosives andcraziness.
I basically just told a storyand I was very stark in that
sense where a lot of thesethings that I just told you,
that were self-deprecating,they're in the book book.
You know I didn't make myselfout to be this hero.
I was like, hey, here's thethings that I screwed up and
(39:37):
screwed up royally and here'sthe, here's the life lessons I
learned.
And again, also about the book,because I'm bragging about the
people that that I worked with.
You know some of the greatcases.
Like I mentioned Edie earlier.
I mentioned some of theseawesome cases and it was just a
little piece of, but I got to bethere to see some excellent
police work, whether that's onthe narcotics side or whether
that was in the SWAT world.
(39:58):
I feel utterly blessed that Igot to do two of the most prized
jobs, I think, in lawenforcement, and I did them for
a long time, and so not a lot ofpeople get that lucky to get to
do exactly what they want foras long as I did.
So it's like you know what.
I'm going to share the storiesbecause I was a lucky guy.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
And I think people should read them for no other
reason, to say thank you forwhat you've done and for that
service.
All right, what we might do iswe might end up there.
I've been talking to PaulMaloney I got that right that
time, didn't I?
Yeah, who is a former policeofficer from the Omaha police in
(40:40):
Nebraska?
This is Behind the Thin BlueLine, the new name for the
podcast where I'm going to haveconversations with police
officers about what they've doneand how they have worked and
then, if they're former, whatthey're doing after and how
they've done it.
So if you're a current orformer police officer and you
(41:00):
want to share your stories, thenplease drop me a line at
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
Paul, thank you very much foryour time.
I do appreciate it.
Story's been fantastic andagain, that's Ram1.
You can get that at amazoncom.
Have a great evening for aTuesday night, I think it is
(41:24):
there.
And to everyone else, thank youfor joining us.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Jason, thank you so much for having me have a good
day.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Bye now.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'llagain explore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
(41:53):
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
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