July 1, 2024 • 39 mins
What drives someone to leave their childhood dream of working with computers behind to pursue a high-stakes career in law enforcement? Join us on "Behind the Thin Blue Line" as we sit down with Garth Kirkwood, a former Queensland police officer and undercover agent who now serves as a firefighter. Garth shares his compelling journey, from overcoming childhood bullying to his motivations for joining the police force, and the unexpected twists that led him there. His unique perspective sheds light on the often unseen camaraderie and rivalry between police officers and firefighters, revealing a shared commitment to community service that transcends professional boundaries.
Garth takes us through the rigorous process of police training and his early career's defining moments. From cleaning up after devastating floods in Charters Towers to dealing with personal hardships like gastroenteritis, Garth's resilience and adaptability stand out. He recounts his first postings in Maryborough and Harvey Bay and his unexpected foray into undercover work. These experiences not only honed his skills but also shaped his passion for law enforcement, preparing him for the challenges and complexities of life as an undercover agent.
In one of the most gripping parts of the episode, Garth opens up about his undercover assignments, including a memorable operation involving stolen bikes. He discusses the psychological and emotional toll of undercover work, the importance of keeping a light-hearted demeanor, and the profound impact on personal relationships. Transitioning back to uniformed duty presented its own set of challenges, from managing personal relationships to dealing with the stress of re-integration. Garth's candid reflections provide a raw and authentic look at the human side of law enforcement, highlighting the dedication and sacrifices made by those who serve to protect our communities.
During this episode Garth talks about Trojans Trek. More information can be found here - https://trojanstrek.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a glint
into something you will likelynever get to experience Uncover
the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me Jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police officer
myself, as we navigate throughthese stories on Behind the Thin
Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome to Behind the Thin BlueLine a Whisper in the Shadows
(01:30):
podcast, where I explore thehuman side of policing and law
enforcement.
I hope you're enjoying ourconversations with former and
current officers, where we delveinto the complexity of policing
and how it affects the humanside of a police officer as a
person.
I'm Jason Somerville and I wasa Queensland police officer for
nearly 14 years, as well as anundercover cop for two of those
years.
You'll have been listening tomy stories of my time working
(01:51):
undercover through my alter ego,michael Bates.
Well, I've decided it is timewe heard from other cops and let
them tell their stories.
Today I'm chatting with GarthKirkwood, who is a former police
officer and also a formerundercover officer based in
Queensland.
Good afternoon, garth.
How are you, mate?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Wonderful Jason, Thanks for having me online.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Mate, thanks for agreeing to join the podcast and
agreeing to have a chat aboutboth your general policing and
your undercover policingexperiences.
Usually, I start this withasking you to give us a brief
overview of what you currentlydo and where you currently do it
, if that's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Mate, I left the police many years ago and now
I'm a firefighter.
These days, as you probablywell know, there's a bit of a
rivalry between the police andthe fireys and that sort of
stuff, and I love my job, it's,you know.
Hopefully we'll talk about itlater, but what I wanted to do
growing up is that I want tohelp people, and I get to do
that every day at my job andsleep most nights and lift heavy
weights.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
well, look at me, I'm not looking at those heavy
weights, but that's the, that's,uh, the general consensus of
what the coppers think of us.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
yes, yeah, the stereotype, that's right, All
right.
So going back to, I guess, whatyou just said there what did
you want to be when you were akid, and why?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, like as I said now, I love helping people and
growing up I didn't have a lotof friends, so helping people
was a way for me to connect topeople and, the thing is,
without the social pressures of,you know, having to know what
to say and all that sort ofstuff.
So I loved helping people, Iplayed sport and that sort of
stuff and those little things.
(03:35):
So when I got towards highschool and that sort of stuff,
you know I love computers andtechnology and stuff like that
and so, but I couldn't see acareer in that at that time
because of yeah, back in the 80s, as you know, technology wasn't
really there was no Apple Bill1.20 Well, no, not that exactly.
You know, I still remember myfirst computer little program I
(03:57):
wrote when I was in primaryschool but that was, yeah, that
was doing.
But my mother, my mother was apostal manager for Australia
Post and she worked forAustralia Post for many, many
years, Yep, and she got me asummer job helping sorting mail
and that sort of stuff, which ispart of what a postman did.
(04:18):
So the thing is I did that andI was actually pretty good at it
because of the way my brainworks, you know, with those
patterns and all that sort ofstuff.
So a mate of mine was also apoliceman at the time, a very
close friend.
He was in mobile patrols, Ithink at the time, and you hear
some of the stories he wastelling you about and you were
(04:40):
around that time, so you knowwhat mobile patrols were doing
at that time.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yep, yep, you know you're around that time, so you
know what my old patrols weredoing at that time.
So, yeah, yeah, yep.
So I thought, oh, we arepleasing.
You know, I was bullied alittle bit at school and that
sort of stuff, and I was neververy confident.
That's what stuff.
So I thought, well, how can Iget back at the bullies and all
that sort of stuff?
I thought that's the power, thepower.
But but it was more aboutwanting to help people and I
remember in my application Iactually wrote that.
So you know, I'd love to helppeople.
(05:04):
And uh, and the thing was I gotthrough to the uh, the police
academy as a cadet back then andyeah, and if I hadn't gotten
that, the guy from the postoffice offered me a job, so so
I'd be wearing a blue uniform atthe time, whether it was police
or posting.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
So I was just I just about to say it would have been
a blue uniform either way.
In regards to the bullies,because that's a, you know
something that I suffer from aswell, and I make mention of it
in one of my um, yes, uh stories.
Um, did you ever come acrossanyone that you that had bullied
(05:41):
you when, uh, when you were apolice officer?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
it's well, there's a, there's a funny story like
playing football in the localcommunity, that sort of stuff.
You got to know people andthat's the stuff.
I wouldn't call him a bullythat this guy bullied, but he he
was a rep football player so hehad that arrogance and air
about him and I remember, uh, Iwas that, uh, the group of these
football blokes had come to myarea.
(06:05):
They were going to a concert atthe local pub and I was working
that night and I saw this guy.
I saw the guy so I pulled upand I was working at the time.
I said, oh, get a guy, seewho's going.
Yeah, good, good, good, downthis little alleyway.
There was a guy taking a leakin the alleyway, yep, and I've
(06:25):
just gone've just gone.
What are you doing?
and he's turned around and seenthe copper and the cop car, oh
yeah, and he's um, yeah, oh, andhe's walked out and seen this
man, oh yeah, everyone got agreat laugh of it all his mates
did and that sort of stuff.
But but afterwards it was thatsort of thing that made me feel
good about being a copper, inthe sense that he was this
person that was arrogant as allhell you know, but I was able to
(06:48):
have a joke with him.
But the thing is, and yeah,sort of bringing down a few pegs
, sort of thing yep, yeah, no,that that's fair enough.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Um, something else you, something else you touched
on was that in your applicationyou wrote that you wanted to
help people.
That's right.
Was that questioned when you,when you went through the
interview process and I'll cometo how, how that worked, but
yeah, were you questioned aboutthat?
Or did they make any commentaround that from you, gotta?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
admit, this is yeah many, many years ago.
So yeah I haven't done them,haven't done the math recently
um they did I do 35, but let'snot go there yeah, yeah, they
did mention, they did saysomething about that sort of
stuff and that they thought itwas a great way of wanting to do
that, uh, of coming in policingfor that.
So I'd actually quite enjoyedthat part of it.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
From where I report so talk to me about the whole
process.
Um, I've I've spoken about theprocess that that I went through
and you know interviews andacademy and and all that sort of
stuff.
What, uh, mine was a bitdifferent because, uh, as we
were talking about prior tostarting um, I was part of the
first 400 um of the, the, thenew era um, so we had a
(08:02):
completely different process tothose that came before us.
So talk through the processfrom when you applied to
actually first day on the job,not on the job, first day at the
academy.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, well, to get to that first day, obviously there
was the written up, there wasthe application process and
stuff like that, because I wasapplying as what was called the
cadet back in those days.
So what you could do, you couldleave high school and go
straight into the police service, and at the time I applied it
was an 18-month course with aminimum of 12 months living.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So did you leave?
Did you finish grade 12 or didyou?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
No.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I did finish grade 12 and go through.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, yeah, that was the process.
I got to to you speak to someof the older boys back in those
days and, yeah, they went anddid 11 and 12, I think.
Keith, I think, mentioned itand he's in his 11 12 yeah, yeah
, yeah, so with with my cohort,though.
no, we finished grade 12 andthen uh did, did the, uh, the
academy's thing.
Yeah, you did your application.
(09:05):
You had to.
There was a couple of writtentests, and the only one I can
remember is the essay, which isthe one where I write about
wanting to help people, so, andthen they had the interview and
so on and so forth, and theyasked you, like, what do you
think your TE score is going tobe?
And all that sort of stuff.
And you know, I, eight, highsevens, low eights, you know.
You know, for those didn't know, 990 was the top at that at
(09:28):
that time I ended up gettinglike just above average 735.
So so, yeah, I wasn't a greatstudent, but but the thing was,
yeah, so that's how I got to theacademy, uh, got in there and
that sort of stuff, and therewas four cadet groups of 25
students each, all male I thinkwe were, yeah, we were all male
(09:50):
at that stage.
So no females in any of ourgroups.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
So you did 18 months, and 12 months was live-in.
The first 12 months was live-in.
Well, that was what I appliedfor, right, okay?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
That's what I applied for.
Yeah, so it actually changedpart way through, so not long.
I don't remember exactly whenit changed over, but they
changed it to like a 10 monthprogram because they wanted to
get us out by christmas becausewe were starting yeah, so I
wanted to see up by christmas,so so instead of pushing it
through, so what they did?
they actually use, uh, like theprobationary course.
(10:23):
So instead of having X amountof months for our study, that
they sort of compressed it up abit, and that's what I think.
So in the middle of that, therewas the floods at Charleville,
so we actually spent I think itwas one or two I can't remember
the exact time and whether itwas one or two weeks at
Charleville helping clean up forthe floods.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So that would have been.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
No, Charters Towers, I think it was.
Yeah, no, I think it wasCharters Towers.
Sorry, my apologies, they allstart with C.
Geography is not my strongpoint, but Charters Towers it
was yeah, so we went out and.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Country Queensland.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Country, Queensland.
Yeah, yeah, so we went outthere and the floods were really
bad and so we went and cleanedthe hospitals and all that sort
of stuff and we lived in tentsout there.
It was funny they had theprisoners out there too, the
very low security ones, and weactually played a touch football
game against them for thepublic and all that sort of
stuff and being cheered to thetown and all that sort of thing.
(11:20):
So I got gastroenteritis andgot flown home.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
so that was a great time for me, you would have been
living back at the Academy byyourself then were you.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I did get back there by myself, yeah, but there was
only a couple of days left inour trip anyway.
But yeah, so the thing is.
So they sort of shortened ourcourse a bit because I wanted to
see it by Christmas.
There was a couple of us thatcouldn't go because they hadn't
quite reached 18 years old.
So it was quite funny.
(11:51):
I remember looking at mygraduation photo and here I am
with my cadet hat and theuniform on and acne all over my
face and it's just like, wow,you know Well, look, I was 21
when I got sworn in, but I wasstill young.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I look at my photo at that age with me and my dad and
it's like, oh, my God, you weresuch a kid.
Yes, it's unbelievable, yeah,so where was your first posting?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Well, I put in for three towns and I got none of
them.
So I ended up at Maryborough,far enough.
I knew nothing of the town, nota thing.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Did you want a country posting or did you want
a city posting?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
No, no, I had put in for Bundaberg, redcliffe.
I can't remember my thirdpreference, yeah, and I, yeah,
and ended up at marabara.
Um, yeah, I was a single guy,18 years old, so fortunately I
think my art from up that way,uh, knew someone, so I moved in
with the bike and that sort ofstuff and, you know, joined the
(13:00):
local footy team and those sortof things.
But I didn't last very longthere.
I ended up, as you know, forthe first year you go through
the different areas and stufflike that.
I ended up at Harvey Bay andthat was great.
That was a very good learningcurve.
I worked with a copper therewho I ran into many years later
(13:21):
in my firefighting role and he'snow a senior sergeant and
working with him back then youthought, no, he would never make
a good boss.
But he got there and he's agreat bloke.
He's a top bloke, don't get mewrong.
But yeah, and he's the sort ofboss that you would want, but
yeah, so no, that was a greatexperience.
And then, yeah, that's sort offunny enough that Harvey Bay is
(13:44):
where I found out about UC Work.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
So, and that leads nicely into my next question,
which is how did you get into UCWork?
Was it something you wanted todo, or did you just fall into it
, or how did that all eventuate?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Well, it's a funny story in the sense of my first
job, which I'll get into shortly.
But I had no idea what it was,never heard of it.
I had no concept of what it was.
What the job was is that one ofthe local coppers.
He'd put a couple of his kids'pushbites into the local charity
shop to be sold and the thingwas that the charity shop got
(14:24):
knocked off and the town ofHarvey Bay back then was a lot,
lot smaller than what it is now.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Oh, it wouldn't have been that big yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
It's a lot smaller.
So the thing was so what he didthe day we found out.
He went round to all theschools to try and look at all
the bike racks, to try and findbikes, and he found it at one of
the local high schools and thetwo bikes were chained together.
So I thought and I was workingthat day and I lived across the
road from work, so that wasfantastic, the community was
(14:54):
awesome.
So they said to me go home, getchanged and clothes, and then
what they want me to do is theywant me to stand, stand outside
the school, so when the kidscome and get the bikes, you sort
of go and get the kids, wave usdown and we'll come down and
grab them.
Yeah, okay, that's pretty cool,awesome.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So I went home and put on wasn't like this, but it
was, yeah you still would, yeah,you still would have been you
know 19 or 20, then wouldn't you.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
I was still yeah, I was 19.
No, I was still.
I hope you made that would havebeen.
No, I was still yeah.
I would have just yeah aroundjust over 19.
I was at the time.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So you probably would have looked like a school kid
anyway.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I did and that's why they picked me.
Yeah, because you look at thetime.
So you probably would havelooked like a school kid anyway
I did and that's why they pickedme.
Yeah, because you look at theother coppers there, most of
them were obviously in theirearly 40s or probably 50s.
Being as small, sleepy town asit was, I was a kid compared to
them.
So anyway, I stood there andthe school bell rings and no one
sort of come up to me and thatsort of stuff.
(16:03):
Back in those days it was a loteasier to stand out in front of
schools when we had too manytroubles.
The kids come and got theirbikes and I had my badge sort of
tucked in.
I said, hey, boys, we've workedhere, get us to come and stand
over here.
I waved the cars and they'dcome charging down.
Long story short, they pickedup these two fellas who'd
knocked off the charity shop andthey actually picked them up
for about eight break and entersacross the whole area.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
So yeah, and they were high school kids.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
No, high school kids, yeah, just young high school
kids too.
From memory I think, I thinkthey were only like 14 or
something like that from memory.
But how that got me into UCwork was there was a guy from
the dog squad that was a part ofthis little operation that we
had.
He said, oh, you ever thoughtof undercover work?
I said, what's that?
And he sort of told me, yeah,it sounds pretty cool.
(16:53):
So, yeah, I looked into it abit more and applied for the
course and did the course thenext year did the course the
next year.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
So now I go into a little bit of the course on my,
in my, in my um other podcast,uh, on the other series, just
briefly and and you've listenedto that same, similar sort of
thing, or had it had, mine sortof, because I think I was a
group, uh, a group two or threeafter you, wasn't yeah, well, I
was number three.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I think my course was number three, I think, of the
course they had developed.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I don't know if they still had numbers for yours when
they got to the, when they gotto yours, I can't remember it
was too long ago.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, it is the only reason I remember, because we
had we got shirts at the time,so well, so do we, so do we, but
I?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
I that shirt got thrown out long ago.
It's been 30 years since I didit.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, so the thing was it was a three-week course,
it was at a police establishment, but it wasn't.
It was a police college, but itwasn't Like they used it for
officer development and all thatsort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So it wasn't, so it wasn't at the academy.
No development, all that sortof stuff, so it wasn't.
So wasn't that the academy?
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Chelmer, I don't think the building's there
anymore, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I don't think it is either.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
No, so the thing is, but we did a lot in the local
areas and stuff like that aswell, out in the public, yeah,
doing things and stuff like that.
And it's funny.
There's two distinct things Iremember from the course.
I remember I think it's thesame with yourself, you do a
psychological profile before yougo in and all that sort of
stuff.
And they had this talk to me atthe end of it and they said, oh
, you know, looking at yourprofile, it looks like you're
(18:35):
worried about your health.
I said, oh yeah, great, yeah,thanks.
I didn't know at the time I was19, I was nuts there what he
meant by that.
A little older now I understandwhat it was about.
But um, but the other thing Iremember is after my sister said
my past and that sort of stuffand that they said two things.
(18:55):
They said they're either gonnathink you're an idiot or a clown
.
But oh thanks, either one worksyeah did you embrace either of
those?
well, the thing is I I try tolive that way with people and,
as you can see from my outfit, II I try to make people.
(19:17):
I try and make people smilewhile I can and like like
wearing these outfits, forexample, people, uh, engage with
me.
I have no like wearing theseoutfits.
For example, people are engagedwith me.
I have no clue who they areLike.
For example, last night me andmy mate were out just at a local
brew house.
People said oh, I love youroutfit, mate, it's awesome and
that's part of the reason I doit and I think that's gone with
(19:39):
me through my life.
Even though everything I'vebeen through that external
persona of trying to make otherpeople smile, I still try to
live to that.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
And that's fair enough.
I guess it was more the fact.
So one of the fellas I wentthrough who I'm good mates with
or was good mates with, havebeen out of the job, but we
catch up every now and then.
Everyone thought he was simple.
So he played to that.
Yeah, yeah, he's not, he's avery intelligent fella, but he
played up to that, okay.
(20:13):
So what was the most difficultpart of being at UC for you, and
how long did you do it for?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I did the two years similar to yourself, because I
think that was that decision.
That two years was about theright sort of time.
There was one that had donemore time, but he was a bit
older and a bit wiser than whatI was.
But the thing was the hardestpart about it is being who you
(20:45):
are, in the sense that you livethis life of this other person.
You know you've said in yourpodcast how you're interested in
acting and stuff like that.
I had that.
I had a little bit of that whenI do the musicals in high
school and stuff like that, bill1.10, and sometimes my life
sucks.
So I love being someone else.
So the hardest part was knowingwhat you could tell people when
(21:09):
you could like.
When I first got the job in UC,I moved back to Brisbane and
moved in with my then girlfriend, bill 1.10, and the thing is it
was hard to say Well, what do Itell her?
What do I don't tell her?
You know, what can I tell myparents?
What can I tell my parents?
You know those sorts of things.
That was probably the hardestpart, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
What did you tell them?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yep, sorry.
Well, the funny thing is Ididn't tell my parents much to
start with and that changed.
And when we get to that storyI'll I'll explain why that's the
case okay yeah, but the thingis with with my girlfriend, um,
I I probably didn't let her inas much as a robin roddard
(21:54):
should and and that was on me.
You know I was still I was only20 at the time, so I was still
young and ignorant that sort ofstuff.
And here I am playing with thebig boys sort of thing and, you
know, getting to be this big,cool undercover copper.
You know, growing my hair out,getting a beard.
You know People think I was 30.
Hey, really, I actually had oneof my targets say to me oh man,
(22:22):
you look a bit 30.
Yeah, thanks, mate, I didn'ttell you how old I really was.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, that's fair enough.
What's a common myth aboutbeing an undercover cop, do you
think?
The biggest one?
I think, and you've touched onit quite a lot is the glamour.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Like there was other guys doing jobs that were down
the Gold Coast and stuff likethat.
I didn't do any jobs myselfdown that way.
I mean neither, really no yeah,and I've heard Keith's stories a
few times, not only in yourinterview but in other ways and
stuff like that.
But I actually did go downbecause I had a controller that
was doing one of my jobs and hewas also controlling one down
(23:07):
the coast as well.
Then I'd go and see him downthere and the thing is, even
that wasn't glamorous.
It's all hard work.
Sure, there's no forms to fillin and stuff like that, but
there's so much paperwork andyour notes, all that other stuff
, all the accounting's.
No forms to fill in and stufflike that, but there's so much
paperwork You've got to do yournotes.
Yeah, you have all that otherstuff, all the accounting you've
(23:27):
got to do.
Yes, every dollar you spend,you've still got to account for
it and all that sort of stuff.
The thing is you can't getreceipts full, but you've still
got to account for where youspent it.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, the old beer coaster.
I did this there you go in thepot.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, that's it so what's something surprising you
learnt about yourself doingundercover.
It's funny, but it took me alot, a lot of time to appreciate
the skills and talents Ilearned doing the job.
Like you know, when you, whenyou come out I haven't got to
(24:09):
the part where you've come outyet from your podcast yet, but
but coming out from from covertback into the general policing,
that's the stuff.
Yeah, oh, you're only coveredhere Big deal.
So what wasn't too many yearslater to appreciate the memory
exercises that are good?
My memory can actually be Bill1.21.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Even after a few drinks.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Bill 1.22, yeah, and other things, but the thing is,
yeah, so having that memory, youknow, your attention to detail,
you know, like when you, whenyou walk into a room like I a
fireman now but you're lookingat the exits when you walk into
a room, you know it's thingslike that.
(24:51):
But the other big skill that Ihave because I dealt with a lot
of, I'll say, multiculturalpeople in my undercover days,
learning to talk to them as inyou know, obviously there's a
lot of language barriers andstuff like that Be friendly with
them and all that sort of stuff.
So being able to do that invarious situations and stuff
(25:13):
like that.
But also pressure, you know,you hear about the story in
Keith's book, about, you know,he had a shotgun sort of held to
him, that sort of stuff, and Ithought, well, yeah, I was
fortunate never to have thatsituation, but you're going for
a job interview.
I think why am I so stressedabout this?
(25:34):
You know I've done this.
All this other stuff.
You know these are people Iknow and you know yeah, it can
put some things into perspective.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
I guess in in in that respect, yeah, um, it's quite
funny talking about coming outand right, I right, I haven't
got there yet and I don't wantto spoil my future episode.
I guess when you came out, didyou go straight back into
uniform and was it regional orlocal?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Fortunately it was sort of local to my local area,
in the sense I don't want tomention the station, but because
the boss I had was an absolutetwat.
He loved telling a story, buthe was absolutely useless to me
because in my last year of COVIDI was actually saying to the
management and that sort ofstuff I'm going to struggle
(26:29):
going from doing this jobstraight back in uniform because
there was no transition, no,nothing, as I used to say.
The story was one day the guyswant to have a beer with you.
The next day you've had a shaveand a haircut and they want to
punch you in the face.
Yeah, and that's how it was.
That's how it was Like I hadmeetings with BCI.
(26:51):
It was like the intelligenceunit in at headquarters at the
time, um, because I did have, Idid have some technical skills
and stuff like that I, um, theydid have a position for me.
But the thing is, because itwasn't a proper position and
hadn't been advertised and allthat sort of stuff, my, the boss
of the use of the boss ofcovert, said no, no, you've got
(27:11):
to go back to uniform, you'vegot to go back and and I think
that was one of the things thatcame out of previous uh
iterations was that you neededto go back into uniform to be a
police officer again yeah andthat, yeah, and, and they
thought that, that you know thatclean break and know,
(27:33):
admittedly, the process we wentthrough to go back was different
.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
We had psychologists who you had sat down and had a
chat with and that sort of stuff.
So there was a little bit morethan when you went through, but
it was still.
You finish up this day.
I think I had a week off andthen bang in uniform with my
hair cut, you know, or actuallymy hair grown no beard, no nose
ring, no earring, um, you know,in a shiny blue uniform that was
(27:59):
a size too small.
Yeah, spent far too much timeon these things than exercising.
Um, and look, rightly orwrongly, when you went through,
it wasn't as sophisticated aswhen I went through, and it
(28:20):
still wasn't great, and it'sonly you know.
I think they recognise them.
Let's face it, the one thingabout police forces is that
they're very, very slow atrecognising and embracing change
.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, I think it's all government departments.
I don't think it's justreserved to the police.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
No, you're probably.
Yeah, probably true.
Probably true.
How much longer did you stay inthe police after you came out
of the UC stuff?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Well, I suppose it was fortunate that the station I
went to I had a guy I actuallywent through the academy with,
so he was really great, thatsort of stuff, lovely bloke.
But I was still, because thatwas when they put the shift
roster in and you'd have to payand all that stuff.
I can't remember the exactterms I was using for it, but I
only lasted about eight monthsthere and then I got a job in
(29:10):
the intelligence and and then Igot a job in the intelligence
and training, yep.
So and the thing was I wasn'tbig on shift work at the time
because I was still.
I was struggling mentally andthat sort of stuff, not to the
extent.
That happened much later.
But yeah, I just needed someroutine and that sort of stuff.
And obviously, as you know, asa police officer, your roster
(29:32):
changes.
You know, talking to some cop,was there?
roster doesn come out, you know,no, no, it's seven or eight
days ahead sort of thing,sometimes yeah and um, and back
then that was about the same forus.
So, um, so I got a job inintelligence and training and
that was pretty.
That wasn't too bad because Istarted working technology and
stuff like that.
You know, I was using computerprograms and it's something I
(29:54):
had niche for.
Um, and I've got to trainpeople and I'm good at talking
to people and training, so butthe thing was, is that again the
senior sergeant?
He then when he needed someonefor like the comms room?
Because back in those days wedid the comms room um, yeah he
said I need you for the commsroom.
I thought really.
There you go.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I have to talk to people.
Come on, that's it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
I have to do my job that I'm trained for.
Yeah, I have to answer thephone.
Yeah, so the thing is.
But so from there on,throughout the rest of my career
, whilst I was a uniformedofficer, I actually never went
back into general duties afterthat.
Okay fair enough, yeah, and Ilasted another five years or so
just over five years afterwards.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
I'll come back to that because there's a couple of
other things I want to exploreabout the UC work.
What was the most interestingjob you did?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Most interesting job.
Like, the most interesting jobI did was, as we've established,
I was pretty young and thatsort of stuff.
I even looked younger.
Even with the beard I looked abit older.
But the thing is I still didn'thave that maturity that some of
the other guys did and thatsort of stuff and that was fine.
(31:20):
But I, um, I was placed intothis, uh, so it's a mining town
for lack of a better term backin the day, and it put me up in
a cave in the um.
The informant didn't even livein town anymore.
He moved out, but the thing isthere was only two people in
town who knew who I was, who'smy controller who, who lived in
a unit in town and the detectivewho arranged the op.
Anyway, the informant come in,introduced me to just one of the
(31:42):
low level guys in town who'ssort of a bit of a, at the time
a sporting celebrity in the townwho'd lived in the same, just
happened to live in the samecaravan park that I did.
And yeah, and we took theSporting celebrity living in a
caravan park.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
That's yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Well, it was the 90s, you know, it's a small town,
anyway.
So the thing was it was for amarijuana job.
So the thing is the job was toget to the people who were
bringing the marijuana into townand they knew it was coming
from the next major city throughthe through.
This one guy not not the guythat I was introduced to, anyway
(32:22):
, they introduced this guy.
You know, we hung out, we drunkbeers, you know watching play
sport, all that sort of stuff,uh.
And then I got to meet one ofthe targets of the operation,
who was the boss in the townbuying off him and that sort of
stuff.
Funny thing is I was hanging outwith a couple of the guys and
(32:47):
they said let's go score.
I said I'll drive.
So I dropped because I knew,because I'd be buying off this
guy anyway.
So I ran into his place andthey did the deal right in front
of me.
That's the stuff that I've justthought.
This is fantastic evidence,this is awesome and anyway, yeah
, and so the thing is it wasonly about a three or four month
(33:07):
open that stuff.
And the last one was it was notquite a buy bust, it was what
it was.
It was a large deal, so I thinkI bought half a pound.
Yeah, I was trying to.
Oh sorry, that's what, that'swhat I was trying to buy half a
pound.
So what I did?
I met, I met my guy from the,from the town, and we met the
main supplier from the big smokeanyway.
(33:29):
So we met in this car park andall this sort of thing and I,
you know, we did the barterthing and that sort of stuff.
He said, no, no, no, I wantthis much.
I said, fine, this is what I'vegot.
Can't believe.
It Said, oh, I'm going to takean ounce out.
Yeah, whatever, mate, this iswhat I got, anyway.
So they all picked up the nextday and stuff like that.
That was hilarious because Ilistened to just one of your
(33:52):
episodes recently where thetargets now that the guys being
interviewed saying, oh, I'venever met him, never met Garth
at all, who's he?
So in the interview get out,mate, here you go.
Yes, yesterday we did this,this and this and that was it.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
He just he just shut up Bill 1.01.04.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
he had nothing after that so that was probably the
biggest one was because theyfollowed the guy after we did
that deal that afternoon andhe'd taken the money to the
local casino and was putting itthrough there.
So they were able to establishwhere he was putting the money
and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So yeah, I don't think I was very popular in that
town after that.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, he was cleaning it, so I don't think I was very
popular in that town afterwardsbecause obviously I stopped the
marijuana supply to that wholetown.
That was probably my biggestand best job, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
How many jobs did you do?
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Well, this is the thing Since you've asked me to
come onto this show, I've beenthinking about that, and I've
been thinking about it for a fewyears, because I was in there
for two years and my memory, aswe've discussed in the final is
my memory is not that great.
At those times, I remember myvery first job, which I want to
tell the story of.
I've got to tell the story of.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
And I did that job I just mentioned.
That was towards the end of myfirst year, then the second year
.
I've just done a few sporadicjobs and I don't remember the
specific details.
I remember one I was buyingheroin from a Vietnamese person.
It was again similar to whatyou say, luke.
I guess I drive to the car park, I go up and talk to them and
(35:31):
no, they wouldn't give me themoney, they wouldn't give me the
gear.
I'd have to give them money,then follow them in their car
and they'd throw the gear outthe window.
Then you'd have to pull up andtry and find it.
And they're throwing it on theside of the road in front of a
school.
And just think really.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
And it's a school day .
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, it's amazing how their mind works.
All right, so I, I, I was gonnaI get you to tell some stories,
but we might as well jump inthere, but just before we do,
one of the things you mentionedwas, obviously, I use the, the,
the, uh, my alter ego, michaelbates, yep, um, or different
forms of that.
You were saying you didn't havethat much of a unique name.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
No, I wasn't very imaginative.
And the thing is, this is oneof the things that surprised me
when I first started, if youdon't mind me taking a step back
a little bit is that when Ifirst started we had a barbecue
and the bosses got all thecurrent UCs together and all the
new ones coming into the squadand we have a barbecue and have
a chat and that sort of stuffand that sort of stuff.
(36:41):
And then afterwards the boyswould say come on, we'll go tell
you how it really works.
And that was great.
That was fantastic because youunderstood the job a bit more.
But I didn't understand and thisis my brain it didn't
understand actually how to dothe job itself, as in, how do
you talk to people.
You know, because I remember Iactually do remember one of the
(37:02):
jobs I got sent on.
I didn't have an informantbecause the informant had left
town.
But they want to be going tothis pub and meet people and
talk to people and try and getinto the scene and all that sort
of stuff for them.
I have no clue what the freakI'm doing, you know like did.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Did that?
Did it work, or did it raisered flags or no?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
I I can't remember how long that job lasted.
It didn't last very long and itdidn't sort of go anywhere.
I, I'll be honest, my memoriesthat bad.
I think I made like two orthree buys at the most.
I cost that, you know.
I think it was like made liketwo or three buys at the most.
I think it was like one, maybetwo months at last at the most.
I can't remember exactly.
But without any intro, wedidn't have any targets to who I
(37:43):
was actually targeting and itwas really confusing.
So, whereas, like me personally, I would have liked to have
gone on, I think that thethought at the time was they
don't want to expose otherconverts to targets, so they,
they keep you separate.
So the thing so the thing is mything is you know how best to
(38:05):
learn the job?
By actually doing it withsomeone.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Well, yeah, and that's that was sort of
something that keith raised inhis yeah, in his stuff was that
that was how the training wasbefore they had the course, was
that you would go out withsomeone else and learn the ropes
, so to speak.
So the job you were talkingabout, where that you wanted to
tell the story about.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Sorry, I just love this story.
No, no that's okay.
And it goes back to the reason.
After this I told my parentswhere I was going, because what
happened was I got this jobwhere I was going to an island
resort, okay, so what themanagement were worried about,
that'd be tough.
Yeah, it was a real hard sell,I can tell you.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
All right, we'll leave part one of my interview
with Garth Kirkwood there.
Part two is right next door, somake sure you grab that and
have a listen and find out abouthis job on his luxury holiday
island.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
(39:08):
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'llagain explore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
(39:28):
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a glint
into something you will likelynever get to experience Uncover
the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me Jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police officer
myself, as we navigate throughthese stories on Behind the Thin
Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome to Behind the Thin BlueLine a Whisper in the Shadows
(01:30):
podcast, where I explore thehuman side of policing and law
enforcement.
I hope you're enjoying ourconversations with former and
current officers, where we delveinto the complexity of policing
and how it affects the humanside of a police officer as a
person.
I'm Jason Somerville and I wasa Queensland police officer for
nearly 14 years, as well as anundercover cop for two of those
years.
You'll have been listening tomy stories of my time working
(01:51):
undercover through my alter ego,michael Bates.
Well, I've decided it is timewe heard from other cops and let
them tell their stories.
Today I'm chatting with GarthKirkwood, who is a former police
officer and also a formerundercover officer based in
Queensland.
Good afternoon, garth.
How are you, mate?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Wonderful Jason, Thanks for having me online.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Mate, thanks for agreeing to join the podcast and
agreeing to have a chat aboutboth your general policing and
your undercover policingexperiences.
Usually, I start this withasking you to give us a brief
overview of what you currentlydo and where you currently do it
, if that's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Mate, I left the police many years ago and now
I'm a firefighter.
These days, as you probablywell know, there's a bit of a
rivalry between the police andthe fireys and that sort of
stuff, and I love my job, it's,you know.
Hopefully we'll talk about itlater, but what I wanted to do
growing up is that I want tohelp people, and I get to do
that every day at my job andsleep most nights and lift heavy
weights.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
well, look at me, I'm not looking at those heavy
weights, but that's the, that's,uh, the general consensus of
what the coppers think of us.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
yes, yeah, the stereotype, that's right, All
right.
So going back to, I guess, whatyou just said there what did
you want to be when you were akid, and why?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, like as I said now, I love helping people and
growing up I didn't have a lotof friends, so helping people
was a way for me to connect topeople and, the thing is,
without the social pressures of,you know, having to know what
to say and all that sort ofstuff.
So I loved helping people, Iplayed sport and that sort of
stuff and those little things.
(03:35):
So when I got towards highschool and that sort of stuff,
you know I love computers andtechnology and stuff like that
and so, but I couldn't see acareer in that at that time
because of yeah, back in the 80s, as you know, technology wasn't
really there was no Apple Bill1.20 Well, no, not that exactly.
You know, I still remember myfirst computer little program I
(03:57):
wrote when I was in primaryschool but that was, yeah, that
was doing.
But my mother, my mother was apostal manager for Australia
Post and she worked forAustralia Post for many, many
years, Yep, and she got me asummer job helping sorting mail
and that sort of stuff, which ispart of what a postman did.
(04:18):
So the thing is I did that andI was actually pretty good at it
because of the way my brainworks, you know, with those
patterns and all that sort ofstuff.
So a mate of mine was also apoliceman at the time, a very
close friend.
He was in mobile patrols, Ithink at the time, and you hear
some of the stories he wastelling you about and you were
(04:40):
around that time, so you knowwhat mobile patrols were doing
at that time.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yep, yep, you know you're around that time, so you
know what my old patrols weredoing at that time.
So, yeah, yeah, yep.
So I thought, oh, we arepleasing.
You know, I was bullied alittle bit at school and that
sort of stuff, and I was neververy confident.
That's what stuff.
So I thought, well, how can Iget back at the bullies and all
that sort of stuff?
I thought that's the power, thepower.
But but it was more aboutwanting to help people and I
remember in my application Iactually wrote that.
So you know, I'd love to helppeople.
(05:04):
And uh, and the thing was I gotthrough to the uh, the police
academy as a cadet back then andyeah, and if I hadn't gotten
that, the guy from the postoffice offered me a job, so so
I'd be wearing a blue uniform atthe time, whether it was police
or posting.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
So I was just I just about to say it would have been
a blue uniform either way.
In regards to the bullies,because that's a, you know
something that I suffer from aswell, and I make mention of it
in one of my um, yes, uh stories.
Um, did you ever come acrossanyone that you that had bullied
(05:41):
you when, uh, when you were apolice officer?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
it's well, there's a, there's a funny story like
playing football in the localcommunity, that sort of stuff.
You got to know people andthat's the stuff.
I wouldn't call him a bullythat this guy bullied, but he he
was a rep football player so hehad that arrogance and air
about him and I remember, uh, Iwas that, uh, the group of these
football blokes had come to myarea.
(06:05):
They were going to a concert atthe local pub and I was working
that night and I saw this guy.
I saw the guy so I pulled upand I was working at the time.
I said, oh, get a guy, seewho's going.
Yeah, good, good, good, downthis little alleyway.
There was a guy taking a leakin the alleyway, yep, and I've
(06:25):
just gone've just gone.
What are you doing?
and he's turned around and seenthe copper and the cop car, oh
yeah, and he's um, yeah, oh, andhe's walked out and seen this
man, oh yeah, everyone got agreat laugh of it all his mates
did and that sort of stuff.
But but afterwards it was thatsort of thing that made me feel
good about being a copper, inthe sense that he was this
person that was arrogant as allhell you know, but I was able to
(06:48):
have a joke with him.
But the thing is, and yeah,sort of bringing down a few pegs
, sort of thing yep, yeah, no,that that's fair enough.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Um, something else you, something else you touched
on was that in your applicationyou wrote that you wanted to
help people.
That's right.
Was that questioned when you,when you went through the
interview process and I'll cometo how, how that worked, but
yeah, were you questioned aboutthat?
Or did they make any commentaround that from you, gotta?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
admit, this is yeah many, many years ago.
So yeah I haven't done them,haven't done the math recently
um they did I do 35, but let'snot go there yeah, yeah, they
did mention, they did saysomething about that sort of
stuff and that they thought itwas a great way of wanting to do
that, uh, of coming in policingfor that.
So I'd actually quite enjoyedthat part of it.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
From where I report so talk to me about the whole
process.
Um, I've I've spoken about theprocess that that I went through
and you know interviews andacademy and and all that sort of
stuff.
What, uh, mine was a bitdifferent because, uh, as we
were talking about prior tostarting um, I was part of the
first 400 um of the, the, thenew era um, so we had a
(08:02):
completely different process tothose that came before us.
So talk through the processfrom when you applied to
actually first day on the job,not on the job, first day at the
academy.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, well, to get to that first day, obviously there
was the written up, there wasthe application process and
stuff like that, because I wasapplying as what was called the
cadet back in those days.
So what you could do, you couldleave high school and go
straight into the police service, and at the time I applied it
was an 18-month course with aminimum of 12 months living.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
So did you leave?
Did you finish grade 12 or didyou?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
No.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I did finish grade 12 and go through.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, yeah, that was the process.
I got to to you speak to someof the older boys back in those
days and, yeah, they went anddid 11 and 12, I think.
Keith, I think, mentioned itand he's in his 11 12 yeah, yeah
, yeah, so with with my cohort,though.
no, we finished grade 12 andthen uh did, did the, uh, the
academy's thing.
Yeah, you did your application.
(09:05):
You had to.
There was a couple of writtentests, and the only one I can
remember is the essay, which isthe one where I write about
wanting to help people, so, andthen they had the interview and
so on and so forth, and theyasked you, like, what do you
think your TE score is going tobe?
And all that sort of stuff.
And you know, I, eight, highsevens, low eights, you know.
You know, for those didn't know, 990 was the top at that at
(09:28):
that time I ended up gettinglike just above average 735.
So so, yeah, I wasn't a greatstudent, but but the thing was,
yeah, so that's how I got to theacademy, uh, got in there and
that sort of stuff, and therewas four cadet groups of 25
students each, all male I thinkwe were, yeah, we were all male
(09:50):
at that stage.
So no females in any of ourgroups.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
So you did 18 months, and 12 months was live-in.
The first 12 months was live-in.
Well, that was what I appliedfor, right, okay?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
That's what I applied for.
Yeah, so it actually changedpart way through, so not long.
I don't remember exactly whenit changed over, but they
changed it to like a 10 monthprogram because they wanted to
get us out by christmas becausewe were starting yeah, so I
wanted to see up by christmas,so so instead of pushing it
through, so what they did?
they actually use, uh, like theprobationary course.
(10:23):
So instead of having X amountof months for our study, that
they sort of compressed it up abit, and that's what I think.
So in the middle of that, therewas the floods at Charleville,
so we actually spent I think itwas one or two I can't remember
the exact time and whether itwas one or two weeks at
Charleville helping clean up forthe floods.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So that would have been.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
No, Charters Towers, I think it was.
Yeah, no, I think it wasCharters Towers.
Sorry, my apologies, they allstart with C.
Geography is not my strongpoint, but Charters Towers it
was yeah, so we went out and.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Country Queensland.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Country, Queensland.
Yeah, yeah, so we went outthere and the floods were really
bad and so we went and cleanedthe hospitals and all that sort
of stuff and we lived in tentsout there.
It was funny they had theprisoners out there too, the
very low security ones, and weactually played a touch football
game against them for thepublic and all that sort of
stuff and being cheered to thetown and all that sort of thing.
(11:20):
So I got gastroenteritis andgot flown home.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
so that was a great time for me, you would have been
living back at the Academy byyourself then were you.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I did get back there by myself, yeah, but there was
only a couple of days left inour trip anyway.
But yeah, so the thing is.
So they sort of shortened ourcourse a bit because I wanted to
see it by Christmas.
There was a couple of us thatcouldn't go because they hadn't
quite reached 18 years old.
So it was quite funny.
(11:51):
I remember looking at mygraduation photo and here I am
with my cadet hat and theuniform on and acne all over my
face and it's just like, wow,you know Well, look, I was 21
when I got sworn in, but I wasstill young.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I look at my photo at that age with me and my dad and
it's like, oh, my God, you weresuch a kid.
Yes, it's unbelievable, yeah,so where was your first posting?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Well, I put in for three towns and I got none of
them.
So I ended up at Maryborough,far enough.
I knew nothing of the town, nota thing.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Did you want a country posting or did you want
a city posting?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
No, no, I had put in for Bundaberg, redcliffe.
I can't remember my thirdpreference, yeah, and I, yeah,
and ended up at marabara.
Um, yeah, I was a single guy,18 years old, so fortunately I
think my art from up that way,uh, knew someone, so I moved in
with the bike and that sort ofstuff and, you know, joined the
(13:00):
local footy team and those sortof things.
But I didn't last very longthere.
I ended up, as you know, forthe first year you go through
the different areas and stufflike that.
I ended up at Harvey Bay andthat was great.
That was a very good learningcurve.
I worked with a copper therewho I ran into many years later
(13:21):
in my firefighting role and he'snow a senior sergeant and
working with him back then youthought, no, he would never make
a good boss.
But he got there and he's agreat bloke.
He's a top bloke, don't get mewrong.
But yeah, and he's the sort ofboss that you would want, but
yeah, so no, that was a greatexperience.
And then, yeah, that's sort offunny enough that Harvey Bay is
(13:44):
where I found out about UC Work.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
So, and that leads nicely into my next question,
which is how did you get into UCWork?
Was it something you wanted todo, or did you just fall into it
, or how did that all eventuate?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Well, it's a funny story in the sense of my first
job, which I'll get into shortly.
But I had no idea what it was,never heard of it.
I had no concept of what it was.
What the job was is that one ofthe local coppers.
He'd put a couple of his kids'pushbites into the local charity
shop to be sold and the thingwas that the charity shop got
(14:24):
knocked off and the town ofHarvey Bay back then was a lot,
lot smaller than what it is now.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Oh, it wouldn't have been that big yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
It's a lot smaller.
So the thing was so what he didthe day we found out.
He went round to all theschools to try and look at all
the bike racks, to try and findbikes, and he found it at one of
the local high schools and thetwo bikes were chained together.
So I thought and I was workingthat day and I lived across the
road from work, so that wasfantastic, the community was
(14:54):
awesome.
So they said to me go home, getchanged and clothes, and then
what they want me to do is theywant me to stand, stand outside
the school, so when the kidscome and get the bikes, you sort
of go and get the kids, wave usdown and we'll come down and
grab them.
Yeah, okay, that's pretty cool,awesome.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So I went home and put on wasn't like this, but it
was, yeah you still would, yeah,you still would have been you
know 19 or 20, then wouldn't you.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
I was still yeah, I was 19.
No, I was still.
I hope you made that would havebeen.
No, I was still yeah.
I would have just yeah aroundjust over 19.
I was at the time.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So you probably would have looked like a school kid
anyway.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I did and that's why they picked me.
Yeah, because you look at thetime.
So you probably would havelooked like a school kid anyway
I did and that's why they pickedme.
Yeah, because you look at theother coppers there, most of
them were obviously in theirearly 40s or probably 50s.
Being as small, sleepy town asit was, I was a kid compared to
them.
So anyway, I stood there andthe school bell rings and no one
sort of come up to me and thatsort of stuff.
(16:03):
Back in those days it was a loteasier to stand out in front of
schools when we had too manytroubles.
The kids come and got theirbikes and I had my badge sort of
tucked in.
I said, hey, boys, we've workedhere, get us to come and stand
over here.
I waved the cars and they'dcome charging down.
Long story short, they pickedup these two fellas who'd
knocked off the charity shop andthey actually picked them up
for about eight break and entersacross the whole area.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
So yeah, and they were high school kids.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
No, high school kids, yeah, just young high school
kids too.
From memory I think, I thinkthey were only like 14 or
something like that from memory.
But how that got me into UCwork was there was a guy from
the dog squad that was a part ofthis little operation that we
had.
He said, oh, you ever thoughtof undercover work?
I said, what's that?
And he sort of told me, yeah,it sounds pretty cool.
(16:53):
So, yeah, I looked into it abit more and applied for the
course and did the course thenext year did the course the
next year.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
So now I go into a little bit of the course on my,
in my, in my um other podcast,uh, on the other series, just
briefly and and you've listenedto that same, similar sort of
thing, or had it had, mine sortof, because I think I was a
group, uh, a group two or threeafter you, wasn't yeah, well, I
was number three.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I think my course was number three, I think, of the
course they had developed.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I don't know if they still had numbers for yours when
they got to the, when they gotto yours, I can't remember it
was too long ago.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, it is the only reason I remember, because we
had we got shirts at the time,so well, so do we, so do we, but
I?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
I that shirt got thrown out long ago.
It's been 30 years since I didit.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, so the thing was it was a three-week course,
it was at a police establishment, but it wasn't.
It was a police college, but itwasn't Like they used it for
officer development and all thatsort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So it wasn't, so it wasn't at the academy.
No development, all that sortof stuff, so it wasn't.
So wasn't that the academy?
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Chelmer, I don't think the building's there
anymore, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I don't think it is either.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
No, so the thing is, but we did a lot in the local
areas and stuff like that aswell, out in the public, yeah,
doing things and stuff like that.
And it's funny.
There's two distinct things Iremember from the course.
I remember I think it's thesame with yourself, you do a
psychological profile before yougo in and all that sort of
stuff.
And they had this talk to me atthe end of it and they said, oh
, you know, looking at yourprofile, it looks like you're
(18:35):
worried about your health.
I said, oh yeah, great, yeah,thanks.
I didn't know at the time I was19, I was nuts there what he
meant by that.
A little older now I understandwhat it was about.
But um, but the other thing Iremember is after my sister said
my past and that sort of stuffand that they said two things.
(18:55):
They said they're either gonnathink you're an idiot or a clown
.
But oh thanks, either one worksyeah did you embrace either of
those?
well, the thing is I I try tolive that way with people and,
as you can see from my outfit, II I try to make people.
(19:17):
I try and make people smilewhile I can and like like
wearing these outfits, forexample, people, uh, engage with
me.
I have no like wearing theseoutfits.
For example, people are engagedwith me.
I have no clue who they areLike.
For example, last night me andmy mate were out just at a local
brew house.
People said oh, I love youroutfit, mate, it's awesome and
that's part of the reason I doit and I think that's gone with
(19:39):
me through my life.
Even though everything I'vebeen through that external
persona of trying to make otherpeople smile, I still try to
live to that.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
And that's fair enough.
I guess it was more the fact.
So one of the fellas I wentthrough who I'm good mates with
or was good mates with, havebeen out of the job, but we
catch up every now and then.
Everyone thought he was simple.
So he played to that.
Yeah, yeah, he's not, he's avery intelligent fella, but he
played up to that, okay.
(20:13):
So what was the most difficultpart of being at UC for you, and
how long did you do it for?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I did the two years similar to yourself, because I
think that was that decision.
That two years was about theright sort of time.
There was one that had donemore time, but he was a bit
older and a bit wiser than whatI was.
But the thing was the hardestpart about it is being who you
(20:45):
are, in the sense that you livethis life of this other person.
You know you've said in yourpodcast how you're interested in
acting and stuff like that.
I had that.
I had a little bit of that whenI do the musicals in high
school and stuff like that, bill1.10, and sometimes my life
sucks.
So I love being someone else.
So the hardest part was knowingwhat you could tell people when
(21:09):
you could like.
When I first got the job in UC,I moved back to Brisbane and
moved in with my then girlfriend, bill 1.10, and the thing is it
was hard to say Well, what do Itell her?
What do I don't tell her?
You know, what can I tell myparents?
What can I tell my parents?
You know those sorts of things.
That was probably the hardestpart, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
What did you tell them?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yep, sorry.
Well, the funny thing is Ididn't tell my parents much to
start with and that changed.
And when we get to that storyI'll I'll explain why that's the
case okay yeah, but the thingis with with my girlfriend, um,
I I probably didn't let her inas much as a robin roddard
(21:54):
should and and that was on me.
You know I was still I was only20 at the time, so I was still
young and ignorant that sort ofstuff.
And here I am playing with thebig boys sort of thing and, you
know, getting to be this big,cool undercover copper.
You know, growing my hair out,getting a beard.
You know People think I was 30.
Hey, really, I actually had oneof my targets say to me oh man,
(22:22):
you look a bit 30.
Yeah, thanks, mate, I didn'ttell you how old I really was.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, that's fair enough.
What's a common myth aboutbeing an undercover cop, do you
think?
The biggest one?
I think, and you've touched onit quite a lot is the glamour.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Like there was other guys doing jobs that were down
the Gold Coast and stuff likethat.
I didn't do any jobs myselfdown that way.
I mean neither, really no yeah,and I've heard Keith's stories a
few times, not only in yourinterview but in other ways and
stuff like that.
But I actually did go downbecause I had a controller that
was doing one of my jobs and hewas also controlling one down
(23:07):
the coast as well.
Then I'd go and see him downthere and the thing is, even
that wasn't glamorous.
It's all hard work.
Sure, there's no forms to fillin and stuff like that, but
there's so much paperwork andyour notes, all that other stuff
, all the accounting's.
No forms to fill in and stufflike that, but there's so much
paperwork You've got to do yournotes.
Yeah, you have all that otherstuff, all the accounting you've
(23:27):
got to do.
Yes, every dollar you spend,you've still got to account for
it and all that sort of stuff.
The thing is you can't getreceipts full, but you've still
got to account for where youspent it.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, the old beer coaster.
I did this there you go in thepot.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, that's it so what's something surprising you
learnt about yourself doingundercover.
It's funny, but it took me alot, a lot of time to appreciate
the skills and talents Ilearned doing the job.
Like you know, when you, whenyou come out I haven't got to
(24:09):
the part where you've come outyet from your podcast yet, but
but coming out from from covertback into the general policing,
that's the stuff.
Yeah, oh, you're only coveredhere Big deal.
So what wasn't too many yearslater to appreciate the memory
exercises that are good?
My memory can actually be Bill1.21.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Even after a few drinks.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Bill 1.22, yeah, and other things, but the thing is,
yeah, so having that memory, youknow, your attention to detail,
you know, like when you, whenyou walk into a room like I a
fireman now but you're lookingat the exits when you walk into
a room, you know it's thingslike that.
(24:51):
But the other big skill that Ihave because I dealt with a lot
of, I'll say, multiculturalpeople in my undercover days,
learning to talk to them as inyou know, obviously there's a
lot of language barriers andstuff like that Be friendly with
them and all that sort of stuff.
So being able to do that invarious situations and stuff
(25:13):
like that.
But also pressure, you know,you hear about the story in
Keith's book, about, you know,he had a shotgun sort of held to
him, that sort of stuff, and Ithought, well, yeah, I was
fortunate never to have thatsituation, but you're going for
a job interview.
I think why am I so stressedabout this?
(25:34):
You know I've done this.
All this other stuff.
You know these are people Iknow and you know yeah, it can
put some things into perspective.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
I guess in in in that respect, yeah, um, it's quite
funny talking about coming outand right, I right, I haven't
got there yet and I don't wantto spoil my future episode.
I guess when you came out, didyou go straight back into
uniform and was it regional orlocal?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Fortunately it was sort of local to my local area,
in the sense I don't want tomention the station, but because
the boss I had was an absolutetwat.
He loved telling a story, buthe was absolutely useless to me
because in my last year of COVIDI was actually saying to the
management and that sort ofstuff I'm going to struggle
(26:29):
going from doing this jobstraight back in uniform because
there was no transition, no,nothing, as I used to say.
The story was one day the guyswant to have a beer with you.
The next day you've had a shaveand a haircut and they want to
punch you in the face.
Yeah, and that's how it was.
That's how it was Like I hadmeetings with BCI.
(26:51):
It was like the intelligenceunit in at headquarters at the
time, um, because I did have, Idid have some technical skills
and stuff like that I, um, theydid have a position for me.
But the thing is, because itwasn't a proper position and
hadn't been advertised and allthat sort of stuff, my, the boss
of the use of the boss ofcovert, said no, no, you've got
(27:11):
to go back to uniform, you'vegot to go back and and I think
that was one of the things thatcame out of previous uh
iterations was that you neededto go back into uniform to be a
police officer again yeah andthat, yeah, and, and they
thought that, that you know thatclean break and know,
(27:33):
admittedly, the process we wentthrough to go back was different
.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
We had psychologists who you had sat down and had a
chat with and that sort of stuff.
So there was a little bit morethan when you went through, but
it was still.
You finish up this day.
I think I had a week off andthen bang in uniform with my
hair cut, you know, or actuallymy hair grown no beard, no nose
ring, no earring, um, you know,in a shiny blue uniform that was
(27:59):
a size too small.
Yeah, spent far too much timeon these things than exercising.
Um, and look, rightly orwrongly, when you went through,
it wasn't as sophisticated aswhen I went through, and it
(28:20):
still wasn't great, and it'sonly you know.
I think they recognise them.
Let's face it, the one thingabout police forces is that
they're very, very slow atrecognising and embracing change
.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, I think it's all government departments.
I don't think it's justreserved to the police.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
No, you're probably.
Yeah, probably true.
Probably true.
How much longer did you stay inthe police after you came out
of the UC stuff?
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Well, I suppose it was fortunate that the station I
went to I had a guy I actuallywent through the academy with,
so he was really great, thatsort of stuff, lovely bloke.
But I was still, because thatwas when they put the shift
roster in and you'd have to payand all that stuff.
I can't remember the exactterms I was using for it, but I
only lasted about eight monthsthere and then I got a job in
(29:10):
the intelligence and and then Igot a job in the intelligence
and training, yep.
So and the thing was I wasn'tbig on shift work at the time
because I was still.
I was struggling mentally andthat sort of stuff, not to the
extent.
That happened much later.
But yeah, I just needed someroutine and that sort of stuff.
And obviously, as you know, asa police officer, your roster
(29:32):
changes.
You know, talking to some cop,was there?
roster doesn come out, you know,no, no, it's seven or eight
days ahead sort of thing,sometimes yeah and um, and back
then that was about the same forus.
So, um, so I got a job inintelligence and training and
that was pretty.
That wasn't too bad because Istarted working technology and
stuff like that.
You know, I was using computerprograms and it's something I
(29:54):
had niche for.
Um, and I've got to trainpeople and I'm good at talking
to people and training, so butthe thing was, is that again the
senior sergeant?
He then when he needed someonefor like the comms room?
Because back in those days wedid the comms room um, yeah he
said I need you for the commsroom.
I thought really.
There you go.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
I have to talk to people.
Come on, that's it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
I have to do my job that I'm trained for.
Yeah, I have to answer thephone.
Yeah, so the thing is.
But so from there on,throughout the rest of my career
, whilst I was a uniformedofficer, I actually never went
back into general duties afterthat.
Okay fair enough, yeah, and Ilasted another five years or so
just over five years afterwards.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
I'll come back to that because there's a couple of
other things I want to exploreabout the UC work.
What was the most interestingjob you did?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Most interesting job.
Like, the most interesting jobI did was, as we've established,
I was pretty young and thatsort of stuff.
I even looked younger.
Even with the beard I looked abit older.
But the thing is I still didn'thave that maturity that some of
the other guys did and thatsort of stuff and that was fine.
(31:20):
But I, um, I was placed intothis, uh, so it's a mining town
for lack of a better term backin the day, and it put me up in
a cave in the um.
The informant didn't even livein town anymore.
He moved out, but the thing isthere was only two people in
town who knew who I was, who'smy controller who, who lived in
a unit in town and the detectivewho arranged the op.
Anyway, the informant come in,introduced me to just one of the
(31:42):
low level guys in town who'ssort of a bit of a, at the time
a sporting celebrity in the townwho'd lived in the same, just
happened to live in the samecaravan park that I did.
And yeah, and we took theSporting celebrity living in a
caravan park.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
That's yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Well, it was the 90s, you know, it's a small town,
anyway.
So the thing was it was for amarijuana job.
So the thing is the job was toget to the people who were
bringing the marijuana into townand they knew it was coming
from the next major city throughthe through.
This one guy not not the guythat I was introduced to, anyway
(32:22):
, they introduced this guy.
You know, we hung out, we drunkbeers, you know watching play
sport, all that sort of stuff,uh.
And then I got to meet one ofthe targets of the operation,
who was the boss in the townbuying off him and that sort of
stuff.
Funny thing is I was hanging outwith a couple of the guys and
(32:47):
they said let's go score.
I said I'll drive.
So I dropped because I knew,because I'd be buying off this
guy anyway.
So I ran into his place andthey did the deal right in front
of me.
That's the stuff that I've justthought.
This is fantastic evidence,this is awesome and anyway, yeah
, and so the thing is it wasonly about a three or four month
(33:07):
open that stuff.
And the last one was it was notquite a buy bust, it was what
it was.
It was a large deal, so I thinkI bought half a pound.
Yeah, I was trying to.
Oh sorry, that's what, that'swhat I was trying to buy half a
pound.
So what I did?
I met, I met my guy from the,from the town, and we met the
main supplier from the big smokeanyway.
(33:29):
So we met in this car park andall this sort of thing and I,
you know, we did the barterthing and that sort of stuff.
He said, no, no, no, I wantthis much.
I said, fine, this is what I'vegot.
Can't believe.
It Said, oh, I'm going to takean ounce out.
Yeah, whatever, mate, this iswhat I got, anyway.
So they all picked up the nextday and stuff like that.
That was hilarious because Ilistened to just one of your
(33:52):
episodes recently where thetargets now that the guys being
interviewed saying, oh, I'venever met him, never met Garth
at all, who's he?
So in the interview get out,mate, here you go.
Yes, yesterday we did this,this and this and that was it.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
He just he just shut up Bill 1.01.04.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
he had nothing after that so that was probably the
biggest one was because theyfollowed the guy after we did
that deal that afternoon andhe'd taken the money to the
local casino and was putting itthrough there.
So they were able to establishwhere he was putting the money
and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So yeah, I don't think I was very popular in that
town after that.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, he was cleaning it, so I don't think I was very
popular in that town afterwardsbecause obviously I stopped the
marijuana supply to that wholetown.
That was probably my biggestand best job, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
How many jobs did you do?
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Well, this is the thing Since you've asked me to
come onto this show, I've beenthinking about that, and I've
been thinking about it for a fewyears, because I was in there
for two years and my memory, aswe've discussed in the final is
my memory is not that great.
At those times, I remember myvery first job, which I want to
tell the story of.
I've got to tell the story of.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
And I did that job I just mentioned.
That was towards the end of myfirst year, then the second year
.
I've just done a few sporadicjobs and I don't remember the
specific details.
I remember one I was buyingheroin from a Vietnamese person.
It was again similar to whatyou say, luke.
I guess I drive to the car park, I go up and talk to them and
(35:31):
no, they wouldn't give me themoney, they wouldn't give me the
gear.
I'd have to give them money,then follow them in their car
and they'd throw the gear outthe window.
Then you'd have to pull up andtry and find it.
And they're throwing it on theside of the road in front of a
school.
And just think really.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
And it's a school day .
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, it's amazing how their mind works.
All right, so I, I, I was gonnaI get you to tell some stories,
but we might as well jump inthere, but just before we do,
one of the things you mentionedwas, obviously, I use the, the,
the, uh, my alter ego, michaelbates, yep, um, or different
forms of that.
You were saying you didn't havethat much of a unique name.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
No, I wasn't very imaginative.
And the thing is, this is oneof the things that surprised me
when I first started, if youdon't mind me taking a step back
a little bit is that when Ifirst started we had a barbecue
and the bosses got all thecurrent UCs together and all the
new ones coming into the squadand we have a barbecue and have
a chat and that sort of stuffand that sort of stuff.
(36:41):
And then afterwards the boyswould say come on, we'll go tell
you how it really works.
And that was great.
That was fantastic because youunderstood the job a bit more.
But I didn't understand and thisis my brain it didn't
understand actually how to dothe job itself, as in, how do
you talk to people.
You know, because I remember Iactually do remember one of the
(37:02):
jobs I got sent on.
I didn't have an informantbecause the informant had left
town.
But they want to be going tothis pub and meet people and
talk to people and try and getinto the scene and all that sort
of stuff for them.
I have no clue what the freakI'm doing, you know like did.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Did that?
Did it work, or did it raisered flags or no?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
I I can't remember how long that job lasted.
It didn't last very long and itdidn't sort of go anywhere.
I, I'll be honest, my memoriesthat bad.
I think I made like two orthree buys at the most.
I cost that, you know.
I think it was like made liketwo or three buys at the most.
I think it was like one, maybetwo months at last at the most.
I can't remember exactly.
But without any intro, wedidn't have any targets to who I
(37:43):
was actually targeting and itwas really confusing.
So, whereas, like me personally, I would have liked to have
gone on, I think that thethought at the time was they
don't want to expose otherconverts to targets, so they,
they keep you separate.
So the thing so the thing is mything is you know how best to
(38:05):
learn the job?
By actually doing it withsomeone.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Well, yeah, and that's that was sort of
something that keith raised inhis yeah, in his stuff was that
that was how the training wasbefore they had the course, was
that you would go out withsomeone else and learn the ropes
, so to speak.
So the job you were talkingabout, where that you wanted to
tell the story about.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Sorry, I just love this story.
No, no that's okay.
And it goes back to the reason.
After this I told my parentswhere I was going, because what
happened was I got this jobwhere I was going to an island
resort, okay, so what themanagement were worried about,
that'd be tough.
Yeah, it was a real hard sell,I can tell you.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
All right, we'll leave part one of my interview
with Garth Kirkwood there.
Part two is right next door, somake sure you grab that and
have a listen and find out abouthis job on his luxury holiday
island.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
(39:08):
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'llagain explore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
(39:28):
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
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