July 8, 2024 • 40 mins
What happens when an undercover cop's meticulously crafted facade comes crashing down? Join us on Behind the Thin Blue Line as Garth Kirkwood shares a gripping tale from his assignment at a luxury island resort. Garth recounts the tension-filled moments when his cover was almost blown by a former acquaintance. This episode sheds light on the intricate challenges and high stakes of undercover work, revealing how even the best-laid plans can be undone by human connections.
But the journey doesn't end there. We transition into the emotional terrain of mental health in law enforcement, exploring the profound impact of PTSD on veterans and first responders. With insights from organizations like Trojans Trek, we delve into the therapeutic retreats that aid in the transition from policing to new careers in IT and firefighting. The discussion highlights the emotional toll of frontline service and underscores the importance of resilience, effective leadership, and positive reinforcement in fostering a supportive environment.
As the conversation broadens, we touch upon the significance of community and support systems in building resilience and personal growth. Early connections through sports and camaraderie in professional settings have played crucial roles in mental well-being, particularly for those in emergency services. We also discuss the evolving dynamics of support within these professions, emphasizing the critical role of peer support officers. Tune in for a heartfelt exploration of the human stories behind the badge, as we underline the importance of understanding and addressing mental health to navigate the complexities of demanding careers.
During this episode Garth talks about Trojans Trek. More information can be found here - https://trojanstrek.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a glint
into something you will likelynever get to experience Uncover
the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me Jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police officer
myself, as we navigate throughthese stories on Behind the Thin
Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome back to part two of myinterview with Garth Kirkwood.
Listen in now as he recountshis job on the luxury holiday
(01:36):
island.
I got this job where I wasgoing to an island resort, okay.
So what the management wereworried about?
Yeah, it was a real hard, hardsell.
I can tell you I was goingthere just to do a genitalia
walk clean around the pools andall that sort of stuff.
What they were.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
They put me in the room with the target, they
suspect, was bringing marijuanaand stuff into the staff.
So only person you knew I waswas the manager.
Anyway, I've got to the islandand sitting in his office and
that's the stuff, is it?
Oh, you know, is that we've gotyou with this guy and all those
sorts of things?
I said, okay, great, you know,what do you want me to do now?
(02:17):
I started, then took me for atour anyway.
So, but those days the islandresort, it had a like a sporting
hub where you go get yourflippers and all your yeah, yeah
, beach volleyball, all thatstuff.
Anyway, we're walking into this, walking into this area, and
again I've got I think I've gota goby at that time and sort of
(02:39):
a long hair and that stuff, andI'm using Garth and a fake last
name.
Now walk in.
The manager says this is suchand such and this guy behind the
camera says garthy and hestarts to call out my last name
and I said and I call out hisname over the top of my last
name, trying to drown out mylast name.
(02:59):
Yeah, no, this guy was the bestmate of my brother in high
school.
Our families had known eachother for about a good 15 years
because we'd all grown up in thelocal football club.
Anyway, I said, oh no.
He said, mate, I'll catch upwith you later.
I'll talk to you later, anyway,oh no.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
So he was working there or he was on holiday.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
He was working at the resort.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Oh right.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
If it was a holiday mate it probably wouldn't have
been so bad.
But he actually worked there.
The thing is in my brain.
I had no issue with him becauseI knew he'd been in the army
and that sort of stuff, so Iknew I could probably trust him
not too badly.
But later on that afternoon Iwas in my quarters sitting in my
room, that sort of stuff, andhis younger brother walks in oh
(03:55):
no, he's by himself, fortunatelysays what, what are you doing
here?
With a few expletives put inthere, because they knew who I
was, they knew what I was, as inthe sense they knew I was a
copper.
I can't remember what I said,but I knew I couldn't trust this
(04:20):
guy.
I couldn't trust him at allBill 1.20 so what happened
anyway?
I, I, it only I only lastedseven days before they.
They shoved it all down becausethe guy I was rooming with he
did not take to me at all.
He hardly said boo to me youknow he didn't socialize with me
anything like that.
He tried to avoid me where hecould.
(04:41):
So whether the guy I knew toldhim something, I can't say
because I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Or Chinese whispers.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Oh, of course, of course.
No one sort of overtly saidanything to me or anything like
that or dissed me as such.
No one sort of ostracised me oranything like that, thinking it
was bad news or something.
But this, this guy who I wasrooming with, yeah he's, he
definitely had nothing to do?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
did you sleep with one eye open?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
no, the thing was I was 20 and stupid.
This is the thing about thatjob.
Back in that time I I wasignorant to the dangers you you
know.
After that job, where I gotrecognised, you know, it didn't
worry me too much because I gothome and said to my parents I
said, next time I'm going I'mgoing to tell you where I'm
(05:34):
going.
So can you tell me if we knowany people in the town?
And when I said that theydidn't even know, they were
there anyway so it wouldn't havehelped, so it wouldn't have
made a difference?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
um, no, was anything said like so?
When?
When?
Obviously I know the processthat goes through, when that
happens and you go to yourcontroller and you go, hey, I
think we've got a problem, andthen everyone goes in the
background and starts going shit, shit, shit, shit shit when you
come.
When you came back, did anyonesort of go why didn't you tell
us, or anything like that?
No, no, it wasn't, Not that Irecall there was no backdraft or
(06:16):
anything like that, Because Iremember I think I made a phone
call, obviously through themanager.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I made a phone call back to HQ because I didn't have
a controller, because I was onthis island, so it's not really
plausible, yep.
And I rang them and said mate,it's not going real well, mate,
this is what's happened.
And he said I'll leave it acouple of days, see how it goes.
And yeah, it didn't go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
You just didn't take it.
So when I got, home nah.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
And when I got home nah.
And when I got back, what arethey going to say?
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You know, yeah, had a nice holiday.
Thanks for that.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
The pool was nice and warm.
Well, that's it.
Yeah, the spa was lovely andthat sort of stuff, but yeah, at
least I kept it, at least thebar was clean after I cleaned it
.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, oh, that's good .
Now I just want to touch on.
So we were talking about goingback into main, you know, vein
policing or general duties, butyou didn't actually go back into
general duties.
How do you think your timeundercover and we've had some
discussions about this, but orhow did your time undercover
(07:23):
affect your future?
You said four or five years inthe police.
Did it affect your time in thepolice?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
and and we'll just go there first, because there's a
couple of follow-up thingsaround that- yeah, like the
thing was, I was bitter becauseI was forced back to uniform and
stuff like that, and so it didaffect my mental health.
I actually had a mentalbreakdown in 1999, which was
(07:59):
about three and a bit yearsafter COVID, and it wasn't PTSD
as such or anything like that,and and I haven't been diagnosed
with that either, but it, youknow it's, it's affected me a
lot more now that, now that Iactually appreciate.
You know, as I just said, youknow it was a big game to me.
(08:21):
I was playing.
You know I, even during my timeas a COVID, I actually had a
credible death threat against me.
You know how did you?
deal with that.
Well, again, I was a bit naiveto it.
Still, I think I was 21 at thetime.
It was confirmed to me and thesilly thing is is my mate was
(08:43):
having his son at the localhospital where the threat had
originated from.
So I'm carrying a backpack withmy gun around with me in the
local hospital, you know, justin the off chance, you know, I
was going across the road to thelocal servo.
You know, yeah, yeah, Iremember telling the story a few
years later to my mate'sparents and saying you know, I
(09:05):
had my gun in my backpack.
At that time I said, oh, youknow, and it wasn't to me, it
wasn't anything really, but inhindsight it affected me a lot
more than I chose to understandat the time, because you know
like there was that.
You know that not, and a lot ofit is some of it's on me as
well.
You know like there was that.
You know that not, and a lot ofit is some of it's on me as
(09:28):
well, you know not.
I'm not going to say it's alltheir fault, but yeah, it was
tough the rest of my career.
You know like I, one of thethings that got me was the
bureaucracy, like because I hadskills that I wanted to use and
utilise and that sort of stuff.
So I went into a lot of the ITareas of the police service.
(09:52):
My last job was in the forensiccomputer examination unit and
part of that was looking atcomputers and analysing them for
evidence.
A lot of that time, you know,there's fraud documents and
stuff like that, but a lot of itwas child pornography and those
sorts of photos and stuff likethat that we were exposed to as
well.
And and the thing was is thatyou know, I come up, I come part
(10:15):
mentalized and that's that'show I lived my life back then.
And you know, as a young fella,yeah, put that away, I don't
need to deal with that.
You know I don't need to dealwith that.
You know I don't need to dealwith that.
And obviously, you know mybucket got too full one day and
just spilled out.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
So yeah, and you don't have to talk about this if
you don't want to, but myassumption is you were still in
the job when all those wallsstarted to fall down.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, yeah, very much so.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
How did that sort of?
What was the trigger?
I don't remember exactly whatit was.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
It was just I remember one day waking up
saying I don't want to be hereanymore.
Fortunately, I was living withmy fiancée we weren't married at
that time, we were livingtogether and unfortunately, um,
she was able to get me help andthat sort of stuff.
So, uh, it got pretty bad, uhwent on medication and that sort
(11:12):
of stuff.
Um, you know sharing a bit muchhere, but I even had shock
therapy and that sort of stuff,uh, in that year.
So can't, if anyone offers thatto you, please do not take it
again.
This is this is the late 90s umyeah, but but the thing is that,
so that's how bad my, my mentalhealth was um, and it goes to
(11:35):
that.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Do you think any?
So, no, sorry, go on, you knowI was just gonna say.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
The thing is I didn't last in the job much longer.
After that I did go to thatfriends computer examination,
because that's what I was goodat.
Um, yeah, uh, but then I leftthe job in in 2001, not long
after that.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
So you were gonna.
You're talking to all thesepeople.
Do you think the people youwere talking to understood what
you had done and how that itimpacted you?
Or was it more about oh, you'vegot a problem, so we've got to
fix the problem.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I think it was more the latter, because even
the people at work I can'tremember who I spoke to there
too much, but no, I don't thinkit went back to that and even I
do remember talking to my firstI always get these times with
(12:25):
Josh psychiatrist about it andthe thing was, and even we
didn't talk about work or PTSDor anything like that.
At that time it didn't seem itwas just more about dealing with
the symptoms of my anxiety anddepression.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Okay, do you think now that it's been a number of
years and you look back on it,do you do you?
Can you see?
Can you pinpoint?
Maybe not pinpoint, but can yousee the, the things that you
may have experienced, that mayhave contributed towards that?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
oh, very much.
So you know, as we all know,hindsight's a wonderful thing
and living in objectivity andlooking at those things, you
look at it with a very differentlens, especially with an older
head, and think you know thestupid situations and the stupid
choices I made.
I think you know I could havedealt with things a lot better
(13:22):
Yep, Like I could have made alot better choices.
But the thing was, but insaying that they're the choices
I made, I've had to live withthose choices and that sort of
stuff and I've worked over many,many years with many, many
professionals to deal with thosethoughts.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Okay, do you feel you're on the road to getting
better?
Yeah, very much maybe gettingmaybe getting better is not the
right word to use, and and Idon't mean that to sound
frivolous um because, whatsomeone said to me is that you
don't actually ever get over it.
You don't actually ever getbetter.
It's how you, how you learn howto not let it affect you as
(14:07):
much or or understand thesymptoms before it gets too bad.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
And that's it.
It's knowing your triggers andstuff like that.
Like the thing is, I've been ona thing called Trojan's Trek,
which is a fantasticorganisation.
They help veterans and firstresponders deal with things like
I've been through and PTSD andall those sorts of things and
I've been fortunate enough andall those sorts of things and
I've been fortunate enough.
(14:32):
I was actually to attend asecond one and got to interact
with some of the people there aswell and even doing that I
learned a lot more about aboutmyself and about what's happened
with me.
And and the thing was, you knowI don't know if you've heard of
the term, but yeah, hear aboutthe black dog is following you
around and stuff like that.
(14:52):
And the thing is, I do havethat dog, that black dog, locked
in the cage most of the day,but it gets out every now and
again.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
That's probably the easiest way to put it Speaker 1
1.00.
Okay, I'm sorry the group was.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Trojan Speaker 1 1.00 .
Trojans Trek, as in T-R-O-J-A-NTrek, t-r-e-k.
Yeah, they run groups here inQueensland, south Australia, and
I believe they're looking atother wines across the country.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
What I might do is.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I'll find the link.
I'll get you the link, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
And we'll put that in the details below this episode
so people, if they want to, theycan reach out to it.
Look, I want to come back tosome of that, but so you've gone
through this.
I want to say pain, but I don'tknow if that's the right word.
Towards the end of your career,you leave the police, yep.
(15:49):
What happens then?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, yeah, well, that's the thing is.
When I joined straight out ofhigh school I thought, wow, this
is, this is, this is my life,this is my career for the rest
of my life.
You know, and you don't realizeyou've got like a 45 year
working history.
I think, wow, yeah, even though55 is police retirement day,
but wow, I don't have 40 yearsof this.
(16:12):
This is awesome.
But I get to that realisationwhen I've got the paperwork in
and retiring and stuff like that, and just think, wow, what now?
I was fortunate, I did havethose IT skills and that sort of
stuff and that took me throughmany, many years.
I went through quite a fewdifferent employees and that's
(16:37):
again partly because of mymental health.
I did have one employer who wasfantastic in supporting me and
my mental health.
They were fantastic.
If they ever see this, I hopethey know who I'm talking about.
But the thing was it wasn't thesame in the sense that sure, I
was helping people and I wasvery good at what I did, because
(16:59):
doing computer support waspredominantly my roles and I was
very good at it because yougive me a problem, I solve it
and so.
But the thing is I couldn'tmake a career out of it, because
I couldn't talk the talk, Iwasn't management material and
all this sort of stuff, becauseI can't talk these fancy words
and stuff like that.
You and your role will knowwhat I'm talking about there.
(17:23):
But the thing was I was still alittle bit lost.
So when I applied to become afirefighter, I thought this is
fantastic, because now I canactually help people.
In the police you do get theopportunity to help people.
But I got so downtrodden,especially in general duties,
when all I was doing at the timewas going to everyone's house
(17:45):
to take their complaints aboutoh, my house was broken into or
this got damaged, and it justwears you down because that's
all I was doing, because as ageneral duties cop that's you
know well, this got stolen.
You know I wasn't actuallydoing anything to actually help
people.
Sure, I made the odd arresthere and there, but that's not
necessarily helping anyone.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
So hang on, hang on.
I just want to come back tothat.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
It felt like you weren't doing anything
substantive.
It felt like you weren't makinga difference.
That's what it felt like.
Yes, I'm not saying what I yeah.
Sorry, I don't mean to demeanthe job that I was doing.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
No, no, no, but I didn't see that.
I wasn't seeing the positivesides of it.
That's the thing.
I was only seeing the positivesides of it.
That that's the thing I wasonly seeing the part where
someone's complaining.
We whinged it to me.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Whinged it at me again, yeah I know I shouldn't
have taken it personally and no,it just gets you down.
It's more and more the factthat I guess the reason I sort
of focused on that was that,yeah, that that's the way you
feel and you don't see that.
You probably are making adifference.
You probably are helping people, but because all you're doing
is copying negativity, copyingcriticism, copying the.
(19:03):
This happened.
Why haven't the police donethis?
This has happened.
This has happened.
This is bad.
It's happened that's right yeahand I think one of the things I
said to you was that the policearen't really good at going hey,
these are the good things.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
We just we'll just, we'll, just yeah.
And it's funny, like in mycurrent career, I've done a
couple of leadership coursesrecently and that sort of stuff
and you look at what the lessonsthey're living with are
teaching me and they'refantastic.
But you look at back at thosetimes and that sort of stuff
when we didn't really haveleaders in the sense that they
(19:36):
weren't leading us somewhere,you know, um, yeah, right, I
probably was making a difference, but I didn't know about that.
My management didn't tell me.
You know it was, it was.
I was living in this, thisnegative world, um, and the
thing is I didn't haveresilience back then, this
negative world, and the thing isI didn't have resilience back
(19:56):
then.
I'm a lot better at that thesedays, the resilience.
So resilience is a funny thingin the sense that it takes many
forms.
Bill 1.15 yeah, jeff 1.16.
Yeah, I'm stuck for words rightnow.
Bill 1.17 no, that's okay.
How do you think you developed?
But yeah, I'm stuck for wordsright now, which is no.
No, that's okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
How do you think you developed resilience?
Because I would think it'salways been there, it's just
you've not known how to accessit.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Well, that's probably true.
I suppose, you know, as ayounger fellow, when I was doing
the UC work and all that sortof stuff, I still played sport
and had those connections andthose sorts of things.
But then I left football, I hada child, I got married and the
thing is, I fell out of thosethings that connected me to
(20:46):
other people and I suppose Ilost those resilient things that
connected me.
And the thing is, you know, alot more recently I've been able
to reestablish those and thenlook back and think, oh yeah,
well, that's what kept megrounded, or yeah, maybe better,
and that sort of stuff, youknow, allowed me to keep going
(21:08):
through life without worryingtoo much about this other stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
You were able to share those problems is not the
right word, but that's the wordI'm going to use with other
people who understood them,whether it be at football or the
policing family and that sortof thing.
And I guess, how long did youdo the IT stuff?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I did that for about 12 or 13 years before I got into
fire service.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And how long have you been in the fireys now?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It's come up to 10 years.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Do you think and this is something that I've
struggled with and so I justwant to throw it out there in
regards to whether it strikes achord, the camaraderie you had
in the police we were talkingabout resilience you didn't know
how to access it, maybe, butyou were in a group of people
who, albeit, were probably thesame negative thing, you felt
(22:02):
like you belonged, you felt likeyou were part of it because you
were all in the same boat,regardless of whether there was
leadership or management, andthat's a that's a completely
long topic.
Then you get out of that andyou're working for a bunch of
people where, in the privateenterprise, people work for
themselves.
Maybe they're out forthemselves, going back into a
(22:25):
group where you're all peopleunderstand what you're going
through and that sort of thingas well, but over that period
you've learned more aboutyourself.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
so when you're here now, you've got the ability to
realize that resilience yeah,that's right, like, like, I look
back at my it career and someof the places I worked for and
that sort of stuff and there'stwo places, there's two places,
two private enterprise jobs thatI work for, that uh had.
They're great people to workwith, um, one was the one I just
(22:57):
mentioned before about, youknow, really accepting of my
mental health, like, for example, one afternoon, um, we went and
watched the cricket down, wentand watched the cricket for you
know two or three hours, yeah,and that was just.
It is yeah, and my last jobbefore I joined the fire service
, every Friday afternoon we'd go.
It was in an old house, so atthe back they had a little bit
(23:18):
of a patio area where we'd goand sit and have a drink and
just have a chat, you know, talkabout what are you doing on the
weekend, all those sorts ofthings.
So the thing is those two jobsshow me that.
The thing is they appreciatepeople as people.
You know you weren't just anumber and that sort of stuff.
And my manager at that last job, she was fantastic because she
(23:39):
knew nothing about it.
But the thing is she was agreat manager because she knew
how to motivate people and sheknew how to talk to people as
well in resolving problems.
Yep, now joining the fireservice, I've I um again doing
these programs through TrojansTrek.
I've learned a lot more aboutmy own resilience and what helps
me and, hopefully, what canhelp other people, to the to the
(24:03):
point where it's a lot moreprevalent in my my in my current
role, in the sense that theytalk about mental health a lot
more and that sort of stuff.
I'm actually what's considereda peer support officer at my
work.
So the thing is I can be thefirst port of call for people if
they're having, you know,issues or something like that.
Like I'm not there to solvetheir problems.
(24:23):
Don't get me wrong, I'm notthere to take on their problems.
You know, I learned now when Iwent back talking about that
that policing stuff, I wastaking it on instead of instead
of just saying that is terrible.
This is not my feeling, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, yeah, I understand that a lot better now
.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, but yeah so, because I can appreciate, I've
been in this job, I've been inour other job, which we've been
talking about.
So the thing is they'rehorrible places to be in, you
know, and the thing is,hopefully I can help you, hold
your hand or be your guide andwhatever you want to envisage it
(25:03):
, to get you back to some formof normality, to a certain
extent.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And I think, going through the journey that shows
growth and shows anunderstanding of what you've
been through, and go okay.
Well, I know I'm not the onlyone that's going to go through
this.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, that's right and, like you know, one of the
things that got me is that whenwe go to a critical incident,
what we in our role as consumersis that we get a peer support
officer who's allocated to us.
And the thing is, a few yearsago we got some fire comm
operators that were allocated tous for a couple of jobs that I
(25:46):
had and they're great peersupporters.
They're just not peersupporters for me.
So the thing is, that's why Iactually joined the program
because I want to help my peers,that's, you know, people who
have done my job, who have beenin my situation and those sorts
of things.
So the thing is, when I joinedit, I look back at that stuff I
(26:07):
did in the coppers, the UC workand all that other stuff to have
a better understanding of mepersonally, but then also excuse
me also to apply that now- totry and help other people.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I know one of the things you know where we're at
at the moment in thisconversation is we started
talking about resilience.
That's one of the big thingsthat you learned um about
yourself, looking at your careeras a whole.
What other things have youlearned about yourself?
Oh gee whiz you spend far toomuch money on party shirts or
(26:50):
would you believe half of thesehave been gifts, um, actually
yes, I would believe that umthat's.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
That's a hard question because I struggle to
talk about myself a lot of thetime.
And even this, like I've beenexcited to have this, this
interview with you.
Um, but it's like that's a hardquestion because I struggle to
talk about myself a lot of thetime.
I've been excited to have thisinterview with you, but it's
like that question where do yousee yourself in five years?
And all those sorts of thingsand that sort of stuff.
What have I learned about myself?
I'm stronger than I believe Iam.
(27:19):
That's the thing is.
I've got all the skills andabilities you know going to all
these professionals and thatover the years, I've learned a
lot about mental health.
I'm not a professional I don'texpunge to be a professional,
but the thing is I know whatI've learned has worked for me
(27:40):
and you know if I can pointpeople in the right direction.
Um, I still want to help people.
That's that's, that's one of mycore values and that's the
thing I've learned, I suppose,is that that hasn't changed over
all these years and and that,that hopefully that will.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
That will never, ever change change.
Last couple of questions.
So what do you think is themost crucial trait for someone
who wants to become a policeofficer in general?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, when I saw this question I was thinking about
you know management's terribleand all that sort of stuff, but
that's not going to help anyonein this role, because any job in
the world you can have terriblemanagers, you know, whether
it's your private enterprise orgovernment.
So do your research, okay, andwhat I mean, like this is for
(28:36):
people even trying to get thefire service, because some
people don't Do your research.
Talk to people in jobs already.
You know especially people that, especially people that have
just gone through the process,have just gone through.
But also talk to older people.
But be objective in the sensethat they can tarnish it with
their own brush, In the sensethat if you talk to a copper
(28:58):
that's been in the job for20-odd years, they're going to
have their sway, but if you talkto someone who's been in for a
year, they're not, as I'm notquite sure what the word you use
.
But, yeah, gated, so the thingis.
So do that?
Understand what the role isabout.
Okay, Don't just look at themgiving you a speeding ticket or
(29:21):
something like that, or you know, come around if you're ringing
a police link and saying youknow, this is what's happened.
Find out what the job actuallyentails and what it's going to
cost you.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
What it's going to cost you.
That's probably a very, verygood thing that people need to
think about that.
They probably don't, especiallywhen it comes to policing.
Um yeah, do you think somepeople are more predisposed to
imparting a greater cost on themthan than others?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I think.
So, like again, I can look.
I can only talk about myself,because I've been in that
situation.
I wanted to help people.
It crushed me.
Crushed me because I didn't getto help people as much as I
thought it was.
But then my cousin married acopper and I met him a couple of
(30:16):
times and it was absolutelyarrogant.
And so the thing is, I look atthat and I think well, you know.
And so the thing is I'll look atthat and I think, well, you
know, look, he's, as far as Iunderstand, he's still a copper,
but um, but the thing always isthat you look at those
personality traits and think,well, yes, I suppose you need to
have some sort of you've got tohave toughness, irrespective of
(30:38):
how that works, because you'vegot to have a thick skin.
Yeah, because people are goingto be throwing things at you,
whether it's metaphorically orphysically.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Bill 1.10 00 1.10, both at the same time.
Bill 1.10 00 1.10.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
And the thing is you know you've got to understand
that, that you've got to havesomething outside the job as
well.
Like, as you know, back in ourtime we had the police club.
So the thing is you become acopper, you drunk with the
coppers, you went out with thecoppers.
You know everything was justthe life.
(31:14):
Yes, yeah, now I don't believethat's.
I'll be honest, I don't knowHealthy, if it's still like that
or not.
Yeah, it's not healthy.
Yeah, I'll be honest, I don'tknow if it's still like that or
not.
Yeah, it's not healthy.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Yeah, no, and yeah again.
I don't know if it's like thateither, but I guess that's a
question around the IT stuff,because when I left the police
it was like, okay, now what?
I don't have people whounderstand what I'm doing.
I don't have people who knowwhat I'm doing.
I don't have people, and Iguess, going into the fireys
(31:51):
it's a similar sort of thing,but probably not in the same way
.
You've still got that that Iwas going to say brotherhood,
but there we can't say thatanymore.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
So family type, um feeling about it yeah, but even
even talking about that, though,like again going back in the
old days, like fires used to dothe same things, in the sense
that fires used to be becauseyou spent so much time with them
on shift.
They would just hang out withother fires, and the thing is
they still do that these days,but it's no near and near as
(32:19):
much as what it was back in theday.
So the thing is that people arelearning that.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
The thing is there's more more to life as well and
you need to have have pursuitsoutside of of your job and your
job doesn't define you.
Um, working undercover.
Would you recommend it tosomeone who?
A bright, shiny young copperwho's going?
Oh, I want to do that.
That sounds like fun.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, again, I have to think a little bit about this
question in the sense that youneed to have a good support
network around you, and I mean away for the job.
So exactly what we were justtalking about there is that it's
great having that knowledgebase and that experience around
you when you're doing the job,to teach you the job and all
that sort of stuff.
I'm not devaluing that in anyway, shape or form, but what I
(33:04):
mean, if you are going to do thejob, you've got to have that
sort of work away from the job,and the reason for that is
that's to ground you back intothe real world, in the sense
that you live in that world, youbecome that world, and I can
only imagine how much harder itis these days, you know, with
(33:24):
social media and phones andcameras and all that sort of
stuff, to try and do do the job.
So the thing is, I think you'dhave to go a lot deeper,
mentally as well as physically,into the role.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
So when you're not in that role, I think it'd be so
vitally important to have thosesupport networks and grounding
outside of it.
I think that's that's very,very sage advice.
Um, there's a question that'sjust popped into my mind.
Um, if anyone's listening tothis, this or watching this
podcast and they sort of go, oh,actually, you know what I
(33:57):
relate to some of that whatshould they do?
What should they do?
Oh, again, ask the questions.
Do your research?
More of the fact that I relateto, I relate to okay, I, I can
see myself.
You know, I didn't know it wasthe dog.
I can see the dog, I, I I canfeel myself doing some of these
(34:20):
things, you having reactions,all that sort of stuff.
What's?
Your advice to him.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Bill 1.20 00.30.
Get help.
That can be something is justring someone like, for example,
I had a bloke bring me this weekcrying on the phone and he
didn't know who to talk to.
So he rang me because he knew Iwas a peer supporter and that
sort of stuff.
He's not a firefighter.
But he rung me and I hadn'tspoken to him for about three or
(34:49):
four months and he rung me andsaid mate, can you help me?
What do you want, mate?
What can I do for you?
And mate, we've spoken.
I've spoken to him since thenand he's much, much better.
He's followed some of theadvice I've already given in
this interview.
Yes, so don't be afraid to askfor help.
And that's the big thing.
Is that again back in our day?
(35:12):
I hate those stories.
I find those funny stories.
We didn't talk about it and wedidn't like even co-votes.
We didn't talk about you knowhow we were feeling about things
or that sort of stuff.
We might talk about how we werefeeling about things or that
sort of stuff.
We might talk about how we'redoing our next deal or something
like that.
But in this day and age we needto talk about it a lot more.
(35:32):
Reach out to your friends andfamily and that sort of stuff.
They may not be able to helpyou.
Look at things like this,trojan's Tricks and there's a
lot of other groups out therethat provide support.
Obviously, that's one that's incertain areas within the
(35:53):
country, but there's other ones,no doubt Retired organisations
are like.
My wife got me a card once froma retired police association.
You know I've still got stuffstuck on the fridge but I've
never followed it up, becausethose exact things that we
talked about is because if youget into that, that life, you
know, do you go back there?
(36:14):
Sort of thing you know is it.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Is it a step forward or is it a step back?
Exactly yeah, I think.
I think what you've said isimportant is, yeah, is don't be
afraid to reach out to someone,don't be afraid to help and, as
I say on which you haven't seenyet, but on the beginning of
this, if there's no one else,call Lifeline.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Talk to someone.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Well, that's it.
Talk to someone and the thingis be aware that not everyone's
going to take it on board.
There's going to be people whowon't care, but that's where
you'll find out who your truefriends are and who really cares
about you by having theseconversations.
You know the older generationthey don't get it Sometimes when
(37:00):
you talk about your mentalhealth, because in their day,
you know, you get a kick up, youknow.
Kick on the ass, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Toughen up, you know, and it's not like a glass of
wet cement that's it, yeah um,and, and I think the other
important thing is, if someonedoes approach you listen you
don't have to say anything.
You don't have to, you don'thave to, you don't have to have
the answers, you just have tolisten and be there for them.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
You know you don't.
You know it's like talking toyour wife or your partner.
Whichever way you go, theydon't always need a solution.
They just may need to talk toyou and ask them questions.
If you don't understand, askthem questions they don't
understand.
Ask them questions.
They don't necessarily have tohave to answer, but the thing is
, by you taking an interest inthem, they may open up, and it
(37:51):
might, and you, you'll find itthat'll probably help them by
just actually taking an interest.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, I, I agree.
Um, all right.
Look, we've been going forabout an hour and a quarter, so
what I might do is we might windit up, but I'm gonna leave the
last comment to you, mate, andgo for it oh, no worries.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
well, it's been wonderful.
I've shared a lot more than Iexpected to share, but what I
hope people get from thisepisode is is that it's a
journey that I've been through,and so has Jason, but the thing
is, you're no longer alone inthis world.
Don't be afraid to talk topeople, and if you are
(38:34):
interested in the role, pleasedo your research before you join
, definitely my email.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
I'm always happy to talk to people and tell them the
bad things, but I genuinelybelieve that it's a noble
profession and that you know it,provided you go into it with
the right mindset that, um you,you do at some stage make a
difference.
Garth, thank you very much foryour time.
I really do appreciate it toeveryone else.
(39:03):
Thank you for listening tobehind the thin blue line, a
whisper in the shadows podcast.
If you're a current or currentor past police officer, whether
you've worked undercover or not,I would love to have you on
this episode, on this podcast,to talk about your experiences
and things that have happened.
So my email is whisper in theshadowspodcastatgmailcom.
(39:25):
Thank you very much, garth.
Thank you to everyone.
I hope you've enjoyed thisepisode and you've found it
enlightening.
We will catch you next time.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'llagain explore the human side of
(39:48):
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
(40:09):
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a glint
into something you will likelynever get to experience Uncover
the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me Jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police officer
myself, as we navigate throughthese stories on Behind the Thin
Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome back to part two of myinterview with Garth Kirkwood.
Listen in now as he recountshis job on the luxury holiday
(01:36):
island.
I got this job where I wasgoing to an island resort, okay.
So what the management wereworried about?
Yeah, it was a real hard, hardsell.
I can tell you I was goingthere just to do a genitalia
walk clean around the pools andall that sort of stuff.
What they were.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
They put me in the room with the target, they
suspect, was bringing marijuanaand stuff into the staff.
So only person you knew I waswas the manager.
Anyway, I've got to the islandand sitting in his office and
that's the stuff, is it?
Oh, you know, is that we've gotyou with this guy and all those
sorts of things?
I said, okay, great, you know,what do you want me to do now?
(02:17):
I started, then took me for atour anyway.
So, but those days the islandresort, it had a like a sporting
hub where you go get yourflippers and all your yeah, yeah
, beach volleyball, all thatstuff.
Anyway, we're walking into this, walking into this area, and
again I've got I think I've gota goby at that time and sort of
(02:39):
a long hair and that stuff, andI'm using Garth and a fake last
name.
Now walk in.
The manager says this is suchand such and this guy behind the
camera says garthy and hestarts to call out my last name
and I said and I call out hisname over the top of my last
name, trying to drown out mylast name.
(02:59):
Yeah, no, this guy was the bestmate of my brother in high
school.
Our families had known eachother for about a good 15 years
because we'd all grown up in thelocal football club.
Anyway, I said, oh no.
He said, mate, I'll catch upwith you later.
I'll talk to you later, anyway,oh no.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
So he was working there or he was on holiday.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
He was working at the resort.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Oh right.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
If it was a holiday mate it probably wouldn't have
been so bad.
But he actually worked there.
The thing is in my brain.
I had no issue with him becauseI knew he'd been in the army
and that sort of stuff, so Iknew I could probably trust him
not too badly.
But later on that afternoon Iwas in my quarters sitting in my
room, that sort of stuff, andhis younger brother walks in oh
(03:55):
no, he's by himself, fortunatelysays what, what are you doing
here?
With a few expletives put inthere, because they knew who I
was, they knew what I was, as inthe sense they knew I was a
copper.
I can't remember what I said,but I knew I couldn't trust this
(04:20):
guy.
I couldn't trust him at allBill 1.20 so what happened
anyway?
I, I, it only I only lastedseven days before they.
They shoved it all down becausethe guy I was rooming with he
did not take to me at all.
He hardly said boo to me youknow he didn't socialize with me
anything like that.
He tried to avoid me where hecould.
(04:41):
So whether the guy I knew toldhim something, I can't say
because I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Or Chinese whispers.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Oh, of course, of course.
No one sort of overtly saidanything to me or anything like
that or dissed me as such.
No one sort of ostracised me oranything like that, thinking it
was bad news or something.
But this, this guy who I wasrooming with, yeah he's, he
definitely had nothing to do?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
did you sleep with one eye open?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
no, the thing was I was 20 and stupid.
This is the thing about thatjob.
Back in that time I I wasignorant to the dangers you you
know.
After that job, where I gotrecognised, you know, it didn't
worry me too much because I gothome and said to my parents I
said, next time I'm going I'mgoing to tell you where I'm
(05:34):
going.
So can you tell me if we knowany people in the town?
And when I said that theydidn't even know, they were
there anyway so it wouldn't havehelped, so it wouldn't have
made a difference?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
um, no, was anything said like so?
When?
When?
Obviously I know the processthat goes through, when that
happens and you go to yourcontroller and you go, hey, I
think we've got a problem, andthen everyone goes in the
background and starts going shit, shit, shit, shit shit when you
come.
When you came back, did anyonesort of go why didn't you tell
us, or anything like that?
No, no, it wasn't, Not that Irecall there was no backdraft or
(06:16):
anything like that, Because Iremember I think I made a phone
call, obviously through themanager.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I made a phone call back to HQ because I didn't have
a controller, because I was onthis island, so it's not really
plausible, yep.
And I rang them and said mate,it's not going real well, mate,
this is what's happened.
And he said I'll leave it acouple of days, see how it goes.
And yeah, it didn't go anywhere.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
You just didn't take it.
So when I got, home nah.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
And when I got home nah.
And when I got back, what arethey going to say?
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You know, yeah, had a nice holiday.
Thanks for that.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
The pool was nice and warm.
Well, that's it.
Yeah, the spa was lovely andthat sort of stuff, but yeah, at
least I kept it, at least thebar was clean after I cleaned it
.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, oh, that's good .
Now I just want to touch on.
So we were talking about goingback into main, you know, vein
policing or general duties, butyou didn't actually go back into
general duties.
How do you think your timeundercover and we've had some
discussions about this, but orhow did your time undercover
(07:23):
affect your future?
You said four or five years inthe police.
Did it affect your time in thepolice?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
and and we'll just go there first, because there's a
couple of follow-up thingsaround that- yeah, like the
thing was, I was bitter becauseI was forced back to uniform and
stuff like that, and so it didaffect my mental health.
I actually had a mentalbreakdown in 1999, which was
(07:59):
about three and a bit yearsafter COVID, and it wasn't PTSD
as such or anything like that,and and I haven't been diagnosed
with that either, but it, youknow it's, it's affected me a
lot more now that, now that Iactually appreciate.
You know, as I just said, youknow it was a big game to me.
(08:21):
I was playing.
You know I, even during my timeas a COVID, I actually had a
credible death threat against me.
You know how did you?
deal with that.
Well, again, I was a bit naiveto it.
Still, I think I was 21 at thetime.
It was confirmed to me and thesilly thing is is my mate was
(08:43):
having his son at the localhospital where the threat had
originated from.
So I'm carrying a backpack withmy gun around with me in the
local hospital, you know, justin the off chance, you know, I
was going across the road to thelocal servo.
You know, yeah, yeah, Iremember telling the story a few
years later to my mate'sparents and saying you know, I
(09:05):
had my gun in my backpack.
At that time I said, oh, youknow, and it wasn't to me, it
wasn't anything really, but inhindsight it affected me a lot
more than I chose to understandat the time, because you know
like there was that.
You know that not, and a lot ofit is some of it's on me as
well.
You know like there was that.
You know that not, and a lot ofit is some of it's on me as
(09:28):
well, you know not.
I'm not going to say it's alltheir fault, but yeah, it was
tough the rest of my career.
You know like I, one of thethings that got me was the
bureaucracy, like because I hadskills that I wanted to use and
utilise and that sort of stuff.
So I went into a lot of the ITareas of the police service.
(09:52):
My last job was in the forensiccomputer examination unit and
part of that was looking atcomputers and analysing them for
evidence.
A lot of that time, you know,there's fraud documents and
stuff like that, but a lot of itwas child pornography and those
sorts of photos and stuff likethat that we were exposed to as
well.
And and the thing was is thatyou know, I come up, I come part
(10:15):
mentalized and that's that'show I lived my life back then.
And you know, as a young fella,yeah, put that away, I don't
need to deal with that.
You know I don't need to dealwith that.
You know I don't need to dealwith that.
And obviously, you know mybucket got too full one day and
just spilled out.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
So yeah, and you don't have to talk about this if
you don't want to, but myassumption is you were still in
the job when all those wallsstarted to fall down.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, yeah, very much so.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
How did that sort of?
What was the trigger?
I don't remember exactly whatit was.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
It was just I remember one day waking up
saying I don't want to be hereanymore.
Fortunately, I was living withmy fiancée we weren't married at
that time, we were livingtogether and unfortunately, um,
she was able to get me help andthat sort of stuff.
So, uh, it got pretty bad, uhwent on medication and that sort
(11:12):
of stuff.
Um, you know sharing a bit muchhere, but I even had shock
therapy and that sort of stuff,uh, in that year.
So can't, if anyone offers thatto you, please do not take it
again.
This is this is the late 90s umyeah, but but the thing is that,
so that's how bad my, my mentalhealth was um, and it goes to
(11:35):
that.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Do you think any?
So, no, sorry, go on, you knowI was just gonna say.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
The thing is I didn't last in the job much longer.
After that I did go to thatfriends computer examination,
because that's what I was goodat.
Um, yeah, uh, but then I leftthe job in in 2001, not long
after that.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
So you were gonna.
You're talking to all thesepeople.
Do you think the people youwere talking to understood what
you had done and how that itimpacted you?
Or was it more about oh, you'vegot a problem, so we've got to
fix the problem.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I think it was more the latter, because even
the people at work I can'tremember who I spoke to there
too much, but no, I don't thinkit went back to that and even I
do remember talking to my firstI always get these times with
(12:25):
Josh psychiatrist about it andthe thing was, and even we
didn't talk about work or PTSDor anything like that.
At that time it didn't seem itwas just more about dealing with
the symptoms of my anxiety anddepression.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Okay, do you think now that it's been a number of
years and you look back on it,do you do you?
Can you see?
Can you pinpoint?
Maybe not pinpoint, but can yousee the, the things that you
may have experienced, that mayhave contributed towards that?
Speaker 2 (12:59):
oh, very much.
So you know, as we all know,hindsight's a wonderful thing
and living in objectivity andlooking at those things, you
look at it with a very differentlens, especially with an older
head, and think you know thestupid situations and the stupid
choices I made.
I think you know I could havedealt with things a lot better
(13:22):
Yep, Like I could have made alot better choices.
But the thing was, but insaying that they're the choices
I made, I've had to live withthose choices and that sort of
stuff and I've worked over many,many years with many, many
professionals to deal with thosethoughts.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Okay, do you feel you're on the road to getting
better?
Yeah, very much maybe gettingmaybe getting better is not the
right word to use, and and Idon't mean that to sound
frivolous um because, whatsomeone said to me is that you
don't actually ever get over it.
You don't actually ever getbetter.
It's how you, how you learn howto not let it affect you as
(14:07):
much or or understand thesymptoms before it gets too bad.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
And that's it.
It's knowing your triggers andstuff like that.
Like the thing is, I've been ona thing called Trojan's Trek,
which is a fantasticorganisation.
They help veterans and firstresponders deal with things like
I've been through and PTSD andall those sorts of things and
I've been fortunate enough andall those sorts of things and
I've been fortunate enough.
(14:32):
I was actually to attend asecond one and got to interact
with some of the people there aswell and even doing that I
learned a lot more about aboutmyself and about what's happened
with me.
And and the thing was, you knowI don't know if you've heard of
the term, but yeah, hear aboutthe black dog is following you
around and stuff like that.
(14:52):
And the thing is, I do havethat dog, that black dog, locked
in the cage most of the day,but it gets out every now and
again.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
That's probably the easiest way to put it Speaker 1
1.00.
Okay, I'm sorry the group was.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Trojan Speaker 1 1.00 .
Trojans Trek, as in T-R-O-J-A-NTrek, t-r-e-k.
Yeah, they run groups here inQueensland, south Australia, and
I believe they're looking atother wines across the country.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
What I might do is.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I'll find the link.
I'll get you the link, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
And we'll put that in the details below this episode
so people, if they want to, theycan reach out to it.
Look, I want to come back tosome of that, but so you've gone
through this.
I want to say pain, but I don'tknow if that's the right word.
Towards the end of your career,you leave the police, yep.
(15:49):
What happens then?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, yeah, well, that's the thing is.
When I joined straight out ofhigh school I thought, wow, this
is, this is, this is my life,this is my career for the rest
of my life.
You know, and you don't realizeyou've got like a 45 year
working history.
I think, wow, yeah, even though55 is police retirement day,
but wow, I don't have 40 yearsof this.
(16:12):
This is awesome.
But I get to that realisationwhen I've got the paperwork in
and retiring and stuff like that, and just think, wow, what now?
I was fortunate, I did havethose IT skills and that sort of
stuff and that took me throughmany, many years.
I went through quite a fewdifferent employees and that's
(16:37):
again partly because of mymental health.
I did have one employer who wasfantastic in supporting me and
my mental health.
They were fantastic.
If they ever see this, I hopethey know who I'm talking about.
But the thing was it wasn't thesame in the sense that sure, I
was helping people and I wasvery good at what I did, because
(16:59):
doing computer support waspredominantly my roles and I was
very good at it because yougive me a problem, I solve it
and so.
But the thing is I couldn'tmake a career out of it, because
I couldn't talk the talk, Iwasn't management material and
all this sort of stuff, becauseI can't talk these fancy words
and stuff like that.
You and your role will knowwhat I'm talking about there.
(17:23):
But the thing was I was still alittle bit lost.
So when I applied to become afirefighter, I thought this is
fantastic, because now I canactually help people.
In the police you do get theopportunity to help people.
But I got so downtrodden,especially in general duties,
when all I was doing at the timewas going to everyone's house
(17:45):
to take their complaints aboutoh, my house was broken into or
this got damaged, and it justwears you down because that's
all I was doing, because as ageneral duties cop that's you
know well, this got stolen.
You know I wasn't actuallydoing anything to actually help
people.
Sure, I made the odd arresthere and there, but that's not
necessarily helping anyone.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
So hang on, hang on.
I just want to come back tothat.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
It felt like you weren't doing anything
substantive.
It felt like you weren't makinga difference.
That's what it felt like.
Yes, I'm not saying what I yeah.
Sorry, I don't mean to demeanthe job that I was doing.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
No, no, no, but I didn't see that.
I wasn't seeing the positivesides of it.
That's the thing.
I was only seeing the positivesides of it.
That that's the thing I wasonly seeing the part where
someone's complaining.
We whinged it to me.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Whinged it at me again, yeah I know I shouldn't
have taken it personally and no,it just gets you down.
It's more and more the factthat I guess the reason I sort
of focused on that was that,yeah, that that's the way you
feel and you don't see that.
You probably are making adifference.
You probably are helping people, but because all you're doing
is copying negativity, copyingcriticism, copying the.
(19:03):
This happened.
Why haven't the police donethis?
This has happened.
This has happened.
This is bad.
It's happened that's right yeahand I think one of the things I
said to you was that the policearen't really good at going hey,
these are the good things.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
We just we'll just, we'll, just yeah.
And it's funny, like in mycurrent career, I've done a
couple of leadership coursesrecently and that sort of stuff
and you look at what the lessonsthey're living with are
teaching me and they'refantastic.
But you look at back at thosetimes and that sort of stuff
when we didn't really haveleaders in the sense that they
(19:36):
weren't leading us somewhere,you know, um, yeah, right, I
probably was making a difference, but I didn't know about that.
My management didn't tell me.
You know it was, it was.
I was living in this, thisnegative world, um, and the
thing is I didn't haveresilience back then, this
negative world, and the thing isI didn't have resilience back
(19:56):
then.
I'm a lot better at that thesedays, the resilience.
So resilience is a funny thingin the sense that it takes many
forms.
Bill 1.15 yeah, jeff 1.16.
Yeah, I'm stuck for words rightnow.
Bill 1.17 no, that's okay.
How do you think you developed?
But yeah, I'm stuck for wordsright now, which is no.
No, that's okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
How do you think you developed resilience?
Because I would think it'salways been there, it's just
you've not known how to accessit.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Well, that's probably true.
I suppose, you know, as ayounger fellow, when I was doing
the UC work and all that sortof stuff, I still played sport
and had those connections andthose sorts of things.
But then I left football, I hada child, I got married and the
thing is, I fell out of thosethings that connected me to
(20:46):
other people and I suppose Ilost those resilient things that
connected me.
And the thing is, you know, alot more recently I've been able
to reestablish those and thenlook back and think, oh yeah,
well, that's what kept megrounded, or yeah, maybe better,
and that sort of stuff, youknow, allowed me to keep going
(21:08):
through life without worryingtoo much about this other stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
You were able to share those problems is not the
right word, but that's the wordI'm going to use with other
people who understood them,whether it be at football or the
policing family and that sortof thing.
And I guess, how long did youdo the IT stuff?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I did that for about 12 or 13 years before I got into
fire service.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And how long have you been in the fireys now?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It's come up to 10 years.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Do you think and this is something that I've
struggled with and so I justwant to throw it out there in
regards to whether it strikes achord, the camaraderie you had
in the police we were talkingabout resilience you didn't know
how to access it, maybe, butyou were in a group of people
who, albeit, were probably thesame negative thing, you felt
(22:02):
like you belonged, you felt likeyou were part of it because you
were all in the same boat,regardless of whether there was
leadership or management, andthat's a that's a completely
long topic.
Then you get out of that andyou're working for a bunch of
people where, in the privateenterprise, people work for
themselves.
Maybe they're out forthemselves, going back into a
(22:25):
group where you're all peopleunderstand what you're going
through and that sort of thingas well, but over that period
you've learned more aboutyourself.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
so when you're here now, you've got the ability to
realize that resilience yeah,that's right, like, like, I look
back at my it career and someof the places I worked for and
that sort of stuff and there'stwo places, there's two places,
two private enterprise jobs thatI work for, that uh had.
They're great people to workwith, um, one was the one I just
(22:57):
mentioned before about, youknow, really accepting of my
mental health, like, for example, one afternoon, um, we went and
watched the cricket down, wentand watched the cricket for you
know two or three hours, yeah,and that was just.
It is yeah, and my last jobbefore I joined the fire service
, every Friday afternoon we'd go.
It was in an old house, so atthe back they had a little bit
(23:18):
of a patio area where we'd goand sit and have a drink and
just have a chat, you know, talkabout what are you doing on the
weekend, all those sorts ofthings.
So the thing is those two jobsshow me that.
The thing is they appreciatepeople as people.
You know you weren't just anumber and that sort of stuff.
And my manager at that last job, she was fantastic because she
(23:39):
knew nothing about it.
But the thing is she was agreat manager because she knew
how to motivate people and sheknew how to talk to people as
well in resolving problems.
Yep, now joining the fireservice, I've I um again doing
these programs through TrojansTrek.
I've learned a lot more aboutmy own resilience and what helps
me and, hopefully, what canhelp other people, to the to the
(24:03):
point where it's a lot moreprevalent in my my in my current
role, in the sense that theytalk about mental health a lot
more and that sort of stuff.
I'm actually what's considereda peer support officer at my
work.
So the thing is I can be thefirst port of call for people if
they're having, you know,issues or something like that.
Like I'm not there to solvetheir problems.
(24:23):
Don't get me wrong, I'm notthere to take on their problems.
You know, I learned now when Iwent back talking about that
that policing stuff, I wastaking it on instead of instead
of just saying that is terrible.
This is not my feeling, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, yeah, I understand that a lot better now
.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, but yeah so, because I can appreciate, I've
been in this job, I've been inour other job, which we've been
talking about.
So the thing is they'rehorrible places to be in, you
know, and the thing is,hopefully I can help you, hold
your hand or be your guide andwhatever you want to envisage it
(25:03):
, to get you back to some formof normality, to a certain
extent.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And I think, going through the journey that shows
growth and shows anunderstanding of what you've
been through, and go okay.
Well, I know I'm not the onlyone that's going to go through
this.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, that's right and, like you know, one of the
things that got me is that whenwe go to a critical incident,
what we in our role as consumersis that we get a peer support
officer who's allocated to us.
And the thing is, a few yearsago we got some fire comm
operators that were allocated tous for a couple of jobs that I
(25:46):
had and they're great peersupporters.
They're just not peersupporters for me.
So the thing is, that's why Iactually joined the program
because I want to help my peers,that's, you know, people who
have done my job, who have beenin my situation and those sorts
of things.
So the thing is, when I joinedit, I look back at that stuff I
(26:07):
did in the coppers, the UC workand all that other stuff to have
a better understanding of mepersonally, but then also excuse
me also to apply that now- totry and help other people.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I know one of the things you know where we're at
at the moment in thisconversation is we started
talking about resilience.
That's one of the big thingsthat you learned um about
yourself, looking at your careeras a whole.
What other things have youlearned about yourself?
Oh gee whiz you spend far toomuch money on party shirts or
(26:50):
would you believe half of thesehave been gifts, um, actually
yes, I would believe that umthat's.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
That's a hard question because I struggle to
talk about myself a lot of thetime.
And even this, like I've beenexcited to have this, this
interview with you.
Um, but it's like that's a hardquestion because I struggle to
talk about myself a lot of thetime.
I've been excited to have thisinterview with you, but it's
like that question where do yousee yourself in five years?
And all those sorts of thingsand that sort of stuff.
What have I learned about myself?
I'm stronger than I believe Iam.
(27:19):
That's the thing is.
I've got all the skills andabilities you know going to all
these professionals and thatover the years, I've learned a
lot about mental health.
I'm not a professional I don'texpunge to be a professional,
but the thing is I know whatI've learned has worked for me
(27:40):
and you know if I can pointpeople in the right direction.
Um, I still want to help people.
That's that's, that's one of mycore values and that's the
thing I've learned, I suppose,is that that hasn't changed over
all these years and and that,that hopefully that will.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
That will never, ever change change.
Last couple of questions.
So what do you think is themost crucial trait for someone
who wants to become a policeofficer in general?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, when I saw this question I was thinking about
you know management's terribleand all that sort of stuff, but
that's not going to help anyonein this role, because any job in
the world you can have terriblemanagers, you know, whether
it's your private enterprise orgovernment.
So do your research, okay, andwhat I mean, like this is for
(28:36):
people even trying to get thefire service, because some
people don't Do your research.
Talk to people in jobs already.
You know especially people that, especially people that have
just gone through the process,have just gone through.
But also talk to older people.
But be objective in the sensethat they can tarnish it with
their own brush, In the sensethat if you talk to a copper
(28:58):
that's been in the job for20-odd years, they're going to
have their sway, but if you talkto someone who's been in for a
year, they're not, as I'm notquite sure what the word you use
.
But, yeah, gated, so the thingis.
So do that?
Understand what the role isabout.
Okay, Don't just look at themgiving you a speeding ticket or
(29:21):
something like that, or you know, come around if you're ringing
a police link and saying youknow, this is what's happened.
Find out what the job actuallyentails and what it's going to
cost you.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
What it's going to cost you.
That's probably a very, verygood thing that people need to
think about that.
They probably don't, especiallywhen it comes to policing.
Um yeah, do you think somepeople are more predisposed to
imparting a greater cost on themthan than others?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I think.
So, like again, I can look.
I can only talk about myself,because I've been in that
situation.
I wanted to help people.
It crushed me.
Crushed me because I didn't getto help people as much as I
thought it was.
But then my cousin married acopper and I met him a couple of
(30:16):
times and it was absolutelyarrogant.
And so the thing is, I look atthat and I think well, you know.
And so the thing is I'll look atthat and I think, well, you
know, look, he's, as far as Iunderstand, he's still a copper,
but um, but the thing always isthat you look at those
personality traits and think,well, yes, I suppose you need to
have some sort of you've got tohave toughness, irrespective of
(30:38):
how that works, because you'vegot to have a thick skin.
Yeah, because people are goingto be throwing things at you,
whether it's metaphorically orphysically.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Bill 1.10 00 1.10, both at the same time.
Bill 1.10 00 1.10.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
And the thing is you know you've got to understand
that, that you've got to havesomething outside the job as
well.
Like, as you know, back in ourtime we had the police club.
So the thing is you become acopper, you drunk with the
coppers, you went out with thecoppers.
You know everything was justthe life.
(31:14):
Yes, yeah, now I don't believethat's.
I'll be honest, I don't knowHealthy, if it's still like that
or not.
Yeah, it's not healthy.
Yeah, I'll be honest, I don'tknow if it's still like that or
not.
Yeah, it's not healthy.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Yeah, no, and yeah again.
I don't know if it's like thateither, but I guess that's a
question around the IT stuff,because when I left the police
it was like, okay, now what?
I don't have people whounderstand what I'm doing.
I don't have people who knowwhat I'm doing.
I don't have people, and Iguess, going into the fireys
(31:51):
it's a similar sort of thing,but probably not in the same way
.
You've still got that that Iwas going to say brotherhood,
but there we can't say thatanymore.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
So family type, um feeling about it yeah, but even
even talking about that, though,like again going back in the
old days, like fires used to dothe same things, in the sense
that fires used to be becauseyou spent so much time with them
on shift.
They would just hang out withother fires, and the thing is
they still do that these days,but it's no near and near as
(32:19):
much as what it was back in theday.
So the thing is that people arelearning that.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
The thing is there's more more to life as well and
you need to have have pursuitsoutside of of your job and your
job doesn't define you.
Um, working undercover.
Would you recommend it tosomeone who?
A bright, shiny young copperwho's going?
Oh, I want to do that.
That sounds like fun.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Yeah, again, I have to think a little bit about this
question in the sense that youneed to have a good support
network around you, and I mean away for the job.
So exactly what we were justtalking about there is that it's
great having that knowledgebase and that experience around
you when you're doing the job,to teach you the job and all
that sort of stuff.
I'm not devaluing that in anyway, shape or form, but what I
(33:04):
mean, if you are going to do thejob, you've got to have that
sort of work away from the job,and the reason for that is
that's to ground you back intothe real world, in the sense
that you live in that world, youbecome that world, and I can
only imagine how much harder itis these days, you know, with
(33:24):
social media and phones andcameras and all that sort of
stuff, to try and do do the job.
So the thing is, I think you'dhave to go a lot deeper,
mentally as well as physically,into the role.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
So when you're not in that role, I think it'd be so
vitally important to have thosesupport networks and grounding
outside of it.
I think that's that's very,very sage advice.
Um, there's a question that'sjust popped into my mind.
Um, if anyone's listening tothis, this or watching this
podcast and they sort of go, oh,actually, you know what I
(33:57):
relate to some of that whatshould they do?
What should they do?
Oh, again, ask the questions.
Do your research?
More of the fact that I relateto, I relate to okay, I, I can
see myself.
You know, I didn't know it wasthe dog.
I can see the dog, I, I I canfeel myself doing some of these
(34:20):
things, you having reactions,all that sort of stuff.
What's?
Your advice to him.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Bill 1.20 00.30.
Get help.
That can be something is justring someone like, for example,
I had a bloke bring me this weekcrying on the phone and he
didn't know who to talk to.
So he rang me because he knew Iwas a peer supporter and that
sort of stuff.
He's not a firefighter.
But he rung me and I hadn'tspoken to him for about three or
(34:49):
four months and he rung me andsaid mate, can you help me?
What do you want, mate?
What can I do for you?
And mate, we've spoken.
I've spoken to him since thenand he's much, much better.
He's followed some of theadvice I've already given in
this interview.
Yes, so don't be afraid to askfor help.
And that's the big thing.
Is that again back in our day?
(35:12):
I hate those stories.
I find those funny stories.
We didn't talk about it and wedidn't like even co-votes.
We didn't talk about you knowhow we were feeling about things
or that sort of stuff.
We might talk about how we werefeeling about things or that
sort of stuff.
We might talk about how we'redoing our next deal or something
like that.
But in this day and age we needto talk about it a lot more.
(35:32):
Reach out to your friends andfamily and that sort of stuff.
They may not be able to helpyou.
Look at things like this,trojan's Tricks and there's a
lot of other groups out therethat provide support.
Obviously, that's one that's incertain areas within the
(35:53):
country, but there's other ones,no doubt Retired organisations
are like.
My wife got me a card once froma retired police association.
You know I've still got stuffstuck on the fridge but I've
never followed it up, becausethose exact things that we
talked about is because if youget into that, that life, you
know, do you go back there?
(36:14):
Sort of thing you know is it.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Is it a step forward or is it a step back?
Exactly yeah, I think.
I think what you've said isimportant is, yeah, is don't be
afraid to reach out to someone,don't be afraid to help and, as
I say on which you haven't seenyet, but on the beginning of
this, if there's no one else,call Lifeline.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Talk to someone.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Well, that's it.
Talk to someone and the thingis be aware that not everyone's
going to take it on board.
There's going to be people whowon't care, but that's where
you'll find out who your truefriends are and who really cares
about you by having theseconversations.
You know the older generationthey don't get it Sometimes when
(37:00):
you talk about your mentalhealth, because in their day,
you know, you get a kick up, youknow.
Kick on the ass, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Toughen up, you know, and it's not like a glass of
wet cement that's it, yeah um,and, and I think the other
important thing is, if someonedoes approach you listen you
don't have to say anything.
You don't have to, you don'thave to, you don't have to have
the answers, you just have tolisten and be there for them.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
You know you don't.
You know it's like talking toyour wife or your partner.
Whichever way you go, theydon't always need a solution.
They just may need to talk toyou and ask them questions.
If you don't understand, askthem questions they don't
understand.
Ask them questions.
They don't necessarily have tohave to answer, but the thing is
, by you taking an interest inthem, they may open up, and it
(37:51):
might, and you, you'll find itthat'll probably help them by
just actually taking an interest.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, I, I agree.
Um, all right.
Look, we've been going forabout an hour and a quarter, so
what I might do is we might windit up, but I'm gonna leave the
last comment to you, mate, andgo for it oh, no worries.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
well, it's been wonderful.
I've shared a lot more than Iexpected to share, but what I
hope people get from thisepisode is is that it's a
journey that I've been through,and so has Jason, but the thing
is, you're no longer alone inthis world.
Don't be afraid to talk topeople, and if you are
(38:34):
interested in the role, pleasedo your research before you join
, definitely my email.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
I'm always happy to talk to people and tell them the
bad things, but I genuinelybelieve that it's a noble
profession and that you know it,provided you go into it with
the right mindset that, um you,you do at some stage make a
difference.
Garth, thank you very much foryour time.
I really do appreciate it toeveryone else.
(39:03):
Thank you for listening tobehind the thin blue line, a
whisper in the shadows podcast.
If you're a current or currentor past police officer, whether
you've worked undercover or not,I would love to have you on
this episode, on this podcast,to talk about your experiences
and things that have happened.
So my email is whisper in theshadowspodcastatgmailcom.
(39:25):
Thank you very much, garth.
Thank you to everyone.
I hope you've enjoyed thisepisode and you've found it
enlightening.
We will catch you next time.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'llagain explore the human side of
(39:48):
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
(40:09):
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
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The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.