July 15, 2024 • 41 mins
What happens when a seasoned UK police officer moves across the globe to Australia? Join us in a compelling discussion with Greg Kingston, who takes us from his early days navigating the high-crime streets of Dover and Dartford to the intense world of surveillance operations. Discover the thrill and rigor of undercover work targeting drug dealers and how Greg's transition into a specialized surveillance team marked a pinnacle in his career.
Greg’s journey doesn’t stop there. Learn about the cultural and operational shifts he experienced when he moved to Australia, and how his communication skills honed in the UK became a valuable asset Down Under. As Greg reflects on his career, he opens up about the emotional toll of policing, the political pressures that come with the badge, and the surprising warmth he encountered in Australian communities.
This episode also exposes the myths and realities of police surveillance, shedding light on the long hours of waiting and the unpredictable nature of the job. Greg shares his personal story of managing stress and trauma through exercise rather than alcohol, offering a raw and heartfelt look at the human side of law enforcement. Join us for an authentic and eye-opening conversation that reveals the true essence of life behind the badge.
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If you would like to be involved in a "Whisper In The Shadows" Podcast through talking about your experiences as an current or former Police/Law Enforcement Officer or tell your stories then I'd love to hear from you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome to Behind the Thin BlueLine a Whisper in the Shadows
(01:30):
podcast, where I explore thehuman side of policing and law
enforcement.
I hope you're enjoying ourconversations with former and
current police officers anddelving into the complexity
police complexity of policing,rather and how it affects the
human side of police.
As a person, I'm JasonSomerville and I was a
Queensland police officer fornearly 14 years as well as and
how it affects the human side ofpolice.
As a person, I'm JasonSomerville and I was a
Queensland police officer fornearly 14 years, as well as an
undercover cop for two of thoseyears.
(01:51):
You will have been listening tomy stories of my time
undercover through my alter ego,michael Bates.
Well, I've decided it is timewe heard from other cops and let
them tell their stories.
Today I'm chatting with GregKingston, who is a current
serving police officer inAustralia and who also worked as
both general duties andsurveillance in the United
Kingdom.
(02:11):
Good afternoon, greg.
How are you today?
I'm very well, thank you, andyourself, mate.
I cannot complain.
It is almost time to sit downand watch the news.
Yep.
Thank you for agreeing to jointhe podcast and for agreeing to
have a chat about your policingexperiences.
You're welcome.
(02:32):
Now, what I always like to dois start off with our guests
giving us a brief overview oftheir career to date, where they
started, what they did, etc.
Given you've got two careers, Iguess we'll start at the
beginning and work to where youare now.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, so I joined a camp police in england in 19 I
was just approaching 26 yearsold at the time and I worked at
two police stations doinggeneral justice, policing Dover,
which is a port town, closestport to France, to Europe, so
(03:12):
that was very busy.
And then my partner and andthen wife Katie, was a police
officer in London.
So we made the decision to movecloser to London and I then
moved up to a place or a towncalled Dartford, which is nearly
an outer suburb of London nowbut very close to London.
So again, very busy.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
When you say very close to London.
So are we talking two?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
hours or no, we're talking 15 minutes.
Oh okay, you could be in one ofthe outer boroughs of London in
10 to 15 minutes.
Okay.
So, quite a lot of cross-bordercrime between both Ken
criminals going into London andthen London criminals coming out
.
Okay.
So yeah, the four U's GeneralDuties.
(03:58):
During my time at Dover we had aguy come to our team, our
General Duties team team, thathad been on the surveillance
team yeah and while he wasn'tvery forthcoming with a lot of
information, as I'm sure you andthe listeners, viewers can
imagine, it piqued my interestto follow that, if I could
(04:21):
follow that kind of career pathis there a reason he he wasn't
very forthcoming about it.
More because they're quitesecretive about the tactics that
they use, and some of theoperations were still ongoing,
particularly where we wereworking.
So he didn't want to give awaywho we were looking at, because
you know what general dutiescoppers are like they like to
(04:43):
get involved in stuff theyshouldn't do so and gossip, yes,
exactly.
So he gave enough away.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
that piqued my interest yep, so he was actually
still working there.
He's not like he came back togeneral duties yeah, no, he was.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
He came back to general duties, okay, yep.
So he had been a surveillanceofficer, was kind of winding
down and just wanted something alittle bit more consistent,
time-wise, yep, and came togeneral duties for his last few
years, okay.
So, yeah, I was quite fortunatethat a sergeant on promotion
came to my team at Dover fromthe intelligence unit and we
(05:20):
then worked extremely closelywith the intel unit which led to
some it wasn't unauthorizedfoot surveillance but we would
do some operations in the town,yeah, and we ended up catching
one of the better known localdrug dealers with a fairly
substantial amount of heroin.
And again, that just kind ofreally piqued my interest and
(05:42):
wanted, or made me want, topursue a career or certainly a
position with the surveillanceteam.
So after two years at Dover Ithen moved up to Dartford and
during my time at Dartford Icompleted an, a UC course.
Yeah, like it was a testpurchase course rather than the
UC, so you weren't a full UC butyou did some of the UC course
(06:07):
and I then deployed a number oftimes as a test purchaser
against drug dealers and peoplewith stolen property and stuff
like that.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
What do you mean by a test purchaser?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
sorry, so you would, almost you would pretend to be
someone you weren't, as you'vesaid previously, and you would
contact people that we knew wereselling drugs and you'd
eventually try and persuade themto meet you and sell you drugs
them.
But you know you get wind ofpeople that were selling stolen
(06:38):
cars, so you would go along andhave a look at the car and find
out where it came from, etc.
And just build up that evidencepicture and if you ended up
buying the car, you'd drive awaywith it and that was your
evidence to then go back and andarrest them.
So it was almost like by bustsin a general by busts, yeah.
(06:59):
So you know a very short term,almost a very short term, uc
role, yep, okay but did youenjoy?
Speaker 1 (07:05):
that?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
I did.
Yeah, unfortunate was so.
Fortunately or unfortunately, Iwas deemed what was probably a
little bit too clean cut for theheroin trade.
Yeah, so I never really wentagainst heroin.
So it was more cocaine, thehigher end drugs, and cocaine
ecstasy, that kind of thing, yep.
But the test purchases I did,you know, were for not
(07:30):
reasonably high-end cars, butsome certainly nice cars, and
but on one occasion I gotscruffed up as a gardener and
went in and bought a thousandpounds, so a couple of thousand
dollar lawnmower which had beenstolen from a local place and we
knew this place was sellingdodgy gear.
So it wasn't just lawnmowers itwas.
It was generally that kind ofstuff, but it was a dodgy
(07:50):
secondhand place.
But the unit that ran the testpurchase team was also part of
what was called the centraloperations group, which had the
surveillance team under itsbanner as well.
Yeah, and again I was awarethat there were surveillance
officers watching me when I wascompleting test purchases.
Yeah, and they would then takeaway the baddie when I went off
(08:12):
with the vehicle or the drugsthey would then follow.
So again, it was all kind ofleading to, you know, just
pursuing that surveillance rolemore.
And then midway through 2002 anadvert came out for the
surveillance team which Iapplied for went through a
fairly rigorous assessmentprocess which involved a number
(08:35):
of tests over the weekend, bothindividually and as a team, to
see how you would get on,including driving around at
extremely high speed through theBritish countryside, the
English countryside, to try andmake you sick.
And were you, I wasn't.
No, I've actually got areasonably strong stomach, but I
(08:56):
have been in cars when I thenbecame a surveillance officer
and we'd do those sameassessments where we were
successful in making some of thepoor guys and girls stop the
car and open the door.
So yeah, then late 2002 I was.
I completed a national levelone surveillance course, but it
was run in-house by kentofficers who were level one
(09:20):
trainers, yep, and at the end ofthat I was successful in
obtaining a position on thesurveillance thing so you did
the hard yards, you, you, youbasically built your career with
that goal in mind I didI was never entirely sure I was
going to get there because itwas always deemed as being a bit
of a dead man's shoe spot.
(09:42):
But once you were in you almostget carried out in a box.
Yep, or it was jobs for theboys.
So if you knew someone, thatknew someone or that kind of
thing, then you were more likelyto get a spot.
But they struggled for a timeto get officers to join the
surveillance team and it kind ofopened out a little bit more
(10:03):
and some of those of us thatthought we might never get there
got there and I stayed for 12years eventually.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
And now you're currently sitting in.
I'll let you just I really wantto say which state where you're
sitting.
How did that all come about so?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
my mum's Australian.
She was born and bred, raisedin Sydney.
Yep, she left on a boat with afriend of hers in the late 60s,
met my dad in Canada.
They got married and ended upliving back in the UK.
So I've got, or had, australiansisters in ship from birth.
Yeah, I've visited a number oftimes through the 70s, 80s and
90s, and I came out after I'dfinished school in the early 90s
(10:47):
and spent a good number ofmonths in Sydney and eventually
went back.
It was kind of tight.
It was a recession time, thingswere quite tough, yeah, so I
went back to the UK but alwayskind of felt that I wanted to
come back and at least try andlive in Oz if I could.
But then, as I said, joined thepolice mid-20s and life just
(11:12):
gets under you then, doesn't it?
You know you, you're working.
You then get married, you buy ahouse, you have kids and you
kind of think, well, it's nevergoing to happen.
And I just chanced to see afriend on Facebook of all things
, in uniform, which is where Iam yep and I hadn't seen him for
a number of years because myrole in surveillance and he, as
(11:33):
it turned out, been out here andwe reconnected and he was
actually applying to come backto WA again.
He'd been out here once andleft the police here.
Gone back to my old force inkent.
Yeah, I was applying to comeback out and I went home from
work one day and said to thewife what do you reckon about
moving to australia?
She'd never been before butsaid, yeah, give it a go, kind
(11:56):
of half tongue-in-cheek thinking, yeah, it'll never happen.
And a few months later we weregetting on the plane with two
kids.
And and here we are, 10 yearslater.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, because at WAPOL they went through a really
lean time of getting people,and the only people they could
get were qualified people fromthe UK, which meant and I don't
mean this in a bad way that justabout anyone who applied from
the UK provided that you didn'thave any real issues.
Qpol did the same thing andVicPOL did the same thing as
well.
You know, you got a job.
(12:28):
Basically, yes, yep.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
So, yeah, again, it was a relatively rigorous
assessment process.
Yep, I was initially told,because I'm an Australian
citizen, that I would have hadto come to Perth, but I must
have said something right to oneof the recruitment ladies,
because they managed to fit meon the assessment process in
London.
So we had a fitness test andinterview.
We then had to do exams as well.
(12:52):
So the problem solving Englishand maths, yep, which I believe
they've got rid of now, oh, havethey.
Yes, yeah, it literally.
I think it is an interview.
You have to do a psych test atthe fitness test and complaints
history, and if you pass all ofthat, you basically get a visa
nomination.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
It's not like you need to be able to understand
english or reason or anythinglike that, is it not really?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
no, but I wonder whether part of that is you know
they're lowering standards tomaybe increase the numbers.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
I'm not saying those that are coming out are thick as
a plank of wood, but you know,being honest, the majority of
forces slash services around thecountry are losing members at a
high rate of knots.
We may get into that, we maynot, but there is a huge
(13:45):
attrition rate for a number ofreasons.
So I guess when that happensyou have to lower the the.
I mean, when I went through,the standards were lowered
because they had to have anintake of 400 people.
Well, yep, now is that how I'llget in?
Some people will say yes otherpeople will say no but you know
we had.
We had people in there whoopenly had juvie records and and
(14:10):
and those sorts of things.
They got weeded out over the 12month process but still that's
how far the standards haddropped because we were taking
people, just about anyone,because they had such a huge
intake now a question in regardsto the difference between the,
the policing.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Obviously, in the, the UK, when you're in uniform,
you don't wear a firearm, asidearm, no, no the only thing I
had yes, yeah, the only thing Ihad when I initially joined was
a metal stick and some hurtipepper spray, and that was it.
We didn't have tasers and infact I believe not every copper
(14:54):
in the UK carries a taser still.
Wow, there might be two orthree on the team that are
trained and authorized to use itor carry it anyway trained and
authorized to use it or carry itanyway.
So and I think that's where alot of uk coppers succeed in
coming over to australiaparticularly because without
that use of force option, iefirearm or taser, you've got to
(15:17):
use your mouth to get out of alot of situations.
It's all well and good having abig metal stick and a bit of
spray, but it doesn't work oneverybody.
So you had to be good attalking to people to get
yourself out of situations orresolve a situation.
And I remember going through theinterview process for Waypole
in Australia House in London andI had never had a complaint
(15:40):
when I applied to join Waypole.
So 16 years in the police,never had a complaint.
And the inspector there saidhow the hell have you got
through?
And I said well, you know, Ialways wanted to come in with
the attitude that I want totreat people the way I would
expect to be treated, so I wasnever one that was going going
in fists up ready for a fight.
I would now always want to talkto people and find out what and
(16:02):
why and how we could help.
Or you know what was going tobe the easiest way to get people
in the back of the car orwhatever.
It didn't always work, but yougive it a go and if it succeeds,
then you know.
It's a better situation, Ithink, than just going fisting
and having all sorts of problems.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Oh, most definitely.
How long have you been inAustralia now?
Sorry, 10 years.
Have you had any?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
complaints?
No, I had one, stupidly.
It was when I was on liquorenforcement, yeah, and we were
dealing with a situation outsidea nightclub and it got quashed.
To be honest, it never wentanywhere and it was just about
the way that these people hadbeen spoken to.
It wasn't a use of force.
Issue.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
No, no, and I guess where I was going with that was
that it seems to me that here inAustralia people complain about
the police a lot more fortrivial things.
Like you know, they were rudeto me.
I had a complaint.
I was lying on the groundstruggling with a six foot eight
(17:08):
Samoan and a girl came up to meand said you know, I think
someone's stolen my phone andI'm lying in the middle of the
street struggling with this guytrying to arrest me.
And I allegedly turned to herand said how about you fuck off?
Mind you, the video shows itclearly, but I still didn't ask
(17:29):
for that.
But the point is, do you knowwhat I mean?
It's like yeah there seems to bea lot more.
What's the word people?
People do it because we've madea big thing out of it with the
various crime and misconductcommissions around the country.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yep, and I think people these days are too quick
to make a complaint, rather thanactually looking at their own
behavior and thinking well,maybe I shouldn't have pestered
that copper while he waswrestling on the ground?
Yeah, and did I deserve to betold where to go?
Yeah, probably.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
But I'll make a complaint because it makes me
feel better yeah, well it is, itgot looked at and they said,
yeah right, fair enough, maybeyou shouldn't have sworn.
I said I didn't.
I told her to go away, so nowyou're finishing up.
You said very soon.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I will be.
Yes, so probably end ofSeptember, early October, I'll
be leaving Waypole.
And why is that so?
My wife started a business in2020, which has just become more
and more successful year onyear.
It's a canteen cateringbusiness that currently operates
(18:34):
in 19 school canteens in thesouth of perth or south of perth
area.
Yeah, we're getting moreinquiries all the time, so I'm
part-time at the moment havebeen for the last three years,
initially to help out with mydaughter, who was diagnosed with
autism around 2020 as well.
(18:55):
Yeah, she had therapies throughthe school day that my wife
couldn't always leave her workfor, so we kind of reversed
roles she went full-time and Iwent part-time, but I've kind of
ended up working more for thebusiness than running my
daughter around.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
So it's just easier to leave the police.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, it is.
It's either I leave the policeand come across and help my wife
full-time or we pay someone todo what I'm doing.
And given how much the businesshas grown and continues to grow
, it just makes sense for me toleave and take the opportunity
to go full-time and run thebusiness, and that's fair enough
(19:43):
.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I just want to circle back to something we were
talking about in regards to thedifference, you know, not having
a firearm and then having afirearm.
The difference, you know, nothaving a firearm and then having
a firearm.
Did that concern you when youfirst started working, uh, in
western australia, that you know, or perth, that you had to
carry a firearm?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
it didn't, and I think that probably goes back to
the fact that I was anauthorized firearms officer for
my surveillance role, so Iunderstood firearms training in
2019 for the glock.
It wasn't a routine carry.
It was only when we hadintelligence that either the
subject we were following or anyassociates of his had ready
(20:22):
access to firearms that we wouldcarry, and I think in the five
years following my course Iprobably only carried five or
six times.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It wasn't very regular at all okay, so I was
used to handling and carrying afirearm do you think it makes a
difference to how the publicinteract with you?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
it's certainly a point of talk of conversation
yeah but I also think thatAustralians are used to seeing
coppers with firearms, so foreveryday Australians it's not a
big issue, I think for the UKcops or anyone from the
Commonwealth countries thatcomes across that haven't
(21:04):
carried firearms, I think it iscertainly something that you
have at the back of your mind,probably more than the local
recruits, but so it neverbothered me and all of the what
they call the transitionalofficers that have come across.
Yeah, I've not had an issuewith it.
It's just another tool of thejob really it is it's like your
(21:27):
phone, it's like your baton.
It's there.
If you need to use it, touchwood.
I've never had to draw it inanger and hopefully that stays
the case before I go.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I used to hate what's the best way of putting this?
It used to scare me that I hadto carry it.
Yeah, but I was glad it wasthere.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yes, because.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
I have had to pull it out and point it at someone Yep
, and it was there, yes, becauseI I have had to pull it out and
point it at someone, yep, andso at that stage I was glad it
was there, but it used to scareme having to carry it because it
was like you know, you don'twant to have this thing here,
where you might actually have touse it on someone.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
It's a massive responsibility and the
consequences if you have to drawit and fire it, we all know.
You know of coppers and it'swell documented in the news.
You know what happens tocoppers that do shoot people
these days.
Yes, and I often think I thinkI'm fairly convinced now that
any copper that shoots someone,regardless of the circumstances,
(22:24):
the outcome will always bepolitically motivated, because
the executive in the policeforces don't want to be the ones
to say we're not charging himbecause of this, we'll let the
court do it.
So they will charge the copper,put the copper through the
ringer for a number of yearsbefore it gets resolved and
either finding a guilty or notguilty.
(22:46):
That comes through.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
But and I think you know that that's the way it's
going at the moment I, I, Iagree, and that probably has a
big bearing on why there are somany people leaving the various
police, police forces around thecountry all right let's change
tack a little bit.
What did you want to be when?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
you were growing up, I didn't have a clue.
To be be honest, yeah, I leftschool, so I went through my
last couple of years at school.
I did A-levels in sportsstudies and business studies.
Yeah, and my intention onleaving school was to take a
year out, do the travel which Idid, came over to Australia, as
(23:26):
I said, in the early 90s.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
That's quite a gap year, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, 90s gap year, yeah, yeah, and I had all
intentions of going back to theuk at some point, whether it was
six months or a year later, anddoing some kind of sports
degree whether that was insports management, sports center
management, something like thatyeah, never.
I mean, you see the emergencyservices, I want to be a fireman
, I want to a policeman.
I want to do this when you'regrowing up.
(23:50):
You know, seven, eight, nine,ten kind of tongue in cheek, but
I didn't leave school wantingto be a police officer.
As I said, when I got back fromAustralia it was in the middle
of a recession and the only jobI could find was in real estate
of all things, which wassuffering probably the most of
anything at the time during thatfinancial crisis, and I just
(24:14):
kind of bumbled from differentcompany to different company and
it got to the point where I wasprobably 24, I suppose, and I
thought I can't just keep doingthis for the rest of my life.
I thought I wasn't enjoying thejob particularly.
Yeah, it was very cutthroat,the pay was pretty crap for the
hours that you were doing, andI'd had a few friends join the
(24:35):
police from school and I kept intouch with them and we'd often
catch up and talk about.
Particularly one guy talked tohim and and he was still very
complimentary in the police atthat time, the late 90s I think
we were still seen as people tobe respected.
(24:58):
Not, I don't think we are now,but I think that respect from
the public has probably dwindledover the years.
Why do you think that is?
I think they look at coppers ashaving the power and they don't
like people having the powerover them.
I think the the days of likethe facebook mentality, as you
were saying earlier.
People are too quick to make acomplaint rather than stepping
(25:19):
back and actually looking at thebigger picture and what has
happened.
Yeah, and yeah, I think it'sjust.
It's all too easy to criticizeand have not hatred, but have
maybe a disrespect of peopletrying to do the job.
Although, having said that, Ido feel that the public in
australia, when I certainly cameacross in 2014, it shocked me
(25:43):
to a degree.
I was walking along the streetwhen I was doing my driver
training.
Yeah, and you know people weresaying hello to us, you know,
and it wasn't forced, it was.
You know they were genuine, howare you going?
And that kind of thing.
And it did take me by surprisebecause you wouldn't have got
that in England at all at alland that's right.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Look, I think, I think one of the big things that
that I've sort of over theyears and you know it's been oh
what, 20 years since I've beenout one of the big things is, I
guess, a lack of policepromoting what they do.
Police talking about themselvesin a positive sense, yeah,
anyone talking about police in apositive sense it's always
(26:23):
negative, negative, negative,yeah, and I, I personally
believe that has a lot to dowith the slide in public
confidence, to slide in inpublic awareness of police.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
If that's the right way of putting it yep, yep.
And the media as well are veryquick to jump on the negative.
Yeah, you know the I can'tbelieve the news stations here.
I know wa is not a particularlybusy state with things, but
they're on everything quickerthan you could shake a stick at
and generally it's.
You know they want the kind ofthe big ticket items which
(26:58):
generally is going to besomething serious.
That's happened and it's goingto be the headline grabbers and
it's not normally.
The policeman rescued the catfrom the tree.
It's going to be.
The police chased down thisperson and this person crashed
and they're injured.
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
So they just ran from the police exactly, yeah, yeah
yeah, or why the person?
ran yeah and yeah, that's a muchbigger thing.
But I guess part of me doingthis this whole conversation
interview series is to try andget out there to people to say,
you know, police are real people.
They've got things that thatthat probably impact them more
than what other people have intheir daily life.
(27:33):
And maybe, you know, most ofthem went into the job with good
intentions and and came out ofthe job with good intentions.
Yeah, all right.
So we spoke about how youbecame a police officer and we
spoke about how you got intosurveillance.
What I might do is sort of moveon to things that when people
think of surveillance, theygenerally think of.
(27:55):
You know people sitting in vansor shadowy people hiding, you
know, watching what's going onor taping, tapping phones and
seeing there with headphones ongoing oh, I've got them.
Yeah, what do you think?
Some of the common myths aboutbeing a surveillance, being in
surveillance, are are I thinkprobably the biggest one is that
you're always on the go.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
You know your, your subject is, is always on the
move and you never stop, whereasin reality you could sit in the
car for eight hours and readthe paper, have a coffee and
maybe even close your eyes for alittle bit of time and not see
your subject all day.
But there's stuff going onbehind the scenes that you know
will assist us to understandwhat the subject's doing and
(28:40):
when things are likely to getbusy.
And you've got as asurveillance officer, you've got
to have that ability to switchon at the drop of a hat.
Yep, you know, you might havesat there for eight hours and be
expecting to to be right, we'redone for the day, let's all go
home and, you know, at sevenhours and 59 minutes the subject
comes out of the door andyou're on the go for another
(29:01):
eight, 10, 12 hours and youdon't know where you're going to
end up at the end of the day.
There's numerous times we usedto have I suppose they're called
go bags, but you'd have a bagin the boot of the car which
would have a change of clothesand you know, fresh undies and
toiletries and that kind ofthing, because numerous times we
(29:22):
would start the day and we'dend up in another part of the
country and there's no way wewere getting back to home base
before you know a reasonabletime had passed.
Very much hurry up and wait.
Definitely, definitely, butwhen it goes it's the best job
in the world yeah, it really was.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Now I know you've got some examples of that and we'll
come to that in shortly.
I just want to explore a coupleof other things breaking into
houses not breaking into houses,sorry, okay, breaking into
houses or entering houses andtapping putting in phone, taps,
you know, drilling holes inwalls, put cameras in and that
sort of stuff does that allhappen?
It did it does.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah, I wasn't involved in that.
The closest I got to that wasputting devices on vehicles to
to follow them without actuallyhaving a vehicle behind them,
which everybody knows about.
There's no secret.
But we had a different teamthat was exceptionally highly
trained that would break intohouses and leave a trace and
(30:21):
they'd be doing things withphones and recording devices
that the movies pretty wellcover these days.
So it's not a trade secretanymore.
But yeah, it does happen.
But there's a big circuit circleof security around those guys
that are doing that, because youcan't have them compromised at
any point no, this is very trueyeah, as a surveillance officer,
(30:44):
my role wasn't to to do thatelement, it was to provide the
security, you know, that part ofthat ring around the outside of
them, and I don't mean sittingoutside the front door watching.
I mean we would either take thesubject away or we would
provide a barrier between theyou know the location, the
vehicle, whatever and and theguys doing the bits, what's what
was the most difficult part ofdoing surveillance, apart from
(31:06):
the hurry up and waiting my wifealways says to me, if we hadn't
moved to australia, we probablywould have been divorced by now
because as a you know youngfamily and my wife was a police
officer in london as well yepshe couldn't rely on me for
child care at all because mondayto friday and then we were on
call every other weekend.
(31:27):
I didn't know when I was goingto start and when I was going to
finish, so I couldn't be around.
And I think that's the biggestthing is the take away from the
family.
The days where we don't do longhours it's great because you're
home, but that's few and farbetween.
So it's a single means game.
It is or you've got to have avery supportive partner, and I
(31:50):
was very lucky that my wife wassupportive.
As I say, she was a policeofficer as well, but when our
first and then second child camealong, it was a big burden on
her.
Although she went part-timeherself, she was still
travelling from where we livedinto London, which was probably
an hour each way for her atminimum.
So she was working 12 hour daysand then having to worry about
(32:13):
the kids and you know the kidsbefore she went to school or
sorry, work, and then when shegot home from work.
So yeah, it's a massive impacton your personal life and, you
know, unless you've got someonethat can support you in the way
that my wife did, it's reallynot a married stroke family
(32:35):
person's game.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And that's fair enough.
Undercover's probably verysimilar.
The Undercover of the Week isprobably very similar as well.
Yeah, what's somethingsurprising.
You've learned about yourselfdoing policing.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, I think maybe my I'm not the biggest, toughest
, roughest guy out there.
I was never a fighter.
At school I'd always ratherwalk away from something unless
I had to but also my mentalresilience going into it.
I'd never seen a dead person,I'd never dealt with copious
(33:09):
amounts of blood, I'd never hadto.
Kind of, as I say, you takesomeone to liberty and you get
the sob stories and probably alittle bit of a soft in.
You might fall for them everyso often, but I think you kind
of have to detach yourself fromthe person that you are outside
of work and compartmentalise.
(33:30):
What you see at work is whatwork is.
And then you know, know, whenyou go home you kind of keep
back to yourself, unless, as Isaid, my wife was a police
officer and she saw some prettygrotty things herself, so I was
able to offload on her as shewas able to offload on me.
But it's not something that youtalk to your mates about.
You know what you've seen at aroad accident or you know
(33:51):
someone hanging out of a roofhatch with a rope around their
neck and that kind of thing.
So, having been maybe a softieat school and growing that was,
one of my concerns was how Iwould deal with those more
difficult, darker issues thatyou encounter as a police
officer, yet still trying toremain human with those that you
(34:13):
have arrested and you want to.
I always wanted to be as fairas I could, yet still trying to
remain, you know, human withthose that you have arrested and
you know you want to.
I always wanted to be as fairas I could, yeah, and I think
I've achieved that throughnearly 26 years, or over 26
years now, but yeah, sorry sorry.
Let's say you see some thingsthrough this career that you
don't anticipate you're going tosee when you first join.
(34:33):
It's one of those things thatyou know happens but and that
you're likely to see it, butwhen you do come across it.
I remember the first time I sawa dead body, and it was an old
lady in a nursing home, so itwasn't anything gruesome it was
this little old lady lying in abed and all I could think about
was my nana, who was about thesame age and lived probably 10
minutes away, unfortunately.
(34:55):
I could go and give her a hugafter I've been to that job,
yeah, but you know, it's just.
You know, the first time yousee it.
It takes, you know, a littlebit of getting used to and you
do become a little bit, notblasé desensitized desensitized
definitely okay.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
So and this is this is what I find really
interesting how did you learn tocope with those sorts of okay?
You become desensitized over aperiod of time.
My first dead body was wayworse than a little uh little
old lady in a bed dying at homewell my second was probably
twice as bad as well.
Yeah, how do.
(35:32):
How did you learn to cope withthose sorts of things?
You talked aboutcompartmentalising.
Was there anything else you did?
Speaker 2 (35:42):
At the time I was fairly big into cycling, yeah,
and that was my release.
So when I got the opportunitycertainly before kids I would
just get on the bike and I wouldnot punish myself, but I would
push myself to the limit just tokind of not exercise the demons
but just kind of wear myselfout to the point where you know
(36:04):
I was absolutely exhausted andthat exercise really was my way,
my way of dealing with it, Ithink was, was it exercise?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
and let me know if we get too too deep here, because
you were just talking about thefact that you, you did this
until you wore yourself out andyou pushed yourself.
Yeah, and my, my initialthoughts is that you did that,
so you were tired and you canget some sleep.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, yeah, and and that probably, looking back now,
that was probably exactly it,you know I would go out and I
would not hurt myself, but Iwould push myself to the point
where I was physically exhausted, you know, and I'd get off the
bike and sometimes just collapsebecause my legs were gone.
But I found I never foundalcohol was a great help.
(36:49):
No, I wasn't a big drinker, andstill not a big drinker.
I enjoy a drink but you know,it wasn't something that I
turned to because I'd seen adead body.
I dealt with a nasty situationand, as I say, the exercise was
the one thing that I used tojust kind of get out and just
get away from everything.
It was me and the bike and thefresh air and it gave me
(37:11):
thinking time as well.
You know, I'd often find myselfthinking back to either events
of the day or, you know,previous weeks, even years gone
by, and it was a good way ofkind of decompressing as well, I
think, because you could talkto yourself while you're riding
the bike.
You could work things throughon your brain.
I probably look like some kindof weirdo riding, riding along
before the days of you know,bluetooth stuff.
(37:33):
So yeah, it was just a good wayof getting out and resolving
the situation in my head beforeit then became an issue, you
know, at home or at work or withfriends.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Now this question is probably more around being in
uniform and everyday interactionwith people, but you know,
working what you've done, youwould have had to deal with
people in different levels, indifferent ways as well.
Do you think that any of that,any of the things you've
experienced, has had an impacton how you've dealt with people?
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I'd like to say no yeah because, as I said earlier,
I've always, when I've alwaysput, or when I've put, the
uniform on, I've always wantedto treat everybody with the
respect that they deserve andI'm you know I expect that
respect back.
You don't always get it, but Ihaven't let situations that I've
(38:29):
dealt with previously kind ofcloud my judgment into how I
treat somebody else.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
What if you don't get there?
And you just you've said youknow you expect respect back.
If you're not getting that,what?
What buttons does that push?
And we can hardly talk aboutthis if you don't want.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yeah, no, no, it's fine, it pushes the wrong ones
for sure you know, because youyou're asking people to do
things, they're not doing it orthey're giving you a gob full of
abuse.
So I found at the beginning ofCOVID it's a fairly good example
, I think.
Yeah, my tolerance levelbecause I was in an office, I
was working at firearmslicensing yeah, beginning of
(39:19):
COVID, we got turfed out of theoffice because they deemed it
not to be an essential serviceat the time was back in uniform,
went to man what we calledregional roadblocks, so people
weren't allowed to move outsidetheir region in wa and if you
wanted to, you had to getbasically a passport, an
authority to go.
And it ended up that the oic ofthe station, I, was asked us if
we'd mind doing some tasking sothe guys that were tasking
could have a break and go to theroadblocks, because it was a
fairly easy gig sitting on yourbackside for 10 hours checking
everyone was coming through withthe right authority.
(39:42):
And we went to a domestic wherethe guy had gone wandering off
with his kid in a pair of boxes,I believe it was, and she came
out of the side door and justgave us a mouthful of abuse
before we'd even said hello toher and I just lost it and I
just went back off her and therewas a few F's and a few Jeff's
(40:02):
thrown in there yepand she looked at me, called me
an old C, told me that I wasn'tallowed in the house, which I
was quite happy about.
My younger colleague wasallowed in and managed to
resolve the situation.
But it was just my tolerancelevel for people's own issues
that aren't police issues.
You know, everybody has anargument and I get.
(40:25):
Domestic violence is a massiveissue across the world, really
not just Australia.
You know we're not alone inthat problem, but it was, you
know, just it was a stupidargument and she'd actually
thrown a thong at him which hadgone through a front window
which she was then trying toclaim he'd thrown at her, and
all sorts of things you knowMust have been a big thong.
Yeah, it was one of those wreaththings, I think.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Oh, yeah, fairly weighty.
And it I just my tolerance levelhad gone okay.
So we've run out of time forpart one of the conversation
with Greg Kingston and we'llleave this episode here.
Join us next week for part twoof my conversation with Greg
Kingston and we talk about howpolicing has affected him and
(41:10):
what he's going to do next.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode we'll againexplore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
(41:31):
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome to Behind the Thin BlueLine a Whisper in the Shadows
(01:30):
podcast, where I explore thehuman side of policing and law
enforcement.
I hope you're enjoying ourconversations with former and
current police officers anddelving into the complexity
police complexity of policing,rather and how it affects the
human side of police.
As a person, I'm JasonSomerville and I was a
Queensland police officer fornearly 14 years as well as and
how it affects the human side ofpolice.
As a person, I'm JasonSomerville and I was a
Queensland police officer fornearly 14 years, as well as an
undercover cop for two of thoseyears.
(01:51):
You will have been listening tomy stories of my time
undercover through my alter ego,michael Bates.
Well, I've decided it is timewe heard from other cops and let
them tell their stories.
Today I'm chatting with GregKingston, who is a current
serving police officer inAustralia and who also worked as
both general duties andsurveillance in the United
Kingdom.
(02:11):
Good afternoon, greg.
How are you today?
I'm very well, thank you, andyourself, mate.
I cannot complain.
It is almost time to sit downand watch the news.
Yep.
Thank you for agreeing to jointhe podcast and for agreeing to
have a chat about your policingexperiences.
You're welcome.
(02:32):
Now, what I always like to dois start off with our guests
giving us a brief overview oftheir career to date, where they
started, what they did, etc.
Given you've got two careers, Iguess we'll start at the
beginning and work to where youare now.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, so I joined a camp police in england in 19 I
was just approaching 26 yearsold at the time and I worked at
two police stations doinggeneral justice, policing Dover,
which is a port town, closestport to France, to Europe, so
(03:12):
that was very busy.
And then my partner and andthen wife Katie, was a police
officer in London.
So we made the decision to movecloser to London and I then
moved up to a place or a towncalled Dartford, which is nearly
an outer suburb of London nowbut very close to London.
So again, very busy.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
When you say very close to London.
So are we talking two?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
hours or no, we're talking 15 minutes.
Oh okay, you could be in one ofthe outer boroughs of London in
10 to 15 minutes.
Okay.
So, quite a lot of cross-bordercrime between both Ken
criminals going into London andthen London criminals coming out
.
Okay.
So yeah, the four U's GeneralDuties.
(03:58):
During my time at Dover we had aguy come to our team, our
General Duties team team, thathad been on the surveillance
team yeah and while he wasn'tvery forthcoming with a lot of
information, as I'm sure you andthe listeners, viewers can
imagine, it piqued my interestto follow that, if I could
(04:21):
follow that kind of career pathis there a reason he he wasn't
very forthcoming about it.
More because they're quitesecretive about the tactics that
they use, and some of theoperations were still ongoing,
particularly where we wereworking.
So he didn't want to give awaywho we were looking at, because
you know what general dutiescoppers are like they like to
(04:43):
get involved in stuff theyshouldn't do so and gossip, yes,
exactly.
So he gave enough away.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
that piqued my interest yep, so he was actually
still working there.
He's not like he came back togeneral duties yeah, no, he was.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
He came back to general duties, okay, yep.
So he had been a surveillanceofficer, was kind of winding
down and just wanted something alittle bit more consistent,
time-wise, yep, and came togeneral duties for his last few
years, okay.
So, yeah, I was quite fortunatethat a sergeant on promotion
came to my team at Dover fromthe intelligence unit and we
(05:20):
then worked extremely closelywith the intel unit which led to
some it wasn't unauthorizedfoot surveillance but we would
do some operations in the town,yeah, and we ended up catching
one of the better known localdrug dealers with a fairly
substantial amount of heroin.
And again, that just kind ofreally piqued my interest and
(05:42):
wanted, or made me want, topursue a career or certainly a
position with the surveillanceteam.
So after two years at Dover Ithen moved up to Dartford and
during my time at Dartford Icompleted an, a UC course.
Yeah, like it was a testpurchase course rather than the
UC, so you weren't a full UC butyou did some of the UC course
(06:07):
and I then deployed a number oftimes as a test purchaser
against drug dealers and peoplewith stolen property and stuff
like that.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
What do you mean by a test purchaser?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
sorry, so you would, almost you would pretend to be
someone you weren't, as you'vesaid previously, and you would
contact people that we knew wereselling drugs and you'd
eventually try and persuade themto meet you and sell you drugs
them.
But you know you get wind ofpeople that were selling stolen
(06:38):
cars, so you would go along andhave a look at the car and find
out where it came from, etc.
And just build up that evidencepicture and if you ended up
buying the car, you'd drive awaywith it and that was your
evidence to then go back and andarrest them.
So it was almost like by bustsin a general by busts, yeah.
(06:59):
So you know a very short term,almost a very short term, uc
role, yep, okay but did youenjoy?
Speaker 1 (07:05):
that?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
I did.
Yeah, unfortunate was so.
Fortunately or unfortunately, Iwas deemed what was probably a
little bit too clean cut for theheroin trade.
Yeah, so I never really wentagainst heroin.
So it was more cocaine, thehigher end drugs, and cocaine
ecstasy, that kind of thing, yep.
But the test purchases I did,you know, were for not
(07:30):
reasonably high-end cars, butsome certainly nice cars, and
but on one occasion I gotscruffed up as a gardener and
went in and bought a thousandpounds, so a couple of thousand
dollar lawnmower which had beenstolen from a local place and we
knew this place was sellingdodgy gear.
So it wasn't just lawnmowers itwas.
It was generally that kind ofstuff, but it was a dodgy
(07:50):
secondhand place.
But the unit that ran the testpurchase team was also part of
what was called the centraloperations group, which had the
surveillance team under itsbanner as well.
Yeah, and again I was awarethat there were surveillance
officers watching me when I wascompleting test purchases.
Yeah, and they would then takeaway the baddie when I went off
(08:12):
with the vehicle or the drugsthey would then follow.
So again, it was all kind ofleading to, you know, just
pursuing that surveillance rolemore.
And then midway through 2002 anadvert came out for the
surveillance team which Iapplied for went through a
fairly rigorous assessmentprocess which involved a number
(08:35):
of tests over the weekend, bothindividually and as a team, to
see how you would get on,including driving around at
extremely high speed through theBritish countryside, the
English countryside, to try andmake you sick.
And were you, I wasn't.
No, I've actually got areasonably strong stomach, but I
(08:56):
have been in cars when I thenbecame a surveillance officer
and we'd do those sameassessments where we were
successful in making some of thepoor guys and girls stop the
car and open the door.
So yeah, then late 2002 I was.
I completed a national levelone surveillance course, but it
was run in-house by kentofficers who were level one
(09:20):
trainers, yep, and at the end ofthat I was successful in
obtaining a position on thesurveillance thing so you did
the hard yards, you, you, youbasically built your career with
that goal in mind I didI was never entirely sure I was
going to get there because itwas always deemed as being a bit
of a dead man's shoe spot.
(09:42):
But once you were in you almostget carried out in a box.
Yep, or it was jobs for theboys.
So if you knew someone, thatknew someone or that kind of
thing, then you were more likelyto get a spot.
But they struggled for a timeto get officers to join the
surveillance team and it kind ofopened out a little bit more
(10:03):
and some of those of us thatthought we might never get there
got there and I stayed for 12years eventually.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
And now you're currently sitting in.
I'll let you just I really wantto say which state where you're
sitting.
How did that all come about so?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
my mum's Australian.
She was born and bred, raisedin Sydney.
Yep, she left on a boat with afriend of hers in the late 60s,
met my dad in Canada.
They got married and ended upliving back in the UK.
So I've got, or had, australiansisters in ship from birth.
Yeah, I've visited a number oftimes through the 70s, 80s and
90s, and I came out after I'dfinished school in the early 90s
(10:47):
and spent a good number ofmonths in Sydney and eventually
went back.
It was kind of tight.
It was a recession time, thingswere quite tough, yeah, so I
went back to the UK but alwayskind of felt that I wanted to
come back and at least try andlive in Oz if I could.
But then, as I said, joined thepolice mid-20s and life just
(11:12):
gets under you then, doesn't it?
You know you, you're working.
You then get married, you buy ahouse, you have kids and you
kind of think, well, it's nevergoing to happen.
And I just chanced to see afriend on Facebook of all things
, in uniform, which is where Iam yep and I hadn't seen him for
a number of years because myrole in surveillance and he, as
(11:33):
it turned out, been out here andwe reconnected and he was
actually applying to come backto WA again.
He'd been out here once andleft the police here.
Gone back to my old force inkent.
Yeah, I was applying to comeback out and I went home from
work one day and said to thewife what do you reckon about
moving to australia?
She'd never been before butsaid, yeah, give it a go, kind
(11:56):
of half tongue-in-cheek thinking, yeah, it'll never happen.
And a few months later we weregetting on the plane with two
kids.
And and here we are, 10 yearslater.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, because at WAPOL they went through a really
lean time of getting people,and the only people they could
get were qualified people fromthe UK, which meant and I don't
mean this in a bad way that justabout anyone who applied from
the UK provided that you didn'thave any real issues.
Qpol did the same thing andVicPOL did the same thing as
well.
You know, you got a job.
(12:28):
Basically, yes, yep.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
So, yeah, again, it was a relatively rigorous
assessment process.
Yep, I was initially told,because I'm an Australian
citizen, that I would have hadto come to Perth, but I must
have said something right to oneof the recruitment ladies,
because they managed to fit meon the assessment process in
London.
So we had a fitness test andinterview.
We then had to do exams as well.
(12:52):
So the problem solving Englishand maths, yep, which I believe
they've got rid of now, oh, havethey.
Yes, yeah, it literally.
I think it is an interview.
You have to do a psych test atthe fitness test and complaints
history, and if you pass all ofthat, you basically get a visa
nomination.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
It's not like you need to be able to understand
english or reason or anythinglike that, is it not really?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
no, but I wonder whether part of that is you know
they're lowering standards tomaybe increase the numbers.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
I'm not saying those that are coming out are thick as
a plank of wood, but you know,being honest, the majority of
forces slash services around thecountry are losing members at a
high rate of knots.
We may get into that, we maynot, but there is a huge
(13:45):
attrition rate for a number ofreasons.
So I guess when that happensyou have to lower the the.
I mean, when I went through,the standards were lowered
because they had to have anintake of 400 people.
Well, yep, now is that how I'llget in?
Some people will say yes otherpeople will say no but you know
we had.
We had people in there whoopenly had juvie records and and
(14:10):
and those sorts of things.
They got weeded out over the 12month process but still that's
how far the standards haddropped because we were taking
people, just about anyone,because they had such a huge
intake now a question in regardsto the difference between the,
the policing.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Obviously, in the, the UK, when you're in uniform,
you don't wear a firearm, asidearm, no, no the only thing I
had yes, yeah, the only thing Ihad when I initially joined was
a metal stick and some hurtipepper spray, and that was it.
We didn't have tasers and infact I believe not every copper
(14:54):
in the UK carries a taser still.
Wow, there might be two orthree on the team that are
trained and authorized to use itor carry it anyway trained and
authorized to use it or carry itanyway.
So and I think that's where alot of uk coppers succeed in
coming over to australiaparticularly because without
that use of force option, iefirearm or taser, you've got to
(15:17):
use your mouth to get out of alot of situations.
It's all well and good having abig metal stick and a bit of
spray, but it doesn't work oneverybody.
So you had to be good attalking to people to get
yourself out of situations orresolve a situation.
And I remember going through theinterview process for Waypole
in Australia House in London andI had never had a complaint
(15:40):
when I applied to join Waypole.
So 16 years in the police,never had a complaint.
And the inspector there saidhow the hell have you got
through?
And I said well, you know, Ialways wanted to come in with
the attitude that I want totreat people the way I would
expect to be treated, so I wasnever one that was going going
in fists up ready for a fight.
I would now always want to talkto people and find out what and
(16:02):
why and how we could help.
Or you know what was going tobe the easiest way to get people
in the back of the car orwhatever.
It didn't always work, but yougive it a go and if it succeeds,
then you know.
It's a better situation, Ithink, than just going fisting
and having all sorts of problems.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Oh, most definitely.
How long have you been inAustralia now?
Sorry, 10 years.
Have you had any?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
complaints?
No, I had one, stupidly.
It was when I was on liquorenforcement, yeah, and we were
dealing with a situation outsidea nightclub and it got quashed.
To be honest, it never wentanywhere and it was just about
the way that these people hadbeen spoken to.
It wasn't a use of force.
Issue.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
No, no, and I guess where I was going with that was
that it seems to me that here inAustralia people complain about
the police a lot more fortrivial things.
Like you know, they were rudeto me.
I had a complaint.
I was lying on the groundstruggling with a six foot eight
(17:08):
Samoan and a girl came up to meand said you know, I think
someone's stolen my phone andI'm lying in the middle of the
street struggling with this guytrying to arrest me.
And I allegedly turned to herand said how about you fuck off?
Mind you, the video shows itclearly, but I still didn't ask
(17:29):
for that.
But the point is, do you knowwhat I mean?
It's like yeah there seems to bea lot more.
What's the word people?
People do it because we've madea big thing out of it with the
various crime and misconductcommissions around the country.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yep, and I think people these days are too quick
to make a complaint, rather thanactually looking at their own
behavior and thinking well,maybe I shouldn't have pestered
that copper while he waswrestling on the ground?
Yeah, and did I deserve to betold where to go?
Yeah, probably.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
But I'll make a complaint because it makes me
feel better yeah, well it is, itgot looked at and they said,
yeah right, fair enough, maybeyou shouldn't have sworn.
I said I didn't.
I told her to go away, so nowyou're finishing up.
You said very soon.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I will be.
Yes, so probably end ofSeptember, early October, I'll
be leaving Waypole.
And why is that so?
My wife started a business in2020, which has just become more
and more successful year onyear.
It's a canteen cateringbusiness that currently operates
(18:34):
in 19 school canteens in thesouth of perth or south of perth
area.
Yeah, we're getting moreinquiries all the time, so I'm
part-time at the moment havebeen for the last three years,
initially to help out with mydaughter, who was diagnosed with
autism around 2020 as well.
(18:55):
Yeah, she had therapies throughthe school day that my wife
couldn't always leave her workfor, so we kind of reversed
roles she went full-time and Iwent part-time, but I've kind of
ended up working more for thebusiness than running my
daughter around.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
So it's just easier to leave the police.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, it is.
It's either I leave the policeand come across and help my wife
full-time or we pay someone todo what I'm doing.
And given how much the businesshas grown and continues to grow
, it just makes sense for me toleave and take the opportunity
to go full-time and run thebusiness, and that's fair enough
(19:43):
.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I just want to circle back to something we were
talking about in regards to thedifference, you know, not having
a firearm and then having afirearm.
The difference, you know, nothaving a firearm and then having
a firearm.
Did that concern you when youfirst started working, uh, in
western australia, that you know, or perth, that you had to
carry a firearm?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
it didn't, and I think that probably goes back to
the fact that I was anauthorized firearms officer for
my surveillance role, so Iunderstood firearms training in
2019 for the glock.
It wasn't a routine carry.
It was only when we hadintelligence that either the
subject we were following or anyassociates of his had ready
(20:22):
access to firearms that we wouldcarry, and I think in the five
years following my course Iprobably only carried five or
six times.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
It wasn't very regular at all okay, so I was
used to handling and carrying afirearm do you think it makes a
difference to how the publicinteract with you?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
it's certainly a point of talk of conversation
yeah but I also think thatAustralians are used to seeing
coppers with firearms, so foreveryday Australians it's not a
big issue, I think for the UKcops or anyone from the
Commonwealth countries thatcomes across that haven't
(21:04):
carried firearms, I think it iscertainly something that you
have at the back of your mind,probably more than the local
recruits, but so it neverbothered me and all of the what
they call the transitionalofficers that have come across.
Yeah, I've not had an issuewith it.
It's just another tool of thejob really it is it's like your
(21:27):
phone, it's like your baton.
It's there.
If you need to use it, touchwood.
I've never had to draw it inanger and hopefully that stays
the case before I go.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I used to hate what's the best way of putting this?
It used to scare me that I hadto carry it.
Yeah, but I was glad it wasthere.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yes, because.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
I have had to pull it out and point it at someone Yep
, and it was there, yes, becauseI I have had to pull it out and
point it at someone, yep, andso at that stage I was glad it
was there, but it used to scareme having to carry it because it
was like you know, you don'twant to have this thing here,
where you might actually have touse it on someone.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
It's a massive responsibility and the
consequences if you have to drawit and fire it, we all know.
You know of coppers and it'swell documented in the news.
You know what happens tocoppers that do shoot people
these days.
Yes, and I often think I thinkI'm fairly convinced now that
any copper that shoots someone,regardless of the circumstances,
(22:24):
the outcome will always bepolitically motivated, because
the executive in the policeforces don't want to be the ones
to say we're not charging himbecause of this, we'll let the
court do it.
So they will charge the copper,put the copper through the
ringer for a number of yearsbefore it gets resolved and
either finding a guilty or notguilty.
(22:46):
That comes through.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
But and I think you know that that's the way it's
going at the moment I, I, Iagree, and that probably has a
big bearing on why there are somany people leaving the various
police, police forces around thecountry all right let's change
tack a little bit.
What did you want to be when?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
you were growing up, I didn't have a clue.
To be be honest, yeah, I leftschool, so I went through my
last couple of years at school.
I did A-levels in sportsstudies and business studies.
Yeah, and my intention onleaving school was to take a
year out, do the travel which Idid, came over to Australia, as
(23:26):
I said, in the early 90s.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
That's quite a gap year, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, 90s gap year, yeah, yeah, and I had all
intentions of going back to theuk at some point, whether it was
six months or a year later, anddoing some kind of sports
degree whether that was insports management, sports center
management, something like thatyeah, never.
I mean, you see the emergencyservices, I want to be a fireman
, I want to a policeman.
I want to do this when you'regrowing up.
(23:50):
You know, seven, eight, nine,ten kind of tongue in cheek, but
I didn't leave school wantingto be a police officer.
As I said, when I got back fromAustralia it was in the middle
of a recession and the only jobI could find was in real estate
of all things, which wassuffering probably the most of
anything at the time during thatfinancial crisis, and I just
(24:14):
kind of bumbled from differentcompany to different company and
it got to the point where I wasprobably 24, I suppose, and I
thought I can't just keep doingthis for the rest of my life.
I thought I wasn't enjoying thejob particularly.
Yeah, it was very cutthroat,the pay was pretty crap for the
hours that you were doing, andI'd had a few friends join the
(24:35):
police from school and I kept intouch with them and we'd often
catch up and talk about.
Particularly one guy talked tohim and and he was still very
complimentary in the police atthat time, the late 90s I think
we were still seen as people tobe respected.
(24:58):
Not, I don't think we are now,but I think that respect from
the public has probably dwindledover the years.
Why do you think that is?
I think they look at coppers ashaving the power and they don't
like people having the powerover them.
I think the the days of likethe facebook mentality, as you
were saying earlier.
People are too quick to make acomplaint rather than stepping
(25:19):
back and actually looking at thebigger picture and what has
happened.
Yeah, and yeah, I think it'sjust.
It's all too easy to criticizeand have not hatred, but have
maybe a disrespect of peopletrying to do the job.
Although, having said that, Ido feel that the public in
australia, when I certainly cameacross in 2014, it shocked me
(25:43):
to a degree.
I was walking along the streetwhen I was doing my driver
training.
Yeah, and you know people weresaying hello to us, you know,
and it wasn't forced, it was.
You know they were genuine, howare you going?
And that kind of thing.
And it did take me by surprisebecause you wouldn't have got
that in England at all at alland that's right.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Look, I think, I think one of the big things that
that I've sort of over theyears and you know it's been oh
what, 20 years since I've beenout one of the big things is, I
guess, a lack of policepromoting what they do.
Police talking about themselvesin a positive sense, yeah,
anyone talking about police in apositive sense it's always
(26:23):
negative, negative, negative,yeah, and I, I personally
believe that has a lot to dowith the slide in public
confidence, to slide in inpublic awareness of police.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
If that's the right way of putting it yep, yep.
And the media as well are veryquick to jump on the negative.
Yeah, you know the I can'tbelieve the news stations here.
I know wa is not a particularlybusy state with things, but
they're on everything quickerthan you could shake a stick at
and generally it's.
You know they want the kind ofthe big ticket items which
(26:58):
generally is going to besomething serious.
That's happened and it's goingto be the headline grabbers and
it's not normally.
The policeman rescued the catfrom the tree.
It's going to be.
The police chased down thisperson and this person crashed
and they're injured.
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
So they just ran from the police exactly, yeah, yeah
yeah, or why the person?
ran yeah and yeah, that's a muchbigger thing.
But I guess part of me doingthis this whole conversation
interview series is to try andget out there to people to say,
you know, police are real people.
They've got things that thatthat probably impact them more
than what other people have intheir daily life.
(27:33):
And maybe, you know, most ofthem went into the job with good
intentions and and came out ofthe job with good intentions.
Yeah, all right.
So we spoke about how youbecame a police officer and we
spoke about how you got intosurveillance.
What I might do is sort of moveon to things that when people
think of surveillance, theygenerally think of.
(27:55):
You know people sitting in vansor shadowy people hiding, you
know, watching what's going onor taping, tapping phones and
seeing there with headphones ongoing oh, I've got them.
Yeah, what do you think?
Some of the common myths aboutbeing a surveillance, being in
surveillance, are are I thinkprobably the biggest one is that
you're always on the go.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
You know your, your subject is, is always on the
move and you never stop, whereasin reality you could sit in the
car for eight hours and readthe paper, have a coffee and
maybe even close your eyes for alittle bit of time and not see
your subject all day.
But there's stuff going onbehind the scenes that you know
will assist us to understandwhat the subject's doing and
(28:40):
when things are likely to getbusy.
And you've got as asurveillance officer, you've got
to have that ability to switchon at the drop of a hat.
Yep, you know, you might havesat there for eight hours and be
expecting to to be right, we'redone for the day, let's all go
home and, you know, at sevenhours and 59 minutes the subject
comes out of the door andyou're on the go for another
(29:01):
eight, 10, 12 hours and youdon't know where you're going to
end up at the end of the day.
There's numerous times we usedto have I suppose they're called
go bags, but you'd have a bagin the boot of the car which
would have a change of clothesand you know, fresh undies and
toiletries and that kind ofthing, because numerous times we
(29:22):
would start the day and we'dend up in another part of the
country and there's no way wewere getting back to home base
before you know a reasonabletime had passed.
Very much hurry up and wait.
Definitely, definitely, butwhen it goes it's the best job
in the world yeah, it really was.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Now I know you've got some examples of that and we'll
come to that in shortly.
I just want to explore a coupleof other things breaking into
houses not breaking into houses,sorry, okay, breaking into
houses or entering houses andtapping putting in phone, taps,
you know, drilling holes inwalls, put cameras in and that
sort of stuff does that allhappen?
It did it does.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah, I wasn't involved in that.
The closest I got to that wasputting devices on vehicles to
to follow them without actuallyhaving a vehicle behind them,
which everybody knows about.
There's no secret.
But we had a different teamthat was exceptionally highly
trained that would break intohouses and leave a trace and
(30:21):
they'd be doing things withphones and recording devices
that the movies pretty wellcover these days.
So it's not a trade secretanymore.
But yeah, it does happen.
But there's a big circuit circleof security around those guys
that are doing that, because youcan't have them compromised at
any point no, this is very trueyeah, as a surveillance officer,
(30:44):
my role wasn't to to do thatelement, it was to provide the
security, you know, that part ofthat ring around the outside of
them, and I don't mean sittingoutside the front door watching.
I mean we would either take thesubject away or we would
provide a barrier between theyou know the location, the
vehicle, whatever and and theguys doing the bits, what's what
was the most difficult part ofdoing surveillance, apart from
(31:06):
the hurry up and waiting my wifealways says to me, if we hadn't
moved to australia, we probablywould have been divorced by now
because as a you know youngfamily and my wife was a police
officer in london as well yepshe couldn't rely on me for
child care at all because mondayto friday and then we were on
call every other weekend.
(31:27):
I didn't know when I was goingto start and when I was going to
finish, so I couldn't be around.
And I think that's the biggestthing is the take away from the
family.
The days where we don't do longhours it's great because you're
home, but that's few and farbetween.
So it's a single means game.
It is or you've got to have avery supportive partner, and I
(31:50):
was very lucky that my wife wassupportive.
As I say, she was a policeofficer as well, but when our
first and then second child camealong, it was a big burden on
her.
Although she went part-timeherself, she was still
travelling from where we livedinto London, which was probably
an hour each way for her atminimum.
So she was working 12 hour daysand then having to worry about
(32:13):
the kids and you know the kidsbefore she went to school or
sorry, work, and then when shegot home from work.
So yeah, it's a massive impacton your personal life and, you
know, unless you've got someonethat can support you in the way
that my wife did, it's reallynot a married stroke family
(32:35):
person's game.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And that's fair enough.
Undercover's probably verysimilar.
The Undercover of the Week isprobably very similar as well.
Yeah, what's somethingsurprising.
You've learned about yourselfdoing policing.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, I think maybe my I'm not the biggest, toughest
, roughest guy out there.
I was never a fighter.
At school I'd always ratherwalk away from something unless
I had to but also my mentalresilience going into it.
I'd never seen a dead person,I'd never dealt with copious
(33:09):
amounts of blood, I'd never hadto.
Kind of, as I say, you takesomeone to liberty and you get
the sob stories and probably alittle bit of a soft in.
You might fall for them everyso often, but I think you kind
of have to detach yourself fromthe person that you are outside
of work and compartmentalise.
(33:30):
What you see at work is whatwork is.
And then you know, know, whenyou go home you kind of keep
back to yourself, unless, as Isaid, my wife was a police
officer and she saw some prettygrotty things herself, so I was
able to offload on her as shewas able to offload on me.
But it's not something that youtalk to your mates about.
You know what you've seen at aroad accident or you know
(33:51):
someone hanging out of a roofhatch with a rope around their
neck and that kind of thing.
So, having been maybe a softieat school and growing that was,
one of my concerns was how Iwould deal with those more
difficult, darker issues thatyou encounter as a police
officer, yet still trying toremain human with those that you
(34:13):
have arrested and you want to.
I always wanted to be as fairas I could, yet still trying to
remain, you know, human withthose that you have arrested and
you know you want to.
I always wanted to be as fairas I could, yeah, and I think
I've achieved that throughnearly 26 years, or over 26
years now, but yeah, sorry sorry.
Let's say you see some thingsthrough this career that you
don't anticipate you're going tosee when you first join.
(34:33):
It's one of those things thatyou know happens but and that
you're likely to see it, butwhen you do come across it.
I remember the first time I sawa dead body, and it was an old
lady in a nursing home, so itwasn't anything gruesome it was
this little old lady lying in abed and all I could think about
was my nana, who was about thesame age and lived probably 10
minutes away, unfortunately.
(34:55):
I could go and give her a hugafter I've been to that job,
yeah, but you know, it's just.
You know, the first time yousee it.
It takes, you know, a littlebit of getting used to and you
do become a little bit, notblasé desensitized desensitized
definitely okay.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
So and this is this is what I find really
interesting how did you learn tocope with those sorts of okay?
You become desensitized over aperiod of time.
My first dead body was wayworse than a little uh little
old lady in a bed dying at homewell my second was probably
twice as bad as well.
Yeah, how do.
(35:32):
How did you learn to cope withthose sorts of things?
You talked aboutcompartmentalising.
Was there anything else you did?
Speaker 2 (35:42):
At the time I was fairly big into cycling, yeah,
and that was my release.
So when I got the opportunitycertainly before kids I would
just get on the bike and I wouldnot punish myself, but I would
push myself to the limit just tokind of not exercise the demons
but just kind of wear myselfout to the point where you know
(36:04):
I was absolutely exhausted andthat exercise really was my way,
my way of dealing with it, Ithink was, was it exercise?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
and let me know if we get too too deep here, because
you were just talking about thefact that you, you did this
until you wore yourself out andyou pushed yourself.
Yeah, and my, my initialthoughts is that you did that,
so you were tired and you canget some sleep.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, yeah, and and that probably, looking back now,
that was probably exactly it,you know I would go out and I
would not hurt myself, but Iwould push myself to the point
where I was physically exhausted, you know, and I'd get off the
bike and sometimes just collapsebecause my legs were gone.
But I found I never foundalcohol was a great help.
(36:49):
No, I wasn't a big drinker, andstill not a big drinker.
I enjoy a drink but you know,it wasn't something that I
turned to because I'd seen adead body.
I dealt with a nasty situationand, as I say, the exercise was
the one thing that I used tojust kind of get out and just
get away from everything.
It was me and the bike and thefresh air and it gave me
(37:11):
thinking time as well.
You know, I'd often find myselfthinking back to either events
of the day or, you know,previous weeks, even years gone
by, and it was a good way ofkind of decompressing as well, I
think, because you could talkto yourself while you're riding
the bike.
You could work things throughon your brain.
I probably look like some kindof weirdo riding, riding along
before the days of you know,bluetooth stuff.
(37:33):
So yeah, it was just a good wayof getting out and resolving
the situation in my head beforeit then became an issue, you
know, at home or at work or withfriends.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Now this question is probably more around being in
uniform and everyday interactionwith people, but you know,
working what you've done, youwould have had to deal with
people in different levels, indifferent ways as well.
Do you think that any of that,any of the things you've
experienced, has had an impacton how you've dealt with people?
Speaker 2 (38:05):
I'd like to say no yeah because, as I said earlier,
I've always, when I've alwaysput, or when I've put, the
uniform on, I've always wantedto treat everybody with the
respect that they deserve andI'm you know I expect that
respect back.
You don't always get it, but Ihaven't let situations that I've
(38:29):
dealt with previously kind ofcloud my judgment into how I
treat somebody else.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
What if you don't get there?
And you just you've said youknow you expect respect back.
If you're not getting that,what?
What buttons does that push?
And we can hardly talk aboutthis if you don't want.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yeah, no, no, it's fine, it pushes the wrong ones
for sure you know, because youyou're asking people to do
things, they're not doing it orthey're giving you a gob full of
abuse.
So I found at the beginning ofCOVID it's a fairly good example
, I think.
Yeah, my tolerance levelbecause I was in an office, I
was working at firearmslicensing yeah, beginning of
(39:19):
COVID, we got turfed out of theoffice because they deemed it
not to be an essential serviceat the time was back in uniform,
went to man what we calledregional roadblocks, so people
weren't allowed to move outsidetheir region in wa and if you
wanted to, you had to getbasically a passport, an
authority to go.
And it ended up that the oic ofthe station, I, was asked us if
we'd mind doing some tasking sothe guys that were tasking
could have a break and go to theroadblocks, because it was a
fairly easy gig sitting on yourbackside for 10 hours checking
everyone was coming through withthe right authority.
(39:42):
And we went to a domestic wherethe guy had gone wandering off
with his kid in a pair of boxes,I believe it was, and she came
out of the side door and justgave us a mouthful of abuse
before we'd even said hello toher and I just lost it and I
just went back off her and therewas a few F's and a few Jeff's
(40:02):
thrown in there yepand she looked at me, called me
an old C, told me that I wasn'tallowed in the house, which I
was quite happy about.
My younger colleague wasallowed in and managed to
resolve the situation.
But it was just my tolerancelevel for people's own issues
that aren't police issues.
You know, everybody has anargument and I get.
(40:25):
Domestic violence is a massiveissue across the world, really
not just Australia.
You know we're not alone inthat problem, but it was, you
know, just it was a stupidargument and she'd actually
thrown a thong at him which hadgone through a front window
which she was then trying toclaim he'd thrown at her, and
all sorts of things you knowMust have been a big thong.
Yeah, it was one of those wreaththings, I think.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Oh, yeah, fairly weighty.
And it I just my tolerance levelhad gone okay.
So we've run out of time forpart one of the conversation
with Greg Kingston and we'llleave this episode here.
Join us next week for part twoof my conversation with Greg
Kingston and we talk about howpolicing has affected him and
(41:10):
what he's going to do next.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode we'll againexplore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
(41:31):
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
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