July 29, 2024 • 38 mins
What does it take to transition from the adventurous life of a rock lobster diver to the demanding world of law enforcement in remote Australia? Join me, Jason Somerville, on today's episode of Behind the Thin Blue Line as I sit down with Ben Schultz, co-host of the Two Ordinary Cops podcast. Ben shares the intriguing story of how family ties and a recommendation from his uncle led him to join the Northern Territory Police in 2007, swapping diving gear for a badge. From meeting his podcast partner Damien Barb during training to forging a career grounded in camaraderie and mutual support, Ben's journey is a testament to the power of connections in policing.
Ever wondered about the unique challenges faced by officers policing in remote Aboriginal communities? Ben recounts his early days in the force, navigating the non-stop workload and learning from seasoned officers. We explore his experiences in places like Lajamanu and Bamaga, where cultural dynamics and the necessity of building respectful relationships with First Nations communities are paramount. His vivid anecdotes paint a picture of the intense and rewarding nature of serving in such isolated environments, where the practical realities include carrying firearms and dealing with disorganized records.
The complexities of a police career don't stop there. Ben opens up about his rapid progression from constable to acting sergeant, his involvement in specialized units including the Family and Domestic Violence Unit, and significant investigations that marked his early career. We also touch on the personal side of policing—the impact of mandatory relocation policies, the shift in his wife's career to policing, and the emotional weight of her battle with cancer. This heartfelt conversation offers a raw and honest look at the multifaceted life of a police officer, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in the human stories behind the badge.
Two Ordinary Cops Podcast can be found here - https://twoordinarycops.com/
Please be sure to Subscribe to and Follow the Podcast so you never miss an Episode and if you like what you are hearing then please "Like" the episode and podcast on your favourite podcast app.
If you would like to be involved in a "Whisper In The Shadows" Podcast through talking about your experiences as an current or former Police/Law Enforcement Officer or tell your stories then I'd love to hear from you.
I can be contacted on my socials below -
Email - whisperintheshadowspodcast@gmail.com
Instagram - @whisperintheshadowspodcast
Facebook - Whisper in the Shadows Podcast Page
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:48):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:10):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome back to Behind the ThinBlue Line a Whisper in the
Shadows podcast, where I explorethe human side of policing and
(01:32):
law enforcement.
I hope you're enjoying ourconversations with former and
current police officers as Idelve into the complexity of
policing and how it affects thehuman side of police.
As a person, I'm JasonSomerville and I was a
Queensland police officer fornearly 14 years, as well as
working undercover for over twoof them.
Hopefully you've been listeningto my stories of my time
(01:52):
undercover through my alter ego,michael Bates.
Well, I've decided it's time weheard from other police and let
them tell their stories.
Today I'm chatting with BenSchultz, who is one half of the
fantastic podcast Two OrdinaryCops.
Good afternoon, ben.
How are you today?
Ordinary or very ordinary?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Well, mate, we always like to say we're very ordinary
and that's the way we wanted toput it forward.
We're nothing special, but wecan talk some.
So yeah, mate, but otherwiseI'm going well.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
That's good Look.
Thanks for agreeing to.
Thank you for agreeing to jointhe podcast and for agreeing to
have a chat about your policingexperience, and I also have to
say thank you for having me onyour podcast as a guest last
week.
It was a thoroughly enjoyableexperience and, for anyone who
wants to catch that, the TwoOrdinary C cops podcast details
will be below um and there willbe a link to that particular
(02:49):
podcast episode as well.
So let's start with give us abrief overview of what you're
currently doing and then justactually let's let's go back,
give me a brief overview of yourtime in the police, where it
was that sort of thing, and thentalk about what you're doing
(03:09):
now.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
All right, mate.
Well, mate, I started off inthe police in 2007.
Basically, I had been acrayfish.
That means you're a young'un.
Yeah, yeah, mate, exactly Well,I was just turning 30 at the
time, so anybody can actuallyfigure out my age.
Then, um, mate, I I joined, I'dfinished cray fishing, I was a
(03:30):
rock lobster diver up in torresstraits and basically I
basically finished up in thatjob and then I decided that I
need to go to do somethingdifferent.
It got to that stage of my lifewhere I either invest a lot more
money or pull out and go and dosomething different.
And anyway, I was kind ofwondering what I was going to do
and my dad said to me becausemy, basically, my brother, my
(03:51):
dad's brother, it was a cop inQueensland from 74 till about
2017, I think, and also my mum'sbrother was also a police
officer and he started back in1956, I believe.
No, no, it might have been1960s.
Uh, yeah, and he was a cop backthen.
So, and anyway, so I wasrunning our family, obviously.
(04:11):
So you had no choice.
Well, basically, yeah, and I'vealways wanted to be a cop, I've
always idolized my uncle andall that sort of things.
I, uh, my dad said well, whydon't you join the police?
I thought, well, geez, that's agood idea.
And how I got to the NorthernTerritory because I'm Queensland
born and bred was my uncle, whowas in the police at that time.
He said to me he said I thinkback then there was some
(04:32):
requirements in the Queenslandpolice.
You needed a degree orsomething like that.
I'm not entirely sure, but hesaid there was basically some
requirements.
And he said my advice is go tothe Northern Territory.
He said the Northern Territorypolice will fast track you into
policing like you won't believe.
And he said we will.
Like the Queensland police willaccept you in three years if
(04:52):
you ever want to come back.
He said they love other NorthernTerritory police because they
reckon that doing one year upthere is like doing three years
in any other jurisdiction.
And I can tell you well, look,I can't experience other police
forces, but I can tell you whatthe Northern Territory you're
thrown into the deep end.
Very, very quickly on or earlyon I should say yeah, and then
(05:15):
so I started in the college andthat's where I met the other
half of the Very Ordinary CopsDamo or Damien Barb and we
joined in the same recruit squadand then we.
So we did our training there.
We got a reputation of likingthe amber liquid and going up to
the police club and then weboth got stationed in Catherine.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
That would have been your recipe for disaster.
Were they warned before youturned up?
Well, not really.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
It was just one of those things and one of the
funny stories, like Damo and Itell early on, was when we first
our first day in the collegeand we're sitting there and the
sergeant comes in.
They said yeah, they're showingus around the college and all
the bits and pieces.
And they said in the PeterMcCauley center there is a
police club.
They said, but we advise younot to go there, it's not a good
look for recruits.
Anyway, the first Friday thatcame around, damo and I we
(06:02):
thought, well, let's go up andhave a look at this police club.
And that was a great night.
We actually met some quite highranking officers.
I'll mention Mr Bob Rennie.
He's been on our show and hewas actually behind the bar
serving and he was asuperintendent of traffic at the
time.
So and he really he was, he wasdefinitely a big, he was like a
(06:25):
father figure and you know,just taught us about what the
police club was actually aboutnot drinking and getting blind
drunk and all that sort of thing, but more of a camaraderie
thing.
And you come in there and youget to talk to people and pass
information and talk about someof the some of the crap that
you'll deal with in the police.
So that was.
That was a big part.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
How far away was the police club from the academy it?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
was in the same.
So we had like the PeterMcCauley Center or the training
colleges.
It's quite a massive area.
It's got like a pool andtraining classrooms and all that
sort of thing.
And the Peter McCauley Centerwas originally the HQ of the
police in the northern territoryand later on it was joined in
with the police college, if youknow what I mean.
So it was from our where wewere staying in the barracks.
(07:12):
It was probably 200, 300 meterwalk yeah, so arrest people.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
it's interesting because when I went through the
academy, uh, we didn't have apolice club at the academy, but
there was a golf club next doorand every couple of months
there'd be a new hole in thefence to get through to go to
the police club, and it got tothe point where they ended up
building a police club on theacademy grounds just near the
(07:39):
rec hall.
So people could near the foodhall rather, so people could go
there and the academy could makemoney.
So people could near the foodhall rather, so people could go
there and the Academy could makemoney out of the fact that
there were a few drinkersamongst the recruits as they
came through.
So you went to Catherine, thatwas your first post.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, probably it was October, I think, or September
sorry, 2007 when we gotstationed down there.
Look, catherine is a very, verybusy station and I know there
are some very busy stationsaround, but you're flying by the
seat of your pants, you know wewere doing.
What made it busy?
Well, if you look at it,probably alcohol is a big
(08:18):
problem.
In the Northern Territory alone, alcohol is a massive problem.
You know, you'll probably get alot of people drinking.
There's a lot of domestics, uhoh, the aggravated assaults
murders you, you, basically, Ithink katherine's about 10 000
people and I think at one stagewe had about 115 cops.
(08:40):
So and we were flat out, and wewere flat out running, working
24 hours a day.
Sometimes you go into jobs at,you know, three or four in the
morning that were three or fourhours old, because you just got
job after job after job afterjob.
So it was, it was a biglearning curve.
I was lucky.
I had a good senior officer.
(09:00):
He was 10 years in the job andhe took me for the first three
months on the road.
I can tell you what, when I lookback at my career, I was so
lucky to have that, just thatguidance, you know and teach me
how to do stuff.
But yeah, catherine, I mean toput it in perspective for people
.
If you look at my career, Iwent out bush, I think three
(09:21):
months.
So I was in Catherine for threemonths and then got sent out to
Largemarnu for two weeks where,technically speaking, I was the
OIC of the station, which isofficer in charge, because the
other guy was a two-man station.
The other guy went on holidaysto sergeant, so I was left there
by myself in Largemarnu, in themiddle of the Tanami Desert.
I literally slept with my Glockunder my pillow.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, I literally slept with my Glock under my
pillow.
Yeah, I can relate to thatbeing sent to Bamaga just after
or it would have been.
No, it was just after my 12months for up on wind.
I got sent to Bamaga and thesergeant who was affectionately
known as Papa Smurf, this bigred beard, he sort of got a
little bit stressy and it waslike okay, here I am at this
community right at the top ofqueensland, going what's going
(10:08):
on?
I was just going to say so.
115 coppers, yep, you, you, you.
You go there for your training.
You're sent to a small station.
Now, for those of, for thosepeople listening who might not
know where that station is, myassumption is that it's going to
be a First Nations community.
(10:29):
Would that be Rajamouna?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, yep, so that's where I went.
So, catherine, you need torelieve a massive area, so a
massive a lot of stations, soLargemarnoo was one.
If you look at Largemarnoo,look, you can almost go if you
go to the dead centre ofAustralia.
That's where Largemarnoo is, soeverybody could relate.
If anybody's looked at the mapto where Yuinamoo is, which is,
(10:53):
of course, where Ounjayi Walkerwas shot in 2019, I think, by
the Northern Territory Police,that was all over the news and
still is today.
So if you look at Yuendumu,that's the sister or brother
community of Lajamanu they'rethe same people.
They're Walpurgis.
So they're the Walpurgis,aboriginal people in there.
So, yeah, predominantly outthere, you're dealing with
(11:14):
Aboriginal people who are Wobbritribe and it's literally in the
Tanami Desert.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Okay, having worked at Bedouri and Birdsville and
places like that as well, got afair understanding of how
isolating that can be Firstimpressions when you got there.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Well, look, I'd lived in Torres Strait, you know, for
10 years, because that's whereI was diving for rock lobster
and I'd seen bamago once ortwice too, and the top end, you
know.
So look, definitely surprising.
It's a whole new world outthere.
One of the thing I found, likethe walkreys are very, very big
people.
Um, you know, they're thewarrior tribe of the aboriginals
, but what I found to me, thatthey, they're very genuine.
(11:59):
So I think damo, in one of ourpodcasts, talks about how the
first time he went to 300 peoplefighting and these people have
star pickets, you know, axes andall that, and basically danny
shroyas sergeant just tells himlike they rock up and there's
people fighting trying to killeach other.
There's two of them and there's300 of them.
Anyway, danny goes well, youjust go down that side, you take
(12:21):
that side, I'll take this side,and he said just get the
weapons off them.
And damo thought it was thebiggest ditch up ever.
But the fact is, those peoplethey're fighting amongst
themselves.
They're, you know, they'reactually.
They don't.
They don't have any grievanceagainst the police.
If the police come in there andstart crying them around and
all that, then they will attackyou.
But to go up and actually talkto them and go?
(12:41):
No, you can't have that.
You know it was a respect thingand if you built that in those
communities, you policed, youknow, far more efficiently and
had less trouble.
So, yeah, did you carry a gunwhen you were there the only
times you did?
Yeah, so we always had a gun onour hip, except, like, probably
(13:02):
, when In large amount of yes,not because I thought it was any
further, any more dangerous.
I suppose the only time Ididn't and it was policy that we
did wear it so they can try andget me now, which they can't
because I'm out of the policewas when I was, when I was up at
(13:22):
croaker island, which is, uh,mingelang community.
That was one that was opened upunder the intervention, um of
you know, 2007.
I went out there.
So, to put in perspective, Iwas two years, just two years,
uh, or two and a half years inthe job and I went out there for
six months as a sergeant, um,and running that station for six
months.
So what was your actual rank?
I was basically acting sergeantor remote sergeant they called
(13:45):
it back then.
So I was actually sitting atthat.
You were still a constable.
Yep, okay, yep, yep.
So I hadn't reached 21st classyet.
So I was, I was off probationand and basically I got that job
.
I was sitting at the police clubin Catherine and the OIC.
Uh, george Wockerson came overand said do you like the sun,
surf and and and and ocean?
(14:07):
And I said, well, yeah, and hegoes.
Do you want to go to CrokeIsland for six months?
And sergeant out there?
And I thought, well, I said, oh, I have to ask my wife.
But, um, yeah, it sounds like agood deal.
So my, of course, my wages wentup significantly and I got flown
out to a remote station.
Yeah, and I did your wife go.
No, look, yeah, oh, look, Iwill tell this story because I
(14:28):
can probably tell it now.
Okay, because she's not even inthe job she.
She joined the police later onas well.
But so what I did?
I was very being out there, yougot very good friends with
police air wing because underthe intervention I think we had
one plane before theintervention, after that we had
four, so they were flying copsin and out of stations, like the
afp cops are helping out, andall that sort of stuff, and I
(14:51):
got very good friends withmurray cufferson who was who was
the basically ran ran PoliceAir Wing and so if they were
flying out my way and my wifehad some, you know, a couple of
weeks off, I'd get her picked upon Police Air Wing and she'd go
out there and see me for acouple of days.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And then I'd get a fly off.
I can see where that was going.
A mile away there was, I think.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
So how long was she in the police?
He joined in 2000.
No, sorry, go on.
So, yeah, three years from me.
Yeah, I know, I was just goingto say damo, damo, actually, um
called it at the time.
He said he used to call itschultz airlines because if you
wanted, if you wanted to gettreatment on, please air when
you call schultz.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So did your wife become a police officer because
of you, or?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
do you meet as a teacher originally.
So we went up there togetherand she was teaching um, yeah, I
won't really speak for her, butshe, she kind of got a bit, I
suppose, not depressed, but um,a bit it didn't really like the
education department, the way itwas run and all that.
She didn't feel like they weresupporting people further down,
um, and she was working longhours and she decided she was
(16:01):
going to do a career change andshe asked me and she said would
you mind if I joined the police?
I said no, not at all, like youknow.
Yeah, join up.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, so she did in 2010 and, um, yeah, she was a
very, very good officer I wasgoing to say, most coppers would
say what were you having secondthoughts and you were wanting
to get a quick divorce orsomething?
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Well, it did eventuate that way in the end.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
We might come back to that.
So you've done a couple ofremote communities.
What happens next?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Well, mate, so I did that and then so I'd went, when
I went to croker island.
When I came back, I got theoption to go in the family and
domestic violence unit.
So I mean, you're looking, thisis three years from when I
started the college then and, uh, and I got to be a plainclothes
constable working in adetective's office, um, which
was, which was, yeah, exactly.
(16:55):
I know you're just sittingthere and go, wow, how could you
get that opportunity so early?
But that's the way theterritory ran it was.
You know it got opportunitiesand I loved that was a first
step into working, you know, inthose investigative roles, and I
really enjoyed it.
So I did that for probablyabout six to eight months,
(17:17):
really enjoyed it.
So I did that for probably aboutsix to eight months and then
during that time my wife at thetime was also joining the police
, so she was up in Darwin doingthe training and when she came
out I actually asked to be putback on the road so I could
actually spend more time withher, and they actually put us on
the same shift.
We never worked in the same car, but we're actually on the same
shift, which was good.
Yeah, like I enjoyed that andbecause of my experience at the
(17:40):
time, they then asked me to be atraining officer because they
were getting those problems atthat stage in the force that
they were just recruiting somany people and they didn't have
good senior partners to spreadacross.
So basically I was fairlyexperienced and I'd run stations
, I'd done the commander's tackteam.
I worked into in for a bit.
Um, I've been out in bushstations and I was also worked
(18:02):
as a plainclothes connie in moreserious roles and during that
first stint that I did, we um weactually took care of a murder
investigation.
Um, you know, we we werebasically running around, uh,
doing a murder investigation,and so it really opened your
eyes to how so how many yearsexperience did?
Oh sorry, yeah, sorry, how manyyears experience when I went in
(18:23):
there.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, well, when you went back on the road, how many
years had spent.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
So that was probably more like October in 2010.
So three years since I've beenon the road, so three and a half
years all up since I joined thecollege and and you'd had
remote experience actingsergeant officer.
Oic work playing clothes yeah,worked in the commander's back
(18:48):
team.
I did that for six monthslooking after unlawful entries
and juvenile crime yeah, it'slike the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You I was gonna say you probably you probably get a
gig now, uh, in Townsville or inBrisbane running the
government's crime justice team,juvenile justice programs,
wouldn't you?
Because God knows, they needsomeone to do it.
Just as a bit of a buy here,not a segue, more a thing of
(19:17):
that, if anyone's watching.
And for you also, ben,sometimes having some internet
issues and I might talk over thetop of or something like that,
there's just internet, becausethat's just the way it is living
in the country.
Yes, so, um, all right, so you,you're working on the road.
What was that?
Was that at katherine?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
yes.
So when I went back on backonto the road working with my
ex-wife now but yeah, that wasin katherine, that was just
general duties and I so one ofher actually squaddies uh, he
was an absolutely brilliant guyand he was having trouble.
He had some really bad seniorpartners uh leading into it and
and he was really stressed outand almost ready to leave the
(19:58):
job and they'd only been in fora couple of months.
Uh, he was really stressed outand so the shift sergeant came
to me and he said he said look,he said, can I give you this guy
?
He's really stressed out, buthe's really brilliant.
He's really like, he's good atwhat he does.
He's just had some reallyterrible senior officers trying
to guide him through the policeand I had him.
(20:18):
I looked after him for aboutthree months and I reckon within
about two weeks he was lovingthe job.
It was just the fact that, as meas a senior partner, all I said
.
I said, all right, you've got ashitload of jobs, you've got a
lot of investigations, and Isaid what I'm going to do is I
will take all the jobs from hereon in until you get all yours
cleared up.
So every time we go on shift,every job comes to me.
(20:41):
But also back then we alsoworked in the watch house.
So I also asked the sergeant ifwe could have two watch house
shifts every roster, so that wayonce a week basically.
And and he said yep, not aproblem, because I said the
watch house is great.
You get your quiet times wherewe can really go through your
paperwork and we can tell youhow to get through it and do the
jobs properly so they'll getfinalized and do investigations
(21:02):
properly and get them up to dateand get successful prosecutions
if it went down that path.
So I really enjoyed doing that.
It's a lot of work being asenior partner and guiding
teaching police.
I never realized how much itactually took out of my policing
until, like, I did that forabout a year and I'd done four
(21:22):
police in that time.
So three months of stint andyeah, and it was funny because
then they said, oh, we'll justmatch you up.
These are, you know, this is alady that's come down from
darwin.
She'd been policing up thereand darwin doesn't have the
experience that katherine has.
So they said can you justintroduce you into katherine?
And because you have to, likeyou know, up there they had a
coroner's conning down inkatherine.
You did the paperwork yourself,like that sort of stuff.
(21:44):
So and she I'll actually saythis oh okay, she had four dead
bodies on the first four shiftson the road in catherine no, no
one would want to work with iton that so, um, yeah, so, but so
it was probably handy because II showed her how, what the
paperwork you had to fill outand, um, yeah, doing doing a
(22:04):
coronial file and all that sortof thing which we were.
I mean, obviously we hadexperience, we had to do them
all the time ourselves.
Like I think there was a policyin the Northern Territory
Police that anybody on probationcouldn't actually be in charge
of a coronial file, but I thinkI did two or three while I was
on probation.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It's just, yeah, yeah it's.
It's just, yeah, it'sabsolutely nuts like that.
Yeah, well, if, if you were thejunior connie and there was a
dead body, you got it.
It was like you know, yeah,welcome, welcome, welcome to the
same type type deal.
I think I think the hardest one, not the hardest one.
I remember the first one.
Uh, the guy was in a caravan insummer in the middle of Cairns
for seven days.
(22:46):
So that's one thing you neverforget.
I was in Baduri and Baduri isabout 200 kilometers, 250
kilometers north of Birdsvillein the straight line and about
four or 500 kilometers south ofMount Isa in a straight line.
So it's in the middle ofabsolutely nowhere.
(23:08):
We were flooded in so youcouldn't get in and out of town.
Yeah, I know that feeling.
Plane lands, yeah, yeah, planelands, old mate, who's a
passenger on the plane?
Yeah, he's dead.
So that has its own set ofproblems that you have to deal
with.
In regards to okay, well, we'vegot to turn the morgue on, turn
(23:29):
the fridge on and you've got to, you've got to.
You know how do you get him out?
Because you can't drive, no onecan get in.
You're gonna have to fly them.
There's a whole bunch of thingsaround that.
So they're things you just hadto learn to do and understand
what to do, because there wasn'tanyone else that could do it
for you yeah, yeah, yeah, that'sexactly right and yeah, I mean
(23:49):
that that's, catherine, for youthat's definitely bush policing.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
You know, on a whole, you, you had no resources out
there.
You were the resource, so youso you had to learn how to do it
.
I um, you know, I chipped lateryears and I actually said to
the commander because I hadtrouble sending people out of
bush people like Damo and I, weloved going bush, we loved the
autonomy of it.
It was busy at times but weloved it.
And I said to the commander Isaid well.
(24:13):
I said why don't you make arequirement that people they can
relieve out there but they haveto do at least six months
before they go for Santa Conning, you know, at a bush station
and he goes oh, you can't dothat.
I said well, why not?
You say part of the thing iswhen you join the police is, are
you willing to go everywhere?
And everybody says yes, so andjust give them the option.
(24:34):
You know, and you know what wasfunny off later on.
So when I left the police theythen brought in.
It was mandatory thecommissioner would send you out
bush before you got a promotion.
So they were sending, they weremaking people go out, bush,
instead of asking and makingthem a requirement to to like go
for promotion.
He was then sending people andI said, well, no, that's not
going to work either, becausepeople need to work around their
(24:56):
family and all that sort ofthing.
Give them the option and theyhave to do it if they want to.
You know, get promoted.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah, it's, it's one of those things you, you came in
at a time where, where theystarted bringing in, you know,
ribbons for last place andthings like that, it was all
about making sure, making sure,making sure everyone was happy
and can change, and uh, allthose sorts of things, uh that's
exactly right anyway.
(25:22):
So what?
What after?
What happened after that?
Where did you, where did youwork?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
so when I'm done.
Basically what happened was ohlook, I won't go into too much,
this is more my wife's story,but she, she got a cancer and so
we had some time off, uh, whileshe dealt with that.
And then when we came back wehad some problems in the police
department.
Just, they basically wanted tokick her out of the police
because of the damage theradiation had done and all that
sort of thing.
But yes, basically we had a bitof a fight with the police
(25:50):
department, which we won, andshe got fully confirmed, which
was right.
She was absolutely she was avery, very good officer and she
still she was she's finished now, but she was, she was a very,
very good police officer um, andbasically then we separated, or
basically broke up goingthrough all that trauma, and
(26:10):
then I went, I decided well,funnily enough, I'll go back and
tell a bit of a story here.
So one of the other stations Irelieved in early on was
Ramangini police station, whichis in the middle of Arnhem Land,
if you, if you know NorthernTerritory, it's in the Gulf.
It's about 26 kilometres, Ithink, from Ramagini to the
barge landing and, if you look,search for a place called
(26:31):
Millingimby, an island just offthe coast, that Ramagini,
straight inland from there,about 26 kilometres, I got the.
Well, basically, what happenedwas they had there was under the
intervention, and they asked meI, they asked me the sergeant
out there was going on leave fortwo or four weeks, I think, and
they asked me this is in 2010,I think it was.
(26:52):
And, um, they asked me.
They said can you go out thereand look after the station for
you know, for while he's onleave?
And I said yeah, yeah, I can dothat.
So I went out there and I metand I'll mention his name there
Muhammad Abaka Ali is his name.
He's a.
He's a great guy.
He's in the Western AustralianPolice now, so I won't tell too
(27:12):
many stories, but he's still inthe police.
He was in the Northern Territory.
Oh, I love the bloke he was.
He was basically fresh out ofthe college well, fairly fresh
out of the college as well andhe was the second second man out
there and I worked with him fora couple of weeks and had a
great time.
It was just fantastic.
And I said at that stage theywere actually building a $12
(27:33):
million police station there,because it was going to become a
permanent station, not just athemis station.
Under the intervention that wasstarting to happen.
The plans were getting put inplace when I was out there in
2010 and, funnily enough, I saidto him at the time I said if I
ever break up with my wife, Iwill put him for this station as
a sergeant when it gets built.
(27:54):
And lo and behold, two yearslater, the sergeant position the
first actually substantialsergeant of Ramangini Police
Station came up for grabs and Iwas out there relieving at the
time and relieving Manning Greenand a couple of other stations
around it, just helping out, andI put in for the job and I got
it.
So I was the first one to takeover a $12 million police
(28:18):
station.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Was it a better building than the one you'd been
at?
Oh the.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
FEMA stations, mate, they were just containers.
You're living in shippingcontainers, that's it Fair
enough.
Yeah, so a bit more flash,definitely.
But I worked for close to threeyears out there and look, a lot
of people said to me at thetime.
They said you know, you'recrazy.
You know, taking over a newstation.
Usually when you take over astation, the sergeant before you
(28:45):
has already got things rollingand all that sort of thing.
But I had to create everything.
Yeah, ammunition register, likethey had it, but it was because
police had been coming andgoing and chopper, yeah, there'd
been no constant police, it wasall over the shop.
I remember the first stationinspection before I moved into
the new police station.
Like when I got out there Iactually got my ass dragged over
(29:05):
the coals because it was insuch a shit state.
But it takes so long to getthat stuff under control and I'd
been out there for about twoweeks at that stage Hardly fair
work.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Don't think it was quite, or flat, but anyway,
typical police.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
But you know I got it , but it was a lot of work, it
was a lot of work.
You know I got it, but it was alot of work, it was a lot of
work.
I yeah, I can't Basically look,put in perspective, my overtime
bill a year, like so what thepolice used to pay me in
overtime was around $50,000.
So you can imagine how much,yeah, how much work I did out
there and, look, I love thecommunity I did, but I basically
(29:44):
got a bit burnt out.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
You know, doing that for three years how many, how
many coppers were at thatstation?
Well, originally.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
When I first went out there, when it was under the
intervention or themis, therewas a lot of the time it was
just me and one other person.
If I was lucky, even my mum anddad had just retired at the
time.
I remember my senior sergeantsitting there going maybe we
should just give them uniforms.
So it looks like we've got morepolice out there I'm surprised
they didn't go the cutout mode.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
You know like they used the comments, the
shoplifter one.
I don't know whether you'veever used to see the um, the
police, the cutout police forlife.
So I've won in the shop.
Say if you get caught yeah,yeah I think that was considered
as well.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
But basically, once it became a full-time station,
uh, or permanent police station,there was me as a sergeant and
then I had two constables andone aboriginal community police
officer.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So there was a role for those, for those uh, three
other officers, okay, and that'sa fairly big station then yeah,
it was a full full full, fullman station, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah, okay, so you're going.
Sorry, I mean it was, it was abusy station, but it was.
It kind of had it high and lows, like you know.
But you know what police is,like Full moon, it goes
absolutely nuts and then youwon't have anything for two
weeks.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, I do know that.
All right.
So you're three years there,you burn out.
What happens then?
Well, mate.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
So then Damo, the other ordinary cop he was at
Borraloola and he sent him, well, first off.
Damo, the other ordinary cop,he was at Boralula and he sent
him, well, first off.
I'll sit there.
I applied for a cross-borderteam which was down Nala Springs
and there was basically me andone other person going for the
job.
We were the top people for thejob.
She just beat me, nudged aheadof me and I kind of got a bit of
(31:27):
the shits with that.
There was some circumstancesaround why that happened.
And and I kind of got a bit ofthe shits with that, there was
some circumstances around whythat happened and I wasn't
overly impressed because Ibasically, I mean, I got Ramon
Guinea.
I wasn't even a substantivesergeant when I went for the job
in Ramon Guinea, but I beat asergeant for the job, basically
because of my experience and youknow.
And then I looked at when Iwent for the cross-border team
and basically everybody, even upto the superintendent in the
(31:50):
cross-border team who was incharge of it, wanted me, um, and
yeah, and I missed out.
So I was kind of a bit cheesedoff about that.
And then Damo said well, whydon't you come to Borraloola?
I'm a Borraloola, you know wecan get together, have a whole
lot of fun.
And so I thought, well, allright, I'll go to Borraloola.
And I thought, well, I wasalready thinking about leaving
the police at that stage, and Iwas nine years in at that stage
(32:13):
and I thought, well, I know thepolicing, I was banging my head
against a brick wall, beingsergeant of a police station.
I couldn't get the stuff that Ineeded done.
I had this misconception that Icould actually fix it if I got
into politics and and anyway, soI then.
So I applied for Borralalulaand got it.
And then I was.
I only got to spend about amonth there with damo.
(32:35):
Amo got sent down to alicespring because they needed
coppers down there.
So which was probably a goodthing in a way, because
otherwise the drinkingconsumption would have gone up
significantly if him and I'dbeen there I was gonna ask if
there was a police club anywherenearby, see, ramming gu.
Guinea was a dry community soyou couldn't drink out there.
I mean, if you look at me backthen I was probably just look, I
(32:58):
was 80 kilos and I was solidmuscle because all I did was eat
well and train.
That's all I did and dopolicing.
So I was extremely fit.
I was doing, you know, goSydney for the, for the city, to
surf runs, I was doing halfmarathons and all that sort of
thing like, yeah, I was reallysuper fit because you just
couldn't drink out there.
(33:19):
So um got to concentrate on myfitness and then I went to
Borraloola and that changed.
Um, I went to Borraloola and Ican tell you Borraloola is
probably one of the mostvolatile stations I ever worked
in.
I think at that stage in mycareer I had about one complaint
a year In that one year inBorough of Lula, I got 10.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
So yeah, why is it so volatile and sort of explain.
Can you explain a little bitwhat you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, so it's a very.
It can really go crazy.
You've got a lot of, I suppose,a lot of youth crime.
The problem is you've got threedifferent camps Mara Garawa,
and there's a new sub, butthere's another one I can't
think of it off the top of myhead and they're all different
kind of tribes as well to acertain extent.
So that causes a bit ofconflict, I mean, yeah, and then
(34:13):
you've got robinson river,which is just down the road.
You've got dumajee, which isjust over the border, you know,
if you go down through the gulf.
Um, so you used to get peoplefrom dumajee coming in good old
doom and, yeah, anybody that'sread the stalk the tall man.
Is it the tall man the one thatkilled?
Oh, the one that basicallycameron dumajee died on palm
(34:33):
island back in the?
Speaker 1 (34:36):
yeah it was?
I actually think it was the2000, was it?
Yeah, yeah, so that was pretty,yeah, I just I just left, I
think so 2003, 2004.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
that's right.
And of course, I think he wasoriginally from dumadji itself.
I'm not entirely sure, butthere was definitely some
connection with the guy thatdied with Dumadji, so yeah, so
there was a bit of I was goingto say, funnily enough the
copper that was involved andthat actually spent time at
(35:12):
Dumadji.
Oh he, yeah, all right yeah, he, he did.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
He did a lot of country policing.
I worked with him both incairns and mount isaac and he
got stomped on by a bull, almostdied, trying to raise funds for
the community.
That's.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
That's another story yeah, I mean, I read the book.
It was funny because it was abook written by what do you call
it, I don't know.
It wasn't an investigativejournalist, it was, I don't know
, it was a journalist of somesort.
Anyway, and it was funnybecause I read it when I was out
at Croker Island.
I was sitting there going, geez, she's really taking a
one-sided point of view in this.
She obviously didn't like thepolice very much, and but when I
(35:52):
was reading it, I'm going, ah,jesus, it's definitely swayed
like there's no, I mean, that'salways a problem with police,
though, isn't it like theypolice are very quiet and tight
when it comes to that sort ofstuff?
Because, yeah, they, they justrather let it kind of wash over.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
I remember being on a flight back from melbourne or
sydney with him and leave it.
Yeah, um, last year or the yearbefore, no, it was last year.
We were having a discussion andtalking about how they're
trying to get police to join andeveryone's leaving.
I work in recruitment now and Isaid the biggest problem with
(36:26):
policing is that no one tells agood story.
The only story you ever hearabout police is when the shit
has hit the fan, and only storyyou ever hear about police is
when the shit has hit the fanand something's gone wrong and
the police get blamed.
I said the, the worst pr, eventheir pr people are bad at pr.
At pr, they can't turn anystory, they can't put anything
good out.
And I said that's, that is thebiggest issue, knowing the, the,
(36:49):
the negativity, and just it'slike, oh well, we'll, just won't
worry about it, we'll shut itdown, and I think policing as a
profession suffers from that andthat negativity has a mental
health impact on the people whoare police.
But that I will come back to.
(37:11):
Okay, unfortunately, that's allwe have time for for this
episode of Behind the Thin BlueLine.
I hope you're enjoying myconversation with Ben Schultz
and telling us his story of howhe got into the police.
Join me next Tuesday for thenext part of this episode and
the next part of this discussionwith Ben.
(37:32):
Hope you have a good day andI'll chat to you then.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode we'll againexplore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
(37:52):
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
(38:13):
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:48):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:10):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome back to Behind the ThinBlue Line a Whisper in the
Shadows podcast, where I explorethe human side of policing and
(01:32):
law enforcement.
I hope you're enjoying ourconversations with former and
current police officers as Idelve into the complexity of
policing and how it affects thehuman side of police.
As a person, I'm JasonSomerville and I was a
Queensland police officer fornearly 14 years, as well as
working undercover for over twoof them.
Hopefully you've been listeningto my stories of my time
(01:52):
undercover through my alter ego,michael Bates.
Well, I've decided it's time weheard from other police and let
them tell their stories.
Today I'm chatting with BenSchultz, who is one half of the
fantastic podcast Two OrdinaryCops.
Good afternoon, ben.
How are you today?
Ordinary or very ordinary?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Well, mate, we always like to say we're very ordinary
and that's the way we wanted toput it forward.
We're nothing special, but wecan talk some.
So yeah, mate, but otherwiseI'm going well.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
That's good Look.
Thanks for agreeing to.
Thank you for agreeing to jointhe podcast and for agreeing to
have a chat about your policingexperience, and I also have to
say thank you for having me onyour podcast as a guest last
week.
It was a thoroughly enjoyableexperience and, for anyone who
wants to catch that, the TwoOrdinary C cops podcast details
will be below um and there willbe a link to that particular
(02:49):
podcast episode as well.
So let's start with give us abrief overview of what you're
currently doing and then justactually let's let's go back,
give me a brief overview of yourtime in the police, where it
was that sort of thing, and thentalk about what you're doing
(03:09):
now.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
All right, mate.
Well, mate, I started off inthe police in 2007.
Basically, I had been acrayfish.
That means you're a young'un.
Yeah, yeah, mate, exactly Well,I was just turning 30 at the
time, so anybody can actuallyfigure out my age.
Then, um, mate, I I joined, I'dfinished cray fishing, I was a
(03:30):
rock lobster diver up in torresstraits and basically I
basically finished up in thatjob and then I decided that I
need to go to do somethingdifferent.
It got to that stage of my lifewhere I either invest a lot more
money or pull out and go and dosomething different.
And anyway, I was kind ofwondering what I was going to do
and my dad said to me becausemy, basically, my brother, my
(03:51):
dad's brother, it was a cop inQueensland from 74 till about
2017, I think, and also my mum'sbrother was also a police
officer and he started back in1956, I believe.
No, no, it might have been1960s.
Uh, yeah, and he was a cop backthen.
So, and anyway, so I wasrunning our family, obviously.
(04:11):
So you had no choice.
Well, basically, yeah, and I'vealways wanted to be a cop, I've
always idolized my uncle andall that sort of things.
I, uh, my dad said well, whydon't you join the police?
I thought, well, geez, that's agood idea.
And how I got to the NorthernTerritory because I'm Queensland
born and bred was my uncle, whowas in the police at that time.
He said to me he said I thinkback then there was some
(04:32):
requirements in the Queenslandpolice.
You needed a degree orsomething like that.
I'm not entirely sure, but hesaid there was basically some
requirements.
And he said my advice is go tothe Northern Territory.
He said the Northern Territorypolice will fast track you into
policing like you won't believe.
And he said we will.
Like the Queensland police willaccept you in three years if
(04:52):
you ever want to come back.
He said they love other NorthernTerritory police because they
reckon that doing one year upthere is like doing three years
in any other jurisdiction.
And I can tell you well, look,I can't experience other police
forces, but I can tell you whatthe Northern Territory you're
thrown into the deep end.
Very, very quickly on or earlyon I should say yeah, and then
(05:15):
so I started in the college andthat's where I met the other
half of the Very Ordinary CopsDamo or Damien Barb and we
joined in the same recruit squadand then we.
So we did our training there.
We got a reputation of likingthe amber liquid and going up to
the police club and then weboth got stationed in Catherine.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
That would have been your recipe for disaster.
Were they warned before youturned up?
Well, not really.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
It was just one of those things and one of the
funny stories, like Damo and Itell early on, was when we first
our first day in the collegeand we're sitting there and the
sergeant comes in.
They said yeah, they're showingus around the college and all
the bits and pieces.
And they said in the PeterMcCauley center there is a
police club.
They said, but we advise younot to go there, it's not a good
look for recruits.
Anyway, the first Friday thatcame around, damo and I we
(06:02):
thought, well, let's go up andhave a look at this police club.
And that was a great night.
We actually met some quite highranking officers.
I'll mention Mr Bob Rennie.
He's been on our show and hewas actually behind the bar
serving and he was asuperintendent of traffic at the
time.
So and he really he was, he wasdefinitely a big, he was like a
(06:25):
father figure and you know,just taught us about what the
police club was actually aboutnot drinking and getting blind
drunk and all that sort of thing, but more of a camaraderie
thing.
And you come in there and youget to talk to people and pass
information and talk about someof the some of the crap that
you'll deal with in the police.
So that was.
That was a big part.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
How far away was the police club from the academy it?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
was in the same.
So we had like the PeterMcCauley Center or the training
colleges.
It's quite a massive area.
It's got like a pool andtraining classrooms and all that
sort of thing.
And the Peter McCauley Centerwas originally the HQ of the
police in the northern territoryand later on it was joined in
with the police college, if youknow what I mean.
So it was from our where wewere staying in the barracks.
(07:12):
It was probably 200, 300 meterwalk yeah, so arrest people.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
it's interesting because when I went through the
academy, uh, we didn't have apolice club at the academy, but
there was a golf club next doorand every couple of months
there'd be a new hole in thefence to get through to go to
the police club, and it got tothe point where they ended up
building a police club on theacademy grounds just near the
(07:39):
rec hall.
So people could near the foodhall rather, so people could go
there and the academy could makemoney.
So people could near the foodhall rather, so people could go
there and the Academy could makemoney out of the fact that
there were a few drinkersamongst the recruits as they
came through.
So you went to Catherine, thatwas your first post.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, probably it was October, I think, or September
sorry, 2007 when we gotstationed down there.
Look, catherine is a very, verybusy station and I know there
are some very busy stationsaround, but you're flying by the
seat of your pants, you know wewere doing.
What made it busy?
Well, if you look at it,probably alcohol is a big
(08:18):
problem.
In the Northern Territory alone, alcohol is a massive problem.
You know, you'll probably get alot of people drinking.
There's a lot of domestics, uhoh, the aggravated assaults
murders you, you, basically, Ithink katherine's about 10 000
people and I think at one stagewe had about 115 cops.
(08:40):
So and we were flat out, and wewere flat out running, working
24 hours a day.
Sometimes you go into jobs at,you know, three or four in the
morning that were three or fourhours old, because you just got
job after job after job afterjob.
So it was, it was a biglearning curve.
I was lucky.
I had a good senior officer.
(09:00):
He was 10 years in the job andhe took me for the first three
months on the road.
I can tell you what, when I lookback at my career, I was so
lucky to have that, just thatguidance, you know and teach me
how to do stuff.
But yeah, catherine, I mean toput it in perspective for people
.
If you look at my career, Iwent out bush, I think three
(09:21):
months.
So I was in Catherine for threemonths and then got sent out to
Largemarnu for two weeks where,technically speaking, I was the
OIC of the station, which isofficer in charge, because the
other guy was a two-man station.
The other guy went on holidaysto sergeant, so I was left there
by myself in Largemarnu, in themiddle of the Tanami Desert.
I literally slept with my Glockunder my pillow.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, I literally slept with my Glock under my
pillow.
Yeah, I can relate to thatbeing sent to Bamaga just after
or it would have been.
No, it was just after my 12months for up on wind.
I got sent to Bamaga and thesergeant who was affectionately
known as Papa Smurf, this bigred beard, he sort of got a
little bit stressy and it waslike okay, here I am at this
community right at the top ofqueensland, going what's going
(10:08):
on?
I was just going to say so.
115 coppers, yep, you, you, you.
You go there for your training.
You're sent to a small station.
Now, for those of, for thosepeople listening who might not
know where that station is, myassumption is that it's going to
be a First Nations community.
(10:29):
Would that be Rajamouna?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, yep, so that's where I went.
So, catherine, you need torelieve a massive area, so a
massive a lot of stations, soLargemarnoo was one.
If you look at Largemarnoo,look, you can almost go if you
go to the dead centre ofAustralia.
That's where Largemarnoo is, soeverybody could relate.
If anybody's looked at the mapto where Yuinamoo is, which is,
(10:53):
of course, where Ounjayi Walkerwas shot in 2019, I think, by
the Northern Territory Police,that was all over the news and
still is today.
So if you look at Yuendumu,that's the sister or brother
community of Lajamanu they'rethe same people.
They're Walpurgis.
So they're the Walpurgis,aboriginal people in there.
So, yeah, predominantly outthere, you're dealing with
(11:14):
Aboriginal people who are Wobbritribe and it's literally in the
Tanami Desert.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Okay, having worked at Bedouri and Birdsville and
places like that as well, got afair understanding of how
isolating that can be Firstimpressions when you got there.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Well, look, I'd lived in Torres Strait, you know, for
10 years, because that's whereI was diving for rock lobster
and I'd seen bamago once ortwice too, and the top end, you
know.
So look, definitely surprising.
It's a whole new world outthere.
One of the thing I found, likethe walkreys are very, very big
people.
Um, you know, they're thewarrior tribe of the aboriginals
, but what I found to me, thatthey, they're very genuine.
(11:59):
So I think damo, in one of ourpodcasts, talks about how the
first time he went to 300 peoplefighting and these people have
star pickets, you know, axes andall that, and basically danny
shroyas sergeant just tells himlike they rock up and there's
people fighting trying to killeach other.
There's two of them and there's300 of them.
Anyway, danny goes well, youjust go down that side, you take
(12:21):
that side, I'll take this side,and he said just get the
weapons off them.
And damo thought it was thebiggest ditch up ever.
But the fact is, those peoplethey're fighting amongst
themselves.
They're, you know, they'reactually.
They don't.
They don't have any grievanceagainst the police.
If the police come in there andstart crying them around and
all that, then they will attackyou.
But to go up and actually talkto them and go?
(12:41):
No, you can't have that.
You know it was a respect thingand if you built that in those
communities, you policed, youknow, far more efficiently and
had less trouble.
So, yeah, did you carry a gunwhen you were there the only
times you did?
Yeah, so we always had a gun onour hip, except, like, probably
(13:02):
, when In large amount of yes,not because I thought it was any
further, any more dangerous.
I suppose the only time Ididn't and it was policy that we
did wear it so they can try andget me now, which they can't
because I'm out of the policewas when I was, when I was up at
(13:22):
croaker island, which is, uh,mingelang community.
That was one that was opened upunder the intervention, um of
you know, 2007.
I went out there.
So, to put in perspective, Iwas two years, just two years,
uh, or two and a half years inthe job and I went out there for
six months as a sergeant, um,and running that station for six
months.
So what was your actual rank?
I was basically acting sergeantor remote sergeant they called
(13:45):
it back then.
So I was actually sitting atthat.
You were still a constable.
Yep, okay, yep, yep.
So I hadn't reached 21st classyet.
So I was, I was off probationand and basically I got that job
.
I was sitting at the police clubin Catherine and the OIC.
Uh, george Wockerson came overand said do you like the sun,
surf and and and and ocean?
(14:07):
And I said, well, yeah, and hegoes.
Do you want to go to CrokeIsland for six months?
And sergeant out there?
And I thought, well, I said, oh, I have to ask my wife.
But, um, yeah, it sounds like agood deal.
So my, of course, my wages wentup significantly and I got flown
out to a remote station.
Yeah, and I did your wife go.
No, look, yeah, oh, look, Iwill tell this story because I
(14:28):
can probably tell it now.
Okay, because she's not even inthe job she.
She joined the police later onas well.
But so what I did?
I was very being out there, yougot very good friends with
police air wing because underthe intervention I think we had
one plane before theintervention, after that we had
four, so they were flying copsin and out of stations, like the
afp cops are helping out, andall that sort of stuff, and I
(14:51):
got very good friends withmurray cufferson who was who was
the basically ran ran PoliceAir Wing and so if they were
flying out my way and my wifehad some, you know, a couple of
weeks off, I'd get her picked upon Police Air Wing and she'd go
out there and see me for acouple of days.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And then I'd get a fly off.
I can see where that was going.
A mile away there was, I think.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
So how long was she in the police?
He joined in 2000.
No, sorry, go on.
So, yeah, three years from me.
Yeah, I know, I was just goingto say damo, damo, actually, um
called it at the time.
He said he used to call itschultz airlines because if you
wanted, if you wanted to gettreatment on, please air when
you call schultz.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So did your wife become a police officer because
of you, or?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
do you meet as a teacher originally.
So we went up there togetherand she was teaching um, yeah, I
won't really speak for her, butshe, she kind of got a bit, I
suppose, not depressed, but um,a bit it didn't really like the
education department, the way itwas run and all that.
She didn't feel like they weresupporting people further down,
um, and she was working longhours and she decided she was
(16:01):
going to do a career change andshe asked me and she said would
you mind if I joined the police?
I said no, not at all, like youknow.
Yeah, join up.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, so she did in 2010 and, um, yeah, she was a
very, very good officer I wasgoing to say, most coppers would
say what were you having secondthoughts and you were wanting
to get a quick divorce orsomething?
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Well, it did eventuate that way in the end.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
We might come back to that.
So you've done a couple ofremote communities.
What happens next?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Well, mate, so I did that and then so I'd went, when
I went to croker island.
When I came back, I got theoption to go in the family and
domestic violence unit.
So I mean, you're looking, thisis three years from when I
started the college then and, uh, and I got to be a plainclothes
constable working in adetective's office, um, which
was, which was, yeah, exactly.
(16:55):
I know you're just sittingthere and go, wow, how could you
get that opportunity so early?
But that's the way theterritory ran it was.
You know it got opportunitiesand I loved that was a first
step into working, you know, inthose investigative roles, and I
really enjoyed it.
So I did that for probablyabout six to eight months,
(17:17):
really enjoyed it.
So I did that for probably aboutsix to eight months and then
during that time my wife at thetime was also joining the police
, so she was up in Darwin doingthe training and when she came
out I actually asked to be putback on the road so I could
actually spend more time withher, and they actually put us on
the same shift.
We never worked in the same car, but we're actually on the same
shift, which was good.
Yeah, like I enjoyed that andbecause of my experience at the
(17:40):
time, they then asked me to be atraining officer because they
were getting those problems atthat stage in the force that
they were just recruiting somany people and they didn't have
good senior partners to spreadacross.
So basically I was fairlyexperienced and I'd run stations
, I'd done the commander's tackteam.
I worked into in for a bit.
Um, I've been out in bushstations and I was also worked
(18:02):
as a plainclothes connie in moreserious roles and during that
first stint that I did, we um weactually took care of a murder
investigation.
Um, you know, we we werebasically running around, uh,
doing a murder investigation,and so it really opened your
eyes to how so how many yearsexperience did?
Oh sorry, yeah, sorry, how manyyears experience when I went in
(18:23):
there.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, well, when you went back on the road, how many
years had spent.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
So that was probably more like October in 2010.
So three years since I've beenon the road, so three and a half
years all up since I joined thecollege and and you'd had
remote experience actingsergeant officer.
Oic work playing clothes yeah,worked in the commander's back
(18:48):
team.
I did that for six monthslooking after unlawful entries
and juvenile crime yeah, it'slike the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You I was gonna say you probably you probably get a
gig now, uh, in Townsville or inBrisbane running the
government's crime justice team,juvenile justice programs,
wouldn't you?
Because God knows, they needsomeone to do it.
Just as a bit of a buy here,not a segue, more a thing of
(19:17):
that, if anyone's watching.
And for you also, ben,sometimes having some internet
issues and I might talk over thetop of or something like that,
there's just internet, becausethat's just the way it is living
in the country.
Yes, so, um, all right, so you,you're working on the road.
What was that?
Was that at katherine?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
yes.
So when I went back on backonto the road working with my
ex-wife now but yeah, that wasin katherine, that was just
general duties and I so one ofher actually squaddies uh, he
was an absolutely brilliant guyand he was having trouble.
He had some really bad seniorpartners uh leading into it and
and he was really stressed outand almost ready to leave the
(19:58):
job and they'd only been in fora couple of months.
Uh, he was really stressed outand so the shift sergeant came
to me and he said he said look,he said, can I give you this guy
?
He's really stressed out, buthe's really brilliant.
He's really like, he's good atwhat he does.
He's just had some reallyterrible senior officers trying
to guide him through the policeand I had him.
(20:18):
I looked after him for aboutthree months and I reckon within
about two weeks he was lovingthe job.
It was just the fact that, as meas a senior partner, all I said
.
I said, all right, you've got ashitload of jobs, you've got a
lot of investigations, and Isaid what I'm going to do is I
will take all the jobs from hereon in until you get all yours
cleared up.
So every time we go on shift,every job comes to me.
(20:41):
But also back then we alsoworked in the watch house.
So I also asked the sergeant ifwe could have two watch house
shifts every roster, so that wayonce a week basically.
And and he said yep, not aproblem, because I said the
watch house is great.
You get your quiet times wherewe can really go through your
paperwork and we can tell youhow to get through it and do the
jobs properly so they'll getfinalized and do investigations
(21:02):
properly and get them up to dateand get successful prosecutions
if it went down that path.
So I really enjoyed doing that.
It's a lot of work being asenior partner and guiding
teaching police.
I never realized how much itactually took out of my policing
until, like, I did that forabout a year and I'd done four
(21:22):
police in that time.
So three months of stint andyeah, and it was funny because
then they said, oh, we'll justmatch you up.
These are, you know, this is alady that's come down from
darwin.
She'd been policing up thereand darwin doesn't have the
experience that katherine has.
So they said can you justintroduce you into katherine?
And because you have to, likeyou know, up there they had a
coroner's conning down inkatherine.
You did the paperwork yourself,like that sort of stuff.
(21:44):
So and she I'll actually saythis oh okay, she had four dead
bodies on the first four shiftson the road in catherine no, no
one would want to work with iton that so, um, yeah, so, but so
it was probably handy because II showed her how, what the
paperwork you had to fill outand, um, yeah, doing doing a
(22:04):
coronial file and all that sortof thing which we were.
I mean, obviously we hadexperience, we had to do them
all the time ourselves.
Like I think there was a policyin the Northern Territory
Police that anybody on probationcouldn't actually be in charge
of a coronial file, but I thinkI did two or three while I was
on probation.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It's just, yeah, yeah it's.
It's just, yeah, it'sabsolutely nuts like that.
Yeah, well, if, if you were thejunior connie and there was a
dead body, you got it.
It was like you know, yeah,welcome, welcome, welcome to the
same type type deal.
I think I think the hardest one, not the hardest one.
I remember the first one.
Uh, the guy was in a caravan insummer in the middle of Cairns
for seven days.
(22:46):
So that's one thing you neverforget.
I was in Baduri and Baduri isabout 200 kilometers, 250
kilometers north of Birdsvillein the straight line and about
four or 500 kilometers south ofMount Isa in a straight line.
So it's in the middle ofabsolutely nowhere.
(23:08):
We were flooded in so youcouldn't get in and out of town.
Yeah, I know that feeling.
Plane lands, yeah, yeah, planelands, old mate, who's a
passenger on the plane?
Yeah, he's dead.
So that has its own set ofproblems that you have to deal
with.
In regards to okay, well, we'vegot to turn the morgue on, turn
(23:29):
the fridge on and you've got to, you've got to.
You know how do you get him out?
Because you can't drive, no onecan get in.
You're gonna have to fly them.
There's a whole bunch of thingsaround that.
So they're things you just hadto learn to do and understand
what to do, because there wasn'tanyone else that could do it
for you yeah, yeah, yeah, that'sexactly right and yeah, I mean
(23:49):
that that's, catherine, for youthat's definitely bush policing.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
You know, on a whole, you, you had no resources out
there.
You were the resource, so youso you had to learn how to do it
.
I um, you know, I chipped lateryears and I actually said to
the commander because I hadtrouble sending people out of
bush people like Damo and I, weloved going bush, we loved the
autonomy of it.
It was busy at times but weloved it.
And I said to the commander Isaid well.
(24:13):
I said why don't you make arequirement that people they can
relieve out there but they haveto do at least six months
before they go for Santa Conning, you know, at a bush station
and he goes oh, you can't dothat.
I said well, why not?
You say part of the thing iswhen you join the police is, are
you willing to go everywhere?
And everybody says yes, so andjust give them the option.
(24:34):
You know, and you know what wasfunny off later on.
So when I left the police theythen brought in.
It was mandatory thecommissioner would send you out
bush before you got a promotion.
So they were sending, they weremaking people go out, bush,
instead of asking and makingthem a requirement to to like go
for promotion.
He was then sending people andI said, well, no, that's not
going to work either, becausepeople need to work around their
(24:56):
family and all that sort ofthing.
Give them the option and theyhave to do it if they want to.
You know, get promoted.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah, it's, it's one of those things you, you came in
at a time where, where theystarted bringing in, you know,
ribbons for last place andthings like that, it was all
about making sure, making sure,making sure everyone was happy
and can change, and uh, allthose sorts of things, uh that's
exactly right anyway.
(25:22):
So what?
What after?
What happened after that?
Where did you, where did youwork?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
so when I'm done.
Basically what happened was ohlook, I won't go into too much,
this is more my wife's story,but she, she got a cancer and so
we had some time off, uh, whileshe dealt with that.
And then when we came back wehad some problems in the police
department.
Just, they basically wanted tokick her out of the police
because of the damage theradiation had done and all that
sort of thing.
But yes, basically we had a bitof a fight with the police
(25:50):
department, which we won, andshe got fully confirmed, which
was right.
She was absolutely she was avery, very good officer and she
still she was she's finished now, but she was, she was a very,
very good police officer um, andbasically then we separated, or
basically broke up goingthrough all that trauma, and
(26:10):
then I went, I decided well,funnily enough, I'll go back and
tell a bit of a story here.
So one of the other stations Irelieved in early on was
Ramangini police station, whichis in the middle of Arnhem Land,
if you, if you know NorthernTerritory, it's in the Gulf.
It's about 26 kilometres, Ithink, from Ramagini to the
barge landing and, if you look,search for a place called
(26:31):
Millingimby, an island just offthe coast, that Ramagini,
straight inland from there,about 26 kilometres, I got the.
Well, basically, what happenedwas they had there was under the
intervention, and they asked meI, they asked me the sergeant
out there was going on leave fortwo or four weeks, I think, and
they asked me this is in 2010,I think it was.
(26:52):
And, um, they asked me.
They said can you go out thereand look after the station for
you know, for while he's onleave?
And I said yeah, yeah, I can dothat.
So I went out there and I metand I'll mention his name there
Muhammad Abaka Ali is his name.
He's a.
He's a great guy.
He's in the Western AustralianPolice now, so I won't tell too
(27:12):
many stories, but he's still inthe police.
He was in the Northern Territory.
Oh, I love the bloke he was.
He was basically fresh out ofthe college well, fairly fresh
out of the college as well andhe was the second second man out
there and I worked with him fora couple of weeks and had a
great time.
It was just fantastic.
And I said at that stage theywere actually building a $12
(27:33):
million police station there,because it was going to become a
permanent station, not just athemis station.
Under the intervention that wasstarting to happen.
The plans were getting put inplace when I was out there in
2010 and, funnily enough, I saidto him at the time I said if I
ever break up with my wife, Iwill put him for this station as
a sergeant when it gets built.
(27:54):
And lo and behold, two yearslater, the sergeant position the
first actually substantialsergeant of Ramangini Police
Station came up for grabs and Iwas out there relieving at the
time and relieving Manning Greenand a couple of other stations
around it, just helping out, andI put in for the job and I got
it.
So I was the first one to takeover a $12 million police
(28:18):
station.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Was it a better building than the one you'd been
at?
Oh the.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
FEMA stations, mate, they were just containers.
You're living in shippingcontainers, that's it Fair
enough.
Yeah, so a bit more flash,definitely.
But I worked for close to threeyears out there and look, a lot
of people said to me at thetime.
They said you know, you'recrazy.
You know, taking over a newstation.
Usually when you take over astation, the sergeant before you
(28:45):
has already got things rollingand all that sort of thing.
But I had to create everything.
Yeah, ammunition register, likethey had it, but it was because
police had been coming andgoing and chopper, yeah, there'd
been no constant police, it wasall over the shop.
I remember the first stationinspection before I moved into
the new police station.
Like when I got out there Iactually got my ass dragged over
(29:05):
the coals because it was insuch a shit state.
But it takes so long to getthat stuff under control and I'd
been out there for about twoweeks at that stage Hardly fair
work.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Don't think it was quite, or flat, but anyway,
typical police.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
But you know I got it , but it was a lot of work, it
was a lot of work.
You know I got it, but it was alot of work, it was a lot of
work.
I yeah, I can't Basically look,put in perspective, my overtime
bill a year, like so what thepolice used to pay me in
overtime was around $50,000.
So you can imagine how much,yeah, how much work I did out
there and, look, I love thecommunity I did, but I basically
(29:44):
got a bit burnt out.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
You know, doing that for three years how many, how
many coppers were at thatstation?
Well, originally.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
When I first went out there, when it was under the
intervention or themis, therewas a lot of the time it was
just me and one other person.
If I was lucky, even my mum anddad had just retired at the
time.
I remember my senior sergeantsitting there going maybe we
should just give them uniforms.
So it looks like we've got morepolice out there I'm surprised
they didn't go the cutout mode.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
You know like they used the comments, the
shoplifter one.
I don't know whether you'veever used to see the um, the
police, the cutout police forlife.
So I've won in the shop.
Say if you get caught yeah,yeah I think that was considered
as well.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
But basically, once it became a full-time station,
uh, or permanent police station,there was me as a sergeant and
then I had two constables andone aboriginal community police
officer.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
So there was a role for those, for those uh, three
other officers, okay, and that'sa fairly big station then yeah,
it was a full full full, fullman station, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah, okay, so you're going.
Sorry, I mean it was, it was abusy station, but it was.
It kind of had it high and lows, like you know.
But you know what police is,like Full moon, it goes
absolutely nuts and then youwon't have anything for two
weeks.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, I do know that.
All right.
So you're three years there,you burn out.
What happens then?
Well, mate.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
So then Damo, the other ordinary cop he was at
Borraloola and he sent him, well, first off.
Damo, the other ordinary cop,he was at Boralula and he sent
him, well, first off.
I'll sit there.
I applied for a cross-borderteam which was down Nala Springs
and there was basically me andone other person going for the
job.
We were the top people for thejob.
She just beat me, nudged aheadof me and I kind of got a bit of
(31:27):
the shits with that.
There was some circumstancesaround why that happened.
And and I kind of got a bit ofthe shits with that, there was
some circumstances around whythat happened and I wasn't
overly impressed because Ibasically, I mean, I got Ramon
Guinea.
I wasn't even a substantivesergeant when I went for the job
in Ramon Guinea, but I beat asergeant for the job, basically
because of my experience and youknow.
And then I looked at when Iwent for the cross-border team
and basically everybody, even upto the superintendent in the
(31:50):
cross-border team who was incharge of it, wanted me, um, and
yeah, and I missed out.
So I was kind of a bit cheesedoff about that.
And then Damo said well, whydon't you come to Borraloola?
I'm a Borraloola, you know wecan get together, have a whole
lot of fun.
And so I thought, well, allright, I'll go to Borraloola.
And I thought, well, I wasalready thinking about leaving
the police at that stage, and Iwas nine years in at that stage
(32:13):
and I thought, well, I know thepolicing, I was banging my head
against a brick wall, beingsergeant of a police station.
I couldn't get the stuff that Ineeded done.
I had this misconception that Icould actually fix it if I got
into politics and and anyway, soI then.
So I applied for Borralalulaand got it.
And then I was.
I only got to spend about amonth there with damo.
(32:35):
Amo got sent down to alicespring because they needed
coppers down there.
So which was probably a goodthing in a way, because
otherwise the drinkingconsumption would have gone up
significantly if him and I'dbeen there I was gonna ask if
there was a police club anywherenearby, see, ramming gu.
Guinea was a dry community soyou couldn't drink out there.
I mean, if you look at me backthen I was probably just look, I
(32:58):
was 80 kilos and I was solidmuscle because all I did was eat
well and train.
That's all I did and dopolicing.
So I was extremely fit.
I was doing, you know, goSydney for the, for the city, to
surf runs, I was doing halfmarathons and all that sort of
thing like, yeah, I was reallysuper fit because you just
couldn't drink out there.
(33:19):
So um got to concentrate on myfitness and then I went to
Borraloola and that changed.
Um, I went to Borraloola and Ican tell you Borraloola is
probably one of the mostvolatile stations I ever worked
in.
I think at that stage in mycareer I had about one complaint
a year In that one year inBorough of Lula, I got 10.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
So yeah, why is it so volatile and sort of explain.
Can you explain a little bitwhat you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, so it's a very.
It can really go crazy.
You've got a lot of, I suppose,a lot of youth crime.
The problem is you've got threedifferent camps Mara Garawa,
and there's a new sub, butthere's another one I can't
think of it off the top of myhead and they're all different
kind of tribes as well to acertain extent.
So that causes a bit ofconflict, I mean, yeah, and then
(34:13):
you've got robinson river,which is just down the road.
You've got dumajee, which isjust over the border, you know,
if you go down through the gulf.
Um, so you used to get peoplefrom dumajee coming in good old
doom and, yeah, anybody that'sread the stalk the tall man.
Is it the tall man the one thatkilled?
Oh, the one that basicallycameron dumajee died on palm
(34:33):
island back in the?
Speaker 1 (34:36):
yeah it was?
I actually think it was the2000, was it?
Yeah, yeah, so that was pretty,yeah, I just I just left, I
think so 2003, 2004.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
that's right.
And of course, I think he wasoriginally from dumadji itself.
I'm not entirely sure, butthere was definitely some
connection with the guy thatdied with Dumadji, so yeah, so
there was a bit of I was goingto say, funnily enough the
copper that was involved andthat actually spent time at
(35:12):
Dumadji.
Oh he, yeah, all right yeah, he, he did.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
He did a lot of country policing.
I worked with him both incairns and mount isaac and he
got stomped on by a bull, almostdied, trying to raise funds for
the community.
That's.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
That's another story yeah, I mean, I read the book.
It was funny because it was abook written by what do you call
it, I don't know.
It wasn't an investigativejournalist, it was, I don't know
, it was a journalist of somesort.
Anyway, and it was funnybecause I read it when I was out
at Croker Island.
I was sitting there going, geez, she's really taking a
one-sided point of view in this.
She obviously didn't like thepolice very much, and but when I
(35:52):
was reading it, I'm going, ah,jesus, it's definitely swayed
like there's no, I mean, that'salways a problem with police,
though, isn't it like theypolice are very quiet and tight
when it comes to that sort ofstuff?
Because, yeah, they, they justrather let it kind of wash over.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
I remember being on a flight back from melbourne or
sydney with him and leave it.
Yeah, um, last year or the yearbefore, no, it was last year.
We were having a discussion andtalking about how they're
trying to get police to join andeveryone's leaving.
I work in recruitment now and Isaid the biggest problem with
(36:26):
policing is that no one tells agood story.
The only story you ever hearabout police is when the shit
has hit the fan, and only storyyou ever hear about police is
when the shit has hit the fanand something's gone wrong and
the police get blamed.
I said the, the worst pr, eventheir pr people are bad at pr.
At pr, they can't turn anystory, they can't put anything
good out.
And I said that's, that is thebiggest issue, knowing the, the,
(36:49):
the negativity, and just it'slike, oh well, we'll, just won't
worry about it, we'll shut itdown, and I think policing as a
profession suffers from that andthat negativity has a mental
health impact on the people whoare police.
But that I will come back to.
(37:11):
Okay, unfortunately, that's allwe have time for for this
episode of Behind the Thin BlueLine.
I hope you're enjoying myconversation with Ben Schultz
and telling us his story of howhe got into the police.
Join me next Tuesday for thenext part of this episode and
the next part of this discussionwith Ben.
(37:32):
Hope you have a good day andI'll chat to you then.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode we'll againexplore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
(37:52):
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
(38:13):
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.