August 5, 2024 • 37 mins
What happens when a police officer decides to trade the badge for the ballot? Join me, Jason Somerville, as I sit down with Ben Schultz, a former Northern Territory police officer who made that bold transition into politics. In this episode of "Behind the Thin Blue Line," Ben takes us through his journey from a police prosecutor to confronting the Police Association and ultimately choosing a new path. His candid conversations with high-ranking officials like Commissioner Rhys Kershaw illuminate the close-knit world of law enforcement and the profound impact one individual can have.
We also touch on the broader theme of navigating the professional landscapes of politics, policing, and teaching. Ben shares poignant personal stories about childhood bullying that fueled his lifelong commitment to standing up for others. Through his experiences, we explore the camaraderie and rivalries between different emergency services, offering a heartfelt glimpse into how early personal challenges can shape a fulfilling career in law enforcement.
The episode takes a gripping turn as Ben recounts some of the most intense moments of his policing career in the Northern Territory, from managing large-scale tribal conflicts to the psychological toll of desensitization and PTSD. Through humor and honesty, Ben reflects on the highs and lows, illustrating the resilience and camaraderie that help officers cope with the demands of the job. Tune in to uncover the raw human experiences behind the badge and gain a deeper understanding of the complex world of law enforcement.
Please be sure to Subscribe to and Follow the Podcast so you never miss an Episode and if you like what you are hearing then please "Like" the episode and podcast on your favourite podcast app.
If you would like to be involved in a "Whisper In The Shadows" Podcast through talking about your experiences as an current or former Police/Law Enforcement Officer or tell your stories then I'd love to hear from you.
I can be contacted on my socials below -
Email - whisperintheshadowspodcast@gmail.com
Instagram - @whisperintheshadowspodcast
Facebook - Whisper in the Shadows Podcast Page
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a glint
into something you will likelynever get to experience Uncover
the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me Jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police officer
myself, as we navigate throughthese stories on Behind the Thin
Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest line.
(01:30):
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome back to part two of myconversation with ben schultz.
Let's get on with thatdiscussion.
What I want to get at, what Iwant to get is so you, you'd had
enough.
You've, you've, you've, uh,you've, you've gone.
Maybe I can change how thingsare happening by entering
politics.
What happened?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
there.
So basically, I mean, if youlook at, northern Territory
Police is a very small policeforce.
There was only I think therewas only 1,200 of us back then.
I mean there was only about1,000, I think when I first
joined.
So I mean I knew.
So you know, to tell you a story, I was at an event in
Borraloola which was I think itwas 150 years since, and the
(02:09):
courts had been in Borraloola,and so it was a big, like you
know, and the commissioner flewdown which was and I will
mention his name, it's RhysKershaw.
He's the commissioner of the FBat the moment and he was our
commissioner at the time.
And so we're sitting there youknow I'm being my usual larrikin
self.
We had court on at the time.
I was a police prosecutor.
(02:29):
So I'm sitting there talking tothe magistrate and you know, or
judge as they're called now,but magistrate and all that sort
of thing, because I was on agood first name basis with a lot
of them because I've beenprosecuting for a while and
anyway the commissioner walksover and he goes.
You always know that the tablewith schultzy on it it's always
the loudest one.
(02:49):
So I mean, you know, if youthink of anybody in the police
force.
There's not many commissionersthat would know somebody's
personality and also their name,you know, just rocking up at an
event.
So we were fortunate in the waythat it was very close, a
community sort of thing, um, andI mean, it doesn't mean that
everybody knew the commissioner.
I was very outspoken, like Isaid, when we took on the police
(03:13):
.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I find that hard to think.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, well, when we took on the police, when my
ex-wife had that drama and allthat sort of thing, I got very
well known.
The police association.
I took them on at the same um,because I had a problem with
them and one against them aswell.
And yeah, and I I also.
They did a promotional videowhen I was out at ramming guinea
trying to get people inrecruiting to go out to these
(03:37):
locations.
So there's a five minute videoon youtube of me out of ramming
guinea policing and they used meas a promotion with two other I
think it was two other stationsthey did it with as well.
So just to try and get so youknow, and if you look at it, it
was funny.
One of the comments was they hadme doing an interview as part
of that that five minute clip.
And anyway it got all sent inand the commission had to look
(03:59):
over it to get approved.
And he looks at it and he goesyou're just going to have to do
the interview again.
I said why is that?
He said the fiber collegeshadow of his beard because he
should be clean shaven.
So they actually flew me backinto darwin.
They actually flew me intodarwin so I could do the
interview in there instead ofout of ramagini, because I'd
already done all the filming so,and you had to make sure you
(04:22):
came with a right yeah, um.
What was funny is I forgot myname badge when I went in there.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
You should just ask a question.
For years I'll just put yourson.
So can you tell me why?
What happened what?
What precipitated you leaving?
What was the story behind youleaving?
How and how long had you beenin the job at that point?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
so I've been in the job for basically close to 10
years when I decided to leaveand then I took basically a
year's leave without pay tobasically just to try and figure
out where I want, just to tryand relax, and I'd I'd been flat
out for by that stage I mean mywhole career, I hadn't stopped.
(05:01):
If an opportunity, opportunitycame up, I went for it and, as
you can see from what I'vetalked about, like my
experiences, it was just, youknow, if there was a job, I did
it and that was probably part ofthe reason why, you know, I
didn't work out with my ex-wifeas well.
You know, if there was a job atBush, I took it.
If the police wanted it, I didit.
(05:22):
It and I gained a lot ofexperience.
But I remember damo uh sayingand so the other half of the
ordinary cop, he said he said anordinary person would be dead.
He said the amount of work youwere doing is phenomenal and I
mean I loved it, I lived the joband but with that kind of the
responsibility or the knowledgeof knowing and I said this
(05:42):
before we got cut off but I hadto justify the job, like every
time you went to an incident.
If you got a complaint, you hadto justify why you made those
decisions, why you did this, whyyou did that.
You know there was so muchpaperwork.
If I want a prisoner flown on aon police air wing, you had to
do a risk assessment about this.
That you know.
Every time something went wrongin the police they created
(06:03):
another piece of paperwork whichyou had then had to fill out.
So you know, for a job thatused to take you half an hour or
who am I kidding a file to takeup, a file that used to take
you, say, two hours to do asimple file you know would take
you four hours to do because ofthe extra bits and pieces of
paperwork you had to fill out.
And these pieces of paperworkwere predominantly put in
(06:27):
because the department didn'thave the right people doing the
job at the time and so anincident had arisen that they
didn't have the qualified peopleto take care of it.
So it was and look, do I blamethe police department?
No, I mean, there's a lot ofmany factors that come into it.
The bosses, I think a lot ofthe trying are trying to do the
best that they can, but you knowit all goes through the
(06:49):
government and all that sort offunding and you know resources
and all that sort of stuff.
And so I thought, well, insteadof trying to keep banging my
head against a brick wall andmoving up through the ranks, why
don't I try and influencepolitics or go into politics to
to try and fix it from the topend?
Now I'm gonna I'm gonna be abit harshy about the way I say
(07:12):
this, but I was always one ofthe first people to sit there
and when I talk about the policeforce and I always said that
they couldn't organize a root ina brothel with a fist full of
50s.
And I'll tell you, but one ofthe funniest things is when I,
when I actually got involved inpolitics.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
It makes the police force look like a willow machine
and I think that's a commonmisconception with um and and
I'll come back to this, but Ithink that's a common
misconception by police andprobably anyone else really, for
that matter that when you, whenyou've got to that point where
you go you know what fuck it I'mleaving you think everything
(07:46):
else is going to be better, thatnothing can be as bad as where
you are.
The way the world is designed,it's just dysfunctional.
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
You know it really opened my eyes up, I suppose you
know when I left, yeah, I justthought, wow, no wonder, no
wonder the poor police force isstruggling and you know, health
and everything and education andall that sort of thing.
When you look at some of themuppets up high, you know, in
the political spectrum, andwhat's a shame is there are some
really good politicians as well, but they've just drowned out
(08:19):
by the idiots, which is such ashame, by by the ideologues,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So how did you go?
Did you get elected?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
No, I basically.
You know I got involved withthe party and I'm still involved
in it now and I always hadplans to run even in this state
election.
But basically I started thepodcast with Damo and that got
very popular and I've always.
The problem with politics isyou're controlled about what you
can say In the podcast.
(08:51):
There's nobody telling Damo andI what we can and cannot do.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Well, you haven't had any lawyers' letters turn up
yet.
Let's put it that way.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
And look, if I did run.
All they'd have to do to findsomething on me is listen to the
podcast.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, I hear you and it's quite interesting that a
profession like politics, whereit's all supposed to be about
you know you doing things andlooking after the populace and
saying what you mean, and thenyou're not allowed to.
Yeah, kind of like policing,where you're there looking after
(09:26):
the populace, keeping them safe, but you're not allowed to say
what you really think yeah,exactly yeah, that's right.
Yeah, mate, and I think and abit like teaching and all those,
all those sorts of jobs yeah,yeah, I mean, you know what my,
my hat goes off.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
my heart goes out to the paramedics and the people in
health there.
They're doing a very, verytricky job, and teachers too,
like jeez.
I mean I always felt sorry forthe teachers when I was in the
police.
At least we had hours, you know, to do something.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
That's very true.
I bet the only people you don'tfeel sorry for are the fireys,
because they get to sleep 20hours a day.
Mate, your name feels similarto the fireys because they get
to sleep 20 hours a day, Mate.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
look, I'll say this joke.
Why are there police?
Why?
Speaker 1 (10:07):
So fireys can have heroes and I know there are a
couple of fireys that listen toWinston, one of the previous
victims of the fire.
I tell every kid that one mate.
There's a very keen rivalry, soI just want to sort of go off
on a little bit of a tangenthere.
I'll come back to some of theseother things that we've been
talking about.
What did you want to be whenyou were a kid?
(10:28):
I wanted to be a police officer.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
That was my, okay.
So you grew up wanting to be apolice officer because I saw my
uncle and I remember mom and dadlike got some little small
police shirts for me.
I've always I kind of like totouch on something here when I
was growing up I was, I was sortof grew up, uh, an hour north
of bundaberg, a little placecalled berrajonda.
My dad, mom and dad, had a farmout there and I used to go to
(10:50):
school in rosedale and used tobe on the bus, you know, back in
the days when kids caught thebus to school and, um, and
anyway, and I would get bulliedon that bus every day.
I was only a little kid, I'd beon the bus with my brothers,
but my brothers, two olderbrothers, they, yeah, I mean
they, they they're lovely peoplebut they're not, you know, not
tough guys by any stretch of theimagination.
(11:11):
They, they got, you know, bornwith more brains than than, uh,
brawn, so to speak.
And I, anyway, I there was oneday, this, this I was pretty
tough as a kid and I look backnow I was definitely very
resilient and this kid bulliedme every day and my mum had
always taught me ignore them andthey won't keep bullying you
anyway.
(11:32):
I remember this one day on thebus and he was sitting behind me
and he kept on bullying, justsaying stuff, and I just ignored
him, just pretended he wasn'tthere, and he actually punched
me in the back of the head.
He was two years older than meand my head flew forward.
You remember the old seats inthe bus and the steel bars, yeah
, and my head head butted.
That it really hurt.
(11:53):
And I remember back the timewhen I felt like crying but I
didn't, I still didn't react.
I just I sat there and I justdidn't react.
I had tears of my eyes but Iknew you know, not just you know
, just just don't, don't give into him.
You know, don't make him showthat he's he's, he's beating you
down.
And but it was at that stage mynext door neighbor actually
(12:13):
stood up and challenged thebully and said you will not
touch this kid anymore.
And and the bullying stopped asof that day and and I for weeks
I can't remember how long I waspretty young at the time and I
remember weeks after I wouldpretend to be my guardian angel.
You know that guy that stood upand then I reckon it was
(12:34):
probably about a month later,and I remember thinking to
myself why can't I be him, whycan't I be that person that
stands up against the bullies?
And um, and from that dayforward, that's what I've done.
I've been in more fights in mylife for other people than I
have for myself.
So, and all the way througheven that school, all the way
through high school, I went toboarding school here in Brisbane
(12:55):
and, um, you know, that was a,there was a real pecking order
in the boys boarding house, um,and yeah, geez, I have lost
count the amount of fights I'vebeen in just protecting other
people why didn't you join thepolice straight?
away.
I think it took me a long timeto figure out, like my, if you
look at my uh, you know I've gota very low op uh, or very high
(13:17):
op.
Whatever you do, like I was, Iwas basically the bottom of the
of the class, mind you.
Yeah, I was going to a very.
I was lucky enough to go to avery prestigious school where it
was very, very highly rankedand so, of course, I was the
bottom ranked at that school.
Um, you know, I've always beenmore a practical person than a
theoretical.
Um, so and that showed even inthe police college I struggled
(13:41):
with the theory in the policecollege to the point that I
could I couldn't almost passexams.
Then I found my niche and Ifound out how to learn and I
went from like 65% to just about90%, because actually you'll be
able to actually understandthis.
It was a good friend of minesaid to me I was trying to write
everything out and I'm a veryslow writer.
(14:02):
But he said how do you learnstuff when you're in school?
And I said I love doing plays.
And he said, well, learn, play.
So just read it out and learn.
And I did, and I went from 65to 90 in my exams.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So just just by, just by reading and and reciting and
we're probably going off in thetangent here, but one thing
that schools don't do is equippeople kids with understanding
how they learn, because it's allabout here it is on the
blackboard, here it is in apiece of paper, here it is on a
book.
You just learn it.
Where's um?
(14:34):
You know you've got so many.
You were talking about that.
Uh, you wanted to be a policeofficer from childhood, but you
obviously didn't get the op umand you worked out why, I guess,
or how you learn um once yougot to the academy.
Yeah, what did you do after youfinished?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
school.
Well, when I first left school,uh, so I met, um, oh, I suppose
I hooked up with a girlfriend,um, at school and, um, and her
father was a cray fisherman upnorth up in Torres Straits, so
he died for a tropical rocklobster up there.
And so when I left school shehad to go to uni and so she went
(15:14):
to Toowoomba, because that wasclose to me and I'm.
Basically I worked, I've beenworking, in the fruit shop.
My parents didn't have a hellof a lot of money, um, they were
lucky enough to send me to a,to quite a good school, uh, with
a bit of government help andall that sort of thing.
So I used to work a lot infruit stores, um, you know, in
holidays so I was, I used tocall school a holiday, which is
(15:36):
probably reflected in my opschool, um, but I'm a more of a
social sort of person, I suppose, and, um, yeah, so I just I
basically went back to work inthe fruit store and I also
started my own business doinglawn lawn mowing and landscaping
and all that sort of stuff, um,just to, just to try and keep
the money ticking over and in inthose.
(15:57):
Well, it was probably seven.
No, it was probably right up to2007.
I left school in 94, so right upuntil probably the end of the
90s or about 97, um, I used togo, uh, fly up um to uh, torres
straits or thursday island onholidays when it was holiday
time.
And, um and uh, myex-father-in-law used to take me
(16:20):
cray fishing or diving for rocklobster, which kind of freaked
me out when I first did it,because, uh, it's, um, yeah,
it's.
I mean, it's a pretty dangerousprofession and I and I did that
for.
So when she actually finisheduni, I went up there full-time
and worked on the boat.
Um, and got my own boat uh,dinghy, I was a subcontractor
off the boat.
Um, it's, you know, you workabout 100 120 days a year.
(16:43):
Um, you know, the rest of thetime you're just doing stuff on
the boat or going on holidaysand all that sort of thing, so
you need to make sure you earn alot of money.
Um, yeah, so I and I did thatfor a year, right up until about
2006 is when I finished off andum, and then um, and then
basically it was one of thosethings where I invested a whole
(17:05):
lot of more money into mybusiness up there cause I would
doing restrictions and that inthe fishery or go and do
something else, and I'd alreadybroken up with my first wife by
that stage.
So I figured that, um, that, uh,basically it it.
It wasn't good forrelationships going out to, you
know, because you're going outto sea for 120 days a year,
(17:28):
you're not around home much andall that sort of thing.
And towards the end of 2005,I'd met and I was going out with
my next wife to be wife, Isuppose, and she was a teacher
or just started teaching up inPort Douglas.
(17:49):
So basically, when I left her,my dad suggested that you know,
I go over and my uncle suggestedI go to the Northern Territory
Police.
So I put in an application andmy ex-wife now she put in for
teaching over there and got itstraight away and yeah, so we
just moved over and then Istarted in the police.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So yeah, Do you ever get the feeling that you pick
jobs that are anti-marriage?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
I do.
Yes, funnily enough, and Ithink I've said to you, um, I
said to you before, whether onthis or off it, and I've said I
was always a sucker punishment.
I always put a hundred percentinto everything that I did and
placing.
There was no difference, youknow, if they like, I said, I
think before that if I went outbush, if they wanted someone to
(18:40):
go at bush, I went out bush.
I just did everything Ipossibly could to, um, you know
to, because I loved policing.
It was my life, um, and thatobviously reflected in my, in my
marriage as well.
Um, because, yeah, I was.
I was just so involved in the,in the, in the job, um, I loved
it.
I really like policing, wasit's my, my ultimate job.
(19:02):
It always has been, it's in myblood.
That will be the best career Iwill ever have in my life.
So it's, yeah, I really lovedit, and I was born to be a
police officer.
Unfortunately, I think that thepolice force is a structure
(19:23):
these days that isn't reallysuited to my style of policing.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
And we put it that way you were born too late.
Is that what you?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
were saying yes, yes, mate, yeah, definitely I joined
.
When I joined the NewlandTerritory it was like a last
frontier, so they hadn't reallycaught up with the other states
and you were left.
You had a lot of autonomy, yeah, and I really enjoyed being in
control.
I'll actually tell you a funnystory.
This is later on in my career,towards the end, and I had a bit
(19:49):
of a disagreement with one ofmy sergeants over a planned
event.
And anyway, my senior sergeanthe was actually off duty, he was
fishing at the time, but heoverheard the discussion, let's
say.
And anyway, I was walking backup to my house because he was
staying with me out there whenwe were out at Borraloola, and
(20:10):
he goes, what was that?
And I said, oh, just somemiscommunication, and blah, blah
, blah.
Anyway, he goes, ah, he saidshe obviously didn't get the
memo.
I said, what memo?
He said, well, he said to, wetell you what to do and then you
do whatever the fuck you wantanyway.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Um, yeah, I can see that, I can.
I can see the a pattern in thatfrom talking to you at those
sorts of things.
Um, okay, look, talking about,I guess about probably is a good
time to sort of go into whatare some of the more standout
(20:49):
war stories or worries that youhave, that sort of shine the
light on what life's really likeas a copper in the Northern
Territory, I think.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Look, I mentioned one earlier and that was Damo said.
You know when he went to, whenyou're working in indigenous
communities, you can get up to300 people fighting.
I had one memorable one for mewas I think it was around 2014
or 15.
And basically, and what peopleneed to understand, there's
(21:20):
different tribes.
There's so many differenttribes of aboriginals and the
tribes hate each other a lot ofthe time, so they'll have
grievances that go backcenturies.
You know from something thathappened back in the 1800s and
so on and so forth.
So what happened was Elko Islandhad come over to Ramangini and
(21:42):
I can't even remember it wasprobably over two people having
an argument.
That's how these fightsbasically start out and it was
quite big.
It was probably about 300 to500 people and they're just
fighting and it's just happeningall over town and we're going
through, but we could walkthrough as cops and not get
touched.
(22:03):
The fight was between the, thetribes, not between the police.
So, but we got to the stagewhere I I still remember vividly
a guy getting stabbed in frontof me, um, you know, and I had
to grab him and pull him backand get him to the clinic and
all that sort of stuff.
It's um and.
But I mean we were luckybecause their grievance was with
(22:24):
each other, not with us.
But in the end it went on forabout half a day and I was on
the phone to the superiors allthe time and they'd agreed that
they would send TRG, which isour, I think, cert, it's called
here in Queensland and basicallyI yelled out over the top of
(22:44):
them.
I said I'm on the phone to mycommander right now and they
will have, you know, trg outhere within four hours If you
don't stop this fighting.
And the people from Elko Islandhad years or many years ago
there was someone shot when asimilar thing was going on by
people in the TRG.
So they were quite terrified ofthe TRG actually coming out
(23:07):
there and um, so they literallyit stopped instantly and they
got on a plane or boats and wentback to Elko Island.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
So I'm surprised they didn't go four hours.
That gives us another threehours of giving it the time but,
um, you know that that was thatwas.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
There's some pretty intense, um you know, jobs when
you're out there and you'reoutnumbered.
There was only, oh, there wasonly three cops there at the
time.
Um, so you know, there's notreally a lot you can do, you've
just got to manage it the bestyou can.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
So yeah, uh, anything , anything else.
And I'll do this because yougot me to tell a couple of
stories on on your podcast.
So what's a funny type ofincident that's occurred, where
you look back and, yeah, oh mygod, why did I?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
it was.
It was early on and I tell thisone fairly regularly.
It's a.
It's a fairly funny story, um,so we were a good mate of mine,
who's he's still in the police,actually up in Darwin, but I'll
name him.
I named him in our podcast whenI told the story, so I'll name
him here, but Andrew Duggan, andwe call him Duggo, and he was a
(24:16):
squad just after us and we weredriving around one night this
is probably.
We were only pretty fresh inthe police then, like night this
is probably.
We're only, oh, pretty fresh inthe police then, like we would
only be a year or something inpolicing.
And, um, anyway, we're drivingaround east side, catherine, and
Catherine is a very busy townand you get a call.
It's about, I don't know aboutnine or ten o'clock, I think,
(24:37):
and we get this call over theradio you know 481, I think, how
our, um, our car was and theysaid um, can you attend?
Down the main street ofcatherine, we've got a woman
walking towards kalana community.
She's got a six month old inone arm and a machete in the
other and she's walking tokalana to kill her husband, I
don't know.
(24:58):
So, yeah, I mean you've been inthe police before and any
police officer I understandgoing holy shit, how do you
handle this one.
And so, anyway, the funny thingdown and you know what we
always do is risk assess when wego into these jobs, yep, so
we're going down there and Isaid to Doug, I turned to him, I
said mate, how are we going todo this?
Like, how are we going to?
(25:18):
He goes, well, he said you'vegot the taser, you taser her and
I'll catch the baby.
Anyway, that was our riskassessment when we got there.
Good plan, yeah, great planning.
So anyway, so we get down there,and by the time we get down
there, she's actually crossingthe high-level bridge, which is
(25:40):
just to the north of Catherine,heading up towards Darwin, and
so we pull up on the bridge.
Now you've got to think theStuart Highway.
It's a big highway, it's themain thoroughfare from Darwin
right down to, basically,adelaide.
So there's a lot of trafficgoing to and forth and we've
actually cut the traffic off.
(26:00):
She's walking on the pedestrianpart of the bridge and so Dago
has gone around and run over andum, and actually jumped over
and, and you know, trying totalk to her, he's standing about
10 meters back.
Luckily somebody's alreadytaken the kid off her, so she
hasn't got the six month old.
So, yeah, our risk assessmentwas out the window, um, but we
could go with the rest of it andum, and anyway, so we're.
(26:24):
So he's trying to talk to her,trying to calm her down and all
this sort of stuff, and justkeep his distance and trying to,
yeah, just trying to get her toput the machete down and all
that sort of thing.
And I was walking up on adiagonal from behind her, so I
was at a 45 degree coming upbehind her and she had a
backpack on as well andbasically I had the taser out
(26:45):
and drawn and um, and ready toshoot, um, anyway, she's
basically got the shits in theend with whatever dugo was
saying, and she's lifted likethe machete up and she did.
She said if you're not gonnafucking help me then and he just
turned to me, dugo, calm, asanything, he goes, light her up,
schultzy.
So it wasn't.
Yeah, there's none of this,deploy the taser or any crap
(27:07):
like that.
It was lighter up, it waslighter up, yeah, anyway.
So I fired the taser and anybodythat understands tasers where
your dot is which, you've got ared dot.
That's where the first barbgoes and it shoots straight and
it hits the other barb goes on a45 degree diagonal, like down.
So you've got to try and you'vegot to be like it's perfect if
(27:31):
you're front on or back on whenyou're a little bit to the side.
However, you've got to bereally accurate, because the
barb, the second barb, will miss, and that's what happened.
So she, though, in thatinstance, that instant she got
hit, she thought she'd been shot, because it hits with quite an
impact, those little barbs, yepand um, and she's dropped the
machete.
However, me, I've sitting theregoing, oh shit, I've stuffed up
(27:56):
.
But I didn't turn the taser offbefore because we've got spare
cartridges.
So I actually grabbed thecartridge while it was still
cycling to take it off and Itasered myself.
Um, so I got zapped in front of50 people, 50 onlookers, um, I
actually tasered myself that'shilarious.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I um, I left just before we got tasers.
Um, and one of the things thatI was probably glad was that
when we got given um pepperspray, you actually had to, you
know, be sprayed, so you knewwhat it was like.
So that way then when youdeployed it, you knew what
effect you were having on thepeople you were deploying it on.
(28:38):
Um, thankfully, uh, I'd leftjust as tasers were being
deployed.
So I, touch wood, have neverbeen tasered and I'm pretty sure
that's a good thing.
Yeah, just quietly.
Yeah, I've been with you.
Get to enough issues withpepper spray.
I've been, you know, standingbehind someone and doing a at
(29:03):
the time, legal lateral vascularrestraint, yep.
A week later, not so yeah, andsomeone goes oh, I'll just spray
them, and you know, stupidmoves his head and you cop the
full force of the spray and thatsort of stuff.
So I can imagine what it wouldbe like with a taser.
I'd be changing what are theycalled Police pants all the time
.
I'd probably wet myself eachtime I with a taser I'd be
(29:24):
changing what are they calledPolice pants all the time.
I probably wet myself each timeI get a taser.
What I want to do is sort of goa little bit into.
One of the things that I talkabout in this podcast is PTSD,
and some of the effects thatI've had is PTSD, and some of
the effects that I've had andbecause I've been out for such a
(29:45):
longer time, you tend to noticeit more than when you just
leave.
Yeah, what about you?
Because you didn't go instraight from a young age, you
did other things, you had lifeexperience.
Yeah, do you feel that you haveany signs of PTSD?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, I definitely do , damo and I, like we.
I think part of the reason thatI survived, like even going
through the police and beingreasonably sane and healthy, was
because, basically, damo, hewas like we were inseparable,
like always talking catch up.
If we had a problem, likesomething happened in the police
(30:24):
, we'd just discuss it.
And you know it's a burden, youknow, spread across two
shoulders.
You're carrying half the weight, yep, and I'll touch on
something that's basically.
I mean, this is, and youprobably know it as well, when
you go further on in your career, you become a little bit
complacent, to a sense, or alittle bit, you'd like.
(30:46):
It doesn't excite you as muchlike the jobs and I'll yeah,
I'll touch on.
So there was one when I was inborough law this, my last year
in the police and this guy, thismental guy, was carrying on and
he um, yeah, we got caught upthere.
He's mentally ill, he's goingoff.
The family are terrified fromhim, he'd like he's threatening
(31:08):
them with weapons and all thatsort of stuff.
And anyway, I'm usually quitegood at chatting to people.
I can talk them into the cage,I'd.
You know I don't like usingforce, but I will if it's
necessary and all that sort ofthing.
I mean, I'd rocked up my pepperspray on my belt, hadn't had
pepper spray in it for aboutthree years, like I always use
the Party Packs, which is theMark 9, like it's a little fire
(31:28):
extinguisher and I didn't havethe taser on, but my partner,
she had the taser and she hadthe Mark 9.
And anyway, so we're there andI'm trying to chat to him and he
basically gets the shits and hethrows a milk crate at me, you
know, and I deflect it.
We're a good 15 meters away andI deflect it and anyway I kind
(31:51):
of thought, uh, I'm not going tobe able to talk this guy down,
he's just obviously, you know,he's off with the fairies and
whichever land he's on, and andI think we're going to have to
step this up a notch, and uh,anyway, so I turned to my
partner.
I said, look, you give me thetaser, you hold the pepper spray
.
So I clipped it on my belt andI was still talking to him and
about probably a couple ofminutes later he obviously
(32:14):
really got the shits that thisconversation wasn't going the
way he wanted to, and he pickedup a tire and a screwdriver and
basically bolted towards me andthe whole family took off at the
front of off, at the front gateof the house.
My partner, she, ran with them.
Anyway, I took a step back andI've gone, I've pulled the taser
(32:39):
up, I've pulled it out and I'vehit him absolutely.
It was textbook, absolutelytextbook, and his head to the
point that the taser hit himperfectly.
His head landed at my feet, sothat's how close he was.
And then I've just turned to mypartner.
I said do you want to get backin here?
I said, cuff him.
And uh, so she's walked in andcuff him.
I said I'm going to call theclinic because we've got to get
(33:01):
him assessed and you know, we'vegot to get these barbs out.
We pulled the barbs out, um andum, and you know, and then I
said all right, we'll take himto the cage.
I was on the phone to theclinic and anyway, we put him in
the cage.
You know people don't usuallyfight after they've been tased,
that they're usually prettypretty.
Uh, compliant, yep, um, andI'll comply, yeah, and so we.
(33:23):
So we walked, we put him in theback of the cage and walking to
the I was walking to likebecause I was driving I was
sitting there thinking there'sno adrenaline, there's nothing,
there is nothing at all in mysystem.
I am calm as anything.
Anyway, I sat in the front seatand my partner, she got in
beside me and she turned to meand she goes that has got to be
the calmest I've seen anybody ina high risk, like you, you know
(33:45):
environment.
She goes you didn't even likethere was no flutter, there was
no you know, um shaking, there'snothing.
And I was sitting there goingshit, there's something wrong
with me, there's somethingseriously wrong with me.
Anyway, so I went down, Ichecked my Apple watch after my
heart hadn't heartbeat, had notskipped a beat.
It was exactly the same, it waslevel, it was just, it was just
(34:08):
like it was, you know, a sundaymorning, having breakfast, and
um, yeah, anyway, I, a couple ofweeks later, I actually caught
up with dame.
I was up in darlin for somethingand I said you want to come and
have a beer?
And I told him about it and Isaid, mate, I think there's
something seriously wrong withme.
I said I should be reacting tothis stuff and I'm not.
And he just turned to me and hegoes it's the same for me.
And um, you know, and that thatto me I was gone, oh shit, all
(34:31):
right.
So other people actually it'snot just me, because I thought I
was mentally ill or something,you know, and I think that's
it's part of the you.
You see so much trauma, uh, inyour career as a police officer,
um, that you becomedesensitized to a certain extent
and it's just all normal, youknow, run-of-the-mill sort of
(34:54):
work you're doing, and I thinkthe problem is, though,
afterwards.
So to talk about the PTSD, Iremember when I first left the
police and I went to a NewYear's Eve celebration and I
couldn't relax.
I was sitting there looking forpeople, you know, trying to
(35:16):
sabotage, like, blow up thisbridge, and all that sort of
thing.
I was just my partner.
Who's my partner now?
Miriam, she's absolutelybeautiful and she was looking at
me and she goes holy.
You're just on edge, and I was,because I was just worried.
You've got a few thousand peopleat this celebration.
There's a bridge.
This is a perfect example.
Somebody could bloody blow itup and kill a hundred people or
(35:36):
a thousand people if they wantedto, and you still get.
And you get the heart races forthat, like you know, your heart
rate goes up, you get thechills.
You'll suddenly heart rate goesup.
Um, you, you get the chills.
You you'll suddenly go intothis zone where you think
something's going to happen.
Um, yeah, so it just it.
And I think the more I've beenout what seven years now the the
(35:58):
longer it goes on.
It doesn't really diminish much.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Um, you can probably comment on that because you've
been out for quite a while okay,unfortunately, that's all we
have time for for this episodeof Behind the Thin Blue Line.
I hope you're enjoying myconversation with Ben Schultz
and telling us his story of howhe got into the police.
Join me next Tuesday for thenext part of this episode and
(36:25):
the next part of this discussionwith Ben.
Hope you have a good day andI'll chat to you then.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode we'll againexplore the human side of
(36:46):
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
(37:09):
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a glint
into something you will likelynever get to experience Uncover
the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me Jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police officer
myself, as we navigate throughthese stories on Behind the Thin
Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest line.
(01:30):
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
Welcome back to part two of myconversation with ben schultz.
Let's get on with thatdiscussion.
What I want to get at, what Iwant to get is so you, you'd had
enough.
You've, you've, you've, uh,you've, you've gone.
Maybe I can change how thingsare happening by entering
politics.
What happened?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
there.
So basically, I mean, if youlook at, northern Territory
Police is a very small policeforce.
There was only I think therewas only 1,200 of us back then.
I mean there was only about1,000, I think when I first
joined.
So I mean I knew.
So you know, to tell you a story, I was at an event in
Borraloola which was I think itwas 150 years since, and the
(02:09):
courts had been in Borraloola,and so it was a big, like you
know, and the commissioner flewdown which was and I will
mention his name, it's RhysKershaw.
He's the commissioner of the FBat the moment and he was our
commissioner at the time.
And so we're sitting there youknow I'm being my usual larrikin
self.
We had court on at the time.
I was a police prosecutor.
(02:29):
So I'm sitting there talking tothe magistrate and you know, or
judge as they're called now,but magistrate and all that sort
of thing, because I was on agood first name basis with a lot
of them because I've beenprosecuting for a while and
anyway the commissioner walksover and he goes.
You always know that the tablewith schultzy on it it's always
the loudest one.
(02:49):
So I mean, you know, if youthink of anybody in the police
force.
There's not many commissionersthat would know somebody's
personality and also their name,you know, just rocking up at an
event.
So we were fortunate in the waythat it was very close, a
community sort of thing, um, andI mean, it doesn't mean that
everybody knew the commissioner.
I was very outspoken, like Isaid, when we took on the police
(03:13):
.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I find that hard to think.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, well, when we took on the police, when my
ex-wife had that drama and allthat sort of thing, I got very
well known.
The police association.
I took them on at the same um,because I had a problem with
them and one against them aswell.
And yeah, and I I also.
They did a promotional videowhen I was out at ramming guinea
trying to get people inrecruiting to go out to these
(03:37):
locations.
So there's a five minute videoon youtube of me out of ramming
guinea policing and they used meas a promotion with two other I
think it was two other stationsthey did it with as well.
So just to try and get so youknow, and if you look at it, it
was funny.
One of the comments was they hadme doing an interview as part
of that that five minute clip.
And anyway it got all sent inand the commission had to look
(03:59):
over it to get approved.
And he looks at it and he goesyou're just going to have to do
the interview again.
I said why is that?
He said the fiber collegeshadow of his beard because he
should be clean shaven.
So they actually flew me backinto darwin.
They actually flew me intodarwin so I could do the
interview in there instead ofout of ramagini, because I'd
already done all the filming so,and you had to make sure you
(04:22):
came with a right yeah, um.
What was funny is I forgot myname badge when I went in there.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
You should just ask a question.
For years I'll just put yourson.
So can you tell me why?
What happened what?
What precipitated you leaving?
What was the story behind youleaving?
How and how long had you beenin the job at that point?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
so I've been in the job for basically close to 10
years when I decided to leaveand then I took basically a
year's leave without pay tobasically just to try and figure
out where I want, just to tryand relax, and I'd I'd been flat
out for by that stage I mean mywhole career, I hadn't stopped.
(05:01):
If an opportunity, opportunitycame up, I went for it and, as
you can see from what I'vetalked about, like my
experiences, it was just, youknow, if there was a job, I did
it and that was probably part ofthe reason why, you know, I
didn't work out with my ex-wifeas well.
You know, if there was a job atBush, I took it.
If the police wanted it, I didit.
(05:22):
It and I gained a lot ofexperience.
But I remember damo uh sayingand so the other half of the
ordinary cop, he said he said anordinary person would be dead.
He said the amount of work youwere doing is phenomenal and I
mean I loved it, I lived the joband but with that kind of the
responsibility or the knowledgeof knowing and I said this
(05:42):
before we got cut off but I hadto justify the job, like every
time you went to an incident.
If you got a complaint, you hadto justify why you made those
decisions, why you did this, whyyou did that.
You know there was so muchpaperwork.
If I want a prisoner flown on aon police air wing, you had to
do a risk assessment about this.
That you know.
Every time something went wrongin the police they created
(06:03):
another piece of paperwork whichyou had then had to fill out.
So you know, for a job thatused to take you half an hour or
who am I kidding a file to takeup, a file that used to take
you, say, two hours to do asimple file you know would take
you four hours to do because ofthe extra bits and pieces of
paperwork you had to fill out.
And these pieces of paperworkwere predominantly put in
(06:27):
because the department didn'thave the right people doing the
job at the time and so anincident had arisen that they
didn't have the qualified peopleto take care of it.
So it was and look, do I blamethe police department?
No, I mean, there's a lot ofmany factors that come into it.
The bosses, I think a lot ofthe trying are trying to do the
best that they can, but you knowit all goes through the
(06:49):
government and all that sort offunding and you know resources
and all that sort of stuff.
And so I thought, well, insteadof trying to keep banging my
head against a brick wall andmoving up through the ranks, why
don't I try and influencepolitics or go into politics to
to try and fix it from the topend?
Now I'm gonna I'm gonna be abit harshy about the way I say
(07:12):
this, but I was always one ofthe first people to sit there
and when I talk about the policeforce and I always said that
they couldn't organize a root ina brothel with a fist full of
50s.
And I'll tell you, but one ofthe funniest things is when I,
when I actually got involved inpolitics.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
It makes the police force look like a willow machine
and I think that's a commonmisconception with um and and
I'll come back to this, but Ithink that's a common
misconception by police andprobably anyone else really, for
that matter that when you, whenyou've got to that point where
you go you know what fuck it I'mleaving you think everything
(07:46):
else is going to be better, thatnothing can be as bad as where
you are.
The way the world is designed,it's just dysfunctional.
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
You know it really opened my eyes up, I suppose you
know when I left, yeah, I justthought, wow, no wonder, no
wonder the poor police force isstruggling and you know, health
and everything and education andall that sort of thing.
When you look at some of themuppets up high, you know, in
the political spectrum, andwhat's a shame is there are some
really good politicians as well, but they've just drowned out
(08:19):
by the idiots, which is such ashame, by by the ideologues,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So how did you go?
Did you get elected?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
No, I basically.
You know I got involved withthe party and I'm still involved
in it now and I always hadplans to run even in this state
election.
But basically I started thepodcast with Damo and that got
very popular and I've always.
The problem with politics isyou're controlled about what you
can say In the podcast.
(08:51):
There's nobody telling Damo andI what we can and cannot do.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Well, you haven't had any lawyers' letters turn up
yet.
Let's put it that way.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
And look, if I did run.
All they'd have to do to findsomething on me is listen to the
podcast.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah, I hear you and it's quite interesting that a
profession like politics, whereit's all supposed to be about
you know you doing things andlooking after the populace and
saying what you mean, and thenyou're not allowed to.
Yeah, kind of like policing,where you're there looking after
(09:26):
the populace, keeping them safe, but you're not allowed to say
what you really think yeah,exactly yeah, that's right.
Yeah, mate, and I think and abit like teaching and all those,
all those sorts of jobs yeah,yeah, I mean, you know what my,
my hat goes off.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
my heart goes out to the paramedics and the people in
health there.
They're doing a very, verytricky job, and teachers too,
like jeez.
I mean I always felt sorry forthe teachers when I was in the
police.
At least we had hours, you know, to do something.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
That's very true.
I bet the only people you don'tfeel sorry for are the fireys,
because they get to sleep 20hours a day.
Mate, your name feels similarto the fireys because they get
to sleep 20 hours a day, Mate.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
look, I'll say this joke.
Why are there police?
Why?
Speaker 1 (10:07):
So fireys can have heroes and I know there are a
couple of fireys that listen toWinston, one of the previous
victims of the fire.
I tell every kid that one mate.
There's a very keen rivalry, soI just want to sort of go off
on a little bit of a tangenthere.
I'll come back to some of theseother things that we've been
talking about.
What did you want to be whenyou were a kid?
(10:28):
I wanted to be a police officer.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
That was my, okay.
So you grew up wanting to be apolice officer because I saw my
uncle and I remember mom and dadlike got some little small
police shirts for me.
I've always I kind of like totouch on something here when I
was growing up I was, I was sortof grew up, uh, an hour north
of bundaberg, a little placecalled berrajonda.
My dad, mom and dad, had a farmout there and I used to go to
(10:50):
school in rosedale and used tobe on the bus, you know, back in
the days when kids caught thebus to school and, um, and
anyway, and I would get bulliedon that bus every day.
I was only a little kid, I'd beon the bus with my brothers,
but my brothers, two olderbrothers, they, yeah, I mean
they, they they're lovely peoplebut they're not, you know, not
tough guys by any stretch of theimagination.
(11:11):
They, they got, you know, bornwith more brains than than, uh,
brawn, so to speak.
And I, anyway, I there was oneday, this, this I was pretty
tough as a kid and I look backnow I was definitely very
resilient and this kid bulliedme every day and my mum had
always taught me ignore them andthey won't keep bullying you
anyway.
(11:32):
I remember this one day on thebus and he was sitting behind me
and he kept on bullying, justsaying stuff, and I just ignored
him, just pretended he wasn'tthere, and he actually punched
me in the back of the head.
He was two years older than meand my head flew forward.
You remember the old seats inthe bus and the steel bars, yeah
, and my head head butted.
That it really hurt.
(11:53):
And I remember back the timewhen I felt like crying but I
didn't, I still didn't react.
I just I sat there and I justdidn't react.
I had tears of my eyes but Iknew you know, not just you know
, just just don't, don't give into him.
You know, don't make him showthat he's he's, he's beating you
down.
And but it was at that stage mynext door neighbor actually
(12:13):
stood up and challenged thebully and said you will not
touch this kid anymore.
And and the bullying stopped asof that day and and I for weeks
I can't remember how long I waspretty young at the time and I
remember weeks after I wouldpretend to be my guardian angel.
You know that guy that stood upand then I reckon it was
(12:34):
probably about a month later,and I remember thinking to
myself why can't I be him, whycan't I be that person that
stands up against the bullies?
And um, and from that dayforward, that's what I've done.
I've been in more fights in mylife for other people than I
have for myself.
So, and all the way througheven that school, all the way
through high school, I went toboarding school here in Brisbane
(12:55):
and, um, you know, that was a,there was a real pecking order
in the boys boarding house, um,and yeah, geez, I have lost
count the amount of fights I'vebeen in just protecting other
people why didn't you join thepolice straight?
away.
I think it took me a long timeto figure out, like my, if you
look at my uh, you know I've gota very low op uh, or very high
(13:17):
op.
Whatever you do, like I was, Iwas basically the bottom of the
of the class, mind you.
Yeah, I was going to a very.
I was lucky enough to go to avery prestigious school where it
was very, very highly rankedand so, of course, I was the
bottom ranked at that school.
Um, you know, I've always beenmore a practical person than a
theoretical.
Um, so and that showed even inthe police college I struggled
(13:41):
with the theory in the policecollege to the point that I
could I couldn't almost passexams.
Then I found my niche and Ifound out how to learn and I
went from like 65% to just about90%, because actually you'll be
able to actually understandthis.
It was a good friend of minesaid to me I was trying to write
everything out and I'm a veryslow writer.
(14:02):
But he said how do you learnstuff when you're in school?
And I said I love doing plays.
And he said, well, learn, play.
So just read it out and learn.
And I did, and I went from 65to 90 in my exams.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So just just by, just by reading and and reciting and
we're probably going off in thetangent here, but one thing
that schools don't do is equippeople kids with understanding
how they learn, because it's allabout here it is on the
blackboard, here it is in apiece of paper, here it is on a
book.
You just learn it.
Where's um?
(14:34):
You know you've got so many.
You were talking about that.
Uh, you wanted to be a policeofficer from childhood, but you
obviously didn't get the op umand you worked out why, I guess,
or how you learn um once yougot to the academy.
Yeah, what did you do after youfinished?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
school.
Well, when I first left school,uh, so I met, um, oh, I suppose
I hooked up with a girlfriend,um, at school and, um, and her
father was a cray fisherman upnorth up in Torres Straits, so
he died for a tropical rocklobster up there.
And so when I left school shehad to go to uni and so she went
(15:14):
to Toowoomba, because that wasclose to me and I'm.
Basically I worked, I've beenworking, in the fruit shop.
My parents didn't have a hellof a lot of money, um, they were
lucky enough to send me to a,to quite a good school, uh, with
a bit of government help andall that sort of thing.
So I used to work a lot infruit stores, um, you know, in
holidays so I was, I used tocall school a holiday, which is
(15:36):
probably reflected in my opschool, um, but I'm a more of a
social sort of person, I suppose, and, um, yeah, so I just I
basically went back to work inthe fruit store and I also
started my own business doinglawn lawn mowing and landscaping
and all that sort of stuff, um,just to, just to try and keep
the money ticking over and in inthose.
(15:57):
Well, it was probably seven.
No, it was probably right up to2007.
I left school in 94, so right upuntil probably the end of the
90s or about 97, um, I used togo, uh, fly up um to uh, torres
straits or thursday island onholidays when it was holiday
time.
And, um and uh, myex-father-in-law used to take me
(16:20):
cray fishing or diving for rocklobster, which kind of freaked
me out when I first did it,because, uh, it's, um, yeah,
it's.
I mean, it's a pretty dangerousprofession and I and I did that
for.
So when she actually finisheduni, I went up there full-time
and worked on the boat.
Um, and got my own boat uh,dinghy, I was a subcontractor
off the boat.
Um, it's, you know, you workabout 100 120 days a year.
(16:43):
Um, you know, the rest of thetime you're just doing stuff on
the boat or going on holidaysand all that sort of thing, so
you need to make sure you earn alot of money.
Um, yeah, so I and I did thatfor a year, right up until about
2006 is when I finished off andum, and then um, and then
basically it was one of thosethings where I invested a whole
(17:05):
lot of more money into mybusiness up there cause I would
doing restrictions and that inthe fishery or go and do
something else, and I'd alreadybroken up with my first wife by
that stage.
So I figured that, um, that, uh,basically it it.
It wasn't good forrelationships going out to, you
know, because you're going outto sea for 120 days a year,
(17:28):
you're not around home much andall that sort of thing.
And towards the end of 2005,I'd met and I was going out with
my next wife to be wife, Isuppose, and she was a teacher
or just started teaching up inPort Douglas.
(17:49):
So basically, when I left her,my dad suggested that you know,
I go over and my uncle suggestedI go to the Northern Territory
Police.
So I put in an application andmy ex-wife now she put in for
teaching over there and got itstraight away and yeah, so we
just moved over and then Istarted in the police.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So yeah, Do you ever get the feeling that you pick
jobs that are anti-marriage?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
I do.
Yes, funnily enough, and Ithink I've said to you, um, I
said to you before, whether onthis or off it, and I've said I
was always a sucker punishment.
I always put a hundred percentinto everything that I did and
placing.
There was no difference, youknow, if they like, I said, I
think before that if I went outbush, if they wanted someone to
(18:40):
go at bush, I went out bush.
I just did everything Ipossibly could to, um, you know
to, because I loved policing.
It was my life, um, and thatobviously reflected in my, in my
marriage as well.
Um, because, yeah, I was.
I was just so involved in the,in the, in the job, um, I loved
it.
I really like policing, wasit's my, my ultimate job.
(19:02):
It always has been, it's in myblood.
That will be the best career Iwill ever have in my life.
So it's, yeah, I really lovedit, and I was born to be a
police officer.
Unfortunately, I think that thepolice force is a structure
(19:23):
these days that isn't reallysuited to my style of policing.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
And we put it that way you were born too late.
Is that what you?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
were saying yes, yes, mate, yeah, definitely I joined
.
When I joined the NewlandTerritory it was like a last
frontier, so they hadn't reallycaught up with the other states
and you were left.
You had a lot of autonomy, yeah, and I really enjoyed being in
control.
I'll actually tell you a funnystory.
This is later on in my career,towards the end, and I had a bit
(19:49):
of a disagreement with one ofmy sergeants over a planned
event.
And anyway, my senior sergeanthe was actually off duty, he was
fishing at the time, but heoverheard the discussion, let's
say.
And anyway, I was walking backup to my house because he was
staying with me out there whenwe were out at Borraloola, and
(20:10):
he goes, what was that?
And I said, oh, just somemiscommunication, and blah, blah
, blah.
Anyway, he goes, ah, he saidshe obviously didn't get the
memo.
I said, what memo?
He said, well, he said to, wetell you what to do and then you
do whatever the fuck you wantanyway.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Um, yeah, I can see that, I can.
I can see the a pattern in thatfrom talking to you at those
sorts of things.
Um, okay, look, talking about,I guess about probably is a good
time to sort of go into whatare some of the more standout
(20:49):
war stories or worries that youhave, that sort of shine the
light on what life's really likeas a copper in the Northern
Territory, I think.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Look, I mentioned one earlier and that was Damo said.
You know when he went to, whenyou're working in indigenous
communities, you can get up to300 people fighting.
I had one memorable one for mewas I think it was around 2014
or 15.
And basically, and what peopleneed to understand, there's
(21:20):
different tribes.
There's so many differenttribes of aboriginals and the
tribes hate each other a lot ofthe time, so they'll have
grievances that go backcenturies.
You know from something thathappened back in the 1800s and
so on and so forth.
So what happened was Elko Islandhad come over to Ramangini and
(21:42):
I can't even remember it wasprobably over two people having
an argument.
That's how these fightsbasically start out and it was
quite big.
It was probably about 300 to500 people and they're just
fighting and it's just happeningall over town and we're going
through, but we could walkthrough as cops and not get
touched.
(22:03):
The fight was between the, thetribes, not between the police.
So, but we got to the stagewhere I I still remember vividly
a guy getting stabbed in frontof me, um, you know, and I had
to grab him and pull him backand get him to the clinic and
all that sort of stuff.
It's um and.
But I mean we were luckybecause their grievance was with
(22:24):
each other, not with us.
But in the end it went on forabout half a day and I was on
the phone to the superiors allthe time and they'd agreed that
they would send TRG, which isour, I think, cert, it's called
here in Queensland and basicallyI yelled out over the top of
(22:44):
them.
I said I'm on the phone to mycommander right now and they
will have, you know, trg outhere within four hours If you
don't stop this fighting.
And the people from Elko Islandhad years or many years ago
there was someone shot when asimilar thing was going on by
people in the TRG.
So they were quite terrified ofthe TRG actually coming out
(23:07):
there and um, so they literallyit stopped instantly and they
got on a plane or boats and wentback to Elko Island.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
So I'm surprised they didn't go four hours.
That gives us another threehours of giving it the time but,
um, you know that that was thatwas.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
There's some pretty intense, um you know, jobs when
you're out there and you'reoutnumbered.
There was only, oh, there wasonly three cops there at the
time.
Um, so you know, there's notreally a lot you can do, you've
just got to manage it the bestyou can.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
So yeah, uh, anything , anything else.
And I'll do this because yougot me to tell a couple of
stories on on your podcast.
So what's a funny type ofincident that's occurred, where
you look back and, yeah, oh mygod, why did I?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
it was.
It was early on and I tell thisone fairly regularly.
It's a.
It's a fairly funny story, um,so we were a good mate of mine,
who's he's still in the police,actually up in Darwin, but I'll
name him.
I named him in our podcast whenI told the story, so I'll name
him here, but Andrew Duggan, andwe call him Duggo, and he was a
(24:16):
squad just after us and we weredriving around one night this
is probably.
We were only pretty fresh inthe police then, like night this
is probably.
We're only, oh, pretty fresh inthe police then, like we would
only be a year or something inpolicing.
And, um, anyway, we're drivingaround east side, catherine, and
Catherine is a very busy townand you get a call.
It's about, I don't know aboutnine or ten o'clock, I think,
(24:37):
and we get this call over theradio you know 481, I think, how
our, um, our car was and theysaid um, can you attend?
Down the main street ofcatherine, we've got a woman
walking towards kalana community.
She's got a six month old inone arm and a machete in the
other and she's walking tokalana to kill her husband, I
don't know.
(24:58):
So, yeah, I mean you've been inthe police before and any
police officer I understandgoing holy shit, how do you
handle this one.
And so, anyway, the funny thingdown and you know what we
always do is risk assess when wego into these jobs, yep, so
we're going down there and Isaid to Doug, I turned to him, I
said mate, how are we going todo this?
Like, how are we going to?
(25:18):
He goes, well, he said you'vegot the taser, you taser her and
I'll catch the baby.
Anyway, that was our riskassessment when we got there.
Good plan, yeah, great planning.
So anyway, so we get down there,and by the time we get down
there, she's actually crossingthe high-level bridge, which is
(25:40):
just to the north of Catherine,heading up towards Darwin, and
so we pull up on the bridge.
Now you've got to think theStuart Highway.
It's a big highway, it's themain thoroughfare from Darwin
right down to, basically,adelaide.
So there's a lot of trafficgoing to and forth and we've
actually cut the traffic off.
(26:00):
She's walking on the pedestrianpart of the bridge and so Dago
has gone around and run over andum, and actually jumped over
and, and you know, trying totalk to her, he's standing about
10 meters back.
Luckily somebody's alreadytaken the kid off her, so she
hasn't got the six month old.
So, yeah, our risk assessmentwas out the window, um, but we
could go with the rest of it andum, and anyway, so we're.
(26:24):
So he's trying to talk to her,trying to calm her down and all
this sort of stuff, and justkeep his distance and trying to,
yeah, just trying to get her toput the machete down and all
that sort of thing.
And I was walking up on adiagonal from behind her, so I
was at a 45 degree coming upbehind her and she had a
backpack on as well andbasically I had the taser out
(26:45):
and drawn and um, and ready toshoot, um, anyway, she's
basically got the shits in theend with whatever dugo was
saying, and she's lifted likethe machete up and she did.
She said if you're not gonnafucking help me then and he just
turned to me, dugo, calm, asanything, he goes, light her up,
schultzy.
So it wasn't.
Yeah, there's none of this,deploy the taser or any crap
(27:07):
like that.
It was lighter up, it waslighter up, yeah, anyway.
So I fired the taser and anybodythat understands tasers where
your dot is which, you've got ared dot.
That's where the first barbgoes and it shoots straight and
it hits the other barb goes on a45 degree diagonal, like down.
So you've got to try and you'vegot to be like it's perfect if
(27:31):
you're front on or back on whenyou're a little bit to the side.
However, you've got to bereally accurate, because the
barb, the second barb, will miss, and that's what happened.
So she, though, in thatinstance, that instant she got
hit, she thought she'd been shot, because it hits with quite an
impact, those little barbs, yepand um, and she's dropped the
machete.
However, me, I've sitting theregoing, oh shit, I've stuffed up
(27:56):
.
But I didn't turn the taser offbefore because we've got spare
cartridges.
So I actually grabbed thecartridge while it was still
cycling to take it off and Itasered myself.
Um, so I got zapped in front of50 people, 50 onlookers, um, I
actually tasered myself that'shilarious.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I um, I left just before we got tasers.
Um, and one of the things thatI was probably glad was that
when we got given um pepperspray, you actually had to, you
know, be sprayed, so you knewwhat it was like.
So that way then when youdeployed it, you knew what
effect you were having on thepeople you were deploying it on.
(28:38):
Um, thankfully, uh, I'd leftjust as tasers were being
deployed.
So I, touch wood, have neverbeen tasered and I'm pretty sure
that's a good thing.
Yeah, just quietly.
Yeah, I've been with you.
Get to enough issues withpepper spray.
I've been, you know, standingbehind someone and doing a at
(29:03):
the time, legal lateral vascularrestraint, yep.
A week later, not so yeah, andsomeone goes oh, I'll just spray
them, and you know, stupidmoves his head and you cop the
full force of the spray and thatsort of stuff.
So I can imagine what it wouldbe like with a taser.
I'd be changing what are theycalled Police pants all the time
.
I'd probably wet myself eachtime I with a taser I'd be
(29:24):
changing what are they calledPolice pants all the time.
I probably wet myself each timeI get a taser.
What I want to do is sort of goa little bit into.
One of the things that I talkabout in this podcast is PTSD,
and some of the effects thatI've had is PTSD, and some of
the effects that I've had andbecause I've been out for such a
(29:45):
longer time, you tend to noticeit more than when you just
leave.
Yeah, what about you?
Because you didn't go instraight from a young age, you
did other things, you had lifeexperience.
Yeah, do you feel that you haveany signs of PTSD?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, I definitely do , damo and I, like we.
I think part of the reason thatI survived, like even going
through the police and beingreasonably sane and healthy, was
because, basically, damo, hewas like we were inseparable,
like always talking catch up.
If we had a problem, likesomething happened in the police
(30:24):
, we'd just discuss it.
And you know it's a burden, youknow, spread across two
shoulders.
You're carrying half the weight, yep, and I'll touch on
something that's basically.
I mean, this is, and youprobably know it as well, when
you go further on in your career, you become a little bit
complacent, to a sense, or alittle bit, you'd like.
(30:46):
It doesn't excite you as muchlike the jobs and I'll yeah,
I'll touch on.
So there was one when I was inborough law this, my last year
in the police and this guy, thismental guy, was carrying on and
he um, yeah, we got caught upthere.
He's mentally ill, he's goingoff.
The family are terrified fromhim, he'd like he's threatening
(31:08):
them with weapons and all thatsort of stuff.
And anyway, I'm usually quitegood at chatting to people.
I can talk them into the cage,I'd.
You know I don't like usingforce, but I will if it's
necessary and all that sort ofthing.
I mean, I'd rocked up my pepperspray on my belt, hadn't had
pepper spray in it for aboutthree years, like I always use
the Party Packs, which is theMark 9, like it's a little fire
(31:28):
extinguisher and I didn't havethe taser on, but my partner,
she had the taser and she hadthe Mark 9.
And anyway, so we're there andI'm trying to chat to him and he
basically gets the shits and hethrows a milk crate at me, you
know, and I deflect it.
We're a good 15 meters away andI deflect it and anyway I kind
(31:51):
of thought, uh, I'm not going tobe able to talk this guy down,
he's just obviously, you know,he's off with the fairies and
whichever land he's on, and andI think we're going to have to
step this up a notch, and uh,anyway, so I turned to my
partner.
I said, look, you give me thetaser, you hold the pepper spray
.
So I clipped it on my belt andI was still talking to him and
about probably a couple ofminutes later he obviously
(32:14):
really got the shits that thisconversation wasn't going the
way he wanted to, and he pickedup a tire and a screwdriver and
basically bolted towards me andthe whole family took off at the
front of off, at the front gateof the house.
My partner, she, ran with them.
Anyway, I took a step back andI've gone, I've pulled the taser
(32:39):
up, I've pulled it out and I'vehit him absolutely.
It was textbook, absolutelytextbook, and his head to the
point that the taser hit himperfectly.
His head landed at my feet, sothat's how close he was.
And then I've just turned to mypartner.
I said do you want to get backin here?
I said, cuff him.
And uh, so she's walked in andcuff him.
I said I'm going to call theclinic because we've got to get
(33:01):
him assessed and you know, we'vegot to get these barbs out.
We pulled the barbs out, um andum, and you know, and then I
said all right, we'll take himto the cage.
I was on the phone to theclinic and anyway, we put him in
the cage.
You know people don't usuallyfight after they've been tased,
that they're usually prettypretty.
Uh, compliant, yep, um, andI'll comply, yeah, and so we.
(33:23):
So we walked, we put him in theback of the cage and walking to
the I was walking to likebecause I was driving I was
sitting there thinking there'sno adrenaline, there's nothing,
there is nothing at all in mysystem.
I am calm as anything.
Anyway, I sat in the front seatand my partner, she got in
beside me and she turned to meand she goes that has got to be
the calmest I've seen anybody ina high risk, like you, you know
(33:45):
environment.
She goes you didn't even likethere was no flutter, there was
no you know, um shaking, there'snothing.
And I was sitting there goingshit, there's something wrong
with me, there's somethingseriously wrong with me.
Anyway, so I went down, Ichecked my Apple watch after my
heart hadn't heartbeat, had notskipped a beat.
It was exactly the same, it waslevel, it was just, it was just
(34:08):
like it was, you know, a sundaymorning, having breakfast, and
um, yeah, anyway, I, a couple ofweeks later, I actually caught
up with dame.
I was up in darlin for somethingand I said you want to come and
have a beer?
And I told him about it and Isaid, mate, I think there's
something seriously wrong withme.
I said I should be reacting tothis stuff and I'm not.
And he just turned to me and hegoes it's the same for me.
And um, you know, and that thatto me I was gone, oh shit, all
(34:31):
right.
So other people actually it'snot just me, because I thought I
was mentally ill or something,you know, and I think that's
it's part of the you.
You see so much trauma, uh, inyour career as a police officer,
um, that you becomedesensitized to a certain extent
and it's just all normal, youknow, run-of-the-mill sort of
(34:54):
work you're doing, and I thinkthe problem is, though,
afterwards.
So to talk about the PTSD, Iremember when I first left the
police and I went to a NewYear's Eve celebration and I
couldn't relax.
I was sitting there looking forpeople, you know, trying to
(35:16):
sabotage, like, blow up thisbridge, and all that sort of
thing.
I was just my partner.
Who's my partner now?
Miriam, she's absolutelybeautiful and she was looking at
me and she goes holy.
You're just on edge, and I was,because I was just worried.
You've got a few thousand peopleat this celebration.
There's a bridge.
This is a perfect example.
Somebody could bloody blow itup and kill a hundred people or
(35:36):
a thousand people if they wantedto, and you still get.
And you get the heart races forthat, like you know, your heart
rate goes up, you get thechills.
You'll suddenly heart rate goesup.
Um, you, you get the chills.
You you'll suddenly go intothis zone where you think
something's going to happen.
Um, yeah, so it just it.
And I think the more I've beenout what seven years now the the
(35:58):
longer it goes on.
It doesn't really diminish much.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Um, you can probably comment on that because you've
been out for quite a while okay,unfortunately, that's all we
have time for for this episodeof Behind the Thin Blue Line.
I hope you're enjoying myconversation with Ben Schultz
and telling us his story of howhe got into the police.
Join me next Tuesday for thenext part of this episode and
(36:25):
the next part of this discussionwith Ben.
Hope you have a good day andI'll chat to you then.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode we'll againexplore the human side of
(36:46):
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
(37:09):
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.