September 2, 2024 • 40 mins
Have you ever wondered how a young man, with aspiration to be a fighter pilot, ends up serving as a police officer on the gritty streets of Victoria? Join me, Jason Somerville, as I sit down with former Victorian police officer Mark Battersby to unravel his fascinating journey. From the tender age of 19, Mark traded his father's vocation dreams for the unpredictable and often perilous life on the front lines of law enforcement. With candid reflections, Mark shares the mixed emotions from his family, the camaraderie within the force, and the evolution of policing tools and tactics that have transformed the role of officers over the years.
Experience the complexities of modern-day policing as we explore the relentless paperwork, the hierarchical dynamics, and the escalation of risks faced by today's officers. Mark provides a raw and insightful look into the pressures of decision-making under duress and the psychological toll that comes with the job. We delve into heart-pounding moments like tense hostage situations, where discretion and negotiation skills are paramount, and discuss the shift from practical, hands-on training to a more academic approach in police education.
In our conversation with Mark, we don't shy away from the harsh realities of a career in law enforcement, including his personal battle with PTSD. Learn about the constant vigilance that former officers carry with them, even post-retirement, and the critical need for better support systems tailored for mental health recovery. From the emotional challenges of maintaining one's identity outside the force to the importance of peer support and proper transition programs, Mark's story is a powerful testament to the resilience and dedication of those who serve. Stay tuned for our next episode, where we continue to explore Mark's life and the valuable insights he's gained since leaving the force.
If you are interested in contacting the First Responders Support Group in Melbourne that Mark spoke about, details are here - www.tjf.au.
Counselling service mentioned by Mark has a web site at www.redefinelife.com.au and Mark's number is 0400 212 284.
And remember if this podcast has caused anxiety or triggered you in anyway, please reach out to someone and talk.
Please be sure to Subscribe to and Follow the Podcast so you never miss an Episode and if you like what you are hearing then please "Like" the episode and podcast on your favourite podcast app.
If you would like to be involved in a "Whisper In The Shadows" Podcast through talking about your experiences as an current or former Police/Law Enforcement Officer or tell your stories then I'd love to hear from you.
I can be contacted on my socials below -
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
(01:29):
Welcome to Behind the Thin BlueLine a Whisper in the Shadows
podcast, where I explore thehuman side of policing and law
enforcement.
I hope you're enjoying ourconversations with former and
current police officers as Idelve into the complexity of
policing and how it affects thehuman side of police.
As a person, I'm JasonSomerville and I was a
Queensland police officer fornearly 14 years, as well as
working undercover for over twoof those years.
Hopefully you've been listeningto my stories of my time
(01:52):
undercover through my alter ego,michael Bates.
Well, I've decided it's time weheard from other police and let
them tell their stories.
Today I'm chatting with MarkBattersby, who is a former
Victorian police officer.
Good afternoon, mark.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
G'day, I'm very well.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Jason, that's good.
Thank you for agreeing to jointhe podcast and for agreeing to
have a chat about your policingexperiences, yep no worries.
Now, what I generally like todo is start off, I guess, with a
little bit of a background inregards to when you were a
police officer, how long you didit for, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah well, I joined in 1981 into the Police Academy
in Victoria at the tender age of19.
And yeah look, I could sayvarious things, I suppose.
Just a quick intro at themoment I did 15 years, nearly 15
years.
I was mostly on the front lineof general duties, as we called
(02:51):
it divvy vans, watch houses, etcetera.
I did spend a short time thepolice air wing.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
There's a story there , but anyway.
So that's sort of a very, verybrief intro to the policing side
of my life, I suppose.
No, that's sort of a very, verybrief intro to the policing
side of my life, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
No, that's okay.
Was it mainly metropolitan, ordid you do country work as well?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I did some country.
Yeah, not far out of Melbourneit would be classless country
for a couple of years.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
yeah, yeah, okay Now.
How did you become a policeofficer?
What was the process alongthere?
Did you always want to be apolice officer when you were
growing up?
What did you become a policeofficer?
What was the process alongthere?
Like, did you always want to bea police officer when you were
growing up?
What did you want to be whenyou were growing up?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, I think actually I wanted to be a
fighter pilot.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
That's very unusual for a young man.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
So I did actually have an interview with the Air
Force prior to the police, but Ireally want, and that wasn't
successful at that time I wasvery young but I was playing
football, basically footy, downhere in Melbourne, yep, and
there was probably half a dozenyoung guys that hadn't been in
the police force for long and wegot on pretty well.
(03:57):
I liked their company andplaying footy and having beers
with them and talking to themand they'd talk about what they
were doing and I thought, well,that sounds a bit more exciting
than doing uni lectures that Iwas doing in an engineering
degree at the time.
So, yeah, I applied and therest is history with that.
Now got in and away, we wentwhat?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
what engineering were you doing electrical and
communications and what was theplan?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
well, uh, there was a pathway mapped out.
Actually my father was fairlyhigh up in Telstra, yep, and so
I was always good at mathematicsand that sort of thing.
So I suppose I was steered intothat to end up at Telstra and
have a big career there.
But the two problems of that,the two main problems, is my
father was there, yeah, and thesecond problem was that I wanted
(04:44):
a little bit more, something abit more.
You know, people orientated, Ithink and the well.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
You couldn't get much more people orientated than
policing.
Did that cause any issues?
Did you, did your father?
Was he happy that you youjoined the police and didn't
follow him in his footsteps?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
no, no, my family weren't happy at all.
Don't like the colour blue.
Oh, I just think they thoughtfor me it wasn't.
You know, it was a bit sort ofunder standard or under par for
me as a person, if you like.
Not quite the right fit, butyou know, whatever they hadn't
had a lot to.
(05:21):
You know, I don't have anypolice in the family and, as I
said, I got to know whatpolicing was about to a certain
extent through playing footywith these bikes.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Did they eventually warm to it?
Not?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
really, not really.
I think the only one thatreally supported me was my
mother, you know, she thought,oh no, he'll be right, but look
I was.
I think the only one thatreally supported me was my
mother, you know.
Yeah, she thought, oh no, he'llbe right, but look, I was only
19,.
You know, and I think you know,they just saw me as a school
kid, you know.
Well, yeah, what the heck is hegoing into this job?
For you know.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
I mean, I did it at 21, and I'm pretty sure my
parents still thought of me as aschool kid too.
Mind you, I did look like one,so talk to me a little bit about
your journey.
So you've gone into the police.
How long was the academy atthat stage?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I think about six months.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, yeah, and then you were probationary for 12
months.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, two years, I think in total Two years.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Okay, you were probationary for 12 months, yeah
, two years I think in totalyears, okay, and where do you
able to say, or do you feel likeyou want to say, where that,
where you were stationed, whatparts of of?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Mel, oh yeah, I can give you where I was names, the
bosses that I hated, all therest of, whatever you want.
So what areas did you work in?
I will tell you.
But I think this is a key to myrecovery, that I'm very honest,
yep, with myself and I've hadto go through, uh, 12-step
(06:55):
addiction programs to thealcohol and all the rest of it.
And the only way to really getthrough and recover with, you
know, have a strong recoveries,to be honest, but, anyway, um,
yeah, look, I was in the cityfor a while.
I did a training station out inthe outer east.
Um, uh, yeah, in the city, Imean just to go through that, uh
(07:17):
, without getting into whathappened there or didn't or the
rest of it.
Yeah, um, all right, so I endedup going to hawthorne, I think
I don't know whether you knowwhere these places are.
Yeah, you know, I've lived inMelbourne, so I've got a fair
idea For a couple of years andthen I got it in my head Look
well, basically it was like youknow, young bloke, you know
there's all these opportunitiesin this sort of job, I'm going
(07:38):
to go for it, you know.
So I ended up applying for afew things and I got the air
wing, the police air wing Nowthey're going into it too much
at the moment.
But unfortunately my alcoholismwas roaring.
I didn't really realise that.
I'm sure some people must haveknown and I ended up drinking on
a training exercise, so gettingviolently drunk, not violently
(07:59):
drunk, very drunk.
And there's a story of all that.
And of of course they decidedit wasn't good to have on-call
police air wing people, you know, pissed at home.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Did you actually have a pilot's licence?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
No, no, so I was trained to be an air observer.
I think they called it.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So, air crew, you know learning how to do rescues
and searches.
That sort of thing was probablymore prominent then than actual
police work.
I think they do.
They've merged into more of theyou know tracking cars around
and that sort of stuff than theydid then so was that?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
was that a helicopter or was that fixed wing back in
those days?
Yeah, helicopter, mainlyhelicopter.
Okay, fair enough.
I um one of the joys of, Iguess, my policing experience
wasn't actually me working, butbecause I was a police officer,
when I was in LA I got to do ashift, an eight hour shift with
(08:55):
a helicopter crew in LA and oneof the police forces there and
that was eye opening.
That was really, really eyeopening to the point where we
were actually getting shot at.
They said don't worry, we're alittle bit too high.
They do a lot of shooting overthere.
They do, yes, at each other andat police.
All right so.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
So just to round that out, so I ended up out at my
last few years or so.
I was out at a station calledmural bark, yes, and that's
where a bit of country came in.
I was seconded to a linda up inthe hills for a couple of years
.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Okay, that was yeah, what did you enjoy about
policing?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
well, I always enjoyed.
I went in basically to save theworld, as you do, and, young
men, we can do anything.
We're fit, strong.
It was great to run down crooks.
It was good to be.
I really liked the fact thatthe general duties, as they call
it, which really underplaysreally what it is in my mind.
(09:59):
So you're out in a divvy van,you get the call, you know
somebody's stabbing someone ortrying to on the street and
you're the men to go and keepthe peace.
You know, grab the crooks,throw them in the divvy van and
you know, give everyone a bigkiss and a hug and then go and
(10:19):
do all the paperwork, which noone wanted to do, of course.
Well, I didn't want to do it.
It's quite capable.
No, no one wanted to do, ofcourse, well, I didn't want to
do it.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
It's quite capable.
No one ever wanted to dopaperwork.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
No Well, on reflection, you know how stupid
is it.
I mean, probably half the timeyou're doing paperwork.
I mean that's not what you'rethere for.
And I've spoken to some femalefriends of mine that weren't in
the job, but they said you know,we'd have been quite happy to
have the role We'd be hired.
We'd be at the station you comein, dump your crooks off and
all that, and they'd do thepaperwork.
(10:50):
I mean, that's a very simple,simple view of it, but you know.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
There are ways that I'm sure they could do.
Yeah, you're right.
Probably about 50% of your timeis spent doing paperwork for
you know the other 50% of timeof dealing with dead shits.
Basically, I was going to askyou something in regards to that
.
Oh, so back in those days thatwould have been before we had
(11:19):
things like capsicum spray andtasers and that sort of stuff as
well, so it just would havebeen a baton in your wit to try
and calm some of these peopledown, headlocked down on the
ground, handcuffs.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It was pretty urgent.
Most of the time there wasusually a bit of talking
beforehand.
If they responded to a bit oftalking, then that's okay.
If they don't bang, you know,and that's.
I really feel really sorry forthem these days because they've
got so much shit on their beltand everything.
I don't know how they walk.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
It's very hard to sit in a police car, that's for
sure.
Especially when you've got alittle 5'3", 40kg female who has
to put all that stuff on herbelt.
That's why they've gone to thevests now, so they can get some
of that stuff off their belts.
All right, so did you stay atConstable the whole way through?
(12:12):
Did you get?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
promoted.
I was a senior, I tookpromotion, did exams for senior
Connie and, quite frankly, theway I viewed it, I saw yeah,
sergeant, may have been aconsideration, but really after
that you know they're allwankers and just trying to chop
each other's heads off to get tothe top.
And I joined the job to be acopper, not a management person
(12:34):
or whatever, not a corporateclimber other's heads off to get
to the top.
And I joined the job to be acopper, not a you know, not a I
don't know management person orwhatever not a corporate climber
.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Um, so that would have, and you know, depending on
where you are in queensland, ifyou're a senior connie, you get
this some managerial roles.
I mean, there was, you know,some stations, whereas the
senior connie you were the, theofficer in charge, whereas other
stations it was a sergeant.
Did it work the same way whereyou were?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, correct.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, when I wasin the country sometimes I'd be
on my own, yeah Well, probablyhalf the time, whether it be day
shift or some of the eveningshifts.
We tried to pair up on theevening shifts, yep, but
basically, yeah, senior Connieis an unsung leader in the field
(13:22):
.
Really Everybody looks to youwhen the shit hits the fan,
because they're all very junior,yep, that's right.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And when it doesn't go right, everyone up above you
tends to back down the hill, yep.
So just talking about the factthat you know you worked one up
a lot and and that sort of thing.
Obviously, we didn't have thenews cycles when I was uh in in
(13:50):
the police, and so you wouldn'thave had them.
Newbies, I was 10 years afteryou.
Uh, do you think that it's moredangerous today to be a police
officer and and you know there'sa there's more requirement for
people to work two up ratherthan than the ability to work
(14:11):
one up, um, or do you thinkthat's a a figment of the
24-hour news cycle?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
There might have been a couple of questions there,
but I think you're asking do youthink it's more dangerous now?
Just full stop.
Yeah, I think it's a loadedquestion in a lot of ways.
I would say yes, but I wouldsay the main reason for that is
because they're so worried abouthealth and safety and
(14:38):
everything that they've riskedmanaging themselves out of a job
basically not the rank and file.
We're talking about themanagement and the way they
manage.
They just don't seem to be ableto.
In my day it was quite evident,the way we were trained and
everything, that if you had ahead on your shoulders once you
(14:59):
got your experience, you'reallowed to use discretion.
You know that's what Mark says,and what Mark says goes,
because he's been taken awaythese days.
Oh, yeah, oh, absolutely.
You can see that, yeah, andyeah it must be.
Well, it is excruciatingbecause I talk to plenty that
have got out over the lastlittle while, because I'm part
(15:20):
of a group that meet everyfortnight here for support,
because it's just the PTSD andthe ramifications that are
rampant, yep, and so I help outwith that.
I actually work as a counsellornow.
We'll talk more about thatlater.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I want to touch on that.
I want to come back to thatbecause the discussions that
we've had offline.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I was very good, actually, I'm very verbose and
very good at connecting withpeople.
So most of the time, even if itwas a gunpoint, I'd make a
connection and resolve thesituation.
Everybody gets to live, butthere's not a lot of coppers
full stop that have thatattitude.
You know they just I think alot now probably I hesitate to
(16:08):
say this, but there might be abetter way, but never mind, they
don't quite have the brainpowerNow.
Maybe it's more to do with thetraining.
Like it's a higher level, ahigher level of thinking, to
walk into a situation.
There's somebody that's quiteoff their nut, obviously you
know.
One I was just thinking of iswhere this fella.
He was in a unit He'd lockedhimself in, he'd pulled petrol
(16:30):
over himself and over the headof a woman who was there
standing beside him.
And I got to probably about 10,15, 20 minutes in.
I had him released the hostagejust by talking to him and, um,
yeah, had him isolated and uh,there was a lot of other coppers
there.
But to cut a long story short,in the end, um, I told the boss
(16:51):
what I was going to do.
He didn't like it, in fact, hedidn't want me to do it
initially, which was to take mygun off, which I did, and I've
done it before, I've done thisbefore.
This is not bullshit.
Yeah, and the other fellas thatsee me do it, before they took
their gun off, I handpicked twoor three others and we went.
Of course, we grabbed him in theend when we got close.
(17:11):
Yeah, him in the end when wegot close, yeah, but the boss,
he said well, you know, you'renot, certainly not going to get
any medals or anything, mark,because my write-up will be
nothing like what happened.
And this is, you know, this isthe honesty of the that happens
in those organizations.
I'm sure it hasn't got anybetter.
That you know.
Really, the people you knowinspector and above or whatever
they are, you've got on therethey're about their own ass,
(17:33):
they're about their ownself-importance.
They have no concern at all forthe welfare of the people
underneath them no, and they'regenerally speaking.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You know, and, and you know that that rings true
with with the people I've spokento.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
So look what I did you know, when I relay this, I
mean I get comments of people,like you know, fairly high up in
counselingselling psychologyand they say, well, that's very
brave, but you know, noteverybody's capable of doing
that and I accept that.
I accept that.
But you know, again, I make thecall, hey.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I made the call.
That's right, but I was justgoing to circle back to a point
you made where you said that youknow the brain power or the
high function you need to use toto be able to make those
decisions and be able to talkpeople down.
Do you think it's a fact thatthat they don't have it?
Or do you think it's a factthat they haven't been trained
(18:28):
to use it?
Because I know, when I wentthrough and I was one of the
first 400 after the Fitzgeraldinquiry, so you know, we were
taught all these wonderfuluniversity things, but one of
the things we were taught washow to make decisions on our own
and we were given trainingalong the lines of if someone
(18:50):
was trying to commit suicide,then you know trigger words, not
, not what, not to say what youcan say trying to talk people
down, that sort of stuff.
I don't actually know ifthey're taught those sorts of
things in today's day and age,because at school and at
university now you're taught.
(19:11):
Remember this, remember thisit's going to be in your test
remember this it's not as a freethinking yeah, it's not a free
thinking, uh education anymore,and we're getting people from
universities going to policingnow, because that's what makes
policing professional yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So, um, an interesting experience, hey, um.
But you know, as far as thedanger, I think that it's just
as dangerous.
I mean, I dealt with people.
Uh, they might not have been onice, but they're on something
else.
Yeah, there's certainly plentyof alcohol around and weapons
and all that sort of stuff, but,um, I mean, that was one
(19:54):
example, but there were plentyof other times when you did nip
it in the bud pretty early,because you have a few of good
strong fellas overpoweringpeople, you know.
And that's where I said look,I've got two daughters and a
wife.
I love women, but you know,they shouldn't be on the front
line, they shouldn't be on adivvy van.
It's just crazy, absolutelycrazy.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Fair enough.
I know quite a few femalecoppers that would disagree with
that.
I know quite a few.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
I'm sure they might disagree.
They don't have the strength.
They don't have the physicalstrength, they just don't.
They might be the odd one outof one in a million, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Fair enough Now.
So 15 years.
So mid-90s would have been whenyou finally pulled the pin.
Yeah, yeah, about 96.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
mid 90s would have been when you finally pulled the
pin.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, so that early 90s period there was very much a
shift in, I guess, from outsideand from police in the other
states.
Because I'd just been sworn in.
I actually did an undercoverjob based with Victorian, so I
went and spent just been swornin.
I actually did an undercoverjob based with victorian, so
victorian crims, so I went andspent some time in victoria and
(21:04):
and with the homicide squad.
Um, it seemed to very, verymuch a shoot first, ask
questions later, type thing inthe in the early 90s I think
it's an individual thing.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I had a mindset where I told myself I had the
conversation with myself thateveryone lives.
Mark goes somewhere andeveryone lives.
So, with that goal in mind,that's what I did.
I'd do everything I could, butstill maintaining my own safety
and that of others, obviously.
(21:41):
And so, you know, I just foundthat, unless you had the worst,
worst narcissistic crook you'dimagine and I had, obviously you
can make a connection withpeople.
They're not really feeding you.
So, mate, if you don't put thatgun down, I'm coming across to
fucking grab it out of yourhands, you know.
And so it's all psychology,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
It is.
But I guess in that particularpart of history, if you want to
call it that, there were a lotof crims in Melbourne that were
prepared to shoot you even ifyou did try and come and take it
out of their hands.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, there probably wasn't as many as purported.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I don't think, but anyway, and that's sort of where
I was getting to with thatquestion.
Was that a particularly violenttime, with people who didn't
respect police in the criminal?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Well, we obviously had the bombing and the
execution of the two from WallStreet, which were pretty close
together, Yep, and thatdefinitely affected well at all
levels, but particularly ifyou're out on a divvy van, you
suddenly approached calls thatwould have been almost benign
prior as pretty high level risk.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
What sort of impact does that have on you personally
?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
well, I think it's what policing does anyway.
I mean, eventually, you knowyou're on high alert 24 7 you
you never come down.
You know some, there's alwayssomebody somewhere that's trying
to get you do you still havethat.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Hyper not sensitivity is probably not the right word,
but uh, hyper awareness,hypervigilance, vigilance,
rather, I don't thinkhypervigilance, from my
understanding, is where youvirtually don't sleep much and
that sort of thing, whereas Ihave.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I sleep like a baby I'm, in fact, better than a baby
, probably now.
I do have my seven, eight hourssleep, and it's just.
That's non-negotiable.
The world can go bye-byes untilI wake up for breakfast, but
it's taken me a while to get tothat.
You know, taken me a while toget to that, but what you're
talking about is still there.
In fact, there's an examplejust today.
You know, I'm driving down theroad and it's very windy here in
(23:58):
Melbourne and I'm noticing allthis debris everywhere.
And then I look up because I'mlooking at trees and things, you
know, yep, and I see thisbranch has straddled a power
line, and then I see power linesdown and people are just
streaming past, you know,streaming past.
I mean this is a very dangeroussituation, you know.
(24:18):
So I call it in, in.
I didn't do much more and thefire brigade turned up and blah,
blah, blah so I guess what I'msaying is that and you might
have this as well, I'm sure youdo but, um, I notice things out
and about that.
You know the average personjust doesn't see, or if they see
something, I don't know whatthey're looking at.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
You know that sort of stuff do you find yourself
looking around more?
And this is a question, uh,that, um, when I drive, I'll,
I'll.
It's like I'm still in a policecar and you're looking at
everything that's going on.
I still look as I drive past, Istill look at cars to see what
the driver's like or who's inthe passenger seat, and that
sort of thing, and I'm doing itsubconsciously who's in?
(24:56):
The passenger seat.
Yeah, and I'm doing itsubconsciously, mm, do you?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
still have that sort of reaction.
There might be a subconscious,but I think mine's conscious a
lot of the time, you know you,just I'm happy with that because
it's not going to go away and Ithink it's actually a good
thing, you know.
Oh so do I.
I agree the safety of othersand yourself, your family.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
It was just brought up to me the other day that I do
it a lot.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
You've got to be careful, you know, but I'm not
an idiot.
So I've actually followed carsdown the street that have been
all over the place, but they'regoing at a slow speed.
And when I've got through andbeen talking to the copper at
D24, I introduce myself, so theyknow who I am and the
observations they go yeah,that's fair enough.
And I said, listen, if theytake off, mate, I'm in my
(25:46):
private car, my Mazda.
I'm not following them.
You know I'm not following atspeed, so I'm not.
You know, I have been there andwe'll probably get into that
later of how I was reallyaffected and there was a time
when, um well, I was a madman.
I was a madman for a few years,for sure I'll come to that.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
So so you've done 15 years, you've.
You've got to senior connie, uh, all in uniform.
So mostly in uniform, yeah yep,so what prompted you to leave?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
what prompted you to leave?
Well, I couldn't get out of bed.
I was so badly PTSD withdepression and everything which
they didn't call it PTSD then.
They just called it job stress.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Well, that's what the GP called it.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
And so I was bullied to resign actually basically
came to me on my deathbed, ifyou like, or sickbed, and said
you need to, you need to resign,son, you know, and if you, if
you, if you don't, we'll, we'llfight you at court on the uh,
you know, on the compensation orwhat.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
So I had some real assholes, yeah I do, I and look,
I appreciate this is sensitiveto you and personal to you, but
can you go into that?
Do you feel like going intothat a little bit more?
Are you able to go into that alittle bit more?
In regards to how did you getto that point of I don't want to
get out of bed?
I'm assuming was it at home,was it in hospital?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
No, no, it was at home yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
When you were at home .
Speaker 2 (27:18):
How did you get to that point?
No, no, it was the same.
Yeah, yeah, when you were athome.
Well, I believe, on reflectionnow, that 18 months into the job
, I went to a fatal involving atwo-year-old girl.
Yeah, and the other thing thathappened with that, I was with a
partner, but I was right in thecentre of the CBD in Melbourne,
working out of Russell Street,and the D24 operator was calling
(27:39):
for backup and not one personcame back to give us any support
.
And they would have been thereand they were in the city.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Was there a debrief about it afterwards and was
there a reason for it?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, plenty of piss.
No, no such thing as a debrief,then.
No such thing.
As I said, there was absolutelyno concern for the welfare of
the individual officers.
Whatever you went to.
Yeah, there might have been theodd sergeant around that took a
bit of interest, but usuallynot really, and so, but I
(28:17):
mentioned that because I believethat was the start of my PTSD.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Now, looking back, so you said that was 18 months in,
so you've carried that for 15,14 years yeah and everything
else, and I'm sure I'm not theonly couple that does that.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Oh no, it sort of culminated in, eventually, if
you like, the one that reallydid it all was an internal thing
.
And you know, look, I wasdrinking on duty.
Eventually I was stuffed, youknow, and any opportunity that
came up that's what I was doing.
(28:51):
So I'm not going to go into allthat right now, but basically I
was charged with drinking onduty and the other fellow there
after him for some other thingsas well apparently.
But anyway, but eventually,about 1 o'clock in the morning,
we pulled up this bloke becausehe just about ran into us with
his lights off and what so ever,and yeah, I ended up with.
(29:15):
I just wanted to.
I was just going to do a breathtest but I ended up rolling
around the roadway with thisprick and he had his hand on my
gun butt and he was trying toget my gun out of the holster.
So the only thing oh, that wasanother one like a support, my
partner there.
I don't know why he wouldn'tcome and help me, but he
(29:37):
wouldn't.
He got on the radio.
And I don't know why hewouldn't come and help me but he
wouldn't.
He got on the radio.
I don't know why he bothereddoing that, because we're in the
middle of nowhere, but anyway,yeah.
So I just had to belt the hellout of this bloke.
Fortunately I am pretty strongand once I get going, there's no
stopping me.
So I just bashed him in thehead until he took his hand off
the gun.
(29:59):
But that sort of did it in.
As much as I'm going.
This is.
You know, I've got a youngfamily.
This is bullshit, you know,I've had enough of this stuff,
you know.
But with that it's not thateasy, because you know, that's
all I knew since I was 19.
So what am I going to do tofeed my family?
You know?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
And that's very true.
So from that point to whenthey've come to you and said you
know, don't fight us, you'reresigning.
Did you have much of a thoughtprocess about what am I going to
do, did you?
Or was it just a thought in theback of your mind?
And that thought, because itwas in your back of mind, kept
you in the in the job?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Oh look, I was just struggling to live one shift or
one day at a time, yeah, so youknow, obviously.
Well, not, obviously you don'tknow, but I had thoughts of you
know, returning to theengineering degree, which I
eventually did.
Yeah, so it was really, untilmy system said you're not going
anywhere, you're certainly notgoing back into that.
(30:58):
Yeah, you're certainly notgoing back into that, nothing
really.
And the drinking on duty.
But even then, see, they lookedat it like, oh, what an
arsehole, he's drinking on duty.
Well, they were probablydrinking as well, or had done in
their career, Turned around andsaid the best way out of this
is to charge Mark, and he's ascapegoat.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I know of at least one homosquad squad detective
who was drinking on duty andended up crashing a car at the
top of St Kilda Road, but youprobably remember that, because
that would have been just beforeyou left, I reckon.
So there were a lot of peoplethat were doing it.
You know the homicide squad inMelbourne.
(31:42):
They had a, a soft drink fridge.
There was no soft drink in it.
No, it was just full of beerand drinks at the end of the
shift.
Um, so so you've, you've,you've come to this conclusion.
Um, can you expand a little bit?
(32:07):
And you don't have to,obviously, because I appreciate,
uh, you know the effects.
But when they've come to you,what was it?
An inspector, was it?
You know it's a highercommissioned officer?
Did they just come in?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
and say, I mean, they're all involved, but
basically the senior sergeant atmy station was given the job to
resolve things.
I guess I just put it that Iwas bullied because, you know, I
don't really remember muchabout that period of time.
Okay, in hindsight there was no.
Oh, mark, it's terrible, youknow you're sick from the job.
It was like, how do we makeourselves, you know how do we
(32:34):
make him disappear?
Speaker 1 (32:35):
you know and not have come back on us.
Yeah, and that's a common storythat you hear from people,
especially up to about the late90s to early 2000s, and it still
happens now.
But I think there's more of anawareness from some senior
(32:57):
police of what you would havebeen going through if it had
been today.
Um, it doesn't mean that theydefinitely would have accepted
it.
Okay, so the period for you toleave how, what was that?
Was it, you know?
A month, two months?
What sort of time?
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I was a bit longer.
My memory is I had about ninemonths sick leave or something.
Yep, not my sleeve, so it tooka while, yep, and so, look, it
is a bit cloudy.
You know, I resigned, I think Ijust eventually went and did
some casual work or somethingDuring that time, decided, well,
(33:36):
and talking with my wife, ofcourse, still young enough to go
to university, and maybe thisengineering degree might be it
and be the future.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Did you go back in that nine months?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
No, no, no, this would have been maybe a year
after I'd resigned or somethinglike that.
Okay, and they accepted me backinto second year because I'd
already done a couple of yearsYep, and so I went right through
that over a few years.
You know, full time Yep Wasn'teasy, for probably a couple of
(34:14):
main reasons.
One of them is that any studyat that level is, you know,
difficult.
They don't make it easy.
You've got to pass exams andall the rest of it.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, that's a bit of a bugger when it comes to
education, isn't it yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:27):
And so there was that and, I think, just loss of
identity.
I really didn't know who I wasIn hindsight, and that's what we
try and do now.
What we're aiming for I thinkwe've still got a long way to go
is that, you know, police, likea lot of other areas, service
areas need a proper transitionprogram Definitely, and they
(34:48):
need to be led through it, youknow, as much as they want to,
of course, and tailor to theindividual, because you do, you
really suffer a loss of identityand I think, particularly in a
job like that and well, for me,I mean, there's a bit more
awareness there I have verylittle support because people
(35:11):
around you, they just they'regoing.
What the hell is going on?
Yep, what is wrong with him?
You know, like you know, justgo, maybe my wife you know that
was my first wife with him.
You know, like you know, justgo maybe my wife you know that
was my first wife.
But you know, go up the streetand get another job and she'll
be sweet, you know, don't worryabout it.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
So, in regards to that, that loss of identity and
this is something that I'mexploring at the moment in
regards to the, the counsellingthat I'm going through is we're
talking about that for amultitude of reasons, because it
manifests itself in other, youknow, in my current career.
Do you think that it's becauseof the type of people that go
(35:55):
into policing that they pinthemselves to that identity?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, look, I think it could be anything.
But you know, to do withhelping others and so on, yep,
dale, I believe, are in that bag, and yeah, we are.
Well, I can only speak formyself.
I've met plenty of others.
You know, we're passionate andwe just give our all.
We give our all, and I think itwas a job that required that.
(36:21):
It wasn't even those whopretended to say, oh no, it's
just a job and I'll just do this.
But you know, along comes thenext job.
That's a multiple fatality orsomething you know, or whatever
it is.
And you know, you don't just gohome and say what's for dinner,
love.
You know, I just did my nine tofive and I've signed off.
Beauty, you know, yeah, You'revery invested, you know.
(36:44):
And you know I had a bloke whoI actually knew fairly well,
that I worked with in theyounger days, and he became the
head of the what do they call it?
The president of the policeassociation, yeah, and he said
oh, mark, you're just tooinvested and I'm going.
You're full of shit.
You know, what are you supposedto do?
So, unless you're a completenarcissist maybe he was but you
know, we're not just sitting ina factory, you know painting one
(37:07):
box blue and one box red.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
You know no, but the expectation is.
At the end of your shift youjust go home and put it all
behind you.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Well, I don't know whether the I don't know no from
the organisation I'm talkingabout.
Perhaps I don't know, mate.
Look, as far as that'sconcerned, you know, my focus is
on, obviously, my recovery andalso the recovery of others that
have, walking a similar trackto me, you know, been popped out
, pushed out.
As far as the police force goes, they can look after, I'm not
(37:38):
interested.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Sorry, but I just want to make that clear that
some people talk about.
Oh, how can we change themanagement of the police force?
We won't.
It's like the army and themilitary.
It's a mindless machine.
It'll be like this in anotherhundred years.
It won't change.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
No, that's true.
I guess the point I was makingis you.
You were saying that you knowpeople who have a normal job.
It's not like you just finishat five o'clock and you go home
and it's not worry about it.
What I'm saying is, though, theexpectation of the organization
has been for many years that atthe end of your shift, you just
clock off and you go home andyou shouldn't worry about it.
But we know, because of thefact that you, the jobs that you
(38:18):
go to, that triple fatality.
You're going to be thinkingabout that, maybe not today, but
in a week's time, in 12 months'time, in 20 years' time.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah, well, it's interesting with that because
you know some people call itlike a bucket and you're putting
water into it for whateverincident it is that really does
affect you or affect anyonereally.
So I could see that probably agood 10 years probably before I
got out.
Before I finished, my bucketwas full.
I was just like a hulk of amess, just a shell of a man.
(38:52):
You know how on earth I did thejob?
I don't know.
I don't know how on earth I didthe job.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I don't know, I don't know Well you obviously had I
don't know if crutch is theright word, but you had things
that you used to get you throughthat and for people who don't
understand why that's necessary.
They're never going tounderstand, but it's that type
(39:23):
of job that they're the sorts ofthings that people use to get
them through every day.
That's all we have time for ontoday's episode.
Uh, join us next week for parttwo of this conversation with
mark battersby, where we startto discuss what he actually did
after he left the police anddelve more into things like
support groups and someinteresting finds that he's made
(39:46):
about himself.
We'll look forward to speakingto you next week.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'llagain explore the human side of
(40:07):
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
(40:27):
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest line.
Let's go and meet our nextguest.
(01:29):
Welcome to Behind the Thin BlueLine a Whisper in the Shadows
podcast, where I explore thehuman side of policing and law
enforcement.
I hope you're enjoying ourconversations with former and
current police officers as Idelve into the complexity of
policing and how it affects thehuman side of police.
As a person, I'm JasonSomerville and I was a
Queensland police officer fornearly 14 years, as well as
working undercover for over twoof those years.
Hopefully you've been listeningto my stories of my time
(01:52):
undercover through my alter ego,michael Bates.
Well, I've decided it's time weheard from other police and let
them tell their stories.
Today I'm chatting with MarkBattersby, who is a former
Victorian police officer.
Good afternoon, mark.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
G'day, I'm very well.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Jason, that's good.
Thank you for agreeing to jointhe podcast and for agreeing to
have a chat about your policingexperiences, yep no worries.
Now, what I generally like todo is start off, I guess, with a
little bit of a background inregards to when you were a
police officer, how long you didit for, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah well, I joined in 1981 into the Police Academy
in Victoria at the tender age of19.
And yeah look, I could sayvarious things, I suppose.
Just a quick intro at themoment I did 15 years, nearly 15
years.
I was mostly on the front lineof general duties, as we called
(02:51):
it divvy vans, watch houses, etcetera.
I did spend a short time thepolice air wing.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
There's a story there , but anyway.
So that's sort of a very, verybrief intro to the policing side
of my life, I suppose.
No, that's sort of a very, verybrief intro to the policing
side of my life, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
No, that's okay.
Was it mainly metropolitan, ordid you do country work as well?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I did some country.
Yeah, not far out of Melbourneit would be classless country
for a couple of years.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
yeah, yeah, okay Now.
How did you become a policeofficer?
What was the process alongthere?
Did you always want to be apolice officer when you were
growing up?
What did you become a policeofficer?
What was the process alongthere?
Like, did you always want to bea police officer when you were
growing up?
What did you want to be whenyou were growing up?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, I think actually I wanted to be a
fighter pilot.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
That's very unusual for a young man.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
So I did actually have an interview with the Air
Force prior to the police, but Ireally want, and that wasn't
successful at that time I wasvery young but I was playing
football, basically footy, downhere in Melbourne, yep, and
there was probably half a dozenyoung guys that hadn't been in
the police force for long and wegot on pretty well.
(03:57):
I liked their company andplaying footy and having beers
with them and talking to themand they'd talk about what they
were doing and I thought, well,that sounds a bit more exciting
than doing uni lectures that Iwas doing in an engineering
degree at the time.
So, yeah, I applied and therest is history with that.
Now got in and away, we wentwhat?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
what engineering were you doing electrical and
communications and what was theplan?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
well, uh, there was a pathway mapped out.
Actually my father was fairlyhigh up in Telstra, yep, and so
I was always good at mathematicsand that sort of thing.
So I suppose I was steered intothat to end up at Telstra and
have a big career there.
But the two problems of that,the two main problems, is my
father was there, yeah, and thesecond problem was that I wanted
(04:44):
a little bit more, something abit more.
You know, people orientated, Ithink and the well.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
You couldn't get much more people orientated than
policing.
Did that cause any issues?
Did you, did your father?
Was he happy that you youjoined the police and didn't
follow him in his footsteps?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
no, no, my family weren't happy at all.
Don't like the colour blue.
Oh, I just think they thoughtfor me it wasn't.
You know, it was a bit sort ofunder standard or under par for
me as a person, if you like.
Not quite the right fit, butyou know, whatever they hadn't
had a lot to.
(05:21):
You know, I don't have anypolice in the family and, as I
said, I got to know whatpolicing was about to a certain
extent through playing footywith these bikes.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Did they eventually warm to it?
Not?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
really, not really.
I think the only one thatreally supported me was my
mother, you know, she thought,oh no, he'll be right, but look
I was.
I think the only one thatreally supported me was my
mother, you know.
Yeah, she thought, oh no, he'llbe right, but look, I was only
19,.
You know, and I think you know,they just saw me as a school
kid, you know.
Well, yeah, what the heck is hegoing into this job?
For you know.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
I mean, I did it at 21, and I'm pretty sure my
parents still thought of me as aschool kid too.
Mind you, I did look like one,so talk to me a little bit about
your journey.
So you've gone into the police.
How long was the academy atthat stage?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I think about six months.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, yeah, and then you were probationary for 12
months.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, two years, I think in total Two years.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Okay, you were probationary for 12 months, yeah
, two years I think in totalyears, okay, and where do you
able to say, or do you feel likeyou want to say, where that,
where you were stationed, whatparts of of?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Mel, oh yeah, I can give you where I was names, the
bosses that I hated, all therest of, whatever you want.
So what areas did you work in?
I will tell you.
But I think this is a key to myrecovery, that I'm very honest,
yep, with myself and I've hadto go through, uh, 12-step
(06:55):
addiction programs to thealcohol and all the rest of it.
And the only way to really getthrough and recover with, you
know, have a strong recoveries,to be honest, but, anyway, um,
yeah, look, I was in the cityfor a while.
I did a training station out inthe outer east.
Um, uh, yeah, in the city, Imean just to go through that, uh
(07:17):
, without getting into whathappened there or didn't or the
rest of it.
Yeah, um, all right, so I endedup going to hawthorne, I think
I don't know whether you knowwhere these places are.
Yeah, you know, I've lived inMelbourne, so I've got a fair
idea For a couple of years andthen I got it in my head Look
well, basically it was like youknow, young bloke, you know
there's all these opportunitiesin this sort of job, I'm going
(07:38):
to go for it, you know.
So I ended up applying for afew things and I got the air
wing, the police air wing Nowthey're going into it too much
at the moment.
But unfortunately my alcoholismwas roaring.
I didn't really realise that.
I'm sure some people must haveknown and I ended up drinking on
a training exercise, so gettingviolently drunk, not violently
(07:59):
drunk, very drunk.
And there's a story of all that.
And of of course they decidedit wasn't good to have on-call
police air wing people, you know, pissed at home.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Did you actually have a pilot's licence?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
No, no, so I was trained to be an air observer.
I think they called it.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So, air crew, you know learning how to do rescues
and searches.
That sort of thing was probablymore prominent then than actual
police work.
I think they do.
They've merged into more of theyou know tracking cars around
and that sort of stuff than theydid then so was that?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
was that a helicopter or was that fixed wing back in
those days?
Yeah, helicopter, mainlyhelicopter.
Okay, fair enough.
I um one of the joys of, Iguess, my policing experience
wasn't actually me working, butbecause I was a police officer,
when I was in LA I got to do ashift, an eight hour shift with
(08:55):
a helicopter crew in LA and oneof the police forces there and
that was eye opening.
That was really, really eyeopening to the point where we
were actually getting shot at.
They said don't worry, we're alittle bit too high.
They do a lot of shooting overthere.
They do, yes, at each other andat police.
All right so.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
So just to round that out, so I ended up out at my
last few years or so.
I was out at a station calledmural bark, yes, and that's
where a bit of country came in.
I was seconded to a linda up inthe hills for a couple of years
.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Okay, that was yeah, what did you enjoy about
policing?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
well, I always enjoyed.
I went in basically to save theworld, as you do, and, young
men, we can do anything.
We're fit, strong.
It was great to run down crooks.
It was good to be.
I really liked the fact thatthe general duties, as they call
it, which really underplaysreally what it is in my mind.
(09:59):
So you're out in a divvy van,you get the call, you know
somebody's stabbing someone ortrying to on the street and
you're the men to go and keepthe peace.
You know, grab the crooks,throw them in the divvy van and
you know, give everyone a bigkiss and a hug and then go and
(10:19):
do all the paperwork, which noone wanted to do, of course.
Well, I didn't want to do it.
It's quite capable.
No, no one wanted to do, ofcourse, well, I didn't want to
do it.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
It's quite capable.
No one ever wanted to dopaperwork.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
No Well, on reflection, you know how stupid
is it.
I mean, probably half the timeyou're doing paperwork.
I mean that's not what you'rethere for.
And I've spoken to some femalefriends of mine that weren't in
the job, but they said you know,we'd have been quite happy to
have the role We'd be hired.
We'd be at the station you comein, dump your crooks off and
all that, and they'd do thepaperwork.
(10:50):
I mean, that's a very simple,simple view of it, but you know.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
There are ways that I'm sure they could do.
Yeah, you're right.
Probably about 50% of your timeis spent doing paperwork for
you know the other 50% of timeof dealing with dead shits.
Basically, I was going to askyou something in regards to that
.
Oh, so back in those days thatwould have been before we had
(11:19):
things like capsicum spray andtasers and that sort of stuff as
well, so it just would havebeen a baton in your wit to try
and calm some of these peopledown, headlocked down on the
ground, handcuffs.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It was pretty urgent.
Most of the time there wasusually a bit of talking
beforehand.
If they responded to a bit oftalking, then that's okay.
If they don't bang, you know,and that's.
I really feel really sorry forthem these days because they've
got so much shit on their beltand everything.
I don't know how they walk.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
It's very hard to sit in a police car, that's for
sure.
Especially when you've got alittle 5'3", 40kg female who has
to put all that stuff on herbelt.
That's why they've gone to thevests now, so they can get some
of that stuff off their belts.
All right, so did you stay atConstable the whole way through?
(12:12):
Did you get?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
promoted.
I was a senior, I tookpromotion, did exams for senior
Connie and, quite frankly, theway I viewed it, I saw yeah,
sergeant, may have been aconsideration, but really after
that you know they're allwankers and just trying to chop
each other's heads off to get tothe top.
And I joined the job to be acopper, not a management person
(12:34):
or whatever, not a corporateclimber other's heads off to get
to the top.
And I joined the job to be acopper, not a you know, not a I
don't know management person orwhatever not a corporate climber
.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Um, so that would have, and you know, depending on
where you are in queensland, ifyou're a senior connie, you get
this some managerial roles.
I mean, there was, you know,some stations, whereas the
senior connie you were the, theofficer in charge, whereas other
stations it was a sergeant.
Did it work the same way whereyou were?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, correct.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, when I wasin the country sometimes I'd be
on my own, yeah Well, probablyhalf the time, whether it be day
shift or some of the eveningshifts.
We tried to pair up on theevening shifts, yep, but
basically, yeah, senior Connieis an unsung leader in the field
(13:22):
.
Really Everybody looks to youwhen the shit hits the fan,
because they're all very junior,yep, that's right.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And when it doesn't go right, everyone up above you
tends to back down the hill, yep.
So just talking about the factthat you know you worked one up
a lot and and that sort of thing.
Obviously, we didn't have thenews cycles when I was uh in in
(13:50):
the police, and so you wouldn'thave had them.
Newbies, I was 10 years afteryou.
Uh, do you think that it's moredangerous today to be a police
officer and and you know there'sa there's more requirement for
people to work two up ratherthan than the ability to work
(14:11):
one up, um, or do you thinkthat's a a figment of the
24-hour news cycle?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
There might have been a couple of questions there,
but I think you're asking do youthink it's more dangerous now?
Just full stop.
Yeah, I think it's a loadedquestion in a lot of ways.
I would say yes, but I wouldsay the main reason for that is
because they're so worried abouthealth and safety and
(14:38):
everything that they've riskedmanaging themselves out of a job
basically not the rank and file.
We're talking about themanagement and the way they
manage.
They just don't seem to be ableto.
In my day it was quite evident,the way we were trained and
everything, that if you had ahead on your shoulders once you
(14:59):
got your experience, you'reallowed to use discretion.
You know that's what Mark says,and what Mark says goes,
because he's been taken awaythese days.
Oh, yeah, oh, absolutely.
You can see that, yeah, andyeah it must be.
Well, it is excruciatingbecause I talk to plenty that
have got out over the lastlittle while, because I'm part
(15:20):
of a group that meet everyfortnight here for support,
because it's just the PTSD andthe ramifications that are
rampant, yep, and so I help outwith that.
I actually work as a counsellornow.
We'll talk more about thatlater.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I want to touch on that.
I want to come back to thatbecause the discussions that
we've had offline.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I was very good, actually, I'm very verbose and
very good at connecting withpeople.
So most of the time, even if itwas a gunpoint, I'd make a
connection and resolve thesituation.
Everybody gets to live, butthere's not a lot of coppers
full stop that have thatattitude.
You know they just I think alot now probably I hesitate to
(16:08):
say this, but there might be abetter way, but never mind, they
don't quite have the brainpowerNow.
Maybe it's more to do with thetraining.
Like it's a higher level, ahigher level of thinking, to
walk into a situation.
There's somebody that's quiteoff their nut, obviously you
know.
One I was just thinking of iswhere this fella.
He was in a unit He'd lockedhimself in, he'd pulled petrol
(16:30):
over himself and over the headof a woman who was there
standing beside him.
And I got to probably about 10,15, 20 minutes in.
I had him released the hostagejust by talking to him and, um,
yeah, had him isolated and uh,there was a lot of other coppers
there.
But to cut a long story short,in the end, um, I told the boss
(16:51):
what I was going to do.
He didn't like it, in fact, hedidn't want me to do it
initially, which was to take mygun off, which I did, and I've
done it before, I've done thisbefore.
This is not bullshit.
Yeah, and the other fellas thatsee me do it, before they took
their gun off, I handpicked twoor three others and we went.
Of course, we grabbed him in theend when we got close.
(17:11):
Yeah, him in the end when wegot close, yeah, but the boss,
he said well, you know, you'renot, certainly not going to get
any medals or anything, mark,because my write-up will be
nothing like what happened.
And this is, you know, this isthe honesty of the that happens
in those organizations.
I'm sure it hasn't got anybetter.
That you know.
Really, the people you knowinspector and above or whatever
they are, you've got on therethey're about their own ass,
(17:33):
they're about their ownself-importance.
They have no concern at all forthe welfare of the people
underneath them no, and they'regenerally speaking.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You know, and, and you know that that rings true
with with the people I've spokento.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
So look what I did you know, when I relay this, I
mean I get comments of people,like you know, fairly high up in
counselingselling psychologyand they say, well, that's very
brave, but you know, noteverybody's capable of doing
that and I accept that.
I accept that.
But you know, again, I make thecall, hey.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I made the call.
That's right, but I was justgoing to circle back to a point
you made where you said that youknow the brain power or the
high function you need to use toto be able to make those
decisions and be able to talkpeople down.
Do you think it's a fact thatthat they don't have it?
Or do you think it's a factthat they haven't been trained
(18:28):
to use it?
Because I know, when I wentthrough and I was one of the
first 400 after the Fitzgeraldinquiry, so you know, we were
taught all these wonderfuluniversity things, but one of
the things we were taught washow to make decisions on our own
and we were given trainingalong the lines of if someone
(18:50):
was trying to commit suicide,then you know trigger words, not
, not what, not to say what youcan say trying to talk people
down, that sort of stuff.
I don't actually know ifthey're taught those sorts of
things in today's day and age,because at school and at
university now you're taught.
(19:11):
Remember this, remember thisit's going to be in your test
remember this it's not as a freethinking yeah, it's not a free
thinking, uh education anymore,and we're getting people from
universities going to policingnow, because that's what makes
policing professional yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So, um, an interesting experience, hey, um.
But you know, as far as thedanger, I think that it's just
as dangerous.
I mean, I dealt with people.
Uh, they might not have been onice, but they're on something
else.
Yeah, there's certainly plentyof alcohol around and weapons
and all that sort of stuff, but,um, I mean, that was one
(19:54):
example, but there were plentyof other times when you did nip
it in the bud pretty early,because you have a few of good
strong fellas overpoweringpeople, you know.
And that's where I said look,I've got two daughters and a
wife.
I love women, but you know,they shouldn't be on the front
line, they shouldn't be on adivvy van.
It's just crazy, absolutelycrazy.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Fair enough.
I know quite a few femalecoppers that would disagree with
that.
I know quite a few.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
I'm sure they might disagree.
They don't have the strength.
They don't have the physicalstrength, they just don't.
They might be the odd one outof one in a million, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Fair enough Now.
So 15 years.
So mid-90s would have been whenyou finally pulled the pin.
Yeah, yeah, about 96.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
mid 90s would have been when you finally pulled the
pin.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, so that early 90s period there was very much a
shift in, I guess, from outsideand from police in the other
states.
Because I'd just been sworn in.
I actually did an undercoverjob based with Victorian, so I
went and spent just been swornin.
I actually did an undercoverjob based with victorian, so
victorian crims, so I went andspent some time in victoria and
(21:04):
and with the homicide squad.
Um, it seemed to very, verymuch a shoot first, ask
questions later, type thing inthe in the early 90s I think
it's an individual thing.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I had a mindset where I told myself I had the
conversation with myself thateveryone lives.
Mark goes somewhere andeveryone lives.
So, with that goal in mind,that's what I did.
I'd do everything I could, butstill maintaining my own safety
and that of others, obviously.
(21:41):
And so, you know, I just foundthat, unless you had the worst,
worst narcissistic crook you'dimagine and I had, obviously you
can make a connection withpeople.
They're not really feeding you.
So, mate, if you don't put thatgun down, I'm coming across to
fucking grab it out of yourhands, you know.
And so it's all psychology,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
It is.
But I guess in that particularpart of history, if you want to
call it that, there were a lotof crims in Melbourne that were
prepared to shoot you even ifyou did try and come and take it
out of their hands.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, there probably wasn't as many as purported.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I don't think, but anyway, and that's sort of where
I was getting to with thatquestion.
Was that a particularly violenttime, with people who didn't
respect police in the criminal?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Well, we obviously had the bombing and the
execution of the two from WallStreet, which were pretty close
together, Yep, and thatdefinitely affected well at all
levels, but particularly ifyou're out on a divvy van, you
suddenly approached calls thatwould have been almost benign
prior as pretty high level risk.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
What sort of impact does that have on you personally
?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
well, I think it's what policing does anyway.
I mean, eventually, you knowyou're on high alert 24 7 you
you never come down.
You know some, there's alwayssomebody somewhere that's trying
to get you do you still havethat.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Hyper not sensitivity is probably not the right word,
but uh, hyper awareness,hypervigilance, vigilance,
rather, I don't thinkhypervigilance, from my
understanding, is where youvirtually don't sleep much and
that sort of thing, whereas Ihave.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I sleep like a baby I'm, in fact, better than a baby
, probably now.
I do have my seven, eight hourssleep, and it's just.
That's non-negotiable.
The world can go bye-byes untilI wake up for breakfast, but
it's taken me a while to get tothat.
You know, taken me a while toget to that, but what you're
talking about is still there.
In fact, there's an examplejust today.
You know, I'm driving down theroad and it's very windy here in
(23:58):
Melbourne and I'm noticing allthis debris everywhere.
And then I look up because I'mlooking at trees and things, you
know, yep, and I see thisbranch has straddled a power
line, and then I see power linesdown and people are just
streaming past, you know,streaming past.
I mean this is a very dangeroussituation, you know.
(24:18):
So I call it in, in.
I didn't do much more and thefire brigade turned up and blah,
blah, blah so I guess what I'msaying is that and you might
have this as well, I'm sure youdo but, um, I notice things out
and about that.
You know the average personjust doesn't see, or if they see
something, I don't know whatthey're looking at.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
You know that sort of stuff do you find yourself
looking around more?
And this is a question, uh,that, um, when I drive, I'll,
I'll.
It's like I'm still in a policecar and you're looking at
everything that's going on.
I still look as I drive past, Istill look at cars to see what
the driver's like or who's inthe passenger seat, and that
sort of thing, and I'm doing itsubconsciously who's in?
(24:56):
The passenger seat.
Yeah, and I'm doing itsubconsciously, mm, do you?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
still have that sort of reaction.
There might be a subconscious,but I think mine's conscious a
lot of the time, you know you,just I'm happy with that because
it's not going to go away and Ithink it's actually a good
thing, you know.
Oh so do I.
I agree the safety of othersand yourself, your family.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
It was just brought up to me the other day that I do
it a lot.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
You've got to be careful, you know, but I'm not
an idiot.
So I've actually followed carsdown the street that have been
all over the place, but they'regoing at a slow speed.
And when I've got through andbeen talking to the copper at
D24, I introduce myself, so theyknow who I am and the
observations they go yeah,that's fair enough.
And I said, listen, if theytake off, mate, I'm in my
(25:46):
private car, my Mazda.
I'm not following them.
You know I'm not following atspeed, so I'm not.
You know, I have been there andwe'll probably get into that
later of how I was reallyaffected and there was a time
when, um well, I was a madman.
I was a madman for a few years,for sure I'll come to that.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
So so you've done 15 years, you've.
You've got to senior connie, uh, all in uniform.
So mostly in uniform, yeah yep,so what prompted you to leave?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
what prompted you to leave?
Well, I couldn't get out of bed.
I was so badly PTSD withdepression and everything which
they didn't call it PTSD then.
They just called it job stress.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Well, that's what the GP called it.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
And so I was bullied to resign actually basically
came to me on my deathbed, ifyou like, or sickbed, and said
you need to, you need to resign,son, you know, and if you, if
you, if you don't, we'll, we'llfight you at court on the uh,
you know, on the compensation orwhat.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
So I had some real assholes, yeah I do, I and look,
I appreciate this is sensitiveto you and personal to you, but
can you go into that?
Do you feel like going intothat a little bit more?
Are you able to go into that alittle bit more?
In regards to how did you getto that point of I don't want to
get out of bed?
I'm assuming was it at home,was it in hospital?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
No, no, it was at home yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
When you were at home .
Speaker 2 (27:18):
How did you get to that point?
No, no, it was the same.
Yeah, yeah, when you were athome.
Well, I believe, on reflectionnow, that 18 months into the job
, I went to a fatal involving atwo-year-old girl.
Yeah, and the other thing thathappened with that, I was with a
partner, but I was right in thecentre of the CBD in Melbourne,
working out of Russell Street,and the D24 operator was calling
(27:39):
for backup and not one personcame back to give us any support
.
And they would have been thereand they were in the city.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Was there a debrief about it afterwards and was
there a reason for it?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, plenty of piss.
No, no such thing as a debrief,then.
No such thing.
As I said, there was absolutelyno concern for the welfare of
the individual officers.
Whatever you went to.
Yeah, there might have been theodd sergeant around that took a
bit of interest, but usuallynot really, and so, but I
(28:17):
mentioned that because I believethat was the start of my PTSD.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Now, looking back, so you said that was 18 months in,
so you've carried that for 15,14 years yeah and everything
else, and I'm sure I'm not theonly couple that does that.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Oh no, it sort of culminated in, eventually, if
you like, the one that reallydid it all was an internal thing
.
And you know, look, I wasdrinking on duty.
Eventually I was stuffed, youknow, and any opportunity that
came up that's what I was doing.
(28:51):
So I'm not going to go into allthat right now, but basically I
was charged with drinking onduty and the other fellow there
after him for some other thingsas well apparently.
But anyway, but eventually,about 1 o'clock in the morning,
we pulled up this bloke becausehe just about ran into us with
his lights off and what so ever,and yeah, I ended up with.
(29:15):
I just wanted to.
I was just going to do a breathtest but I ended up rolling
around the roadway with thisprick and he had his hand on my
gun butt and he was trying toget my gun out of the holster.
So the only thing oh, that wasanother one like a support, my
partner there.
I don't know why he wouldn'tcome and help me, but he
(29:37):
wouldn't.
He got on the radio.
And I don't know why hewouldn't come and help me but he
wouldn't.
He got on the radio.
I don't know why he bothereddoing that, because we're in the
middle of nowhere, but anyway,yeah.
So I just had to belt the hellout of this bloke.
Fortunately I am pretty strongand once I get going, there's no
stopping me.
So I just bashed him in thehead until he took his hand off
the gun.
(29:59):
But that sort of did it in.
As much as I'm going.
This is.
You know, I've got a youngfamily.
This is bullshit, you know,I've had enough of this stuff,
you know.
But with that it's not thateasy, because you know, that's
all I knew since I was 19.
So what am I going to do tofeed my family?
You know?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
And that's very true.
So from that point to whenthey've come to you and said you
know, don't fight us, you'reresigning.
Did you have much of a thoughtprocess about what am I going to
do, did you?
Or was it just a thought in theback of your mind?
And that thought, because itwas in your back of mind, kept
you in the in the job?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Oh look, I was just struggling to live one shift or
one day at a time, yeah, so youknow, obviously.
Well, not, obviously you don'tknow, but I had thoughts of you
know, returning to theengineering degree, which I
eventually did.
Yeah, so it was really, untilmy system said you're not going
anywhere, you're certainly notgoing back into that.
(30:58):
Yeah, you're certainly notgoing back into that, nothing
really.
And the drinking on duty.
But even then, see, they lookedat it like, oh, what an
arsehole, he's drinking on duty.
Well, they were probablydrinking as well, or had done in
their career, Turned around andsaid the best way out of this
is to charge Mark, and he's ascapegoat.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I know of at least one homosquad squad detective
who was drinking on duty andended up crashing a car at the
top of St Kilda Road, but youprobably remember that, because
that would have been just beforeyou left, I reckon.
So there were a lot of peoplethat were doing it.
You know the homicide squad inMelbourne.
(31:42):
They had a, a soft drink fridge.
There was no soft drink in it.
No, it was just full of beerand drinks at the end of the
shift.
Um, so so you've, you've,you've come to this conclusion.
Um, can you expand a little bit?
(32:07):
And you don't have to,obviously, because I appreciate,
uh, you know the effects.
But when they've come to you,what was it?
An inspector, was it?
You know it's a highercommissioned officer?
Did they just come in?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
and say, I mean, they're all involved, but
basically the senior sergeant atmy station was given the job to
resolve things.
I guess I just put it that Iwas bullied because, you know, I
don't really remember muchabout that period of time.
Okay, in hindsight there was no.
Oh, mark, it's terrible, youknow you're sick from the job.
It was like, how do we makeourselves, you know how do we
(32:34):
make him disappear?
Speaker 1 (32:35):
you know and not have come back on us.
Yeah, and that's a common storythat you hear from people,
especially up to about the late90s to early 2000s, and it still
happens now.
But I think there's more of anawareness from some senior
(32:57):
police of what you would havebeen going through if it had
been today.
Um, it doesn't mean that theydefinitely would have accepted
it.
Okay, so the period for you toleave how, what was that?
Was it, you know?
A month, two months?
What sort of time?
Speaker 2 (33:15):
I was a bit longer.
My memory is I had about ninemonths sick leave or something.
Yep, not my sleeve, so it tooka while, yep, and so, look, it
is a bit cloudy.
You know, I resigned, I think Ijust eventually went and did
some casual work or somethingDuring that time, decided, well,
(33:36):
and talking with my wife, ofcourse, still young enough to go
to university, and maybe thisengineering degree might be it
and be the future.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Did you go back in that nine months?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
No, no, no, this would have been maybe a year
after I'd resigned or somethinglike that.
Okay, and they accepted me backinto second year because I'd
already done a couple of yearsYep, and so I went right through
that over a few years.
You know, full time Yep Wasn'teasy, for probably a couple of
(34:14):
main reasons.
One of them is that any studyat that level is, you know,
difficult.
They don't make it easy.
You've got to pass exams andall the rest of it.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, that's a bit of a bugger when it comes to
education, isn't it yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:27):
And so there was that and, I think, just loss of
identity.
I really didn't know who I wasIn hindsight, and that's what we
try and do now.
What we're aiming for I thinkwe've still got a long way to go
is that, you know, police, likea lot of other areas, service
areas need a proper transitionprogram Definitely, and they
(34:48):
need to be led through it, youknow, as much as they want to,
of course, and tailor to theindividual, because you do, you
really suffer a loss of identityand I think, particularly in a
job like that and well, for me,I mean, there's a bit more
awareness there I have verylittle support because people
(35:11):
around you, they just they'regoing.
What the hell is going on?
Yep, what is wrong with him?
You know, like you know, justgo, maybe my wife you know that
was my first wife with him.
You know, like you know, justgo maybe my wife you know that
was my first wife.
But you know, go up the streetand get another job and she'll
be sweet, you know, don't worryabout it.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
So, in regards to that, that loss of identity and
this is something that I'mexploring at the moment in
regards to the, the counsellingthat I'm going through is we're
talking about that for amultitude of reasons, because it
manifests itself in other, youknow, in my current career.
Do you think that it's becauseof the type of people that go
(35:55):
into policing that they pinthemselves to that identity?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah, look, I think it could be anything.
But you know, to do withhelping others and so on, yep,
dale, I believe, are in that bag, and yeah, we are.
Well, I can only speak formyself.
I've met plenty of others.
You know, we're passionate andwe just give our all.
We give our all, and I think itwas a job that required that.
(36:21):
It wasn't even those whopretended to say, oh no, it's
just a job and I'll just do this.
But you know, along comes thenext job.
That's a multiple fatality orsomething you know, or whatever
it is.
And you know, you don't just gohome and say what's for dinner,
love.
You know, I just did my nine tofive and I've signed off.
Beauty, you know, yeah, You'revery invested, you know.
(36:44):
And you know I had a bloke whoI actually knew fairly well,
that I worked with in theyounger days, and he became the
head of the what do they call it?
The president of the policeassociation, yeah, and he said
oh, mark, you're just tooinvested and I'm going.
You're full of shit.
You know, what are you supposedto do?
So, unless you're a completenarcissist maybe he was but you
know, we're not just sitting ina factory, you know painting one
(37:07):
box blue and one box red.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
You know no, but the expectation is.
At the end of your shift youjust go home and put it all
behind you.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Well, I don't know whether the I don't know no from
the organisation I'm talkingabout.
Perhaps I don't know, mate.
Look, as far as that'sconcerned, you know, my focus is
on, obviously, my recovery andalso the recovery of others that
have, walking a similar trackto me, you know, been popped out
, pushed out.
As far as the police force goes, they can look after, I'm not
(37:38):
interested.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Sorry, but I just want to make that clear that
some people talk about.
Oh, how can we change themanagement of the police force?
We won't.
It's like the army and themilitary.
It's a mindless machine.
It'll be like this in anotherhundred years.
It won't change.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
No, that's true.
I guess the point I was makingis you.
You were saying that you knowpeople who have a normal job.
It's not like you just finishat five o'clock and you go home
and it's not worry about it.
What I'm saying is, though, theexpectation of the organization
has been for many years that atthe end of your shift, you just
clock off and you go home andyou shouldn't worry about it.
But we know, because of thefact that you, the jobs that you
(38:18):
go to, that triple fatality.
You're going to be thinkingabout that, maybe not today, but
in a week's time, in 12 months'time, in 20 years' time.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah, well, it's interesting with that because
you know some people call itlike a bucket and you're putting
water into it for whateverincident it is that really does
affect you or affect anyonereally.
So I could see that probably agood 10 years probably before I
got out.
Before I finished, my bucketwas full.
I was just like a hulk of amess, just a shell of a man.
(38:52):
You know how on earth I did thejob?
I don't know.
I don't know how on earth I didthe job.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I don't know, I don't know Well you obviously had I
don't know if crutch is theright word, but you had things
that you used to get you throughthat and for people who don't
understand why that's necessary.
They're never going tounderstand, but it's that type
(39:23):
of job that they're the sorts ofthings that people use to get
them through every day.
That's all we have time for ontoday's episode.
Uh, join us next week for parttwo of this conversation with
mark battersby, where we startto discuss what he actually did
after he left the police anddelve more into things like
support groups and someinteresting finds that he's made
(39:46):
about himself.
We'll look forward to speakingto you next week.
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'llagain explore the human side of
(40:07):
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
(40:27):
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
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