September 9, 2024 • 40 mins
What would you do if the very skills that kept you safe on the job became the source of your greatest challenges off the clock? Join us on "Behind the Thin Blue Line" as we continue our heartfelt conversation with Mark Battersby, a former police officer who bravely shares his turbulent transition into civilian life. Mark reveals the struggle with identity despite having a degree and finding work in industrial automation and teaching, and how management challenges in these roles often overshadowed those in the police force. His candid discussion about battling unresolved PTSD that culminated in a significant breakdown in his 50s offers a raw and emotional glimpse into his journey of recovery and self-reflection.
Discover how Mark transformed his pain into a mission to help others, navigating the path of recovery and self-identity with resilience. We explore the vital roles of humor, faith, and support systems in healing, highlighting the importance of effective communication and finding the right people to talk to during tough times. Mark also shares his journey to sobriety and the crucial role of counseling in his recovery, reminding us that temporary jobs, such as his stint in traffic management, can serve as important stepping stones towards more fulfilling careers.
In this episode, we also shed light on the power of community and support, detailing the journey of forming and growing a support group for those in need, and the aspirations of expanding it nationwide. We introduce "Redefine Life," a counseling service dedicated to supporting first responders and delve into the realities of policing, including its toll on personal lives and the importance of mental health support. Tune in to gain practical advice for those in the force and insights into the noble yet demanding profession of policing. Don't miss out on this profound conversation that emphasizes resilience, recovery, and the strength found in community.
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If you would like to be involved in a "Whisper In The Shadows" Podcast through talking about your experiences as an current or former Police/Law Enforcement Officer or tell your stories then I'd love to hear from you.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our next guest.
Welcome back to part two ofthis conversation with Mark
(01:30):
Battersby.
Last week we just finisheddiscussing with Mark how he felt
and what led to him leaving.
Let's now continue thatconversation as we talk about
what he did after he left thepolice.
What he did after he left thepolice Now, okay, so you've left
, you've done your degree.
Was that a walk into a newcareer or were you still sort of
(01:52):
lost and unsure about thatidentity?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I was still a bit unsure because by the time I got
through that I'd sort ofrecovered a lot.
And of course, I'm a peopleperson and I'm working
surrounded by what my wife callssome geeks.
You know, they're all technicalpeople, yep and while I've got
that ability.
Obviously I'm good at maths orwhatever logic um, they're not
my people.
You know yep and um so I'mworking through that I did
(02:18):
actually get work.
uh, I got work as a teacher at aTAFE, I got work as an engineer
in industrial automation.
So these companies were Germancompanies making special sensors
for industrial automation.
So it was all sorts ofapplications.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Like SICK or IFM or something like that.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, sick was one of them.
Yeah, and yeah, look, it wasinteresting.
But some of the people inmanagement were about twice as
worse as the people inmanagement of the police force,
if you can believe that.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Oh no, I can't.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
They were tin men, absolutely no heart at all,
nothing, nothing and anyway.
But as I'm recovering more andmore, and then I sort of had
another dip again.
I believe that was becausereally everything was unresolved
, yep, and so it seems to me andit happened to me got to about
(03:15):
50-odd, because I'm 62 now.
We got to about 50-odd and mywhole system just exploded, you
know, and I ended up going intopsych wards and all kinds of
things for that period, um, butyou know what?
All that, all those bags ofshit, are now being used to help
others and I'm, you know, I'mworking my way through a diploma
(03:36):
in counseling, yep, and Ireally enjoy.
I enjoy the fact that you know,uh, you know, obviously work
with, with, and we help eachother, other counsellors, we
talk about our cases and thingslike that.
But I have this ability to justgrasp things because I've had
so much experience with people.
You know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So you did 10 years in that electronic sort of space
.
Yeah, something like that and afew other things thrown in
there.
And then you've had, pardon me,the unresolved PTSD come up and
that's given you.
Now I don't know whether youwant to go into that in a little
(04:17):
more detail or not, or we justmove on from that.
It's up to you whether you wantto talk about it or not?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Bill 1.20 Well, I can .
I just move through it on theday and see how we go, what
usually happens.
Yeah, look, there's some thingsthat I would like the
two-year-old girl.
I mean, I can talk about it,but I'll start crying.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Look one of the questions towards you.
Well, that's that.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But the other things when you're talking about your
life's threatened and that, well, as I was talking about before,
I could do that.
I'll give you an opportunity totalk about stories.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I guess what I wanted to talk about was that that,
that period you said where,where it all fell apart again,
um, you know what period didthat take for you to to come out
of that that sort of trough?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
so what was the last bit?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
you said what, what, what, how long did it take you?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
you said in about your 50s, that sort of all.
How long was it?
Probably a journey, like it'san ongoing journey oh no, I
realized that, but to get backto where you're sort of like
working again, etc.
Yeah, well then after that, um,yeah, as I said, 50 or so,
something like that when I was50 or so.
(05:33):
So, yeah, it all blew up and Iwas probably on the back.
Of the trigger was, um,probably effectively, I was
sacked from this, uh, from acompany I was working for, and
it seemed to be a set-up and allthat sort of stuff, but anyway,
that triggered me into my worthand ID and all that sort of
(05:54):
stuff, self-worth.
I thought, well, you know, Iremember actually going home.
Oh, that was when that wasbefore.
I wasn't actually sacked atthat stage, but we're on the way
.
That's what they were trying todo.
And I just walked into mylounge room.
No one was home and I justbawled my eyes out yeah I can't
(06:15):
do this anymore you know, thisis just.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
This is so unfair and I need help you're not the only
person that's done that,because I'm 54 and I've got to
say, in the last couple of years, similar sorts of things and
I've done exactly the same.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, look, I'm not ashamed of crying or whatever.
But anyway, sometimes somepeople don't want to go into
that space, but it is animportant part of the recovery.
It is.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
And I guess my point is that it's not just you.
I've been there.
Yeah, I understand that.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
That and for people listening to this and watching
this.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
They need to understand that there are other
people that are, that are inthat space.
So if they're in that space,they're not alone.
It's not just them no.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
so what we're hoping for is, uh sort of, it's not
really diverting, but going intothe recovery and the help and
supports.
Yep, I want to be one of thepeople that an ex-copper or even
a serving copper can say let'sring Mark, because he's been
through a lot of this and heknows what to do.
I'm a trained counsellor, youknow, or I'm developing that.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Because if you ask me when did you get into that,
then so, when did you get intothat, then so, when did you get
into that?
Counselling from oh, this isonly in the last 12 months.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
So I've just completed not long completed all
the theory and I'm at acounselling practice Yep, a
group of other.
We call ourselves provisionalcounsellors, yes, and it's
almost like going to an academy.
It's really great.
You know we can.
You know we have meetings wherewe can talk to it about our
cases and with our, you know,supervisor, this woman's just,
you know, fantastic she reallyis.
(07:50):
She's got a real thing about um, training people.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
So a trainer that's not just ticking the box does
she have an emergency servicesbackground, or not really, but
she is she does do some work.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
She does some speaking and she's a keynote
keynote speaker as well.
So she does do some work.
She does some speaking.
She's a keynote speaker as well.
So she does some speaking withthe Victoria Police, because
it's interesting.
They've obviously recognisedthey have to do something, but
unfortunately most of the peoplein management are still going
oh, we'll give them this lipservice and see if that makes
them happy.
And I know that sounds, butthat's my take on it.
All you know.
(08:23):
Do you know why know?
Do you know why?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I don't know how much you know about rugby league
being an AFL state in the rugbyleague.
So there's the CTE, the raindisease which comes from being
repeatedly hit in the head.
You know it's big in afl aswell, but in in in the nrl
(08:49):
they've got to the point nowwhere you're playing a physical
game where if you even look likeyou've been hit in the head,
they're penalizing it.
The reaction to that is thereaction.
That reaction has come aboutbecause for so long they haven't
done anything and now they'vegone the complete opposite
(09:11):
direction in regards to it andthey've, they've diluted what it
is, and I think the police atthe moment is, uh, at that
tipping point of, oh, we've gotto say the right things, um,
because if they were to go thenext step, then the people who
would sue and all those sorts ofthings becomes unsustainable
(09:37):
and people wouldn't be policeofficers anymore because, well,
I don't recommend anybody do it,quite frankly.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I do have a question.
That's what I'm going toexplain.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Well, I was going to ask.
One of the questions I wasgoing to ask is would you
recommend if someone came to youand said I want to be a police
officer, would you recommend it?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Well, the first question I'd ask them is why?
Right?
So I had my counselling hat onand I wouldn't put my you know
what I think on them, although Iused to when I was sort of
quite unhappy with them.
But you know, I'd just say areyou aware?
You know of the dangers and theimpacts.
You know most police end upwith PTSD.
(10:14):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Are you aware of that ?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
You know, is that something you're willing to
sacrifice and all that sort ofstuff?
So that's what I'd do.
But I mean, if you want to knowwhat it was not that well, it's
a little while ago now, but uh,it was.
Do you want your life fucked inone year or two years?
uh, yeah, good point um yeah,but anyway, um, so we're talking
(10:38):
about, you know, recovery, yep,uh, and well, at least how I
recovered, yeah, so eventuallyin about 2014, I think, as I say
, about 10 years ago now I wasin a, so I'd been seeing
counsellors or whatever to knowabout it, psychologists or
whatever, in a psych ward andI'd been violently arrested by
(11:01):
the police a couple of times.
They'd come to my home and evenmy wife would say no, she was
concerned, but she thought itwas an overreaction.
But in talking to them and thisis perhaps where you know a
reflection of where the policeforces got to, on the type of
people they'd say things likeand I think I was arrested
illegally, actually under theMental Health Act, but they'd
(11:23):
say things like well, mark's afairly big bloke, he's an
ex-copper from back in the 80sand if he goes off, you know
he'll destroy half the suburb.
He's a threat to everyone.
But it was all potential, youknow, and I am, you know I'm old
school.
I'm pretty fearsome when I getgoing.
If I want to, you know, make mypoint at somebody.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Do you use your police voice?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
I get in trouble.
So often it's like don't yell.
So I'm not yelling, I'm justmaking my police voice.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah Well, look, you know a human can get around it
as well.
And I use a lot of humor withmy wife.
It's only my wife and I at homenow and I'll sometimes just
joke around with her.
You know I should arrest herand take her to bed and things
like that.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
She doesn't mind that .
She doesn't mind that.
Well, that's good.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
This is not what I was going to say.
No, I can't think of the rating.
This is not a kids only hour.
No, no, no, no.
This is an 18 plus.
It's all good.
I didn't think so.
It's all good, I didn't thinkso it's all good.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Okay, so you were talking, you've been arrested,
you've had all these thingshappen.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, yeah, but I did want to take that up where I
was.
So I was sitting in thesidewalk and I was effectively
waiting to die.
I sort of knew that.
You know when things aren'tgood.
And I couldn't eat.
I hadn't eaten for quite awhile, so I was half my body
weight.
It was catatonic, I think theword they used.
So I was shaking and I couldn'tget a cognitive thought and this
(12:56):
is the spiritual side thatcomes with me I asked God for
help and I said you've got tohelp me.
And so after a few days Iwouldn't say I was 100%, but I
was on the way I was talking, Iwas walking around, the staff
was frightened, the shit out ofthem, because last time they saw
me I was very different.
And so I'd say, you know,through, you know I'm going to
(13:18):
talk more about what happenedand the other keys, I think, to
my recovery, but definitelyleaning into a loving and
graceful God that I knew had myback and that I could lean into
him and he was going to help merecover.
And I wanted to recover, youknow.
So doing a lot of talk likewe're doing now.
So I couldn't find anyone totalk to.
(13:40):
I know that's unbelievable, butyou know I had psychologists.
They'd run out of the room andall that and you know now on
reflection, I can see that youknow these are people that you
know.
Now, on reflection, I can seethat you know these are people
that you know.
They're very young, they go touniversity and they become a
practitioner in their profession.
You know they've been nowherenear where I've been in life.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
No.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
And I've been letting it all out.
Yeah, yeah, there's bloodpissing everywhere and there's
fucking three kids in thisbloody car one night, at four
o'clock in the morning, they'reall dead and you know, trying to
talk about how I feel.
Yeah, I hadn't even talkedabout how I feel yet, and so I
locked myself up almostliterally in our upper room, our
upper study, here at home.
(14:19):
Because one morning, you know,I got out of hospital and I just
woke up about four in themorning bawling my eyes out
again and I thought right,that's it.
And so I started to frame it asgrief.
So you know, grief has fivestages, Yep, and I had to go
through them.
There was no way around that.
(14:40):
So that's what I did andcontinued to do that with
probably my three or four mainthings a couple of them I
mentioned before until Idescribed the sting went out of
them, and now I kind of describeit like I've got little windows
in the back of my head orsomewhere.
It's not like I've completelyforgotten.
(15:01):
Like we've done today, I canopen up and we can explore
fatality or when this fellowtried to kill me, and blah, blah
, blah.
But I'll put the windows backon.
I'll go and have dinner lateror whatever, and watch some TV
and go to bed and have a nicesleep.
Now sometimes, maybe after this, I'm sort of expecting there
(15:24):
might be a few troubles, becausethis is a real focus on me and
going through the whole thingand you know.
But look, you know I'm willingto do it because I know that
it's not only.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
You have people you can lean on.
If this conversation is atrigger, Well I do.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, I mean, that's my wife who's pretty good
actually considering.
But there are.
You know, if I need to go tocounselling, guess what?
I know a few counsellors.
And for me you know, part of myrecovery again has been to get
sober from alcohol.
So I've been sober now forseven and a half years.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
So it's not an option to drink.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Not an option to drink, not an option to drink.
I know that just doesn't do meany good, and so yeah, it's been
.
How did?
Speaker 1 (16:19):
you get to the counselling side of things then.
So you know, because you said2014, that's what nine, ten
years ago.
In that meantime, you know,know, were you working what,
what?
What happened there and how didyou get to?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
this.
I did work and it's hard toremember sort of the timelines.
But for a while here I just,yeah, people sort of said look,
and my wife said just do any, dosome meaning or whatever you
want to do.
You know yep and um, excuse me.
So for a while there I workedin traffic management, if you
know what that is.
You know Yep, stop go bat andjust.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I've worked in traffic management as well.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
So, and after a while I found that my intelligence
and all that was too high, youknow.
So they just wanted something.
They didn't want you to thinktoo much about it.
No, so I'd be.
You know, I was quiteexperienced in the end, so I
could go up and set up sites andall that sort of stuff.
But as far as interacting withclients, you know, they'd just
go, because we're dealing inconstruction most of the time,
(17:18):
mate, I just want you to standthere.
And I'd go hang on a minute.
You can't tell me how to do myjob, so I was getting into.
You know the old mark wascoming back a bit.
You know, I could think.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Which is the identity side of things.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
It's the identity, yeah.
So I thought, well, wouldn't itbe good for them to have an
ex-copper doing this sort of job?
But most of them didn't see itthat way, no.
So anyway, that was there.
But I also upgraded acertificate in training and
assessment I have, so I've gotthe current training and
assessment, which is prettyhandy.
It's pretty long-winded,actually, because it's almost
(17:56):
diploma level now the workthat's required, but anyway.
So I've got that, and so Itaught mainly first aid, as well
sort of in amongst the trafficmanagement or I think towards
the end I was doing that almostfull time because it was just
they were sending me everywhere,all over Melbourne, victoria,
you know, because I thought, oh,he's pretty good.
But this is another thing thathappened with that.
(18:17):
This is, you know, for theaudience at home, this is
coppers.
I don't know.
I like to think, well, I'll putit in the best light, like
we're very intelligent humanbeings and we can really work
with a, you know, with a fluidenvironment under stress.
So my boss actually said at thiscompany, which was
Australia-wide, they said, well,you've had a lot of experience.
(18:39):
You know, we don't normally gettrainers that have actually
done so much first aid.
Anyway, I had this wonderfulidea that, you know, training
should be as hands-on as you can.
So I'd run role plays and I'dbe liking the role play and I'd
play someone drunk coming downthe road, you know, and abusing
the people doing the first aid,like the students.
Anyway, some of the young ones,some of the young ones, they
(19:01):
couldn't.
Well, yeah, they couldn't seethe difference between when I
was at training.
It's unbelievable to me.
I.
They couldn't see thedifference between when I was a
trainee.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
It's unbelievable to me.
I'm with you.
I'm right there with you.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
But I just tell this is interesting.
You know, from what you know, Ithink we have to.
Well, I'll just finish this off.
So, anyway, my boss rang me.
I'm getting complaints from youknow these young people?
And I said, well, what do youwant me to do?
And I told her what I was doingthese young people.
And I said, well, what do youwant me to do?
And I told her what I was doingand she went oh, look, just
wrap them up in cotton wool.
(19:33):
So I said, well, on Monday youcan wrap my resignation up in
cotton wool.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
So I was a bit I didn't need to do that, but I
reacted you know, yeah, no, I,and every time you talk and I'm
going to make the assumptionthat anyone listening to this
that has been in a firstresponder role whether it's
predominantly police, but fireys, ambos, whatever are going to
be sitting there nodding theirhead, going shit.
(19:57):
Yeah, that's happened to me aswell, because I see exactly the
same thing where I've doneexactly the same thing.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Well, otherwise we're too incompetent.
But also Sorry, not incompetent, we're too competent, is what I
meant to say.
But, also, we somehow and I'msort of even looking at this now
, I won't say this in the rightwords lose the ability to know
that you've got to go throughthe chain of command, like I
just said.
Well, I'm going to make theserole plays up, right which
weren't in the original scriptfor the training program, but I
(20:26):
thought what a great idea.
I'll just do it.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
What I should have done was talk to my boss first.
But you spend that formativeperiod of your working life in a
role where you have the abilityto make decisions that have far
more consequence than thedecisions you're making now, and
it doesn't click with you thatsomething that minor needs to be
run through the thing becauseit never did in your formative
(20:54):
working life.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Having said that, I don't want to really go much
into how it changed and all that, but in the last few years and
that was another stress, Ithink- you know, how things
happen and you don't realiseit's putting stress on stress.
Well, I remember this one andthis is what was happening.
And so I'm out on the van youknow seeing Connie by that stage
you know 12, 13 yearsexperience or whatever and I'm
(21:19):
called.
But you know, we just it was a.
We knew who the crook was, itwas just a willful damage or
something.
And so I'm going yeah, we'll goaround and get him do this.
And we get a call back andthere's a sergeant appeared from
somewhere I didn't really seehim at my station people and he
says oh no, I've reviewed what'shappening with you there.
This is what we're going to do.
You know, like, he's telling mehow to do my job that I've been
(21:40):
doing for.
So this start.
Obviously this was part of thewhat was happening.
This control thing was going on, so they could get to the point
where you know we don't wantanybody thinking for themselves.
However, what's the conundrumof that is that, say, you're
(22:01):
stuck in a situation where youcan't go back to the station and
talk about what you're going todo, which happens quite
frequently.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I just I don't want to say what's going on now.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I'm glad I'm not there.
That's all I can.
I just I don't want to saywhat's going on now.
I'm glad I'm not there.
That's all I can say.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
No, I agree, I agree 100%.
But I also think that forpeople of our experience and
anyone listening, that's in thatlike 70s, 80s, 90s vintage of
(22:31):
policing, because it's not thatway now and private enterprise
is that way we're handicapped.
We've got one hand tied behindour back because the way we the
way we, the way our work lifewas fomented, is so different to
(22:53):
what happens in in the realworld.
The police are there now, butwe've been trained that way that
we don't see it, if that makessense.
So we don't see the need forthe way that the corporate world
does it now in regards to thatEverything needs to go.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
We probably, in essence, because of who we are
and where we've been, we don'tfit into the corporate world.
No Like they'll do anything togo up the ladder and get more
money.
That's what it's all about.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
This is very true.
Okay, I want to touch on howyou got into with this group and
talk more about the group andwho they are, and we'll put all
the details in the informationabout the podcast, if there's
contact details and that sort ofstuff, if the group's open to
that.
But how did you get involvedwith that and how did you get
(23:42):
into the counselling part, Right?
Well, the group that meet,they're two separate things.
And how did you get into thecounselling part?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Right, well, the group that meet.
They're two separate things,you know, although it looks like
there's going to be somecrossover happening as we go
along.
We're just starting to talkabout that, but that's in the
early stages.
So I was only a few months ago.
I don't know how did I get,perhaps I saw, I think I saw
something on a group on Facebook, yep, and anyway, you'll know
(24:12):
what this means.
The group's called TJF.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah, I think anyone listening will know what that is
yeah, but they've called veryclever.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
It's actually the journey forward.
It's not what you think but itis.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
That's a very good reframe.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
yes, yeah, yeah, that's what they've done,
because apparently these twoguys that started the management
of the Victoria Police cameafter them and of course have
nothing, no control or nothingto do with them, of course, yep,
but you know that's what theydo Anyway.
So that's once a fortnight.
In fact, we're meeting thisFriday at 10 am.
(24:48):
We're all going to theMordialli Bowls Club and we're
going to have a bit of a bowland a bit of a laugh and a
giggle and a talk and that sortof thing.
So we don't always doactivities like that.
Sometimes we're just sittingaround a table and having a talk
, yep, and we realise and that'swhat I'm just talking some
people at my counseling work, orthe, the, uh, the woman there,
(25:11):
that's, uh, the supervisor orthe, you know the ceo basically
and she said, look, she's hearda few stories.
and she said, look, I think youneed someone, needs some, you
know, group moderator training,because some it can get a bit
out of control.
Yeah, with all we're alltriggering each other and stuff,
yeah, and you don't evenrealise it until it happens, yep
, and then somebody's, you know,pretty upset and not well, and
(25:34):
that sort of thing.
So we don't want that to happen.
We want us, you know, to all besupported.
So anyway, that's what happensonce a fortnight.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
And if anyone's listening to this, do they take
people to come and join, or isit?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
you know, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're hoping
that we'll grow it into, youknow, more groups, basically all
over the country.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Is there a Facebook page or something or other that
they use?
Sorry, Is there a Facebook page?
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
There might be a Facebook page.
There's definitely a website.
So if you put in TJF, it shouldcome up.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
We'll grab the website details and I'll put it
in the comment part of this.
So if people are interested, wemight be able to start
nationalising it.
Is that the right word?
Making it into a?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
nationwide group.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
So how did you get into the counselling then?
So the counselling wasobviously before you became
involved with this group yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
So, look, you know, I was really, you know.
My wife said well, you know, oh, that's right, I was um, I was
put on work cover after all thattime, would you believe, I
resubmitted that From the police.
Yeah, yeah, and it was accepted.
So I'm on a nice payment everyweek, which helps, but yeah, so
(26:57):
anyway.
But my wife said look youbetter, you know, do whatever
you want to do.
You know whatever you think youshould, you know should do.
And look, I'm a man, that'sstill, you know.
I know that you could be at 60T.
You could say, well, I'll justdo nothing and go and play golf,
(27:17):
but I'm not like that.
So you know, I really do want tohelp others and so I thought,
well, what a great way to do it,you know.
So I just investigated and well, I'd already, you know, spoken
to plenty of counsellors and Ithought I reckon I could do a
pretty good deal of this, andparticularly for, I mean, I'll
help anybody but a particularfocus on, you know, ex-police
(27:38):
and paramedics and others thatare suffering.
So you know, there's nothinglike talking to someone that's
from your environment.
You often I've had discussionsbefore and I think that happened
to me as well You'd havecounsellors or psychologists or
whatever, and they'd spend anawful lot of time picking your
brains because they just wantedto know what it was like to be a
copper.
(27:58):
They didn't really have much tooffer you.
I mean, all that stuff I'vebeen through and discussed
before, that's all on offer torecover.
And then, of course, thestrength of the recovery is in,
um, working towards you knowwhat you can go on to.
Yep, you know, because youcan't of recovery, you can, and
you know where I was, so you canrecover to an extent where you
(28:21):
can go on with life and functionand have a, you know, a good
life that's what I want.
That's what I want for anyone,you know.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
This is true In regards to.
So, with the counselling, Ijust wanted to make a point.
We were talking about how youspoke to a lot of psychologists
who were just out of universityand they didn't understand that
sort of stuff.
One of the things that I was,one of the advice that I was
given is to find someone who onewas older and two who had a
(28:50):
very good understanding of firstresponders, because that way
they could then frame all thestuff that they need to talk
about in language that youunderstand and they would
understand it as well.
Now, in regards to your councounseling service that you work
for, do you want to give that aplug here?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
so if people need to, yeah, are looking for someone
to think they, they can contactme or whatever you want um, yeah
, so, um, yep, it's calledredefine life.
Yep, redefine life, yep,redefine life.
(29:36):
Uh, there should be a.
There is a website.
Um, well, again, we'll putthose details redefine lifecomau
.
I think that's basically it.
So redefine life, that's theway.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I'm just reading from a card here.
You know that's okay, so we'llput those details in there as
well, and if anyone feels thatthey would benefit from talking
to, an organisation marketplace,then yeah, I'm happy to give my
phone number across.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
if that's, you know something they can use Mate.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
that's entirely up to you.
It's your platform.
Well, it just makes it easier.
I think yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
And I'm not a big IT man, I know how to use it, but
to me it just gets in easier.
Yeah, and I'm not a big it man,I know how to use it, but to me
it just gives me what gets inthe way of a good time.
So, zero, four, zero, zero, two.
One, two, two, eight, four, andcertainly if, um, I can't help,
then someone else will be ableto, um, put you in touch with
someone, but seriously I don't.
Uh, well, there's not a lot.
(30:26):
There are others but you knowthere's probably not a lot that
are really good, uh, that are excoppers that have got a real
focus on, you know, thatprofession I guess.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yep, not a problem again.
We'll put those details in thecomments there.
So if your phone goes off,don't blame me um, so it's uh,
you know it's great.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
it's a lot of fun actually, because even though
there's some heavy weather whenpeople are right in the thick of
it, I just sort of think youknow I'm doing, you know this is
what I needed when I was goingthrough it.
You know an ex-copper that knewhis stuff, that had some
counselling, you know trainingand all the rest of it to really
and often it's just being ableto bear with people, hold space
(31:10):
as they say yep, because whenyou're going through some heavy
um, some people just go I can't,I can't do this and that's okay
, because we're all different,you know I don't want to go and
lay bricks.
A little brick layer probablydoesn't want to come and do what
I'm doing, so that's all right,I'm no good.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
My brother and father were both uh, my brother and
father were both tradies, andthe only thing I hit with a
hammer is my thumb.
Now, one of the things that wespoke about earlier was talking
about if someone came to you andsaid I want to be a police
officer, what do you wish youknew then when you joined the
(31:43):
police, that you know now.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Oh, probably a little bit more about what it was
really all about.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Do you think that would have stopped you from
joining?
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Oh, probably not, but I think that you know I was
just.
You know I was playing footywith these blokes.
I got on well with most of them, so similar sort of blokes so
they were talking about.
They weren't talking aboutfatalities, obviously, or
anything, although they wouldhave been there.
They were just talking aboutcamaraderie mostly.
So I've heard other people saythe same thing and that's my
(32:18):
experience, that when I went towork with the coppers it was
just like the footy club, justan extension of the footy club,
really, yep, and so that was agood feeling.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
So what do you think the biggest myth is about
policing the myth?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, I don't think there are really any myths.
I mean, as a young fellow, mymemory was, you know, I was
after action.
I wasn't going to listen toanybody that said that there was
a nasty side to it.
Just having a go, I'm 19, youknow Fair enough.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Now I asked you the question of what advice would
you give someone who wasthinking of joining the police.
Your response was don't, let'ssay someone really was wanting
to do it.
What type of person do youthink needs to be a police
(33:16):
officer?
Speaker 2 (33:17):
what type of person do you think what I think and
what the police force think nowmight be two different things.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
This isn't a podcast for the police force thing.
Now might be two differentthings.
Yeah, but this isn't a podcastfor the police force, no well,
look, I don't really knowanymore.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Well, from my experience you know, and this is
what it's going to go real it'sgoing to look like I'm a
dinosaur, but I think they hadit right when they had a police
woman division.
So we don't want police womenout in the general duties and
all that you know on the frontline, so young strong men, or
just you know, even older ones,but people going in young strong
(33:57):
men, that because that's what alot of the time it is I mean
there is smarts involved, but alot of the time.
That's why they used to hire uslike that Yep, Because the
older fellows are getting olderand less fit and that's why they
concentrate so much on thefitness in the academy.
You know we've got to get outthere and grab the crooks and
(34:18):
everyone and keep the place safe.
Fair enough, it's hardly goingto be safe with a whole heap of
big fat men going around.
Can't even drop them down fordrop cholesterol.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
This is very true.
Um, all right, look, I guessthe last question that I always
ask is um and it's not really aquestion um, it's more like the
last word.
I'll leave the last word to youto say whatever it is you want
in regards to policing yourjourney, anything like that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Well, I think that, under the current regime anyway,
that you're going to haveunless you're one that for some
reason isn't going to beaffected, but you will, and so
how are you going to deal withthat?
You know, I don't know whetheryou're talking about entering or
whatever, but just generally,um, it's going to affect your
(35:13):
mental health that all the shiftwork and everything is going to
be really difficult for yourfamily.
It's okay for a single person.
Once you get a family andeverything, um, you know, is
that something you want for yourfamily?
Uh, it's okay to say that youwant to go out and you know it's
a noble profession.
You know there's no doubt aboutthat.
I mean, the people like myselfand you and all those that have
(35:34):
basically sacrificed themselvesfor the cause is very noble.
But you know, until let's putit this way, until the police
force itself has a way ofsupporting us in that, then I'd
say it's untenable.
To be quite honest, you knowit's almost like some of my
(35:55):
thoughts are police should belike military and all that.
We should have tours.
I know they get leave and allthat, but you know it is so
exhausting, particularly some ofthese heavier jobs that um do
you think mandatory leave issomething that should be put in
place, that say, after eightmonths, that's it.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
You're taking four weeks off.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Oh, definitely yeah, yeah but with that um, you know,
obviously people are going tohave, you know, their holidays
and family or whatever.
You know, perhaps they do well,something that doesn't even
affect that.
Outside of that, you go for aweek, just mandatory a week at a
retreat somewhere.
You know, yep, yeah, and let'sreally with people like me,
let's really talk about what'sgoing on.
You know, yep, and you know,really, let's bust it down to.
(36:37):
You know what's going on,because you know, it's what I'm
most concerned about and this iswhat makes me a good counsel, I
think is that I'm mostconcerned about the individual.
I really couldn't give a fuckabout the police force or any
other institution.
You know, it's the person.
I mean, look at me, I'm goingon 18 years.
I haven't seen my kids.
Now, that's a pretty severeoutcome from the job.
(37:01):
I'd say it was a lot of the job, yep, what they experienced and
what their dad ended up being.
So, yeah, until they've got aproper plan in place about what
they're doing, about thosethings, yeah, stay away.
And you know, all I want to dois just see people recover.
(37:23):
At these meetings we have everyfortnight, we just get more and
more come because people arebecoming more aware, because
they're put on sick leave,things like that, and they're
sitting at home.
What do they do?
You know there's again norecovery plan.
So they come to us and we'reworking on it.
You know it's a work inprogress because a lot of us
have just sort of only got somerecovery and sort of saying,
(37:45):
right, lot of us have just sortof only got some recovery and
sort of saying, right, this iswhat we did.
You know, what can we do?
So, in other words, it's notlike plug in at A and come out
at Z.
Certainly not at the momentanyway.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
No, I guess there's sort of something else now
that's just popped into my mind.
We were talking about, you know, don't join the police.
If someone is still hell hellbent on joining the police, what
advice would you give them tokeep their their?
I was going to say sanity, butthat's not the right word to
keep their mental health keeptheir mental health, uh, healthy
.
What would you say to them thatthey should be doing?
(38:22):
Taking a week off now and then,but you know, would you?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
sort of thing.
You know, I think that's, see.
But you know, would you thatsort of thing?
Yeah, I think that, see, peoplewould say, you know, exercise,
healthy exercise, all that.
Don't drink.
Yep, I'm mostly going to go,yeah, right, well, I drink, but
really that's, you know, to me.
You know they're thelightweight things, they're good
things to do, yep, but there'ssomething more that happens, you
(38:47):
know.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
What about having someone to talk to?
Are you putting that in placeat a very early stage?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
of your career.
Well, I believe in some of thethings I was involved in,
probably I wouldn't be the onlyone.
It wasn't a mental thing,particularly I had a broken
spirit.
Yep, you know, I'm draggingaround, you know, involved in
death and mayhem every week andthinking I can't cope with this.
But I wouldn't have been ableto put that together because my
(39:15):
superiors, or whatever the job,just said well, drink more piss,
and then, if you're not toogood, drink more piss alright,
look what I'll do don't do that.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Mark.
I'll leave it there.
Thank you very much.
I really appreciate you givingme the time to have this
conversation and for goingthrough some of those things
that you've spoken about.
I appreciate the impact that itcould very well have on you.
To everyone else who has beenlistening, mark's details the
details of the support groupthat he belongs to, uh will be
(39:51):
in the um link provided and, uh,thank you for listening from
behind the thin blue line.
If you're a current or pastpolice officer and you'd like to
tell your story, just as markhas uh, or talk about what you
do, then, then please email meat whisperintheshadowspodcast at
gmailcom.
Thank you very much and we willcatch you all next time.
(40:12):
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'll againexplore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
(40:35):
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
Welcome to Behind the Thin Blue Line, a Whisper in
the Shadows podcast.
In each city, in everyneighbourhood, on every street
they stand tall, those in blueguardians of our community, our
protectors.
But who are they really?
Behind the Thin Blue Line isthe podcast that takes you
behind the badge, beyond theheadlines, and into the hearts
(00:24):
of those who serve and protect.
We're here to break downbarriers and to tear down the
walls of misunderstanding.
We're here to listen to theirstories, their triumphs, their
fears.
Ever wonder what it's likeserving undercover, or what's
the real-life impact of policing, or how they cope with trauma?
Listen as we step into theshoes of those who walk the thin
(00:47):
blue line.
You have heard my true storiesof what it's really like to be
an undercover cop.
I want to give a voice to allthose living amongst us, unseen
and unnoticed, who have puttheir life on the line being a
police officer, hopefully togive you, the listener, a
glimpse into something you willlikely never get to experience
Uncover the complex world of lawenforcement and the raw human
(01:09):
experiences behind the badge.
Join me, jason Somerville, yourhost and a former police
officer myself, as we navigatethrough these stories on Behind
the Thin Blue Line.
Let's go and meet our next guest.
Welcome back to part two ofthis conversation with Mark
(01:30):
Battersby.
Last week we just finisheddiscussing with Mark how he felt
and what led to him leaving.
Let's now continue thatconversation as we talk about
what he did after he left thepolice.
What he did after he left thepolice Now, okay, so you've left
, you've done your degree.
Was that a walk into a newcareer or were you still sort of
(01:52):
lost and unsure about thatidentity?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I was still a bit unsure because by the time I got
through that I'd sort ofrecovered a lot.
And of course, I'm a peopleperson and I'm working
surrounded by what my wife callssome geeks.
You know, they're all technicalpeople, yep and while I've got
that ability.
Obviously I'm good at maths orwhatever logic um, they're not
my people.
You know yep and um so I'mworking through that I did
(02:18):
actually get work.
uh, I got work as a teacher at aTAFE, I got work as an engineer
in industrial automation.
So these companies were Germancompanies making special sensors
for industrial automation.
So it was all sorts ofapplications.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Like SICK or IFM or something like that.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, sick was one of them.
Yeah, and yeah, look, it wasinteresting.
But some of the people inmanagement were about twice as
worse as the people inmanagement of the police force,
if you can believe that.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Oh no, I can't.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
They were tin men, absolutely no heart at all,
nothing, nothing and anyway.
But as I'm recovering more andmore, and then I sort of had
another dip again.
I believe that was becausereally everything was unresolved
, yep, and so it seems to me andit happened to me got to about
(03:15):
50-odd, because I'm 62 now.
We got to about 50-odd and mywhole system just exploded, you
know, and I ended up going intopsych wards and all kinds of
things for that period, um, butyou know what?
All that, all those bags ofshit, are now being used to help
others and I'm, you know, I'mworking my way through a diploma
(03:36):
in counseling, yep, and Ireally enjoy.
I enjoy the fact that you know,uh, you know, obviously work
with, with, and we help eachother, other counsellors, we
talk about our cases and thingslike that.
But I have this ability to justgrasp things because I've had
so much experience with people.
You know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So you did 10 years in that electronic sort of space
.
Yeah, something like that and afew other things thrown in
there.
And then you've had, pardon me,the unresolved PTSD come up and
that's given you.
Now I don't know whether youwant to go into that in a little
(04:17):
more detail or not, or we justmove on from that.
It's up to you whether you wantto talk about it or not?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Bill 1.20 Well, I can .
I just move through it on theday and see how we go, what
usually happens.
Yeah, look, there's some thingsthat I would like the
two-year-old girl.
I mean, I can talk about it,but I'll start crying.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Look one of the questions towards you.
Well, that's that.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
But the other things when you're talking about your
life's threatened and that, well, as I was talking about before,
I could do that.
I'll give you an opportunity totalk about stories.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I guess what I wanted to talk about was that that,
that period you said where,where it all fell apart again,
um, you know what period didthat take for you to to come out
of that that sort of trough?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
so what was the last bit?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
you said what, what, what, how long did it take you?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
you said in about your 50s, that sort of all.
How long was it?
Probably a journey, like it'san ongoing journey oh no, I
realized that, but to get backto where you're sort of like
working again, etc.
Yeah, well then after that, um,yeah, as I said, 50 or so,
something like that when I was50 or so.
(05:33):
So, yeah, it all blew up and Iwas probably on the back.
Of the trigger was, um,probably effectively, I was
sacked from this, uh, from acompany I was working for, and
it seemed to be a set-up and allthat sort of stuff, but anyway,
that triggered me into my worthand ID and all that sort of
(05:54):
stuff, self-worth.
I thought, well, you know, Iremember actually going home.
Oh, that was when that wasbefore.
I wasn't actually sacked atthat stage, but we're on the way
.
That's what they were trying todo.
And I just walked into mylounge room.
No one was home and I justbawled my eyes out yeah I can't
(06:15):
do this anymore you know, thisis just.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
This is so unfair and I need help you're not the only
person that's done that,because I'm 54 and I've got to
say, in the last couple of years, similar sorts of things and
I've done exactly the same.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, look, I'm not ashamed of crying or whatever.
But anyway, sometimes somepeople don't want to go into
that space, but it is animportant part of the recovery.
It is.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
And I guess my point is that it's not just you.
I've been there.
Yeah, I understand that.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
That and for people listening to this and watching
this.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
They need to understand that there are other
people that are, that are inthat space.
So if they're in that space,they're not alone.
It's not just them no.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
so what we're hoping for is, uh sort of, it's not
really diverting, but going intothe recovery and the help and
supports.
Yep, I want to be one of thepeople that an ex-copper or even
a serving copper can say let'sring Mark, because he's been
through a lot of this and heknows what to do.
I'm a trained counsellor, youknow, or I'm developing that.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Because if you ask me when did you get into that,
then so, when did you get intothat, then so, when did you get
into that?
Counselling from oh, this isonly in the last 12 months.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
So I've just completed not long completed all
the theory and I'm at acounselling practice Yep, a
group of other.
We call ourselves provisionalcounsellors, yes, and it's
almost like going to an academy.
It's really great.
You know we can.
You know we have meetings wherewe can talk to it about our
cases and with our, you know,supervisor, this woman's just,
you know, fantastic she reallyis.
(07:50):
She's got a real thing about um, training people.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
So a trainer that's not just ticking the box does
she have an emergency servicesbackground, or not really, but
she is she does do some work.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
She does some speaking and she's a keynote
keynote speaker as well.
So she does do some work.
She does some speaking.
She's a keynote speaker as well.
So she does some speaking withthe Victoria Police, because
it's interesting.
They've obviously recognisedthey have to do something, but
unfortunately most of the peoplein management are still going
oh, we'll give them this lipservice and see if that makes
them happy.
And I know that sounds, butthat's my take on it.
All you know.
(08:23):
Do you know why know?
Do you know why?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
I don't know how much you know about rugby league
being an AFL state in the rugbyleague.
So there's the CTE, the raindisease which comes from being
repeatedly hit in the head.
You know it's big in afl aswell, but in in in the nrl
(08:49):
they've got to the point nowwhere you're playing a physical
game where if you even look likeyou've been hit in the head,
they're penalizing it.
The reaction to that is thereaction.
That reaction has come aboutbecause for so long they haven't
done anything and now they'vegone the complete opposite
(09:11):
direction in regards to it andthey've, they've diluted what it
is, and I think the police atthe moment is, uh, at that
tipping point of, oh, we've gotto say the right things, um,
because if they were to go thenext step, then the people who
would sue and all those sorts ofthings becomes unsustainable
(09:37):
and people wouldn't be policeofficers anymore because, well,
I don't recommend anybody do it,quite frankly.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I do have a question.
That's what I'm going toexplain.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Well, I was going to ask.
One of the questions I wasgoing to ask is would you
recommend if someone came to youand said I want to be a police
officer, would you recommend it?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Well, the first question I'd ask them is why?
Right?
So I had my counselling hat onand I wouldn't put my you know
what I think on them, although Iused to when I was sort of
quite unhappy with them.
But you know, I'd just say areyou aware?
You know of the dangers and theimpacts.
You know most police end upwith PTSD.
(10:14):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Are you aware of that ?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
You know, is that something you're willing to
sacrifice and all that sort ofstuff?
So that's what I'd do.
But I mean, if you want to knowwhat it was not that well, it's
a little while ago now, but uh,it was.
Do you want your life fucked inone year or two years?
uh, yeah, good point um yeah,but anyway, um, so we're talking
(10:38):
about, you know, recovery, yep,uh, and well, at least how I
recovered, yeah, so eventuallyin about 2014, I think, as I say
, about 10 years ago now I wasin a, so I'd been seeing
counsellors or whatever to knowabout it, psychologists or
whatever, in a psych ward andI'd been violently arrested by
(11:01):
the police a couple of times.
They'd come to my home and evenmy wife would say no, she was
concerned, but she thought itwas an overreaction.
But in talking to them and thisis perhaps where you know a
reflection of where the policeforces got to, on the type of
people they'd say things likeand I think I was arrested
illegally, actually under theMental Health Act, but they'd
(11:23):
say things like well, mark's afairly big bloke, he's an
ex-copper from back in the 80sand if he goes off, you know
he'll destroy half the suburb.
He's a threat to everyone.
But it was all potential, youknow, and I am, you know I'm old
school.
I'm pretty fearsome when I getgoing.
If I want to, you know, make mypoint at somebody.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Do you use your police voice?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
I get in trouble.
So often it's like don't yell.
So I'm not yelling, I'm justmaking my police voice.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah Well, look, you know a human can get around it
as well.
And I use a lot of humor withmy wife.
It's only my wife and I at homenow and I'll sometimes just
joke around with her.
You know I should arrest herand take her to bed and things
like that.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
She doesn't mind that .
She doesn't mind that.
Well, that's good.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
This is not what I was going to say.
No, I can't think of the rating.
This is not a kids only hour.
No, no, no, no.
This is an 18 plus.
It's all good.
I didn't think so.
It's all good, I didn't thinkso it's all good.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Okay, so you were talking, you've been arrested,
you've had all these thingshappen.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, yeah, but I did want to take that up where I
was.
So I was sitting in thesidewalk and I was effectively
waiting to die.
I sort of knew that.
You know when things aren'tgood.
And I couldn't eat.
I hadn't eaten for quite awhile, so I was half my body
weight.
It was catatonic, I think theword they used.
So I was shaking and I couldn'tget a cognitive thought and this
(12:56):
is the spiritual side thatcomes with me I asked God for
help and I said you've got tohelp me.
And so after a few days Iwouldn't say I was 100%, but I
was on the way I was talking, Iwas walking around, the staff
was frightened, the shit out ofthem, because last time they saw
me I was very different.
And so I'd say, you know,through, you know I'm going to
(13:18):
talk more about what happenedand the other keys, I think, to
my recovery, but definitelyleaning into a loving and
graceful God that I knew had myback and that I could lean into
him and he was going to help merecover.
And I wanted to recover, youknow.
So doing a lot of talk likewe're doing now.
So I couldn't find anyone totalk to.
(13:40):
I know that's unbelievable, butyou know I had psychologists.
They'd run out of the room andall that and you know now on
reflection, I can see that youknow these are people that you
know.
Now, on reflection, I can seethat you know these are people
that you know.
They're very young, they go touniversity and they become a
practitioner in their profession.
You know they've been nowherenear where I've been in life.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
No.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
And I've been letting it all out.
Yeah, yeah, there's bloodpissing everywhere and there's
fucking three kids in thisbloody car one night, at four
o'clock in the morning, they'reall dead and you know, trying to
talk about how I feel.
Yeah, I hadn't even talkedabout how I feel yet, and so I
locked myself up almostliterally in our upper room, our
upper study, here at home.
(14:19):
Because one morning, you know,I got out of hospital and I just
woke up about four in themorning bawling my eyes out
again and I thought right,that's it.
And so I started to frame it asgrief.
So you know, grief has fivestages, Yep, and I had to go
through them.
There was no way around that.
(14:40):
So that's what I did andcontinued to do that with
probably my three or four mainthings a couple of them I
mentioned before until Idescribed the sting went out of
them, and now I kind of describeit like I've got little windows
in the back of my head orsomewhere.
It's not like I've completelyforgotten.
(15:01):
Like we've done today, I canopen up and we can explore
fatality or when this fellowtried to kill me, and blah, blah
, blah.
But I'll put the windows backon.
I'll go and have dinner lateror whatever, and watch some TV
and go to bed and have a nicesleep.
Now sometimes, maybe after this, I'm sort of expecting there
(15:24):
might be a few troubles, becausethis is a real focus on me and
going through the whole thingand you know.
But look, you know I'm willingto do it because I know that
it's not only.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
You have people you can lean on.
If this conversation is atrigger, Well I do.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, I mean, that's my wife who's pretty good
actually considering.
But there are.
You know, if I need to go tocounselling, guess what?
I know a few counsellors.
And for me you know, part of myrecovery again has been to get
sober from alcohol.
So I've been sober now forseven and a half years.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
So it's not an option to drink.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Not an option to drink, not an option to drink.
I know that just doesn't do meany good, and so yeah, it's been
.
How did?
Speaker 1 (16:19):
you get to the counselling side of things then.
So you know, because you said2014, that's what nine, ten
years ago.
In that meantime, you know,know, were you working what,
what?
What happened there and how didyou get to?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
this.
I did work and it's hard toremember sort of the timelines.
But for a while here I just,yeah, people sort of said look,
and my wife said just do any, dosome meaning or whatever you
want to do.
You know yep and um, excuse me.
So for a while there I workedin traffic management, if you
know what that is.
You know Yep, stop go bat andjust.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I've worked in traffic management as well.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
So, and after a while I found that my intelligence
and all that was too high, youknow.
So they just wanted something.
They didn't want you to thinktoo much about it.
No, so I'd be.
You know, I was quiteexperienced in the end, so I
could go up and set up sites andall that sort of stuff.
But as far as interacting withclients, you know, they'd just
go, because we're dealing inconstruction most of the time,
(17:18):
mate, I just want you to standthere.
And I'd go hang on a minute.
You can't tell me how to do myjob, so I was getting into.
You know the old mark wascoming back a bit.
You know, I could think.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Which is the identity side of things.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
It's the identity, yeah.
So I thought, well, wouldn't itbe good for them to have an
ex-copper doing this sort of job?
But most of them didn't see itthat way, no.
So anyway, that was there.
But I also upgraded acertificate in training and
assessment I have, so I've gotthe current training and
assessment, which is prettyhandy.
It's pretty long-winded,actually, because it's almost
(17:56):
diploma level now the workthat's required, but anyway.
So I've got that, and so Itaught mainly first aid, as well
sort of in amongst the trafficmanagement or I think towards
the end I was doing that almostfull time because it was just
they were sending me everywhere,all over Melbourne, victoria,
you know, because I thought, oh,he's pretty good.
But this is another thing thathappened with that.
(18:17):
This is, you know, for theaudience at home, this is
coppers.
I don't know.
I like to think, well, I'll putit in the best light, like
we're very intelligent humanbeings and we can really work
with a, you know, with a fluidenvironment under stress.
So my boss actually said at thiscompany, which was
Australia-wide, they said, well,you've had a lot of experience.
(18:39):
You know, we don't normally gettrainers that have actually
done so much first aid.
Anyway, I had this wonderfulidea that, you know, training
should be as hands-on as you can.
So I'd run role plays and I'dbe liking the role play and I'd
play someone drunk coming downthe road, you know, and abusing
the people doing the first aid,like the students.
Anyway, some of the young ones,some of the young ones, they
(19:01):
couldn't.
Well, yeah, they couldn't seethe difference between when I
was at training.
It's unbelievable to me.
I.
They couldn't see thedifference between when I was a
trainee.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
It's unbelievable to me.
I'm with you.
I'm right there with you.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
But I just tell this is interesting.
You know, from what you know, Ithink we have to.
Well, I'll just finish this off.
So, anyway, my boss rang me.
I'm getting complaints from youknow these young people?
And I said, well, what do youwant me to do?
And I told her what I was doingthese young people.
And I said, well, what do youwant me to do?
And I told her what I was doingand she went oh, look, just
wrap them up in cotton wool.
(19:33):
So I said, well, on Monday youcan wrap my resignation up in
cotton wool.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
So I was a bit I didn't need to do that, but I
reacted you know, yeah, no, I,and every time you talk and I'm
going to make the assumptionthat anyone listening to this
that has been in a firstresponder role whether it's
predominantly police, but fireys, ambos, whatever are going to
be sitting there nodding theirhead, going shit.
(19:57):
Yeah, that's happened to me aswell, because I see exactly the
same thing where I've doneexactly the same thing.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Well, otherwise we're too incompetent.
But also Sorry, not incompetent, we're too competent, is what I
meant to say.
But, also, we somehow and I'msort of even looking at this now
, I won't say this in the rightwords lose the ability to know
that you've got to go throughthe chain of command, like I
just said.
Well, I'm going to make theserole plays up, right which
weren't in the original scriptfor the training program, but I
(20:26):
thought what a great idea.
I'll just do it.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
What I should have done was talk to my boss first.
But you spend that formativeperiod of your working life in a
role where you have the abilityto make decisions that have far
more consequence than thedecisions you're making now, and
it doesn't click with you thatsomething that minor needs to be
run through the thing becauseit never did in your formative
(20:54):
working life.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Having said that, I don't want to really go much
into how it changed and all that, but in the last few years and
that was another stress, Ithink- you know, how things
happen and you don't realiseit's putting stress on stress.
Well, I remember this one andthis is what was happening.
And so I'm out on the van youknow seeing Connie by that stage
you know 12, 13 yearsexperience or whatever and I'm
(21:19):
called.
But you know, we just it was a.
We knew who the crook was, itwas just a willful damage or
something.
And so I'm going yeah, we'll goaround and get him do this.
And we get a call back andthere's a sergeant appeared from
somewhere I didn't really seehim at my station people and he
says oh no, I've reviewed what'shappening with you there.
This is what we're going to do.
You know, like, he's telling mehow to do my job that I've been
(21:40):
doing for.
So this start.
Obviously this was part of thewhat was happening.
This control thing was going on, so they could get to the point
where you know we don't wantanybody thinking for themselves.
However, what's the conundrumof that is that, say, you're
(22:01):
stuck in a situation where youcan't go back to the station and
talk about what you're going todo, which happens quite
frequently.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
I just I don't want to say what's going on now.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I'm glad I'm not there.
That's all I can.
I just I don't want to saywhat's going on now.
I'm glad I'm not there.
That's all I can say.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
No, I agree, I agree 100%.
But I also think that forpeople of our experience and
anyone listening, that's in thatlike 70s, 80s, 90s vintage of
(22:31):
policing, because it's not thatway now and private enterprise
is that way we're handicapped.
We've got one hand tied behindour back because the way we the
way we, the way our work lifewas fomented, is so different to
(22:53):
what happens in in the realworld.
The police are there now, butwe've been trained that way that
we don't see it, if that makessense.
So we don't see the need forthe way that the corporate world
does it now in regards to thatEverything needs to go.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
We probably, in essence, because of who we are
and where we've been, we don'tfit into the corporate world.
No Like they'll do anything togo up the ladder and get more
money.
That's what it's all about.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
This is very true.
Okay, I want to touch on howyou got into with this group and
talk more about the group andwho they are, and we'll put all
the details in the informationabout the podcast, if there's
contact details and that sort ofstuff, if the group's open to
that.
But how did you get involvedwith that and how did you get
(23:42):
into the counselling part, Right?
Well, the group that meet,they're two separate things.
And how did you get into thecounselling part?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Right, well, the group that meet.
They're two separate things,you know, although it looks like
there's going to be somecrossover happening as we go
along.
We're just starting to talkabout that, but that's in the
early stages.
So I was only a few months ago.
I don't know how did I get,perhaps I saw, I think I saw
something on a group on Facebook, yep, and anyway, you'll know
(24:12):
what this means.
The group's called TJF.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah, I think anyone listening will know what that is
yeah, but they've called veryclever.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
It's actually the journey forward.
It's not what you think but itis.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
That's a very good reframe.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
yes, yeah, yeah, that's what they've done,
because apparently these twoguys that started the management
of the Victoria Police cameafter them and of course have
nothing, no control or nothingto do with them, of course, yep,
but you know that's what theydo Anyway.
So that's once a fortnight.
In fact, we're meeting thisFriday at 10 am.
(24:48):
We're all going to theMordialli Bowls Club and we're
going to have a bit of a bowland a bit of a laugh and a
giggle and a talk and that sortof thing.
So we don't always doactivities like that.
Sometimes we're just sittingaround a table and having a talk
, yep, and we realise and that'swhat I'm just talking some
people at my counseling work, orthe, the, uh, the woman there,
(25:11):
that's, uh, the supervisor orthe, you know the ceo basically
and she said, look, she's hearda few stories.
and she said, look, I think youneed someone, needs some, you
know, group moderator training,because some it can get a bit
out of control.
Yeah, with all we're alltriggering each other and stuff,
yeah, and you don't evenrealise it until it happens, yep
, and then somebody's, you know,pretty upset and not well, and
(25:34):
that sort of thing.
So we don't want that to happen.
We want us, you know, to all besupported.
So anyway, that's what happensonce a fortnight.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
And if anyone's listening to this, do they take
people to come and join, or isit?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
you know, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're hoping
that we'll grow it into, youknow, more groups, basically all
over the country.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Is there a Facebook page or something or other that
they use?
Sorry, Is there a Facebook page?
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
There might be a Facebook page.
There's definitely a website.
So if you put in TJF, it shouldcome up.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
We'll grab the website details and I'll put it
in the comment part of this.
So if people are interested, wemight be able to start
nationalising it.
Is that the right word?
Making it into a?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
nationwide group.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
So how did you get into the counselling then?
So the counselling wasobviously before you became
involved with this group yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
So, look, you know, I was really, you know.
My wife said well, you know, oh, that's right, I was um, I was
put on work cover after all thattime, would you believe, I
resubmitted that From the police.
Yeah, yeah, and it was accepted.
So I'm on a nice payment everyweek, which helps, but yeah, so
(26:57):
anyway.
But my wife said look youbetter, you know, do whatever
you want to do.
You know whatever you think youshould, you know should do.
And look, I'm a man, that'sstill, you know.
I know that you could be at 60T.
You could say, well, I'll justdo nothing and go and play golf,
(27:17):
but I'm not like that.
So you know, I really do want tohelp others and so I thought,
well, what a great way to do it,you know.
So I just investigated and well, I'd already, you know, spoken
to plenty of counsellors and Ithought I reckon I could do a
pretty good deal of this, andparticularly for, I mean, I'll
help anybody but a particularfocus on, you know, ex-police
(27:38):
and paramedics and others thatare suffering.
So you know, there's nothinglike talking to someone that's
from your environment.
You often I've had discussionsbefore and I think that happened
to me as well You'd havecounsellors or psychologists or
whatever, and they'd spend anawful lot of time picking your
brains because they just wantedto know what it was like to be a
copper.
(27:58):
They didn't really have much tooffer you.
I mean, all that stuff I'vebeen through and discussed
before, that's all on offer torecover.
And then, of course, thestrength of the recovery is in,
um, working towards you knowwhat you can go on to.
Yep, you know, because youcan't of recovery, you can, and
you know where I was, so you canrecover to an extent where you
(28:21):
can go on with life and functionand have a, you know, a good
life that's what I want.
That's what I want for anyone,you know.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
This is true In regards to.
So, with the counselling, Ijust wanted to make a point.
We were talking about how youspoke to a lot of psychologists
who were just out of universityand they didn't understand that
sort of stuff.
One of the things that I was,one of the advice that I was
given is to find someone who onewas older and two who had a
(28:50):
very good understanding of firstresponders, because that way
they could then frame all thestuff that they need to talk
about in language that youunderstand and they would
understand it as well.
Now, in regards to your councounseling service that you work
for, do you want to give that aplug here?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
so if people need to, yeah, are looking for someone
to think they, they can contactme or whatever you want um, yeah
, so, um, yep, it's calledredefine life.
Yep, redefine life, yep,redefine life.
(29:36):
Uh, there should be a.
There is a website.
Um, well, again, we'll putthose details redefine lifecomau
.
I think that's basically it.
So redefine life, that's theway.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I'm just reading from a card here.
You know that's okay, so we'llput those details in there as
well, and if anyone feels thatthey would benefit from talking
to, an organisation marketplace,then yeah, I'm happy to give my
phone number across.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
if that's, you know something they can use Mate.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
that's entirely up to you.
It's your platform.
Well, it just makes it easier.
I think yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
And I'm not a big IT man, I know how to use it, but
to me it just gets in easier.
Yeah, and I'm not a big it man,I know how to use it, but to me
it just gives me what gets inthe way of a good time.
So, zero, four, zero, zero, two.
One, two, two, eight, four, andcertainly if, um, I can't help,
then someone else will be ableto, um, put you in touch with
someone, but seriously I don't.
Uh, well, there's not a lot.
(30:26):
There are others but you knowthere's probably not a lot that
are really good, uh, that are excoppers that have got a real
focus on, you know, thatprofession I guess.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yep, not a problem again.
We'll put those details in thecomments there.
So if your phone goes off,don't blame me um, so it's uh,
you know it's great.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
it's a lot of fun actually, because even though
there's some heavy weather whenpeople are right in the thick of
it, I just sort of think youknow I'm doing, you know this is
what I needed when I was goingthrough it.
You know an ex-copper that knewhis stuff, that had some
counselling, you know trainingand all the rest of it to really
and often it's just being ableto bear with people, hold space
(31:10):
as they say yep, because whenyou're going through some heavy
um, some people just go I can't,I can't do this and that's okay
, because we're all different,you know I don't want to go and
lay bricks.
A little brick layer probablydoesn't want to come and do what
I'm doing, so that's all right,I'm no good.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
My brother and father were both uh, my brother and
father were both tradies, andthe only thing I hit with a
hammer is my thumb.
Now, one of the things that wespoke about earlier was talking
about if someone came to you andsaid I want to be a police
officer, what do you wish youknew then when you joined the
(31:43):
police, that you know now.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Oh, probably a little bit more about what it was
really all about.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Do you think that would have stopped you from
joining?
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Oh, probably not, but I think that you know I was
just.
You know I was playing footywith these blokes.
I got on well with most of them, so similar sort of blokes so
they were talking about.
They weren't talking aboutfatalities, obviously, or
anything, although they wouldhave been there.
They were just talking aboutcamaraderie mostly.
So I've heard other people saythe same thing and that's my
(32:18):
experience, that when I went towork with the coppers it was
just like the footy club, justan extension of the footy club,
really, yep, and so that was agood feeling.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
So what do you think the biggest myth is about
policing the myth?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, I don't think there are really any myths.
I mean, as a young fellow, mymemory was, you know, I was
after action.
I wasn't going to listen toanybody that said that there was
a nasty side to it.
Just having a go, I'm 19, youknow Fair enough.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Now I asked you the question of what advice would
you give someone who wasthinking of joining the police.
Your response was don't, let'ssay someone really was wanting
to do it.
What type of person do youthink needs to be a police
(33:16):
officer?
Speaker 2 (33:17):
what type of person do you think what I think and
what the police force think nowmight be two different things.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
This isn't a podcast for the police force thing.
Now might be two differentthings.
Yeah, but this isn't a podcastfor the police force, no well,
look, I don't really knowanymore.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Well, from my experience you know, and this is
what it's going to go real it'sgoing to look like I'm a
dinosaur, but I think they hadit right when they had a police
woman division.
So we don't want police womenout in the general duties and
all that you know on the frontline, so young strong men, or
just you know, even older ones,but people going in young strong
(33:57):
men, that because that's what alot of the time it is I mean
there is smarts involved, but alot of the time.
That's why they used to hire uslike that Yep, Because the
older fellows are getting olderand less fit and that's why they
concentrate so much on thefitness in the academy.
You know we've got to get outthere and grab the crooks and
(34:18):
everyone and keep the place safe.
Fair enough, it's hardly goingto be safe with a whole heap of
big fat men going around.
Can't even drop them down fordrop cholesterol.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
This is very true.
Um, all right, look, I guessthe last question that I always
ask is um and it's not really aquestion um, it's more like the
last word.
I'll leave the last word to youto say whatever it is you want
in regards to policing yourjourney, anything like that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Well, I think that, under the current regime anyway,
that you're going to haveunless you're one that for some
reason isn't going to beaffected, but you will, and so
how are you going to deal withthat?
You know, I don't know whetheryou're talking about entering or
whatever, but just generally,um, it's going to affect your
(35:13):
mental health that all the shiftwork and everything is going to
be really difficult for yourfamily.
It's okay for a single person.
Once you get a family andeverything, um, you know, is
that something you want for yourfamily?
Uh, it's okay to say that youwant to go out and you know it's
a noble profession.
You know there's no doubt aboutthat.
I mean, the people like myselfand you and all those that have
(35:34):
basically sacrificed themselvesfor the cause is very noble.
But you know, until let's putit this way, until the police
force itself has a way ofsupporting us in that, then I'd
say it's untenable.
To be quite honest, you knowit's almost like some of my
(35:55):
thoughts are police should belike military and all that.
We should have tours.
I know they get leave and allthat, but you know it is so
exhausting, particularly some ofthese heavier jobs that um do
you think mandatory leave issomething that should be put in
place, that say, after eightmonths, that's it.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
You're taking four weeks off.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Oh, definitely yeah, yeah but with that um, you know,
obviously people are going tohave, you know, their holidays
and family or whatever.
You know, perhaps they do well,something that doesn't even
affect that.
Outside of that, you go for aweek, just mandatory a week at a
retreat somewhere.
You know, yep, yeah, and let'sreally with people like me,
let's really talk about what'sgoing on.
You know, yep, and you know,really, let's bust it down to.
(36:37):
You know what's going on,because you know, it's what I'm
most concerned about and this iswhat makes me a good counsel, I
think is that I'm mostconcerned about the individual.
I really couldn't give a fuckabout the police force or any
other institution.
You know, it's the person.
I mean, look at me, I'm goingon 18 years.
I haven't seen my kids.
Now, that's a pretty severeoutcome from the job.
(37:01):
I'd say it was a lot of the job, yep, what they experienced and
what their dad ended up being.
So, yeah, until they've got aproper plan in place about what
they're doing, about thosethings, yeah, stay away.
And you know, all I want to dois just see people recover.
(37:23):
At these meetings we have everyfortnight, we just get more and
more come because people arebecoming more aware, because
they're put on sick leave,things like that, and they're
sitting at home.
What do they do?
You know there's again norecovery plan.
So they come to us and we'reworking on it.
You know it's a work inprogress because a lot of us
have just sort of only got somerecovery and sort of saying,
(37:45):
right, lot of us have just sortof only got some recovery and
sort of saying, right, this iswhat we did.
You know, what can we do?
So, in other words, it's notlike plug in at A and come out
at Z.
Certainly not at the momentanyway.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
No, I guess there's sort of something else now
that's just popped into my mind.
We were talking about, you know, don't join the police.
If someone is still hell hellbent on joining the police, what
advice would you give them tokeep their their?
I was going to say sanity, butthat's not the right word to
keep their mental health keeptheir mental health, uh, healthy
.
What would you say to them thatthey should be doing?
(38:22):
Taking a week off now and then,but you know, would you?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
sort of thing.
You know, I think that's, see.
But you know, would you thatsort of thing?
Yeah, I think that, see, peoplewould say, you know, exercise,
healthy exercise, all that.
Don't drink.
Yep, I'm mostly going to go,yeah, right, well, I drink, but
really that's, you know, to me.
You know they're thelightweight things, they're good
things to do, yep, but there'ssomething more that happens, you
(38:47):
know.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
What about having someone to talk to?
Are you putting that in placeat a very early stage?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
of your career.
Well, I believe in some of thethings I was involved in,
probably I wouldn't be the onlyone.
It wasn't a mental thing,particularly I had a broken
spirit.
Yep, you know, I'm draggingaround, you know, involved in
death and mayhem every week andthinking I can't cope with this.
But I wouldn't have been ableto put that together because my
(39:15):
superiors, or whatever the job,just said well, drink more piss,
and then, if you're not toogood, drink more piss alright,
look what I'll do don't do that.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Mark.
I'll leave it there.
Thank you very much.
I really appreciate you givingme the time to have this
conversation and for goingthrough some of those things
that you've spoken about.
I appreciate the impact that itcould very well have on you.
To everyone else who has beenlistening, mark's details the
details of the support groupthat he belongs to, uh will be
(39:51):
in the um link provided and, uh,thank you for listening from
behind the thin blue line.
If you're a current or pastpolice officer and you'd like to
tell your story, just as markhas uh, or talk about what you
do, then, then please email meat whisperintheshadowspodcast at
gmailcom.
Thank you very much and we willcatch you all next time.
(40:12):
Thank you for joining me onBehind the Thin Blue Line, where
I have conversations withcurrent and former police
officers and they get to telltheir stories.
I hope you've enjoyed thatepisode.
In the next episode, we'll againexplore the human side of
policing through moreconversations with police
officers from around the world.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast so you never miss
(40:35):
an episode.
Lastly, if you're a current orformer police officer, I would
love to chat to you about yourexperiences or, if you're
feeling dangerous, tell yourstories on my podcast.
Please get in contact by myemail, which is
whisperintheshadowspodcast atgmailcom.
I look forward to you joiningme next week.
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