Dementia Americana- The Murder of Stanford White

In our 17th season finale we discuss a clash of the titans that took place at the turn of the 20th century when coal and transport magnate Harry K Thaw shot famous architect Stanford White on the rooftop of Madison Square Garden in front of countless witnesses. But the real victim was the young woman caught up in the mix, Evelyn Nesbit, Harry's wife.

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Wall Street veteran Bernard Madoff has been arrested and
charged with running a $50 billion Ponzi scheme.
Congress wants to know what caused the Enron meltdown, and
while the collective rage currently is focused on low
comp, Tyco CEO Dennis Koslowski was convicted of looting
hundreds. Of millions of dollars.
This is one of the biggest fraudcases ever.

(00:23):
Their president's a crook. Well, I'm not a crook.
Find out more on this week's episode of White Collars Red
Hands On the evening of June 25th, 19 O 6, esteemed architect
Stanford White entered fashionably late to the opening
of the new musical Manziel Champagne, which was opening on

(00:44):
the roof of a building that he himself designed, Madison Square
Garden. As he took his seat at his
reserve table, just five rows from the stage, another man
lurked in the shadows, fidgetingwith a revolver tucked in his
coat. Harry K Thaw, another
millionaire attending the play that night, made a beeline for

(01:05):
White's table, and when he was 12 feet away, he produced the
revolver from inside of his coatand fired three times as he
approached. A feud that had been bubbling
under the surface between these pillars of wealth had just come
to a violent head in front of thousands in attendance.
The events that led up to this night were fraught with terrible

(01:25):
behavior, the likes of which could only be allowed in the
seedy underbelly that is controlled by the Dionysian
celebration of excess that was employed by men of whites and
thaws status. The trial that was to follow was
dubbed another Trial of the Century, even though this
century was still young. Find out what caused such a

(01:49):
public murder and what happened to the man holding the pistol on
this, the Season 17 finale of White Collar's Red Hands.
Yeah, how do you like you can't deem anything the the trial of
the century until after the century is over.
Seven years into the into the century, you're like this one's
it. Does that guy's nothing crazier

(02:09):
is gonna happen? It's like I, I don't know, I
just. There will not be a new man
named OJ Simpson who kills his Good Wife.
That will not happen. Yeah, what?
Like what would that sounds crazy.
What would that happen like 90 years from now?
There's no way This is it. I have a feeling.
Harry K Thaw. Trial of the Century.
Trial of the Century. Yeah.

(02:29):
Well, was it the trial of the century?
Yeah. Definitely debatable.
No one. I guarantee you that right now
you were not. If I asked 1000 people what the
trial of the century was that one of them would say, oh, yeah,
that's that, that Harry K Thaw guy who shot the guy at Madison
Square Garden. Right.
Yeah. So welcome to the Season 17
finale. For those of you who have been

(02:51):
with us for the previous sixteenseasons, you'll know that the
final episode is always a murdercommitted by the wealthy.
Sometimes their victim is also wealthy, sometimes they're not.
This just so happens to be two millionaires that one shot the
other one. 2 millionaires, 1 bullet.
Multimillionaires, and these aremillionaires in the early 1900s.
So they're really, really millionaires.
Yeah, so it means. They would have hell of money

(03:14):
now. A lot, but yeah.
So welcome back. My name is Kashan.
And I'm Nina. And yeah, we're talking about
the the murder of architect Stanford White and the person
who did it, Harry K Thaw, and the woman in the middle.
You'll find out that caused all of it, not caused all of it.
It was not her fault but but it she was the reason for these men

(03:37):
why this came to a head. Cause Sean is always blaming
women. Evelyn Nesbitt.
I love doing that. You know, I love every time I
see a victim, I'm like, blame that.
Blame a woman. Blame that victim.
That's me famous for it. Yeah.
No, I should say at the beginning, though, there are a
couple of trigger warnings for this, obviously violence.

(03:58):
There's also sexual assaults involving a minor and just kind
of a lot of not great stuff thatused to be present in our
society in even greater numbers than it is now, but does still
is. So just be aware of that.
Oh, suicide attempts. At least no one did it to

(04:21):
completion, but they tried so. Please don't use the word
suicide into completion and. I didn't know how.
That is really gross. I.
Didn't know how I was desiring. Unsuccessful.
Yeah, I was. Just they did not successfully
commit suicide. I was halfway through the
sentence. It didn't end up how I wanted it
to, but yeah, they didn't. Commit suicide to completion.
If I could go back and say it again.

(04:43):
If you could go back in history and change one moment, you would
change that you said that. OK, let's not.
No, I'd go back. I'd blame a victim more.
You know, I just, I don't do that.
It's a joke. Anyway, Let's let's learn about
Harry. Harry Thaw, huh?
Harry Kendall Thaw was born on February 12th, 1871 into an
already affluent family. His father, William Thaw, was a

(05:06):
multimillionaire who made his fortune from a freight shipping
business that he started and ranin Pittsburgh, PA and also was
in the coal business. So a lot of boats and train
transportation and then coal. Harry was one of eleven children
that William would have between his two wives.

(05:26):
But Harry was definitely like the burnout of the bunch.
He was. He was.
He didn't. Every family's got to have one.
He didn't want to like work, he just wanted to be rich.
I hear that, you know, I understand that on a very deep
spiritual level. But not in actuality, no.
I don't know what it's like at all.
But you know you, you wish. But I fantasize, yeah, sure.

(05:46):
When people are like, what is your fantasy to be rich and not
work? That's my fantasy.
Yeah, you basically just are theKardashians, but without money.
Or any plastic surgery? Yet.
Yet. So it's because you can't afford
it. Yeah, imagine how hot it would
be with this plastic surgery just if I had the right doctor.
We're not getting into this. His most famous sibling, Harry K

(06:07):
Thaw, would likely be his sisterAlice who.
Alice Thaw is his sister. Oh my God.
Yeah, What? Wait, let me scroll up on this.
What'd you do, Nina? She actually fell down a rabbit
hole and she went to a place called Wonderland.
She what she did was she took acid and then she fell down the
rabbit hole and then she went toa magical world and then they

(06:32):
wrote a biography about her and it was called Alice in
Wonderland. Wow, I hate to, I hate to tell
you this Nina, but you're reallyfucking wrong.
She actually went on to marry and Earl and became Countess of
Yarmouth. So I was so close.
Not at all. You're very far off.
Harry, however, was an underperformer in school who was

(06:54):
often seen as a troublemaker. He bounced around private
schools, getting kicked out of afew, but still was admitted into
the University of Pittsburgh after high school, likely due to
his family's influence. More than anything, he just had
the money back in the early 1900s.
They, you know, they don't. There was no SAT score, ACT
score. They just, they just carried.

(07:15):
Are you white? Are you a man?
Do you have money? A great.
You get to vote and you get intothe University of Pittsburgh.
Get your ass in here. He wanted to be a lawyer.
He studied law originally, but after a few unsuccessful years,
he pushed his influence even further and got accepted into
arguably the most prestigious College in America, Harvard.
So he was a So he was a transferfrom the University of

(07:37):
Pittsburgh to Harvard. He once again only spent a few
years at Harvard, mostly just carousing, drinking, playing
poker with his friends, and continuing to be crazy.
One account said that he actually chased a cabbie with a
shotgun down a street in 1884 because he believed that he had
been overcharged for the ride bya dime.

(07:59):
I mean I by a dime. Well, I mean, I say it's like
1800s. I mean, a dime goes a long way.
Yeah, damn. I mean, I can't fault him.
I think this is a perfectly reasonable behavior.
Well then it I guess it'll make you feel even better to know
that he justified it by saying yo guys, the shotgun wasn't like
loaded. Though see, these people can't
take a joke you. Know you can chase a cabbie down

(08:20):
the street with a shotgun as long as it's.
Not it's not loaded, that's whatthat's.
What's bad about In the end, Harvard decided to part ways
with when he was expelled for immoral practices and for bouts
of apparent violence against even teachers.

(08:40):
Like he was even trying to, like, intimidate teachers and
other students. The gun wasn't loaded.
Yeah, yeah, you know, come on, man.
When he, when he threatened his teacher, the gun wasn't loaded.
It's fine. Which he would, obviously.
He'd continue these these bouts until deep into adulthood, as we
already know, and we'll find outmore about this whole time,

(09:01):
though, his mother, Mary SibbettCopley, thought that Harry just
he could do no wrong. He's my baby boy and.
He was her. He was her little baby.
And that he was. He's just a victim of the world
who didn't understand him, whichI say is his fault.
Harry's father did, however, decided to put his foot down
after Harry was expelled from Harvard and showed him what for

(09:24):
when he reduced his monthly allowance to just a measly $2500
a month. In the 1800s.
Yeah, that is the equivalent of roughly $88,000 a month today
and five times more than the average salary at the time.
An average working man took home$500 and he quits, taking over
2500 as an allowance. And that was.

(09:46):
That's insane. And that was reduced.
He was like this kids narcissistic.
Better reduces better only give him like 5 * a salary a month.
Oh my God. When his father died in 1893,
the mother who had always baby him decided to remove the
governor on his allowance and raised it to $8000 a month.
So I mean, that's what roughly just over three times.

(10:10):
So it's definitely more than $100,000 today.
This is a month, mind you, againa month.
This is his monthly allowance. Wait, I'm sorry.
Why? Why was his dad rich?
He was a coal, coal and transportation magnet.
Got you. So yeah.
They liked coal back then. They used a lot of it.
It was the main fuel source, I believe.

(10:31):
It was definitely before all these petroleum products because
cars weren't around so until later in this story, and even
then they weren't widely adopted.
So with a dead dad, plenty of money, and his recent expulsion
from Harvard, Harry decided he wanted a change of scenery and
started spending more time in the city that never sleeps, New
York City, which was already filled with debaucherous rich

(10:52):
men that Harry hoped he could find common ground with.
One such man was Stanford White.Stanford White, as we know from
the intro, you guys were there. We were there.
He was a very famous architect known for the second iteration
of Madison Square Garden, which was torn down in 1925.
And there was one before it. So it's not like a round.

(11:14):
But he's also known for designing many other works,
including the most One of his most defining and what defines
New York City, it's one of the biggest draws is the Washington
Square arch. Still here?
Still here. A lot of his other ones are not
here anymore. He did like the the New York
Herald building, which was a very famous building.
That one's gone. And then he did also design some

(11:36):
buildings in New England like Massachusetts and Rhode Island
that are still around. But none of them are as famous
as the Washington Square arch for sure.
Stanford was born in 1853 and was the son of a renowned
Shakespearean scholar who, like many Shakespearean scholars, did
not have much money. However, he became an architect

(11:57):
apprentice at the age of 18 and toured Europe to learn more
about building styles and when he returns to the States, he
started his own firm and rose toprominence in his field.
Along the way. He married Bessie Smith in 1884,
had some children and became heavily invested in many of the
the clubs for rich and affluent men in the city.

(12:17):
He held some influence over groups such as the Metropolitan
Club, the Players Club, the the got to be careful with this one,
the Knickerbocker Club. What is that?
Well, knickerbockers are socks, so I don't know.
A sock club. I think it's just a term.
I think it is for them. That's weird.

(12:37):
Pants maybe. Maybe pants, I don't know.
There's something that goes on your legs of that I'm positive.
I but I think they're socks because the Red Sox used to be,
well, they were called the Stockings, but I think they used
to be called the the Boston Knickerbockers.
So, yeah, something like that. All of which had sent out denied

(13:01):
applications to our troublemaker.
Harry K thought, Oh. Man.
He came to the city, he wanted to rub elbows in the in the
Knickerbocker Club, and they were like, get the hell out of
here. We don't want you here, huh, You
troublemaker? Yeah.
And after Thaw had some negativeinteractions with Stanford,
White, Thaw attributed his refusal from these clubs to

(13:22):
White's influence. I guess they did not like each
other. And who's to say if that's
actually why or or not, But I'm sure that he was at least heard.
Yeah. You know, although I I will say
in my opinion, it's probably more likely that they just
didn't like thaws crazy antics. Yeah, very fair.

(13:45):
He had gotten into another rich boys club known as the Union
League club, but he was kicked out because he rode a horse into
their building, like up their steps and threw their front door
into the building. And they said that that was
ungentlemanly. That would be ungentlemanly.
To ride a horse into the club. I agree with that statement.
So I feel like they were just like, no, we just don't like

(14:06):
this guy. He's kind of a Dick.
Yeah, So. And he was kind of a Dick more
than kind of. But no, definitely.
It was Stanford White, the ginger with a huge mustache that
did it. And he's ginger.
Not the consequences of your ownactions.
He's got a big old mustache. Yeah, he's ginger.
And I think, Oh, God, What? What did they use to describe
him? They said, they said he he's

(14:28):
boyish but refined or something.But but but brawny.
Boyish, but brawny, something like that.
I don't know, cute. And I was like, OK.
Sounds like a stud. He was Stanford, though was not
without his own a bit of scandal.
He was seen as an eccentric man who collected artwork and had a

(14:48):
great obsession with sex. A man that I can relate to.
I wouldn't say that just yet. He was story.
Never mind. He was storied to be at a party
in 1895, which was the wedding anniversary for a polo player,
John Elliott Cowden. Many famous men were here
besides White, including famous artist Charles Dana Gibson and

(15:11):
inventor Nikola Tesla. But notably absent from the
guest list was Cowden's wife, even though it was their wedding
anniversary. They're like, Oh my God, did you
hear about this great party yourhusband was throwing?
I was wondering where you were at.
And she's like, what are you talking about?
It was all dudes he invited. He invited like 24 dudes over
for his wedding anniversary. That's.

(15:31):
So weird. It definitely is.
It's. Giving Sausage Party.
And was there a reason maybe? Boink, boink.
They did, Not that we know of, but maybe, who knows?
They were served 16 courses, each of with each of which came
with champagne. So you got a glass of champagne
for all 16 courses. Oh my God.

(15:51):
And at the end, with all the menquite sauced, a giant pie was
wheeled into the room. And then out of the pie popped a
scantily clad 16 year old girl by the name of Susie Johnson.
I hope that's an alias. No, I think that was a real
name. It's the early 1900s.
I think just everyone's called stuff like that.
Yeah, my God, of course it was a16 year old.

(16:12):
So this story made its way into papers of the day and was used
by the British public as a way to show how the appetites of the
rich were being seated in both food and in women.
Like, it was kind of seen as like, like, oh, the rich are
debaucherous and and sinful. And I mean, they they are, but
so is everyone. There's a guy that keeps on

(16:36):
coming up that I haven't mentioned, but he was also part
of the Whiskey Ring. His name's Anthony Comstock.
So he was this like. I remember you saying that name.
Yeah, He was like, he was like this government position that he
he like LED a crusade against vice and he was involved in a
lot of this. Like he was always in New York

(16:58):
being like these, these fucking guys are all like all these rich
people. On top of Madison Square Garden,
Stanford White had put a naked figure of a goddess shooting an
arrow. OK.
And Anthony Comstock hated it somuch.
That he went and put no clothes on her.
Yes, he got he got it ordered that to put actual clothes on

(17:20):
the statue. And then like they had like a
really bad winter storm and theyflew off and they were.
Listen dude, she shoots the arrow with her tits.
You cannot. So people were upset at Stanford
White partially because of this story and partially because of
things like that. They saw him as like, salacious.
Not to mention this dinner cost more than 2000 times the average

(17:41):
salary. So.
There was a bunch of stuff it I think that was on there and that
had oysters. I think it was the first course.
There was like bonbons. The whole menu, when I saw it
was French. I don't know if Cowden was
French or not, but the whole menu was in French, so I don't
know. And rumors began to spiral that
Susie was the victim of all the men in attendance that night,

(18:02):
that they had defiled her and, and, and that she had actually
disappeared afterwards, althoughshe popped up in a small town
years later. And this was, this was reported
on by Pulitzer, which we also mentioned in the Whiskey Ring.
So I've learned a lot about late1800s history.
Yeah, that poor girl. She probably had a lot happened

(18:23):
to her that night. Although I will say this is
during the reign of yellow journalism, which we learned
about in the Thomas Ince case aswell.
And what is written in papers cannot be taken at face value.
And so this story, there's a likelihood that like the pie
thing never even happened because it was just like it was

(18:44):
just in paper. So it's really hard to verify.
That being said, there are multiple other accounts from
people close to him that say Stanford White did indeed have
an appetite for sex well beyond his wife that manifested in what
would definitely be far too young women nowadays.
And he was in his like 40s. So you know 1617 year old women
or you know. You could be their dad.

(19:06):
It was like legal and like, likekind of OK, like socially then,
but it's still weird. And I mean, it's definitely not
OK now. Yeah, we're definitely.
Yeah, we don't support that now.Yeah, and, and one of these far
too young women of which he was interested in would play a large

(19:26):
part in his death, a young and famously pretty girl by the name
of Evelyn Nesbitt. Evelyn was born in either 1884
or 1885 in Pennsylvania. We don't know because the
records would just were destroyed in a fire.
And Evelyn herself did not know because her mother would often
lie about her age to get around child labor laws.

(19:49):
So she was like, I think I don'teven know how old I am.
I was either born in 84 or 85, which is funny to me.
The Nesbitt family was doing moderately all right
financially, as her father was an attorney.
You know, they made do. But when he died suddenly in
1893, the family was left destitute and Evelyn had to join

(20:09):
the working force, originally helping her mom as a counter
clerk at a department store. An artist came in one day when
Evelyn was about 14 and remarkedon her natural beauty and asked
to use the girl as a model for aportrait.
Because the artist was a woman, Evelyn's mother agreed and the
artist paid the the young girl awhole dollar for the session,

(20:31):
which it was like the equivalentof $31.00 today.
So you're 14, that's not bad. This quickly snowballed into
many other artists asking for her modelling services and
eventually she decided to pursueit as a full time venture and
looked to make it in the big time of New York City, moving to
the Big Apple in November of 1900 when she was just 16 or 15

(20:55):
depending. Through some connections from
artists in Pennsylvania, Evelyn started booking gigs in her new
city, first just for paintings, but quickly transitioned into
the now burgeoning realm of photography as well and has
multiple well known photo shootsincluding posing on a bearskin
rug and in Charles Dana Gibson'sfamous work, The Gibson Girls.

(21:19):
Evelyn is the model for the mostfamous of these, where her
trademark huge hair is shaped into a question mark around her
profile figure. For those of you at home, or
watching the video at least, I'll put a picture of her Gibson
Girl drawing right here. Also remember Gibson was also at
that that girl in a pie party. And May and.

(21:44):
Maybe how Stanford White first heard about her or, you know,
maybe he saw one of her many works she was getting.
She was getting a lot of work asa.
Lot of Or he was like asking around who can pop out of my
pie, and he was like, oh, EvelynNesbitt can pop out of a pie.
Well, I I, you know, I don't know if there were any more
pies. Yeah, for sure.

(22:04):
Yeah. There's swings, though.
We'll find out then. In May of 19 O1, Evelyn made the
leap from model to actress when she was cast in what was the
most popular Broadway musical ofthe turn of the century,
Floridora. I love Floridora.
You do not know. I listen to the music.
It is not not good. I mean, maybe of it's time, but

(22:26):
it is an Edwardian musical and you know, I just don't think
those are. I think I'll wait till Rodgers
and Hammerstein before I get into musical.
I could not even tell you one Edwardian musical.
And you shouldn't. They're bad.
Evelyn joined Floridora as a chorus girl, which were these
chorus girls were famous at the time and dubbed the Floridora
girls. The Floridora girls all had to

(22:48):
be exactly 5 feet 4 inches tall in 130 lbs, and they were
rotated out often with 70 women passing through the there was a
sextet. There were 6 rolls, 6 Floridora
chorus girls. They left quickly because they
were often proposed to by wealthy audience members, and it
is said that the original 6 all married a millionaire within the

(23:10):
first year of the show's run. Damn, I'm too tall.
I could not have been a Floridora girl.
Could not have been a Floridora girl.
And yeah, so she joined as one of them at the bright young age
of 16. Yeah.
And this musical ran for a while.
It first opened in 1899 in the West End and then it had it had
a revival in like 2006 on the West End.

(23:32):
Didn't need to do. That I bet it was terrible.
Just listen to music. It's very like imagine, imagine
any what's that thing a Victrola?
It's like that wind up thing with the Big Horn that plays a a
shellac record. Imagine any of the music you'd
think coming out of that, that'swhat it sounded.
Like that sounds boring. It was terrible.
Evelyn also had a chance to meeta millionaire though, during her

(23:55):
tenure, and that millionaire wasStanford White.
White knew another of the Floridora Floridora girls and
got her to arrange a lunch with Evelyn.
Although she originally thought this would be a large social
lungeon, she was quite surprisedwhen it was an intimate small
lunch for just four people, including her and White, and it

(24:17):
was at his apartment. Oh, gross.
She had a friend there, at leastI.
Know, but it's still yucky. After the lunch, Stanford showed
Evelyn and the other chorus girla special room in his house.
It's. Giving 50 Shades.
Which may or may not have been like Christian Gray's special
room not. At 16, Oh my God.

(24:37):
Stanford's was painted all greenwith a red velvet swing hanging
from the center of the room. He had a velvet.
He had a swing room. The swing was velvet.
Yeah. How could you clean that?
Red velvet probably didn't. All the better for the smell in,
am I Right? 'Cause, Sean.
You know, he was doing some weird stuff.
OK, you knew he was. Yeah, he had a velvet.

(24:58):
Swing. Evelyn and her friend took turns
being pushed on the swing, to everyone's general delights.
But Please remember that she is 16.
Yeah. So it's all kinda kinda weird,
ha ha. Mr. Stan, you're so funny.
Evelyn and Stanford, who she affectionately called Stanny,
became fast friends and Stanfordeven one over the girl's mother,

(25:20):
who was at first reluctant but soon allowed Evelyn to spend
much time with Stanny at variousparties that he hosted.
This could be because he was a joyous, jolly sort of man, but
also could have something to do with the fact that he would give
many expensive gifts to Evelyn and provide a lot of monetary
assistance to her and her mother.

(25:41):
So I don't know if if you know this, but this behavior is
called grooming. This is grooming.
Correct. One such instance, about two
months after Evelyn had met Stanny, Evelyn's mother
mentioned she wanted to travel by train to visit some family
back in Pennsylvania, but bemoaned that Oh no, I don't

(26:02):
have the money to do so immediately.
Stanford offered to pay not onlyfor her train ticket, but all
the necessary arrangements for the trip.
Soon after Whites. Soon after she left, White
struck, inviting Evelyn over to his house for a soiree one
night. When she arrived, however, she
found herself alone with White. He said that unfortunately

(26:26):
everyone else he invited had decided last minute to cancel
of. Course.
Classic trick. I got tricked into a date in
high school that way. I was supposed to meet someone
for a birthday party and I got there and she's like all my
friends cancelled on the movie and I was like, well, looks like
we're going to a movie alone. That's weird.
It was Evelyn first made to leave.

(26:48):
As, you know, you do. But he said, well, you know,
dinner's already prepared, right?
And it'd be a shame for all thisfood to go to waste.
So they sat down, They ate and drank champagne.
A lot of champagne, at which time Evelyn remembers not much
before waking up to her body floating above her.

(27:10):
But it wasn't some out of body experience or lucid dream, it
was just her reflection in the mirror above Stanny's bed.
Whoa, he was a freak. She was new.
It was not easy to get mirrors back then.
Well, he's also rich, so I mean.I know, but.
She was nude and so was white next to her and the blood on her

(27:32):
leg, Oh my God, ended any doubtsabout what had occurred.
And she began to cry, which wokeStanford, who supposedly gave
her a kimono to cover herself and said, and I quote, don't
cry, kittens, it's all over now.You belong to me, which I think

(27:53):
we could all agree that that's gross.
This. Whole thing's.
Gross and awful. And Sanford White is much older
than her. Evelyn even remarked so to her
friend after that first lunch. Or she said he's quite old and
he was, and although it definitely is deplorable based
just on the power dynamic and the age difference and how he

(28:17):
groomed her with money and gifts, Evelyn thought she was
actually into Stanford White even after this first.
She was not happy about this, but she had told herself that
she had feelings for him in someway.
So they continued to have a romantic relationship on and off
for the next two years. It makes me sick to my stomach.

(28:41):
Yeah, this is. I mean, you look at it, anything
in the 1900s, you're like, wow. Yeah, well, what's just like
what's gross is this still happens today, so.
Yeah. And but I'm just saying this
time it was like. Oh yeah, that was super.
It was like no one was going to get in trouble for this someone.
Might be like, you shouldn't do that, but no one was like,

(29:03):
that's disgusting. Yeah.
So yes, and unfortunately, yes, it does happen today.
Evelyn, of course, was a hot commodity though.
I mean, she was a very famous model.
So she was getting a lot of attention elsewhere and there
was an opportunity from other men more her age and knowing

(29:24):
that she could never be Stanley's wife since he already
had one of those, she did entertain them at one point.
A young newspaper sketch artist who would later go on to be one
of the greatest stage actors of his time.
John Barrymore, the brother of Ethel Barrymore, for those of
you who are familiar with famousearly 1900s.

(29:45):
Any relation to Drew? I don't know, maybe, but John
Barrymore, he was 21 at the time, and he showed interest in
Evelyn. But quickly Evelyn's mother in
Stanford conspired to end it before it even began and got
Evelyn to hastily agree to go toa boarding school in New Jersey,

(30:06):
which was effective at ending the relationship and never went
beyond there. Another male suitor was Mr.
Monroe, who attended almost 40 performances of the latest
Evelyn Nesbitt Broadway vehicle,Wild Rose, in which she was the
star. Not creepy at all.
Yeah, this was also normal at the time.
The same thing with the Floridora girls.
Like, I mean, guys would come and they would like send, they

(30:28):
would send gifts to them and eventually they'd all get
married. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 40
performances is a bit much, but yeah.
Yeah, I don't know about how many, either.
It couldn't have been that long.He had to come to like most of
them, right? That's crazy.
I don't even watch. I don't like to watch a movie
much more than once unless I really, really like it.
So Mr. Monroe sent her lavish gifts and was constantly asking

(30:50):
for a date through the cards on flowers or chocolates.
But the response was always a polite decline.
Finally, though, a mutual friend.
Through a mutual friend, Mr. Monroe got a lunch date
scheduled, and when he arrived, he kissed the hem of her dress,
declared her the prettiest girl in New York, and also revealed
himself to really be millionairePlayboy Harry K Thaw.

(31:15):
OK, so this is where the problemlies.
He needed to watch the movie Just Friends with Ryan Reynolds
because then he would know a lunch date puts you in the
friend zone. The movie that would come out 90
years later, Yes. Well, I'll surprise you.
He did not stay in the friend zone, but.
Damn. But yeah, it is thought that he

(31:36):
might have targeted Evelyn not only for her, her beauty and
looks, but also to spite Stanford White, who he still
held a grudge for. And he knew they were close and
he was still like that. This guy didn't.
This guy made it so I couldn't get any of these famous rich boy
clubs. So I'm going to date his
underage girlfriends. So wait, how old is Henry K Thaw
at this point? He's about the same age as

(31:57):
Stanford. Oh, gross.
He's like late 30s early 40s. Right.
So yeah, he might. Was he older?
I'd have to go back and look, but yeah, he he's old.
They're both old. Still not age appropriate.
Yeah, Thaw wormed his way in deeper when Evelyn got a bad
case of appendicitis in 19 O 3 and Thaw rushed her into a

(32:20):
hospital and paid for her life saving surgery.
While she recovered, Thaw talkedto Evelyn's mom into the both of
them coming on a trip to Europe with him, a trip that Evelyn
would later regret saying yes to.
On this trip, Thaw sought to frantically travel across the
country, which soon tired Evelyn's poor mother, and he

(32:43):
would also instigate like littletips between them to try and
drive them a little apart day byday, to the point that Evelyn's
mother said she wanted to leave.So the pair just left her in
London, said OK, you go back to the States, we're going to
continue on to Paris. So it was just Thaw and Evelyn
from then on out in Paris, Thaw asked Nesbitt to marry him,

(33:07):
which she declined. Harry Thaw had this like
obsession with female chastity and prudishness of.
Course he didn't. He was in talks with Anthony
Comstock. They were kind of like buddy
Buddy. So he was in many ways the
antithesis to Stanford White, atleast in that way.
Evelyn knew this and admitted that she couldn't marry him

(33:30):
because she was no longer a virgin.
Thaw then set about interrogating her about the
matter for hours until she had told him everything about her
relationship with Stanford White, including that night when
she drank the champagne and was taken advantage of.
And this really messed with Harry Thaw supposedly because

(33:53):
throughout the entire ordeal, hewas really practicing his active
listening by shouting things like my God and poor child and
Oh no, over and over and over again.
As he I guess she said he was like making like a really crazy
show of it. But even then, after she was
done telling him, he forced her to tell it again, asking for her

(34:13):
not to leave out any details. Oh perfect, Yep OK and then just
re traumatize her. She did so perfect.
And just in case you started thinking, Oh well, maybe Thaw's
a good guy. He actually.
No, he's not a good guy. He's a piece of shit.
Just in case you were like, oh, he cares about her.
I will ruin that if that's somehow what she thought.
Because you see, he then took Nesbitt on a weird tour like of

(34:36):
sites that specifically focused on female virgin martyrdom, like
the birth place of Joan of Arc for one, where he actually left
the following inscription. Inscription in the visitor book.
And I quote she would not have been a virgin if Stanford White
had been around Jesus. Christ.

(34:57):
So that's not the bad part, however, at least not the worst
part. Because in a castle in Austria
Hungary, he did exactly what he said he despised Stanford White
for doing when he broke into Evelyn's room at night, whipped
her with a rawhide whip. What the fuck?
And then repeatedly whipped her with a rawhide whip repeatedly
and sexually assaulted her. Where'd he get the whip?

(35:21):
He had a thing about whips. You'll find out.
Oh. He was, he was a freak.
Later in a trial. They oh, wait, no, he wasn't the
one. No, he's the one that's
supposedly approved. Yeah, Stanford White.
That's a freak. Nasty.
Yeah, he's the one. He's like, at least he's open
about being like, I like. Sex.
Why did he beat her? Because she wasn't a virgin or
just cuz he's fucked? Cuz he's into whipping.

(35:42):
I think he just likes whipping people.
Yeah, I think he likes whips. So and hey, here's the thing.
You might have been able to findsomeone who also liked Whips as
much as you. Those people exist.
But instead you did it to this. You did it to this poor girl.
Yeah, after you were all upset about it from somebody else, you
just go and do the same thing, which is gross.

(36:03):
Yeah, it's fucked. Up afterwards on the trip and
when they returned to America, Thaw supposedly was very
apologetic and continuously lovebombed Evelyn until she agreed
to marry him. Oh my God.
And the married life continued to be underwhelming for Evelyn,

(36:24):
who now found herself under the influence of Thaw's mother at
every turn. Who she you know, she babied and
controlled Thaw, and then now she was just doing the same to
this poor young woman. And under it all, she still kept
a friendship with Stanford White.
But Thaw, of course, knew nothing about it because he
still harbored a hatred for the man and and what he thought he

(36:48):
did to his wife years before. Welfare.
Yeah. But then you did the same thing
to her so. Yeah, but the whole thing is he
might have sought her out in thefirst place because he didn't
like Stanford White. So it's like it's it's just kind
of a self fulfilling prophecy. But now he's like, he's using
this as a reason to be even moreupset at him just because he

(37:09):
hated the guy to begin with. Yeah, and that's why I went on
that fateful night in 19 O 6 when the couple were at Madison
Square Garden watching Manziel Champagne.
And when Evelyn saw White enter the audience, she told Thaw that
she wanted to leave. Others were actually doing so
because, admittedly, Manziel Champagne is supposedly not a

(37:31):
very good show. Everyone was.
Like, was it also an Edwardian musical?
It was, yeah. Everyone was leaving because
they were like, this is boring and sucks.
Originally, Thaw agreed to leavewith her, but as they were
walking to the exit, Evelyn got distracted talking to a friend
and Thaw slipped away, heading straight for Stanford.

(37:51):
He pulled the revolver from his coat and fired three shots, one
hitting his shoulder and two to the forehead and face area,
killing White immediately. Then he raised his gun to the
sky and proclaimed in front of everyone in attendance.
I did it because he ruined my wife.
He had it coming to him. He took advantage of the girl

(38:14):
and then abandoned her. Thank you for telling everyone
my trauma. Since since he had done the same
thing, I guess he was just more worried about the abandonment
part rather than the ruining part.
I, I I don't know. I think it was just another.
I mean, he already hated him. He just really wanted to shoot
this guy. That was what it was.

(38:36):
Also by the way, he was wearing a thick woolen overcoat that he
had the revolver in. It was a hot summer night and
everyone was like why the guy is?
Why is this guy fucking wearing a coat the whole time?
Like I like to sweat. So he could have the revolver
because there's a whole thing where like people think it what
like like there's a, there's a decent chance that it was

(38:59):
premeditated this well. That sounds 100% premeditated.
Stanford White, he he designed the building and he rented out
the entire top floor of Madison Square Garden.
So he was definitely probably gonna be there.
And he was known to show up to the shows that were playing on
the rooftop. Yeah.
So. No, this was 100% premeditated.
Yeah, and he said later that he thought that Stanford White had

(39:21):
like, thugs that were out to gethim and that's why he carried
the pistol. I don't think that's true.
I whatever, dude. Like, from my view of it.
And I, I think that Stanford White was, you know, like it's
gross that he was into sleeping with 16 year olds, but it was
socially allowed at the time, I guess.

(39:44):
Like I still think it's gross, but I don't think he was
necessarily like some evil mastermind or anything.
Now he was just a fucking perv. He's just, he's just a
pedophile, but. He's just a pervy old man, but
at a time when you wouldn't be called a pedophile for sleeping
with 16. Year old, right?
No, it was so it was fun, but. But in retrospect, yeah, it's
fucking. Gross.
He's just a nasty guy. So people at first, actually,

(40:05):
when he, when Thaw shot Stanford, everyone in the
audience thought it was like an elaborate prank because it was
very common for rich people to do stuff like that at the time,
like just to do something crazy like this as like a joke, like a
ha ha, like, oh, you thought I shot this guy?
Hilarious. But when they realized he was
actually dead, they obviously freaked the fuck out and the

(40:26):
show director for some reason tried to start up the show
again. Hello, the show must go on.
I'm saying that he that he must have really taken that but
literally, but no one told him. There's definitely some
exceptions. Murders, one of those you don't
have to continue. Imagine someone got shot how we
do SpongeBob the Musical, and they're like no, no, no, no.
No, they're like guys, it's a Bikini Bottom day.
Yeah, best, best day ever is coming up.

(40:47):
OK, let's let's at least run through the first act and then
we'll get this body. Out, then we'll get out.
No, you don't do that you just end it so quickly thought I mean
he was in a bunch of people thought was grabbed by a man and
led to the elevator to take him down to a police like downstairs
where there would be police officers somewhere.
And on his way out he asked by Evelyn who looked and supposedly
said look at the fix you're in to which he replied I have

(41:12):
probably saved your life before being arrested and charged with
murder. Obviously.
While in prison, Thaw used his money to avoid the worst of his
conditions as he was allowed to sleep in a a full big brass bed
rather than just a cot, and he ate meals catered by the
fanciest restaurants in the city, including a place called

(41:35):
Delmonico's. I guess that was if it, I don't
know if it's still around, but that was mentioned a lot.
That was one of his favorite restaurants.
He also used his influence to purchase the best lawyers
available to him. The trial that was to come would
be highly reported on and, as I said, dubbed the Trial of the
Century, which once again was only seven years in.

(41:57):
Lewis Delafield, Thaw's first lawyer, originally wanted to
cooperate with the District Attorney, William T Jerome, who
was acting as prosecutor in the case, to get Thaw declared
legally insane. Since Thaw murdered White
publicly in front of countless witnesses and made a declaration
afterwards, it seemed like the only way for Thaw to avoid

(42:19):
execution. Only one small problem, though.
That's if Thaw would not be labeled as insane.
He was like, I'm not insane, I am not crazy, don't tell people
that. And he spoke publicly, telling
anyone who'd listen he's like, no, I'm saying I'm not insane.
That's bullshit. Like immediately countering what
his lawyer was trying to do. So obviously, he quickly

(42:42):
dismissed Delafield and hired a new lawyer just three weeks in
in John Gleeson and Gleason instead sought to paint the
scenario as they were like he hetalked with the matriarch of the
Thaw family and and they were like, you know what?
Let's not say he's crazy. That'll look bad on the family,
right? Just say he was temporarily
insane. Oh yeah, that'll be better.

(43:04):
He just had a bad day. Yeah, so he had a bout to
temporary insanity that caused his client to commit the murder,
which was referred to as the time as a a brainstorm.
I've had a brainstorm before. Well, at least he didn't kill
anybody that I know of. This plan of action proved poor
though, as the prosecution called a witness that had
claimed to see Thaw pull the revolver from his pocket earlier

(43:25):
in the night and said that Thaw said find and kill that some
expletive that was deleted from the record before daylight,
showing that there was some definite premeditation in it and
he didn't just go crazy for a little bit and and shoot him.
Gleason saw that he was losing and actually withdrew himself

(43:47):
from the case, in which case a now third defense lawyer took
over. And I don't know if this is
French or not. I'm going to say Delphin del
Mas. I would say Delphine.
But it could be Delphine del Mas, I don't care.
I'm going to say Delphine del Mas.
And if you want to come for me for that, then fine, I guess.

(44:09):
So the third lawyer, Dolphin Dumas, who had never lost a
case, he was famous for having never lost a case.
He was a famous lawyer from San Francisco.
He stepped in, and he instead sought to discredit Stanford
White, paint him as such a villain that the jury would
excuse his murder. And his key witness was Evelyn

(44:32):
Nesbitt. She reluctantly took the stand
and recounted the night with Stanford White saying, and this
is a direct quote. When I came to, when I came to
myself, I was greatly frightenedand started to scream.
Mr. White came and tried to quiet me.
As I sat up, I saw mirrors all over.

(44:52):
I began to scream again. And Mr. White asked me to keep
quiet, saying that it was all over.
When he threw the kimono over me, he left the room.
I screamed harder than ever. I don't remember much of
anything after that. He took me home and I sat up all
night crying. And she also told told the court

(45:13):
that she had been drugged on topof the drinking in bed.
You could have. Put a drug in her drink.
We'll we'll find out later that her last glass of champagne had
tasted bitter before she had passed out.
The prosecution then produced anaffidavit during the cross
examination that supposedly Evelyn had signed after her

(45:36):
return from Europe that was for a case against Harry Thaw, her
now husband, and detailed his assault of her in the castle.
The defense and Evelyn said thatthis had been fabricated.
Later on, though, Evelyn would admit that she lied on the stand
at the behest of her husband andlawyer to help their case.

(45:57):
She said that she was not drugged that night, but she did
drink a lot of champagne. And that she admitted to crying,
but that she never screamed out loud afterwards.
And that she did write and sign that affidavit after her return
from the trip because she had confessed what had happened to
Stanford White and he had actually gotten her in contact
with an attorney so that she could form a case against Thaw.

(46:19):
But then she had second thoughtsabout pursuing the case and.
Then she married him. And then she married him.
It is also speculated that Harry's mother paid Evelyn
$25,000 for her testimony in thetrial to help manipulate the
story and to help her son. Which I didn't even put this in
here, but there were actually multiple instances of his mother

(46:39):
just using money to bribe peopleto not.
I mean, yeah. I mean, it's true with,
especially at this time, all rich families.
Oh yeah. They would just do that.
They still do it. Yeah, you just throw money at it
until they go away. And unfortunately it works.
It does work because people needmoney.
So Evelyn being an actress, and because the events were almost
definitely traumatizing her for sure, she didn't have to reach

(47:01):
far for it. She won over the jurors with her
emotional testimony. The prosecution, sensing that
the jury was leaning towards thedefense, then tried to get Thaw
officially declared insane by something which is frivolously
called a lunacy panel, which thejudge allowed.
He's like, OK, fine, send this guy to a lunacy panel.

(47:21):
But they found that Thorpe was perfectly sane, so he was not
crazy and you couldn't stop it. Based on that, in his closing
statement, Dumas claimed that ifhis client was insane, then, and
this is another direct quote, call it dementia Americana.
That is the species of insanity which makes every American man

(47:42):
believe his home to be sacred. That is the species of insanity
which makes him believe the honor of his daughter is sacred.
That is the species of insanity which makes him believe the
honor of his wife is sacred. That is the species of insanity
which makes him believe that whosoever invades his home, that

(48:03):
whosoever stains the virtue of his threshold, has violated the
highest of human laws, and must appeal to the mercy of God, if
mercy there be for him anywhere in the universe.
Thanks, I like the British accent even though they're
definitely American. He could have been British.
You know, he's a lawyer, You know, they, they, sometimes they

(48:24):
fake stuff like that to sound fancy.
That's true. All right.
They do do that. You're lucky I didn't do like
Southern lawyer. Now I say, I say, I say I'm
sorry. The highest of human law was
most of the appeal to the mercy of God.
No. So that would have been a worse
choice. After 47 hours of deliberation,
the jury came back deadlocked at7 votes for conviction and five

(48:47):
for acquittal, and a new trial had to be ordered.
At the second trial, there was much less attention, media
coverage, fanfare, and the defense switched back to arguing
just not guilty by means of insanity.
They were like, all right, nevermind, We'll just he's crazy.
Just say he's crazy. This time, Evelyn and others
took the stand, claiming that Thaw had a long standing history

(49:10):
of abuse and crazy behavior. Which I mean, I believe.
Yeah, some of the testimony was weird where they had like, one
of his math teachers from high school come back and be like,
yeah, he used to walk in like zigzag lines.
And I'm like, what? That was a big one.
I was like, does that make somebody crazy?
If you just. I mean, why can't you walk
straight? Sounds weird to me.
All right. I guess you're on their side,
not on their side. I'm kidding.

(49:32):
I'm kidding. And then some of it was like,
his mom got up there and be like, OK, so yeah, he's got,
like, multiple uncles who becamementally and feeble and ended up
in sanatoriums. And they were like, OK.
And they were like, oh, also he was, like, violent.
And he really likes whipping people.
They produce like, a jeweled whip that he had.
He had a jeweled handled whip. This guy's crazy.

(49:53):
And this time they got their notguilty verdict by means of
insanity. But the judge still deemed Harry
a danger to society. I would agree.
So he ordered him confined to a mental institution until he was
deemed fit for release. Seven years later, after Harry
Thaw escaped his institution andfled to Canada with the help of
his mother, he was finally called back in front of a court

(50:16):
that deemed him sane enough to be released to the general
public. So after his release Evelyn did
officially divorce him in 1915 and she quickly remarried her
Broadway dancing partner Jack Clifford.
They though would divorce not long after that and she would
never remarry. She did sign a multi picture

(50:38):
deal with Fox Studios and actually graced the the early
silver screen for multiple yearsbefore she was deemed too old by
Hollywood, which happened to a lot of women and she spent some
years in the cabarets throughoutthe eastern coast and she
eventually moved to LA where shelived the rest of her years

(50:59):
modestly as a sculptor and a sculpting teacher.
In 1955, her likeness graced thescreen in a dramatic retelling
of her entanglement with White and Thaw titled The Girl in the
Red Velvet Swing, which sparked interest again for the case, at
least for a bit. Although the movie was a
critical and financial flop, shedid eventually write a book

(51:20):
about the events of her life. And in this book, she describes
how Stanford White was supposedly the only man she ever
loved and that although he she did admit that he wronged her
and that he did pursue young women, of which she was one,
that she didn't let that blind. Her description of him is, I

(51:42):
think was the quote is she's like, I know that what he did
was bad, but I think that he actually was like a great man.
Well, unfortunately, unfortunately you can't control
who you love. And also he brainwashed her.
Yeah, so that's The thing is I'mlike she.
Thought she loved him but. And then he died and then he got
murdered. So it's it's hard to say how
that would have happened. But yeah, you know, I I think

(52:05):
that that he was gross and a pervert, but but I don't, I
think that Harry Thaw is the more villainous person if if you
had to choose. They're both bad.
But they're both bad. At least the infra white didn't
whip her. That's true.
You know, there's that at least.Evelyn Nesbitt passed away in
January of 1967, with almost no one knowing just how famous she

(52:30):
was in her youth. Harry K Thaw continued being
crazy and actually just a year after he was deemed sane, he was
arrested again after he kidnapped a 19 year old boy
named Fred Gump by telling him he wanted to to help him through
college, luring him to a city, trapping him in a hotel, and

(52:51):
then whip it like undressing himand whipping him severely.
This is a weird kank. Yeah, I don't know.
So after Gump went to the policeand told them they found Thaw.
And Thaw, when they found him, had attempted suicide by
slashing his own wrists and his own throat.

(53:11):
But somehow. You gotta go deeper dude.
Yeah, somehow he was still aliveand he was once again found to
be insane and confined to a mental institution where he was
once again deemed sane 7 years later and released in 1924,
after which he decided he his mother was dead.
At this point he decided, you know what, I'm done with New

(53:32):
York and he moved to Florida andlived on a lavish estate and
died of a heart attack just daysafter his 76th birthday in 1947.
In his will, he divided up his 1,000,000 dollars, $1 million
estate and left Evelyn Nesbitt $10,000, or about 1% of his net

(53:52):
worth. Well, they were divorced.
Yeah, I didn't even go into she she supposedly had a child that
was his that she said was conceived during a conjugal
visit while he was in the Asseinasylum the first time.
And he just, he was like, Nope, not my kid.
And he denied it forever. So he never helped her anything

(54:14):
with that until he died. Well, I guess supposedly he said
that he was sending her money every now and again.
I don't know if it's true, probably wasn't, but yeah, she
was paid $10,000 for the movie. The girl in the oh wow, the girl
in the velvet. The red velvet swing.
Well I'm glad they compensated her for her story.
Yeah, that movie cost $1.3 million to make in 19. 55.

(54:38):
Yeah, but it only made 1.3 in the box office, so.
Wonder where we can watch it? Oh, it's on something I'm.
Sure. You think they got it on Hulu?
TLC Oh no TCM not TLCTTLC. That'd be a weird move for them.
TCM The story of the murder of Stanford White might be almost

(54:59):
120 years old, but the love thatthe rich have to be debaucherous
and ruin lives is still with us.Evelyn Nesbitt was the victim of
two powerful men who are more than 20 years her senior, who
took advantage of a teenager. Harry K Thaw took it to another

(55:19):
level when he let his anger at Stanford White over his ousting
from social clubs grow to a murderous rage over a woman who
he had also assaulted. He may have spent 14 years
locked in the nuthouse, but he never spent one day in federal
prison and he got to die a free man in his mansion in Florida.

(55:46):
The only good thing I can see about this is is that at Harry
Cathaw's funeral there were lessthan 20 mourners.
For a man who still held such wealth, none of his siblings
even made it. Wow.
So well, one of them was. A lot of them were dead.
But yeah, yeah, he's one of a lot of them.
I hope that if there is an afterlife that Harry K Thaw is

(56:09):
spending it getting his ass whipped with a rawhide whip like
the one he used on Evelyn. Somewhere in the depths, deepest
depths of hell. And that is the story of Harry K
Thaw and the murder of Stanford White, all at the middle of a

(56:32):
terrible, disgusting old man love triangle with Evelyn
Nesbitt. Poor Evelyn.
There's a lot of trauma. Yeah, I mean, luckily it seemed
she like I also been going to this.
She she afterwards became like Harry Thaw was a big cocaine
addict, I guess. And after the trial, she she

(56:57):
began to also struggle heavily with substance abuse issues with
alcohol. And she she was having like some
pain and one of her friends gaveher a shot, which happened to be
morphine. So she got addicted to opioids
on top of alcohol and it was pretty bad for a while until she

(57:20):
actually attempted suicide by like drinking cleaner, I think
at one point. And she went to rehab, she got
clean. And then she like, while she was
like recovering from her issues,she like went in this whole like
spiritual phase. She like learned a bunch about
like other religions from the world and just like kind of put

(57:41):
her life into new perspective. And and from then on out, she
was pretty, pretty solid. So she can, she came out good on
the other side, which is, you know, a good success story.
At least it it, it ended terribly for the two men who
abused her. And then it ended probably the
some of the best it could for her.
So that's good to hear. And yeah, I think that's all the

(58:05):
the asides I have. I mean, I'm looking at the clock
here and this episode's already over an hour before we edit, So
I'm sure this is on the longer side.
So I hope you liked it even though it was long.
I think it was information Rich.I liked it.
Yeah, and, and, and if you likedit at home, it'd be great if
you'd show it by leaving a, a review.

(58:27):
What? I don't know, the way you said
it was funny. Leaving a review.
You can leave a a a star review on Spotify or an Apple podcast.
You can write a review on Apple Podcasts and you can also just
like follow on whatever pod catcher you you may be listening

(58:47):
to. If you're that one person who's
on like like player FM and you're like, yeah, I'm still
here and I'm going to, I'm goingto give you a like, but please
do that'd be great. You can also watch the videos.
They're a video podcast and looklike we had been kind of fuzzy
recently until I cleaned the lens on the camera or the the
thing in front of the camera. So this is a lot higher quality

(59:08):
today and we'll be going forward, I guess.
But you can watch those videos on Spotify.
Spotify is really putting a lot of money into their video
podcasting area. They're seeing a lot of of that
in the future. I don't know if people actually
watch them, but you can do it there or you can watch on
YouTube at White Collars, Red Hands.
You can also check us out on ourother socials.
That's facebook.com/white Collars Red Hands Twitter at
White Collars pod, Instagram at White Collars under score, red

(59:34):
hands TikTok at white collars red hands.
If you want to get in touch withus, you can DSDM us there or you
can send us an e-mail at white collars red [e-mail] or
go to our website. I got it said white collars red
hands so much, but it's white collars redhands.com and drop us
a line there. And while you're there, why
don't you click that button thatsays, check out our merch, buy

(59:56):
some merch. What color is your hands?
They got hats, they got bags, they got so much stuff.
You can go there and you can getsomething.
So please do another way to sport is you say, why don't you
just tell anyone who will listento about it, huh?
You say words to people all the time, 10s of times a day at
least. Why don't you make at least one

(01:00:16):
of those times? Include, include our names, pass
us around. Your friends for a phone?
All right, please do something else.
An episode. Recommended episode.
So as you know, this is a seasonfinale.
So we are about you. Good.
Yeah, sorry. This is a season finale, which

(01:00:37):
means we're going to take the next three weeks off so we can
have the holidays off and we canalso take a break because, you
know, it is kind of grueling to put ten of these Outback to
back-to-back in a season. And we we like a break.
I'm tired. Well, you're always tired.
Nina yeah, it's bad this week. So in the in the meantime, why

(01:00:58):
don't you take the the time to send us recommendations for an
episode next season. We try to do a fan submitted
episode every season. This season was the Columbus Zoo
scandal that was submitted to us.
So you could be the next season.We'll give you a little shout
out. Who knows?
And I think with that, that's going to be it.
So thank you so much for listening.

(01:01:19):
We'll see you on another season of White Collars.
Red hands. Music.