Murder with Mother- Sante and Kenneth Kimes

On this season finale we discuss former millionaire's wife Sante Kimes who along with her son went on a rampage of murder and enslavement that saw them both end up in prison for over 100 years. What led this bad apple to not fall far from the tree? Find out on this week's episode

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Wall Street veteran Bernard Madoff has been arrested and
charged with running a $50 billion Ponzi scheme.
Congress wants to know what caused the Enron meltdown, and
while the collective rage currently is focused on low
comp. Tyco CEO Dennis Koslowski was
convicted of looting hundreds ofmillions of dollars.
This is one of the biggest fraudcases ever.

(00:23):
Their president's a crook. Well, I'm not a crook.
Find out more on this week's episode of White Collars, Red
Hands. Bonnie Elizabeth Parker and
Clyde Chestnut borrow where career criminals domestically
going coast to coast with their gang.
They robbed banks, kidnapped andmurdered during the turbulent

(00:45):
years of the Great Depression. They met, like most couples do,
through mutual friends and bonded over hot chocolate.
Who knew that these two little marshmallows would become some
of the most infamous duos in American history?
For two years, the duo and theirgang tortured the public until
they met their fate. On May 23rd, 1934, six police

(01:06):
officers fired 130 rounds into the Ford V8 that Clyde was
driving and thus ended the couple right there and then.
Bonnie and Clyde are now just a memory that lives on in American
media, and almost 100 years later, dynamic duos are not
uncommon when crimes are committed.
There's also Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Leopold and

(01:29):
Loeb, the Menendez brothers, andso many more.
Today we cover another crime committing duo Sante and Kenneth
Kimes, the mother and son who would stop at nothing to
succeed, even if that meant murder.
Find out how all their crimes went down on the Season 18

(01:50):
finale of White Collars Red Hands.
Other famous duos Grimace and the Hamburglar.
Sonny and Cher. That's a real one.
You're supposed to say funny ones, Nina.
Beavis and Butthead. That's also a real 1.

(02:12):
Whatever. Grimace and the Hamburg, Yeah,
those are real. Grimmish No.
They're part of a whole group ofMcDonald's.
Grimmish isn't even a villain. The hamburger is like an
antihero, right? He steals the hamburgers, but he
also, you know, he loves them, right?
So he's like part of the crew, but he's also like, but
stealing's wrong, OK? He's the Deadpool of the

(02:34):
McDonald's character universe, all right?
And Grimace is like some fat purple dude who just loves
eating, so don't look at me likethat just because I'm wearing
lilac, all right? This is a completely different
shade and I am not nearly as large as Grim.
You're not even fat. He is rotund.
You're. Not fat.

(02:56):
Well, you're the one. This is how we're starting.
And on that note, welcome to theSeason 18 finale of White
Collars, Redheads. I'm Kashawn.
Absolutely no relation to Grimace.
And I'm Nina, absolutely no relationship to the Hamburglar
and we are here for our season 18 finale.

(03:18):
Anything you're related to them.Fucking chicken Nuggets.
What's wrong with that? Little dresses, that's you,
that's you. Look em up.
I had the video that you got from McDonald's as a kid on VHS.
It's got them. The whole city's taking over
Mayor Mccheese, OR. Whatever Happy meal right now
calm you down. McDonald's gets me riled up.

(03:39):
I'm sorry. Getting to the story, Irene
Silverman, a New York City socialite and former ballerina,
owned a home and owned a beautiful home in the Upper East
Side. Silverman was known to host
renters in her home because at 82 years old, she was lonely.
Because of the home's remarkablelocation and the beauty, it

(04:02):
attracted some A list tenants, including Daniel Day Lewis,
Chaka Khan and Lenny Kravitz. Silverman was well loved by her
community and it was said that even at 82, she had a girlish
spirit about her, her more than likely dyed red hair often
adorned with a bow. Wait, she.
She was lonely. They lived with her in this

(04:24):
house. Yes.
So she owned this big house. So basically what had happened
was this woman, Irene Silverman,she was married to someone who
was very, very rich. And she convinced this man when
they were, you know, way before she was 82 to buy this house.
She was like, I love this home, please buy it for me.
So he ended up buying this house.

(04:44):
He passed away. She was getting older, she was
getting lonely. And she was like, you know what?
I, she was clearly an extrovert,very outgoing, loved people,
loved meeting people. And so she converted the home
into I would, she was renting the rooms out.
It was almost like, it wasn't like these people had their own

(05:05):
apartments, but they're renting out a room in her mansion and it
was a really ideal location. It was a really beautiful
historic home. She, I mean, there were perks.
There were a lot of perks to living there.
So she would rent out these rooms to people and she she had
designed the home so that peoplecould rent her rooms.
A lot of perks she like taking out her dentures or something.

(05:26):
Oh yeah, you know how that is. Daniel Day Lewis, you dirty
Doug. Got that gum?
Gum, 3000. Doug, look at what I've done to
my boy. He is a method actor.
I've gummed my boy. Oh God.
On July 4th, 1998, Silverman hada 4th of July party.

(05:47):
Everybody said it was a good party.
Silverman was having a ball and at the time seemed to be in good
health. However, in the morning of July
5th, 1998, several hours after speaking to one of her
housekeepers, it appeared that Silverman was not in her home.
First, it was one of her maids that discovered she was missing.

(06:07):
This was odd. Silverman rarely left her home
and she never left her home unattended.
Just somebody was always with her when she left.
She's got to have that arm candy.
She's got to have that arm candy.
When Silverman never came home that day, everyone around her
knew something was terribly wrong.
Her property manager, Jeff Feig,went down to the police station

(06:27):
and reported her missing. Because she was elderly, the
police decided that they would look into the missing persons
report. Thomas Hove Game, a junior
detective at the time, was assigned the case because no one
else wanted it. Missing persons cases are often
difficult, and most of the time the person who is missing turns
up and everything's fine. Since Hogan was the was the only

(06:48):
junior protective detective at the precinct at that time, like
literally at the time that the person had gone to the precinct,
he was given the case. A case that was much larger than
it seemed. Police came and searched
Silverman's home, hoping that she had fallen while taking out
the trash or getting out of the bathtub.

(07:08):
Unfortunately, Silverman was nowhere to be found.
Man, I hope this old lady just fell while getting out of the
bath and. No one checked the bathroom.
Well, yeah, it's rude. They just barge in there.
That's true, That's true. When interviewing staff members
about Silverman, everyone had nothing but good things to say

(07:29):
about her. It was clear that no one who
worked with Silverman had anything to do with her
disappearance. However, while interviewing
staff, it was mentioned that oneof the tenants was strange.
His name was Manny Guerin. He rented room 1B.
Silverman had said that she initially had a weird feeling
about him, but he paid her $6000in cash up front to stay in the

(07:54):
room. And money talks.
Now, this room that she rented out, these rooms that she rented
out to people were $6000 per month to rent, and this was in
1998. It was $6000 a month to rent
this room, which is like kind ofinsane.
Well, none, and it's on the Upper East.
Side I know, I know, I know I don't.

(08:14):
Know anything about New York? It's, and I, I mean, it's where
the location of this apartment was.
It was like right by Central Park.
It was a It's a very ideal location.
Wow Central Park the the place where all the homeless people
have orgies. So so nice to live by that you.
Don't like Central Park is. Not in person.

(08:35):
That sounds dangerous. See, there you go.
Well, you don't have any. This is why I watch bomb
gangbangs.com bank, not in person.
Well, that $6000 in cash was an offer that seemed too good to
refuse. Silverman even let him rent the
room without getting references,which was something that she
never typically did. He moved into her apartment on
June 14th, 1998. She told him that once he moved

(08:58):
in, she was going to need him toprovide her references.
But days went by and Garen had more and more excuses on why he
couldn't provide the references that Silverman wanted.
Garen also had shady behavior. He would avoid security cameras
by walking against the wall. He would also not allow
housekeepers to come in and clean his room.

(09:18):
Now honestly, this is a dream come true for me to have a
housekeeper come in and clean myroom because my room isn't super
dirty. Well, it's just a lot of clothes
everywhere. But he was like, you absolutely
cannot clean the room. And then he would always like be
avoiding the cameras, which was weird to them.
Yeah, I imagine it's like crunk in the part of the Emperor's new
group. He's taking him to throw in the

(09:39):
river. Yes, making his own theme music,
like sidling against walls the whole time.
Yes, this is exactly what Manny Garin was doing in the house.
It's. Totally normal.
What are? You talking about 100%?
He was also caught eavesdroppingon conversations pretty often.
Garen did have a female guest who had come to his room.
It was an older woman named Eva Guerrero who claimed that she

(10:01):
was his assistant. After just one week, Silverman
was fed up with Garen's behaviorand had plans on evicting him
from the room. It was clear to this.
Was all in a week. Well, she well it was.
You're eavesdropping like, like sneaking through the hallways
and I. Don't know if like I don't think
that like every single one of these things happened in one

(10:23):
week but like it within the first week she was like this
guy's shady I need to get him out but he had already paid for
a month so she couldn't really like kick him out yet.
But she wanted to evict him, andthe plan was to evict him, but
it hadn't happened yet. It was clear to police that
Manny Guerin was a person of interest.

(10:43):
When police came to his room to interview him, all they found
was a messy apartment. There was no sign of Manny
Guerin anywhere. But who is Manny Guerin?
When police looked for him, theycouldn't find anything about
him. It was as if he didn't exist.
A police sketch was made of Guerin and it was put on the
news hoping that someone would have some information about him.

(11:06):
The sketched work. The sketch worked and within 24
hours an FBI agent saw the sketch of Manny Guerin and
called in. The FBI agent actually had
arrested two suspects the night before for a stolen car case
that was actually in Utah. Neither of these individuals
were named Manny Guerin. Their names were Sante and

(11:27):
Kenneth Kimes Junior, and the Irene Silverman case was just
the beginning. So Sante Kimes is a woman with a
story. Kimes was born into poverty, and
according to her, her father left the family when she was
young. Her mother was a single mother,
and in order to make ends meet, she had to resort to doing sex

(11:47):
work. However, however, Kime's oldest
son claims that this is false and that his grandmother was
never a sex worker. Like you'd know.
Exactly. She she said.
She said I'd we'll see. I met my grandma and her vibe
was not very sexy my. Grandma was not.
I just can't believe that my grandma was given blowjobs in

(12:10):
the alley. Like she's totally not like her.
Even if she was, it's, I mean, she must have not liked it
'cause she, I'm just saying she didn't, she didn't really exude
sex appeal. My grandma don't know.
No, from everything we know about Sante's upbringing, she
had a very turbulent childhood because her of her mother's
alleged line of work. Sante says that she was molested

(12:31):
often as a child and even had anincestuous relationship with her
older brother. Sante's sister claims that Sante
was a pyromaniac and would burn her sister's fingers and would
also dabble in animal cruelty. When she was a teenager, she
Sante moved to with her mother to Los Angeles.

(12:52):
After moving to Los Angeles, shewas adopted by Edwin and Mary
Chambers, a couple who was unable to have children and
wanted to welcome a child into their home.
This was all very strange to me that as she got to Los Angeles,
someone was like, oh, I know this couple who wants a kid and
you're not being taken care of. So they adopted her.

(13:12):
Yeah, it's very strange. What's up with these chambers of
secrets? Chambers of Secrets.
Yeah, it is said that the chamber's household, they're a
middle class family, but their house was full of love and they
supported Sante with whatever she needed.
Although she had been adopted into a loving family, Sante was
not able to shake her whole ways.

(13:34):
In 1996, she rekindled her relationship with a former high
school flame, Edward Walker. They got married and had a son
named Kent Walker. Sante and Edward had an on
again, off again relationship. She was a single mother for most
of Kent's childhood and she would coerce him into her
schemes. She would often have Kent help

(13:55):
her steal things that they needed or wanted.
Kent recalls the first time thathe stole something by himself.
He tried to steal a surfboard when he was 12 years old, but he
got caught. Sante was furious, not because
Kent stole the surfboard, but because he had gotten caught.
She recalls his mother taking him back to the shop and showing
him what he should have done instead, instead to avoid

(14:18):
getting caught. Shoplifting was not Sante's only
vice. She had other criminal
tendencies up her sleeve. Edward was a general contractor
and while they were together, several of the homes that he was
building burnt down. Not only was Sante burning down
Edward's homes to collect insurance money, but she was
also having affairs behind Edward's back.

(14:41):
Oh no. And all of this got him to get
straight. And when he did, he became a
Texas Ranger. And that's where Walker, Texas
Ranger comes from, believe it ornot.
You didn't know Chuck Norris hadthat back story, did ya?
Yeah, Chuck. Chuck Norris.
Now you know this was him. Now you know so well.
She and Edward Walker split up and upon their divorce, Sante

(15:04):
and Kent moved to Palm Springs, CA.
When they moved, Sante told her son that she was on the hunt for
a millionaire. And she wasn't kidding.
Sante did have what it took to bag a millionaire.
She was charming, fun and beautiful.
Many people said that she resembled Elizabeth Taylor when
she was younger. And I agree.
She did. Like, I mean, if she's walking

(15:24):
down the street. Kent tells the story that one
time they were at a restaurant and somebody came up to her and
asked for an autograph, and she just, like, gave it to him.
I don't think that, like, because they thought she was
Elizabeth Taylor. She did resemble Elizabeth
Taylor, but like if you squinted.
After moving to Palm Springs, she got a job at a magazine
called Millionaire Magazine where they would interview

(15:46):
million millionaires. A.
Little on the nose. I mean, hey, that's a great way
to get in, I guess. Yeah, well, it was there that
she met her next husband, Kenneth Kime Senior.
Kenneth Kind Senior was a recentdivorcee with a net worth of $20
million. He was the exact type that Sante
was looking for. Just millionaire.

(16:07):
There's one box to check and he checked.
That was it. He checked it 20 times there.
Were two there were two alive and millionaire.
Yeah, but you only got to be alive for a little bit.
Well, that's all she needed was just a little bit.
Maybe 1/2 check on that one. The two started dating and
Kenneth fell madly in love with Sante.
The two welcomed the welcome to son Kenneth Kimes Junior on

(16:29):
March 24th, 1974. Sante and Kenneth Senior got
married on April 5th, 1981. So they waited a while to get
married after they had their baby Kent Walker.
So this is very annoying. She has a son named Kenneth and
a son named Kent, Cool Kent and Kenny.
Don't do this. That's really annoying.

(16:49):
Don't do this to your kids, please.
Kent Walker notes that his brother Kenny had an extremely
strange upbringing, even stranger than his own.
Sante kept Kenny very close to her and was extremely protective
over him. She ruled over him with an iron
fist. He didn't go to school, instead
he had tutors that would come tothe home.
He didn't really have friends and she monitored his

(17:10):
whereabouts at all times. Kent's ex-girlfriend recalls her
and Kent like sneaking Kenny outof the house to get ice cream
without his mom knowing because,like, she would not want him to
leave the house without her. It was really strange.
Huh. Well, he's he's heir apparent to
the to the Kime's fortune. That's true.

(17:32):
So yeah, that's true. You have to keep him close to
the breast. Yeah, Kent describes Kenny as a
spoil, as spoiled, and that he was kind of a brat.
Oh, what? Shaggy, what would have done
that? Although she was married to a
millionaire, this didn't stop Sante's kleptomaniac ways
whenever she got into trouble, she was She was stealing shit
all the time. Like one time she stole a

(17:52):
Cadillac and like had a stolen Cadillac at their house because
she just wanted to steal it. They could afford the Cadillac
'cause she just stole it. I'm.
Gonna lie. That is a boss ass thing to
steal. I mean, yeah, it's not the only
car she'll steal. Whenever she got into trouble,
Kenneth Senior was always there to bail her out.
She would also like to introduceKenneth Senior as an ambassador,
even though he wasn't an ambassador.

(18:14):
And this actually worked. And they got to go to the White
House during the Ford administration.
And there was like, I don't evenknow what her reasoning was for
this. There was like no reasoning
other than she just like wanted to appear to be more important
than she was. I'm more worried that you can
like, get into a White House event just by saying, well,
this. Was the 70s.

(18:35):
My husband's an ambassador. Yeah.
And then while she was at that, at one of she was at the White
House and they were at one of these things where she was
pretending that her husband was an ambassador and she like stole
a mink coat while they were there.
Like, you're not gonna get caught.
She got caught. And then that's why, why the how
they like figured out that they wasn't really an ambassador, but
like, she had a mink coat so on already.

(18:57):
She put and somebody had theirs over a chair and she put it hers
over theirs and then just pickedboth of them up.
Dude, she double bagged herself in mink coats.
Yes, she must have been so fucking hot.
I know. Yeah, probably.
What is the like? And what was the reasoning She
she is 100% like a textbook kleptomaniac.

(19:17):
She is stealing for no reason. Like she wants to steal shit.
Hey, what a great story. Though if this didn't end in
murder, what a great story, you know?
Sante was known for being a charming woman, but she did have
a mean streak. Kent's girlfriend from high
school recalls that she and Sante got along very well in the

(19:39):
beginning and that Sante adored her.
She really did love her as she, like the girlfriend, loved Sante
and she enjoyed spending time ather boyfriend's house.
But when Kent confided in her that his mother was having him
commit theft 'cause even as a teenager, even after she married
kind of senior, she was still having Kent help her steal

(20:00):
stuff. Like there was even this one
time that she was stealing something.
This was a little bit before shegot married to Kent or Kenneth,
but she stole something. The shopkeeper caught her and
Sante punched Kent in the mouth and he started bleeding.
And then the cops showed up and she was like, oh, the shop owner

(20:22):
punched him. So then the police officer like
starts arresting the shop owner and then they got away.
Oh man. Like it was, it was just like
crazy stuff all the time it. Was so easy to be a criminal in
the 70s you could just, Oh yeah,punch your kid in the mouth and
blame it on a shop owner and they can't like.
They can't do anything. There's no cameras.
That's so crazy. Literally.

(20:43):
But Kent told his girlfriend like my yeah, my mom like has me
steal stuff all the time. And his girlfriend was like, you
need to stop doing that because it's illegal, obviously.
And she didn't want him to go tojail.
Shortly after that conversation,Kent told Sante that he could no
longer help her with her crimes.This news infuriated Sante and

(21:04):
she warned his girlfriend to never speak to Kent again.
Soon after Sante confronted Kent's girlfriend, the police
showed up at the girlfriend's house without warning her that
Sante had put a hit out on her and that she really shouldn't
contact Kent anymore and be careful when she left her house,
which is so extreme and crazy. How did they even find out that

(21:27):
she put a hit on? Her I don't know are these.
Fake cops that she hired to go be like go tell this child that
I that I took out a fucking. You know what?
Murder contract on her. You know what, I wouldn't put it
past her to do something crazy like that because.
I feel like the cops would just arrest the person.
Well, that's what I thought whenI heard the story.

(21:48):
If they have enough to go tell her, why would they?
Why would they not just arrest her for it?
That would make that would make a lot more sense.
They're going to rent A. Hit.
That's probably what that's probably what happened.
But the girlfriend, I think, believed that they were cops and
she was terrified. So she ended up ghosting Kent.
And it's a guilt that she's carried throughout her whole
life. Like they I was listening to an

(22:10):
interview with her and she was agrown adult woman in her 50s and
she was like crying recalling this.
She was like, I know that he thought I didn't love him
anymore and that I just like, went like up and left.
But that wasn't the case. Like I loved him.
I wanted to still be with him but his mom like wanted to kill
me so I couldn't be with him anymore.

(22:31):
Yeah, I. And she's like, and he never
knew that. Don't know what that's like.
Parents love me. I don't know, it's like either I
don't date anybody seriously, soyou know, I'm safe.
Sante's mean streak bled into one of the most diabolical
crimes that she commits. Although Sante was married to a

(22:51):
millionaire, she did not want tospend money on frivolous things
such as cleaning the house. However, Sante did not clean
that house herself. Instead, she would find young
undocumented immigrants to come clean her home and essentially
held them hostage and enslaved them.
She told them that if they didn't follow her orders that

(23:12):
she would report them to the police.
Sante and Kenneth Senior did getcaught for enslaving
housekeepers in their home. Kenneth Senior took a plea
bargain, but Sante decided to goto trial.
She was sentenced to five years in prison.
What the heck? Yeah, and now the president's
doing this with no recompense. Yeah, when she was released from

(23:35):
prison in 1989, it seemed as though things were pretty normal
for the family. That was until Kenneth Kenneth
Kime's senior died of a brain aneurysm in 1994.
After his death, Sante realized that she had squandered most of
her husband's fortune and that the money that they did have was
left in that he did have was left in bank accounts that did

(23:57):
not have her name attached to them.
She had to get creative. He also left whatever was left
to his children in his first marriage.
Nice. And really didn't leave anything
to Sante and Kenny. Gotcha.
So. Your first inclination should
have been when he took seven years to marry you.
After that kid, yeah, you were going to get anything.

(24:17):
That was a clue. You got to start.
You got to start putting rat poison a little by little in his
tea and then find his will and get it rereaded.
You know, come on. You gotta.
You gotta be thinking. You gotta.
Think a little bit more about this.
So she did get creative, though,and that is where David Kasdan

(24:37):
comes in now. David Kasdan was a family friend
of the Kimes family. In the 1970s, Kasdan allowed
Kenneth Senior to put his name on a deed for a home that was
owned by Kenneth Senior. For some reason, he let him do
this. It was a home in Las Vegas.
The Promise With the promise that he would be taken off of

(24:58):
the deed, they assured him that his name would be taken off and
he wouldn't be liable for anything that had to do with the
house. When Kenneth Senior passed,
Kasdan once again requested his name to be taken off of the Las
Vegas home. It's been like 20 years at this
point. Sante promised that she would
take him off the loan or off thedeed, but of course, that's not

(25:18):
what happened. Sante went to the bank and
somehow convinced the bank to allow her to take out $238,000
in a loan in David Kasdan's name.
She with hey with Kenneson, you're gone.
This was a pretty great way for Sante to have some pocket change
while she figured out her next moved.

(25:39):
Kasdan had no idea that Sante had done this until he received
a letter in the mail about payments to repay the loan.
He confronted Sante about it, and the conversation did not go
well. She said something to him along
the lines of like, stop bothering me about this.
It it'll, it's gonna be bad for your health.

(26:00):
That was what she said. Them's fighting.
Words I can believe. Fighting words.
If I've ever heard fighting words before them's be it.
Well, Sante decided that the best way to solve this problem
was by eliminating Kasdan. Sante ordered Kenny Junior to
kill David Kasdan. What?
The heck? Like he's a Manchurian
candidate. Like fucking sleeper cell.

(26:21):
Like. Like kill Kasdan, kill Kasdan
like wakes up and he knows karate or something.
Something a lot like that. Kenny Junior then met Sean
Little. He was a man who was living in a
homeless shelter and Sante and Kenny Junior offered him a job
and a place to stay. But what really ended up

(26:45):
happening was they hired him to help them with Kasdan's murder.
Now Sean had no idea what he wasagreeing to, but he needed the
money and told Kenny that he waswilling to help him.
He was like just help me with some stuff and he's like OK,
that's fine. Didn't know what he was getting
into. Hey, man, yeah, just I'll give
you a place to stay. You just help me out with some
stuff. We're just gonna fucking kill
this guy. No big deal.

(27:07):
Not a big deal. You're gonna be good.
In March of 1998, the two drove out to Kasdan's home.
Once they arrived, Kenny Junior told Sean to wait in the car.
Kasdan let Kenny Junior into thehouse without much thought
because he knew him and he trusted him.
Like they were family friends forever.
I know that like his mom and like Sante and Kasdan were

(27:27):
having beef, but that really didn't have anything to do with
Kenny Junior, so he didn't thinktwice letting him into his home.
It is said that Kazdin went to make Kenny Junior a cup of
coffee and while his back was turned, Kenny shot him in the
back of the head. Sean Little heard the gunshot
and was frozen in place. Kenny came out and told him that
he needed him to help him removeKazdin's body.

(27:50):
Sean was afraid that if he didn't help Kenny that he may be
killed also be killed. He helped Kenny move the body
and then he went to the police. That actually is terrifying
though, like some guy offers you, like I'll give you some
money and some food, like I justneed help with some stuff.
You think you're going to be like moving furniture or

(28:13):
something stupid like that? Yeah, and he literally shoots.
A guy. Yeah.
And then it's like, oh, no, you have to help me.
And then he still has the gun. Yeah.
Jesus Christ. I mean, I think your hands are
really tight at that point. I think you kind of have to.
I I would understand why you feel like you have to go along
with that. Well, at that point, the dude's
already dead. Yeah, sure, man.
Whatever you want. Well, when then you be an
accessory though. No 'cause he's threatening to

(28:36):
kill me The. Well, if he's threatening to
kill me, yeah. What?
Am I going to do run away from abullet?
No, exactly, I will not be. So yeah, I'm, I'm moving a body.
Whatever you want me to do, I'llslap him around a little bit,
like as like, I'm just going to try to not die at that.
Point No. Literally.
Yeah. The house that Kasdan's name was
on the deed for. Don't worry, Sante tried to burn

(28:57):
that down as well and collect insurance money off of it.
It didn't really work, though. That time it didn't work.
You took out a huge loan againstthe property too, so it's like.
Yeah, literally. She's a dummy.
A few days later, a homeless manwas a different homeless man was
rummaging through a dumpster near LAX and while he was
looking for cans, found a foot. That foot belonged to David

(29:20):
Kasdan, and the hunt for Sante and Kenny Kimes begins after
they fled California after DavidKasdan's murder.
It didn't take long for Sante and Kenny Kimes to pop up on the
police's radar. After leaving Los Angeles, Sante
stole a car off of the lot in Utah.

(29:41):
They gave the dealership a boguscheck and left before the
dealership knew it bounced. The police knew that if they
caught Sante and Kenny Kenny on charges for stealing the car,
they would have them for murder.Now you're listening to these
two murders. They murdered David Kasdan.
They've murdered Irene Silverman.

(30:02):
Kasdan's murder. Irene's dead.
Oops, I mean she's missing. She's been missing.
Y'all know she's dead. Anyways, we can assume she's
dead. OK.
She's disappeared. I was really hoping she's gonna
make it. Spoiler alert, she doesn't.

(30:22):
I'm sorry, Kaz. And you know like that murder
kind of made sense, ish. If you are deranged, this guy is
not doing what I want him to do.I need the money.
Whatever. But why did Sante and Kenny want
to get rid of Irene Silverman? Why was she going to be taken
out of the picture? Well, the plot was to take her

(30:44):
money. Silverman owned her building in
the Upper East Side outright. She no longer had a mortgage on
it. She completely owned that
building and she was renting therooms for $6000 a month, which
generated great income. And in what is believed is that
I'm sorry, they did kill Irene Silverman, that when they killed

(31:08):
her, that Sante was going to tryto take over her identity and
then run the home herself. I don't think that this plan
would have worked the way that they believed it would have
worked. They killed a lady to become a
landlord. Literally.
This is the stupidest motivationfor murder I've ever heard in my
life. Yeah, basically they were trying

(31:29):
to steal her house and then own it and become landlords, yes.
Yeah, 'cause that won't look, that won't.
I've heard a couple conflicting things, which I'll talk about
later. One theory is that they they
thought that Sante was going to assume Silverman's identity.
But then I'll tell you what. The other thing?
Like what? She's gonna put on a red wig
with a bow in it and be like, belike.

(31:52):
Hello everybody. Like like missus Doubtfire where
she's like yoo Hoo. I'm Irene.
Don't forget your register on the 1st $6000 baby cash direct
to you. Don't write Irene Silverman on
the checks, though. Leave them blank.
Yeah, this wasn't going to work.This whole plan was never going
to work. When the mother and son duo were

(32:13):
hatching this plan, they contacted a man named Stan
Patterson. Now Stan Patterson was already
in some deep trouble because he had sold the handgun to Kenny
Junior that he used to kill David Kasdan.
Now they wanted him to help themmanage the property on the Upper

(32:36):
East Side. Patterson agreed to help them,
but was secretly acting as an informant for the police so that
he could avoid jail time and a murder charge.
So the police find obviously David Kasdan's dead.
They find out that Patterson sold Kenny Junior the gun, and

(32:58):
they were like, if you help us catch this guy, you're not going
to be in trouble. Basically, he was looking at
murder charges because he sold the gun that murdered David
Kasdan, which I don't necessarily think it's fair
'cause he didn't know that KennyJunior was going to kill
somebody. You did illegally sell them a
gun though. That's what happened.

(33:19):
When you illegally sell people guns, I don't think they're just
like, yeah, you know, I'm gonna use this for.
I'm gonna go shoot skeet like, like, no, you're using an
illegally obtained gun to murdersomebody.
Most. Likely right.
Yeah, Yeah. So kind of Fair.
So Patterson and the Kimes's, they agreed to meet at the New

(33:41):
York Hilton. It was that at that meeting that
police apprehended Sante and Kenny.
When police searched the stolen vehicle that they had stolen
from Utah, they found damning evidence.
They found wigs, a stun gun, handcuffs and a shower curtain.

(34:02):
What damning evidence? Well, those are all like things
that they would use to kill somebody.
Like why do you have handcuffs in the car?
Why do you have a stun gun? Also, why do you have bullet?
Bullets was another thing they had in there.
I was like also things you couldjust like normally find in a sex
dungeon. Handcuffs, wigs, a stun gun.

(34:23):
A shower curtain. This is like word soup.
Well they found all the so I mean you, you are looking at
people that you are pretty sure have committed 2 murders at this
point. So to have bullets in the car.
You OK? You keep saying that you left
bullets out. OK, I did.
I did leave bullets. So you're.
Saying that like, like I knew there were also bullets.
There were also bullets in the car.

(34:44):
They had things that were going to hide their identity.
They had handcuffs. They had a shower curtain.
When they checked the trunk, it was completely empty except for
a plastic lining of the trunk. And then also they're.
Just making a hot tub back there.
OK, well it. It's normal to do.
Among these items were also a bunch of journals in the car and

(35:08):
lists that Sante had written herself listing the things that
they would need to pull off the murder.
What like at? Like no, literally she made
like. A stun gun #2A shower curtain
#3. I'm I'm 100% serious.
She like literally made like a grocery list of things they
would need to pull off a murder,like the supplies that they

(35:29):
would need and they found it in the car along with all the
items. What?
#3 handcuffs. #3 handcuffs #4 sneakers bar in case they get
hungry. And that Sante's not her when
she's hungry, man. You're not you when you're
hungry. But the most damning evidence of

(35:52):
all was Silverman's passport andother important documents that
were also found in the car. And eventually the police
uncovered the deed to Silverman's property.
There was also in one of I'm notgonna lie, when I was doing all

(36:13):
this research, some of the information was conflicting.
One thing that I found had said that there with that deed, there
was a portion of it that was forged saying that Silverman was
going to give Silverman was going to give Sante and Kenny

(36:34):
the deed to her house. So they had like forged that.
So there's one theory that she was going to assume Silverman's
identity, but then there's this also this part that says that
she had signed over the deed. That's crazy.
I did some preliminary research on this too and I think what I
heard is that on the back of thedeed if you put lemon juice and

(36:56):
in the oven it gave you a map totreasure.
Oh yeah. Yeah, my research was.
Kind of like. My research was a documentary
with Nicholas Cage. Yeah, I was going to say, I
think I've seen that documentary.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. National Treasure.
It's crazy so many documents just have treasure maps on the
back. So and why?
We're just not sticking them in ovens after covering them,

(37:17):
covering them in lemon juice usually.
To start doing that, please get on it.
Well, also in the car were detailed logs of Irene's
day-to-day whereabouts, where she was going, who she was with,
just like her entire schedule. So they really watched this
woman learn her routine and thendevised their evil plan.

(37:40):
Sante and Kenny Kind were cooked.
Kenny Kimes Junior did kill Irene Silverman and he dumped
her body into a dumpster in Hoboken, NJ and her body has
actually never been found. Although there was no body, law
enforcement knew that they were guilty of the crime.

(38:02):
As the trial unfolded, it was revealed that David Kasdan and
Irene Silverman's deaths were not the only deaths that Sante
and Kenneth Kind Junior were linked to a man named Elmer
Holmgren. Elmer Holmgren was a lawyer that
Sante Kimes hired to burn down her home in Honolulu, HI.

(38:24):
You can hire lawyers for this. I think so.
This man was like a bad lawyer. He wasn't doing well.
And so she was like, hey, you'rea lawyer.
You know how to get. I think basically her thought
process was you're a lawyer, you'll know how to like, skirt
around the law. Help me burn down this house.
Call. You need some help?

(38:44):
Call me Elmer Holmgren. I specialize in personal injury
law and also arson. You've been hit by a bus.
You've fallen down some stairs at the store.
You'll get it. You got it into a pinch and you
need your place burned out without any evidence of an
accelerant being used. Call me Elmer Holmgren at 55525
Fire. So there was actually a lien on

(39:09):
this Honolulu, HI property and it would have cost $900,000 to
even sell the property. In today's money, that would be
about $2,000,000. So Sante was like, let's just
burn it and collect the insurance money.
Seems to be her answer to a lot of things.
She loves. When in doubt, burn it out.

(39:30):
You know that's that's Sante Kimes is.
It's not a throw pillow. That's literally she had cross
stitched it on a pillow. Holmgren agrees to help Sante
commit arson. It was obvious to the insurance
company that the fire was not accidental and they interviewed
Holmgren about the arson. He admitted to selling setting

(39:52):
the property on fire. Well, that was not enough fire
because on October 24th, 1990, Satay then burns down Holmgren's
office because there were documents in there that were
going to be incriminating to herinside the building.
Before the case could be broughtto trial, Holmgren told his
family that he was going to be taking a vacation to Costa Rica

(40:13):
with some friends. Who were those friends?
Sante and Kenneth Kimes senior. So this was before Kenneth Kimes
had died. Though Kenneth Kimes Senior had
died, However, his holiday in the sun ended early when he was
murdered by Sante Kimes on vacation.

(40:34):
Kenny Kenny admitted that his mother told him about the
murder. She allegedly this is this is
pretty gross. She allegedly hit him in the
head with a hammer until he died.
He was in the passenger seat of the car and she was in the back
seat and she beat him in the head with a hammer until he
died. And you're not get found out.

(40:57):
That sounds like it's going to create a hell of a mess.
Yeah, well, no charges were everbrought against Sante for this
crime. And sadly, this is not the only
murder that the Kimes family gotaway with.
Kenny Kimes also admitted to murdering a man by the name of
Syed Ahmed. Ahmed was a banker who was in
charge of Sante's offshore bank accounts.

(41:19):
Ahmed had found some irregularities in Kimes's bank
accounts and so and these accounts were held in the
Bahamas. The Kenneth Kimes senior had a
lot of offshore bank accounts. He was a he was a
multimillionaire. Every multimillionaire has.
Fucking accounts to the. Bahamas, I guarantee.
You exactly. So Sante and Kenny went down to

(41:41):
the Bahamas to meet with Ahmed, and they ate dinner with him.
During that dinner, they druggedAhmed, took him back to the
hotel room where they drowned him, and then dumped his body
offshore. Sante denies any involvement
with Ahmed's death, and she saysthat Kenny only said this to
avoid the death penalty for bothof them.
Basically, he was like, I'll admit to this murder if you

(42:05):
don't give us both the death penalty.
And so they were like, OK, fine,but they never actually like
charges for his death were neverwhen they went to trial, there
were no charges for Ahmed's death, only for Silverman's and
Kasdens. The time leading up to the trial

(42:26):
was tense. This case obviously was
sensationalized and people knew that Sante and Kenny, I mean,
people just already knew that they were guilty.
They were guilty. They were not proven.
They were not innocent until proven guilty.
People knew that they did this. And what is really sad is when
Kent Walker, her son, they endedup becoming estranged because, I

(42:48):
mean, obviously your mom's a wackadoodle and your brother is
in cahoots with her, and it would be best to separate
yourself. I'm sorry, just what frivolous
and whimsical words to use for these people that are like
brutally like like executing people.
She yeah, she like drowned this guy.
She like I hit a guy in the headwith a hammer like 7 times.

(43:09):
They murdered an old lady. What a wackadoodle.
What do you? What is she's a bitch like she's
a horrible person it. Just see that you're
overcorrecting now. But I just whack a doodle's an
interesting choice, I just wanted to point that out.
I don't know why I picked that. Word and and and her son is in
cahoots with her. They were she's a crazy person.

(43:34):
She's a crazy person. And but when he found out, when
the whole Irene Silverman case was unfolding, Kent Walker was
like, honestly, I'm not surprised.
He was like, I want them to be innocent, but I don't think they
are. And that's really bad if your
own son is like, I believe my mom could murder someone.

(43:55):
So to kind of to like save theirreputation, I guess is the way I
want to put this save face. Kenny and Kenny Junior and Sante
went actually went on 60 minutesto do an interview, which
backfired the interview. It in the interview, it was
really apparent that they had a very strange relationship.

(44:17):
They were sitting super close together and at first I was like
when I was reading about this, Iwas like sitting super close
together, like whatever. No, they were literally like on
top, like they were like on top of each other and holding hands
and it looked just like looked really weird And then.
They kissed with tongue at 1:00.Point damn near and Kenny junior

(44:40):
was like Oh my mother's such a wonderful person she's a
beautiful soul inside as well asher appearance and like all this
stuff and it was like really, really weird she's.
A beautiful person, she's and she's also hot.
She's so hot, guys. Yeah, my mom, my mom, the one
who was telling me do it, let Kenny do it while I was drowning
someone. Beautiful person inside and out.

(45:04):
What a wonderful woman. She's just the best.
So this 60 Minutes interview sparked rumors that the two had
an incestuous relationship. Another reason people were
saying this was because when he when Kenny Junior was living at
Irene Silverman's house, his momwas coming to visit him and was

(45:27):
staying with him and there was only one bed.
Allegedly, somebody once said that they walked in on the two
of them in bed naked together, but I don't really know.
There's not a whole lot of evidence that that happened.
Sante's other son, Kent, has spoken on this, and he claims
that he does not think that his mother and his half brother had

(45:49):
a sexual relationship, but he did say that they were.
He felt like they were probably emotionally very intimate with
each other. What does that mean?
I don't know. I think that you'd you know.
Emotionally intimate. They shared their each other's
secrets, which were literally she knew all his secrets.
She wasn't allowed. He wasn't allowed to leave the
house without her. They murdered people together.

(46:10):
They murdered people. Like, literally, that's your
secret. Either way, the relationship is
very weird. And when they did go to trial,
it did not take long for the jury to find them guilty on 118
counts of murder, robbery, burglary, conspiracy, grand

(46:31):
larceny, illegal weapons possessions, forgery and
eavesdropping. Which I didn't think that
eavesdropping was illegal. I'm going to jail.
I mean, I'm sure that it's just the name for some actual
criminal act. Yeah, because I was
eavesdropping yesterday while I was getting my nails done.
It's in public. It's not eavesdropping.

(46:52):
Yeah, if you're talking loud enough for me to hear, it's not
eavesdropping, right? It's eavesdropping.
If you're standing on an actual eve of a house, that's
eavesdropping. And then you're dropping Yeah.
Fontaine maintained her innocence and claimed that the
trial was a witch hunt and that it was one of the biggest
injustices in American history. No one cares about you enough to
witch hunt you. What you're talking about?

(47:13):
And she also said that they weremurdering the Constitution with
her trial. Yeah, which once again.
What? Oh wait, it was the fucking
Declaration of Independence. The map was on.
Yeah, it was there, yeah. God damn.
It well, there's probably a map on back on the back of the
Constitution as well. Probably.
Have we put it in an oven? We don't know.

(47:37):
Sante Kimes was sentenced to 120years in prison and Kenneth
Kimes junior to 124 years in prison.
Life sentences for the both of them.
Oh, are we sure? Well, one of them for sure.
No both of them for sure. None of them were living to 100

(47:57):
and like 50 dude. Yeah, I was like, she's not
eligible for parole until 2116. Oh chill.
Yeah, However, this wasn't the last scandal that Kenneth for
Ken, Kenneth and Sante. In October of 2000, Kenny was
doing an interview with Court TVand he held reporter Maria's own
hostage during the interview. She said that during the

(48:20):
interview, he was like having hekept having to go to the
bathroom and then he was like, Igotta go bathroom.
We'd go to the bathroom and thenhe like would come back.
And then he was like, I'm hungry.
Can I have something to eat? So she like went and got him a,
a Snickers bar from the vending machine and then some pop.
And then somehow he got ahold ofa pen and like, like wrapped his
arm around her and like held thepen against her throat and was

(48:42):
like, threatening, threatening. And like, this is a hostage
situation. This is a hostage situation.
And she said that she was able to calm him down by praying with
him. And then she also just continued
to interview him while he had a ballpoint pen to her jugular.
I need a fully gas 747 and $16,000,000 in unmarked one

(49:05):
hundreds. Yeah, he claimed that he was
holding her hostage because he didn't want his mother to die in
prison and that she was elderly and shouldn't have to spend the
rest of her life in jail. Which makes.
You guys murdered multiple people.
Literally four people. It's like you don't understand
why you're there. And like, again, back to the
relationship, it was really weird.

(49:25):
Like even more recently there was an interview done with him
and he was like, no, I love my mom, I love my mom.
I have no hard feelings against my mom.
My mom was a good person. He has a very wack view of his
mother. A.
Very wackadoodle view. Of the very wackadoodle view of
his mom. Although it was her son's dying
wish that she wouldn't die in prison, it didn't come true.

(49:49):
Sante Kimes died in prison on May 19th, 2014.
She died of a heart condition atthe age of 79.
When some people were asked, like Kent Walker, her oldest son
and then his ex-girlfriend who she allegedly hired, the hit on

(50:10):
both of them were like, I felt relief when she died.
Yeah, not a good sign that you were a good.
Person No, not at all. And the girlfriend was like,
honestly, I was like looking behind my back all these years,
worried that like, she was goingto kill me.
The one thing I hope that when Idie that people don't react with
is that, you know, that's got tobe the worst.

(50:32):
Yeah, that would be really sad. Did you hear Sean died?
Thank God. Oh what a a weight lifted off my
chest. What a waste of.
Space, you know, OK, it's getting serious.
I could tell you were serious. No, I'm not serious.
I could tell you were serious. He's fine.
Well, from rags to riches to chains, Sante Kimes had a lust

(50:58):
for the finer things in life andwould let nothing get in her way
of achieving that dream. Roping her sons into her schemes
just seemed natural and justified as she broke the law
again and again and again, SanteKimes formed Kenny Junior into
the perfect assistant, almost asif she had had him only to do

(51:19):
her bidding. After years of breaking the law,
it all finally came to an end when their scheme was just a
little too messy. In my opinion, justice was
served in this case. Sante and Kenny Junior deserves
to spend deserve to spend the rest of their lives in prison,
eating prison slop and sleeping on cold cots.
This is just a fraction of what they put their victims and their

(51:40):
victims families through. Prison slop.
They get better food in prisons than they do in in schools bro.
Yeah, probably. It's the same company because it
in prisons they set like you have to have a certain amount of
vegetables, a certain amount of proteins.
They don't do that for kids. No, they 100% don't.
I look at it every day. So.
Today we had chicken tenders andrice in frozen blueberries.
Weird, weird pairing. And then you could have some raw

(52:03):
zucchini if you wanted. Oh really?
I can have some raw zucchini. Yeah, and then you get to pick
your choice of a fruit which it was, frozen blueberries or apple
juice. Apple juice isn't a fruit.
I know. And then you have your choice of
strawberry, chocolate or regularmilk.
I'm so glad that we got rid of half of the Department of
Education. It's it's already running so

(52:23):
well, get rid of half of them, they'll be able to plan it
better. All right, on that note.
Jesus fucking. Christ, thank you so much for
joining us this season of White Collars Red Hands Season 18.
If you like what you heard, you can find us on all of our social
medias. We are on facebook.com/white
Collars Red hands. We're on Twitter at White

(52:44):
collars pod. We're on Instagram at White
collars under score, red hands. We're on TikTok at White Collars
Red Hands. We're on X at White Collars Red
hands, also on YouTube. Please subscribe to our YouTube
channel. We're on X at white Collars pod.
Oh shit, white collars pod. Just by the way.
Sorry, forgot. We're on X at white collars.
Red hands. Like pizza's a fucking vegetable

(53:06):
in the school system. Pizza's a vegetable.
Apple juice is a fruit. The whole food pyramid's all
topsy fucking turvy. So are you today.
Just keep going. All right, I'm.
Too angry? I'm sorry.
At me? No, not OK.
What else? Country.
Oh, well, yeah, fair. I don't remember what else I was

(53:30):
saying. We call her Spot.
Tell a friend. Oh, yeah, Tell a friend.
Please, please tell a friend. Please tell a friend.
That's the best way to talk about it, I said.
I've said three times. It's the season finale.
Fine, fair enough. They know it's the season
finale. Fair enough.
And since it's the season finale, if you know of a Bright
Collar Crime Story that you wantus to cover, please send it our

(53:53):
way. You can do that via e-mail at
White Collars, [e-mail] or you can DM
us on any of our socials. We try to do 1 fan submitted
episode every single season and the next one could be yours.
You. Can submit it via carrier
pigeon. My home address is Nah, I'm
joking you freaks. I bet you won't it they.
Already know what it is, I'm notgoing.

(54:13):
To give it to you, not freely. What if I said please?
No, I'm not going to dox myself just because you say please.
I I fell for that once, I'm not doing it again.
Another way that you support us is by we said telling a friend
but also leaving a rating. You can do so on Apple Podcasts
or on Spotify. We love A5 star rating, but we

(54:34):
will also take an honest one. And then an unfree way to
support us is by buying some merch.
It's the season finale. I'm I'm donning my hoodie.
It's so cute. You can go to our website,
welcomewhitecollarsredhands.com.Click on the merch tab.
It'll take you over to T public and you can get literally almost
anything with our logo on it. And I think that's it.

(54:57):
Did we say recommend a friend? Yeah, tell a friend.
Yeah, that's probably it, yeah. All right.
Well, thank you so much for listening to us this season.
We will be back in a few weeks with season probably 3 weeks, 3
weeks. We're taking three weeks off so.
I guess we're taking three weeksoff I.
Guess we'd be back in four, yeah?
Yeah, we'll be back in about a month with season 1910 new

(55:20):
episodes for you guys and we'll see you next season on another
on another seat. How many times are we going to
say season? We'll see you season season on
another season of season of season of White.
Season we're going to see you next time and.
Season. My brain is literally short
circuiting. We will see you on another
season of White Collars, Red Hands.