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January 12, 2025 54 mins

This episode provides an in-depth exploration of canine separation anxiety and offers listeners valuable insights into understanding their pets’ emotional struggles. Through expert advice from Ness Jones, pet owners learn practical tools for creating a supportive environment, fostering independence, and strengthening the human-animal bond. 

• Distinction between separation anxiety and separation-related behaviors 
• Understanding the emotional state of dogs left alone 
• Importance of recognizing body language for distress signals 
• Gradual desensitization as a kinder training method 
• Human emotions and their effect on canine anxiety 
• Debunking common myths about managing separation anxiety 
• Seeking certified help in training and behavior consultation 
• Building confidence in dogs to alleviate separation issues 
• The vital connection between human and animal well-being

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Edward (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Whole Energy Body Balance
podcast, where we explore allkinds of possibilities and
practices that bring greaterhealing, connection and harmony
to pets, people and horses, andhopefully to the world too, and
we aim to inspire you, tochallenge you and to, hopefully,
you know, help give yousomething that you can act on to

(00:22):
create positive change andhealing in your life and in the
lives of the beings you care for.
I'm your host, dr Edward, thehealing vet, and I help deeply
caring people, pets and horsesunfold profound healing and
healthy relationships withsomatic awareness, loving,
therapeutic touch, intuitiveperception, kind training and

(00:42):
energy work, and I also practiceas an intuitive integrative
veterinarian, helping people allover the world.
Now I would love to introduceNess Jones, who is our guest
expert today.
Ness Jones is separationanxiety in dogs behavior
consultant and specialist, andshe takes a holistic approach in

(01:04):
helping dogs to becomeconfident and feel safe with
home alone time every time youwalk out the door, so welcome.

Ness Jones (01:12):
Thank you.
Thank you, dr Edward, pleasureto be here.
Thank you for joining us.

Dr Edward (01:17):
Yeah, so we're going to have fun today.
Who knows where ourconversation will end up and,
you know, always happy to takethe road.
Less travelled path, lesstravelled.
As we're having a conversation,I think it's really good to
explore, and exploring is thetheme of this whole series of
podcasts exploring life,exploring ways to make a

(01:37):
difference for our animals.

Ness Jones (01:40):
Yeah, that's lovely.

Dr Edward (01:42):
So we start off with a big question, because big
questions are good.
Big questions help stimulateinteresting conversations.
So, ness, who are you?
Why do you do what you do andhow did you get to where you are
in your life?

Ness Jones (01:57):
Oh, how did I get here?
That is a big question.
It's a bit of a long-winded oneso I'll try to keep it short.
But years ago, my first dog asas an adult so I wasn't a dog
trainer, didn't know anythingabout dogs um, he was a backyard
bred dog.
We bought him from a pet shop.
He was not, and we thought wewere doing all the right things

(02:21):
by feeding horrible, this reallyreally bad kibble, which we
thought was really expensivekibble, but it was really bad.
I won't mention the name and hehad lots and lots of health
issues and he was kind of thecatalyst I think.
You know, having a Rottweiler,you know you've got to train
them and make sure that they'rehealthy.

(02:42):
So I took him to the doggy youknow local doggy puppy school
and all those sort of things.
But he did end up having someserious health issues because of
his breeding and he ended upwith MMM, which is muscular
myotosis mastitis.

Dr Edward (03:01):
I forget the actual Muscular, muscle myositis.
I think yes, yes, yes,something like that.
Mmm, what are you talking about?

Ness Jones (03:04):
I forget the actual name Macular capillary muscle
myositis I think yes, yes, yes,something like that.

Dr Edward (03:06):
Is that what you were talking about?

Ness Jones (03:07):
And I went to a normal vet and they were like,
oh well, you know, basically youcould see the skull coming
through, you know like it wasthat bad.
And they said, if you don't dosomething about this he's not
going to be able to.
He could get to the point wherehe can't eat, can't open his
mouth, et cetera, et cetera.
And so, yeah, it was pretty bad.
And that vet said, well, puthim on cortisone.

(03:29):
And I was not that happy aboutthat outcome because I knew that
could cause other health issueslong term.
I ended up going to a holisticvet and they said, no, no, we're
going to do, we'll give themsome natural anti-inflammatories
, vitamin c changes, diet to rawfeeding, all those sort of
things.
That set me on the path of kindof looking into the natural

(03:53):
therapy.
So that was because I am a um,a qualified um, small animal
naturopath as well.
So that point, yeah, um.
So I like to take a holisticapproach with my clients.
Then we got a, a roddy bitch,as a companion to him and she,
when she was about seven monthsold.

(04:15):
I was working in an office atthis time.

Dr Edward (04:17):
She would put holes in the walls, so she um so this
is your first meeting with a dogwith high levels of separation,
anxiety, outpicturing indestructive behaviour.

Ness Jones (04:29):
Yeah, yeah, but I'd never heard of separation
anxiety.
I mean, I wasn't a dog trainer,I don't even know if it was a
common phrase back then in thosedays.
I mean, it is a while ago andwe literally knew it was her
because when we came, came home,there'd be powder all over her
snout and her legs and paws andstuff.
So she was definitely theculprit and there was literally

(04:52):
great big holes in theplasterboard.
You can imagine my husbandwasn't very happy no so had to
get on top of that.
And then, um, we got that rock.
The first roddy died, um passedaway and then we got that roddy
behind me and he's he's aworking line, proper breeding
etc, etc, and had to get intosome sort of dog training, like

(05:16):
serious dog training, with them.
So I started doing igp, whichis used to be called chutz and
it's called, and it was ipo, nowit's called IGP, but it's dog
sports or so tracking andobedience and a bit of bite work
as well.
Anyway, that kind of set me onthe path of wow, this is amazing
, this is a whole new world tome in terms of dogs and training

(05:38):
and what they can do.
So I started educating myselfin dog training and got some
qualifications in that regard.
And then COVID hit of coursethis is many years later and I
upskilled into learning moreabout separation-related
behaviours, because I had aclient at one stage and didn't

(06:00):
really feel like I was meetingtheir needs, because now the
things I would tell you if youhave a dog with
separation-related behaviours,the things I would tell you now
are completely different to thethings I would have told you
before I upskilled, pre-covidsort of things.
So that's kind of the.
In a nutshell, I start, youknow.
So I kind of the first coupleof dogs led me into dog training

(06:26):
and then that led me intoseparation-related behaviours.
Yeah.

Dr Edward (06:30):
Cool, yeah, it's opened the way isn't it that the
challenges we have either inour own health and wellbeing or
with our animals are what leadus to learn new things that work
, hopefully.

Ness Jones (06:44):
Yeah, totally yeah, so yeah.
So I do help clients all aroundthe world.
So yeah, and I think you saidwhy do I do it?
I know what people with dogswith separation anxiety or
separation-related behaviours Iknow what they're going through.
I know the stress it causesthem.

(07:04):
I know many of them feel likethey're prisoners in their own
homes.

Dr Edward (07:07):
Well, they are, yeah, they are.
It's not feeling like prisonersin their own home, they are
prisoners in their own home.

Ness Jones (07:16):
Totally.
And one lady in my Facebookgroup.
She called her dog a fairyjailer and I thought, yeah,
that's really appropriateactually.
And somebody else called theirdog a fairy jailer and I thought
, yeah, that's reallyappropriate actually.
And somebody else called theirdog an anchor, a fairy anchor,
and I thought, yeah, I get that,I get that, so yeah, so what I
do is me help people.
I guess, yeah.

Dr Edward (07:35):
Yeah.
So just to step back when youfirst started doing training
with dogs, and I'd be interestedto kind of learn a little bit
about your philosophy oftraining, and has that changed
over the years too?
How you interact with dogs, howyou teach dogs, how you build
relationship with dogs.

Ness Jones (07:53):
Oh, yes, yes, when I found this school here in my
area initially with the firstRottweiler, yes, it was very
different.
Training, thank goodness, isevolving all the time.
But back then, like, I was toldthat I must force my dog, my
Rottweiler, to stare at me, tolook me in the eyes, and if they

(08:15):
didn't want to do it, I had toforce them.
So basically, I was taking himoff into a room and holding him
and making him look into my eyes, like, like come here.

Dr Edward (08:25):
Dog, look at me.

Ness Jones (08:27):
Look at me and of course that's really bad doggy
communication.
I had no idea he was trying togo.
Oh, I don't want to do thatbecause you know it's
confrontational.
I mean really with a differentdog.
If somebody or a stranger haddone that, they could have
potentially been bitten.
You know you're trying, tryingto.
It could be construed by thedog as a sign of aggression.

(08:48):
So, um well, absolutely.

Dr Edward (08:52):
And you know, if a human comes up to you and stares
you right in the eye like that,it's kind of not very good
human communication either butluckily now my dogs all look me
in the eyes and it's more of ayou know that dopamine hit.

Ness Jones (09:06):
It's a hey, we're looking at each other, and isn't
this cool.
We're communicating by lookingat each other and it's a
completely different way ofcommunicating with my dogs to
what I was told to do back then.
I did try to do it and I went.
Well, this is something I don'tlike.
This, this is not right.
My dog doesn't like it.
Why am I doing?

Dr Edward (09:27):
this with gazing with your dogs.
Do you think that's a dopaminedominant hormone thing?
Or oxytocin?

Ness Jones (09:34):
oh, I don't know, um I, I it could be.
Yeah, it could be oxytocin.
Actually, I that's a goodquestion I can't answer.
I would think it'd be oxytocin?

Dr Edward (09:44):
Actually, that's a good question.
I can't answer.

Ness Jones (09:45):
I would think it'd be oxytocin.
Yeah, yeah, probably I mighthave misspoken, no that's all
right.

Dr Edward (09:50):
I'm just curious about it because you know
positive reinforcement trainingis very much a dopamine-driven
type hormonal profile.
Because you're giving treats,that's a dopamine hit.
Every time they get a treatit's a dopamine hit.
It's stimulating and it's notnecessarily really good at

(10:11):
building relationship andcertainly I'm more and more
interested in finding ways tohave oxytocin dominant
interactions while I'm workingwith animals yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ness Jones (10:18):
No, I I didn't misspeak, um, I just said the
wrong word.
But yeah, it is definitelyoxytocin and it is, you can,
that connection that you feelwhen they look.
They voluntarily look you inthe eyes and you know they're
telling you something or tryingto, or just even if it's I'm
telling you I love you, or um,or I want something, or let's do
this together, it's um, yeah,it's completely different to you

(10:41):
, will stare in my eyes, butthat's that's probably more an
adrenaline adrenaline andcortisol dominant hormone
profile.

Dr Edward (10:48):
If you're doing that real kind of more threatening
thing and certainly with mywhippet, if I get this kind of
I'm coming to get your energyshe goes oh and runs away.
But if I come up with a softgaze, she goes oh and connects
and goes deeper with that.
So they're very, very sensitiveto eye direction and intensity
of gaze and movement of youreyes, dogs, much more so than

(11:11):
most people realize, I thinkyeah, yeah, I mean that's just
one example of how training hasevolved and I mean, look, there
are still people in the darkages.

Ness Jones (11:20):
Um, in terms of the whole yank, and you know you
will sit.

Dr Edward (11:26):
And we will zap you with an electric shock if you do
not do what I say.
All that sort of stuff.

Ness Jones (11:31):
Yeah, but thankfully more and more people are
realising that's not the wayforward.

Dr Edward (11:37):
Okay, so today we're going to be exploring separation
anxiety, so I wonder if youcould tell me a little bit about
what separation anxiety is.

Ness Jones (11:47):
but I'd really like to hear you talk about what it
is from the perspective of thehuman, but also what it is from
the perspective of the dog okay,so it separation anxiety is is
the blanket term, is the termthat most people recognise, but
it really should be calledseparation-related behaviours

(12:08):
because it's not always based onanxiety.
And I would suggest that my dogMaya probably it wasn't that
she was anxious that we weren'tthere, it was a little bit of
teenage dog boredom, frustration, fear of missing out a little
bit of teenage dog boredom,frustration, fear of missing out

(12:30):
.
So not so much anxiety as thatkind of FOMO frustration.
So the behaviour was stillunwanted and still needed to be
addressed, but I wouldn't havesaid she was anxious so much.

Dr Edward (12:42):
So then let's step back a little bit.
How do you define anxiety?

Ness Jones (12:45):
Okay, Well, that's a good question.
So when we talk aboutseparation-related behaviours,
we're talking about what the dogdoes when they're left by
themselves to their own devices,and that can be.
Probably the most common wouldbe barking, howling, crying,
whining.
Then you have dogs that destroythings, destroy, put holes on

(13:09):
walls, destroy the couch aroundexit points, often because
they're trying to get out Dogsthat soil.
So if they're house trained andthe only time they soil in the
house is when you leave them, Iwould say that is definitely
anxiety.
Some dogs might react.
For me, when a dog is, whenit's the difference between

(13:33):
anxiety and maybe a dog that's ateenage dog, not getting its
needs met, not getting enoughexercise, not getting enough
mental stimulation, I'm notgoing to class that dog
necessarily as anxious.
Of course it depends.

Dr Edward (13:47):
So that dog might chew up a whole lot of pillows
and then go to sleep yeah, yeah.

Ness Jones (13:53):
So they, they.
They come through it, whereas adog that's anxious may not come
through it.
They may, just they may react.
Then they might be quiet, oryou know, stop reacting for a
little while, then they mightreact again.
Um, they just can't cope withit.
The only time that we see thatthey don't, that maybe oh, they

(14:13):
look nice and quiet now is maybewhen they're shut down.
So they've got to the pointwhere they don't know what to do
, so they just shut down.
And often a client or a dogguardian might say, oh, they're
nice and calm now.
But in fact the dog couldactually be in fear and just
doesn't know what to do anymoreand I suppose I see that kind of

(14:35):
freeze suppress state as atense stillness.

Dr Edward (14:41):
They're not relaxed, you know, you can see in their
body language and expressionsand they're usually still
hypervigilant unless they'vegone into complete collapse.
But it takes a lot to do that.
So can you get dogs that havethis separation anxiety that
that might not show any symptoms, like can it be kind of hidden?
Can you have dogs that youleave them and they might be

(15:03):
experiencing distress but notshowing anything that the humans
can see while people are notthere?

Ness Jones (15:09):
I well, if they're not, I mean, when you say not
showing, I mean what are wetalking about?

Dr Edward (15:13):
I mean well, I suppose I'm thinking about
something that if you had avideo, you might notice that
they're not behaving normally,but they're not being
destructive or anything.
So you can't tell without videoevidence, so to speak.
Yeah, so.

Ness Jones (15:30):
So part of the the way of addressing it is having a
pretty good understanding oftheir body language, and that
also comes down to theindividual.
So we need to know what the doglooks, that individual dog
looks like when they're happyand relaxed, and that when we
know what that should look like,then we can tell what they look
like when they're not.

(15:51):
So when you say they're notbehaving how they normally would
, then maybe we can say well,they are tense or they are, like
you know, building up anxietybecause they're not acting.
It's those subtle signs that wetalk about all the time.
So, understanding doggy bodylanguage, how they communicate

(16:11):
what they're trying to tell us,and then taking it a step
further and looking at your dogspecifically.
So this is what my dog lookslike when he's happy and relaxed
.
He is lying down in this video,but he's not acting like he
would normally.

Dr Edward (16:29):
Maybe he's lying down , but he's hypervigilant.

Ness Jones (16:31):
Yeah, exactly, and he doesn't down, but he's
hypervigilant.
Yeah, exactly.

Dr Edward (16:32):
And he doesn't settle , and if you're at home he might
put his head down and rest.
Yeah, something like that.

Ness Jones (16:38):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah , yeah, or maybe they just, you
know, there's some dogs, forexample, my girl, she's 10, she
hangs out by the door.
She, during the day when I'mhere, she'll go and lie down by
the door, the front door, justbecause it's a nice cool area
really.

(16:58):
But she hasn't got separationanxiety.
But if she did, maybe she waslying at the front door but she
was tense and stiff and frozenand statuesque sort of thing.
I would say, okay, okay, she'snormal in the sense that she's
lying by the front door, butshe's obviously really
uncomfortable so from the dog'sperspective?

Dr Edward (17:22):
I mean, this is probably not the easiest thing
to to say, because we we can't100 know what the dog's
experience is.
But what?
What's your kind of sense fromthe dog's perspective of what
it's like for them internally tohave this separation, anxiety
or separation related behaviors,which are generally aroused

(17:45):
type behaviors?

Ness Jones (17:46):
yeah, yeah, well, obviously it's kind of.
It triggers that fight, flightresponse, fight, flight, freeze
response.
Um, that's where we see dogstry to escape.
I had one client, kevin he.
He was left outside and heclimbed up onto the shed roof

(18:07):
because it was things right nextto the shed um, and shed roof
because it was things right nextto the shed um, and jumped over
the shed roof.
He was only a little staffy tooand over the fence.
So that is, uh, it's flightresponse, um.
And then we you hear of dogs.
I haven't had a client likethis, but I have heard on more

(18:27):
than one occasion some dogsjumping out of two-storyy
windows.

Dr Edward (18:31):
Oh, wow.

Ness Jones (18:32):
They're that panicked, I think dogs like that
.
Their thinking brain leavesthem behind.
You know there's no one home,they're just reacting.
They're not processing things,they're literally just reacting.
I have to get out of here.
So you get the freeze response,which is the, as you said, you

(18:52):
said, frozen, solid kind of.
Wherever they are, they can't.
um, sorry, my, my throat's goneall croaky that's all right um,
yeah, they, they just freeze,and then you have the dogs.
Maybe we could you couldn'tcall it fight.
Well, you, you could call itfight, but it might not look.
You know, they're not actuallyliterally fighting, but it could

(19:12):
be that they're destroyingsomething.
They're, um, they've got theirstress and they're trying to
download that stress into it.
Could be a toy, could be thecouch, could be the wall, so
yeah, so I think internally it'snot great for them that you've
got that cortisol reaction.
And can you imagine being infight-flight every time your

(19:36):
loved one walks out the door?
It would be awful.

Dr Edward (19:39):
What do you think is the emotional state of these
dogs when they're left alone?

Ness Jones (19:46):
Well, not great.
I mean they're stressed,they're distressed um and
they're anxious.
I mean I I don't think my girlmaya that put the holes in the
wall.
I don't think that was it.
It there was a level of stress,but it is not wasn't based on
anxiety.
So, and it depends, of course,on the dog.

(20:07):
So some dogs have generalizedanxiety on top of the separation
related behaviors.

Dr Edward (20:12):
So those dogs really are 24 7 fight flight, which is
really, really unhealthy yeah, Ijust spoke with someone who's
going to be working with metoday and they've got a dog
that's got separation anxiety.
It doesn't have any other kindof anxiety.
I think that's the first dogwith separation anxiety in a
long time that hasn't had atleast one other flavour of

(20:33):
anxiety going on as well.
Nearly always there's more thanone kind, yeah.

Ness Jones (20:40):
I think I've certainly had plenty of clients
that have got both, but I alsoget ones that are anxious about
being left.
However, it's more a case ofthey literally haven't learned
to be by themselves.
So, um, everything else,they're really robust, they're
really confident in the big wideworld.
It's a question I always ask,but perhaps they were adopted

(21:04):
during covid and they neverlearned to be by themselves.
So, yeah, the anxiety is stillthere, but it's just for it's
just around being by themselves,because they don't know what
they don't know.
They're like oh, what is this?

Dr Edward (21:15):
I don't like this so they've never learned how to be
by themselves.
I reckon that is something thatI would really like to explore
with you and and see what youthink about.
So when, when does that begin,and what does it mean about a
dog that can't be by itself?
And I mean, I think a lot ofdogs can't even be by themselves

(21:38):
with the humans in the house.
They're kind of on top of thehuman like a rash.

Ness Jones (21:42):
Yeah, yeah, and the lovely flow and effect of this
training is that independencecomes naturally.
So you're not, I don't likecreating forced independence.
So I know there's probably sometrainers out there they're like
oh, we've got this puppy or anew dog and it has to be, has to
learn to be by itself, so let'slock it in a room or something
like that, and all they're doingis anxiety and making that

(22:03):
puppy really, really worriedabout being by itself.
So they're not doing it in akind, gentle way where the dog
builds confidence.
For me it's about buildingconfidence.
Yeah, so there are trainersthat unfortunately will refuse
to take clients, um, unless thedog is on medication and really

(22:29):
you're kidding me right, no, no,this I know of at least one um,
maybe two um, I don't know that.
How common it is, I really don'tknow.
I can't answer that because Idon't.
I don't go investigating, butI'm not one of those trainers.
If a dog has generalizedanxiety, I will say, yes, go and
talk to your vet, maybe.
Maybe we need to address this.
But if it's just a dog, likewe're talking about, that has

(22:52):
never learned to be bythemselves, then I'm going to
say, hey, we just need to teachthem to be confident when, when,
when they're alone, um, and Ithink I think there's a big
difference.
I don't think we need to putdogs on medication if they don't
need to be, but in terms ofteaching a dog, so I like to
draw the analogy of a toddler.
So if, if you're a top, ifyou've got a toddler and you

(23:15):
want to teach them to swim,you're not going to take them by
the hand, lead them up to thedeep end of the pool, yeah, off
you.
Go see you later.
Because what's going to happen?
The toddler is going to panic,they're going to scream.
They is going to panic, they'regoing to scream, they're going
to cry, they're going to grunt,but probably you're going to

(23:35):
build a fear of water forever,like they're never going to want
to go near a swimming pool everagain or a body of water ever
again.
And so if we do that to ourpuppies, if we say, right, well,
you're just a dog, get over it,you know, and you should be
able to cope with this, becauseyou're a dog, get over it, you
know, you should be able to copewith this, because you're a dog
, off, you go and I'm out thedoor, then we're potentially

(23:55):
doing that to them, we're doingthe toddler, throwing them into
the water.
Yeah, so what I prefer to do isdo it in a kind, gentle way and
do it using desensitisation,where the puppy learns
confidence in the pool in thewater, learns confidence in in
the in the pool in the water um,yeah, put them in the shallow

(24:16):
end exactly so.
If you had a toddler, you wouldtake them into the shallow end.
You'd probably go on with themand you would build their
confidence in the water.
Um and so same with the puppyor a new rescue, for example, if
you don't want to assume thatthey're going to be okay, or
maybe your dog is okay but youmove home and it's a completely.
If you don't want to assumethat they're going to be okay,
or maybe your dog is okay butyou move home and it's a
completely new environment.
You don't want to go out to getNando's for dinner and come

(24:39):
back five hours later, you know,and this dog, who's fine
normally, is in this newenvironment and freaking out.
So you have to just doing itgradually.

Dr Edward (24:55):
So how much do you think that humans and I think
this is often unconscious, bythe way, I don't think that
humans deliberately do this kindof stuff, but how much do you
think humans contribute towardsthis lack of dogs being able to
self-regulate without the human?
Because I suppose that'sanother way that I would look at

(25:16):
this is that the dog can'tregulate themselves emotionally
and physiologically without ahuman need so how much do humans
play a role in it?

Ness Jones (25:25):
do you mean?

Dr Edward (25:26):
in terms of creating this dependence.
In a way, it's's a dependence,isn't it?
The animal needs the human, orthey freak out.

Ness Jones (25:34):
Yeah, I mean in terms of also, how much do
humans?
I think there can be that needy, I don't know, I don't have a
word that's the right way, butI'll use the word needy
relationship.
So you know.
But I'm not one of thesetrainers that say, well, you
know, you must ignore the dogwhen you come home for five

(25:55):
minutes or anything like that.
So I for me, it's about whenyou leave.
If the dog, if I got up now, mydogs would all be like where
are you going?
I don't mind if they follow mearound the house and they're
really affectionate animals.
And if they follow me aroundthe house and they're really
affectionate animals and I'm nottoo worried about that really
Do they contribute, I think, interms of their own anxiety?

(26:16):
Humans, for sure.
So when the human is walkingout the door and they're anxious
about how their dog's going togo, then yeah, or several of my
clients have anxiety, so it'sanxiety that was already there
before the dog came in.
Um, I think you as a, as ahuman, with a dog, with

(26:38):
separation anxiety, that's goingto make you anxious.
But I think if you've alreadygot anxiety and you bring in a
dog, that's probably definitelywell, it's definitely going to
impact the dogs.
We know, I've seen it severaltimes when I've got a client and
they're doing the exercises andthey get to the last step,
which is, you know, the targettime that we want them to to

(26:59):
achieve, um, for that particularsession, and I'm watching on a
video and the dog suddenly hasbeen doing really well and then
suddenly it's been doing reallywell and then suddenly it's gets
really, you know, obviouslyfeeling uncomfortable.
And I'll ask, I'll ask theclient, like, are you nervous

(27:19):
about this?
And I am, or anxious about howthat last step is going to go.
And it's completelyunderstandable because, yeah,
they're so invested in it, theywant their lives back, they
don't want to feel likechristmas any longer, and
they'll say yes, whenever I getto that last step, I get worried
and anxious and it definitelyimpacts their dog.
So then I'll be saying, right,well, we, you need to do

(27:43):
something like take some deepbreaths, hang your head down.
You know, do that, um, standingforward, fold and put your head
down.
Um, it's a yoga pose andanybody can do it.
And if you couldn't do itstanding up, you could do it
sitting down and it just helpsyou calm down, it just helps the
brain to feel calmer, and I'lljust get them to do something

(28:04):
that helps them relax.
So the dog does better.

Dr Edward (28:07):
So there is definitely an impact between the
dog and the human so, um, wouldI be right in thinking that
you're also trying to help thehuman become a strong regulatory
anchor for the whole system?

Ness Jones (28:24):
yeah, I mean yes, definitely.
So um, trying, you know,encourage them to do yoga or
meditate or put on some calmingmusic, anything that can help
them calm down, and of coursethen we have the, you know, go
for a walk in nature.
So I always say you can trainfive days a week, but I want you

(28:47):
to take two days off a week.
I want you to remember whyyou've got your dog.
Go out and enjoy them.
Go out into into nature, go andhave some fun together.
Just we'll go and just sitsomewhere together in nature and
just re, you know, decompressand help help your dog also
consolidate the training.
But just go and reconnect withall the good stuff so that you

(29:09):
feel better about everything yougot to have some fun as you do
this, right yeah, yeah, yeah,it's not all work and because I
think you you asked me at thebeginning about what the humans
go through, I think and there'sno shame in this, um but I think
and I have heard people say,yes, I, I, I am one of these
people, but I, I think they canget to the point where they

(29:32):
start resenting their dog andthat makes them feel guilty and
it makes them feel anxious aswell, but they can end up
resenting their dog because theydidn't sign up for this.
They wanted to go skipping offinto the sunset, absolutely.

Dr Edward (29:47):
Go out and have fun and leave the dog at home.

Ness Jones (29:54):
Yeah, yeah.
So I try to encourage themthrough that as well and get
them through that, because itmakes me sad that you know they
can feel that way and that's notjust separation related.
It could be that their dog'sreactive and they want to go and
meet people at the dog park andthey can't because their dog's
yeah.

Dr Edward (30:10):
So then, what's, what's your kind of pathway to
helping people?
How do you help people overcomeand transcend separation
anxiety when they are and youknow I've had a number of
clients like this too that theycannot leave their home with
that.
They just can't yeah, um, it's.

Ness Jones (30:31):
It's of all, like I said, body language.
We need to have a goodunderstanding of body language,
but it starts with adesensitization program so that
the dog is feeling confidentabout the alone time, and so it
is gradual exposure, so we don'twant to flood the dog.

Dr Edward (30:49):
So what we often hear , and I would say 99.9% let's
define flooding, because peopleout there might be going
flooding.
What the hell does floodingmean?
I've never heard of that.

Ness Jones (31:01):
Yeah, yeah.
So I would say 99% of myclients have done this.
And it's the old oh, you've gota dog that can't be left alone.
Well, they're just a dog, letthem bark it out, they'll be
fine.
So we're forcing the dog into asituation that it's
uncomfortable with and insteadof using gradual exposure

(31:23):
therapy where we're just saying,just do it and so, instead of
instead of saying, okay, so I'm,I'm terrified of cockroaches.
Yeah, you know, you're inaustralia.
I don't know what, how big theyare where you are, but but in
Queensland they're pretty scary.
I'm so terrified of cockroachesI won't go near a dead one.

(31:44):
I've told my husband because inQueensland cockroach season is
in summer.
I don't know about down there,but you know so maybe from now
until March, april, cockroaches,and I can't even go near dead
ones.
And I told my husband, becausehe's English, if he goes back to
England, he's not allowed to goduring cockroach season because

(32:08):
I don't know what to do ifthere's a cockroach.
He bought a box of baits andthere's a photo of a cockroach
like on the outside and I'm likeI can't even go near the box of
eggs you must put a stickerover that image yeah, all right
so, but so flooding would belike if you were using gradual

(32:29):
exposure therapy, you know, in asetting you know health, a
mental health setting, I guessyou would maybe get that photo
of the on the box, would have itfor me about five miles away
yeah, you know a long distanceaway, and maybe that would be my
first exposure to the scarycockroach and that's a photo on

(32:53):
a box, and then you mightgradually move it closer and
closer and closer and then maybeyou'd have one in a jar or
something.
You know you would use thatgradual expression.

Dr Edward (33:02):
Yeah, yeah, theoretically, you titrate the
intensity of the stimulus to apoint where the being can stay.
Regulated might be another wayto say it.

Ness Jones (33:11):
yeah, yeah, yeah, theoretically that would be a
good way for me to get over myfear of cockroaches.
Now if you were going to floodme with cockroaches instead of
doing this, let's not even gothere.

Dr Edward (33:25):
I think everyone knows what we're talking about
here.
I think even talking aboutflooding you with cockroaches
would cause you some distress.

Ness Jones (33:33):
I don't think we need to do that.
Yeah, so you get the idea.
It would be like a wall ofcockroaches coming at me or
locking me in a cupboard withcockroaches.
Yeah, yeah which is a good point, actually.
So I do use this analogybecause I've got a little bit of
claustrophobia and I think thisis a really important point to
talk about dogs and crates aswell, as you know kind of a dual

(33:53):
fear.
So you've got um, maybe they'vegot containment phobia, which
is pretty much the same asclaustrophobia, and they're
scared of being by themselves.
So the analogy I draw is oh,we're gonna be trigger stacking
yeah, yeah.
So so the I got claustrophobiaand I'm scared of cockroaches.
So if you locked me into acupboard or something and filled

(34:17):
up full of cockroaches, I wouldstart screaming and crying and
let me out, let me out, whichwould be the reaction that a dog
has to being, you know, help,help, help.
Somebody come and help me.
When nobody came, I would shutdown and that would be what that
looks like.
Oh, I don't know what to doanymore.
And so, for a dog, obviously,then we see that correlation as
well.

Dr Edward (34:41):
Yeah, I remember with with our little whippet, um,
when we got her, we did put herin the crate, but we were right
there with her and she expresseda lot of very loud outrage at
that.
Even you know, even though wewere right there, she still
wasn't very happy with it and Ispent a lot of time teaching her
about being in the crate andusing relaxing touch and staying

(35:01):
there and and helping her stayin the crate with me being right
there with her and helping herregulate until she could
regulate enough to stay in thereand be be okay with it.
And now she goes in there byherself.
She loves it.
You know she sleeps in thereevery night.
We say in your bed and she says, oh, I'll jump up on your bed,
just hopeful mine are on my bedat night, crates for um dogs of

(35:28):
separation anxiety.

Ness Jones (35:30):
I mean, as you say, some dogs find it like they
enjoy they, they find thatthey're safe space, but um many
dogs do better without beingconfined in a crate, when we
leave them by themselves, ofcourse.

Dr Edward (35:42):
I'd agree.
I'd agree.

Ness Jones (35:44):
But yeah, some dogs will take themselves off into a
crate, but most dogs do betterwith more space.

Dr Edward (35:51):
But the dogs that take themselves off into a crate
, I would say that nearly all ofthem had been taught that the
crate is a safe place and they'dbeen given time and space to
make that crate somewhere thatthey feel safe and comfortable
in.

Ness Jones (36:04):
Yeah, no, no, I think like again, it's that
whole claustrophobic containmentphobia thing.
Some dogs are perfectly happyto be in the crate, except when
you're not there.

Dr Edward (36:21):
Okay, cool, that's good to know.
So what you want to do isdesensitisation, slowly and
carefully and kindly, in a waythat the dog doesn't escalate
into that hot orange red zoneswhere their brain turns off and
they're probably actually thenreinforcing the problem.

Ness Jones (36:39):
yeah, yeah, so I talk about, um, safe absences,
and those are the ones where thedog feels comfortable and
confident.
Um, we talk about thresholds,so the easiest way of explaining
that is is the panic line.
So anything above there the dogis doing all those reactions we
don't want.
So the barking, howling, crying, the destruction of things

(37:02):
trying to escape, soiling, um,if they're over threshold, then
that's going to undermine ourtraining.
So I talk about keeping them inthe safe zone.
But what we also have torecognize is that before we hit
that panic line, there could bea lot of subtle signs and a lot

(37:22):
of things that the dog'sdisplaying.
What they're trying to tell you.
Oh, I'm starting to feeluncomfortable with this.
That's why understanding theirbody language is so important.
Yeah, and then if we have a safeabsence dog has a safe absence
at whatever time the dog'scomfortable with and we know
what the threshold is, then wehopefully can gradually increase

(37:45):
that time and the threshold.

Dr Edward (37:48):
Here comes the whippet.
If you're on video, you can seeJen.
Oh, the naughty, naughtywhippet who's grown I don't know
a few inches in the last month.

Ness Jones (37:57):
How beautiful.

Dr Edward (37:58):
He's very, very lovely.
Yeah, four inches in the lastmonth.
He's beautiful.

Ness Jones (38:00):
He's very, very lovely.
Yeah, he's got a lovely face.

Dr Edward (38:02):
Not unusual that we have a dog.
Come and join us in the podcast, because that's what we do so
are there any kind ofmisconceptions around separation
, anxiety around how to dealwith it, around the whole
journey that you think it'simportant for people to be aware
of?

Ness Jones (38:21):
Yeah, I mean I mentioned the whole let them
bark it out thing.
Most of my clients, as I said,by the time they've got to me
they've tried all the things andthat is one of them and they
all say it made them worse.
So that's one.
Some dogs a robust dog that's,you know, better able to cope

(38:42):
with life might be fine, but formany dogs it's actually a
negative for them and it can setthem back and make their lives,
make their absences a lotharder for them.
Unfortunately, there's somepeople that are a little bit
accusatory and will say well,you caused this.

Dr Edward (39:00):
Oh you bad human.
You made your dog anxious.

Ness Jones (39:03):
You spoiled your dog and this is your fault, which
is not helpful at all.
I had one lady in my Facebookgroup and she said she had a
friend who's no longer a friend.
But she said that.
The friend said to her well,you caused this problem because

(39:24):
you took your dog to the park,you took your dog out, you took
it to the groomers or youbrushed it or something along
those lines, and what you shouldreally do is chain that dog up
in the backyard.

Dr Edward (39:34):
Well, that's not helpful, though I do believe
that humans, mostly unwittingly,can contribute to the problem.

Ness Jones (39:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, probably, I think more so
in the sense that maybe theyexpect too much from the dog
before it's ready.

Dr Edward (39:55):
Yeah, I think the other thing is that humans well,
in my experience, in mypractice, is that humans are
really really bad at boundarieswith dogs really bad at
understanding how to expressboundaries and how to um express
boundaries around closepersonal space, and I think that
dogs can become kind of use thehuman as a drug to regulate and

(40:17):
not learn how to be on theirown, even with the human.

Ness Jones (40:21):
Yeah, and we do have to teach them to be by
themselves, oh absolutely.
Yeah.

Dr Edward (40:25):
Absolutely, we do.

Ness Jones (40:27):
I don't know.
I mean I've never.
Maybe it's just because I'm atrainer, but I mean my dogs are
always with me in general,unless I have to go out.
Of course, we love cuddles.

Dr Edward (40:45):
I bet you $50 you can say out to your dog and they
would stay out of your personalspace if you're asking them to.
Yeah, and a lot of my clientsnever done that, don't know how
to do it, have no idea about it,and that's kind of what I'm
talking about here.

Ness Jones (40:59):
Right, okay, yeah yeah, let me think on some other
.
Can I tell you a little story?
Yeah, I'd love a story, becausewhen someone's dealing with
this issue, the first thing theydo is, well, obviously, they're
getting unsolicited advice fromfamily and friends, and I'd
really like to say if somebodysays to you, I'm not a dog

(41:20):
trainer, but you should do X, y,z, they're not dog trainers,
don't listen to them.
The other part of this is,though, not all dog trainers are
specialists inseparation-related behaviours.
So, as I said before, what Iwould have told you years ago is
completely different to what Iwould have told you years ago is
completely different to what Iwould have told you now, and we
talked about how training isevolving all the time, which is

(41:42):
so good, um, so you know, thenext thing people do after the
unsolicited advice is jump on Dr, google and it's so confusing
and it's so much conflictinginformation out there, um, so
then after that they'll go.
Well, I need to get a trainernow.
I had this lady reach out to meand she had a beautiful dog

(42:04):
called billy.
He's a leopard doodle.
I think it was a while ago now,um, and she was struggling with
this issue and she had triedmedication from the vets.
Um, she had tried the thunderjackets, the calming chews.
Um, the, the separation anxiety.
She said it was so bad.
When she came home, the dog itwas like it was had a bath, it

(42:29):
had drawled.

Dr Edward (42:30):
So much yeah, yeah wrenched um.

Ness Jones (42:33):
But billy had a great life.
He was like his normal lifebefore this trainer came along.
Right, he went.
She lived near the beach, sothey went to the beach once a
day, maybe twice a day.
They went to the park, theywent on doggy play dates.
He was raw fed.
She gave him a little bit ofobedience training, a little bit
of enrichment.
He just, I mean, if you wereher dog you couldn't want for a

(42:54):
better life.
It was amazing.
He just I mean, if you were herdog you couldn't want for a
better life.
It was amazing.
Lived in the house with her,all that sort of stuff.
His only issue was theseparation-related behaviours.
So he didn't know what to do.
So she reached out to a trainerin her area.
This is what he told her.
This is why I say, if you'regoing to find a trainer for this
issue, please find one that iscertified in separation anxiety

(43:21):
issue.
Please find one that iscertified in separation anxiety.
So he said no more parks, nomore dog walks, no more beach,
no more doggy play dates, nomore enrichment.
I knew you said, head on yourhands, no more enrichment, no
more obedience, no more road, nomore attention, no more
anything.
In fact, you are going to lockthat, you're going to buy
yourself a pen or a crate andyou're going to put it in the

(43:42):
backyard now, bearing in mind,this dog was an indoor dog,
lived in the house with her, andyou're going to leave that dog
in that crate or pen.
He can have some water, butyou're not to feed it.
How kind you're not to feed it.
You get a bowl of kibble andyou're supposed to put it on the
outside of the crate, where thedog can smell it but can't

(44:04):
access it, and you don't feedthat dog until I tell you to.
And that is going to cure yourdog.
Separation anxiety.

Dr Edward (44:12):
Well, it might turn the dog into a shutdown zombie,
but that's about all I did.
Put my head in my hands becausethat is just the worst advice I
think I've ever heard anyonegive.

Ness Jones (44:24):
Yeah, it would make it ten times worse, and can you
imagine the damage that would doto their relationship?

Dr Edward (44:31):
Oh God, yeah.
And you know, I mean we couldjust quickly say that aversive
training in general damagesrelationship with your dog, so
don't do it.

Ness Jones (44:40):
Yeah, yeah.
So she actually bought thecrate or the pen, I forget which
and she put it in her backyardand then she thought what am I
doing?
I can't do this to my dog.
I love my dog.
And so then she reached out toa Facebook group and found me.
But, yeah, thank goodness,thank goodness.

Dr Edward (44:59):
That is frankly horrible yeah.

Ness Jones (45:05):
It's scary, yeah.
So yeah, I just urge people tobe cautious about who they
contact for help.

Dr Edward (45:11):
Oh look, absolutely, and I agree with you Absolutely.
And sometimes these dogs doneed medication.
By the way, sometimes you getbetter outcomes with medication
and sometimes you get greatoutcomes without medication.

Ness Jones (45:24):
I think one of my big things is, as a holistic
practitioner, is you've got tobe open to all the possibilities
for treatment and notfundamentalist I think, talking
about vets as well, I think it'simportant to note that a dog
that's in pain maybe or hasallergies so arthritis,

(45:46):
allergies, gastro issues Ialways encourage people to go
and get a vet check and rule outany physical issues that might
be going on, because that cancertainly impact and I've had
numerous clients where they'vebeen doing really well with
their training and then theallergies hit and we've gone
backwards and we've had toaddress that to be able to move
forward.
The other thing is we've got torecognise that an older, senior

(46:10):
dog might, you know, they mightbe going blind or, you know,
losing their sight or theirhearing, or they've got
arthritic pain and they're justcognitive decline.
So all these things areimportant to know, and that's
where the vets come in, for sure.

Dr Edward (46:27):
Absolutely Awesome.
So we're going to wrap this upwith a couple of final questions
that we'd like to ask.
What do you think is humanity'sbiggest blind spot when it
comes to your work and and ourshared journey of healing and
evolution as humans on thisplanet?
Our biggest blind spot inrelation to separation anxiety

(46:52):
well, relation to dogs and lifeand anything and everything
really.
It's another one of these bigquestions.

Ness Jones (46:58):
Yeah, I think it is changing, thank goodness, but I
think people there's still a lotof people out there that it's a
dog, it should do what it'stold.
They don't see the creature infront of them, and it applies to
all animals, not just dogs,obviously, but as a sentient

(47:20):
being, as a being that hasemotions and feelings and feels
pain, and you know it's just,you know that attitude of it's
just a dog.
It should just do what it'stold.
You know, and that's it.
And I think that is, as I said,thank goodness it's changing,
but I do think that is an issuefor some people.

Dr Edward (47:42):
Yeah, I agree, and certainly that has been a
historical thing, that animalsare just put here by God for
humans to exploit and extractwhatever they want from them.

Ness Jones (47:54):
Yeah.

Dr Edward (47:55):
That is not good and certainly my very, very strong
knowing it goes beyond belief.
My strong knowing is thatanimals have an emotional,
mental life of consciousness andfeelings just like we do.

Ness Jones (48:10):
Yeah, absolutely yeah, I know for sure.
And talking about the wholeregulation thing, when my dogs
look at me, they it's I can'tthink of the right word but it's
a mutual understanding.
They know what I'm feeling,they know who I am emotionally
as well, and I hope to think Iknow where they are.

Dr Edward (48:31):
Look honestly, I believe dogs are way better at
that than humans, Way better.

Ness Jones (48:37):
I think they know before we know.

Dr Edward (48:41):
And the final question that we'll leave you
all with for this episode, whichis all about exploring
separation anxiety what is thechange that you want to be and
inspire others to be in thisworld?

Ness Jones (48:54):
Hmm, gosh, I think again I think it touches back on
that point recognizing thatthey are animals or beings that
have feelings and emotions.
And if we can change people'sperceptions of is just a dog,
then we're building betterconnections, with connections

(49:17):
for the humans and for the dogs.
So it's, you know, it's greatfor the dogs, obviously, to have
a human that is seeing them inthat light, but I think it's
also good for the humans toappreciate that as well.
I probably could have wordedthat better, but yeah, I think
you get my point.
Yeah, do I answer your question?

Dr Edward (49:38):
I think so.
I think what I hear is that youwant to show people through
your actions and your work thattheir animals are just as
sensitive and emotional andconscious and and beautiful as
they are yeah, yeah, for sure,for sure.

Ness Jones (49:55):
And um, yeah, being able to wreck people to
recognize that.
And for me, just for my, youknow, helping people get their
lives back is important to me,and just as important as helping
the dog learn that it's okay tobe by themselves.
That's, you know.
I like what I do because it isa place for me to help people

(50:20):
and dogs.

Dr Edward (50:21):
Beautiful.
So where can people find you ifthey've got an anxious dog and
they think, wow, it sounds likeNess would be someone who I can
work with online, and I knowthat you work equally happily
online and in person, because intoday's world we can reach out
anywhere in the world to helppeople through the medium of the
internet.
Where can people find you andhow can you help them?

Ness Jones (50:41):
Yeah, sure, it's really easy.
Just nesjonescom.
Just jump on my website.
You can book a free 30-minuteZoom call with me.
If you can't find a time, thenthey can just email me at hello
at nesjones.
Nice and easy com.
Hello at nesjonescom and I canrearrange my calendar.
But yeah, there's also a freePDF on that website too.

(51:02):
So it's kind of drilling downinto some of the things that
dogs do to help you understand abit of body language and also
the importance of the context ofwhat is happening.
You know why the dog might bedoing this and is it something
to worry about or not to worryabout?

Dr Edward (51:18):
Beautiful.
Thank you so much, ness, andit's been an absolute pleasure.
It's been a really interestingconversation today and um a
really important topic toexplore in depth.
Who knows, we might have youback on for another episode
sometime, sometime down thetrack, but for now we're going
to say goodbye to you all and inthe meantime, we'd both love

(51:41):
you to give your dogs and cats apat from us, but also, I think,
we'd both love for you to be aslovely to yourselves as you are
to your animals today.

Ness Jones (51:50):
Yes, absolutely, yes , yes, for sure.
Thank you so much, dr Edward.
It's been a pleasure and thankyou very much for doing this and
helping dog lovers around theworld and their four-footed
fairy friends and horses and allthe animals you work with.

Dr Edward (52:10):
And the humans too.

Ness Jones (52:11):
And the humans, yeah .

Dr Edward (52:13):
Beautiful.
We'll see you in the next one.
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