October 28, 2024 • 50 mins
What if dissociation is more common than you'd think, quietly influencing our daily lives? Join us, Laura Wood and Michaela Beaver, as we unpack the intricate world of dissociation, often misunderstood and overlooked. We explore dissociation's role as a protective mechanism against overwhelming emotions or sensory overload. This episode sheds light on our brain's natural inclination to disconnect, from the innocuous zoning out during a TV binge to the complex dynamics in children forming their personalities amid trauma.
As we navigate the nuances of various dissociative experiences, we tackle the unsettling sensation of feeling like a stranger in your own life. Our conversation delves into the differences between dissociative identity disorder (DID) and other conditions, breaking down how memory and identity awareness play distinct roles. Understanding these differences can clarify the boundaries between dissociation and psychosis, helping listeners gain a clearer perspective on their internal experiences and the lifelong journey of symptoms that often begin in childhood.
Finally, we explore the fascinating link between trauma, somatic symptoms, and the healing journey. By integrating grounding techniques, somatic work, and strategies like heart rate variability training, we offer practical paths to self-understanding and healing. Together, we emphasize the importance of self-compassion and the transformative power of acknowledging our emotional roots. Join us for a compassionate dialogue that encourages listeners to embrace their unique experiences and empowers them toward growth and self-awareness.
Laura's Free Course on Emotional Development and Regulation:
https://benavieri.com/neuroception-sign-up/
This show is sponsored by:
Core Self
Benavieri Counseling & Coaching
www.benavieri.com
Active Healing Psychiatric Services
www.activehealingpsych.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura (00:00):
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:10):
Hi and I'm M Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Laura (00:15):
So, M, why are we doing this?
Michaela (00:17):
podcast.
I'm so glad you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better how the
things you learned aboutyourself and the world and
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
things about ourselves you mightwonder about, like why am I so
jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everything sopersonally?
(00:38):
Why are my thoughts so negative?
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all?
Laura (00:43):
the time negative.
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all the time?
Yes, and today we are talkingabout dissociation and we are
going to try to answer thefollowing questions what is
dissociation and what is itspurpose?
When is it a problem?
What can we do to get back intothe present?
So let's get into it.
What dissociation, what is thisand why are we doing it?
Michaela (01:08):
okay.
So I would say, likedissociation is disconnecting
from ourselves, from our likeemotions, our thoughts, feelings
, kind of being disconnectedfrom the present.
Laura (01:24):
Yeah, I think of when we are overloaded or overwhelmed
and we kind of just zone out alittle.
But I hear dissociation saidall the time.
I hear especially now latelyI've been hearing like oh, I'm
dissociating, or people saydisassociating, which drives me
(01:45):
crazy because that's not what itis.
So what do you think people aretalking?
What do you think they meanwhen they say that?
Michaela (01:55):
Well, I think that they're hearing a lot of things,
probably like on TikTok, and Ithink that people are the word
about things is getting out more, and so people are registering
that this is the thing thatthey're doing.
Right, because we all do it.
We all get into that daydreamy,hypnotic state.
(02:16):
Maybe we drove our car fromhome to work and we're like man,
that was fast, how did I gethere?
That's kind of being in thathypnotic, dissociated state, and
so I think that people arehearing these things and
recognizing that it's somethingthat they're doing, that they
they feel when they they get alittle bit you know, they got
(02:37):
into a fight with their parentsor their friends and they just
kind of want to check out fromthose feelings for a little bit.
I think that even being on likeTikTok itself is dissociated.
Yeah, you're probably rightabout that.
You're using that as a skill toget out of what you're feeling.
Laura (02:59):
Yeah, I think about it like zoned out.
I think about it like zoned outor when you're like if you're
watching TV and somebody'stalking to you and you just
can't hear them and you're justso tuned into the television or
to whatever you're doing orwatching that you have no idea
what's going on around you.
You're just sort of in your ownworld.
(03:21):
I guess I could say is the waythat I hear it described a lot
In your own world.
I guess I could say is the waythat I hear it described a lot.
But you know, like you said, weall do this.
Why do we do this?
We dissociate all the time.
We have dissociative processeshappening all the time that are
(03:42):
totally normal and that ourbrains are just doing this.
Because if we were to beregistering consciously every
single thing that's going onaround us at all times, we would
totally explode.
It would be way too much.
There's so much stimulation,there's so many thoughts and
there's so many pieces ofinformation floating around
(04:03):
around us all the time that ourbrains just can't possibly be on
and alert at all times.
And so we sort of check out andour brain gives us a break.
It's like taking a rest fromthe world and from all of the
things that are going on in ourminds and bodies and in our
(04:23):
environment that are going on inour minds and bodies and in our
environment, right?
Michaela (04:32):
And so then, like in someone who maybe doesn't have
more of that, like, isn't justthat normal coping mechanism,
right?
Someone who may have had likeearly childhood trauma, how does
that change in that time of,you know, affecting those kids?
Laura (04:48):
Well, the purpose is still the same.
So kids are always kids arereally dissociative because
their brains are inherentlydissociated.
They're not connected yetthey're not integrated.
Integration is the process oflearning and growing up and
learning.
I should say that the other wayLearning is integrating right.
(05:09):
So when we are growing up we'relearning information and we're
integrating information.
But when we're babies ouraction systems are all pretty
separate.
We have an action system forsleep, we have an action system
for food, we have an actionsystem for connection and
attachment, and so we're usingthose action systems pretty
disparately.
(05:29):
They're not interconnectednecessarily within ourselves
just yet.
We don't have a sense of a wholeself when we're born.
We just have a sense of, like,getting needs met right, and
then we start developing apersonality and that's when our
brain starts to integrate andinterconnect all of these
different aspects of ourselfinto one whole self.
(05:50):
But that doesn't really fullyoccur until we're, you know,
adolescents and even earlyadults.
We're still learning andintegrating all the time and
with neuroplasticity our brainsare constantly capable of doing
more of that.
Like, personalities can change.
They change over time.
(06:11):
There's, I think, the myth ofthe personality test that one
person can take and as if that'sgoing to be fixed for your
entire life is just simply nottrue.
We change and grow and learn.
There are aspects of ourpersonalities that are sort of
(06:31):
inborn, but they're changeabletoo.
At the same time, with anylearning we do, we have the
opportunity to make differentdecisions, have the opportunity
to make different decisions solike, for example, a child who
is not experiencing trauma, ismaybe daydreaming and has a
really vivid imagination and hasan imaginary friend for
(06:55):
connection.
That's a dissociative process.
Right, we're just dissociative.
As kids.
We sort of find different waysof our mind.
Our mind is just working withus in different ways, and so
having an imaginary friend is away to combat loneliness or to
find entertainment in boringthings, a way to avoid negative
(07:19):
feelings of aloneness or ofisolation or anything like that.
We have an imaginary friend.
Most of us can remember havingsomething like that as a child,
and then we can simply grow outof it because it's not
pathological, it's just brains.
And then somebody who does havea lot of trauma might have an
(07:40):
imaginary friend that is savingthem from that trauma or even
taking on the trauma themselves.
So perhaps the other isactually the one experiencing
the trauma and it's not me.
And that's helpful because itsaves me from having to fully
know and embody that experience,because I still need to be
(08:02):
connected with my attachmentfigures and I can't connect with
someone who's hurting me.
Those two competing realitiesare very difficult.
A child's mind just can'tprocess that, and so the sense
of separation is incrediblyhelpful in those moments.
Michaela (08:19):
Right, I'm the good, normal child, and then that's
the.
Not me is the one that getspunished.
Or even I wonder too, like um,if we are a kid who say gets in
trouble a lot, maybe we have adissociated self, could develop
(08:39):
a dissociated self of likethat's the bad version of me,
right, like I don't do, I didn'tdo that stuff.
That was that, wasn't, that wassomebody else.
Laura (08:50):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, because that's a way
to cope with the fact that wehave done something that is
disappointing to our caregivers,or we have done something and
it's created a consequence of,you know, a negative reaction
with our caregivers.
We are constantly.
A child's job is to control thebehavior of the parents.
(09:15):
That's really what they'retrying to do at all times is
manage their parents' distressand manage their parents'
behavior so that they cancontinue to get their needs met.
And in the mind of a child, Ican't necessarily hold two
truths at once.
I can't hold the fact that Idid this thing and my family is
(09:37):
upset with me and I'm a good kidand I still deserve love and
connection and care.
It might be too big for me toprocess that information, and so
I sort of separate it into aversion of myself that likes to
get into trouble or mischief.
(09:57):
And in these situations I mightnot even be talking about abuse
.
I'm just talking about like, oh, I have this, you know.
I think I hear a lot of peoplesaying, oh, my alter ego did
that.
You know what I mean.
Michaela (10:09):
Like as a joke.
Laura (10:11):
But the reality is we may have this sort of sense of
ourself of like a version of usthat is different than us, that
a version of us that is somebodythat we can't really be, that
we have to avoid certain things,but this version of us, when we
, when it comes out, like itgets to have all the fun and
(10:32):
like, take all the risks and doall the things and and that's
not pathology, that's just humandevelopment and personality,
right, right, well, and you hearpeople talk all the time like
they say oh, part of me wants toget cake for dessert, but part
of me knows that I shouldn't dothat right?
So yes, that's absolutely right,and so not all parts of oneself
(10:57):
are dissociated parts, butevery single person has parts of
ourself that we can call egostates or dissociated parts, and
that not interchangeably.
Ego state is not the same thingas a dissociated part.
Essentially, they're just partsof myself that I disagree with.
(11:30):
Like I have conflict rightInternally and that internal
conflict just represents, likedifferent ego states, different
states of my mind, differentstates of my being.
I contain multitudes, right?
I?
Michaela (11:42):
mean everyone does.
There's times where you gothrough that you're eating super
healthy and you can stay on thebandwagon and you feel really,
you know, convicted, and you'reworking out.
And then there's another partof you that takes over and
doesn't want to do all thosethings and just wants to go have
fun and enjoy life, and so,yeah, there's lots of parts of
(12:05):
self.
Laura (12:06):
That's right.
And we've all heard of ourinner child, right.
When we think of an inner childpart, sometimes we can be
thinking of a part that isreally rooted in deeply rooted
in trauma and deep pain and thatcould be a dissociated part
that feels really separate fromus, like that's not me, that was
(12:27):
someone else, like it feelslike a different person went
through that.
It feels like a different lifethat I haven't lived right.
We hear that sometimes when wehear recounting of trauma.
When we hear recounting oftrauma, sometimes we hear that I
was outside of myself watchingit happen and I wasn't there, I
went away.
(12:48):
Those are dissociated processesthat are really helpful because
we are escaping and taking arest from the difficulty and the
pain of that experience.
And we need that.
We need our mind needs to dothat, and so it's inherently
adaptive and we need that.
We need our mind needs to dothat, and so it's inherently
adaptive.
When the issues of dissociationcome up, when it feels
(13:15):
problematic, it's when we'relosing control and it's maybe
interfering with our lives in areally negative way, but having
those experiences isn'tinherently pathological.
Michaela (13:23):
Yeah, that makes sense .
So what other symptoms mightsomeone experience if they're
dissociating?
We talked a little bit aboutyou know, kind of like that
dreamlike state or like gettinglike you know kind of
daydreaming what else couldsomeone have?
Laura (13:41):
A friend of mine mentioned recently losing time.
A friend of mine mentionedrecently losing time.
Um, you know, she mentionedshe's late all the time and she
is like it all of a sudden isyou know, time to go and I was
starting this project and youknow I thought I had all this
time and now I'm late and youknow, it's really just a sense
of not being present, a sense ofum.
(14:02):
Sometimes people describefeeling like the world is a
simulation, where, like nothing,I'm not really real, I'm not
really anything, I'm sort ofpart of the simulation and
nothing matters and nothingmeans anything.
Some people describerecognizing or like not
(14:23):
recognizing themselves in themirror.
Yeah, I don't know if that'sever happened to you.
If you look at a picture from,this has happened to me.
If I look at a picture from acertain time in my life, a
picture of myself, I don'trecognize myself in that photo.
It seems like a totallydifferent person, like that's
not me.
And that's from a time in mylife that was particularly
(14:44):
challenging, particularlychallenging and where I
experienced some reallydifficult things.
So when we are thinking aboutjust those normal dissociative
processes, we're thinking aboutthe time you're driving in the
car and then you don't evenrealize the trip.
Or, you know, you are soengrossed in like a show or a
(15:11):
game that you like are imaginingyourself as part of the game,
like you feel like you're in it,or you feel like you're a
character in the show, or youfeel like you are.
You know, you just it's almostlike an overactive imagination,
right.
You get so engrossed in it thatyou become part of it or it
becomes part of you.
That can happen, I think, oflike acting as dissociative,
(15:36):
especially method acting inparticular, and I don't know you
would have to channel it.
Well, that's right, you have tochannel these parts of oneself
that otherwise are completelydisconnected from the real you,
and so that's not.
(15:56):
This is not clinical in any way, but like that's just my
opinion.
I've sort of always noticedlike acting feels inherently
dissociative to me.
Michaela (16:01):
So also that makes me think of, like you know, having
different, like parts of selflike you think back of.
We used to call dissociativeidentity disorder, multiple
personality disorder.
So like how do the, how do thedifferent voices in your head,
how do you differentiate thatfrom like a schizophrenia?
Laura (16:23):
I think a lot of the time mental health professionals
misdiagnose dissociativedisorders, and not necessarily
dissociative identity disorderexclusively.
There's also a disorder calledit's otherwise specified
dissociative disorder.
So it used to be DDNOS, it'sescaping me.
(16:46):
What is it?
Osdd otherwise specifieddissociative disorder.
So OSDD is a level ofdissociation that isn't exactly
dissociative identity disorderbut that includes a high level
of dissociation in your dailylife where you might be losing
(17:06):
time.
You might be operating within apersona that changes very
frequently.
So I could have one persona thatgoes to work and then another
persona that is at home with mykids, and those can be very,
very different different aspectsof myself, different parts of
(17:27):
my personality, and I'm usingthose to get through the day and
just do my daily livingactivities that I have to do all
the time and you know I mightbe able to remember what I did
in each moment.
And that's a different level ofseparateness than a dissociative
(17:48):
identity disorder whereoftentimes there is not a lot of
consciousness between parts ofself, so I might not remember at
all what I did when I wasoperating out of one part of
myself versus another.
But that is less common than,say, like an OSDD, where I have
(18:10):
more of a cohesive memory ofwhat's going on, but I still
might lose time, I still mightnot have full control and I
still might operate on withdistinct components of my
personality that could even beso different from one from one
another that I could have peoplemight not even recognize me and
(18:30):
did the person haveconversations with each other.
Michaela (18:34):
They're aware of each other.
Laura (18:37):
Ask that again.
I didn't hear the beginning.
Michaela (18:39):
Different parts of self have conversations with
each other or, you know, canthey hear or know about each
other?
Laura (18:46):
Yeah.
So and to you kind of askedabout schizophrenia before
versus dissociation, and themain difference, I think,
between psychosis anddissociation is that it's
internal versus, or it'sexternal versus internal
respectively.
So psychosis comes fromexternal cues that are being
(19:09):
misread like a different realityand it's really a muddy line
Like it's.
There's not really a superclear distinction, but I think
that gets misdiagnosed reallyoften is.
I see this all the time withsomebody who maybe has
depression and then it'll saywith psychotic features.
But then I'll work with theclient and recognize that it's
(19:29):
not psychotic features.
This is dissociative processes.
Dissociative processes are moreinternal, they come from within
.
They can be known to the selfas dissociative and or as parts
of the self.
So I might not know the worddissociative, but I know it's a
(19:51):
part of me, it's an aspect of meor it's inside of me, it lives
inside of me, even if it's aseparate person.
I could say I have separatepeople inside of me, but that's
not psychotic, that's notpsychosis, that's dissociation
versus.
There's these outside forcesthat I'm not aware of, that I
don't know what they're thinkingor doing or feeling, or you
(20:12):
know they're not using, they'retelling me to do something.
They are, they're coming fromthe outside versus coming from
within is one way to, at a highlevel, delineate between
dissociative processes andpsychosis.
But that's a very simplifiedway to put it, I think.
Michaela (20:30):
For sure.
Well, and I think that you knowthe timing potentially of the
symptoms is another feature ofthat too.
Like you know, schizophrenia ispretty.
You know there's a.
You know you're not going tonormally start having those
things in your fs.
How about, like in DID?
(20:53):
Are you going to start?
Could you have some of thosesymptoms come on, or start
recognizing them more later onin?
Laura (21:00):
life.
Yeah, it's not linear really.
So when you are developingdissociative identity disorder,
many most believe that thatdevelops in childhood and cannot
be developed later it's.
You can maybe notice it later,where you could live a long time
and not realize that that'shappening for you.
(21:21):
But dissociative features andfunctions are developed during
your childhood because that'swhen your brain is developing
and when it's figuring out howto operate.
And so if your brain isoperating in a dissociated way
and doesn't get that integrationin childhood, then that's when
you're going to have that.
You can't go all the waythrough till you're, you know,
(21:48):
30 years old and never have hada dissociative experience, and
then suddenly now all youdissociate all the time.
That's not a thing that happens.
Michaela (22:00):
With this, things that are developed in childhood.
So we talked a little bit aboutlike the cognitive kinds of
things.
What about somatic experiences?
Can you have somatic typedissociations?
Laura (22:10):
kinds of things.
What about somatic experiences?
Can you have somatic typedissociations?
Yeah, totally so.
Somatic stuff, body stuff,right, feelings, different you
could have pain or different,different pains or feelings that
you're experiencing could be aresult of dissociative parts.
So pre-verbal, dissociative,pre-verbal trauma can create
(22:31):
dissociation that doesn't havewords, it just has feelings, it
just has body sensations, and sodissociation isn't one thing,
it's the way our brains andbodies experience information
that isn't fully integrated andprocessed.
And so if that body sensationdoesn't have a story, it doesn't
(22:56):
have an integrated piece ofnarrative that allows it to
function in an adaptive way thatwe think of as adults, like
when we think of a narrativestory.
If we had something happen to usthat there is no narrative for,
we might experience that aspain recreating itself.
(23:16):
That doesn't make any sense.
It can be phantom pains.
It can be pains that arehappening with no medical cause.
That's a common thing withdissociative processes is that
there's something physicallywrong, but that doesn't have a
medical explanation.
And so often we'll see peoplewho are constantly going to the
(23:42):
doctor and the doctors aresaying there's nothing wrong
with you.
There's nothing wrong with you,and you're like but I feel this
pain, but this is reallyhappening.
I have this thing going on andthey're like well, there's
nothing wrong with you and thenso it's just this like cycle of
invalidation and and denial ofone's self-experience, which can
just make it worse.
But what I find is that, whenwe can, I talk to the pain and
(24:07):
ask it you know what is it doingthere and what is the purpose
of it and you know that sounds alittle extra woo woo, but just
get weird with me for a minute.
You know when we can talk tothat stuff, sometimes it can
talk back and it can help usknow what it's doing and why
it's there and where it's comingfrom and what it.
What it needs us to know rightnow, and sometimes what it needs
(24:27):
us to know, is that it needs tobe healed on an emotional level
in a more integrated way, andit's not about a medical
presentation as much as it'sabout I have this thing that
happened to me and I don't knowwhat to do, and that can be
coming from a very young part ofoneself that is experiencing
something that is just too bigto know and understand.
(24:48):
You know we think ofdissociation as a couple of
different things, but one thingthat it can be is
non-realization, and so I can'tfully realize this thing that
happened to me, because it wastoo big and it's too much.
And for a child to realize thattheir caregiver is hurting them
is too big and too much becausethey have no way out.
(25:09):
And the best thing to do is tonot realize that it's happening
so that I can get through therest of the day right, because I
still have to go to school andI still have to eat and I still
have to get my other needs met,and so it's easier to just
separate this from myself thanit is to carry that all the time
.
And that's why we see thosethings coming out in different
ways, especially in kids, andwhen we're experiencing unknown
(25:34):
pain as an adult and othersomatic symptoms, it could be
helpful to talk to someone andand maybe do some somatic work.
There's a lot of greattherapists that could do.
There's something calledsomatic experiencing and that's
a really great way to workthrough some of those things and
to really get to the root of itand heal some of the underlying
(25:56):
root causes of those somaticsymptoms.
Michaela (25:59):
I love that and I what came up for me when you were
talking was like, it's not thatthe intention of the providers
that are saying we can't findanything, we can't find anything
isn't to, you know, maketypically make people feel
invalidated.
It's just they, they're that'sthe lack of their medical
(26:20):
knowledge, and they probablydon't know anything about
somatic dissociation.
They're just like, go see apsych person and so then the
person internalized that is that, as I'm like, I'm, oh, I'm
crazy, right, like they starthaving those negative thoughts
about themselves.
But how empowering must that beto finally go see someone and
(26:41):
they're like, oh, I know exactlywhat's going on with you.
Here's what you need to do,right?
Laura (26:46):
Well, yeah, and I love the book the Myth of Normal by
Dr Gabor Mate in where heexplains, as a medical doctor,
that anytime someone would comeinto his office he would ask,
like, have you experienced anytrauma?
And inevitably the answer isyes.
But that's the first time thatthey've been asked that question
(27:09):
.
That's the first time thatthey've been asked by a medical
professional about their historyof trauma.
And so these things getoverlooked.
Right, because we separate themind and body in this arbitrary,
as if they're not connected,way.
That really makes it difficultfor any one professional to get
(27:31):
the big picture, and I thinkwe're doing a better job of that
right now.
Right, and like that's thewhole purpose of you and I's
work together, shayla.
Like because we're trying tobring that back together and
really understand how our mindinfluences our body and our body
influences our mind.
You know there's more than oneway to work through some of this
(27:53):
distress.
Like medicine can help withparts of it, and you know,
therapy work can help with partsof it, and they could both be
doing the same thing or theycould be doing two different
things, and it doesn't mean oneis better than the other, it
just means that everythingmatters.
Michaela (28:11):
Right.
Well, and that makes me thinkof, like you know, the heart
rate variability training thatI'm doing right now in what
they're talking about is likeusing what we know about our
heart to help send signals andcalm that part of our bodies
down so that we can send thosesignals back to the brain and
(28:32):
have that communicate.
Hey, I got this, I'm okay.
Right, like I'm not, I don'thave to be in fight or flight
right now.
You can be in, you know, youcan have coherent state of your
body where there's balance andthat's your body actually
sending signals and helping healthe brain, which I think is so
powerful.
Laura (28:53):
Absolutely.
What wires together firestogether, right?
So when we practice somethingover and over, it gives us the
ability to call that back up oncue.
So a lot of meditative statesor meditative processes or like
visualizations you know, we dida visualization exercise as a
(29:14):
grounding skill recently on thispodcast and those are
dissociative, Like basically,we're saying I'm going to
imagine myself as not here, assomewhere else, and I'm going to
put myself in this, in thisstate of mind that is separated
from the present reality, andthen that's going to give me the
(29:35):
ability to come back into thepresent reality and notice my
surroundings from a freshperspective.
And so, you know, we thinkabout how all of these things
work together and they're allreally helpful.
And the biggest aspect of thebenefit, like the biggest
(29:56):
benefit here is that we can gaincontrol over it.
We can manage it, we can workwith it.
We don't have to be afraid ofit.
We don't have to be afraid ofthese things that are going on
with us.
We can say, oh, what is thisLike?
This is a signal, this isinformation.
How can I learn more about this?
How can I learn?
What is this doing for me?
We don't do things that don'tmake sense right.
(30:17):
So we need to understand, likewhat is this doing for me in
this moment?
What's the benefit of thisright now and how can I learn
what I need to learn and thenmove through it in a way that is
of the present time and place.
I love that.
So when I use my groundingskills I'm getting back to the
(30:41):
present.
But sometimes I need to use acalming skill before a grounding
skill, and that calming skillmight be taking myself out of
this moment and putting myselfon a beach, you know, and on my
favorite vacation, and I takemyself out of the present just
to be able to bring myself backinto the present.
It's like progressive mindrelaxation, right when you tense
(31:05):
up your muscles.
The progressive musclerelaxation, where you tense up
your muscles and then yourelease them to get present by
kind of going somewhere else andthen returning to the present,
is a really good way to getgrounded and to get stable back
in the moment and lower yourheart rate.
Michaela (31:25):
Yeah, that's huge.
What else other than groundingskills is important for people
to do to work through some ofthese things, to work through
dissociation?
Laura (32:02):
I think if we're dissociating so much that it's
disrupting our lives, wherewe're not able to fully engage
in our relationships and we'renot able to fully engage with
ourself and our relationship'thave to villainize it.
We can work with our anxietyand our depression and our you
know intrusive thoughts and ourdifficult concentration and our
you know distractibility.
We can work with all of thosethings and bring them together
as one whole person and we don'thave to be mad at those things.
(32:25):
I think that's really importantis compassion for yourself and
not villainizing these processesthat were designed to keep you
safe and alive and and help you.
So you mentioned fight orflight.
Before that survival stance,the survival mechanisms of fight
, flight, freeze, fawn, submitthose are all early primitive
(32:52):
survival responses thatinherently exist in all humans.
So that we don't die, we needthose things and that's where
dissociative processes are bornas well.
So when we're experiencingsomething that is so
overwhelming, our body and ourbrain is interpreting it as life
threat, and that doesn't haveto make sense in context to an
adult either.
(33:12):
Right, that's important tothink about.
Think about the differentperspective of a child versus an
adult in any situation could belife-threatening.
Getting lost at the mall islife-threatening.
You know, waking up and notknowing where your parents are,
that's life-threatening, likethinking about not having enough
food.
Or, you know, not knowing whereyour next meal is coming from
(33:35):
or whether or not your mom ordad is going to come home in a
good mood or in a really scarymood.
That terror that you'reexperiencing as a child is
life-threatening.
And so that's where dissociativeprocesses are born.
They're born out of thesurvival mechanisms that we all
carry, and those processes areincredibly helpful and they help
us survive childhood, whenchildhood is really difficult
(33:57):
and none of us get out of thisunscathed.
Our childhood is not for um,not for lack of trying, but is
hard right.
Being a kid is not always safeand stable, and that doesn't
always mean that our parents arebad parents.
Sometimes we're just strugglingand, um, our parents are
(34:18):
struggling, and that can makechildhood unsafe and unstable,
you know for me in that too islike not judging yourself for
having had those experiences asa child, right?
Michaela (34:33):
So so often I hear like I didn't have anything bad
happen to me or that wasn't thatbig of a deal.
I don't know why I'm respondinglike, why I can't just handle
things Right, and so it's so.
I think that we forget as an inour adult brains we're like
well, that's not that big of adeal but but we forget what the
reality was for us as a childand how that, how that was
(34:54):
experienced back then, before wehad our fully functioning,
formed brains.
Laura (35:01):
That's such a good point Not judging ourselves for the
experiences that we had as achild.
I love that, because the thingsthat happen to you don't say
anything about you.
You know, there's a differencebetween things that I went
through and things that I am,and sometimes we get those
things mixed up.
You know, I hear from clientsall the time about the messages
(35:24):
that we got in our childhood.
I hear that, whether it's goodor bad, those messages matter.
You know, we get these messagesfrom our parents of whether or
not we're capable of somethingor whether or not we deserve
something, and those things turninto our core beliefs.
Or whether or not we deservesomething, and those things turn
into our core beliefs.
And we need to be able to lookback and recognize that as a
(35:47):
child, we had to believe thosethings because we didn't have
any other context and there wasno other source of information
that was going to give us thistruth.
And we have to align with ourcaregivers in order to survive,
and so that's not bad.
It's just what we have to do,and sometimes what we have to do
(36:12):
comes with shame, and shame'sjob is to suppress.
James' job is to suppress, tosuppress yourself, to be able to
align with our caregiver, andwhen we have to do that, it
(36:32):
creates a wound, a scar thatthen is going to recur over and
over until it's healed.
That's deep.
I know this experience thatwe're having, that is shaping us
, and we have no say in what'sgoing to happen, in what's going
(36:57):
on, in who our parents are in,who our support system is in,
where we go to school and wherewe live.
We don't have any say in that.
And yet everything that'shappening is teaching us
something about ourselves.
And then, all of a sudden,you're supposed to know that
none of that is really true andthat you can be anybody you want
(37:19):
at the day that you turn 18.
How arbitrary that is Right.
And so this experience that youhad is going to stick around.
It's not just going to go away.
But we don't have, we're notresponsible for it.
We're not responsible for ourchildhood, we're responsible and
(37:39):
accountable for healing as anadult.
That's the difference.
We're not responsible for ourchildhood, we're responsible and
accountable for healing as anadult.
That's the difference.
We're not responsible for ourchildhood, we're responsible for
our adult healing.
Michaela (37:49):
And we can't make our parents have gone and done that
work.
Laura (37:55):
No, we can't make them different, and we can't control
other people's behavior with ourbehavior, even though, as a kid
, that's essentially our primarygoal in life is to control our
parents' behavior.
And so we're learning how totry to change people's behavior
(38:15):
with our behavior, because oursurvival depends on it.
But then, as an adult, thatstrategy is going to cause us a
great deal of harm because wecan't change other people, and
we don't need to, because we candepend on ourselves.
Michaela (38:30):
Right, but I think again, going back to not blaming
ourselves for creating thestrategy to begin with, because
it was born out of trying tofind safety.
It's just that we don't have tochoose to do it anymore because
it's maladaptive, it's nothelpful anymore, it's not going
to serve us anymore.
Laura (38:50):
Yeah, it's not a problem until it's a problem.
So once it's no longer servingus, then we need to do the work
to help our brains get that newinformation, fill in those
missing pieces and get the extrasupport that we need to do that
integration that we couldn't doback then because it wouldn't
have made sense.
(39:11):
But it makes sense now becausewe're safe now or we're safe
enough.
I like to say safe enough,right, because nobody can
guarantee that nothing bad isgoing to happen.
But what we can do is we canlive as presently as possible in
order to recognize that we havethe survival skills and we have
what we need in order to getthrough really difficult things
(39:33):
and it's okay if something badhappens in the future.
We have the responsibility ofbeing okay enough right now.
Michaela (39:44):
Yeah, and we can handle it, because we can handle
more than what we think we can.
Laura (39:49):
We can handle a lot more than we think we can.
And so, different ways ofgetting back to the present,
getting back to knowing thatwe're safe enough, there's lots
of things that one can do.
One thing is just a groundingskill that is based in the
present moment, which is likelooking around for things that
(40:12):
you recognize, like looking forfind five things that are blue
and name them.
Count four things that arecircles and name them.
So what you're doing is you'rebringing yourself into the room
and you're doing that externally, not necessarily internally.
So those are grounding skillsthat don't require the brain to
(40:35):
come up with anythingimaginative.
Right, Like we're.
Just we're using our senses ofsight.
Perhaps we do what are threethings that we hear right now.
So we're using our senses.
When we use our senses, ithelps us reorient to where we
are right now and that helps usget out of our heads and into
(40:55):
the space that we're in.
Michaela (40:56):
Yeah, Sometimes I hear people say that like they don't
feel safe when they're havingthat experience of not feeling
like things are real, and sowould a sensory grounding thing
be like holding an ice cube orsomething like that splashing
cold water in your face be agood option, especially if
(41:19):
you're kind of feeling thatout-of-body experience.
Laura (41:24):
Definitely, that derealization, that out-of-body
experience, is something we needto bring ourselves back into
our body right.
So bringing yourself to thepresent with something that you
can feel and touch, that'stangible, that can be really
helpful.
Some people use what we callanchors, where, in therapy or in
a positive space or state, youhave a talisman.
(41:48):
Maybe it's a coin, maybe it's astone, a crystal, anything that
you can hold on to, thatanchors you into that present
moment.
What we want to do is we wantto connect it to the positive
experience that you're having,the positive sense of safe
enough, connect it with thatanchor and then every time you
(42:09):
hold that talisman you canrecognize oh right, there's
safety there, I have that safety, right.
So you're wiring somethingtogether that you later want to
fire together and call up on ondemand I love that so that's a
really good one too well, andthen I think about like from
like a medication standpoint.
Michaela (42:30):
Right, there's not really any medication that will
treat um, dissociation, um, butyou know, if you're having
severe enough anxiety, you knowlooking at treating the anxiety
and the depression that go alongwith it can help reduce the
amount of time that you feellike you need to be, that you
(42:52):
feel like you can't handlethings right when you're going
to go check out Um and and, andoftentimes we see like a lot of
depersonalization andderealization within like PTSD,
and so if there is like a PTSDdiagnosis, there are things that
we can do to manage and treatthat specifically.
Um so there's options out there.
(43:13):
There's different supplementsand things that I use to kind of
help with reducing anxiety aswell.
Um, I think like essential oilsare really good too, like
lavender, for example.
That's the one I can think ofoff the top of my head that I
use the most.
I like mint, mint, okay, orlemon.
Laura (43:32):
Yeah, lemon balm.
There you go, yeah.
So those are really good onesthat we can.
Because we're using our sensesAgain, our senses can bring us
back to the present.
Because we're using our sensesagain, our senses can bring us
back to the present because oursenses are designed to evaluate
our environment for safety.
Yes, so that's why we have them.
We use them for that all thetime.
We use our sense of touch tosee if something's hot or sharp
(43:55):
or safe to touch or safe to movethrough.
We use our sense of smell todetermine if something is, you
know, rotten or if it's healthy,right.
So our senses are a reallyimportant aspect of our sense of
safety and so when we can useour senses to find safety, that
can help us a great deal.
(44:17):
Another thing is timeorientation, so saying, because
dissociationation, derealization, depersonalization, it's taking
you out of the present spaceand time, right, and it's
operating.
Our brain is operating from aplace that doesn't have a
connection to time or space,because it doesn't need that.
When we're surviving, we don'tneed a connection to time and
space.
That's not helpful.
It wouldn't be helpful.
(44:38):
If I'm, you know, in pain orbeing hurt, it doesn't help me
to know how long it's been.
I need to disconnect from thatsense of time so that it feels
like it went by in a flash,right?
So those survival mechanismsdon't have access to time.
So when we can reorient ourselfto time by like counting
backwards from 10 or watchingthe clock for a minute, or when
(45:02):
we can say the date, the date,the month, day and year, when we
can say exactly where we are,our address, the location that
we're standing, like right nowI'm in my office, or you know,
and I'm in Chandler, you know,saying where you are.
Another thing is saying how oldyou are and reminding yourself
(45:24):
that at least part of you canrecognize right now that you're
an adult and that an adult canhandle things differently than a
child can.
And so like inviting that adultpart of yourself to be the
leader in charge and if you'renot an adult, then inviting the
oldest aspect of yourself, right, like, however old you actually
are, the oldest possibleversion of yourself, who has the
(45:46):
most experience and is the mostcapable, is going to run the
show right now.
That's what we want to askourselves, because we can use
that information to reorient tothe present time.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Michaela (46:02):
Those are some really good suggestions.
Laura (46:05):
Those are my favorites.
Those are the ones I use whenI'm feeling out of it, because I
have a dissociative mind.
I have a mind that definitelycan just check all the way out
and completely not be here, andso I use these crowning skills.
I used to say I use them 37,000times a day.
(46:26):
I remind myself like where am I, who am I, how old am I?
Those are the things that workbest for me.
Michaela (46:33):
Yeah, I just really like breathing.
Like that just really helps meto like check back in, kind of
take myself back down, becausewe have so much stress that
we're going through.
You know, we have all thesethings that we're trying to take
care of and we're alwaysthinking about the future all
the time, and so I think thatthat creates a level of stress.
(46:55):
And so those, just thosebreathing skills are just, you
know, box breathing, squarebreathing, or just like just
breathing a little bit slowerand a little bit deeper, like
five slow breaths, and just kindof checking back in, kind of
like reducing that stress backdown.
You know, when you breathe in,your heart rate accelerates and
(47:15):
you're activating sympatheticnervous system, and when you
exhale you're actuallyactivating some of that
parasympathetic nervous system.
And so we can, we, we just kindof help with activating and and
deactivating that and kind ofjust helping get into that
coherent state and just feels somuch better.
Laura (47:35):
And sometimes breathing because, like you said, can
activate that heart rate.
Sometimes that can feel liketoo much.
So you want to do something toslow down.
Like blowing bubbles is reallygood because you're exhaling
right.
So you're activating thatsympathetic nervous system I'm
sorry, parasympathetic nervoussystem that is going to calm you
(47:55):
down.
So I always used to havebubbles in my office and I would
have people blow bubbles Likeif we were feeling like things
are too much, because thenyou're just focusing on that
exhale, yep.
Michaela (48:08):
That's so true.
I love that Bubbles.
Laura (48:11):
Bubbles.
Michaela (48:13):
The next time that my kids are fighting, I'm going to
have them blow bubbles.
Laura (48:18):
I highly recommend it, and it's just soap, so it washes
out, it's fine, it's not messyno.
So I think we've covered quitea lot of this.
Discussion on dissociation hasbeen quite thorough.
What do you think?
Michaela (48:36):
I think it was really good.
I mean, I always love hearingyour perspective.
Laura (48:40):
I mean, I really feel like you're an expert on this
topic and it's alwaysinteresting and I learn
something new every time we chatabout it, dissociative as I
(49:02):
think about the way that ourbrains work and the way that our
brains and our bodies worktogether, is inherently helpful.
Everything is helpful, and evenwhen it feels like it's not so,
I just want to help people knowthat this stuff can be okay and
you're not alone, and becauseif you have some of this stuff
(49:22):
going on with you, that doesn'tmean there's nothing wrong with
you.
It's just stuff that needs tobe worked out and you help the
people that you never need towork with.
That's what it does to usthey're a mess.
Well, thank you so much.
It was great.
Yeah, thank you, and thank youfor listening to.
(49:43):
Why am I like this?
If you like our show and youhate us, or hate us too on your
favorite podcast platform,follow the show and share it
with friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, laura wood and
machina beaver.
Our theme song is making andunique by thick as thieves, and
a special thanks to beneficiarycounseling and coaching and
active healing psychiatricservices for sponsoring our show
(50:05):
.
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:10):
Hi and I'm M Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Laura (00:15):
So, M, why are we doing this?
Michaela (00:17):
podcast.
I'm so glad you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better how the
things you learned aboutyourself and the world and
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
things about ourselves you mightwonder about, like why am I so
jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everything sopersonally?
(00:38):
Why are my thoughts so negative?
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all?
Laura (00:43):
the time negative.
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all the time?
Yes, and today we are talkingabout dissociation and we are
going to try to answer thefollowing questions what is
dissociation and what is itspurpose?
When is it a problem?
What can we do to get back intothe present?
So let's get into it.
What dissociation, what is thisand why are we doing it?
Michaela (01:08):
okay.
So I would say, likedissociation is disconnecting
from ourselves, from our likeemotions, our thoughts, feelings
, kind of being disconnectedfrom the present.
Laura (01:24):
Yeah, I think of when we are overloaded or overwhelmed
and we kind of just zone out alittle.
But I hear dissociation saidall the time.
I hear especially now latelyI've been hearing like oh, I'm
dissociating, or people saydisassociating, which drives me
(01:45):
crazy because that's not what itis.
So what do you think people aretalking?
What do you think they meanwhen they say that?
Michaela (01:55):
Well, I think that they're hearing a lot of things,
probably like on TikTok, and Ithink that people are the word
about things is getting out more, and so people are registering
that this is the thing thatthey're doing.
Right, because we all do it.
We all get into that daydreamy,hypnotic state.
(02:16):
Maybe we drove our car fromhome to work and we're like man,
that was fast, how did I gethere?
That's kind of being in thathypnotic, dissociated state, and
so I think that people arehearing these things and
recognizing that it's somethingthat they're doing, that they
they feel when they they get alittle bit you know, they got
(02:37):
into a fight with their parentsor their friends and they just
kind of want to check out fromthose feelings for a little bit.
I think that even being on likeTikTok itself is dissociated.
Yeah, you're probably rightabout that.
You're using that as a skill toget out of what you're feeling.
Laura (02:59):
Yeah, I think about it like zoned out.
I think about it like zoned outor when you're like if you're
watching TV and somebody'stalking to you and you just
can't hear them and you're justso tuned into the television or
to whatever you're doing orwatching that you have no idea
what's going on around you.
You're just sort of in your ownworld.
(03:21):
I guess I could say is the waythat I hear it described a lot
In your own world.
I guess I could say is the waythat I hear it described a lot.
But you know, like you said, weall do this.
Why do we do this?
We dissociate all the time.
We have dissociative processeshappening all the time that are
(03:42):
totally normal and that ourbrains are just doing this.
Because if we were to beregistering consciously every
single thing that's going onaround us at all times, we would
totally explode.
It would be way too much.
There's so much stimulation,there's so many thoughts and
there's so many pieces ofinformation floating around
(04:03):
around us all the time that ourbrains just can't possibly be on
and alert at all times.
And so we sort of check out andour brain gives us a break.
It's like taking a rest fromthe world and from all of the
things that are going on in ourminds and bodies and in our
(04:23):
environment that are going on inour minds and bodies and in our
environment, right?
Michaela (04:32):
And so then, like in someone who maybe doesn't have
more of that, like, isn't justthat normal coping mechanism,
right?
Someone who may have had likeearly childhood trauma, how does
that change in that time of,you know, affecting those kids?
Laura (04:48):
Well, the purpose is still the same.
So kids are always kids arereally dissociative because
their brains are inherentlydissociated.
They're not connected yetthey're not integrated.
Integration is the process oflearning and growing up and
learning.
I should say that the other wayLearning is integrating right.
(05:09):
So when we are growing up we'relearning information and we're
integrating information.
But when we're babies ouraction systems are all pretty
separate.
We have an action system forsleep, we have an action system
for food, we have an actionsystem for connection and
attachment, and so we're usingthose action systems pretty
disparately.
(05:29):
They're not interconnectednecessarily within ourselves
just yet.
We don't have a sense of a wholeself when we're born.
We just have a sense of, like,getting needs met right, and
then we start developing apersonality and that's when our
brain starts to integrate andinterconnect all of these
different aspects of ourselfinto one whole self.
(05:50):
But that doesn't really fullyoccur until we're, you know,
adolescents and even earlyadults.
We're still learning andintegrating all the time and
with neuroplasticity our brainsare constantly capable of doing
more of that.
Like, personalities can change.
They change over time.
(06:11):
There's, I think, the myth ofthe personality test that one
person can take and as if that'sgoing to be fixed for your
entire life is just simply nottrue.
We change and grow and learn.
There are aspects of ourpersonalities that are sort of
(06:31):
inborn, but they're changeabletoo.
At the same time, with anylearning we do, we have the
opportunity to make differentdecisions, have the opportunity
to make different decisions solike, for example, a child who
is not experiencing trauma, ismaybe daydreaming and has a
really vivid imagination and hasan imaginary friend for
(06:55):
connection.
That's a dissociative process.
Right, we're just dissociative.
As kids.
We sort of find different waysof our mind.
Our mind is just working withus in different ways, and so
having an imaginary friend is away to combat loneliness or to
find entertainment in boringthings, a way to avoid negative
(07:19):
feelings of aloneness or ofisolation or anything like that.
We have an imaginary friend.
Most of us can remember havingsomething like that as a child,
and then we can simply grow outof it because it's not
pathological, it's just brains.
And then somebody who does havea lot of trauma might have an
(07:40):
imaginary friend that is savingthem from that trauma or even
taking on the trauma themselves.
So perhaps the other isactually the one experiencing
the trauma and it's not me.
And that's helpful because itsaves me from having to fully
know and embody that experience,because I still need to be
(08:02):
connected with my attachmentfigures and I can't connect with
someone who's hurting me.
Those two competing realitiesare very difficult.
A child's mind just can'tprocess that, and so the sense
of separation is incrediblyhelpful in those moments.
Michaela (08:19):
Right, I'm the good, normal child, and then that's
the.
Not me is the one that getspunished.
Or even I wonder too, like um,if we are a kid who say gets in
trouble a lot, maybe we have adissociated self, could develop
(08:39):
a dissociated self of likethat's the bad version of me,
right, like I don't do, I didn'tdo that stuff.
That was that, wasn't, that wassomebody else.
Laura (08:50):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, because that's a way
to cope with the fact that wehave done something that is
disappointing to our caregivers,or we have done something and
it's created a consequence of,you know, a negative reaction
with our caregivers.
We are constantly.
A child's job is to control thebehavior of the parents.
(09:15):
That's really what they'retrying to do at all times is
manage their parents' distressand manage their parents'
behavior so that they cancontinue to get their needs met.
And in the mind of a child, Ican't necessarily hold two
truths at once.
I can't hold the fact that Idid this thing and my family is
(09:37):
upset with me and I'm a good kidand I still deserve love and
connection and care.
It might be too big for me toprocess that information, and so
I sort of separate it into aversion of myself that likes to
get into trouble or mischief.
(09:57):
And in these situations I mightnot even be talking about abuse
.
I'm just talking about like, oh, I have this, you know.
I think I hear a lot of peoplesaying, oh, my alter ego did
that.
You know what I mean.
Michaela (10:09):
Like as a joke.
Laura (10:11):
But the reality is we may have this sort of sense of
ourself of like a version of usthat is different than us, that
a version of us that is somebodythat we can't really be, that
we have to avoid certain things,but this version of us, when we
, when it comes out, like itgets to have all the fun and
(10:32):
like, take all the risks and doall the things and and that's
not pathology, that's just humandevelopment and personality,
right, right, well, and you hearpeople talk all the time like
they say oh, part of me wants toget cake for dessert, but part
of me knows that I shouldn't dothat right?
So yes, that's absolutely right,and so not all parts of oneself
(10:57):
are dissociated parts, butevery single person has parts of
ourself that we can call egostates or dissociated parts, and
that not interchangeably.
Ego state is not the same thingas a dissociated part.
Essentially, they're just partsof myself that I disagree with.
(11:30):
Like I have conflict rightInternally and that internal
conflict just represents, likedifferent ego states, different
states of my mind, differentstates of my being.
I contain multitudes, right?
I?
Michaela (11:42):
mean everyone does.
There's times where you gothrough that you're eating super
healthy and you can stay on thebandwagon and you feel really,
you know, convicted, and you'reworking out.
And then there's another partof you that takes over and
doesn't want to do all thosethings and just wants to go have
fun and enjoy life, and so,yeah, there's lots of parts of
(12:05):
self.
Laura (12:06):
That's right.
And we've all heard of ourinner child, right.
When we think of an inner childpart, sometimes we can be
thinking of a part that isreally rooted in deeply rooted
in trauma and deep pain and thatcould be a dissociated part
that feels really separate fromus, like that's not me, that was
(12:27):
someone else, like it feelslike a different person went
through that.
It feels like a different lifethat I haven't lived right.
We hear that sometimes when wehear recounting of trauma.
When we hear recounting oftrauma, sometimes we hear that I
was outside of myself watchingit happen and I wasn't there, I
went away.
(12:48):
Those are dissociated processesthat are really helpful because
we are escaping and taking arest from the difficulty and the
pain of that experience.
And we need that.
We need our mind needs to dothat, and so it's inherently
adaptive and we need that.
We need our mind needs to dothat, and so it's inherently
adaptive.
When the issues of dissociationcome up, when it feels
(13:15):
problematic, it's when we'relosing control and it's maybe
interfering with our lives in areally negative way, but having
those experiences isn'tinherently pathological.
Michaela (13:23):
Yeah, that makes sense .
So what other symptoms mightsomeone experience if they're
dissociating?
We talked a little bit aboutyou know, kind of like that
dreamlike state or like gettinglike you know kind of
daydreaming what else couldsomeone have?
Laura (13:41):
A friend of mine mentioned recently losing time.
A friend of mine mentionedrecently losing time.
Um, you know, she mentionedshe's late all the time and she
is like it all of a sudden isyou know, time to go and I was
starting this project and youknow I thought I had all this
time and now I'm late and youknow, it's really just a sense
of not being present, a sense ofum.
(14:02):
Sometimes people describefeeling like the world is a
simulation, where, like nothing,I'm not really real, I'm not
really anything, I'm sort ofpart of the simulation and
nothing matters and nothingmeans anything.
Some people describerecognizing or like not
(14:23):
recognizing themselves in themirror.
Yeah, I don't know if that'sever happened to you.
If you look at a picture from,this has happened to me.
If I look at a picture from acertain time in my life, a
picture of myself, I don'trecognize myself in that photo.
It seems like a totallydifferent person, like that's
not me.
And that's from a time in mylife that was particularly
(14:44):
challenging, particularlychallenging and where I
experienced some reallydifficult things.
So when we are thinking aboutjust those normal dissociative
processes, we're thinking aboutthe time you're driving in the
car and then you don't evenrealize the trip.
Or, you know, you are soengrossed in like a show or a
(15:11):
game that you like are imaginingyourself as part of the game,
like you feel like you're in it,or you feel like you're a
character in the show, or youfeel like you are.
You know, you just it's almostlike an overactive imagination,
right.
You get so engrossed in it thatyou become part of it or it
becomes part of you.
That can happen, I think, oflike acting as dissociative,
(15:36):
especially method acting inparticular, and I don't know you
would have to channel it.
Well, that's right, you have tochannel these parts of oneself
that otherwise are completelydisconnected from the real you,
and so that's not.
(15:56):
This is not clinical in any way, but like that's just my
opinion.
I've sort of always noticedlike acting feels inherently
dissociative to me.
Michaela (16:01):
So also that makes me think of, like you know, having
different, like parts of selflike you think back of.
We used to call dissociativeidentity disorder, multiple
personality disorder.
So like how do the, how do thedifferent voices in your head,
how do you differentiate thatfrom like a schizophrenia?
Laura (16:23):
I think a lot of the time mental health professionals
misdiagnose dissociativedisorders, and not necessarily
dissociative identity disorderexclusively.
There's also a disorder calledit's otherwise specified
dissociative disorder.
So it used to be DDNOS, it'sescaping me.
(16:46):
What is it?
Osdd otherwise specifieddissociative disorder.
So OSDD is a level ofdissociation that isn't exactly
dissociative identity disorderbut that includes a high level
of dissociation in your dailylife where you might be losing
(17:06):
time.
You might be operating within apersona that changes very
frequently.
So I could have one persona thatgoes to work and then another
persona that is at home with mykids, and those can be very,
very different different aspectsof myself, different parts of
(17:27):
my personality, and I'm usingthose to get through the day and
just do my daily livingactivities that I have to do all
the time and you know I mightbe able to remember what I did
in each moment.
And that's a different level ofseparateness than a dissociative
(17:48):
identity disorder whereoftentimes there is not a lot of
consciousness between parts ofself, so I might not remember at
all what I did when I wasoperating out of one part of
myself versus another.
But that is less common than,say, like an OSDD, where I have
(18:10):
more of a cohesive memory ofwhat's going on, but I still
might lose time, I still mightnot have full control and I
still might operate on withdistinct components of my
personality that could even beso different from one from one
another that I could have peoplemight not even recognize me and
(18:30):
did the person haveconversations with each other.
Michaela (18:34):
They're aware of each other.
Laura (18:37):
Ask that again.
I didn't hear the beginning.
Michaela (18:39):
Different parts of self have conversations with
each other or, you know, canthey hear or know about each
other?
Laura (18:46):
Yeah.
So and to you kind of askedabout schizophrenia before
versus dissociation, and themain difference, I think,
between psychosis anddissociation is that it's
internal versus, or it'sexternal versus internal
respectively.
So psychosis comes fromexternal cues that are being
(19:09):
misread like a different realityand it's really a muddy line
Like it's.
There's not really a superclear distinction, but I think
that gets misdiagnosed reallyoften is.
I see this all the time withsomebody who maybe has
depression and then it'll saywith psychotic features.
But then I'll work with theclient and recognize that it's
(19:29):
not psychotic features.
This is dissociative processes.
Dissociative processes are moreinternal, they come from within
.
They can be known to the selfas dissociative and or as parts
of the self.
So I might not know the worddissociative, but I know it's a
(19:51):
part of me, it's an aspect of meor it's inside of me, it lives
inside of me, even if it's aseparate person.
I could say I have separatepeople inside of me, but that's
not psychotic, that's notpsychosis, that's dissociation
versus.
There's these outside forcesthat I'm not aware of, that I
don't know what they're thinkingor doing or feeling, or you
(20:12):
know they're not using, they'retelling me to do something.
They are, they're coming fromthe outside versus coming from
within is one way to, at a highlevel, delineate between
dissociative processes andpsychosis.
But that's a very simplifiedway to put it, I think.
Michaela (20:30):
For sure.
Well, and I think that you knowthe timing potentially of the
symptoms is another feature ofthat too.
Like you know, schizophrenia ispretty.
You know there's a.
You know you're not going tonormally start having those
things in your fs.
How about, like in DID?
(20:53):
Are you going to start?
Could you have some of thosesymptoms come on, or start
recognizing them more later onin?
Laura (21:00):
life.
Yeah, it's not linear really.
So when you are developingdissociative identity disorder,
many most believe that thatdevelops in childhood and cannot
be developed later it's.
You can maybe notice it later,where you could live a long time
and not realize that that'shappening for you.
(21:21):
But dissociative features andfunctions are developed during
your childhood because that'swhen your brain is developing
and when it's figuring out howto operate.
And so if your brain isoperating in a dissociated way
and doesn't get that integrationin childhood, then that's when
you're going to have that.
You can't go all the waythrough till you're, you know,
(21:48):
30 years old and never have hada dissociative experience, and
then suddenly now all youdissociate all the time.
That's not a thing that happens.
Michaela (22:00):
With this, things that are developed in childhood.
So we talked a little bit aboutlike the cognitive kinds of
things.
What about somatic experiences?
Can you have somatic typedissociations?
Laura (22:10):
kinds of things.
What about somatic experiences?
Can you have somatic typedissociations?
Yeah, totally so.
Somatic stuff, body stuff,right, feelings, different you
could have pain or different,different pains or feelings that
you're experiencing could be aresult of dissociative parts.
So pre-verbal, dissociative,pre-verbal trauma can create
(22:31):
dissociation that doesn't havewords, it just has feelings, it
just has body sensations, and sodissociation isn't one thing,
it's the way our brains andbodies experience information
that isn't fully integrated andprocessed.
And so if that body sensationdoesn't have a story, it doesn't
(22:56):
have an integrated piece ofnarrative that allows it to
function in an adaptive way thatwe think of as adults, like
when we think of a narrativestory.
If we had something happen to usthat there is no narrative for,
we might experience that aspain recreating itself.
(23:16):
That doesn't make any sense.
It can be phantom pains.
It can be pains that arehappening with no medical cause.
That's a common thing withdissociative processes is that
there's something physicallywrong, but that doesn't have a
medical explanation.
And so often we'll see peoplewho are constantly going to the
(23:42):
doctor and the doctors aresaying there's nothing wrong
with you.
There's nothing wrong with you,and you're like but I feel this
pain, but this is reallyhappening.
I have this thing going on andthey're like well, there's
nothing wrong with you and thenso it's just this like cycle of
invalidation and and denial ofone's self-experience, which can
just make it worse.
But what I find is that, whenwe can, I talk to the pain and
(24:07):
ask it you know what is it doingthere and what is the purpose
of it and you know that sounds alittle extra woo woo, but just
get weird with me for a minute.
You know when we can talk tothat stuff, sometimes it can
talk back and it can help usknow what it's doing and why
it's there and where it's comingfrom and what it.
What it needs us to know rightnow, and sometimes what it needs
(24:27):
us to know, is that it needs tobe healed on an emotional level
in a more integrated way, andit's not about a medical
presentation as much as it'sabout I have this thing that
happened to me and I don't knowwhat to do, and that can be
coming from a very young part ofoneself that is experiencing
something that is just too bigto know and understand.
(24:48):
You know we think ofdissociation as a couple of
different things, but one thingthat it can be is
non-realization, and so I can'tfully realize this thing that
happened to me, because it wastoo big and it's too much.
And for a child to realize thattheir caregiver is hurting them
is too big and too much becausethey have no way out.
(25:09):
And the best thing to do is tonot realize that it's happening
so that I can get through therest of the day right, because I
still have to go to school andI still have to eat and I still
have to get my other needs met,and so it's easier to just
separate this from myself thanit is to carry that all the time
.
And that's why we see thosethings coming out in different
ways, especially in kids, andwhen we're experiencing unknown
(25:34):
pain as an adult and othersomatic symptoms, it could be
helpful to talk to someone andand maybe do some somatic work.
There's a lot of greattherapists that could do.
There's something calledsomatic experiencing and that's
a really great way to workthrough some of those things and
to really get to the root of itand heal some of the underlying
(25:56):
root causes of those somaticsymptoms.
Michaela (25:59):
I love that and I what came up for me when you were
talking was like, it's not thatthe intention of the providers
that are saying we can't findanything, we can't find anything
isn't to, you know, maketypically make people feel
invalidated.
It's just they, they're that'sthe lack of their medical
(26:20):
knowledge, and they probablydon't know anything about
somatic dissociation.
They're just like, go see apsych person and so then the
person internalized that is that, as I'm like, I'm, oh, I'm
crazy, right, like they starthaving those negative thoughts
about themselves.
But how empowering must that beto finally go see someone and
(26:41):
they're like, oh, I know exactlywhat's going on with you.
Here's what you need to do,right?
Laura (26:46):
Well, yeah, and I love the book the Myth of Normal by
Dr Gabor Mate in where heexplains, as a medical doctor,
that anytime someone would comeinto his office he would ask,
like, have you experienced anytrauma?
And inevitably the answer isyes.
But that's the first time thatthey've been asked that question
(27:09):
.
That's the first time thatthey've been asked by a medical
professional about their historyof trauma.
And so these things getoverlooked.
Right, because we separate themind and body in this arbitrary,
as if they're not connected,way.
That really makes it difficultfor any one professional to get
(27:31):
the big picture, and I thinkwe're doing a better job of that
right now.
Right, and like that's thewhole purpose of you and I's
work together, shayla.
Like because we're trying tobring that back together and
really understand how our mindinfluences our body and our body
influences our mind.
You know there's more than oneway to work through some of this
(27:53):
distress.
Like medicine can help withparts of it, and you know,
therapy work can help with partsof it, and they could both be
doing the same thing or theycould be doing two different
things, and it doesn't mean oneis better than the other, it
just means that everythingmatters.
Michaela (28:11):
Right.
Well, and that makes me thinkof, like you know, the heart
rate variability training thatI'm doing right now in what
they're talking about is likeusing what we know about our
heart to help send signals andcalm that part of our bodies
down so that we can send thosesignals back to the brain and
(28:32):
have that communicate.
Hey, I got this, I'm okay.
Right, like I'm not, I don'thave to be in fight or flight
right now.
You can be in, you know, youcan have coherent state of your
body where there's balance andthat's your body actually
sending signals and helping healthe brain, which I think is so
powerful.
Laura (28:53):
Absolutely.
What wires together firestogether, right?
So when we practice somethingover and over, it gives us the
ability to call that back up oncue.
So a lot of meditative statesor meditative processes or like
visualizations you know, we dida visualization exercise as a
(29:14):
grounding skill recently on thispodcast and those are
dissociative, Like basically,we're saying I'm going to
imagine myself as not here, assomewhere else, and I'm going to
put myself in this, in thisstate of mind that is separated
from the present reality, andthen that's going to give me the
(29:35):
ability to come back into thepresent reality and notice my
surroundings from a freshperspective.
And so, you know, we thinkabout how all of these things
work together and they're allreally helpful.
And the biggest aspect of thebenefit, like the biggest
(29:56):
benefit here is that we can gaincontrol over it.
We can manage it, we can workwith it.
We don't have to be afraid ofit.
We don't have to be afraid ofthese things that are going on
with us.
We can say, oh, what is thisLike?
This is a signal, this isinformation.
How can I learn more about this?
How can I learn?
What is this doing for me?
We don't do things that don'tmake sense right.
(30:17):
So we need to understand, likewhat is this doing for me in
this moment?
What's the benefit of thisright now and how can I learn
what I need to learn and thenmove through it in a way that is
of the present time and place.
I love that.
So when I use my groundingskills I'm getting back to the
(30:41):
present.
But sometimes I need to use acalming skill before a grounding
skill, and that calming skillmight be taking myself out of
this moment and putting myselfon a beach, you know, and on my
favorite vacation, and I takemyself out of the present just
to be able to bring myself backinto the present.
It's like progressive mindrelaxation, right when you tense
(31:05):
up your muscles.
The progressive musclerelaxation, where you tense up
your muscles and then yourelease them to get present by
kind of going somewhere else andthen returning to the present,
is a really good way to getgrounded and to get stable back
in the moment and lower yourheart rate.
Michaela (31:25):
Yeah, that's huge.
What else other than groundingskills is important for people
to do to work through some ofthese things, to work through
dissociation?
Laura (32:02):
I think if we're dissociating so much that it's
disrupting our lives, wherewe're not able to fully engage
in our relationships and we'renot able to fully engage with
ourself and our relationship'thave to villainize it.
We can work with our anxietyand our depression and our you
know intrusive thoughts and ourdifficult concentration and our
you know distractibility.
We can work with all of thosethings and bring them together
as one whole person and we don'thave to be mad at those things.
(32:25):
I think that's really importantis compassion for yourself and
not villainizing these processesthat were designed to keep you
safe and alive and and help you.
So you mentioned fight orflight.
Before that survival stance,the survival mechanisms of fight
, flight, freeze, fawn, submitthose are all early primitive
(32:52):
survival responses thatinherently exist in all humans.
So that we don't die, we needthose things and that's where
dissociative processes are bornas well.
So when we're experiencingsomething that is so
overwhelming, our body and ourbrain is interpreting it as life
threat, and that doesn't haveto make sense in context to an
adult either.
(33:12):
Right, that's important tothink about.
Think about the differentperspective of a child versus an
adult in any situation could belife-threatening.
Getting lost at the mall islife-threatening.
You know, waking up and notknowing where your parents are,
that's life-threatening, likethinking about not having enough
food.
Or, you know, not knowing whereyour next meal is coming from
(33:35):
or whether or not your mom ordad is going to come home in a
good mood or in a really scarymood.
That terror that you'reexperiencing as a child is
life-threatening.
And so that's where dissociativeprocesses are born.
They're born out of thesurvival mechanisms that we all
carry, and those processes areincredibly helpful and they help
us survive childhood, whenchildhood is really difficult
(33:57):
and none of us get out of thisunscathed.
Our childhood is not for um,not for lack of trying, but is
hard right.
Being a kid is not always safeand stable, and that doesn't
always mean that our parents arebad parents.
Sometimes we're just strugglingand, um, our parents are
(34:18):
struggling, and that can makechildhood unsafe and unstable,
you know for me in that too islike not judging yourself for
having had those experiences asa child, right?
Michaela (34:33):
So so often I hear like I didn't have anything bad
happen to me or that wasn't thatbig of a deal.
I don't know why I'm respondinglike, why I can't just handle
things Right, and so it's so.
I think that we forget as an inour adult brains we're like
well, that's not that big of adeal but but we forget what the
reality was for us as a childand how that, how that was
(34:54):
experienced back then, before wehad our fully functioning,
formed brains.
Laura (35:01):
That's such a good point Not judging ourselves for the
experiences that we had as achild.
I love that, because the thingsthat happen to you don't say
anything about you.
You know, there's a differencebetween things that I went
through and things that I am,and sometimes we get those
things mixed up.
You know, I hear from clientsall the time about the messages
(35:24):
that we got in our childhood.
I hear that, whether it's goodor bad, those messages matter.
You know, we get these messagesfrom our parents of whether or
not we're capable of somethingor whether or not we deserve
something, and those things turninto our core beliefs.
Or whether or not we deservesomething, and those things turn
into our core beliefs.
And we need to be able to lookback and recognize that as a
(35:47):
child, we had to believe thosethings because we didn't have
any other context and there wasno other source of information
that was going to give us thistruth.
And we have to align with ourcaregivers in order to survive,
and so that's not bad.
It's just what we have to do,and sometimes what we have to do
(36:12):
comes with shame, and shame'sjob is to suppress.
James' job is to suppress, tosuppress yourself, to be able to
align with our caregiver, andwhen we have to do that, it
(36:32):
creates a wound, a scar thatthen is going to recur over and
over until it's healed.
That's deep.
I know this experience thatwe're having, that is shaping us
, and we have no say in what'sgoing to happen, in what's going
(36:57):
on, in who our parents are in,who our support system is in,
where we go to school and wherewe live.
We don't have any say in that.
And yet everything that'shappening is teaching us
something about ourselves.
And then, all of a sudden,you're supposed to know that
none of that is really true andthat you can be anybody you want
(37:19):
at the day that you turn 18.
How arbitrary that is Right.
And so this experience that youhad is going to stick around.
It's not just going to go away.
But we don't have, we're notresponsible for it.
We're not responsible for ourchildhood, we're responsible and
(37:39):
accountable for healing as anadult.
That's the difference.
We're not responsible for ourchildhood, we're responsible and
accountable for healing as anadult.
That's the difference.
We're not responsible for ourchildhood, we're responsible for
our adult healing.
Michaela (37:49):
And we can't make our parents have gone and done that
work.
Laura (37:55):
No, we can't make them different, and we can't control
other people's behavior with ourbehavior, even though, as a kid
, that's essentially our primarygoal in life is to control our
parents' behavior.
And so we're learning how totry to change people's behavior
(38:15):
with our behavior, because oursurvival depends on it.
But then, as an adult, thatstrategy is going to cause us a
great deal of harm because wecan't change other people, and
we don't need to, because we candepend on ourselves.
Michaela (38:30):
Right, but I think again, going back to not blaming
ourselves for creating thestrategy to begin with, because
it was born out of trying tofind safety.
It's just that we don't have tochoose to do it anymore because
it's maladaptive, it's nothelpful anymore, it's not going
to serve us anymore.
Laura (38:50):
Yeah, it's not a problem until it's a problem.
So once it's no longer servingus, then we need to do the work
to help our brains get that newinformation, fill in those
missing pieces and get the extrasupport that we need to do that
integration that we couldn't doback then because it wouldn't
have made sense.
(39:11):
But it makes sense now becausewe're safe now or we're safe
enough.
I like to say safe enough,right, because nobody can
guarantee that nothing bad isgoing to happen.
But what we can do is we canlive as presently as possible in
order to recognize that we havethe survival skills and we have
what we need in order to getthrough really difficult things
(39:33):
and it's okay if something badhappens in the future.
We have the responsibility ofbeing okay enough right now.
Michaela (39:44):
Yeah, and we can handle it, because we can handle
more than what we think we can.
Laura (39:49):
We can handle a lot more than we think we can.
And so, different ways ofgetting back to the present,
getting back to knowing thatwe're safe enough, there's lots
of things that one can do.
One thing is just a groundingskill that is based in the
present moment, which is likelooking around for things that
(40:12):
you recognize, like looking forfind five things that are blue
and name them.
Count four things that arecircles and name them.
So what you're doing is you'rebringing yourself into the room
and you're doing that externally, not necessarily internally.
So those are grounding skillsthat don't require the brain to
(40:35):
come up with anythingimaginative.
Right, Like we're.
Just we're using our senses ofsight.
Perhaps we do what are threethings that we hear right now.
So we're using our senses.
When we use our senses, ithelps us reorient to where we
are right now and that helps usget out of our heads and into
(40:55):
the space that we're in.
Michaela (40:56):
Yeah, Sometimes I hear people say that like they don't
feel safe when they're havingthat experience of not feeling
like things are real, and sowould a sensory grounding thing
be like holding an ice cube orsomething like that splashing
cold water in your face be agood option, especially if
(41:19):
you're kind of feeling thatout-of-body experience.
Laura (41:24):
Definitely, that derealization, that out-of-body
experience, is something we needto bring ourselves back into
our body right.
So bringing yourself to thepresent with something that you
can feel and touch, that'stangible, that can be really
helpful.
Some people use what we callanchors, where, in therapy or in
a positive space or state, youhave a talisman.
(41:48):
Maybe it's a coin, maybe it's astone, a crystal, anything that
you can hold on to, thatanchors you into that present
moment.
What we want to do is we wantto connect it to the positive
experience that you're having,the positive sense of safe
enough, connect it with thatanchor and then every time you
(42:09):
hold that talisman you canrecognize oh right, there's
safety there, I have that safety, right.
So you're wiring somethingtogether that you later want to
fire together and call up on ondemand I love that so that's a
really good one too well, andthen I think about like from
like a medication standpoint.
Michaela (42:30):
Right, there's not really any medication that will
treat um, dissociation, um, butyou know, if you're having
severe enough anxiety, you knowlooking at treating the anxiety
and the depression that go alongwith it can help reduce the
amount of time that you feellike you need to be, that you
(42:52):
feel like you can't handlethings right when you're going
to go check out Um and and, andoftentimes we see like a lot of
depersonalization andderealization within like PTSD,
and so if there is like a PTSDdiagnosis, there are things that
we can do to manage and treatthat specifically.
Um so there's options out there.
(43:13):
There's different supplementsand things that I use to kind of
help with reducing anxiety aswell.
Um, I think like essential oilsare really good too, like
lavender, for example.
That's the one I can think ofoff the top of my head that I
use the most.
I like mint, mint, okay, orlemon.
Laura (43:32):
Yeah, lemon balm.
There you go, yeah.
So those are really good onesthat we can.
Because we're using our sensesAgain, our senses can bring us
back to the present.
Because we're using our sensesagain, our senses can bring us
back to the present because oursenses are designed to evaluate
our environment for safety.
Yes, so that's why we have them.
We use them for that all thetime.
We use our sense of touch tosee if something's hot or sharp
(43:55):
or safe to touch or safe to movethrough.
We use our sense of smell todetermine if something is, you
know, rotten or if it's healthy,right.
So our senses are a reallyimportant aspect of our sense of
safety and so when we can useour senses to find safety, that
can help us a great deal.
(44:17):
Another thing is timeorientation, so saying, because
dissociationation, derealization, depersonalization, it's taking
you out of the present spaceand time, right, and it's
operating.
Our brain is operating from aplace that doesn't have a
connection to time or space,because it doesn't need that.
When we're surviving, we don'tneed a connection to time and
space.
That's not helpful.
It wouldn't be helpful.
(44:38):
If I'm, you know, in pain orbeing hurt, it doesn't help me
to know how long it's been.
I need to disconnect from thatsense of time so that it feels
like it went by in a flash,right?
So those survival mechanismsdon't have access to time.
So when we can reorient ourselfto time by like counting
backwards from 10 or watchingthe clock for a minute, or when
(45:02):
we can say the date, the date,the month, day and year, when we
can say exactly where we are,our address, the location that
we're standing, like right nowI'm in my office, or you know,
and I'm in Chandler, you know,saying where you are.
Another thing is saying how oldyou are and reminding yourself
(45:24):
that at least part of you canrecognize right now that you're
an adult and that an adult canhandle things differently than a
child can.
And so like inviting that adultpart of yourself to be the
leader in charge and if you'renot an adult, then inviting the
oldest aspect of yourself, right, like, however old you actually
are, the oldest possibleversion of yourself, who has the
(45:46):
most experience and is the mostcapable, is going to run the
show right now.
That's what we want to askourselves, because we can use
that information to reorient tothe present time.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Michaela (46:02):
Those are some really good suggestions.
Laura (46:05):
Those are my favorites.
Those are the ones I use whenI'm feeling out of it, because I
have a dissociative mind.
I have a mind that definitelycan just check all the way out
and completely not be here, andso I use these crowning skills.
I used to say I use them 37,000times a day.
(46:26):
I remind myself like where am I, who am I, how old am I?
Those are the things that workbest for me.
Michaela (46:33):
Yeah, I just really like breathing.
Like that just really helps meto like check back in, kind of
take myself back down, becausewe have so much stress that
we're going through.
You know, we have all thesethings that we're trying to take
care of and we're alwaysthinking about the future all
the time, and so I think thatthat creates a level of stress.
(46:55):
And so those, just thosebreathing skills are just, you
know, box breathing, squarebreathing, or just like just
breathing a little bit slowerand a little bit deeper, like
five slow breaths, and just kindof checking back in, kind of
like reducing that stress backdown.
You know, when you breathe in,your heart rate accelerates and
(47:15):
you're activating sympatheticnervous system, and when you
exhale you're actuallyactivating some of that
parasympathetic nervous system.
And so we can, we, we just kindof help with activating and and
deactivating that and kind ofjust helping get into that
coherent state and just feels somuch better.
Laura (47:35):
And sometimes breathing because, like you said, can
activate that heart rate.
Sometimes that can feel liketoo much.
So you want to do something toslow down.
Like blowing bubbles is reallygood because you're exhaling
right.
So you're activating thatsympathetic nervous system I'm
sorry, parasympathetic nervoussystem that is going to calm you
(47:55):
down.
So I always used to havebubbles in my office and I would
have people blow bubbles Likeif we were feeling like things
are too much, because thenyou're just focusing on that
exhale, yep.
Michaela (48:08):
That's so true.
I love that Bubbles.
Laura (48:11):
Bubbles.
Michaela (48:13):
The next time that my kids are fighting, I'm going to
have them blow bubbles.
Laura (48:18):
I highly recommend it, and it's just soap, so it washes
out, it's fine, it's not messyno.
So I think we've covered quitea lot of this.
Discussion on dissociation hasbeen quite thorough.
What do you think?
Michaela (48:36):
I think it was really good.
I mean, I always love hearingyour perspective.
Laura (48:40):
I mean, I really feel like you're an expert on this
topic and it's alwaysinteresting and I learn
something new every time we chatabout it, dissociative as I
(49:02):
think about the way that ourbrains work and the way that our
brains and our bodies worktogether, is inherently helpful.
Everything is helpful, and evenwhen it feels like it's not so,
I just want to help people knowthat this stuff can be okay and
you're not alone, and becauseif you have some of this stuff
(49:22):
going on with you, that doesn'tmean there's nothing wrong with
you.
It's just stuff that needs tobe worked out and you help the
people that you never need towork with.
That's what it does to usthey're a mess.
Well, thank you so much.
It was great.
Yeah, thank you, and thank youfor listening to.
(49:43):
Why am I like this?
If you like our show and youhate us, or hate us too on your
favorite podcast platform,follow the show and share it
with friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, laura wood and
machina beaver.
Our theme song is making andunique by thick as thieves, and
a special thanks to beneficiarycounseling and coaching and
active healing psychiatricservices for sponsoring our show
(50:05):
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