April 18, 2025 • 41 mins
We explore the science behind why human connection is essential for survival, from attachment theory to why our brains respond so profoundly to face-to-face interaction. Loneliness isn't simply being alone but a profound feeling of disconnection that can persist even when surrounded by others.
• Connection is crucial for safety and releases positive neurochemicals in our brains
• Attachment theory explains our innate survival need to connect with caregivers
• Digital connections don't activate the same neural networks as face-to-face interactions
• Spending just 15 minutes daily in meaningful connection can transform relationships
• We often defend against connection due to past experiences of rejection or pain
• Modern society facilitates isolation through remote work, delivery services, and digital communication
• Low-stakes practice like talking to service workers helps build connection skills
• Connection to ourselves is the foundation for connecting with others
• Repairing disconnected relationships requires persistence through initial discomfort
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Laura's Free Course on Emotional Development and Regulation:
https://benavieri.com/neuroception-sign-up/
This show is sponsored by:
Core Self
Benavieri Counseling & Coaching
www.benavieri.com
Active Healing Psychiatric Services
www.activehealingpsych.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura (00:02):
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
Michaela (00:09):
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a trauma therapist and I'm
Michaela Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Laura (00:17):
So, Michaela, why are we doing this podcast?
Michaela (00:20):
I'm so glad you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a little bit better,
how the things you learned aboutyourself and the world and
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
things that we think aboutourselves like that we might
wonder about.
Nope, I messed that up, we.
(00:44):
Yeah, I'm just going to startover over.
Okay, I'm so glad you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better how the
things that you learned aboutyourself and the world in
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
things about ourselves that wemight wonder about, like why?
(01:04):
Why am I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
Why are my thoughts so negative?
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all the time, yes
, and we are talking aboutloneliness.
Laura (01:18):
Today, we're going to try to answer the following
questions why is connection soimportant?
Why do I isolate myself and howdo I start connecting again?
So let's get into it.
What are your thoughts onconnection?
Michaela (01:40):
Why is that so important?
That's such a good question.
I think that it's important tostart by talking about, you know
, loneliness in itself and likewhat is loneliness, right?
So loneliness is a feeling ofdisconnection or a lack of
companionship that can lead toemotional pain, and so
connection is really importantin that it.
(02:06):
I think it comes down to safety.
You know, right, we need, weneed companionship, you know,
otherwise we'll feel like we'renot safe.
You know that provides a safetyaspect to things.
And then I think that it alsohelps us feel like happiness,
(02:27):
right, like that connectionreleases, you know, positive
neurochemicals in our brain,which leads us to feel like that
safety and attachment anddecreases that emotional pain
that we would feel if we werejust like on our own.
Laura (02:46):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, everything for me goesback to attachment theory.
Like you mentioned thatattachment, you know.
Attachment theory basically isthe theory that we have this we
have this empirical, like innate, instinctual need, a survival
(03:09):
need to connect, to attach withanother, with a caregiver.
So, as a human baby, we can'tmake it on the streets, we can't
handle our life alone, we haveto have someone take care of us,
and so the most importantsurvival instinct is to attach.
And so when we attach thecaregiver, the caregiver takes
(03:32):
care of us, makes us feel likewe're not alone and abandoned.
And when we feel alone andabandoned, we feel like we're
going to die, like thatemotional pain can be so big
that we literally feel likewe're going to die, like we
can't breathe.
And that's because, as a baby,if we don't have that attachment
(03:55):
, if we are abandoned, like welikely will die.
And so that's an that's asurvival instinct that goes back
, you know, forever in the humandevelopment and human evolution
.
Michaela (04:06):
Well, I think about like back in the day when the
people didn't survive on theirown as well, because you had to
forage for food, you had to findshelter, like there were things
that were dangerous out therethat could attack you.
There's safety in numbersattack you, there's safety in
numbers.
Laura (04:24):
There's safety in numbers and humans are social beings.
We require a social connection,a social network, in order to,
like you said, forge for food,but also, like, grow food and
have goods and services and thento reproduce.
Like we cannot be alone andsurvive as a species.
(04:47):
So like not only thatone-to-one attachment is
important, but often go againstthose instincts and we reject
the need for companionship andconnection and that's called a
(05:21):
defense against attachment cry.
And that's called a defenseagainst attachment cry Because
when we're kids, if we reach outto our caregiver and we get
rejected, that pain is so strongthat it tells us, like that
wasn't worth it, I'm never goingto let that happen again.
So then, if that happens overand over and over and over, I
stop reaching out for connectionbecause it's too painful for me
(05:44):
to do that.
I stop reaching out forconnection because it's too
painful for me to do that.
And so I have this defense upthat's basically thwarting my
need for attachment andthwarting my need for connection
and saying, no, you know, it'snot safe to connect, it's not
safe to reach out, it's not safeto attach.
And so I have this conflictinternally about needing other
(06:04):
people and then also like notwanting to be around other
people, not wanting to meetother people and I think I hear
that all the time Like peoplesay, people say stuff like I
hate people, like I hate beingaround other people.
And you know there's all thissocial anxiety in the world,
there's all this, you know,distress when it comes to teens
(06:27):
trying to talk to people inperson.
They don't know how to do that.
They connect online, theyinteract through apps, they
interact through games.
They don't actually interactthrough any kind of real
face-to-face back and forthconnection.
They're just like asynchronousor they're meaning like they're
(06:49):
not connected at the same time,like I'll send a message and
then I'll get a message back ata different time, or we're
playing a game or we're online,and that doesn't light up the
same neurochemicals and neuralnetworks that face-to-face
connection does and neuralnetworks that face-to-face
connection does.
Michaela (07:05):
Yeah, I think that all of that's true and I think it's
so interesting.
You know, I know that like thereare so many families that this
is and isn't the case for, butlike I think of, like the
opportunities for connection inthe home, right, and so these
(07:27):
kids do learn that, like theirlife is online, their friends
are online, nobody wants to goconnect in person but also like
there's less family connection,right, people aren't sitting and
eating dinner together, they'regrabbing, you know, food on the
go and they're eating in thecar, or they're going from this
(07:48):
event to this event, or theyjust feel like they don't want
to cook, and so then they're not.
They sit in front of the TV toeat, and so I think that they're
learning some of thesebehaviors.
In some cases, you know, eventhough the parents are like I
want you to come out of yourroom, what, why do you spend all
your time in your room?
But yet, like, did they reallyfoster early on that connection
(08:11):
and communication in the home?
You know, sometimes yes,sometimes no, but yeah, I mean,
I think that some of that isjust how we're having our kids
learn how to do things too.
Laura (08:27):
That's such a good point.
As a therapist, I tell clients,I tell parents of clients, all
the time that it's reallycrucial to spend like 15 minutes
a day connecting with your kid.
And for some that seems like toomuch time.
Like I don't have 15 minutes ina day and I'm like, okay, well,
let's try to make time.
(08:47):
Like I don't have 15 minutes ina day and I'm like, okay, well,
let's try to make five, let'stry to make 10.
Let's try to work up to it,because that relationship is the
primary aspect of the child'slike developmental safety and
emotional stability is theparent-child relationship.
And so spending 15 minutes aday of attuned time where it's
(09:11):
led by the child, we're notcorrecting the child, we're not
teaching them anything, we'renot criticizing them, we're just
enjoying their company and likereally connecting with them and
like having a relationship withthem outside of being their
director or their coach or theiryou know their rule maker.
Like because those rules areimportant, but the just the pure
(09:34):
relationship role is criticallyimportant for kids development.
Like connection is one thingthat makes our brains grow right
In a healthy way.
Michaela (09:44):
And and no sitting watching a movie together does
not count as connection.
Sitting and playing video gamestogether does not count as
connection.
Right like the, I don't.
I think it has to be like,really like, talking and
communicating.
Laura (09:59):
I think screenless time.
If you can't make screenlesstime like, like, as, at a
minimum, have the child likeexplain to you what they're
doing.
So I always say, if they'replaying a game, if they're
playing a video game, like, sitwith them and say like hey, tell
me about this game, like, teachme how to play, walk me through
this, show me how, instead ofjust you're not just like
sitting and just like engagingin your own worlds, you have to
(10:22):
be with them, engaged with them,where they're really like,
sharing with you, and you'rereceiving them and you're
sharing back and it's a two wayconversation and it's a
connected experience.
That's the way to make thathappen.
A client of mine shared thatsometimes what they will do is
they'll each pick a music video.
(10:44):
Sometimes what they will do isthey'll each pick a music video,
like the family will sit downtogether and then every family
member will like pick a musicvideo to watch together and then
they'll like discuss it, and soit's like that's an interactive
.
It doesn't have to be screenless, right, but you have to be
interacting, so like I agree,just like sitting and watching a
movie doesn't count, but the 10, 15 minutes afterwards where
(11:07):
you talk about what you justwatched, that counts right.
You have to say, like, what didyou think about this part?
Like, oh my gosh, I loved thispart.
What was your favorite?
Who did you, what did you thinkwas going to happen here, or
whatever.
Right Like, go through anddebrief and talk together and
experience it together so thatyou have that connection made.
You can't just sit in silence,cohabitating, that doesn't count
(11:32):
.
Michaela (11:35):
Well, that's that I learned something, I think, you
know.
I'm thinking like, yeah, noscreens, you know, and like I
think it's really hard to sitand play with children.
Like I know that some peoplehave great imaginations and are
really good at those things, butit can be really hard to just
(11:56):
sit and play and let them, youknow, lead.
It's challenging, and so Ithink then, like we get
frustrated or we're sittingthere and it's hard to connect
when we're feeling that kind ofway, how do you work around that
?
Laura (12:11):
I think one thing that I hear sometimes in the literature
is what we call caregiver mode.
So we just put ourselves incaregiver mode, meaning like I
am being a caregiver right now.
In caregiver mode, meaning likeI am being a caregiver right
now, I'm not being anything else, I'm not distracted by my phone
, I'm not thinking about what'sfor dinner, I'm not, you know,
(12:33):
thinking about work or all theother things that I could be
doing with this 15 minutes rightnow, because this is, quote
unquote, unproductive time.
That is right.
I might feel unproductive, likewe've talked about productivity
and we've talked about like,why am I so serious?
We've talked about so in allthese episodes kind of goes into
some of the things that mightbe running in the backgrounds in
our minds while we're trying tojust sit and play.
(12:55):
It's really a mindfulnessexercise, right.
Like we have to be grounded andcentered within ourselves to
sit and tolerate that this timeis going by and I'm not getting
anything done.
And so when we put ourselves incaregiver mode, what we're
doing is producing a caregiverrelationship.
We're being productive in thesense that we're, you know,
(13:19):
checking this 15 minute box andwe're saying, you know, I'm
building my relationship with mychild.
Right now that's what I'mactively doing, and so I think
another strategy is to be reallycurious.
When we're in caregiver mode,we'd be really curious about
what the child is experiencing.
We'd be really curious aboutwhat makes them smile.
(13:42):
We notice what makes them laugh.
We put ourselves in a positionto be impressed by them.
We're putting ourselves in aposition to learn from them,
like, teach me.
One thing kids love to do isteach you about their stuff, and
so if you can say, teach meabout this dragon right, where
did he come from?
(14:03):
Where you know what's his lifestory, tell me about this dragon
, like there's your 15 minutesright there.
So for a lot of kids at least.
So when you're in caregivermode you can be actively working
towards that relationship.
You can be actively focused ondoing that caregiving exercise
(14:23):
with your child, so that youdon't feel like you're taking
time out of your day becauseyou're supposed to be doing
something else.
Michaela (14:31):
I wonder, when we're in caregiver mode and we're
engaging in these things, do webenefit from that or do like
from the aspect of lonelinessand, and you know, connection?
Laura (14:47):
Yeah, because of oxytocin , right?
So we're bonding with thischild and this and we're.
This interaction is releasingpositive neurochemicals in our
brain, and so we are feelingconnected.
They're feeling connected.
We can feel good about justspending good time and not
having to correct or not havingto teach or not having to do all
this work.
(15:07):
You know, I'm doing less, I'menjoying myself, I'm
experiencing the present moment,I'm experiencing my child and
the joy that that brings.
So there's so many positiveaspects to that.
And then this same philosophycan go towards our adult
relationships too.
So, for those of us who aren'tparents, I'm thinking you know,
(15:31):
how do I connect with my partner?
15 minutes a day, just enjoyingtheir company, letting them
tell us about themselves,letting them, you know, share
with us what their day was like.
What about?
You know how they felt in thatmoment?
Like just taking some time toreally sit and connect and put
(15:52):
yourself in the mindset of I'min partner mode.
I'm in, I'm learning about thisperson mode.
I'm curious.
I'm open to hearing theirthoughts and their feelings.
Some things that might makethis hard are if we're not
feeling like we're getting ourneeds met overall in the
relationship we can like resentthat we're doing this, like I
(16:13):
hear that sometimes, right, likehow am I going to spend this
time?
Like they're not doing that forme?
Like okay, well, fair.
Like maybe have a conversationabout it.
Like hey, let's practice thisconnection.
Yeah, because I hear fromadults in relationships like I'm
with somebody, I'm in thisrelationship, but I feel lonely
all the time.
Michaela (16:34):
Yeah, that can be hard .
Well, so we're talking aboutloneliness and we're talking
about, you know, isolatingourselves and things like that.
I also think that you know thatloneliness is not to be
confused with, like the idea oflike solitude, right, and
(16:57):
someone who likes their alonetime, okay, to to enjoy being by
yourself, but you know, it's avoluntary choice to be on your
own, but those people are alsostill maintaining positive
social connection during thetimes that they choose to Mm-hmm
(17:21):
.
Laura (17:22):
Yeah, when we are choosing to spend time alone,
that doesn't mean we have to belonely in that moment.
Sometimes that's self-care,right.
Sometimes that's prioritizingourself and giving ourselves
some time to gather our thoughtsor to journal or to just
(17:43):
experience nature.
Go for going for a walk, doingsomething you know, exercising,
doing something that is alone.
Between solitude and loneliness, like I think loneliness is an
ache, it's a feeling ofisolation that is bigger than
(18:06):
just like um is bigger than thanjust I'm on my own, I'm eating
dinner alone and it's awkward orsomething.
Yeah, disconnect, yeah, it'sdisconnection.
And you know it's even in as atherapist, like in the
therapeutic world, 50%, at least50% of the outcomes in therapy
(18:32):
depend on the therapeuticrelationship.
So it's that connection, thatrelationship, that actually
makes therapy work.
It's that because that's whatboosts development, that's what
allows for development to happen, is when you can be connected,
be co-regulated, be in a momentwhere you're seen and witnessed
(18:57):
and you're heard and you'revalued and you're validated.
And that sense of not beingalone, that sense of being
together, is really where a lotof the work is happening.
Michaela (19:09):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, Allowing yourself to bevulnerable and not be judged,
and building connection andforging that.
It may be possible that I canbe vulnerable with others and
not be judged as well, so thenthat brings them to feel like
(19:29):
they can forge other positiveconnections and with other
people in the real world and andbuild on those and and and have
good outcomes.
Yeah.
Laura (19:41):
Yeah, and so you know, when it comes to like, why we
isolate ourselves.
We have that defense mechanism,but we also have society and
like the culture right now andthe way that the world is set up
.
You know like we get everythingdelivered.
We don't talk to the gross likethe checkout person at the
(20:06):
grocery store, the cashier.
We don't.
We get, we do self-checkout.
You know we order everythingonline.
Um, we work from home.
We've sometimes we go to schoolat home.
We're really in this community,we're lacking community.
Michaela (20:23):
I know that's one of the things that you know we've
my husband and I have talkedabout too is like and I think
like he grew up in a small townwhere everybody knows everybody,
and I think that like being inthe city now, like you go to a
birthday party and you know alot of the time nobody's talking
to each other, like nobody.
Everybody kind of does theirown things that's on their phone
(20:46):
.
Everybody feels awkward and soeven when we're together, we're
not together.
Laura (20:54):
Yeah, we almost go.
We go out of our way to avoidinteracting, right, we go out of
our way to not have thatconnection with people.
We really isolate ourselvesbecause sometimes it can be
uncomfortable.
I think we've learned, we've,we've forgotten these skills,
right, like if you don't use it,you lose it.
(21:15):
And I think so many thingschanged during COVID we're still
seeing the results of that,where some things never changed
back, some things never wentback to quote, unquote normal or
the way things were before,because of businesses, because
of industry, because of the waythings shifted in our, in our
work culture, in our homeenvironment.
(21:37):
Like we stayed home and we kindof forgot.
We didn't flex that muscle fora long time, we didn't exercise
that social muscle for a longtime, so we kind of forgot how
to do it.
Michaela (21:49):
Yeah Well, and some people have gone to work
remotely and they're terrifiedto return back to work.
There's so many benefits ofworking from home outside of the
social piece of things likethat, like having to go back to
work.
You know, it's not even enoughpull to be social to go back
(22:12):
right To enjoy being aroundother people, to hang out and
chat at lunchtime, whatever,like that's not a big enough
draw that they want to go backto work.
Laura (22:23):
Well, and you know, we think, oh, I connect with people
on social media or I connectwith people via text or whatever
, but that's not the same.
It's not the same thing.
But our world is sort of set upin this way, where we stay home
and we maybe look at each other.
It's like we're looking througheach other's windows but we're
(22:46):
not really in each other's lives, right Well?
Michaela (22:52):
and I think that you get the highlight reel, and so
you make up a lot of you, youmake up a lot of you, fill in
the blanks, right, like, and sothey have it all together.
Things must be so great where,like, if you were actually
connecting, you would know thegood and the bad things, that
the things that are hard plusthe things that are going
awesome.
And you're not getting that.
(23:13):
And I think about, like youknow, we talk a lot about
scrolling and people just getsucked into scrolling while
they're searching for oxytocin,they're searching for connection
, and the reason you get stuckscrolling and scrolling is
scrolling is because you arenever meeting that need for
connection.
Laura (23:32):
Yeah, we're never really getting our needs met in that
way.
So we keep looking and keep andwe're kind of doing the same
thing over and over but we'renot getting a better result.
And I think you know, when itcomes to like, okay, what do we
do?
You know, how do we stopisolating ourselves?
Like, how do we, how do weshift away from that?
(23:55):
Like I think we have to putourselves out there.
One of my goals this year wasto be more social, and so I have
a time like, instead of sendinga text, like I make a phone
call and I say like, hey, howare you?
Whatever?
Like, if I'm on my way to work,instead of listening to a
podcast, like I'll make a phonecall and reach out to a friend
who maybe I haven't talked to ina while and maybe I have 15
(24:17):
minutes or whatever, but that's15 minutes of connection.
And then I always feel betterafter every single time I do
that.
I feel better, um, evenunderstand why people.
Michaela (24:30):
I'm like I don't get it, like I'd rather just talk to
somebody than send a message orlike whatever.
I feel like I can get my pointacross easier, like it just
feels better to make a phonecall.
I never really understood, like, why people just text all the
time.
Laura (24:48):
I think because we found that we can maybe multitask um,
we can do too many things atonce.
Like this illusion ofmultitasking by like, oh, I'm
sending a text and then I'mstill like cooking dinner or I'm
still talking to somebody else,I'm having multiple
conversations with multiplepeople at a time and, you know,
(25:08):
it's like it's this efficiencybut and it's just like this
quick sort of almost.
Michaela (25:17):
But is it, though?
Like I feel like I I'm maybeI'm just really bad at this, but
like I feel like more and more,when I just send messages,
people don't.
I don't, I I don't, maybe I'mnot a great communicator that
way, but like I feel like themessage gets misconstrued or I
leave out important details ofwhat someone might need to know.
(25:39):
And if I just called them, theycould have asked the follow-up
questions and I could, and thenbe done faster.
Is it really more efficient?
Or are we just, you know,causing more confusion?
And like people don't thinkthat, they think that we're mad
at them because of because wesaid it in a way that had tone
or something, you know?
Laura (26:00):
Yeah, I totally agree with everything you're saying.
I think you're absolutely right.
And it's this facade andillusion that we can stay
connected with all these peoplevia just text messages or apps
or whatever.
That's just, it's flat, nottrue.
We are fooling ourselves.
Michaela (26:16):
Yeah.
Or like we send a text and then, like we realize that they
never messaged us back and thenlike, oh, they must be mad at me
, right, like I don't know.
I just feel like there's waymore opportunity for like
disconnect in in that way, andso that could be leading us to
feeling frustrated or isolatedbecause people don't have the
(26:39):
time to respond back in a quick,timely manner or whatever, and
so then we feel more frustrated.
We feel like they don't love usor they don't care about us
because they didn't answer ourmessage you know, they didn't
like our post on Facebook and sothey must be mad at me or they
must not like me.
Laura (26:57):
I think that's exactly what happens and I think that
contributes to this feeling ofloneliness, like I'm texting
somebody and they're not textingme back, or you know I posted
something and nobody'sresponding, like I, you know, if
those are the ways that you'rereaching out, like you won't get
your needs met.
And so in order to get ourneeds met and actually start
(27:19):
connecting again, we have to goout into the world.
We have to do it, even thoughit's hard.
Yeah, get past the anxiety andthe dread of going to a social
event and just go and, you know,interact with people in real
life, even if it's, you know,just inviting your friends over
(27:41):
for dinner or inviting them outto go, you know, have a lunch,
or just connecting with anyone.
Some of my friends and I we dolike a happy hour once a quarter
and we just we always scheduleit, we make sure it's on the
calendar and we can connect oncea quarter, and it because our
lives get so busy and it's sohard and we have so many excuses
(28:04):
, but it's like, no, putting iton the calendar.
Once a quarter we're going tomeet for happy hour, like, even
if it's something small, likethat, if you have two or three
people that you're doing thatwith like.
Then you're getting some intoin-person, face-to-face
connection, like once a week,yeah.
Michaela (28:27):
Well, and I know that there's a lot of you know
concerns for, like people thatare post like college age, move
to a new city, or like all myfriends I, maybe, I maybe I've
lived here for a long time andmy friends have all moved away
and meeting friends in like ourthirties and forties and fifties
, whatever, like that can bereally hard, and some of you
(28:50):
know some of these people feellike they do try to put
themselves out there and itdoesn't seem to work, or they
they didn't make any real likegood connections and so then
they still find themselvesisolated.
Do you have any suggestions forpeople who are in that
situation?
Laura (29:08):
Yeah, you know, I think there's a way to use the apps
for good.
There's a lot of like in-personmeetups that you can find.
A lot of times there are likeneighborhood meetups or like in
some of the groups that I'veseen on Facebook they'll have.
Like I think there's one calledlike moms and mimosas or like
(29:30):
you know, like Arizona girlshang out or whatever.
Like there's all thesedifferent people who are
connecting and setting these up.
We just have to kind of putourselves out there and go and
if we don't make a connection,not to be discouraged yeah, like
I think that's the biggest partis we can use the apps that we
have.
We go and put ourselves in thatposition, put ourselves out
(29:52):
there, go out and do the thing.
Go to the employee luncheon, goto the you know new people, you
know, and then if you don't getwhat you want out of that, like
it's okay and you can try again.
It doesn't say anything aboutyou that the connection wasn't
made.
I think that's important toremember too.
Michaela (30:16):
Yeah, I mean, I think I've seen so many of those posts
on Facebook where someone'slike I just moved here and
looking for friends, and thenall these people like say, yeah,
let's be friends, let's befriends.
I have kids your age, whateverLike, and I don't know if any
like does anything actuallyhappen.
Do people actually followthrough on those things?
(30:38):
You know?
Laura (30:41):
Yeah, I think that's a good question.
I that's a good bit of researchto find out.
I'm interested to see if thosecoffee chats or those like play
dates or you know gettinginvolved in your children's
school, like in the PTA, goingto the, you know, choir concert,
(31:02):
going to the kids sports events, going to those things and
striking up a conversationinstead of sitting on your phone
.
So, like that's, another pieceof advice is get off your phone,
put your phone away.
Michaela (31:14):
Yeah, it's just safety behavior, though.
It's just like averting youreyes or not looking at people,
or like looking like sittingwith your arms crossed and
trying to avoid eye contact.
All of those things are going.
They're safety behaviors.
You're trying to protectyourself, but what you're really
doing is sending nonverbal cuesthat you don't want to talk to.
Anybody.
Nobody's going to want toapproach you if you don't look
(31:35):
approachable.
Right, you have to be mindfulof your nonverbal communication.
That could be getting in yourway and you're trying to make
yourself feel comfortable, butit might not be working out so
well for you.
The other thing that I tellpeople is like start a hobby, go
play pickleball.
Go go to knitting, find aknitting thing, go to like what
(31:58):
do you like to do?
There's, you know, go hiking,meet people in the things that
you like to do, and if you'redoing things that you enjoy,
maybe the people that are likeyou will also find you.
Laura (32:12):
I think that's great advice.
And going out and doing thingsin person, talking to the server
at the restaurant, talking tothe cashier at the grocery store
, like saying hey, how are you?
And you know saying I'm doinggood, you know what, what's your
day like today, or you knowjust like engaging in more of a
(32:32):
conversation than just avoidingthe conversation entirely is
really helpful and likesometimes you can walk away
feeling really good, like havinga really good conversation,
like walk away with a smile.
It'll make you feel fulfilled,it can make you feel like you're
more connected in general.
Michaela (32:51):
And it's a super low stakes practice too, like I mean
, think about that, like justtalking to your server, talking
to the grocery person checkingyou out, like that is low stakes
, you know you're never going toprobably see that person again
or you know you may rarely seethem, right Like you're not
going to, you're not outanything, and you can practice
(33:13):
being able to feel moreconfident in communicating with
people.
Laura (33:17):
Yeah, I love that.
Low stakes practice, I think,is really important.
And you know, when we are goingto the dog park with our dogs,
when we are walking in ourneighborhood for our afternoon
walk, like, take out ourheadphones, put the, put the
phone away, put the headphonesaway, really experience the
world around you and you willstart to feel more connected
(33:39):
with yourself too.
Like, I think that's one thingthat we don't necessarily think
about.
But our connection to ourselfis what starts all of this.
Our own sense of securitywithin ourself and our own
thoughts and our own attachmentto ourselves and our own needs
and our confidence.
Our confidence, our ability toget our needs met, our ability
(34:00):
to be successful, our sense ofour capacity to tolerate the
world All of those thingsimprove when we start with a
connection to ourself.
And that means getting to knowourselves too and really
dropping in and thinking likewhat do I care about?
What are my values, what'simportant to me, what do I enjoy
(34:21):
?
Michaela (34:22):
You know we have to take some risks and be a little
vulnerable in order to movethrough the loneliness and the
disconnection and move intoconnection and happiness again
yeah, I was reading somethinginteresting and it said that you
(34:43):
know, people who aren't lonelyor like on their own, who hang
out with people who are lonelyor like spend a lot of time with
people who are lonely, are moreare likely to become lonely or
start feeling more lonely.
Do you think that's?
Laura (34:58):
true, that's interesting.
I mean I could see how thatmight be true from the
perspective of the defensivenessthat comes from a person who's
isolating.
Like if a person who isdefending against connection and
is trying to stay alone andstay isolated and stay in that
(35:19):
safe zone of disconnection, thenthey're going to push you away,
they might make you feel lessconnected and then you start to
get those feel those samefeelings of like the sense of
loneliness, kind of like what wetalked about, where you could
be in a relationship withsomebody but feel really lonely.
Yeah, that was reallyinteresting.
(35:40):
That is interesting that isinteresting.
Michaela (35:54):
So I mean, when we say we say we haven't done a good
job of these things likeespecially with like connecting
with our kids or our significantother, how do we start to like
repair that?
Right, Because we've alreadydeveloped in our kids, for
example, that defense againstattachment and things like that,
and you know we might bepushing against them already
being disconnected.
You know, I hear so much, likeI said, that these kids just
(36:15):
stay in their rooms and theydon't want to leave their rooms
and that's how they connect withtheir friends, and then we feel
really bad because they don'treally want to hang out with us
and we keep trying to get themto do the things like.
How do we start pulling themout of that?
Laura (36:30):
yeah, it's tough when we're in habits, right, because
we have to change those habitsand the first thing to know is
that you just have to start.
You start doing one thing onetime and then you do it again,
and then you do it again andthen it becomes a habit, right?
So making a change requiresaction, requires us to put
(36:55):
ourselves out there one time,see what happens If it doesn't
go well, we don't getdiscouraged, we try it again.
We say, okay, I'm going toinvite my kid down to make a
pizza with me.
I'm going to invite them to,you know, watch a show and I'm
(37:15):
going to try to talk to themafter and see how it goes.
I'm going to knock on theirdoor and come into their room
and be like, hey, what are youdoing?
What's up with you?
Like how, how was day?
I'm going to just startinteracting on a different level
and I'm going to be patient andI'm going to make sure that,
(37:36):
even though I'm discouraged, I'mgoing to try to do it anyway.
Michaela (37:39):
Yeah, I like that.
I think that that's like suchgood practical advice, because
there's so many people that arestruggling with trying to
connect with their teenagers andthey're like, oh, it's just
hormones, like I don't know, butreally, like this is something
that like is so easy to do, andso, like I think the big thing
(38:01):
is is like fighting against yourown like internal discomfort.
When they're irritated abouthaving to do it, you know that's
right.
They're like go away and you'relike normally.
You're like, fine, fine, I'mout of here, right, like I don't
have to do right, instead,you're going to sit with this
discomfort and be like, yeah, no, I'm not going to go anywhere,
(38:22):
I'm just going to hang out here,I'm just trying to talk, like,
and it's going to feel reallyawkward, I think.
Laura (38:29):
Yeah, it likely will feel awkward, but eventually they'll
get used to it and you'll getused to it.
Um, but that's the thing.
It's a vulnerability and we'reputting ourselves out there and
that we're taking a risk, andthat's okay to do.
Michaela (38:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I know it makes me thinkabout like my littles and when
they're mad, and that's okay todo.
Yeah, I know it makes me thinkabout like my littles and when
they're mad and that angercreates disconnection and they
yell at you and they're like Ihate you, like you're the worst,
or like you know I don't loveyou or something.
Right there's, they're mad,they're trying to.
You know they're, they'refeeling their stuff and you know
(39:07):
we feel horrible in that moment.
You know we just don't feelgood and then we internalize.
We can choose to internalizethat or we can recognize that
like it's really not about us,about whatever's going on for
them, and being able to sit inthat discomfort is hard but and
it's uncomfortable, but likethey don't really feel that way,
(39:30):
they don't really hate us, likeno, they just are having a
moment.
And when we can separateourselves from those like
negative feelings that it givesus, then we can, we can move
through those interactions a loteasier.
Laura (39:44):
And that goes back to sort of a mindfulness exercise,
right To be mindful of, likenote taking note like, okay,
that hurt my feelings and I canstill be.
Okay, I can still move throughthis, I can still be in
caregiver mode, I can still bein partner mode, because it's
the same with, like an adult whopushes you away or who rejects
(40:06):
you.
When you feel rejected, you cansay I feel this way, this hurts
my feelings and I can still dothis thing.
Michaela (40:14):
Right.
Laura (40:15):
I don't have to go with that.
I don't have to do the thingthat my feelings are telling me
to do, which is probably toisolate and run away.
Right, I can actually say that,hurt my feelings, you know, and
look for the repair.
Michaela (40:30):
Yeah, and then vent about it to your friends later.
Exactly.
Laura (40:35):
That's exactly right, and so that makes you feel
connected and makes you feelbetter, because we've got
someone to commiserate with andco-sign on our pain and our rage
, and that makes a bigdifference.
But we have to seek thatconnection in the first place.
Michaela (40:56):
Yeah, this is so interesting I know, I think so
too.
Laura (40:59):
It took us in a lot of different directions that I
didn't expect.
And yeah, I mean, I thinkthat's a good place to end it
for today with just encouragingeveryone to start thinking about
how they can make oneconnection a week, just one a
week, do something differentlyso they can feel a tiny bit more
connected and see where thatleads them.
(41:21):
That's a great question, okay,well, well, thank you so much
and thank you for listening towhy am I like this.
If you like our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
your favorite podcast platform,follow the show and share it
with your friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, Laura Wood and
(41:42):
Michaela Beaver.
Our theme song is making endsmeet by Thick as Thieves, and a
special thanks to BenavieriCounseling and Active Healing
Psychiatric Services forsponsoring this show.
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
Michaela (00:09):
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a trauma therapist and I'm
Michaela Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Laura (00:17):
So, Michaela, why are we doing this podcast?
Michaela (00:20):
I'm so glad you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a little bit better,
how the things you learned aboutyourself and the world and
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
things that we think aboutourselves like that we might
wonder about.
Nope, I messed that up, we.
(00:44):
Yeah, I'm just going to startover over.
Okay, I'm so glad you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better how the
things that you learned aboutyourself and the world in
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
things about ourselves that wemight wonder about, like why?
(01:04):
Why am I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
Why are my thoughts so negative?
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all the time, yes
, and we are talking aboutloneliness.
Laura (01:18):
Today, we're going to try to answer the following
questions why is connection soimportant?
Why do I isolate myself and howdo I start connecting again?
So let's get into it.
What are your thoughts onconnection?
Michaela (01:40):
Why is that so important?
That's such a good question.
I think that it's important tostart by talking about, you know
, loneliness in itself and likewhat is loneliness, right?
So loneliness is a feeling ofdisconnection or a lack of
companionship that can lead toemotional pain, and so
connection is really importantin that it.
(02:06):
I think it comes down to safety.
You know, right, we need, weneed companionship, you know,
otherwise we'll feel like we'renot safe.
You know that provides a safetyaspect to things.
And then I think that it alsohelps us feel like happiness,
(02:27):
right, like that connectionreleases, you know, positive
neurochemicals in our brain,which leads us to feel like that
safety and attachment anddecreases that emotional pain
that we would feel if we werejust like on our own.
Laura (02:46):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, everything for me goesback to attachment theory.
Like you mentioned thatattachment, you know.
Attachment theory basically isthe theory that we have this we
have this empirical, like innate, instinctual need, a survival
(03:09):
need to connect, to attach withanother, with a caregiver.
So, as a human baby, we can'tmake it on the streets, we can't
handle our life alone, we haveto have someone take care of us,
and so the most importantsurvival instinct is to attach.
And so when we attach thecaregiver, the caregiver takes
(03:32):
care of us, makes us feel likewe're not alone and abandoned.
And when we feel alone andabandoned, we feel like we're
going to die, like thatemotional pain can be so big
that we literally feel likewe're going to die, like we
can't breathe.
And that's because, as a baby,if we don't have that attachment
(03:55):
, if we are abandoned, like welikely will die.
And so that's an that's asurvival instinct that goes back
, you know, forever in the humandevelopment and human evolution
.
Michaela (04:06):
Well, I think about like back in the day when the
people didn't survive on theirown as well, because you had to
forage for food, you had to findshelter, like there were things
that were dangerous out therethat could attack you.
There's safety in numbersattack you, there's safety in
numbers.
Laura (04:24):
There's safety in numbers and humans are social beings.
We require a social connection,a social network, in order to,
like you said, forge for food,but also, like, grow food and
have goods and services and thento reproduce.
Like we cannot be alone andsurvive as a species.
(04:47):
So like not only thatone-to-one attachment is
important, but often go againstthose instincts and we reject
the need for companionship andconnection and that's called a
(05:21):
defense against attachment cry.
And that's called a defenseagainst attachment cry Because
when we're kids, if we reach outto our caregiver and we get
rejected, that pain is so strongthat it tells us, like that
wasn't worth it, I'm never goingto let that happen again.
So then, if that happens overand over and over and over, I
stop reaching out for connectionbecause it's too painful for me
(05:44):
to do that.
I stop reaching out forconnection because it's too
painful for me to do that.
And so I have this defense upthat's basically thwarting my
need for attachment andthwarting my need for connection
and saying, no, you know, it'snot safe to connect, it's not
safe to reach out, it's not safeto attach.
And so I have this conflictinternally about needing other
(06:04):
people and then also like notwanting to be around other
people, not wanting to meetother people and I think I hear
that all the time Like peoplesay, people say stuff like I
hate people, like I hate beingaround other people.
And you know there's all thissocial anxiety in the world,
there's all this, you know,distress when it comes to teens
(06:27):
trying to talk to people inperson.
They don't know how to do that.
They connect online, theyinteract through apps, they
interact through games.
They don't actually interactthrough any kind of real
face-to-face back and forthconnection.
They're just like asynchronousor they're meaning like they're
(06:49):
not connected at the same time,like I'll send a message and
then I'll get a message back ata different time, or we're
playing a game or we're online,and that doesn't light up the
same neurochemicals and neuralnetworks that face-to-face
connection does and neuralnetworks that face-to-face
connection does.
Michaela (07:05):
Yeah, I think that all of that's true and I think it's
so interesting.
You know, I know that like thereare so many families that this
is and isn't the case for, butlike I think of, like the
opportunities for connection inthe home, right, and so these
(07:27):
kids do learn that, like theirlife is online, their friends
are online, nobody wants to goconnect in person but also like
there's less family connection,right, people aren't sitting and
eating dinner together, they'regrabbing, you know, food on the
go and they're eating in thecar, or they're going from this
(07:48):
event to this event, or theyjust feel like they don't want
to cook, and so then they're not.
They sit in front of the TV toeat, and so I think that they're
learning some of thesebehaviors.
In some cases, you know, eventhough the parents are like I
want you to come out of yourroom, what, why do you spend all
your time in your room?
But yet, like, did they reallyfoster early on that connection
(08:11):
and communication in the home?
You know, sometimes yes,sometimes no, but yeah, I mean,
I think that some of that isjust how we're having our kids
learn how to do things too.
Laura (08:27):
That's such a good point.
As a therapist, I tell clients,I tell parents of clients, all
the time that it's reallycrucial to spend like 15 minutes
a day connecting with your kid.
And for some that seems like toomuch time.
Like I don't have 15 minutes ina day and I'm like, okay, well,
let's try to make time.
(08:47):
Like I don't have 15 minutes ina day and I'm like, okay, well,
let's try to make five, let'stry to make 10.
Let's try to work up to it,because that relationship is the
primary aspect of the child'slike developmental safety and
emotional stability is theparent-child relationship.
And so spending 15 minutes aday of attuned time where it's
(09:11):
led by the child, we're notcorrecting the child, we're not
teaching them anything, we'renot criticizing them, we're just
enjoying their company and likereally connecting with them and
like having a relationship withthem outside of being their
director or their coach or theiryou know their rule maker.
Like because those rules areimportant, but the just the pure
(09:34):
relationship role is criticallyimportant for kids development.
Like connection is one thingthat makes our brains grow right
In a healthy way.
Michaela (09:44):
And and no sitting watching a movie together does
not count as connection.
Sitting and playing video gamestogether does not count as
connection.
Right like the, I don't.
I think it has to be like,really like, talking and
communicating.
Laura (09:59):
I think screenless time.
If you can't make screenlesstime like, like, as, at a
minimum, have the child likeexplain to you what they're
doing.
So I always say, if they'replaying a game, if they're
playing a video game, like, sitwith them and say like hey, tell
me about this game, like, teachme how to play, walk me through
this, show me how, instead ofjust you're not just like
sitting and just like engagingin your own worlds, you have to
(10:22):
be with them, engaged with them,where they're really like,
sharing with you, and you'rereceiving them and you're
sharing back and it's a two wayconversation and it's a
connected experience.
That's the way to make thathappen.
A client of mine shared thatsometimes what they will do is
they'll each pick a music video.
(10:44):
Sometimes what they will do isthey'll each pick a music video,
like the family will sit downtogether and then every family
member will like pick a musicvideo to watch together and then
they'll like discuss it, and soit's like that's an interactive
.
It doesn't have to be screenless, right, but you have to be
interacting, so like I agree,just like sitting and watching a
movie doesn't count, but the 10, 15 minutes afterwards where
(11:07):
you talk about what you justwatched, that counts right.
You have to say, like, what didyou think about this part?
Like, oh my gosh, I loved thispart.
What was your favorite?
Who did you, what did you thinkwas going to happen here, or
whatever.
Right Like, go through anddebrief and talk together and
experience it together so thatyou have that connection made.
You can't just sit in silence,cohabitating, that doesn't count
(11:32):
.
Michaela (11:35):
Well, that's that I learned something, I think, you
know.
I'm thinking like, yeah, noscreens, you know, and like I
think it's really hard to sitand play with children.
Like I know that some peoplehave great imaginations and are
really good at those things, butit can be really hard to just
(11:56):
sit and play and let them, youknow, lead.
It's challenging, and so Ithink then, like we get
frustrated or we're sittingthere and it's hard to connect
when we're feeling that kind ofway, how do you work around that
?
Laura (12:11):
I think one thing that I hear sometimes in the literature
is what we call caregiver mode.
So we just put ourselves incaregiver mode, meaning like I
am being a caregiver right now.
In caregiver mode, meaning likeI am being a caregiver right
now, I'm not being anything else, I'm not distracted by my phone
, I'm not thinking about what'sfor dinner, I'm not, you know,
(12:33):
thinking about work or all theother things that I could be
doing with this 15 minutes rightnow, because this is, quote
unquote, unproductive time.
That is right.
I might feel unproductive, likewe've talked about productivity
and we've talked about like,why am I so serious?
We've talked about so in allthese episodes kind of goes into
some of the things that mightbe running in the backgrounds in
our minds while we're trying tojust sit and play.
(12:55):
It's really a mindfulnessexercise, right.
Like we have to be grounded andcentered within ourselves to
sit and tolerate that this timeis going by and I'm not getting
anything done.
And so when we put ourselves incaregiver mode, what we're
doing is producing a caregiverrelationship.
We're being productive in thesense that we're, you know,
(13:19):
checking this 15 minute box andwe're saying, you know, I'm
building my relationship with mychild.
Right now that's what I'mactively doing, and so I think
another strategy is to be reallycurious.
When we're in caregiver mode,we'd be really curious about
what the child is experiencing.
We'd be really curious aboutwhat makes them smile.
(13:42):
We notice what makes them laugh.
We put ourselves in a positionto be impressed by them.
We're putting ourselves in aposition to learn from them,
like, teach me.
One thing kids love to do isteach you about their stuff, and
so if you can say, teach meabout this dragon right, where
did he come from?
(14:03):
Where you know what's his lifestory, tell me about this dragon
, like there's your 15 minutesright there.
So for a lot of kids at least.
So when you're in caregivermode you can be actively working
towards that relationship.
You can be actively focused ondoing that caregiving exercise
(14:23):
with your child, so that youdon't feel like you're taking
time out of your day becauseyou're supposed to be doing
something else.
Michaela (14:31):
I wonder, when we're in caregiver mode and we're
engaging in these things, do webenefit from that or do like
from the aspect of lonelinessand, and you know, connection?
Laura (14:47):
Yeah, because of oxytocin , right?
So we're bonding with thischild and this and we're.
This interaction is releasingpositive neurochemicals in our
brain, and so we are feelingconnected.
They're feeling connected.
We can feel good about justspending good time and not
having to correct or not havingto teach or not having to do all
this work.
(15:07):
You know, I'm doing less, I'menjoying myself, I'm
experiencing the present moment,I'm experiencing my child and
the joy that that brings.
So there's so many positiveaspects to that.
And then this same philosophycan go towards our adult
relationships too.
So, for those of us who aren'tparents, I'm thinking you know,
(15:31):
how do I connect with my partner?
15 minutes a day, just enjoyingtheir company, letting them
tell us about themselves,letting them, you know, share
with us what their day was like.
What about?
You know how they felt in thatmoment?
Like just taking some time toreally sit and connect and put
(15:52):
yourself in the mindset of I'min partner mode.
I'm in, I'm learning about thisperson mode.
I'm curious.
I'm open to hearing theirthoughts and their feelings.
Some things that might makethis hard are if we're not
feeling like we're getting ourneeds met overall in the
relationship we can like resentthat we're doing this, like I
(16:13):
hear that sometimes, right, likehow am I going to spend this
time?
Like they're not doing that forme?
Like okay, well, fair.
Like maybe have a conversationabout it.
Like hey, let's practice thisconnection.
Yeah, because I hear fromadults in relationships like I'm
with somebody, I'm in thisrelationship, but I feel lonely
all the time.
Michaela (16:34):
Yeah, that can be hard .
Well, so we're talking aboutloneliness and we're talking
about, you know, isolatingourselves and things like that.
I also think that you know thatloneliness is not to be
confused with, like the idea oflike solitude, right, and
(16:57):
someone who likes their alonetime, okay, to to enjoy being by
yourself, but you know, it's avoluntary choice to be on your
own, but those people are alsostill maintaining positive
social connection during thetimes that they choose to Mm-hmm
(17:21):
.
Laura (17:22):
Yeah, when we are choosing to spend time alone,
that doesn't mean we have to belonely in that moment.
Sometimes that's self-care,right.
Sometimes that's prioritizingourself and giving ourselves
some time to gather our thoughtsor to journal or to just
(17:43):
experience nature.
Go for going for a walk, doingsomething you know, exercising,
doing something that is alone.
Between solitude and loneliness, like I think loneliness is an
ache, it's a feeling ofisolation that is bigger than
(18:06):
just like um is bigger than thanjust I'm on my own, I'm eating
dinner alone and it's awkward orsomething.
Yeah, disconnect, yeah, it'sdisconnection.
And you know it's even in as atherapist, like in the
therapeutic world, 50%, at least50% of the outcomes in therapy
(18:32):
depend on the therapeuticrelationship.
So it's that connection, thatrelationship, that actually
makes therapy work.
It's that because that's whatboosts development, that's what
allows for development to happen, is when you can be connected,
be co-regulated, be in a momentwhere you're seen and witnessed
(18:57):
and you're heard and you'revalued and you're validated.
And that sense of not beingalone, that sense of being
together, is really where a lotof the work is happening.
Michaela (19:09):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, Allowing yourself to bevulnerable and not be judged,
and building connection andforging that.
It may be possible that I canbe vulnerable with others and
not be judged as well, so thenthat brings them to feel like
(19:29):
they can forge other positiveconnections and with other
people in the real world and andbuild on those and and and have
good outcomes.
Yeah.
Laura (19:41):
Yeah, and so you know, when it comes to like, why we
isolate ourselves.
We have that defense mechanism,but we also have society and
like the culture right now andthe way that the world is set up
.
You know like we get everythingdelivered.
We don't talk to the gross likethe checkout person at the
(20:06):
grocery store, the cashier.
We don't.
We get, we do self-checkout.
You know we order everythingonline.
Um, we work from home.
We've sometimes we go to schoolat home.
We're really in this community,we're lacking community.
Michaela (20:23):
I know that's one of the things that you know we've
my husband and I have talkedabout too is like and I think
like he grew up in a small townwhere everybody knows everybody,
and I think that like being inthe city now, like you go to a
birthday party and you know alot of the time nobody's talking
to each other, like nobody.
Everybody kind of does theirown things that's on their phone
(20:46):
.
Everybody feels awkward and soeven when we're together, we're
not together.
Laura (20:54):
Yeah, we almost go.
We go out of our way to avoidinteracting, right, we go out of
our way to not have thatconnection with people.
We really isolate ourselvesbecause sometimes it can be
uncomfortable.
I think we've learned, we've,we've forgotten these skills,
right, like if you don't use it,you lose it.
(21:15):
And I think so many thingschanged during COVID we're still
seeing the results of that,where some things never changed
back, some things never wentback to quote, unquote normal or
the way things were before,because of businesses, because
of industry, because of the waythings shifted in our, in our
work culture, in our homeenvironment.
(21:37):
Like we stayed home and we kindof forgot.
We didn't flex that muscle fora long time, we didn't exercise
that social muscle for a longtime, so we kind of forgot how
to do it.
Michaela (21:49):
Yeah Well, and some people have gone to work
remotely and they're terrifiedto return back to work.
There's so many benefits ofworking from home outside of the
social piece of things likethat, like having to go back to
work.
You know, it's not even enoughpull to be social to go back
(22:12):
right To enjoy being aroundother people, to hang out and
chat at lunchtime, whatever,like that's not a big enough
draw that they want to go backto work.
Laura (22:23):
Well, and you know, we think, oh, I connect with people
on social media or I connectwith people via text or whatever
, but that's not the same.
It's not the same thing.
But our world is sort of set upin this way, where we stay home
and we maybe look at each other.
It's like we're looking througheach other's windows but we're
(22:46):
not really in each other's lives, right Well?
Michaela (22:52):
and I think that you get the highlight reel, and so
you make up a lot of you, youmake up a lot of you, fill in
the blanks, right, like, and sothey have it all together.
Things must be so great where,like, if you were actually
connecting, you would know thegood and the bad things, that
the things that are hard plusthe things that are going
awesome.
And you're not getting that.
(23:13):
And I think about, like youknow, we talk a lot about
scrolling and people just getsucked into scrolling while
they're searching for oxytocin,they're searching for connection
, and the reason you get stuckscrolling and scrolling is
scrolling is because you arenever meeting that need for
connection.
Laura (23:32):
Yeah, we're never really getting our needs met in that
way.
So we keep looking and keep andwe're kind of doing the same
thing over and over but we'renot getting a better result.
And I think you know, when itcomes to like, okay, what do we
do?
You know, how do we stopisolating ourselves?
Like, how do we, how do weshift away from that?
(23:55):
Like I think we have to putourselves out there.
One of my goals this year wasto be more social, and so I have
a time like, instead of sendinga text, like I make a phone
call and I say like, hey, howare you?
Whatever?
Like, if I'm on my way to work,instead of listening to a
podcast, like I'll make a phonecall and reach out to a friend
who maybe I haven't talked to ina while and maybe I have 15
(24:17):
minutes or whatever, but that's15 minutes of connection.
And then I always feel betterafter every single time I do
that.
I feel better, um, evenunderstand why people.
Michaela (24:30):
I'm like I don't get it, like I'd rather just talk to
somebody than send a message orlike whatever.
I feel like I can get my pointacross easier, like it just
feels better to make a phonecall.
I never really understood, like, why people just text all the
time.
Laura (24:48):
I think because we found that we can maybe multitask um,
we can do too many things atonce.
Like this illusion ofmultitasking by like, oh, I'm
sending a text and then I'mstill like cooking dinner or I'm
still talking to somebody else,I'm having multiple
conversations with multiplepeople at a time and, you know,
(25:08):
it's like it's this efficiencybut and it's just like this
quick sort of almost.
Michaela (25:17):
But is it, though?
Like I feel like I I'm maybeI'm just really bad at this, but
like I feel like more and more,when I just send messages,
people don't.
I don't, I I don't, maybe I'mnot a great communicator that
way, but like I feel like themessage gets misconstrued or I
leave out important details ofwhat someone might need to know.
(25:39):
And if I just called them, theycould have asked the follow-up
questions and I could, and thenbe done faster.
Is it really more efficient?
Or are we just, you know,causing more confusion?
And like people don't thinkthat, they think that we're mad
at them because of because wesaid it in a way that had tone
or something, you know?
Laura (26:00):
Yeah, I totally agree with everything you're saying.
I think you're absolutely right.
And it's this facade andillusion that we can stay
connected with all these peoplevia just text messages or apps
or whatever.
That's just, it's flat, nottrue.
We are fooling ourselves.
Michaela (26:16):
Yeah.
Or like we send a text and then, like we realize that they
never messaged us back and thenlike, oh, they must be mad at me
, right, like I don't know.
I just feel like there's waymore opportunity for like
disconnect in in that way, andso that could be leading us to
feeling frustrated or isolatedbecause people don't have the
(26:39):
time to respond back in a quick,timely manner or whatever, and
so then we feel more frustrated.
We feel like they don't love usor they don't care about us
because they didn't answer ourmessage you know, they didn't
like our post on Facebook and sothey must be mad at me or they
must not like me.
Laura (26:57):
I think that's exactly what happens and I think that
contributes to this feeling ofloneliness, like I'm texting
somebody and they're not textingme back, or you know I posted
something and nobody'sresponding, like I, you know, if
those are the ways that you'rereaching out, like you won't get
your needs met.
And so in order to get ourneeds met and actually start
(27:19):
connecting again, we have to goout into the world.
We have to do it, even thoughit's hard.
Yeah, get past the anxiety andthe dread of going to a social
event and just go and, you know,interact with people in real
life, even if it's, you know,just inviting your friends over
(27:41):
for dinner or inviting them outto go, you know, have a lunch,
or just connecting with anyone.
Some of my friends and I we dolike a happy hour once a quarter
and we just we always scheduleit, we make sure it's on the
calendar and we can connect oncea quarter, and it because our
lives get so busy and it's sohard and we have so many excuses
(28:04):
, but it's like, no, putting iton the calendar.
Once a quarter we're going tomeet for happy hour, like, even
if it's something small, likethat, if you have two or three
people that you're doing thatwith like.
Then you're getting some intoin-person, face-to-face
connection, like once a week,yeah.
Michaela (28:27):
Well, and I know that there's a lot of you know
concerns for, like people thatare post like college age, move
to a new city, or like all myfriends I, maybe, I maybe I've
lived here for a long time andmy friends have all moved away
and meeting friends in like ourthirties and forties and fifties
, whatever, like that can bereally hard, and some of you
(28:50):
know some of these people feellike they do try to put
themselves out there and itdoesn't seem to work, or they
they didn't make any real likegood connections and so then
they still find themselvesisolated.
Do you have any suggestions forpeople who are in that
situation?
Laura (29:08):
Yeah, you know, I think there's a way to use the apps
for good.
There's a lot of like in-personmeetups that you can find.
A lot of times there are likeneighborhood meetups or like in
some of the groups that I'veseen on Facebook they'll have.
Like I think there's one calledlike moms and mimosas or like
(29:30):
you know, like Arizona girlshang out or whatever.
Like there's all thesedifferent people who are
connecting and setting these up.
We just have to kind of putourselves out there and go and
if we don't make a connection,not to be discouraged yeah, like
I think that's the biggest partis we can use the apps that we
have.
We go and put ourselves in thatposition, put ourselves out
(29:52):
there, go out and do the thing.
Go to the employee luncheon, goto the you know new people, you
know, and then if you don't getwhat you want out of that, like
it's okay and you can try again.
It doesn't say anything aboutyou that the connection wasn't
made.
I think that's important toremember too.
Michaela (30:16):
Yeah, I mean, I think I've seen so many of those posts
on Facebook where someone'slike I just moved here and
looking for friends, and thenall these people like say, yeah,
let's be friends, let's befriends.
I have kids your age, whateverLike, and I don't know if any
like does anything actuallyhappen.
Do people actually followthrough on those things?
(30:38):
You know?
Laura (30:41):
Yeah, I think that's a good question.
I that's a good bit of researchto find out.
I'm interested to see if thosecoffee chats or those like play
dates or you know gettinginvolved in your children's
school, like in the PTA, goingto the, you know, choir concert,
(31:02):
going to the kids sports events, going to those things and
striking up a conversationinstead of sitting on your phone
.
So, like that's, another pieceof advice is get off your phone,
put your phone away.
Michaela (31:14):
Yeah, it's just safety behavior, though.
It's just like averting youreyes or not looking at people,
or like looking like sittingwith your arms crossed and
trying to avoid eye contact.
All of those things are going.
They're safety behaviors.
You're trying to protectyourself, but what you're really
doing is sending nonverbal cuesthat you don't want to talk to.
Anybody.
Nobody's going to want toapproach you if you don't look
(31:35):
approachable.
Right, you have to be mindfulof your nonverbal communication.
That could be getting in yourway and you're trying to make
yourself feel comfortable, butit might not be working out so
well for you.
The other thing that I tellpeople is like start a hobby, go
play pickleball.
Go go to knitting, find aknitting thing, go to like what
(31:58):
do you like to do?
There's, you know, go hiking,meet people in the things that
you like to do, and if you'redoing things that you enjoy,
maybe the people that are likeyou will also find you.
Laura (32:12):
I think that's great advice.
And going out and doing thingsin person, talking to the server
at the restaurant, talking tothe cashier at the grocery store
, like saying hey, how are you?
And you know saying I'm doinggood, you know what, what's your
day like today, or you knowjust like engaging in more of a
(32:32):
conversation than just avoidingthe conversation entirely is
really helpful and likesometimes you can walk away
feeling really good, like havinga really good conversation,
like walk away with a smile.
It'll make you feel fulfilled,it can make you feel like you're
more connected in general.
Michaela (32:51):
And it's a super low stakes practice too, like I mean
, think about that, like justtalking to your server, talking
to the grocery person checkingyou out, like that is low stakes
, you know you're never going toprobably see that person again
or you know you may rarely seethem, right Like you're not
going to, you're not outanything, and you can practice
(33:13):
being able to feel moreconfident in communicating with
people.
Laura (33:17):
Yeah, I love that.
Low stakes practice, I think,is really important.
And you know, when we are goingto the dog park with our dogs,
when we are walking in ourneighborhood for our afternoon
walk, like, take out ourheadphones, put the, put the
phone away, put the headphonesaway, really experience the
world around you and you willstart to feel more connected
(33:39):
with yourself too.
Like, I think that's one thingthat we don't necessarily think
about.
But our connection to ourselfis what starts all of this.
Our own sense of securitywithin ourself and our own
thoughts and our own attachmentto ourselves and our own needs
and our confidence.
Our confidence, our ability toget our needs met, our ability
(34:00):
to be successful, our sense ofour capacity to tolerate the
world All of those thingsimprove when we start with a
connection to ourself.
And that means getting to knowourselves too and really
dropping in and thinking likewhat do I care about?
What are my values, what'simportant to me, what do I enjoy
(34:21):
?
Michaela (34:22):
You know we have to take some risks and be a little
vulnerable in order to movethrough the loneliness and the
disconnection and move intoconnection and happiness again
yeah, I was reading somethinginteresting and it said that you
(34:43):
know, people who aren't lonelyor like on their own, who hang
out with people who are lonelyor like spend a lot of time with
people who are lonely, are moreare likely to become lonely or
start feeling more lonely.
Do you think that's?
Laura (34:58):
true, that's interesting.
I mean I could see how thatmight be true from the
perspective of the defensivenessthat comes from a person who's
isolating.
Like if a person who isdefending against connection and
is trying to stay alone andstay isolated and stay in that
(35:19):
safe zone of disconnection, thenthey're going to push you away,
they might make you feel lessconnected and then you start to
get those feel those samefeelings of like the sense of
loneliness, kind of like what wetalked about, where you could
be in a relationship withsomebody but feel really lonely.
Yeah, that was reallyinteresting.
(35:40):
That is interesting that isinteresting.
Michaela (35:54):
So I mean, when we say we say we haven't done a good
job of these things likeespecially with like connecting
with our kids or our significantother, how do we start to like
repair that?
Right, Because we've alreadydeveloped in our kids, for
example, that defense againstattachment and things like that,
and you know we might bepushing against them already
being disconnected.
You know, I hear so much, likeI said, that these kids just
(36:15):
stay in their rooms and theydon't want to leave their rooms
and that's how they connect withtheir friends, and then we feel
really bad because they don'treally want to hang out with us
and we keep trying to get themto do the things like.
How do we start pulling themout of that?
Laura (36:30):
yeah, it's tough when we're in habits, right, because
we have to change those habitsand the first thing to know is
that you just have to start.
You start doing one thing onetime and then you do it again,
and then you do it again andthen it becomes a habit, right?
So making a change requiresaction, requires us to put
(36:55):
ourselves out there one time,see what happens If it doesn't
go well, we don't getdiscouraged, we try it again.
We say, okay, I'm going toinvite my kid down to make a
pizza with me.
I'm going to invite them to,you know, watch a show and I'm
(37:15):
going to try to talk to themafter and see how it goes.
I'm going to knock on theirdoor and come into their room
and be like, hey, what are youdoing?
What's up with you?
Like how, how was day?
I'm going to just startinteracting on a different level
and I'm going to be patient andI'm going to make sure that,
(37:36):
even though I'm discouraged, I'mgoing to try to do it anyway.
Michaela (37:39):
Yeah, I like that.
I think that that's like suchgood practical advice, because
there's so many people that arestruggling with trying to
connect with their teenagers andthey're like, oh, it's just
hormones, like I don't know, butreally, like this is something
that like is so easy to do, andso, like I think the big thing
(38:01):
is is like fighting against yourown like internal discomfort.
When they're irritated abouthaving to do it, you know that's
right.
They're like go away and you'relike normally.
You're like, fine, fine, I'mout of here, right, like I don't
have to do right, instead,you're going to sit with this
discomfort and be like, yeah, no, I'm not going to go anywhere,
(38:22):
I'm just going to hang out here,I'm just trying to talk, like,
and it's going to feel reallyawkward, I think.
Laura (38:29):
Yeah, it likely will feel awkward, but eventually they'll
get used to it and you'll getused to it.
Um, but that's the thing.
It's a vulnerability and we'reputting ourselves out there and
that we're taking a risk, andthat's okay to do.
Michaela (38:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I know it makes me thinkabout like my littles and when
they're mad, and that's okay todo.
Yeah, I know it makes me thinkabout like my littles and when
they're mad and that angercreates disconnection and they
yell at you and they're like Ihate you, like you're the worst,
or like you know I don't loveyou or something.
Right there's, they're mad,they're trying to.
You know they're, they'refeeling their stuff and you know
(39:07):
we feel horrible in that moment.
You know we just don't feelgood and then we internalize.
We can choose to internalizethat or we can recognize that
like it's really not about us,about whatever's going on for
them, and being able to sit inthat discomfort is hard but and
it's uncomfortable, but likethey don't really feel that way,
(39:30):
they don't really hate us, likeno, they just are having a
moment.
And when we can separateourselves from those like
negative feelings that it givesus, then we can, we can move
through those interactions a loteasier.
Laura (39:44):
And that goes back to sort of a mindfulness exercise,
right To be mindful of, likenote taking note like, okay,
that hurt my feelings and I canstill be.
Okay, I can still move throughthis, I can still be in
caregiver mode, I can still bein partner mode, because it's
the same with, like an adult whopushes you away or who rejects
(40:06):
you.
When you feel rejected, you cansay I feel this way, this hurts
my feelings and I can still dothis thing.
Michaela (40:14):
Right.
Laura (40:15):
I don't have to go with that.
I don't have to do the thingthat my feelings are telling me
to do, which is probably toisolate and run away.
Right, I can actually say that,hurt my feelings, you know, and
look for the repair.
Michaela (40:30):
Yeah, and then vent about it to your friends later.
Exactly.
Laura (40:35):
That's exactly right, and so that makes you feel
connected and makes you feelbetter, because we've got
someone to commiserate with andco-sign on our pain and our rage
, and that makes a bigdifference.
But we have to seek thatconnection in the first place.
Michaela (40:56):
Yeah, this is so interesting I know, I think so
too.
Laura (40:59):
It took us in a lot of different directions that I
didn't expect.
And yeah, I mean, I thinkthat's a good place to end it
for today with just encouragingeveryone to start thinking about
how they can make oneconnection a week, just one a
week, do something differentlyso they can feel a tiny bit more
connected and see where thatleads them.
(41:21):
That's a great question, okay,well, well, thank you so much
and thank you for listening towhy am I like this.
If you like our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
your favorite podcast platform,follow the show and share it
with your friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, Laura Wood and
(41:42):
Michaela Beaver.
Our theme song is making endsmeet by Thick as Thieves, and a
special thanks to BenavieriCounseling and Active Healing
Psychiatric Services forsponsoring this show.
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