October 31, 2024 • 37 mins
After a childhood filled with playful scares from my father, I've found myself jumping at the sound of a simple balloon pop. Join us on "Why Am I Like This?" as Mishayla and I delve into our personal experiences with fear and the startling responses that followed us from innocent childhood pranks to more serious trauma-induced reactions. Michaela shares her journey from a shocking high school event that left a lasting impact on her nervous system, influencing how she perceives safety in everyday situations. Our conversation reveals the rapid-fire processes of the brain's affective and sensory channels, highlighting how the amygdala often overrides cognitive assessment in triggering fear responses.
We unravel the intricate workings of the nervous system, exploring the balance between the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems essential for staying grounded. Recognizing how trauma—whether from significant events or mundane experiences—can foster hypervigilance, we emphasize timely trauma processing. Techniques such as EMDR come into play, presenting pathways to desensitizing heightened responses. Through relatable examples, like the universal fear of spiders or the modern-day active shooter drills, we illustrate how perceptions shape our threat responses and impact the long-term state of our nervous systems.
Our exploration moves toward managing anxiety and overcoming phobias, likening them to an allergy of the mind. Not every fear reflects an actual danger, and understanding this distinction is crucial. We discuss techniques to regain control, such as controlled breathing and cognitive exercises, offering a toolkit to bring the cognitive brain back into play. For those dealing with severe anxiety disorders, we underscore the importance of professional guidance, presenting practical strategies to ground oneself and activate the parasympathetic nervous system. From challenging negative thoughts to exploring the "window of tolerance," we offer insights into finding stability and competence in the face of fear.
Laura's Free Course on Emotional Development and Regulation:
https://benavieri.com/neuroception-sign-up/
This show is sponsored by:
Core Self
Benavieri Counseling & Coaching
www.benavieri.com
Active Healing Psychiatric Services
www.activehealingpsych.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura (00:03):
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:13):
And I'm Michaela Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Laura (00:17):
So, M, why are we doing this podcast?
Michaela (00:21):
I am so glad that you asked.
Today is a spooky podcast aboutwhy we are so frightened, and
we are doing this podcast tohelp you understand yourself a
little bit better how the thingsthat you learned about yourself
in the world and childhood arestill affecting you today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
things about ourselves that wemight wonder about, like why am
(00:42):
I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
Why are my thoughts so negative?
Laura (00:52):
Why do I feel like I have to fix everything all the
time?
Yes, and today we're talkingabout fear.
We are going to try to answerthe following questions why do I
feel so jumpy, why are spidersso scary and how do I overcome
my fears?
So let's get into it.
Why are we so jumpy?
Michaela (01:13):
This is a good question.
So I think that there'smultiple answers to this.
I can tell you why I'm so jumpy.
So when I was growing up as achild, my dad loved to jump out
and scare us, specifically me, Ifeel like I feel like I was
targeted because I'm kind of aneasy target, and he would jump
(01:34):
out of random places, likearound the corner.
He would literally hide in acloset oh no and scare you.
He thought it was so funny,funny.
And now I like I was literallyat a birthday party and a
balloon popped and I literallyjumped out of my skin and I
swear that this is because mydad um, he loved scaring people
(01:57):
and it wasn't like a bad thing,it was all in fun, but like my
nervous system responded to itso strongly that now I like get
like frightened of like my ownshadow sometimes.
Oh my gosh.
Laura (02:12):
So you are basically trained that somebody is going
to jump out and scare you at anymoment of any day, and now your
nervous system is just superhypervigilant.
Michaela (02:23):
Yes, I think so, and the funny thing is is my kids
love to scare me too.
Laura (02:28):
That's funny.
My kids love to scare mebecause I'm also so jumpy.
Why are you so jumpy?
I'm jumpy because I have likePTSD from an event that happened
when I was in high school and Iam so like I have this hyper
startle response where I alwaysfeel like somebody's like
(02:49):
sneaking up on me and if someoneI can know you're in the room
and happen and like turn andlook at you and see you and be
startled by you, even though Iknow that you're in the room,
I've known you, were there thewhole time.
It's so crazy I just getstartled so easily.
I could totally.
I think about maybe likehypnotizing myself out of this
(03:13):
or something Like I need to getinto hypnosis to see if I can
make myself not jumpy anymore.
But I'm super, super startlyand my kids think it's hilarious
and they jump out at me all thetime.
Mm, hmm.
They just they just know it's somean what they're doing to me
and that's okay.
It's, it's really funny Usually.
Michaela (03:36):
Once you get over the initial like I'm scared moment,
you're liable to get punched orkicked or something that
literally happened as a kid ableto get punched or kicked or
something that literallyhappened as a kid.
So my brother and I don'tremember this story for whatever
reason, but my brother jumpedout of the closet and scared me
and apparently like I reactedand like pushed him or kicked
him or something and I was I waslegit scared and like yeah, I
(04:00):
feel bad about it now because Ilike don't remember doing that,
but yeah, they loved scaringpeople, I guess.
So trauma is a cause of thatand so hearing about you know
that.
How does that affect people'snervous systems?
Laura (04:21):
Yeah, so we have.
Our nervous system is gearedtowards determining what's safe
and what's dangerous.
Right?
So we have these channels ofinformation processing our
affective channel, our sensorychannel and our cognitive
channel and each of those has ajob to do.
They take in information andhelp our processing, help us
process that information todetermine whether or not
(04:45):
something is safe or dangerous.
Now, our cognitive channeldoesn't really do that as much,
which is why we get scared ofsomething that's not really that
scary, like our kid or, youknow, your dad jumping out of
the closet or whatever.
But our affect and sensorychannels are really hardwired
for safety and danger.
That's.
Their only job is to determineif you're going to die or not,
(05:09):
and so yeah, so it's veryinteresting.
Michaela (05:13):
I love that you brought this up, because you
know our brains, the informationis coming to us really quickly
and that's why we, you know,jump back before we even
recognize that it's a snake onthe ground or whatever it is.
We are nervous system.
Those sensory information isgoing straight to the amygdala,
(05:33):
or maybe it's going to thethalamus Right or I think before
.
Yeah, it's going in, it'sgetting, it's getting recognized
, but sometimes it's goingstraight to you know those
centers, before our brain evenrecognize, in that memory center
, in that thought center, what'sgoing on, right?
Laura (05:51):
Yeah, so it's coming in the lower part of our brain, the
rear part of our brain, solower in the back, basically our
brainstem.
It's coming in there and thenthat's where our limbic system
lives, which our amygdala is inthere, and our amygdala controls
our emotional response.
So our amygdala is what's goingto react to the emotional
(06:15):
information before we actuallycan think about it.
So by the time it gets to thetop of our brain or the center
of our brain, the front of ourbrain, that's when we can
actually think through what justhappened and realize that we
got scared for no reason or wegot scared of something that's
not really dangerous.
So we pick up the feeling ofthe danger way before we
(06:40):
actually have the thoughts aboutwhy it's dangerous.
And so, like, if you hearsomething in the distance, you
might just get this like jolt ofkind of fear, like this flood
of adrenaline, and you might noteven know what it's, what is
related to it.
But it's just because you heardsomething really quick, like
that, you didn't even clock aslike something to think through.
Michaela (07:03):
Sure, yeah, Like oh, man, I forgot to turn in my
homework.
All of a sudden you're like Ifeel like I forgot something and
then like, oh, that's what itwas.
Laura (07:15):
Right, you have this sense, this affect, this feeling
that something's off.
And so our brain is picking upon all these like micro clues
all the time, and that'shappening so fast that we don't
even recognize like whatinformation we're picking up.
We just know that it'ssomething's happening.
And so when we think about fear, the fear is a response to the
(07:42):
stimuli.
So we have the stimulihappening, it goes into the back
of our brain and our brain islike, oh, this is dangerous.
So then it activates all thesechemical reactions that trigger
adrenaline and cortisol and allof the things that I need in
order to not die, like my heartrate will go fast and my
breathing will get heavy and youknow I'll, I'll have like a
(08:03):
flood of blood flow to mymuscles and so that I might get
warm right or flushed orwhatever.
So all of those things are theresponse to the stimuli and that
feeling of fear is what tellsus hey, get out.
Like this is dangerous, we'vegot to run.
And so that jump is literallyour body reacting to that
chemical flood that is occurring, and then it gives us the
(08:27):
ability to get away and flee,because our first fight or
flight reaction is actuallyflight.
So in a hierarchy, like itworks in order.
If you can't run, then you'llfight, but running away, fleeing
flight, is the first responsethat we have to any kind of
(08:48):
danger.
Michaela (08:49):
Right.
And when you think about thelimbic system, you think about
like you know thosedocumentaries of, like the
Serengeti and the.
You know the animals.
Once they sense danger, what dothey do?
They have a limbic system justlike us, and so they run right.
So that's exactly what we'refeeling in those situations.
Laura (09:10):
That's exactly right.
This is our what some peoplecall our reptilian brain.
It's our brain that is theoldest.
It is our brain that we've hadthe longest as a living being.
Like, from an evolutionperspective, it's the part of
our brain that evolved first andhas stayed really, really sharp
(09:31):
in its same skills.
It hasn't changed in what it'sdesigned to do, which is to just
keep us safe, keep us fromdying, and so when we have a
threat, we startle.
Now, why does PTSD cause you tohave a startle response for a
long time after the event isover?
That's where you've got, likeyour maladaptively stored
(09:52):
information, so PTSD will.
Post-traumatic stress disordercomes with a set of symptoms
like flashbacks.
Hyper startle response comeswith a set of symptoms like
flashbacks.
A hyper startle response, thesense of time being lost, like
not realizing that it's nothappening now but that it
happened a long time ago.
(10:13):
Not really like having it feellike it was just yesterday, but
it was really like years agothat this thing happened.
Because it's so over activatingour limbic system, this content
, and it's really memories thatare activating it now, but the
memories are so connected to ourlimbic system that it activates
all of that stuff that it wouldactivate in the real situation
(10:34):
until that information has beenhealed and fully processed
through the center, the top, thefront of your brain, all of
that cognitive, making sense ofit, information that needs to
happen in order for us to thensettle back down.
So that's why, when we processthe information, like through
therapy or whatever that's whenwe don't we lose that startle
(10:56):
response and we don't have to beso scared all the time.
Michaela (11:00):
Yes, I think you said that really, really well and I
love that you touched on on whythat is happening and so healing
it can make it so that thatjumpy, startle response isn't
quite as you're not quite assensitive to things, right quite
(11:25):
as hypervigilant.
Laura (11:27):
So hypervigilance is an over arousal of your nervous
system, it's an over activationof your sympathetic nervous
system and in your, with yoursympathetic nervous system,
that's the one that activates inorder for you to run away and
it gives you all the energy andadrenaline and everything else.
And so we need to activate ourparasympathetic nervous system
to settle that down and kind ofbring us back to center, because
what we want is the perfectbalance between our sympathetic
(11:50):
and parasympathetic nervoussystems in order to feel safe
and stable, and that's reallywhere they're working together
the best.
But an overactivation of eitherwill send you into one of those
reactions.
Michaela (12:04):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and you know, our
bodies are really smart andthey're designed to keep us safe
, like you said.
And so this isn't a bad thing,right, and it's actually a very
helpful thing, and it'snecessary to be able to
recognize, like, when there arethings that are dangerous or
(12:25):
when you did go throughsomething traumatic.
You know it's your brain's wayof helping to try to protect you
.
But these things happen for areason and it can make it hard
if you don't get the healingthat you need in the time.
So if you have a traumaticevent, it's usually better to
(12:47):
try to work through those things, you know, sooner than later,
right, so that you can try toprevent that thing from getting
stored and not and not heal,right?
Laura (12:57):
Yeah, if you can heal the event in real time, meaning
like within a year of ithappening, within like within
nine or within 90 days is best,but like if you can heal that
within a even a year of ithappening, then you're far less
likely to have a long-termconsequence, a long-term result.
Because your brain is what itneeds to do is it needs to make
(13:20):
sense of this trauma, it needsto make sense of whatever
happened to you that was soscary and dangerous, and because
your brain thought I'm going todie, but then you didn't die.
And so what's going to happen isyour brain's going to replay
that over and over in the formof flashbacks, and what it's
also going to do is it's goingto try to make it so that that
(13:40):
never happened in the firstplace, because it gets stuck in
the not realizing that youdidn't die yet.
Like it, sometimes our brain'sprocess just gets stuck on.
It's like a light switch and weturn on this light switch, and
so this process of survivalcontinues to go and go, and go
and go and go and it doesn'tfully realize that the process
(14:02):
is over and that you didn't die,that you're safe now.
So what it needs to do is itneeds to close that loop, it
needs to finish that process sothat it recognizes that you're
safe now and that you didn't die, and that these things happen
and we can't always control orprevent them.
And that's the hardest thing Ithink about.
(14:23):
It is that we can't alwaysprevent dangerous things from
happening, even though we wantto Sure.
Michaela (14:28):
Yeah, so I didn't.
My jumpiness didn't come from atraumatic event per se.
But you know, would EMDR helpme desensitize my jumpiness?
Laura (14:43):
I think so.
I have a lot of faith inadaptive information processing
and I have a lot of faith in ourbrain and I trust your brain to
be able to work out what itneeds to work out and so to
recognize that you don't have tostartle that big anymore.
One, because the first time youget startled like that, it is
kind of like a trauma, right,even though it's not dangerous,
(15:05):
like it's a trauma from theperspective of you didn't know
it wasn't Right.
Michaela (15:11):
I did not know what was jumping out of the closet at
me.
Laura (15:15):
Right.
So I hear from kids often whoare going to school these days
where they have their activeshooter drills.
I think I've brought this upbefore but they get traumatized
by these drills because theydon't know it's a drill.
There are some times when theyare just told that they have to
go under their desk or they haveto do all the things.
(15:37):
I don't know exactly what thesedrills entail, but if you think
that there's an active shooterin your school, your body is
going to react like that's trueand so, just having had that
happen, the fear stays with you.
(15:59):
If you didn't know that at thetime, that counts as trauma,
because trauma is anything thatsends you into that fight or
flight, dissociative state thatrequires you to separate from
the present reality and justsurvive and not die in that
moment.
If there are things that havehappened to you that maybe were
(16:28):
benign, but you didn't know theywere benign at the time because
you're a little tiny kid, thosethings will stick in your
nervous system and they'll trainyou to be afraid.
Michaela (16:37):
Yeah.
So that makes me think why arespiders so scary?
Why?
Laura (16:44):
are spiders so scary?
Spiders are scary becausethey're gross and they're crawly
and they're fast and they comeout of nowhere and you can't
always see them.
And you can see one, and thenit hides underneath the
furniture and then you can'tfind it, but you know it's there
.
So those are the reasons whyspiders are so scary for me.
Michaela (17:05):
Yeah Well, my kids don't think spiders are scary
and they're literally likedigging in the dirt trying to
find spiders and they're likeit's a black widow.
It's a black widow and they runaway Right.
And they do get scared whenthey think it's like something
that is actually dangerous, thatcould cause them harm, but
until then they think it's fun.
That is actually dangerous,that could cause them harm, but
(17:26):
until then they think it's fun.
I think that's great.
Laura (17:29):
So one of the reasons why we think spiders- are scary
is because our moms thinkspiders are scary and because
our dads think spiders are scaryand because our older siblings
and whoever's raising us thinkspiders are scary.
So when we have someone elsetelling us what to be afraid of,
we'll we're creating that fearin our kids.
(17:50):
So, like um, our kids learn howto be afraid of certain things
that we're afraid of, and soit's really important, as an
adult at raising kids, to try tofocus on calm, confident
leadership, not to pass ourfears down onto our families.
Michaela (18:10):
Yeah, I heard somebody say this thing the other day
and I thought it was so good.
I'm going to repeat it Biologybecomes no, I'm sorry, Biography
becomes biology.
Laura (18:24):
Ooh that's really good.
Yeah, I thought more about that.
Michaela (18:27):
Yeah, so this is kind of like what you're talking
about.
So I think, like you know, youthink of epigenetics, right, but
I think too, you know, ourexperiences are causing those
genes to turn on and off.
Are the experiences of ourfamily are turning genes on and
off?
Right, but in this case, likeit's our environment, it's the
(18:49):
things that are going on aroundus, the things that we see, how
our parents react to things,turning into what's going on and
what's informing our nervoussystem.
Laura (18:59):
Yeah, that's right, it becomes our biology.
I have a story that I tell tokind of illustrate this.
I call it the restaurant story,but so you've heard it and you
know maybe this everybody onthis podcast has heard it,
because I've probably said itbefore.
But basically it's like pretendthat there's a little kid who
(19:20):
is going out to a restaurantwith their family and then, as
they're leaving, this little kidrealizes they forgot their
stuffed animal and runs backinto the store without their
parents realizing.
They run back into the store toget their stuffed animal and
their parents don't realize thatthey got out of the car and
then they drive away and theystart to leave the parking lot
(19:40):
before they realize that theyleft the little person.
So if that happened, well thenthis little child is going to be
really scared, feelingabandoned, like this kid just
got abandoned, right, like was.
Now it's this kid that has tofend for himself.
They have to take care ofthemselves Like they can't make
it.
On the street there's a littlekid, so in that moment that is a
(20:04):
traumatic event.
That child was just abandonedand it's dangerous.
It's a life or death situation,right?
Yeah, so that child now isgoing to encode and store every
single piece of sensoryinformation that it can access
in this moment as potentiallydangerous.
So, whatever the restaurantlooks like, the color of the
(20:27):
seats, the way it smells, thesounds that they hear, the
things that they taste, thethings that they touch, so what
they're doing, your nervoussystem in that moment of danger,
of like grave danger, isencoding all of these things
that now are going to signaldanger in the future.
Right, because it's going toprevent this from ever happening
(20:48):
again, even though 30 secondslater the mom comes running in
and it's like, oh my gosh, Ican't believe I didn't see you
get back in the car.
I love you, let's go to youknow, whatever, Right, well, and
and two.
Michaela (21:02):
Part of PTSD is sometimes that important pieces
of the events are not alwaysclear, because cortisol is toxic
to that part of the memorycenter of the brain that's
required for taking thosesnapshots.
Now, just like a red boothmakes you flash back to that
moment or feel dangerous, andyou, you know, you're not really
even sure you remember theoriginal event to begin with.
(21:24):
You just now know that redbooths are dangerous.
Laura (21:28):
Right.
So you only know those signals.
You don't know why.
You don't know why do I think ared booth is dangerous?
Or you might not even connectlogically that the red booth is
the thing that's triggering youto be scared.
You might just see it, yourbrain is just like, oh, that's
dangerous.
But it doesn't actually gothrough the process of telling
(21:49):
you I'm scared of this red boothbecause of this one time that
this happened.
It doesn't go through thatprocess because that process
takes too much time.
So what it's doing is it'sgoing to alert you to the danger
so that you run away and youget out of there.
And so the same is true forspiders.
If you have, it's not thespider, it's the reaction to the
(22:09):
spider.
If you have a spider on you andyou're a little kid and your
mom comes running out and islike, oh my gosh, that's so
scary and, like you know, freaksout about the spider, well now,
spiders make your mom freak out.
So they're a definite threat,right.
Michaela (22:27):
And I think it's the perception of whatever you and
your little kid brain sees it asright.
Like, if my perception is likeyou know, everybody's laughing
and joking and this doesn't seembad, then I'm not going to be
scared of spiders.
Like, right, it'd be funny,right?
If everybody reacts and Ibelieve, oh my gosh, I was
(22:47):
really about to die, spiders aregoing to kill me, then yeah,
we're going to be scared ofspiders.
Laura (22:53):
Yeah, and it also.
We might not realize this, butit's also the distress that your
parent being upset causes you.
So when our parents are reallyupset, that's a really dangerous
thing for a kid, because if theparent is losing control, that
means there's no one there tosave you.
There's no one there to takecare of you.
(23:14):
So when your parents are out ofcontrol and you're a kid,
that's really really, reallydangerous and scary.
And so if you grew up in ahouse where your parents were
often out of control they didn'thave control over themselves or
of others of you, you didn'thave control over yourself that
chronic toxic stress will createa PTSD response in you.
(23:37):
You will become hypervigilantbecause of that amount of stress
that you experienced.
Michaela (23:44):
Yes, absolutely.
I think that they're like it'snot a DSM diagnosis but there is
talk about you know thatcomplex developmental trauma
kind of thing, and so you'reabsolutely right.
It is constantly having thatelevation in cortisol which is
(24:04):
why you know people develop PTSDin childhood is just having
that chronic fight or fight andflight response activated.
Laura (24:14):
Yeah, they get that switch stuck on and it's really
hard to turn that off,especially because if this
environment doesn't change,you're not going to have a
reason to turn off this switchuntil you get out of that
environment into a safe one.
So if your family is in chaos alot of the time and your
parents aren't really in control, and chaos a lot of the time
(24:40):
and your parents aren't reallyin control, then that's that
toxic stress is a real danger.
Yeah, it's still dangerous toyou.
So you have to keep that stuffon.
You have to keep that responselevel on because you have to be
hyper aware.
You have to be hyper alertbecause you are the one who's in
charge of keeping yourself safe, which is too big a job for a
(25:00):
child to do.
Children can't handle that.
It's too much on their brains.
Michaela (25:06):
Yeah.
And so it makes me think tooabout, like, talking about
phobias.
And you know, why am I soscared of spiders?
It doesn't just have to bespiders, but I think that, in
general, you know, you have thisresponse whether it's a spider
(25:26):
or it's going to the grocerystore or it's, you know, public
speaking, whatever the thing is,you know, you know
thunderstorms it's.
It's the fact that your, your,your brain, is tied to emotional
responses, and so if you havean emotional response to
something, your brain says, ooh,this is important, we need to
(25:48):
pay attention to this.
And so then, now, every time weencounter similar situations,
our brain is reminding us ofthat thing and it's saying, hey,
you know, oh, remember, youknow you're not thinking about
this, but it remembers that whenyou gave that presentation,
that you got laughed at or youthought that the kids were
talking bad about you, and sothat's encoded in your brain
(26:10):
that, like, that's not safe,it's not, I'm not going to go do
a good job, this isn't for me.
And so then you start to havethat experience of having that
adrenaline fight and flightresponse, and then you avoid it
if you can, and that avoidancesays, oh, that made me feel
better.
So now I know that if I go dothis thing then I will feel
(26:33):
anxious, and that's notcomfortable, that's dangerous,
and if I avoid it then I'm safe,and so then that creates the
desire to avoid things that are,you know, dangerous, and so
then we become phobic of thatthing.
Laura (26:47):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's like the initial response
that we have to the event is thething that creates the phobia.
So, for example, we weretalking earlier about this fear
of something specific, like afear of spiders, like
arachnophobia, and how yourbrain encoded the information
(27:10):
when it first encountered thatspider.
So if the information requiredyour brain to go into fight or
flight, then you're going tohave that response every time.
It's like an allergy for yourbrain.
So when you have an allergy,you're not allergic to the thing
until after you encounter it.
So you encounter the thing andthen that's how you know you're
(27:31):
allergic, or that's how yourbody tells you that this is a
thing that it can't tolerate,and so it has this over
overactive histamine response tothis particular stimulus.
So the same is true for phobias.
So like, if you think of this,if you encounter this
information and your brain hasthis overreactive amygdala
response, then now it can turninto a phobia, because you are
(27:56):
going to continue to avoid itand your brain is going to keep
building it up, and you aregoing to continue to avoid it
and your brain is going to keepbuilding it up and you're going
to keep having this same cycleof intolerance for this thing.
So we want to remind ourselves,if you have a phobia and you
recognize that that phobia isunnecessary, like the thing
isn't really that dangerous orwhatever.
Like if it's public speakingand you have to do it anyway,
(28:18):
you can remind yourself like oh,this is just like an allergy,
it's like an allergy for mybrain that I'm having this fear
response because this fear isn'tactually telling me, like
because this thing's notactually dangerous.
Michaela (28:30):
Sure and your antihistamine and your EpiPen to
treat it is doing it anyways.
Laura (28:39):
Yeah, I can do it anyways, even though it's scary.
Michaela (28:43):
Yeah, allow yourself to feel a little nervous and
anxious about it, because youknow it's actually not dangerous
and that anxious response isnormal and it's not a bad thing.
We don't need to fight feelinganxiety when our heart races and
we get flushed and our musclesget tight and all those things.
(29:04):
That that doesn't mean alwaysthat there's something bad
happening, and so you canactually do some calming
techniques to calm your nervoussystem down so that you can give
yourself a chance to be able tointeract with those things and
I know we've talked a lot aboutthese things on the podcast
already.
But just taking a moment andbreathing and just allowing
(29:26):
yourself to slow your heart ratedown and let yourself get back
your brain, get back online,right, you know, when that
amygdala and the fight andflight response is going off,
our brain is not really workingthe way that it should, and so
we need to just take a breath,take a moment and and calm our
nervous system down, maybe bodyup, then top down, you know, so
(29:48):
we can think through it better.
Laura (29:51):
Yeah, when we are experiencing those reactions,
our cognitive processing part ofour brain is not online, it's
not operationally functioningthe way that it needs to in
order to be helpful.
So we want to re-engage ourcognitive brain.
So one way to do that is likecounting count backwards from 10
while you're breathing.
Making you know squares withyour hand while you're breathing
(30:16):
or you know doing something.
Including a cognitive functionlike a thought function can be
really helpful.
That's like a top-down approachto calming yourself down and
you're able to recognize oh, myamygdala was responding, but my
(30:37):
cognitive brain knows that thisisn't actually life or death.
I don't have to be so afraid,and I think sometimes we get
afraid of the anxiety in and ofitself.
I hear that all the time, andso one thing I say to people is
to remind yourself this isdifficult, it's not dangerous.
A little bit of anxiety is okay, it's a normal feeling, and so
(31:01):
we have to change the way wethink about these particular
events because, remember, thefear is about our reaction to
the event, it's not the eventitself.
So our reaction to the event isI feel like I'm going to die or
I believe that this is going tohurt me.
I believe that I'm going to beunsuccessful, so my thoughts and
(31:23):
beliefs can drive some of thatfear as well.
Michaela (31:27):
Absolutely.
Laura (31:29):
So challenging.
Those thoughts can be helpful.
Michaela (31:32):
Right, and we're not saying that if you have a panic
disorder or that you have aphobia that you go like
intentionally, do like prolongedexposure on your own of
anything Right, this is likereasonable.
I have a little bit of anxietyand I can calm my nervous system
down and I can tolerate it ofreaction to something.
(31:54):
You need to be working withsomeone as you walk that path of
exposing yourself to thesethings that make you nervous,
right.
Laura (32:04):
Yeah, there's an anxiety curve.
We don't want to have toolittle, because then we're shut
down and we're not responding toany stimuli, but we don't want
to have too much, because thenthat's going to give us panic.
So we want to dial it back alittle bit and get in that sweet
spot of I'm alert, I'm aware,I'm awake, but I'm also ready
(32:25):
and able and competent andcapable.
And in order to do that, wehave to be grounded in ourselves
and we can take control of ourbodies by breathing techniques.
That's like I have a choice, Ihave control, I can take on, I
can breathe and force myself toslow down and settle down.
(32:47):
That's showing your brain andbody that you are in control and
that you are safe in thismoment.
Michaela (32:52):
Right, absolutely.
You are literally activatingthat parasympathetic rest and
digest part of your body andyou're literally having your
body tell the brain oh wait,everything's cool down here,
right, like we're good.
And then you go oh wait, ok,we're not, we're not dying, our
heart's not racing, you know, wecan start digesting our food
(33:13):
again.
Laura (33:15):
Absolutely.
I like basic grounding skillslike touching the floor, like
putting putting your feet on thefloor, wiggling your toes in
your shoes, like recognizing,like I have freedom of movement,
I can control my body and whenI focus on my feet and my shoes,
I'm not focused on whatever I'mafraid of in that moment.
I'm able to shift my attentionand change my focus of attention
(33:37):
into something that is morehelpful and more readily
available to me than to thinkabout and to act on.
Then the fear is kind offlooding me with all these
chemicals.
Michaela (33:50):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that I use that a lot,now that we've talked about that
several times.
I use that a lot, like tellingpeople just wiggle their toes.
I like that.
You know you've said that likethat's typically not where
they're feeling the experiencein their body, right, and so
it's a good distraction and it'salso separate from kind of what
(34:11):
they're experiencing.
So I really like that and Ithink that even something I use
on myself sometimes when I'vejust had a long day and I'm like
okay, I'm, you know, I just gotto check back in with myself
and it helps, it makes adifference.
Laura (34:26):
So, as we go through all of these ways to overcome our
fears, what else can we do togive ourselves a little bit more
stability and safety when we'refeeling afraid?
Is there any other resourcesthat we can think?
Michaela (34:41):
of.
Well, I think that you know,definitely getting into a
therapist is key and workingthrough like what the original
kind of like traumaticexperience was or like trying to
like process through thosethings, but also like I think
medication can be a greatsupport for people who are not
(35:04):
are having trouble managing toget this under control right.
Like I think of the window oftolerance.
So some people come and they'relike I have literally tried
everything, like I've been intherapy for a year and like
these skills don't seem to bemaking a difference for me and I
kind of talked to them aboutlike the window of tolerance and
(35:24):
if we're, if we're up here likea 10 and our, our skills are
not going to help us until inthat particular person, they're
not going to help until we're abit lower Right, and so
sometimes adding a medication inor a supplement protocol or you
know something like that, tohelp kind of just calm the
nervous system down a bit sothat we can actually feel like
(35:46):
we're gaining some tractionwithin managing those
experiences that are reallychallenging for them.
So you know, if, if I see aspider and every time I see a
spider I'm, you know, a 10, Ican't and I can't do anything
but run away from it, then thatmight be a good chance for you
(36:06):
to try to try to look atsomething else, to see if, like
a medicine or supplement, couldbe helpful.
Laura (36:13):
Yeah, that's a good point.
So we've got breathingtechniques, grounding techniques
.
We can take back control bychallenging our thoughts and
challenging our beliefs, and wecan seek professional help if we
need to.
I think those are really goodways to help overcome your fears
(36:33):
.
So I think that's a good placeto end this spooky episode.
Michaela (36:37):
Yeah, Thanks for joining us on this Halloween
spooky, frightening episode.
I know I'm.
I was a little scared startingit.
Laura (36:46):
And we did it anyway.
And here we are.
Well, thank you for listeningto.
Why Am I Like this?
If you like our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
your favorite podcast platform,follow the show and share it
with your friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, laura Wood and
Michelle Beaver.
Our theme song is Making EndsMeet by Sickest Bees, and a
(37:10):
special thanks to BenegaryCounseling and Coaching and
Active Healing PsychiatricServices for sponsoring this
show.
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:13):
And I'm Michaela Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Laura (00:17):
So, M, why are we doing this podcast?
Michaela (00:21):
I am so glad that you asked.
Today is a spooky podcast aboutwhy we are so frightened, and
we are doing this podcast tohelp you understand yourself a
little bit better how the thingsthat you learned about yourself
in the world and childhood arestill affecting you today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
things about ourselves that wemight wonder about, like why am
(00:42):
I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
Why are my thoughts so negative?
Laura (00:52):
Why do I feel like I have to fix everything all the
time?
Yes, and today we're talkingabout fear.
We are going to try to answerthe following questions why do I
feel so jumpy, why are spidersso scary and how do I overcome
my fears?
So let's get into it.
Why are we so jumpy?
Michaela (01:13):
This is a good question.
So I think that there'smultiple answers to this.
I can tell you why I'm so jumpy.
So when I was growing up as achild, my dad loved to jump out
and scare us, specifically me, Ifeel like I feel like I was
targeted because I'm kind of aneasy target, and he would jump
(01:34):
out of random places, likearound the corner.
He would literally hide in acloset oh no and scare you.
He thought it was so funny,funny.
And now I like I was literallyat a birthday party and a
balloon popped and I literallyjumped out of my skin and I
swear that this is because mydad um, he loved scaring people
(01:57):
and it wasn't like a bad thing,it was all in fun, but like my
nervous system responded to itso strongly that now I like get
like frightened of like my ownshadow sometimes.
Oh my gosh.
Laura (02:12):
So you are basically trained that somebody is going
to jump out and scare you at anymoment of any day, and now your
nervous system is just superhypervigilant.
Michaela (02:23):
Yes, I think so, and the funny thing is is my kids
love to scare me too.
Laura (02:28):
That's funny.
My kids love to scare mebecause I'm also so jumpy.
Why are you so jumpy?
I'm jumpy because I have likePTSD from an event that happened
when I was in high school and Iam so like I have this hyper
startle response where I alwaysfeel like somebody's like
(02:49):
sneaking up on me and if someoneI can know you're in the room
and happen and like turn andlook at you and see you and be
startled by you, even though Iknow that you're in the room,
I've known you, were there thewhole time.
It's so crazy I just getstartled so easily.
I could totally.
I think about maybe likehypnotizing myself out of this
(03:13):
or something Like I need to getinto hypnosis to see if I can
make myself not jumpy anymore.
But I'm super, super startlyand my kids think it's hilarious
and they jump out at me all thetime.
Mm, hmm.
They just they just know it's somean what they're doing to me
and that's okay.
It's, it's really funny Usually.
Michaela (03:36):
Once you get over the initial like I'm scared moment,
you're liable to get punched orkicked or something that
literally happened as a kid ableto get punched or kicked or
something that literallyhappened as a kid.
So my brother and I don'tremember this story for whatever
reason, but my brother jumpedout of the closet and scared me
and apparently like I reactedand like pushed him or kicked
him or something and I was I waslegit scared and like yeah, I
(04:00):
feel bad about it now because Ilike don't remember doing that,
but yeah, they loved scaringpeople, I guess.
So trauma is a cause of thatand so hearing about you know
that.
How does that affect people'snervous systems?
Laura (04:21):
Yeah, so we have.
Our nervous system is gearedtowards determining what's safe
and what's dangerous.
Right?
So we have these channels ofinformation processing our
affective channel, our sensorychannel and our cognitive
channel and each of those has ajob to do.
They take in information andhelp our processing, help us
process that information todetermine whether or not
(04:45):
something is safe or dangerous.
Now, our cognitive channeldoesn't really do that as much,
which is why we get scared ofsomething that's not really that
scary, like our kid or, youknow, your dad jumping out of
the closet or whatever.
But our affect and sensorychannels are really hardwired
for safety and danger.
That's.
Their only job is to determineif you're going to die or not,
(05:09):
and so yeah, so it's veryinteresting.
Michaela (05:13):
I love that you brought this up, because you
know our brains, the informationis coming to us really quickly
and that's why we, you know,jump back before we even
recognize that it's a snake onthe ground or whatever it is.
We are nervous system.
Those sensory information isgoing straight to the amygdala,
(05:33):
or maybe it's going to thethalamus Right or I think before
.
Yeah, it's going in, it'sgetting, it's getting recognized
, but sometimes it's goingstraight to you know those
centers, before our brain evenrecognize, in that memory center
, in that thought center, what'sgoing on, right?
Laura (05:51):
Yeah, so it's coming in the lower part of our brain, the
rear part of our brain, solower in the back, basically our
brainstem.
It's coming in there and thenthat's where our limbic system
lives, which our amygdala is inthere, and our amygdala controls
our emotional response.
So our amygdala is what's goingto react to the emotional
(06:15):
information before we actuallycan think about it.
So by the time it gets to thetop of our brain or the center
of our brain, the front of ourbrain, that's when we can
actually think through what justhappened and realize that we
got scared for no reason or wegot scared of something that's
not really dangerous.
So we pick up the feeling ofthe danger way before we
(06:40):
actually have the thoughts aboutwhy it's dangerous.
And so, like, if you hearsomething in the distance, you
might just get this like jolt ofkind of fear, like this flood
of adrenaline, and you might noteven know what it's, what is
related to it.
But it's just because you heardsomething really quick, like
that, you didn't even clock aslike something to think through.
Michaela (07:03):
Sure, yeah, Like oh, man, I forgot to turn in my
homework.
All of a sudden you're like Ifeel like I forgot something and
then like, oh, that's what itwas.
Laura (07:15):
Right, you have this sense, this affect, this feeling
that something's off.
And so our brain is picking upon all these like micro clues
all the time, and that'shappening so fast that we don't
even recognize like whatinformation we're picking up.
We just know that it'ssomething's happening.
And so when we think about fear, the fear is a response to the
(07:42):
stimuli.
So we have the stimulihappening, it goes into the back
of our brain and our brain islike, oh, this is dangerous.
So then it activates all thesechemical reactions that trigger
adrenaline and cortisol and allof the things that I need in
order to not die, like my heartrate will go fast and my
breathing will get heavy and youknow I'll, I'll have like a
(08:03):
flood of blood flow to mymuscles and so that I might get
warm right or flushed orwhatever.
So all of those things are theresponse to the stimuli and that
feeling of fear is what tellsus hey, get out.
Like this is dangerous, we'vegot to run.
And so that jump is literallyour body reacting to that
chemical flood that is occurring, and then it gives us the
(08:27):
ability to get away and flee,because our first fight or
flight reaction is actuallyflight.
So in a hierarchy, like itworks in order.
If you can't run, then you'llfight, but running away, fleeing
flight, is the first responsethat we have to any kind of
(08:48):
danger.
Michaela (08:49):
Right.
And when you think about thelimbic system, you think about
like you know thosedocumentaries of, like the
Serengeti and the.
You know the animals.
Once they sense danger, what dothey do?
They have a limbic system justlike us, and so they run right.
So that's exactly what we'refeeling in those situations.
Laura (09:10):
That's exactly right.
This is our what some peoplecall our reptilian brain.
It's our brain that is theoldest.
It is our brain that we've hadthe longest as a living being.
Like, from an evolutionperspective, it's the part of
our brain that evolved first andhas stayed really, really sharp
(09:31):
in its same skills.
It hasn't changed in what it'sdesigned to do, which is to just
keep us safe, keep us fromdying, and so when we have a
threat, we startle.
Now, why does PTSD cause you tohave a startle response for a
long time after the event isover?
That's where you've got, likeyour maladaptively stored
(09:52):
information, so PTSD will.
Post-traumatic stress disordercomes with a set of symptoms
like flashbacks.
Hyper startle response comeswith a set of symptoms like
flashbacks.
A hyper startle response, thesense of time being lost, like
not realizing that it's nothappening now but that it
happened a long time ago.
(10:13):
Not really like having it feellike it was just yesterday, but
it was really like years agothat this thing happened.
Because it's so over activatingour limbic system, this content
, and it's really memories thatare activating it now, but the
memories are so connected to ourlimbic system that it activates
all of that stuff that it wouldactivate in the real situation
(10:34):
until that information has beenhealed and fully processed
through the center, the top, thefront of your brain, all of
that cognitive, making sense ofit, information that needs to
happen in order for us to thensettle back down.
So that's why, when we processthe information, like through
therapy or whatever that's whenwe don't we lose that startle
(10:56):
response and we don't have to beso scared all the time.
Michaela (11:00):
Yes, I think you said that really, really well and I
love that you touched on on whythat is happening and so healing
it can make it so that thatjumpy, startle response isn't
quite as you're not quite assensitive to things, right quite
(11:25):
as hypervigilant.
Laura (11:27):
So hypervigilance is an over arousal of your nervous
system, it's an over activationof your sympathetic nervous
system and in your, with yoursympathetic nervous system,
that's the one that activates inorder for you to run away and
it gives you all the energy andadrenaline and everything else.
And so we need to activate ourparasympathetic nervous system
to settle that down and kind ofbring us back to center, because
what we want is the perfectbalance between our sympathetic
(11:50):
and parasympathetic nervoussystems in order to feel safe
and stable, and that's reallywhere they're working together
the best.
But an overactivation of eitherwill send you into one of those
reactions.
Michaela (12:04):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and you know, our
bodies are really smart andthey're designed to keep us safe
, like you said.
And so this isn't a bad thing,right, and it's actually a very
helpful thing, and it'snecessary to be able to
recognize, like, when there arethings that are dangerous or
(12:25):
when you did go throughsomething traumatic.
You know it's your brain's wayof helping to try to protect you
.
But these things happen for areason and it can make it hard
if you don't get the healingthat you need in the time.
So if you have a traumaticevent, it's usually better to
(12:47):
try to work through those things, you know, sooner than later,
right, so that you can try toprevent that thing from getting
stored and not and not heal,right?
Laura (12:57):
Yeah, if you can heal the event in real time, meaning
like within a year of ithappening, within like within
nine or within 90 days is best,but like if you can heal that
within a even a year of ithappening, then you're far less
likely to have a long-termconsequence, a long-term result.
Because your brain is what itneeds to do is it needs to make
(13:20):
sense of this trauma, it needsto make sense of whatever
happened to you that was soscary and dangerous, and because
your brain thought I'm going todie, but then you didn't die.
And so what's going to happen isyour brain's going to replay
that over and over in the formof flashbacks, and what it's
also going to do is it's goingto try to make it so that that
(13:40):
never happened in the firstplace, because it gets stuck in
the not realizing that youdidn't die yet.
Like it, sometimes our brain'sprocess just gets stuck on.
It's like a light switch and weturn on this light switch, and
so this process of survivalcontinues to go and go, and go
and go and go and it doesn'tfully realize that the process
(14:02):
is over and that you didn't die,that you're safe now.
So what it needs to do is itneeds to close that loop, it
needs to finish that process sothat it recognizes that you're
safe now and that you didn't die, and that these things happen
and we can't always control orprevent them.
And that's the hardest thing Ithink about.
(14:23):
It is that we can't alwaysprevent dangerous things from
happening, even though we wantto Sure.
Michaela (14:28):
Yeah, so I didn't.
My jumpiness didn't come from atraumatic event per se.
But you know, would EMDR helpme desensitize my jumpiness?
Laura (14:43):
I think so.
I have a lot of faith inadaptive information processing
and I have a lot of faith in ourbrain and I trust your brain to
be able to work out what itneeds to work out and so to
recognize that you don't have tostartle that big anymore.
One, because the first time youget startled like that, it is
kind of like a trauma, right,even though it's not dangerous,
(15:05):
like it's a trauma from theperspective of you didn't know
it wasn't Right.
Michaela (15:11):
I did not know what was jumping out of the closet at
me.
Laura (15:15):
Right.
So I hear from kids often whoare going to school these days
where they have their activeshooter drills.
I think I've brought this upbefore but they get traumatized
by these drills because theydon't know it's a drill.
There are some times when theyare just told that they have to
go under their desk or they haveto do all the things.
(15:37):
I don't know exactly what thesedrills entail, but if you think
that there's an active shooterin your school, your body is
going to react like that's trueand so, just having had that
happen, the fear stays with you.
(15:59):
If you didn't know that at thetime, that counts as trauma,
because trauma is anything thatsends you into that fight or
flight, dissociative state thatrequires you to separate from
the present reality and justsurvive and not die in that
moment.
If there are things that havehappened to you that maybe were
(16:28):
benign, but you didn't know theywere benign at the time because
you're a little tiny kid, thosethings will stick in your
nervous system and they'll trainyou to be afraid.
Michaela (16:37):
Yeah.
So that makes me think why arespiders so scary?
Why?
Laura (16:44):
are spiders so scary?
Spiders are scary becausethey're gross and they're crawly
and they're fast and they comeout of nowhere and you can't
always see them.
And you can see one, and thenit hides underneath the
furniture and then you can'tfind it, but you know it's there
.
So those are the reasons whyspiders are so scary for me.
Michaela (17:05):
Yeah Well, my kids don't think spiders are scary
and they're literally likedigging in the dirt trying to
find spiders and they're likeit's a black widow.
It's a black widow and they runaway Right.
And they do get scared whenthey think it's like something
that is actually dangerous, thatcould cause them harm, but
until then they think it's fun.
That is actually dangerous,that could cause them harm, but
(17:26):
until then they think it's fun.
I think that's great.
Laura (17:29):
So one of the reasons why we think spiders- are scary
is because our moms thinkspiders are scary and because
our dads think spiders are scaryand because our older siblings
and whoever's raising us thinkspiders are scary.
So when we have someone elsetelling us what to be afraid of,
we'll we're creating that fearin our kids.
(17:50):
So, like um, our kids learn howto be afraid of certain things
that we're afraid of, and soit's really important, as an
adult at raising kids, to try tofocus on calm, confident
leadership, not to pass ourfears down onto our families.
Michaela (18:10):
Yeah, I heard somebody say this thing the other day
and I thought it was so good.
I'm going to repeat it Biologybecomes no, I'm sorry, Biography
becomes biology.
Laura (18:24):
Ooh that's really good.
Yeah, I thought more about that.
Michaela (18:27):
Yeah, so this is kind of like what you're talking
about.
So I think, like you know, youthink of epigenetics, right, but
I think too, you know, ourexperiences are causing those
genes to turn on and off.
Are the experiences of ourfamily are turning genes on and
off?
Right, but in this case, likeit's our environment, it's the
(18:49):
things that are going on aroundus, the things that we see, how
our parents react to things,turning into what's going on and
what's informing our nervoussystem.
Laura (18:59):
Yeah, that's right, it becomes our biology.
I have a story that I tell tokind of illustrate this.
I call it the restaurant story,but so you've heard it and you
know maybe this everybody onthis podcast has heard it,
because I've probably said itbefore.
But basically it's like pretendthat there's a little kid who
(19:20):
is going out to a restaurantwith their family and then, as
they're leaving, this little kidrealizes they forgot their
stuffed animal and runs backinto the store without their
parents realizing.
They run back into the store toget their stuffed animal and
their parents don't realize thatthey got out of the car and
then they drive away and theystart to leave the parking lot
(19:40):
before they realize that theyleft the little person.
So if that happened, well thenthis little child is going to be
really scared, feelingabandoned, like this kid just
got abandoned, right, like was.
Now it's this kid that has tofend for himself.
They have to take care ofthemselves Like they can't make
it.
On the street there's a littlekid, so in that moment that is a
(20:04):
traumatic event.
That child was just abandonedand it's dangerous.
It's a life or death situation,right?
Yeah, so that child now isgoing to encode and store every
single piece of sensoryinformation that it can access
in this moment as potentiallydangerous.
So, whatever the restaurantlooks like, the color of the
(20:27):
seats, the way it smells, thesounds that they hear, the
things that they taste, thethings that they touch, so what
they're doing, your nervoussystem in that moment of danger,
of like grave danger, isencoding all of these things
that now are going to signaldanger in the future.
Right, because it's going toprevent this from ever happening
(20:48):
again, even though 30 secondslater the mom comes running in
and it's like, oh my gosh, Ican't believe I didn't see you
get back in the car.
I love you, let's go to youknow, whatever, Right, well, and
and two.
Michaela (21:02):
Part of PTSD is sometimes that important pieces
of the events are not alwaysclear, because cortisol is toxic
to that part of the memorycenter of the brain that's
required for taking thosesnapshots.
Now, just like a red boothmakes you flash back to that
moment or feel dangerous, andyou, you know, you're not really
even sure you remember theoriginal event to begin with.
(21:24):
You just now know that redbooths are dangerous.
Laura (21:28):
Right.
So you only know those signals.
You don't know why.
You don't know why do I think ared booth is dangerous?
Or you might not even connectlogically that the red booth is
the thing that's triggering youto be scared.
You might just see it, yourbrain is just like, oh, that's
dangerous.
But it doesn't actually gothrough the process of telling
(21:49):
you I'm scared of this red boothbecause of this one time that
this happened.
It doesn't go through thatprocess because that process
takes too much time.
So what it's doing is it'sgoing to alert you to the danger
so that you run away and youget out of there.
And so the same is true forspiders.
If you have, it's not thespider, it's the reaction to the
(22:09):
spider.
If you have a spider on you andyou're a little kid and your
mom comes running out and islike, oh my gosh, that's so
scary and, like you know, freaksout about the spider, well now,
spiders make your mom freak out.
So they're a definite threat,right.
Michaela (22:27):
And I think it's the perception of whatever you and
your little kid brain sees it asright.
Like, if my perception is likeyou know, everybody's laughing
and joking and this doesn't seembad, then I'm not going to be
scared of spiders.
Like, right, it'd be funny,right?
If everybody reacts and Ibelieve, oh my gosh, I was
(22:47):
really about to die, spiders aregoing to kill me, then yeah,
we're going to be scared ofspiders.
Laura (22:53):
Yeah, and it also.
We might not realize this, butit's also the distress that your
parent being upset causes you.
So when our parents are reallyupset, that's a really dangerous
thing for a kid, because if theparent is losing control, that
means there's no one there tosave you.
There's no one there to takecare of you.
(23:14):
So when your parents are out ofcontrol and you're a kid,
that's really really, reallydangerous and scary.
And so if you grew up in ahouse where your parents were
often out of control they didn'thave control over themselves or
of others of you, you didn'thave control over yourself that
chronic toxic stress will createa PTSD response in you.
(23:37):
You will become hypervigilantbecause of that amount of stress
that you experienced.
Michaela (23:44):
Yes, absolutely.
I think that they're like it'snot a DSM diagnosis but there is
talk about you know thatcomplex developmental trauma
kind of thing, and so you'reabsolutely right.
It is constantly having thatelevation in cortisol which is
(24:04):
why you know people develop PTSDin childhood is just having
that chronic fight or fight andflight response activated.
Laura (24:14):
Yeah, they get that switch stuck on and it's really
hard to turn that off,especially because if this
environment doesn't change,you're not going to have a
reason to turn off this switchuntil you get out of that
environment into a safe one.
So if your family is in chaos alot of the time and your
parents aren't really in control, and chaos a lot of the time
(24:40):
and your parents aren't reallyin control, then that's that
toxic stress is a real danger.
Yeah, it's still dangerous toyou.
So you have to keep that stuffon.
You have to keep that responselevel on because you have to be
hyper aware.
You have to be hyper alertbecause you are the one who's in
charge of keeping yourself safe, which is too big a job for a
(25:00):
child to do.
Children can't handle that.
It's too much on their brains.
Michaela (25:06):
Yeah.
And so it makes me think tooabout, like, talking about
phobias.
And you know, why am I soscared of spiders?
It doesn't just have to bespiders, but I think that, in
general, you know, you have thisresponse whether it's a spider
(25:26):
or it's going to the grocerystore or it's, you know, public
speaking, whatever the thing is,you know, you know
thunderstorms it's.
It's the fact that your, your,your brain, is tied to emotional
responses, and so if you havean emotional response to
something, your brain says, ooh,this is important, we need to
(25:48):
pay attention to this.
And so then, now, every time weencounter similar situations,
our brain is reminding us ofthat thing and it's saying, hey,
you know, oh, remember, youknow you're not thinking about
this, but it remembers that whenyou gave that presentation,
that you got laughed at or youthought that the kids were
talking bad about you, and sothat's encoded in your brain
(26:10):
that, like, that's not safe,it's not, I'm not going to go do
a good job, this isn't for me.
And so then you start to havethat experience of having that
adrenaline fight and flightresponse, and then you avoid it
if you can, and that avoidancesays, oh, that made me feel
better.
So now I know that if I go dothis thing then I will feel
(26:33):
anxious, and that's notcomfortable, that's dangerous,
and if I avoid it then I'm safe,and so then that creates the
desire to avoid things that are,you know, dangerous, and so
then we become phobic of thatthing.
Laura (26:47):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's like the initial response
that we have to the event is thething that creates the phobia.
So, for example, we weretalking earlier about this fear
of something specific, like afear of spiders, like
arachnophobia, and how yourbrain encoded the information
(27:10):
when it first encountered thatspider.
So if the information requiredyour brain to go into fight or
flight, then you're going tohave that response every time.
It's like an allergy for yourbrain.
So when you have an allergy,you're not allergic to the thing
until after you encounter it.
So you encounter the thing andthen that's how you know you're
(27:31):
allergic, or that's how yourbody tells you that this is a
thing that it can't tolerate,and so it has this over
overactive histamine response tothis particular stimulus.
So the same is true for phobias.
So like, if you think of this,if you encounter this
information and your brain hasthis overreactive amygdala
response, then now it can turninto a phobia, because you are
(27:56):
going to continue to avoid itand your brain is going to keep
building it up, and you aregoing to continue to avoid it
and your brain is going to keepbuilding it up and you're going
to keep having this same cycleof intolerance for this thing.
So we want to remind ourselves,if you have a phobia and you
recognize that that phobia isunnecessary, like the thing
isn't really that dangerous orwhatever.
Like if it's public speakingand you have to do it anyway,
(28:18):
you can remind yourself like oh,this is just like an allergy,
it's like an allergy for mybrain that I'm having this fear
response because this fear isn'tactually telling me, like
because this thing's notactually dangerous.
Michaela (28:30):
Sure and your antihistamine and your EpiPen to
treat it is doing it anyways.
Laura (28:39):
Yeah, I can do it anyways, even though it's scary.
Michaela (28:43):
Yeah, allow yourself to feel a little nervous and
anxious about it, because youknow it's actually not dangerous
and that anxious response isnormal and it's not a bad thing.
We don't need to fight feelinganxiety when our heart races and
we get flushed and our musclesget tight and all those things.
(29:04):
That that doesn't mean alwaysthat there's something bad
happening, and so you canactually do some calming
techniques to calm your nervoussystem down so that you can give
yourself a chance to be able tointeract with those things and
I know we've talked a lot aboutthese things on the podcast
already.
But just taking a moment andbreathing and just allowing
(29:26):
yourself to slow your heart ratedown and let yourself get back
your brain, get back online,right, you know, when that
amygdala and the fight andflight response is going off,
our brain is not really workingthe way that it should, and so
we need to just take a breath,take a moment and and calm our
nervous system down, maybe bodyup, then top down, you know, so
(29:48):
we can think through it better.
Laura (29:51):
Yeah, when we are experiencing those reactions,
our cognitive processing part ofour brain is not online, it's
not operationally functioningthe way that it needs to in
order to be helpful.
So we want to re-engage ourcognitive brain.
So one way to do that is likecounting count backwards from 10
while you're breathing.
Making you know squares withyour hand while you're breathing
(30:16):
or you know doing something.
Including a cognitive functionlike a thought function can be
really helpful.
That's like a top-down approachto calming yourself down and
you're able to recognize oh, myamygdala was responding, but my
(30:37):
cognitive brain knows that thisisn't actually life or death.
I don't have to be so afraid,and I think sometimes we get
afraid of the anxiety in and ofitself.
I hear that all the time, andso one thing I say to people is
to remind yourself this isdifficult, it's not dangerous.
A little bit of anxiety is okay, it's a normal feeling, and so
(31:01):
we have to change the way wethink about these particular
events because, remember, thefear is about our reaction to
the event, it's not the eventitself.
So our reaction to the event isI feel like I'm going to die or
I believe that this is going tohurt me.
I believe that I'm going to beunsuccessful, so my thoughts and
(31:23):
beliefs can drive some of thatfear as well.
Michaela (31:27):
Absolutely.
Laura (31:29):
So challenging.
Those thoughts can be helpful.
Michaela (31:32):
Right, and we're not saying that if you have a panic
disorder or that you have aphobia that you go like
intentionally, do like prolongedexposure on your own of
anything Right, this is likereasonable.
I have a little bit of anxietyand I can calm my nervous system
down and I can tolerate it ofreaction to something.
(31:54):
You need to be working withsomeone as you walk that path of
exposing yourself to thesethings that make you nervous,
right.
Laura (32:04):
Yeah, there's an anxiety curve.
We don't want to have toolittle, because then we're shut
down and we're not responding toany stimuli, but we don't want
to have too much, because thenthat's going to give us panic.
So we want to dial it back alittle bit and get in that sweet
spot of I'm alert, I'm aware,I'm awake, but I'm also ready
(32:25):
and able and competent andcapable.
And in order to do that, wehave to be grounded in ourselves
and we can take control of ourbodies by breathing techniques.
That's like I have a choice, Ihave control, I can take on, I
can breathe and force myself toslow down and settle down.
(32:47):
That's showing your brain andbody that you are in control and
that you are safe in thismoment.
Michaela (32:52):
Right, absolutely.
You are literally activatingthat parasympathetic rest and
digest part of your body andyou're literally having your
body tell the brain oh wait,everything's cool down here,
right, like we're good.
And then you go oh wait, ok,we're not, we're not dying, our
heart's not racing, you know, wecan start digesting our food
(33:13):
again.
Laura (33:15):
Absolutely.
I like basic grounding skillslike touching the floor, like
putting putting your feet on thefloor, wiggling your toes in
your shoes, like recognizing,like I have freedom of movement,
I can control my body and whenI focus on my feet and my shoes,
I'm not focused on whatever I'mafraid of in that moment.
I'm able to shift my attentionand change my focus of attention
(33:37):
into something that is morehelpful and more readily
available to me than to thinkabout and to act on.
Then the fear is kind offlooding me with all these
chemicals.
Michaela (33:50):
Yeah, I love that.
I think that I use that a lot,now that we've talked about that
several times.
I use that a lot, like tellingpeople just wiggle their toes.
I like that.
You know you've said that likethat's typically not where
they're feeling the experiencein their body, right, and so
it's a good distraction and it'salso separate from kind of what
(34:11):
they're experiencing.
So I really like that and Ithink that even something I use
on myself sometimes when I'vejust had a long day and I'm like
okay, I'm, you know, I just gotto check back in with myself
and it helps, it makes adifference.
Laura (34:26):
So, as we go through all of these ways to overcome our
fears, what else can we do togive ourselves a little bit more
stability and safety when we'refeeling afraid?
Is there any other resourcesthat we can think?
Michaela (34:41):
of.
Well, I think that you know,definitely getting into a
therapist is key and workingthrough like what the original
kind of like traumaticexperience was or like trying to
like process through thosethings, but also like I think
medication can be a greatsupport for people who are not
(35:04):
are having trouble managing toget this under control right.
Like I think of the window oftolerance.
So some people come and they'relike I have literally tried
everything, like I've been intherapy for a year and like
these skills don't seem to bemaking a difference for me and I
kind of talked to them aboutlike the window of tolerance and
(35:24):
if we're, if we're up here likea 10 and our, our skills are
not going to help us until inthat particular person, they're
not going to help until we're abit lower Right, and so
sometimes adding a medication inor a supplement protocol or you
know something like that, tohelp kind of just calm the
nervous system down a bit sothat we can actually feel like
(35:46):
we're gaining some tractionwithin managing those
experiences that are reallychallenging for them.
So you know, if, if I see aspider and every time I see a
spider I'm, you know, a 10, Ican't and I can't do anything
but run away from it, then thatmight be a good chance for you
(36:06):
to try to try to look atsomething else, to see if, like
a medicine or supplement, couldbe helpful.
Laura (36:13):
Yeah, that's a good point.
So we've got breathingtechniques, grounding techniques
.
We can take back control bychallenging our thoughts and
challenging our beliefs, and wecan seek professional help if we
need to.
I think those are really goodways to help overcome your fears
(36:33):
.
So I think that's a good placeto end this spooky episode.
Michaela (36:37):
Yeah, Thanks for joining us on this Halloween
spooky, frightening episode.
I know I'm.
I was a little scared startingit.
Laura (36:46):
And we did it anyway.
And here we are.
Well, thank you for listeningto.
Why Am I Like this?
If you like our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
your favorite podcast platform,follow the show and share it
with your friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, laura Wood and
Michelle Beaver.
Our theme song is Making EndsMeet by Sickest Bees, and a
(37:10):
special thanks to BenegaryCounseling and Coaching and
Active Healing PsychiatricServices for sponsoring this
show.
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