October 14, 2024 • 53 mins
What if childhood experiences hold the key to understanding our adult behaviors? Join us as we unravel the mysteries of personal development with Michaela Beaver, a psychiatric nurse practitioner, and Laura Wood, a trauma therapist, in an enlightening episode of "Why Am I Like This?" Through their personal journeys, Michaela and Laura share how unexpected life events guided them into the mental health field, shifting aspirations from neonatal care to a passion for helping others overcome mental health challenges. Their stories reveal the profound impact of early life influences on career paths and the critical role self-awareness plays in understanding our actions.
Together, we explore complex ideas like adaptive information processing and how childhood events shape our perception of threats. By examining personal stories, including the trials of parenting a child with ADHD, Michaela and Laura emphasize empathy and understanding as vital tools in nurturing emotional growth. They highlight how our sensory perceptions can become conditioned by trauma, leading to misinterpretations of danger. Their discussion offers insights into fostering healthier responses to past traumas, advocating for emotional regulation, and validating children's experiences to prevent them from internalizing fear.
Michaela and Laura delve into the transformative power of therapy, particularly EMDR, as a pathway to healing and self-actualization. They offer grounding techniques to help manage triggers and remain present, underlining the importance of finding personalized tools to regain control in moments of distress. As they navigate the journey from survival to self-fulfillment, they challenge the linear model of Maslow's hierarchy, proposing a more dynamic approach to meeting our needs. Throughout the episode, they invite listeners to engage with their growth journeys, exploring vulnerabilities and identities while fostering a deeper understanding of what shapes us.
Laura's Free Course on Emotional Development and Regulation:
https://benavieri.com/neuroception-sign-up/
This show is sponsored by:
Core Self
Benavieri Counseling & Coaching
www.benavieri.com
Active Healing Psychiatric Services
www.activehealingpsych.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura (00:03):
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:12):
Hi and I'm Mishayla Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Laura (00:16):
So, M, why are we doing this podcast?
Michaela (00:21):
I am so glad that you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better, how the
things you learned aboutyourself and the world and
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
things about ourselves that wemight wonder about, like why am
I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
(00:41):
Why are my thoughts so negative?
Why do I have to?
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all the time?
Laura (00:49):
Yes, and today we're talking about us.
We're talking why are we likethis, as in you and me, when
we're going to try to answer thefollowing questions why do we
do what we do, how do we becomemore aware of what drives our
behaviors, and what else can wedo to have more control over our
actions?
So hopefully, those last twoare going to have a little bit
(01:09):
more impact on our listenersthan we're trying to work out
our own stuff on the podcast.
But yeah, let's just starttalking about what.
About you?
What is your thing?
Why do you do what you do?
Michaela (01:27):
that's a really good question.
So I I see a lot of clientsthat are trying to like figure
their lives out and I get youknow, I've talked a lot with my
student as well about, like, howI got here.
And if you would have asked mehonestly, like 20 years ago,
(01:47):
that I was going to be in mentalhealth, I would have you know,
I would have said that you'recrazy.
You know, like that was not mything.
I had a plan.
I was going to go back and goto be an NP and go work for this
orthopedist doctor back inIllinois and that that was going
to be that right.
I thought surgery was super cooland just life um went in
(02:10):
different directions.
I ended up as a you know,working in the ER in like rural
Iowa and, um, there was such anunderserved mental health like
outpatient need and my friendwas, like go back, come, come
back to school with me, likecome, get your psych NP.
And I was like sure, let's doit.
(02:32):
Well, then she ended up notdoing it and then I ended up
doing it and I couldn't see mylife going any other way.
Like I, I love being able tohelp people in this way and I
feel like it's just reallybecome my calling and it's the
calling.
I didn't really see that wasthere, but you know I'm really
(02:54):
glad that I ended up here.
Laura (02:56):
That's so cool.
So you didn't like you weren'tsix years old, saying I want to
be a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Michaela (03:04):
No, actually I wanted to do a psychiatric nurse
practitioner.
No, actually I wanted to doneonatal.
When I was like young, likebabies and my first you know I'm
in nursing school and I go tothe like OB ward and my I my
teacher was like are you okay?
You're like white as a ghost.
And I was like I don't knowwhat to do with this tiny little
human being.
(03:24):
You're like white as a ghostand I was like I don't know what
to do with this tiny littlehuman being.
I had no clue.
They were just I.
We didn't have a lot of likeyoung babies in my family or I
wasn't drawn to being aroundthem for some reason, and yeah,
so nope, not, that was not forme, that's so wild, that's great
.
Laura (03:40):
So when you transitioned into mental health, like what is
what's the most surprisingthing for you?
That you know that this turnedout to be your calling.
Like that, this turned out tobe your thing.
Michaela (03:53):
Well, you know, growing up, my mom always said
that I was.
They always called me thepeacemaker, and I'm pretty sure
I'm.
I know you're not like.
You may not be like a bigEnneagram person, but I'm pretty
sure I'm a nine.
I know you're not like, you maynot be like a big Enneagram
person, but I'm pretty sure I'ma nine.
And um, and I didn't see that.
I didn't really see that.
You know, if I went into mentalhealth, I went into healthcare,
(04:14):
I think, because my dad had a,you know, big accident and in in
my childhood and um, thatreally set me in this path, um,
but I think, like, um, I thinkthat I, I w, I like, looking
back, I should have seen that.
You know there was a lot oflike, my uncles had substance
(04:35):
use disorders and you know, themore I learned about like mental
health and like substance use,I was like, oh, this makes sense
for me.
You know, like I understand whyI was called to this and I just
didn't really know it.
And then, um, I have a almostseven year old and he has ADHD
(04:57):
and I've really made my life'swork about him, about helping
him grow, about being the bestparent that I can for him.
I'm going to get emotionalabout that, but you know, I
think that like it's hard andit's challenging and I tell my
patients all the time that I'mwalking this road with you
because I work with so manyparents with kids that are
(05:17):
struggling with ADHD andoppositional defiance and not
knowing how to parent these kidsthat are just so strong wills,
and I walk the road with themand I'm trying, I try to help
them along the way as I workthrough the things myself.
Laura (05:32):
Yeah, well, that's so great, like that you get to
connect with your patients onthat level.
You know what I mean.
Like I think, as a patient, Iwant to go in and know that the
person I'm talking to likereally understands what I'm
going through.
Like, how many times do we feellike we're not with someone who
(05:56):
is giving us the time that weneed or we're not with someone
who is really listening to uswhen we're trying to get
healthcare?
Michaela (06:03):
I hear that a lot and I hear and I get a lot of kids.
I see a lot of kids that end upmedicated for something that
doesn't necessarily, in myopinion, need medication.
Now, I do believe thatmedication can help and you know
, when they're being prescribedthese things, that's not
necessarily the wrong choice.
Prescribed these things, that'snot necessarily the wrong
(06:28):
choice.
It's just that I think thatwhen we're dealing with kids, a
lot of times and maybe this issomething you see too but
parents want to fix the child,but what we can't do is control
another human being's behavior.
We can't make them choose goodchoices, we can't make them do
something different.
We have to understand what'smotivating them to act in the
(06:49):
way that they're acting, so thatwe can support the cause of it,
not the behavior.
And I know that you knowsometimes that parents feel like
they're giving into their kidor they're letting them get away
with things.
But I just oftentimes, if wecan really understand what's
(07:10):
going on for our kid and supportthem at that level, then then
we can stop the behavior beforeit starts.
And that's not always not everykid but like, but certain kids
sometimes.
There is that opportunity tointervene earlier and do it
differently and change how weview the situation.
(07:30):
They're not just trying toannoy us.
They're not just trying todeliberately, you know, get
under our skin or disobey.
There's usually a reason whythey're acting in the way that
they're acting.
Laura (07:44):
Yeah, like I always say, most kids are not just like
malicious jerks.
That's not what's happening.
They don't like to be bothering.
They don't like to feel likepeople don't want them around.
They don't like to feel the waythat they feel when we treat
them, the way that we treat thembased on their behaviors.
That doesn't feel good to themeither, and so a lot of times
(08:06):
they're just out of control,right Like they don't have
control over their own bodiesand their own brains to regulate
themselves.
Michaela (08:15):
And that's a point that I make to parents all the
time.
I'm like your kid makes goodchoices when they're regulated
right and they're like yeah, andI'm like so, let's get them
regulated.
Laura (08:29):
I've loved that.
Michaela (08:30):
And I think I learned a lot about from you know,
talking with you and the booksthat you recommended and
different things and this is notstuff that was taught in NP
school by any means, you know,but these are things that, like
I said, I've learned along theway because of necessity,
because of curiosity of my own.
Laura (08:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
We get interested in the stuffwe're interested in because of
our own stuff, right, Like I'mhearing a through line like,
okay, when you were a kid, yourdad had this accident and needed
health care and you were drawnto that.
That was like a touchstonemoment for you and you that
(09:15):
carried with you throughout yourlife.
Like most of us do what we dobecause of something that
happened in our past, On a levelat least.
Michaela (09:23):
I agree, on a level at least, I agree.
I definitely agree that thatit's we're developing these
behaviors, and from the verybeginning.
Laura (09:37):
Yeah, like most of us, don't just go into something
like, oh, I've never reallythought about this or had any
exposure to it in my life and Ijust decided to do this thing
and it's a completely randomevent.
That's not what happens, right.
Michaela (09:51):
And so I think a lot of the time we act based on
feelings, thoughts, you know, anawareness of what their needs
(10:13):
are.
So they're not only acting onfeelings and reacting to things
or thoughts.
Feelings, you know, it's howyou know, how do we train them
that they, that they don't haveto act on those things, that we,
that we can act on things basedon like what our needs are and
have and like a plan.
Laura (10:36):
Yeah, I the.
What I hear you describing isadaptive information processing.
It's what it's learning fromyour experiences instead of just
reacting to your experiences.
Right, like when we are able toprocess information in an
adaptive and healthy way andwe're able to fully and
concretely understand what'sgoing on with us in a regulated
(10:59):
state, then that informationturns into helpful, usable
experience that teaches us andthat we draw from along the way.
Now, if we interpret thisinformation in a dysregulated
way, in a state of fight orflight from a sense of danger
and threat, then it becomesexperience that we're going to
(11:21):
be reactive to and we're goingto be avoidant of, and we're
going to be constantly trying toreenact a different resolution
to that experience.
Like, for example, I always saylife is a traumatic reenactment
.
But like, for example, if youknow you go into healthcare
because you had a horribleexperience and everything you
(11:43):
want to do is fix thatexperience and everything that
you want to do is again isaround like writing this wrong.
That happened right, so thatcould happen too, that could be
a healthy outlet.
But also, if you're sointerested in like writing this
wrong and you're only focused onyourself, then you're not
(12:04):
really in it in a healthy way,and you're not really going to
be able to feel satisfactionfrom your work Right, because
you're always going to be tryingto replay this wrong that
happened to you and it's nevergoing to be enough.
Michaela (12:15):
Yeah, then it's never about like how can I contribute
beyond myself, which is whatgives you ultimate satisfaction.
It's really how do I fix myself, how do I make this not be what
happened?
Laura (12:27):
to me.
How do I make this not be whathappened to me?
Absolutely, that's a thing thatwe're constantly replaying in
our brains without knowing.
But those things that don't getstored adaptively, those events
and experiences that we hadwhen there was a threat present
and when the threat wasunresolved and we didn't have
(12:49):
the support that we needed toget through it in real time,
then that information is goingto continue to loop around and
round and round until we get adifferent outcome, until we get
a resolution.
And so when we say, how do Ihelp my kids?
Come until we get a resolution.
And so when we say, how do Ihelp my kids, what we can do is
we can offer them the supportthat they need in order to be
(13:11):
regulated through processingthat information.
And so when something really badhappens in a child's life, we
want to be present with them.
Let them tell and retell thatstory and continue to say like,
hey, and you did a great jobhere and you, you know you got
away from the situation that wasscary, and when the fire alarm
(13:32):
got, went off like you knew whatto do and you were able to get
out of the classroom and youwere able to go to the place
where the teacher went and youdid such a great job and you did
exactly what you're supposed todo and even and there was no
fire, it just was a scary event,right, like so we're kind of
working through with them andletting them tell their story.
Like I, when I heard it, Ididn't know what happened.
(13:53):
I thought there was a real fire, and they're going to say that
over and over.
When I heard it, I thoughtthere was a real fire when I
heard it.
And then we want to keep sayinglike, yeah, yeah, you felt
really scared and it turned outand you did exactly what you're
supposed to do and you did agreat job and you got away
safely, right, so we'rereinforcing the helpful stuff
(14:13):
that they did, while we're alsoallowing them to process through
, instead of just saying, yeah,but it wasn't a real fire, so
you're fine, right, right, causethat still, that event was
still this touchstone event forthem.
Like I've seen kids who theydon't know, every time a fire
goes off, a fire alarm goes off,like it's not their first
instinct to think like, oh, thisis a grill, we're just, we're
just practicing.
(14:33):
No, it's their first instinctto say like, oh there's a fire
here, right.
And so the same is true withother school drills, and I've
heard this from kids a lot.
So, like I use that example,because it's a real example that
things that adults think arenot a big deal, right, kids
interpret those things from astate of threat, right.
(14:55):
And so when we experience thatstuff and we experience these
threats and they don't getresolved, that's what we end up
not really learning from in ahealthy way, and we always are
trying to like remedy thatsomehow and reconcile it in our
brains.
Michaela (15:10):
Yeah, and then I like the analogy of the smoke the
like alarm going off, becauseour smoke detector in our brain
is going off.
In those instances our amygdalais going off and it's sending
us that danger signal.
So that's definitely veryfitting.
Laura (15:27):
Yeah, and then they constantly are going to keep
going off when it's not anemergency, right?
So that's the thing thathappens is when we have a thing
that happens to us that's like alife threat, then we take in
all the surroundings.
We do this through our senses.
We take in all the surroundings.
We do this through our senses,right?
We have sight, we have touch,we have smell, we have taste, we
(15:50):
have sound.
Those senses are designed.
The whole entire reason why wehave any of them is to not die,
is to keep us alive, is to seedanger, to smell danger, to hear
it right, all of these thingstell us what's okay and what's
not.
Like, think about, like, ifsomething tastes rotten, like
(16:11):
you don't eat it, right, thattaste is there for a reason.
And so when we have alife-threatening situation, or
one that we think islife-threatening, our brain
basically takes a snapshot ofall the sensory information
that's coming in at that momentand categorizes it as
potentially dangerous, right?
(16:33):
So if the chairs are red, thatmeans red chairs are potentially
dangerous.
If the sound is loud, thatmeans loud sounds are
potentially dangerous.
If the teacher has on a certainperfume, if they walk a certain
way, if they have a certainsmell, you know, even just that
classroom itself.
(16:54):
We're taking in all thisinformation and just
categorizing individual sensoryinputs as potentially dangerous,
because our brain doesn't knowwhich of those things caused the
danger.
Right, it could be any of them.
So we're going to make surethat we're alerting ourselves in
the future.
So then, the next time I'm in asituation where any of those
things occur, my alarm system isgoing to go off again.
(17:17):
My amygdala is going to be likedanger, danger, there's a
threat here, right?
And then I'm going to have whatwe call anxiety for no reason,
because it's not no reason, not.
Michaela (17:28):
Yeah, unless we have the adaptive from our, our, our
parents or a supportive person,like you said, and they're
telling the part of your brainthat stores memory, which is all
kind of talking together, right, and so they're like that, that
part storing memory, and yourparents are saying you know,
that was okay, yeah, and nothingbad happened, and they're
(17:51):
storing that and helping youstore that adaptive information
so that when your brain goes tothe amygdala, danger, and then
it can go to that memory centerand say, hey, is there anything
bad?
Oh, no, no, red chairs are fine, right, like no, no, that's
fine, you know.
So your brain is storing thosememories so that we can, kind of
they can communicate.
And so when you're doing thosethings to help your kiddo have
(18:14):
adaptive information stored andthat, and they've replayed that
image and that situation withyou in a safe space, giving them
what they need to be able to goback and say no, everything was
fine, that was a drill.
Laura (18:29):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Like they close the feedbackloop, right, the amygdala,
everything.
So we start in our lower brain,we start at the bottom, work
our way through the middle,where our memory centers and our
sensory processing informationgoes, and then we work our way
through the top and through thefront, and the front of our
brain is where that cognitioncomes into play and sorts out
the reality of the situation andsays oh, red chairs aren't
(18:51):
dangerous, the fire alarm wentoff because the teachers had a
fire drill that day and it's forus to practice, right.
So now I'm cognitivelyprocessing, so I'm emotionally
processing, then I'm sensoryprocessing, then I'm cognitively
processing.
And so unless I can completethat feedback loop and go all
the way to the front, then I'mgoing to have some maladaptive,
(19:13):
some unhelpfully storedinformation in there that's
going to be reactive later thatI'm going to have an alert
because of later.
Sure, that makes perfect sense.
Michaela (19:24):
Yeah, brains man, you know, the more that we learn
about brains, the more that welearn that everything that they
do is like, first and foremostdriven to provide safety for us.
And so if our kid isdysregulated and they're in
fight or flight or they'regetting stuck there because
(19:46):
their smoke detector is goingoff too easily, you know that's
a sign saying that you know theyneed co-regulation, that they
need that support to help them,not that they're trying to be a
jerk.
Laura (20:02):
They're not just trying to be a jerk, nobody wants to be
a jerk.
They're not just trying to be ajerk.
Nobody wants to be a jerk Like.
I think we assign personalmalice to behaviors that are
upsetting to us.
Why do we do that?
Because we're threatened bythose behaviors and so our alarm
system is going off, and sowhen I'm thinking my kid is
trying to hurt me because hejust wants me to suffer, then
(20:26):
there's that's an indicator,that that's a fire alarm
indicator, right, like becauseno, he doesn't and he's acting
in a way that is inconsistentwith his goals.
But we typically, when we'renot in a regulated state, we
behave in a way that'sinconsistent with our goals
because our goals are wrong,we're confused, we're solving
(20:46):
the wrong problem, and so, whenit comes to regulation this is
one of the reasons why I do whatI do is that adults need to
learn how to regulate themselvestoo, so, like for all of the
kids, that we can help in realtime.
There are enough adults thatnever got that in the first
place, right, and they're havingkids Right.
Michaela (21:10):
And they think that they're okay enough because they
have a job, they make goodmoney, they're doing well enough
, they're functioning Right, andthey don't see, where they can,
where their trauma is impactingtheir life still, where their
past is impacting their lifestill and that the kid is the
traumatic reenactment, thetraumatic reminder of their
(21:33):
experiences in childhood andthere's nothing in our brain
that's telling us that there'sno way of knowing that is what's
happening.
But it is Right.
Laura (21:45):
And we don't know, because it never made it through
that cognitive processing partright.
We only got emotional andsensory input.
We never got the cognitivestuff because it wasn't able to
be worked out in real time.
We just had to suffer alone.
Sure, and when kids sufferalone, those things become
(22:07):
traumatic.
So I heard trauma definedrecently as basically anything
that causes dissociation, andwhen we're suffering alone, we
have no choice but to dissociate.
And so when we're in childhood,and so that's when we check out
and we numb ourselves, we numbourselves to the pain and we
(22:29):
separate ourselves from theworld that is hurting us and we
shut down and we basically justgo away into our own inner world
and create a world that feelssafer for us.
And so when we are sufferingalone in childhood or we're
(22:50):
suffering at the hands of anadult that we trust, we're
really unable to process thisinformation in a healthy way.
It's impossible in that moment.
And so those things cause real,lasting impacts that are going
to come back and be tried to bereenacted later in order to get
a different outcome.
And the first opportunity wehave to do that is when we have
(23:13):
a kid.
Sure.
Michaela (23:16):
But unfortunately then we might feel fear or shame or
guilt, which leads us toavoiding those feelings and
those thoughts, which is why wewant that to just go away.
We want our kid to either justbe okay, we just want those
feelings to go away.
Laura (23:36):
Yeah, we just want it to stop.
We want relief.
And shame is the suppression ofthe self in order to achieve
connection with another.
Shame is designed to suppressyourself.
It's designed to push down yourauthenticity so that you can
connect with the person that youare dependent upon, and so that
(23:59):
might be a dangerous person andI can't authentically be myself
around that person.
So shame, shame's job is topush away my authenticity so
that I can become somebody thatI can, that can be tolerated and
that I can tolerate by thisperson.
Michaela (24:15):
Okay, I've not heard it said that way.
That's really good.
Laura (24:18):
Yeah, and so that shame is really powerful
self-suppressor.
And when we feel it, then we goautomatically into that
dissociated, go away, follow,you know, just end the whole
thing.
We just shut down.
And when we feel guilt, guiltis the sense of I did something
wrong and I'm you know, I'mmessing up because, right, we
(24:41):
feel the shame, and then we shutdown, and then we feel guilty
because we shut down or becausewe handled it wrong, or because
we did this thing, and so it'slike this cycle, and then we
feel guilty, and even if it'snot about parenting, but it's
about other relationships, it'sabout work, maybe it's about
just yourself, and you don'tfeel like you're doing enough
for yourself, you don't feellike you're taking care of
(25:02):
yourself, you don't feel likeyou're taking care of your house
, you don't feel like you'redoing it right.
You're constantly just in thisshame, guilt spiral and this
loop that just continually feedsitself.
Michaela (25:17):
Yeah, that sounds like a really unhealthy place to be
yeah, and we can.
Laura (25:23):
The thing is we can get out of that, we can stop that
cycle by getting regulated, bylearning how to regulate our
nervous systems so that whenthat stuff comes up, we can know
oh, this is something from thepast and I can do something
different.
Now I can change my nervoussystem regulation, I can choose
(25:45):
to regulate myself, and that'ssomething that we learn how to
do over time, because that's notjust, it's not just oh, as soon
as you hear this, you're goingto suddenly, like know how to
regulate your nervous system.
That's not how it works.
Unfortunately, system that'snot how it works.
(26:05):
Unfortunately, it's a timeconsuming, hard process to
rewire this stuff, and so youknow, one of the main reasons
why I do what I do is because ofbecause I know that you can
work through it.
I know that it can work.
I know that you can come out ofthat shame and guilt spiral and
you can turn yourself intosomebody who believes in
(26:26):
yourself and somebody who caresabout yourself and somebody who
knows your competencies andknows your capabilities.
I know that that's possiblebecause I've experienced that
myself.
Michaela (26:36):
Yeah, tell us more about where you, where you like
your whole journey.
Laura (26:42):
So I always wanted to be a therapist, like when I was a
little kid.
I would say that I was going tobe a therapist or an attorney.
And so I still secretly want togo be an attorney, but but I'll
just do one thing for now.
So so I always just wanted todo this, and I don't necessarily
(27:05):
know exactly why, but Iremember feeling growing up.
I remember feeling like orknowing somehow, that if you had
someone there with you and youdidn't have to suffer alone, and
that there was somebody whocared enough about you and who
said I'm here for you, no matterwhat, no matter who you are, no
(27:26):
matter what you think or feelor say or you know, no matter
how you behave, I care about youand I think that you matter.
I somehow knew that if, if thatwere true for everyone, we
would have less suffering.
That's pretty neat for beingyoung.
(27:47):
Well, and I think thatdeveloped over time, right, and
into my late teens and kind ofrecognizing that, especially as
a teenager, that's moreimportant than ever when you're
trying to become independent,right.
And if you are trying to becomeindependent but you don't
believe that you matter and youdon't believe that you have
value and you don't believe thatanyone is going to care about
(28:09):
what you do, you know yourmotivation suffers a little bit
Sometimes.
You know the opposite can betrue.
You can go out to proveeverybody wrong or whatever, but
you're still going to have thatsense inside of you that is,
that something's wrong andsomething's off and you're
always going to be replayingthat.
You're always going to bereenacting it.
And so when I was a young mom, Iwas going through a lot of
(28:36):
really difficult experiences andmy trauma was all coming up and
saying like hey, I have areally hard time regulating my
kids and regulating my emotionsand like why is this so hard?
I must just be terrible andkind of just like having all
these negative thoughts aboutmyself, like I must be.
Fundamentally, and over thecourse of you know 10 years in
(29:05):
therapy and you know six yearsof really good therapy.
I was able to turn thatreenactment around and really
stop trying to solve the pastand really able to really be
able to recognize myself in thepresent and like identify, like
(29:27):
who I am and what I'm worth andwhy I'm here and and what I can
offer and be a fulfilled personin my life.
And I've seen the work, workand so I went to be the same
kind of therapist that helped me.
That's really this is my life'straumatic reenactment is I
(29:48):
wanted to be a therapist whocould help others, the way that
my therapist helped me andeverything that I've learned and
I know all the adaptive thatI've learned over the years of
like that you know it's not myfault that someone else hurts me
, like that's information that Ididn't know.
I remember distinctly the daythat I learned that I had the
(30:10):
right to say no and that itwasn't bad to say no and let
people down Right.
I remember distinctly likelearning these pieces of
adaptive information and howthey changed me, and so that's
why I love EMDR and that's whyyou know adaptive information
processing is the theory behindEMDR therapy, which is a trauma
therapy that I practice, and youknow, knowing all of this stuff
(30:35):
and how effective it can be isreally what drives me effective
it can be is really what drivesme.
Michaela (30:46):
Yeah, that's really deep and thanks for sharing such
.
You know, your personal journeyand everything.
So what do you think about EMDR?
So there's a lot of adaptive, Iknow you know.
Then you're there's also, youknow, a a lot of um cognitive
pieces to EMDR.
Was there one thing about EMDRthat was like so powerful for
(31:07):
you?
Laura (31:10):
I think for me the most powerful piece was um, was
actually like ego state or likeparts work.
Was actually like ego state orlike parts work.
So stuff inside, so we all have.
So parts is dissociation work,right.
So I was a dissociative personin the past.
(31:33):
That was how I coped with stuff.
I had dissociative processesconstantly, and so dissociation
is that disconnection fromoneself.
So disconnection from yourselfor from the world is as a coping
mechanism to either numb oravoid or escape pain and painful
experiences.
And so incorporating that workand really recognizing and
(31:58):
treating the dissociative partsof me that were struggling and
stuck was the most helpful thing.
So the way this works is peoplehave maybe heard of similarly
called like inner child work oryou know, or or you know working
I don't like this term, butlike reparenting yourself or
(32:19):
whatever.
So those are things that kindof may be more commonplace but
are a little bit different thanwhat I'm talking about here,
which is identifying the partsof oneself that feel stuck in
time and space.
Feel stuck in time and space.
(32:45):
So we all have aspects of ourpersonality that didn't fully
develop past a traumaticexperience, and some of us
experience those as just likemood states or what we call ego
states, and others experiencethose as dissociated parts of a
self, and others experiencethose as dissociated parts of a
self, and so on a spectrum weall might say oh well, part of
(33:09):
me feels like I really love togo out with my friends, but
another part of me just wants tostay home in bed and watch TV.
Right, yeah, we have theseinner conflict parts that don't
agree and that can happen allthe time.
So those are more fluid, kindof ego-steady parts of the self,
but dissociated parts are moreseparated, they're more
(33:30):
compartmentalized and they don'thave access to all the same
information that a present selfwould have.
So a part that is stuck inchildhood, a part of oneself
that is dissociated based on atraumatic experience, might
experience themselves in theworld as a child or a teenager
(33:51):
experience might experiencethemselves in the world as a
child or a teenager.
And so I have kind of a funnyexample of this.
Like one time this was maybelike 15, 15 years ago and I had
my little kid yeah, my kids werereally little and I was at like
the grocery store or somethingand I saw someone I knew from
high school and I immediatelylike turned into a teenager.
I just like felt like a littlekid.
(34:11):
I felt like I was school and Iimmediately like turned into a
teenager.
I just like felt like a littlekid.
I felt like I was just, and Ibecame terrified because there's
this person that I knew from um, from a time that was difficult
for me, and I I literally hid.
I went and like hid behindsomething until they passed and
then I like escaped, I like ranaway from the store because I
(34:31):
was so afraid.
Yeah, I was a fully grown,adult woman with like children.
What was going on, that was, Iwas being hijacked by a part of
myself that felt really youngand stuck and didn't know how to
cope with the situation and thethreat that was present in that
moment.
Now, if I were talking tosomeone about this today, I
(34:54):
would recommend that we kind ofexplore the perspective of the
part that was scared, right andso to allow that part to kind of
speak and share what washappening for that part of me at
that time and hopefully wecould get some insight and
whatever else.
And then the other thing that Iwould do is I would learn how
to recognize that alarm systemgoing off, because when we get
(35:15):
hijacked by a part of ourselvesthat feels really young.
That's an indicator thatthere's an alarm system going
off right, that there's a threatbeing sensed in that moment,
and so I would say, okay, let'slearn how to recognize that
alarm and find a way to regulateour nervous system in that
moment.
Use some grounding skills.
Use some self-regulation toolsthat you may have learned in
(35:39):
therapy, whether those arecognitive tools like doing math
problems or counting backwardsfrom 10 or remembering your
address or something like thatSomething to get that cognitive
part of your brain back online.
Or sometimes it's sensory MaybeI carry essential oils and I
smell the smell of mint orlavender or something like that.
So those are really goodgrounding skills.
(35:59):
But grounding skills are a wayto help your nervous system
settle, yeah.
Michaela (36:04):
So what I'm hearing you say is that, through therapy
, what could happen if thatincidence is replayed out over
again?
You might get the alarm systemto go off, your smoke detectors
going off, but instead you canstop, ground yourself, get back
(36:25):
into the present moment so thatyou can then remain in control.
You can then remain in controland that part of you that wanted
to go hide maybe doesn't haveto go hide because you can be
back in the present moment andbe able to calm your nervous
system.
Laura (36:44):
Yes, and that's a really simple example, not a complex
one, right?
So like this is just, this islike the simplest of examples to
demonstrate, like what I'mtalking about here, but this can
be a far more complex processfor people and much more
difficult than you know.
The situation that I describedjust to kind of disclaimer.
Michaela (37:04):
Yeah, that's good to know, but I think that, like,
there's a lot of people that areout there that would probably
identify with the experiencethat you described and, um, in
some way we've all you know, alot of us have probably
experienced some situation wherewe whether we write, we
(37:28):
probably don't recognize itwithout therapy, but we we've
had situations where we'vereacted in a way that was very
unlike ourselves, our normal,typical selves, and being able
to use those grounding skillsand knowing that we can have
control is empowering.
Laura (37:46):
Absolutely it is, and that's one of the most helpful
things that I've learned throughtherapy is grounding skills and
learning what works for me,right?
Not everything works foreveryone.
Michaela (37:59):
Right.
Laura (38:00):
I'm not a well.
I used to be much more adverseto like breathing exercises
because I felt like they wouldjust make me feel anxious.
But I learned about bellybreathing Instead of breathing
for my chest, I breathe for mybelly and that helps, right.
(38:22):
So it's like not everythingworks for everyone.
We have to practice andrecognize like, oh well, that
wasn't helpful, that didn't work.
And then we can use what we'relearning and adapt to it more
and say, okay, well, you know,maybe chest breathing, maybe try
it a different way, right.
So we adapt it to ourselves andwe practice.
(38:42):
And there's a thousand milliongrounding skills out there,
right?
Michaela (38:48):
Yes, I find myself in session with people and being
like, well, let's talk aboutbreathing, and I'm like, where
do I start?
Which breathing skill should Istart with?
Oh, I have like I just want tothrow all of this information at
you and I'm like, okay, slowdown, Just give them one or two
things today.
We'll revisit it and see how itgoes.
But like there's just so manythings that people can use, that
(39:10):
it's it's.
It can be overwhelming.
Laura (39:12):
And one of my favorites is a calm place, and you know
it's part of the protocol tocreate a calm place.
We're supposed to like name it,and I find that people get
caught up on, like what the nameis going to be, Like it has to
be something creative, and I'mlike, no, it doesn't, I just
(39:32):
call mine the calm place.
Like I'm not a creative person,you can just name it that,
right?
Yeah, and so you're creating aspace of visualization that
gives you a sense of relief in amoment where you need it.
That's it.
You're not fixing whateverproblem is facing you.
It's not about that.
It's not a long-term solution.
This is a short-term solutionfor a short-term problem, which
(39:54):
is that you're dysregulated inthis moment and that you need to
regulate yourself in order tofeel safe again.
Michaela (39:59):
Yeah, Because we make good decisions when we're
regulated.
Laura (40:03):
I love that.
I'm going to start using thatall the time, Just like I stole
Caitlin's.
We don't do things that don'tmake sense.
We make good decisions whenwe're regulated.
I love that that's so true.
Michaela (40:15):
So I'm thinking like back of like you know, kind of I
can't remember exactly what itwas that you said, but it you
know, in our past, like we gothrough all these things and we
get kind of stuck and we can'tfully develop in certain
situations, and do you thinkthat that's why some people have
(40:37):
so many cognitive, likecognitive distortions or like
negative thinking, right, Like,um, you think about, like all
the like, all the reasons whypeople blame their situation.
They blame well, all thereasons why people blame their
situation.
They blame, well, I couldn'tmake this happen because, you
know, I didn't have enough moneyand I didn't have enough time
(40:58):
and I didn't have enough, um,you know what, X, Y, Z, right, I
didn't have the support.
And so they they kind of likewe, we, we developed this, you
know, thought process where,like it's never, it's never
enough, we can never have enoughto externally to do what we
need to do, Right, but I think,like when you kind of described
(41:23):
your transition through therapy,the way that you view the world
seemed to have changed.
Right, it did.
You developed passion anddetermination and self-belief in
yourself.
That stuff was developedthrough you changing and
developing these adaptivethought processes.
(41:45):
Is that fair?
Is that something?
Laura (41:48):
Yeah, I think that's really well said.
Actually, I think that you'reexactly right that when we are
stuck in trauma time, when we'restuck in these thought
processes and these loops much,we are causing this external
stuff to happen, right.
(42:15):
So we're sort of we're alongfor the ride, if you will, in
childhood, whereas when webecome adults and fully develop
and grow up, then we're driving.
But when you're experiencinglike chronic toxic stress or
trauma or abuse or you knowwhatever it is that you're
experiencing in childhood,that's that's causing you to
(42:37):
have to stop that developmentand just not die Right, that
becomes the priority.
It's not about development,it's just about survival ever
caused.
That is basically the thing thatyou're going to replay over and
over and over until you resolvethe stuff in therapy and then
(43:01):
your belief about the thing willchange, right.
So the thing that is happeningto you your belief about it is
usually negative andself-focused about.
It is usually negative andself-focused, like it's my fault
or I couldn't do anything, I'mhelpless, I'm useless, I'm not
good enough, et cetera, etcetera.
And then through the process oftherapy, those beliefs change
(43:27):
and it's not my fault and badthings happen and I can be okay.
Still, I'm capable, I'm capable, I'm able to get through this
and those.
Those are adaptive beliefsbecause they're helpful, right,
they help us move forward andthey help us feel fulfilled.
You know, and you had mentionedpreviously about Maslow's
(43:51):
hierarchy of needs yeah, andthat's kind of what this reminds
me of is thatself-actualization is the
fulfillment of the belief inoneself versus the earlier needs
to just survive, like thosebasic have food, have a place to
sleep, shelter yeah, what is itfood?
(44:13):
it's like shelter, warmth food.
What are they?
Michaela (44:18):
um, yeah, um, I'm gonna look it up because I don't
remember what the middle one is.
Because there's, then there'ssomething, and then I think it's
love, and then there'ssomething in between, yeah, okay
, yes, so the the physiologicalneeds, like breathing, food,
shelter, clothing, sleep, thenthere, then, above that, if
(44:39):
that's met, then you can go tolike working on safety and
security, so health, employment,family, you know social ability
.
Then there's love and belonging, friendship, family, intimacy,
self, a sense of connection, andthen self-esteem comes after
that, confidence, achievement,respect of others, the need to
(45:04):
be unique individual, and thenthere's self-actualization.
And then there'sself-actualization and that's
where you know acceptance, yourpurpose, meaning internal inner
potential, creativity lie?
Laura (45:21):
Yeah, so the journey of therapy is the journey of taking
you through meeting each ofthose needs and kind of climbing
this ladder and getting to aplace where you're constantly, I
think, self-actualization.
We should call this a verb.
It's not a place, it's a path.
It's a verb, not a noun, and sothat's something that we
(45:43):
constantly strive for.
But we have to maintain thosebottom tier needs, because those
are the foundation.
Without those, you know, we'rereally just surviving, we're not
thriving.
Yeah.
Michaela (45:58):
Now, I like this and this has, you know, stood the
test of time, if you will.
But I also somewhat believethat in order for you to figure
out some of the safety andsecurity and the love and
belonging things, you kind ofneed to have your own sense of
self-esteem and belief inyourself.
(46:20):
And so I think that you know,though this does make a lot of
sense, I also feel likesometimes, you know, there can
be some, you know, intermixingof some of those.
Laura (46:32):
I don't know.
Maybe it's linear, it's notlinear, maybe it's a circular a
little bit right, it's a wheelof needs, and maybe we should
make that into a thing.
Michaela (46:45):
You guys heard it here now Heard it here, first Wheel
of need.
Laura (46:51):
But I think that's right and I think that they're all
going to come and go as timegoes on, right, like I can't
just satisfy my need for foodand shelter, like one time I
need to do that all day, everyday, right.
And so what we need to do isrecognize that we are dynamic
and constantly moving andconstantly changing, and that a
(47:14):
solution isn't permanent.
Things change, people change,states change throughout the day
.
I might have, you know, anemotional state that I need to
address in that moment, and thenthat doesn't mean that's my
whole day, it's just I'm goingthrough an emotional experience
in this moment and I need to,you know, allow that to go
(47:36):
through me and pass, and then Ican move on to the next thing.
But we get stuck sometimes inthose and we fear that those
emotional states will neverchange and we'll just be stuck
in them forever.
And that's a childhood strategyor that's a childhood belief
system, I should say in themforever.
And that's a childhood strategyor that's a childhood belief
system, I should say, because askids we get stuck in those
moments of dysregulation.
(47:57):
We don't really have the toolsto regulate ourselves.
We need that co-regulation inorder to do that, and that kind
of brings us back to supportingthat kid in real time and as an
adult.
Michaela (48:09):
The therapist is sort of that co-regulator that's very
well said, um, so I love howyou brought it back full circle,
down back to back to myoriginal question, which, again,
this is me and my work, my workand my know what.
(48:30):
You know we're talking about uslike this is what it comes back
to we.
We were, um, I was shoppingwith my sister the other day and
I was like, oh, look at that,the kids would love that.
And oh, the kids would lovethat.
And she's like everything's thekids and I'm like, yeah, kind
of it is what it feels likesometimes nowadays, but it kind
of brings it back to that.
(48:50):
You know, trying to always healmy kids and maybe that's part
of my own trying to fix my stuffthing right, because if I can
do it right for my kids, then mystuff won't have happened right
and that's my stuff I'll haveto work out in therapy.
Laura (49:15):
Yeah, that's a lot of have to work out in therapy.
Yeah, that's.
Yeah, that's a lot of what Iworked out in therapy.
You know, we all have our stuff.
None of us get out of thisunscathed.
We're humans with nervoussystems and we get dysregulated
throughout the day and that'sokay.
And I think that's important torun like recognize Adaptively.
We don't always stay in onestate of mind and when we
(49:41):
realize that we can change ourstate and come back to a state
of regulation, that's power.
Yeah.
Michaela (49:49):
Well, I think, you know, um, I was listening to the
this podcast, um, I think itwas the rachel hollis podcast
and she was talking about how,um, she was driving along and
someone cut her off and like allday long she was dysregulated.
She kind of and I'm probablybutchering this, but, um, you
(50:10):
know, she felt dysregulated.
She didn't really know that,what kind of dysregulated her,
until she traced it back to okay, there was a someone cut me off
in traffic and that made mefeel X, y, z, right, and then so
like we can be fine one minuteand then something can set us
(50:30):
off and it can kind of disruptour day and we may not even
recognize that that that thinghappened and then that's what it
was.
But we can try to get present,ground ourselves at that moment
and we do recognize it.
Maybe we can trace it back andfigure out what it was, that
when we started to feel notgreat.
(50:50):
So we can kind of recognize ourtriggers going forward.
But we may not always know, itmight just kind of happen.
And I let one of the otherthings that I like about, um,
you know, heart math and doingsome of the biofeedback from
heart math is, um, you know,just trying to do these things
(51:11):
and regulate ourselvesconstantly, you know, having a
way of being able to regulateour nervous system and kind of
um, our heart rhythm right andum, that regulation of our
nervous system through our heartis that body up feedback to our
(51:31):
brain.
Even if our brain smoke alarm,is going off, saying danger,
then we calm our body down andour body's nervous system is
saying no, I'm okay.
And that brain tells the brainno, every everything's actually
good.
And you know, there's thisbelief that you know the
electrical state of our heartand our brain is actually kind
(51:54):
of feeding into the regulationof those around us and so we can
kind of influence some peoplein that if we're regulated we
can help others be regulated aswell.
Laura (52:06):
Yeah, for sure.
We are all connected and weneed connection.
That's a major need in ourhierarchy, in our wheel, in our
wheel right, absolutely, and youknow, I think that's a great
place to leave it.
I really appreciate you sharingyour story and being a little
(52:26):
vulnerable today on why are welike this and this?
Was a really great conversation.
Michaela (52:35):
Yeah, this was, I really enjoyed it.
Laura (52:37):
Yes, thank you, and thank you for listening to.
Why Am I Like this?
If you liked our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
your favorite podcast platform.
Follow the show and share itwith your friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, laura Wood and
Mishela Bieber.
Our theme song is Making EndsMeet by Thick as Thieves.
A special thanks to Ben Avery,counseling and Coaching and
(52:59):
Active Healing PsychiatricServices for sponsoring this
show.
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:12):
Hi and I'm Mishayla Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Laura (00:16):
So, M, why are we doing this podcast?
Michaela (00:21):
I am so glad that you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better, how the
things you learned aboutyourself and the world and
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
things about ourselves that wemight wonder about, like why am
I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
(00:41):
Why are my thoughts so negative?
Why do I have to?
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all the time?
Laura (00:49):
Yes, and today we're talking about us.
We're talking why are we likethis, as in you and me, when
we're going to try to answer thefollowing questions why do we
do what we do, how do we becomemore aware of what drives our
behaviors, and what else can wedo to have more control over our
actions?
So hopefully, those last twoare going to have a little bit
(01:09):
more impact on our listenersthan we're trying to work out
our own stuff on the podcast.
But yeah, let's just starttalking about what.
About you?
What is your thing?
Why do you do what you do?
Michaela (01:27):
that's a really good question.
So I I see a lot of clientsthat are trying to like figure
their lives out and I get youknow, I've talked a lot with my
student as well about, like, howI got here.
And if you would have asked mehonestly, like 20 years ago,
(01:47):
that I was going to be in mentalhealth, I would have you know,
I would have said that you'recrazy.
You know, like that was not mything.
I had a plan.
I was going to go back and goto be an NP and go work for this
orthopedist doctor back inIllinois and that that was going
to be that right.
I thought surgery was super cooland just life um went in
(02:10):
different directions.
I ended up as a you know,working in the ER in like rural
Iowa and, um, there was such anunderserved mental health like
outpatient need and my friendwas, like go back, come, come
back to school with me, likecome, get your psych NP.
And I was like sure, let's doit.
(02:32):
Well, then she ended up notdoing it and then I ended up
doing it and I couldn't see mylife going any other way.
Like I, I love being able tohelp people in this way and I
feel like it's just reallybecome my calling and it's the
calling.
I didn't really see that wasthere, but you know I'm really
(02:54):
glad that I ended up here.
Laura (02:56):
That's so cool.
So you didn't like you weren'tsix years old, saying I want to
be a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Michaela (03:04):
No, actually I wanted to do a psychiatric nurse
practitioner.
No, actually I wanted to doneonatal.
When I was like young, likebabies and my first you know I'm
in nursing school and I go tothe like OB ward and my I my
teacher was like are you okay?
You're like white as a ghost.
And I was like I don't knowwhat to do with this tiny little
human being.
(03:24):
You're like white as a ghostand I was like I don't know what
to do with this tiny littlehuman being.
I had no clue.
They were just I.
We didn't have a lot of likeyoung babies in my family or I
wasn't drawn to being aroundthem for some reason, and yeah,
so nope, not, that was not forme, that's so wild, that's great
.
Laura (03:40):
So when you transitioned into mental health, like what is
what's the most surprisingthing for you?
That you know that this turnedout to be your calling.
Like that, this turned out tobe your thing.
Michaela (03:53):
Well, you know, growing up, my mom always said
that I was.
They always called me thepeacemaker, and I'm pretty sure
I'm.
I know you're not like.
You may not be like a bigEnneagram person, but I'm pretty
sure I'm a nine.
I know you're not like, you maynot be like a big Enneagram
person, but I'm pretty sure I'ma nine.
And um, and I didn't see that.
I didn't really see that.
You know, if I went into mentalhealth, I went into healthcare,
(04:14):
I think, because my dad had a,you know, big accident and in in
my childhood and um, thatreally set me in this path, um,
but I think, like, um, I thinkthat I, I w, I like, looking
back, I should have seen that.
You know there was a lot oflike, my uncles had substance
(04:35):
use disorders and you know, themore I learned about like mental
health and like substance use,I was like, oh, this makes sense
for me.
You know, like I understand whyI was called to this and I just
didn't really know it.
And then, um, I have a almostseven year old and he has ADHD
(04:57):
and I've really made my life'swork about him, about helping
him grow, about being the bestparent that I can for him.
I'm going to get emotionalabout that, but you know, I
think that like it's hard andit's challenging and I tell my
patients all the time that I'mwalking this road with you
because I work with so manyparents with kids that are
(05:17):
struggling with ADHD andoppositional defiance and not
knowing how to parent these kidsthat are just so strong wills,
and I walk the road with themand I'm trying, I try to help
them along the way as I workthrough the things myself.
Laura (05:32):
Yeah, well, that's so great, like that you get to
connect with your patients onthat level.
You know what I mean.
Like I think, as a patient, Iwant to go in and know that the
person I'm talking to likereally understands what I'm
going through.
Like, how many times do we feellike we're not with someone who
(05:56):
is giving us the time that weneed or we're not with someone
who is really listening to uswhen we're trying to get
healthcare?
Michaela (06:03):
I hear that a lot and I hear and I get a lot of kids.
I see a lot of kids that end upmedicated for something that
doesn't necessarily, in myopinion, need medication.
Now, I do believe thatmedication can help and you know
, when they're being prescribedthese things, that's not
necessarily the wrong choice.
Prescribed these things, that'snot necessarily the wrong
(06:28):
choice.
It's just that I think thatwhen we're dealing with kids, a
lot of times and maybe this issomething you see too but
parents want to fix the child,but what we can't do is control
another human being's behavior.
We can't make them choose goodchoices, we can't make them do
something different.
We have to understand what'smotivating them to act in the
(06:49):
way that they're acting, so thatwe can support the cause of it,
not the behavior.
And I know that you knowsometimes that parents feel like
they're giving into their kidor they're letting them get away
with things.
But I just oftentimes, if wecan really understand what's
(07:10):
going on for our kid and supportthem at that level, then then
we can stop the behavior beforeit starts.
And that's not always not everykid but like, but certain kids
sometimes.
There is that opportunity tointervene earlier and do it
differently and change how weview the situation.
(07:30):
They're not just trying toannoy us.
They're not just trying todeliberately, you know, get
under our skin or disobey.
There's usually a reason whythey're acting in the way that
they're acting.
Laura (07:44):
Yeah, like I always say, most kids are not just like
malicious jerks.
That's not what's happening.
They don't like to be bothering.
They don't like to feel likepeople don't want them around.
They don't like to feel the waythat they feel when we treat
them, the way that we treat thembased on their behaviors.
That doesn't feel good to themeither, and so a lot of times
(08:06):
they're just out of control,right Like they don't have
control over their own bodiesand their own brains to regulate
themselves.
Michaela (08:15):
And that's a point that I make to parents all the
time.
I'm like your kid makes goodchoices when they're regulated
right and they're like yeah, andI'm like so, let's get them
regulated.
Laura (08:29):
I've loved that.
Michaela (08:30):
And I think I learned a lot about from you know,
talking with you and the booksthat you recommended and
different things and this is notstuff that was taught in NP
school by any means, you know,but these are things that, like
I said, I've learned along theway because of necessity,
because of curiosity of my own.
Laura (08:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
We get interested in the stuffwe're interested in because of
our own stuff, right, Like I'mhearing a through line like,
okay, when you were a kid, yourdad had this accident and needed
health care and you were drawnto that.
That was like a touchstonemoment for you and you that
(09:15):
carried with you throughout yourlife.
Like most of us do what we dobecause of something that
happened in our past, On a levelat least.
Michaela (09:23):
I agree, on a level at least, I agree.
I definitely agree that thatit's we're developing these
behaviors, and from the verybeginning.
Laura (09:37):
Yeah, like most of us, don't just go into something
like, oh, I've never reallythought about this or had any
exposure to it in my life and Ijust decided to do this thing
and it's a completely randomevent.
That's not what happens, right.
Michaela (09:51):
And so I think a lot of the time we act based on
feelings, thoughts, you know, anawareness of what their needs
(10:13):
are.
So they're not only acting onfeelings and reacting to things
or thoughts.
Feelings, you know, it's howyou know, how do we train them
that they, that they don't haveto act on those things, that we,
that we can act on things basedon like what our needs are and
have and like a plan.
Laura (10:36):
Yeah, I the.
What I hear you describing isadaptive information processing.
It's what it's learning fromyour experiences instead of just
reacting to your experiences.
Right, like when we are able toprocess information in an
adaptive and healthy way andwe're able to fully and
concretely understand what'sgoing on with us in a regulated
(10:59):
state, then that informationturns into helpful, usable
experience that teaches us andthat we draw from along the way.
Now, if we interpret thisinformation in a dysregulated
way, in a state of fight orflight from a sense of danger
and threat, then it becomesexperience that we're going to
(11:21):
be reactive to and we're goingto be avoidant of, and we're
going to be constantly trying toreenact a different resolution
to that experience.
Like, for example, I always saylife is a traumatic reenactment
.
But like, for example, if youknow you go into healthcare
because you had a horribleexperience and everything you
(11:43):
want to do is fix thatexperience and everything that
you want to do is again isaround like writing this wrong.
That happened right, so thatcould happen too, that could be
a healthy outlet.
But also, if you're sointerested in like writing this
wrong and you're only focused onyourself, then you're not
(12:04):
really in it in a healthy way,and you're not really going to
be able to feel satisfactionfrom your work Right, because
you're always going to be tryingto replay this wrong that
happened to you and it's nevergoing to be enough.
Michaela (12:15):
Yeah, then it's never about like how can I contribute
beyond myself, which is whatgives you ultimate satisfaction.
It's really how do I fix myself, how do I make this not be what
happened?
Laura (12:27):
to me.
How do I make this not be whathappened to me?
Absolutely, that's a thing thatwe're constantly replaying in
our brains without knowing.
But those things that don't getstored adaptively, those events
and experiences that we hadwhen there was a threat present
and when the threat wasunresolved and we didn't have
(12:49):
the support that we needed toget through it in real time,
then that information is goingto continue to loop around and
round and round until we get adifferent outcome, until we get
a resolution.
And so when we say, how do Ihelp my kids?
Come until we get a resolution.
And so when we say, how do Ihelp my kids, what we can do is
we can offer them the supportthat they need in order to be
(13:11):
regulated through processingthat information.
And so when something really badhappens in a child's life, we
want to be present with them.
Let them tell and retell thatstory and continue to say like,
hey, and you did a great jobhere and you, you know you got
away from the situation that wasscary, and when the fire alarm
(13:32):
got, went off like you knew whatto do and you were able to get
out of the classroom and youwere able to go to the place
where the teacher went and youdid such a great job and you did
exactly what you're supposed todo and even and there was no
fire, it just was a scary event,right, like so we're kind of
working through with them andletting them tell their story.
Like I, when I heard it, Ididn't know what happened.
(13:53):
I thought there was a real fire, and they're going to say that
over and over.
When I heard it, I thoughtthere was a real fire when I
heard it.
And then we want to keep sayinglike, yeah, yeah, you felt
really scared and it turned outand you did exactly what you're
supposed to do and you did agreat job and you got away
safely, right, so we'rereinforcing the helpful stuff
(14:13):
that they did, while we're alsoallowing them to process through
, instead of just saying, yeah,but it wasn't a real fire, so
you're fine, right, right, causethat still, that event was
still this touchstone event forthem.
Like I've seen kids who theydon't know, every time a fire
goes off, a fire alarm goes off,like it's not their first
instinct to think like, oh, thisis a grill, we're just, we're
just practicing.
(14:33):
No, it's their first instinctto say like, oh there's a fire
here, right.
And so the same is true withother school drills, and I've
heard this from kids a lot.
So, like I use that example,because it's a real example that
things that adults think arenot a big deal, right, kids
interpret those things from astate of threat, right.
(14:55):
And so when we experience thatstuff and we experience these
threats and they don't getresolved, that's what we end up
not really learning from in ahealthy way, and we always are
trying to like remedy thatsomehow and reconcile it in our
brains.
Michaela (15:10):
Yeah, and then I like the analogy of the smoke the
like alarm going off, becauseour smoke detector in our brain
is going off.
In those instances our amygdalais going off and it's sending
us that danger signal.
So that's definitely veryfitting.
Laura (15:27):
Yeah, and then they constantly are going to keep
going off when it's not anemergency, right?
So that's the thing thathappens is when we have a thing
that happens to us that's like alife threat, then we take in
all the surroundings.
We do this through our senses.
We take in all the surroundings.
We do this through our senses,right?
We have sight, we have touch,we have smell, we have taste, we
(15:50):
have sound.
Those senses are designed.
The whole entire reason why wehave any of them is to not die,
is to keep us alive, is to seedanger, to smell danger, to hear
it right, all of these thingstell us what's okay and what's
not.
Like, think about, like, ifsomething tastes rotten, like
(16:11):
you don't eat it, right, thattaste is there for a reason.
And so when we have alife-threatening situation, or
one that we think islife-threatening, our brain
basically takes a snapshot ofall the sensory information
that's coming in at that momentand categorizes it as
potentially dangerous, right?
(16:33):
So if the chairs are red, thatmeans red chairs are potentially
dangerous.
If the sound is loud, thatmeans loud sounds are
potentially dangerous.
If the teacher has on a certainperfume, if they walk a certain
way, if they have a certainsmell, you know, even just that
classroom itself.
(16:54):
We're taking in all thisinformation and just
categorizing individual sensoryinputs as potentially dangerous,
because our brain doesn't knowwhich of those things caused the
danger.
Right, it could be any of them.
So we're going to make surethat we're alerting ourselves in
the future.
So then, the next time I'm in asituation where any of those
things occur, my alarm system isgoing to go off again.
(17:17):
My amygdala is going to be likedanger, danger, there's a
threat here, right?
And then I'm going to have whatwe call anxiety for no reason,
because it's not no reason, not.
Michaela (17:28):
Yeah, unless we have the adaptive from our, our, our
parents or a supportive person,like you said, and they're
telling the part of your brainthat stores memory, which is all
kind of talking together, right, and so they're like that, that
part storing memory, and yourparents are saying you know,
that was okay, yeah, and nothingbad happened, and they're
(17:51):
storing that and helping youstore that adaptive information
so that when your brain goes tothe amygdala, danger, and then
it can go to that memory centerand say, hey, is there anything
bad?
Oh, no, no, red chairs are fine, right, like no, no, that's
fine, you know.
So your brain is storing thosememories so that we can, kind of
they can communicate.
And so when you're doing thosethings to help your kiddo have
(18:14):
adaptive information stored andthat, and they've replayed that
image and that situation withyou in a safe space, giving them
what they need to be able to goback and say no, everything was
fine, that was a drill.
Laura (18:29):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Like they close the feedbackloop, right, the amygdala,
everything.
So we start in our lower brain,we start at the bottom, work
our way through the middle,where our memory centers and our
sensory processing informationgoes, and then we work our way
through the top and through thefront, and the front of our
brain is where that cognitioncomes into play and sorts out
the reality of the situation andsays oh, red chairs aren't
(18:51):
dangerous, the fire alarm wentoff because the teachers had a
fire drill that day and it's forus to practice, right.
So now I'm cognitivelyprocessing, so I'm emotionally
processing, then I'm sensoryprocessing, then I'm cognitively
processing.
And so unless I can completethat feedback loop and go all
the way to the front, then I'mgoing to have some maladaptive,
(19:13):
some unhelpfully storedinformation in there that's
going to be reactive later thatI'm going to have an alert
because of later.
Sure, that makes perfect sense.
Michaela (19:24):
Yeah, brains man, you know, the more that we learn
about brains, the more that welearn that everything that they
do is like, first and foremostdriven to provide safety for us.
And so if our kid isdysregulated and they're in
fight or flight or they'regetting stuck there because
(19:46):
their smoke detector is goingoff too easily, you know that's
a sign saying that you know theyneed co-regulation, that they
need that support to help them,not that they're trying to be a
jerk.
Laura (20:02):
They're not just trying to be a jerk, nobody wants to be
a jerk.
They're not just trying to be ajerk.
Nobody wants to be a jerk Like.
I think we assign personalmalice to behaviors that are
upsetting to us.
Why do we do that?
Because we're threatened bythose behaviors and so our alarm
system is going off, and sowhen I'm thinking my kid is
trying to hurt me because hejust wants me to suffer, then
(20:26):
there's that's an indicator,that that's a fire alarm
indicator, right, like becauseno, he doesn't and he's acting
in a way that is inconsistentwith his goals.
But we typically, when we'renot in a regulated state, we
behave in a way that'sinconsistent with our goals
because our goals are wrong,we're confused, we're solving
(20:46):
the wrong problem, and so, whenit comes to regulation this is
one of the reasons why I do whatI do is that adults need to
learn how to regulate themselvestoo, so, like for all of the
kids, that we can help in realtime.
There are enough adults thatnever got that in the first
place, right, and they're havingkids Right.
Michaela (21:10):
And they think that they're okay enough because they
have a job, they make goodmoney, they're doing well enough
, they're functioning Right, andthey don't see, where they can,
where their trauma is impactingtheir life still, where their
past is impacting their lifestill and that the kid is the
traumatic reenactment, thetraumatic reminder of their
(21:33):
experiences in childhood andthere's nothing in our brain
that's telling us that there'sno way of knowing that is what's
happening.
But it is Right.
Laura (21:45):
And we don't know, because it never made it through
that cognitive processing partright.
We only got emotional andsensory input.
We never got the cognitivestuff because it wasn't able to
be worked out in real time.
We just had to suffer alone.
Sure, and when kids sufferalone, those things become
(22:07):
traumatic.
So I heard trauma definedrecently as basically anything
that causes dissociation, andwhen we're suffering alone, we
have no choice but to dissociate.
And so when we're in childhood,and so that's when we check out
and we numb ourselves, we numbourselves to the pain and we
(22:29):
separate ourselves from theworld that is hurting us and we
shut down and we basically justgo away into our own inner world
and create a world that feelssafer for us.
And so when we are sufferingalone in childhood or we're
(22:50):
suffering at the hands of anadult that we trust, we're
really unable to process thisinformation in a healthy way.
It's impossible in that moment.
And so those things cause real,lasting impacts that are going
to come back and be tried to bereenacted later in order to get
a different outcome.
And the first opportunity wehave to do that is when we have
(23:13):
a kid.
Sure.
Michaela (23:16):
But unfortunately then we might feel fear or shame or
guilt, which leads us toavoiding those feelings and
those thoughts, which is why wewant that to just go away.
We want our kid to either justbe okay, we just want those
feelings to go away.
Laura (23:36):
Yeah, we just want it to stop.
We want relief.
And shame is the suppression ofthe self in order to achieve
connection with another.
Shame is designed to suppressyourself.
It's designed to push down yourauthenticity so that you can
connect with the person that youare dependent upon, and so that
(23:59):
might be a dangerous person andI can't authentically be myself
around that person.
So shame, shame's job is topush away my authenticity so
that I can become somebody thatI can, that can be tolerated and
that I can tolerate by thisperson.
Michaela (24:15):
Okay, I've not heard it said that way.
That's really good.
Laura (24:18):
Yeah, and so that shame is really powerful
self-suppressor.
And when we feel it, then we goautomatically into that
dissociated, go away, follow,you know, just end the whole
thing.
We just shut down.
And when we feel guilt, guiltis the sense of I did something
wrong and I'm you know, I'mmessing up because, right, we
(24:41):
feel the shame, and then we shutdown, and then we feel guilty
because we shut down or becausewe handled it wrong, or because
we did this thing, and so it'slike this cycle, and then we
feel guilty, and even if it'snot about parenting, but it's
about other relationships, it'sabout work, maybe it's about
just yourself, and you don'tfeel like you're doing enough
for yourself, you don't feellike you're taking care of
(25:02):
yourself, you don't feel likeyou're taking care of your house
, you don't feel like you'redoing it right.
You're constantly just in thisshame, guilt spiral and this
loop that just continually feedsitself.
Michaela (25:17):
Yeah, that sounds like a really unhealthy place to be
yeah, and we can.
Laura (25:23):
The thing is we can get out of that, we can stop that
cycle by getting regulated, bylearning how to regulate our
nervous systems so that whenthat stuff comes up, we can know
oh, this is something from thepast and I can do something
different.
Now I can change my nervoussystem regulation, I can choose
(25:45):
to regulate myself, and that'ssomething that we learn how to
do over time, because that's notjust, it's not just oh, as soon
as you hear this, you're goingto suddenly, like know how to
regulate your nervous system.
That's not how it works.
Unfortunately, system that'snot how it works.
(26:05):
Unfortunately, it's a timeconsuming, hard process to
rewire this stuff, and so youknow, one of the main reasons
why I do what I do is because ofbecause I know that you can
work through it.
I know that it can work.
I know that you can come out ofthat shame and guilt spiral and
you can turn yourself intosomebody who believes in
(26:26):
yourself and somebody who caresabout yourself and somebody who
knows your competencies andknows your capabilities.
I know that that's possiblebecause I've experienced that
myself.
Michaela (26:36):
Yeah, tell us more about where you, where you like
your whole journey.
Laura (26:42):
So I always wanted to be a therapist, like when I was a
little kid.
I would say that I was going tobe a therapist or an attorney.
And so I still secretly want togo be an attorney, but but I'll
just do one thing for now.
So so I always just wanted todo this, and I don't necessarily
(27:05):
know exactly why, but Iremember feeling growing up.
I remember feeling like orknowing somehow, that if you had
someone there with you and youdidn't have to suffer alone, and
that there was somebody whocared enough about you and who
said I'm here for you, no matterwhat, no matter who you are, no
(27:26):
matter what you think or feelor say or you know, no matter
how you behave, I care about youand I think that you matter.
I somehow knew that if, if thatwere true for everyone, we
would have less suffering.
That's pretty neat for beingyoung.
(27:47):
Well, and I think thatdeveloped over time, right, and
into my late teens and kind ofrecognizing that, especially as
a teenager, that's moreimportant than ever when you're
trying to become independent,right.
And if you are trying to becomeindependent but you don't
believe that you matter and youdon't believe that you have
value and you don't believe thatanyone is going to care about
(28:09):
what you do, you know yourmotivation suffers a little bit
Sometimes.
You know the opposite can betrue.
You can go out to proveeverybody wrong or whatever, but
you're still going to have thatsense inside of you that is,
that something's wrong andsomething's off and you're
always going to be replayingthat.
You're always going to bereenacting it.
And so when I was a young mom, Iwas going through a lot of
(28:36):
really difficult experiences andmy trauma was all coming up and
saying like hey, I have areally hard time regulating my
kids and regulating my emotionsand like why is this so hard?
I must just be terrible andkind of just like having all
these negative thoughts aboutmyself, like I must be.
Fundamentally, and over thecourse of you know 10 years in
(29:05):
therapy and you know six yearsof really good therapy.
I was able to turn thatreenactment around and really
stop trying to solve the pastand really able to really be
able to recognize myself in thepresent and like identify, like
(29:27):
who I am and what I'm worth andwhy I'm here and and what I can
offer and be a fulfilled personin my life.
And I've seen the work, workand so I went to be the same
kind of therapist that helped me.
That's really this is my life'straumatic reenactment is I
(29:48):
wanted to be a therapist whocould help others, the way that
my therapist helped me andeverything that I've learned and
I know all the adaptive thatI've learned over the years of
like that you know it's not myfault that someone else hurts me
, like that's information that Ididn't know.
I remember distinctly the daythat I learned that I had the
(30:10):
right to say no and that itwasn't bad to say no and let
people down Right.
I remember distinctly likelearning these pieces of
adaptive information and howthey changed me, and so that's
why I love EMDR and that's whyyou know adaptive information
processing is the theory behindEMDR therapy, which is a trauma
therapy that I practice, and youknow, knowing all of this stuff
(30:35):
and how effective it can be isreally what drives me effective
it can be is really what drivesme.
Michaela (30:46):
Yeah, that's really deep and thanks for sharing such
.
You know, your personal journeyand everything.
So what do you think about EMDR?
So there's a lot of adaptive, Iknow you know.
Then you're there's also, youknow, a a lot of um cognitive
pieces to EMDR.
Was there one thing about EMDRthat was like so powerful for
(31:07):
you?
Laura (31:10):
I think for me the most powerful piece was um, was
actually like ego state or likeparts work.
Was actually like ego state orlike parts work.
So stuff inside, so we all have.
So parts is dissociation work,right.
So I was a dissociative personin the past.
(31:33):
That was how I coped with stuff.
I had dissociative processesconstantly, and so dissociation
is that disconnection fromoneself.
So disconnection from yourselfor from the world is as a coping
mechanism to either numb oravoid or escape pain and painful
experiences.
And so incorporating that workand really recognizing and
(31:58):
treating the dissociative partsof me that were struggling and
stuck was the most helpful thing.
So the way this works is peoplehave maybe heard of similarly
called like inner child work oryou know, or or you know working
I don't like this term, butlike reparenting yourself or
(32:19):
whatever.
So those are things that kindof may be more commonplace but
are a little bit different thanwhat I'm talking about here,
which is identifying the partsof oneself that feel stuck in
time and space.
Feel stuck in time and space.
(32:45):
So we all have aspects of ourpersonality that didn't fully
develop past a traumaticexperience, and some of us
experience those as just likemood states or what we call ego
states, and others experiencethose as dissociated parts of a
self, and others experiencethose as dissociated parts of a
self, and so on a spectrum weall might say oh well, part of
(33:09):
me feels like I really love togo out with my friends, but
another part of me just wants tostay home in bed and watch TV.
Right, yeah, we have theseinner conflict parts that don't
agree and that can happen allthe time.
So those are more fluid, kindof ego-steady parts of the self,
but dissociated parts are moreseparated, they're more
(33:30):
compartmentalized and they don'thave access to all the same
information that a present selfwould have.
So a part that is stuck inchildhood, a part of oneself
that is dissociated based on atraumatic experience, might
experience themselves in theworld as a child or a teenager
(33:51):
experience might experiencethemselves in the world as a
child or a teenager.
And so I have kind of a funnyexample of this.
Like one time this was maybelike 15, 15 years ago and I had
my little kid yeah, my kids werereally little and I was at like
the grocery store or somethingand I saw someone I knew from
high school and I immediatelylike turned into a teenager.
I just like felt like a littlekid.
(34:11):
I felt like I was school and Iimmediately like turned into a
teenager.
I just like felt like a littlekid.
I felt like I was just, and Ibecame terrified because there's
this person that I knew from um, from a time that was difficult
for me, and I I literally hid.
I went and like hid behindsomething until they passed and
then I like escaped, I like ranaway from the store because I
(34:31):
was so afraid.
Yeah, I was a fully grown,adult woman with like children.
What was going on, that was, Iwas being hijacked by a part of
myself that felt really youngand stuck and didn't know how to
cope with the situation and thethreat that was present in that
moment.
Now, if I were talking tosomeone about this today, I
(34:54):
would recommend that we kind ofexplore the perspective of the
part that was scared, right andso to allow that part to kind of
speak and share what washappening for that part of me at
that time and hopefully wecould get some insight and
whatever else.
And then the other thing that Iwould do is I would learn how
to recognize that alarm systemgoing off, because when we get
(35:15):
hijacked by a part of ourselvesthat feels really young.
That's an indicator thatthere's an alarm system going
off right, that there's a threatbeing sensed in that moment,
and so I would say, okay, let'slearn how to recognize that
alarm and find a way to regulateour nervous system in that
moment.
Use some grounding skills.
Use some self-regulation toolsthat you may have learned in
(35:39):
therapy, whether those arecognitive tools like doing math
problems or counting backwardsfrom 10 or remembering your
address or something like thatSomething to get that cognitive
part of your brain back online.
Or sometimes it's sensory MaybeI carry essential oils and I
smell the smell of mint orlavender or something like that.
So those are really goodgrounding skills.
(35:59):
But grounding skills are a wayto help your nervous system
settle, yeah.
Michaela (36:04):
So what I'm hearing you say is that, through therapy
, what could happen if thatincidence is replayed out over
again?
You might get the alarm systemto go off, your smoke detectors
going off, but instead you canstop, ground yourself, get back
(36:25):
into the present moment so thatyou can then remain in control.
You can then remain in controland that part of you that wanted
to go hide maybe doesn't haveto go hide because you can be
back in the present moment andbe able to calm your nervous
system.
Laura (36:44):
Yes, and that's a really simple example, not a complex
one, right?
So like this is just, this islike the simplest of examples to
demonstrate, like what I'mtalking about here, but this can
be a far more complex processfor people and much more
difficult than you know.
The situation that I describedjust to kind of disclaimer.
Michaela (37:04):
Yeah, that's good to know, but I think that, like,
there's a lot of people that areout there that would probably
identify with the experiencethat you described and, um, in
some way we've all you know, alot of us have probably
experienced some situation wherewe whether we write, we
(37:28):
probably don't recognize itwithout therapy, but we we've
had situations where we'vereacted in a way that was very
unlike ourselves, our normal,typical selves, and being able
to use those grounding skillsand knowing that we can have
control is empowering.
Laura (37:46):
Absolutely it is, and that's one of the most helpful
things that I've learned throughtherapy is grounding skills and
learning what works for me,right?
Not everything works foreveryone.
Michaela (37:59):
Right.
Laura (38:00):
I'm not a well.
I used to be much more adverseto like breathing exercises
because I felt like they wouldjust make me feel anxious.
But I learned about bellybreathing Instead of breathing
for my chest, I breathe for mybelly and that helps, right.
(38:22):
So it's like not everythingworks for everyone.
We have to practice andrecognize like, oh well, that
wasn't helpful, that didn't work.
And then we can use what we'relearning and adapt to it more
and say, okay, well, you know,maybe chest breathing, maybe try
it a different way, right.
So we adapt it to ourselves andwe practice.
(38:42):
And there's a thousand milliongrounding skills out there,
right?
Michaela (38:48):
Yes, I find myself in session with people and being
like, well, let's talk aboutbreathing, and I'm like, where
do I start?
Which breathing skill should Istart with?
Oh, I have like I just want tothrow all of this information at
you and I'm like, okay, slowdown, Just give them one or two
things today.
We'll revisit it and see how itgoes.
But like there's just so manythings that people can use, that
(39:10):
it's it's.
It can be overwhelming.
Laura (39:12):
And one of my favorites is a calm place, and you know
it's part of the protocol tocreate a calm place.
We're supposed to like name it,and I find that people get
caught up on, like what the nameis going to be, Like it has to
be something creative, and I'mlike, no, it doesn't, I just
(39:32):
call mine the calm place.
Like I'm not a creative person,you can just name it that,
right?
Yeah, and so you're creating aspace of visualization that
gives you a sense of relief in amoment where you need it.
That's it.
You're not fixing whateverproblem is facing you.
It's not about that.
It's not a long-term solution.
This is a short-term solutionfor a short-term problem, which
(39:54):
is that you're dysregulated inthis moment and that you need to
regulate yourself in order tofeel safe again.
Michaela (39:59):
Yeah, Because we make good decisions when we're
regulated.
Laura (40:03):
I love that.
I'm going to start using thatall the time, Just like I stole
Caitlin's.
We don't do things that don'tmake sense.
We make good decisions whenwe're regulated.
I love that that's so true.
Michaela (40:15):
So I'm thinking like back of like you know, kind of I
can't remember exactly what itwas that you said, but it you
know, in our past, like we gothrough all these things and we
get kind of stuck and we can'tfully develop in certain
situations, and do you thinkthat that's why some people have
(40:37):
so many cognitive, likecognitive distortions or like
negative thinking, right, Like,um, you think about, like all
the like, all the reasons whypeople blame their situation.
They blame well, all thereasons why people blame their
situation.
They blame, well, I couldn'tmake this happen because, you
know, I didn't have enough moneyand I didn't have enough time
(40:58):
and I didn't have enough, um,you know what, X, Y, Z, right, I
didn't have the support.
And so they they kind of likewe, we, we developed this, you
know, thought process where,like it's never, it's never
enough, we can never have enoughto externally to do what we
need to do, Right, but I think,like when you kind of described
(41:23):
your transition through therapy,the way that you view the world
seemed to have changed.
Right, it did.
You developed passion anddetermination and self-belief in
yourself.
That stuff was developedthrough you changing and
developing these adaptivethought processes.
(41:45):
Is that fair?
Is that something?
Laura (41:48):
Yeah, I think that's really well said.
Actually, I think that you'reexactly right that when we are
stuck in trauma time, when we'restuck in these thought
processes and these loops much,we are causing this external
stuff to happen, right.
(42:15):
So we're sort of we're alongfor the ride, if you will, in
childhood, whereas when webecome adults and fully develop
and grow up, then we're driving.
But when you're experiencinglike chronic toxic stress or
trauma or abuse or you knowwhatever it is that you're
experiencing in childhood,that's that's causing you to
(42:37):
have to stop that developmentand just not die Right, that
becomes the priority.
It's not about development,it's just about survival ever
caused.
That is basically the thing thatyou're going to replay over and
over and over until you resolvethe stuff in therapy and then
(43:01):
your belief about the thing willchange, right.
So the thing that is happeningto you your belief about it is
usually negative andself-focused about.
It is usually negative andself-focused, like it's my fault
or I couldn't do anything, I'mhelpless, I'm useless, I'm not
good enough, et cetera, etcetera.
And then through the process oftherapy, those beliefs change
(43:27):
and it's not my fault and badthings happen and I can be okay.
Still, I'm capable, I'm capable, I'm able to get through this
and those.
Those are adaptive beliefsbecause they're helpful, right,
they help us move forward andthey help us feel fulfilled.
You know, and you had mentionedpreviously about Maslow's
(43:51):
hierarchy of needs yeah, andthat's kind of what this reminds
me of is thatself-actualization is the
fulfillment of the belief inoneself versus the earlier needs
to just survive, like thosebasic have food, have a place to
sleep, shelter yeah, what is itfood?
(44:13):
it's like shelter, warmth food.
What are they?
Michaela (44:18):
um, yeah, um, I'm gonna look it up because I don't
remember what the middle one is.
Because there's, then there'ssomething, and then I think it's
love, and then there'ssomething in between, yeah, okay
, yes, so the the physiologicalneeds, like breathing, food,
shelter, clothing, sleep, thenthere, then, above that, if
(44:39):
that's met, then you can go tolike working on safety and
security, so health, employment,family, you know social ability
.
Then there's love and belonging, friendship, family, intimacy,
self, a sense of connection, andthen self-esteem comes after
that, confidence, achievement,respect of others, the need to
(45:04):
be unique individual, and thenthere's self-actualization.
And then there'sself-actualization and that's
where you know acceptance, yourpurpose, meaning internal inner
potential, creativity lie?
Laura (45:21):
Yeah, so the journey of therapy is the journey of taking
you through meeting each ofthose needs and kind of climbing
this ladder and getting to aplace where you're constantly, I
think, self-actualization.
We should call this a verb.
It's not a place, it's a path.
It's a verb, not a noun, and sothat's something that we
(45:43):
constantly strive for.
But we have to maintain thosebottom tier needs, because those
are the foundation.
Without those, you know, we'rereally just surviving, we're not
thriving.
Yeah.
Michaela (45:58):
Now, I like this and this has, you know, stood the
test of time, if you will.
But I also somewhat believethat in order for you to figure
out some of the safety andsecurity and the love and
belonging things, you kind ofneed to have your own sense of
self-esteem and belief inyourself.
(46:20):
And so I think that you know,though this does make a lot of
sense, I also feel likesometimes, you know, there can
be some, you know, intermixingof some of those.
Laura (46:32):
I don't know.
Maybe it's linear, it's notlinear, maybe it's a circular a
little bit right, it's a wheelof needs, and maybe we should
make that into a thing.
Michaela (46:45):
You guys heard it here now Heard it here, first Wheel
of need.
Laura (46:51):
But I think that's right and I think that they're all
going to come and go as timegoes on, right, like I can't
just satisfy my need for foodand shelter, like one time I
need to do that all day, everyday, right.
And so what we need to do isrecognize that we are dynamic
and constantly moving andconstantly changing, and that a
(47:14):
solution isn't permanent.
Things change, people change,states change throughout the day
.
I might have, you know, anemotional state that I need to
address in that moment, and thenthat doesn't mean that's my
whole day, it's just I'm goingthrough an emotional experience
in this moment and I need to,you know, allow that to go
(47:36):
through me and pass, and then Ican move on to the next thing.
But we get stuck sometimes inthose and we fear that those
emotional states will neverchange and we'll just be stuck
in them forever.
And that's a childhood strategyor that's a childhood belief
system, I should say in themforever.
And that's a childhood strategyor that's a childhood belief
system, I should say, because askids we get stuck in those
moments of dysregulation.
(47:57):
We don't really have the toolsto regulate ourselves.
We need that co-regulation inorder to do that, and that kind
of brings us back to supportingthat kid in real time and as an
adult.
Michaela (48:09):
The therapist is sort of that co-regulator that's very
well said, um, so I love howyou brought it back full circle,
down back to back to myoriginal question, which, again,
this is me and my work, my workand my know what.
(48:30):
You know we're talking about uslike this is what it comes back
to we.
We were, um, I was shoppingwith my sister the other day and
I was like, oh, look at that,the kids would love that.
And oh, the kids would lovethat.
And she's like everything's thekids and I'm like, yeah, kind
of it is what it feels likesometimes nowadays, but it kind
of brings it back to that.
(48:50):
You know, trying to always healmy kids and maybe that's part
of my own trying to fix my stuffthing right, because if I can
do it right for my kids, then mystuff won't have happened right
and that's my stuff I'll haveto work out in therapy.
Laura (49:15):
Yeah, that's a lot of have to work out in therapy.
Yeah, that's.
Yeah, that's a lot of what Iworked out in therapy.
You know, we all have our stuff.
None of us get out of thisunscathed.
We're humans with nervoussystems and we get dysregulated
throughout the day and that'sokay.
And I think that's important torun like recognize Adaptively.
We don't always stay in onestate of mind and when we
(49:41):
realize that we can change ourstate and come back to a state
of regulation, that's power.
Yeah.
Michaela (49:49):
Well, I think, you know, um, I was listening to the
this podcast, um, I think itwas the rachel hollis podcast
and she was talking about how,um, she was driving along and
someone cut her off and like allday long she was dysregulated.
She kind of and I'm probablybutchering this, but, um, you
(50:10):
know, she felt dysregulated.
She didn't really know that,what kind of dysregulated her,
until she traced it back to okay, there was a someone cut me off
in traffic and that made mefeel X, y, z, right, and then so
like we can be fine one minuteand then something can set us
(50:30):
off and it can kind of disruptour day and we may not even
recognize that that that thinghappened and then that's what it
was.
But we can try to get present,ground ourselves at that moment
and we do recognize it.
Maybe we can trace it back andfigure out what it was, that
when we started to feel notgreat.
(50:50):
So we can kind of recognize ourtriggers going forward.
But we may not always know, itmight just kind of happen.
And I let one of the otherthings that I like about, um,
you know, heart math and doingsome of the biofeedback from
heart math is, um, you know,just trying to do these things
(51:11):
and regulate ourselvesconstantly, you know, having a
way of being able to regulateour nervous system and kind of
um, our heart rhythm right andum, that regulation of our
nervous system through our heartis that body up feedback to our
(51:31):
brain.
Even if our brain smoke alarm,is going off, saying danger,
then we calm our body down andour body's nervous system is
saying no, I'm okay.
And that brain tells the brainno, every everything's actually
good.
And you know, there's thisbelief that you know the
electrical state of our heartand our brain is actually kind
(51:54):
of feeding into the regulationof those around us and so we can
kind of influence some peoplein that if we're regulated we
can help others be regulated aswell.
Laura (52:06):
Yeah, for sure.
We are all connected and weneed connection.
That's a major need in ourhierarchy, in our wheel, in our
wheel right, absolutely, and youknow, I think that's a great
place to leave it.
I really appreciate you sharingyour story and being a little
(52:26):
vulnerable today on why are welike this and this?
Was a really great conversation.
Michaela (52:35):
Yeah, this was, I really enjoyed it.
Laura (52:37):
Yes, thank you, and thank you for listening to.
Why Am I Like this?
If you liked our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
your favorite podcast platform.
Follow the show and share itwith your friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, laura Wood and
Mishela Bieber.
Our theme song is Making EndsMeet by Thick as Thieves.
A special thanks to Ben Avery,counseling and Coaching and
(52:59):
Active Healing PsychiatricServices for sponsoring this
show.
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