August 8, 2024 • 54 mins
Struggling to understand why focus issues seem to control your life or the life of someone you love? Discover the underlying causes of attention struggles, from ADHD and anxiety to depression and OCD, as we dissect how these conditions overlap and mimic each other. By the end of this episode, you'll gain clarity on how stress and overwhelm can disguise themselves as focus issues, helping you pinpoint the real root of the problem.
Ever wonder how to create a calm, supportive environment for a child with ADHD? This episode unpacks the importance of emotional regulation, detailing how parenting approaches can either alleviate or exacerbate a child's impulsivity and emotional dysregulation. We also dive into the impact of technology on young minds, offering mindful screen time management strategies to foster healthy brain development and sustained attention spans.
Learn practical techniques for fostering internal motivation and effective task management in children. From breaking tasks into manageable parts to maintaining consistent expectations and consequences, we provide actionable tips to help your child develop organizational skills and autonomy. Whether you're a parent, teacher, or someone keen to understand mental health and productivity better, this episode promises valuable insights and strategies you won't want to miss. Don't forget to rate, review, and share this episode with anyone who could benefit from these enlightening discussions.
Laura's Free Course on Emotional Development and Regulation:
https://benavieri.com/neuroception-sign-up/
This show is sponsored by:
Core Self
Benavieri Counseling & Coaching
www.benavieri.com
Active Healing Psychiatric Services
www.activehealingpsych.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura (00:00):
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:09):
Hi and I'm M Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
So, mashaela, why?
Laura (00:15):
are we doing this podcast?
Michaela (00:17):
I am so glad you asked .
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better how the
things you learned aboutyourself and the world in
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this those random things
about ourselves that we mightwonder about.
Why am I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
Why are my thoughts so negative?
(00:38):
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all the time?
Laura (00:42):
Yes, and today we are talking about attention and
focus and ADHD and all of thosethings.
So we are going to try toanswer the following questions
what can cause focus issues, howdoes technology affect our
attention and what can we do toreduce the impact of this poor
(01:03):
focus on our lives?
So let's get into it.
Let's start with what causesfocus issues.
Michaela (01:11):
Yeah, so thinking about focus, right.
So first we think about ADHD.
Right, that's the most commonthing that we might think about
when somebody is like I can'tfocus, it must be ADHD.
So ADHD is a really commoncause.
It starts in childhood usuallyand it's predominantly
(01:35):
categorized by difficulties withinattention, difficulty with
hyperactivity and difficultywith impulsivity.
So that's probably one of thereally big common causes.
But I think about other thingsthat can mimic ADHD, and so
anxiety and depression are bigthings that can impact our
(01:59):
ability to focus.
And so you know, if we'rethinking about a million things
we talked about anxiety lastweek if our brain is racing and
we're just having all theseworry thoughts, we're going to
try to sit down and do a projector do our work and we're going
to be drifting back off to thoseworry thoughts all the time,
and that can feel like focus inattention issues, and it is, but
(02:20):
it's not because of ADHD.
It's caused by this distractionin our brain.
Laura (02:27):
Yeah, one of the symptoms of depression is
inattention, is the inability tofocus.
Another thing that comes up isOCD the inability to calm your
thoughts down and you'reconstantly obsessing or have
compulsions to do things beforeyou can do other things.
So those things can bedistracting.
(02:48):
Another thing is anxiety.
Overthinking is a big thingthat I hear from clients about
not being able to focus, likeI'm overthinking about
everything and that's almostlike hyper-focus right.
So I think we can almost getconfused.
Where we're hyper-focused onsomething, which is also a
(03:09):
symptom of ADHD, is sometimesthat absorption right, where you
can get hyper-focused on stuff.
So, as we're talking about this, I am reminded of the analogy
that the DSM, which is ourDiagnostic and Statistical
Manual of Mental Diseases andDisorders, that we use to
diagnose.
Analogy that the DSM, which isour diagnostic and statistical
manual of mental diseases anddisorders, that we use to
diagnose and categorize andclassify mental illness.
(03:31):
It's like a menu.
It's like a menu at an Italianrestaurant, right, like there's
seven ingredients but they'reall just mixed up in different
ways to get different dishes.
Like, is baked ziti, reallythat different from lasagna?
Like not really.
If you actually look into it,like if I make those two dishes,
(03:51):
I'm using a lot of the sameingredients.
I'm just mixing them up in adifferent way, and so, with
these different diagnoses thatcome with the lack of focus and
that come with that focus is apart of it's not always ADHD.
A lot of the time, theinattention of it is the
inattention or the fragmentedattention or the inability to
(04:16):
focus on one thing at a time.
That's a symptom of something,and it's just one of those
things where that's a symptom ofsomething.
And it's just one of thosethings where I feel like at some
point we can all say, oh, Ithink I have this, like I must
have ADHD.
Like how many people say thisoh, I'm so ADHD today, or like
I'm so whatever, I'm all overthe place, right, and so that's
(04:39):
actually can be a feature ofjust stress and overwhelm.
Michaela (04:43):
For sure.
The other thing that I like Ireally think that one of the
things that overlaps the most isactually ADHD and bipolar
disorder.
Say more about that.
So there's so many people thatcome in and either have been
told they have bipolar disorderor ADHD and it might.
When we're doing the evaluation, it comes out that, you know,
(05:06):
maybe it really wasn't what theythought it was.
Um, so you know, I think thatlike people come in and they're
like oh my gosh, um, my emotionsslip like this and just at the
snap of a finger, and like I'mjust all over the place, I must
be bipolar.
And I'm like, okay, well, itcould be bipolar, but let's,
(05:28):
let's break it down.
And a lot of the times, like wecome out and we're like you know
, there's a lot of misnomersabout, you know, mood disorders
and mental health and there's alot of like stigma tied to
things, and so, like you know,but just because your emotions,
you know, flip, you know, reallyquickly, doesn't mean that you
have bipolar disorder.
(05:49):
Bipolar disorder is reallyactually categorized by this
elevated or euphoric mood tiedwith high energy, and it lasts
for days.
Right, you're seeing cycles andpatterns.
It's not something that flipsat the drop of a hat.
That's usually, in myexperience, other things, but
(06:13):
ADHD is one of those things thatyou can have those really
impulsive mood switches likewhere you're all of a sudden you
know things are great and thensomething triggers you to be
irritable all of a sudden, andso you know that impulsive
irritability can be a really bigfeature of ADHD, and so there's
a lot of confusion between thetwo.
Laura (06:35):
And just a lack of regulation in general, like a
lack of the ability to slow downand calm down and bring
yourself back to the present.
I see a lot of focus issues inclients who have dissociative
processes.
So our brain is inherentlydissociative.
We're all dissociative.
Everybody's brains dissociatebecause it's a coping skill.
(06:56):
It's the reason why you candrive home and then forget how
you got there and I don't meanlike when you're driving under
the influence or something.
I mean a regular, healthyperson who is driving and gets
home from work.
And then it's like, oh my gosh,like I totally don't remember
that whole entire drive becauseI was so distracted by thinking
(07:18):
about other things.
Like that's a dissociativeresponse.
They're in that hypnotic stateyes, that's a good way to put it
, that hypnotic state.
And then also dissociation comesup when we are in a great deal
of pain and we're trying to.
Let's say, I have a super badheadache and I'm trying to close
my eyes and think aboutsomething else in order to
(07:40):
distract from my headache.
That's a dissociative processthat I'm using Anytime I'm doing
guided imagery or meditation.
That can be dissociativeprocess that I'm using Anytime
I'm doing guided imagery ormeditation.
That can be dissociative inthat hypnotic way where, let's
say, I'm using my calm place,guided imagery in my head and
I'm saying, oh, I'm going toescape to this other world and
just feel the feelings of thisother world.
(08:01):
I'm dissociating, but I'm doingit on purpose, it's not
compulsory and it's not outsideof my control.
So there's a difference between, just like there's a difference
between, you know, like, ahappy mood and euphoria, and
there's a difference betweenbeing sad and having depression.
Just because we do these thingsdoesn't mean that we have, um,
you know, symptoms of, or itdoesn't mean that we can really
(08:22):
classify ourselves as havingthis disorder.
But anytime our brain is usingdissociative processes to kind
of get through the day or getthrough our life, we're going to
have a little bit of adifficulty paying attention to
the present, because inherently,that's the point of
dissociation is to not stay inthe present, is to not, you know
(08:43):
, notice what's going on aroundme, to not focus my attention on
this thing.
It's focusing my attention onsomething that is a little bit
easier.
Michaela (08:54):
or mindless or whatever.
Right, that makes a lot ofsense.
So I so like that makes methink of, like how do you, how
do you diagnose what's going on?
Well, you go see a professionalwho can help you tease this out
, to see what's really kind ofgoing on.
And we use the DSM criteria toinform decision making and,
(09:16):
honestly, most of the timepeople have more than one thing
going on at one time.
Like it's very rare that I havea single disorder, single, you
know, problem, and so you knowit might be anxiety and ADHD, it
might be bipolar and ADHD, andso that kind of is hard to tease
out on your own.
(09:36):
And so talking to a professionalabout those things, so that we
can get a good diagnosis andevaluation to decide how to best
treat you, because you know ifit's ADHD, it's, you know, one
kind of treatment and if it'sbipolar disorder or depression
or anxiety, it's a totallydifferent treatment plan.
And so you know, having thatgood diagnosis and evaluation is
(09:58):
really important.
And so usually it's done in asystematic way to kind of look
at all of the things that aregoing on, to kind of kind of
have a better understanding ofexactly what things, what puzzle
pieces fit together.
Another thing that I use istechnology to can help with
(10:23):
diagnosing ADHD looking at, youknow, attention, focus, spatial
planning, reaction times, thenumber of errors that you make,
how many times you, you know,click when you're not supposed
to or not click when you'resupposed to, and so kind of like
looking at all of those things.
It that doesn't that that testdoesn't actually make the
diagnosis, but it addsinformation to you, information
(10:45):
to kind of help us put thosepuzzle pieces together.
Laura (10:49):
Well, and that's another thing that we can use when we
use technology to diagnose or toadd information.
I like what you said it's notthe diagnostic tool itself, but
it's to add information to helpus make that determination.
When I use neurofeedback, I amable to kind of take an
assessment, like a snapshot ofyour brain ahead of time to
(11:12):
determine, okay, what's yourbrain doing when it's just asked
to do nothing?
That's the whole assessment ishey, do nothing and sit there
and let your brain do what itnormally does, and I'm just
going to check out what's.
I'm going to take a picture.
Basically, I'm going to say,okay, what does your brain do
when it's doing nothing?
And what we see with ADHD brainsis often a lot of ironically
(11:33):
slow wave activity in theprefrontal cortex and in the
frontal cortex, and the reasonwhy that's important is because
what's happening is the middleand the back of our brain is
sending messages to the front.
So it's sending the messagesdon't start in the front, they
end in the front, and once theyget to this slow activity, it's
(11:55):
like, you know, throwingsomething into, like jelly,
where it just slows.
So it's like all the ideas aregoing in, they're going in,
they're going in, but then thislike slow jelly sort of just
absorbs them.
And then they're like oh, likeI'm.
And then the middle and theback of your brain is still
sending all these signals andit's working really fast and
these impulsive emotions andthings are coming up from the
(12:15):
back of your brain and from themiddle of your brain and they're
saying hey, this is an idea,hey, this is an idea.
And then the front is justcatching them and slowing them
all down, oh my gosh.
Michaela (12:25):
That reminds me like when I see kids that have ADHD
and like you can tell that theyhave this thought and it's like
their brain is going so fast buttheir mouth cannot figure out
like it's gone before they canput it.
Say it.
Laura (12:39):
That's exactly right.
It's like.
It's like start, start, start,start, start.
But they don't like ever finisha thought or finish an idea or
finish a complete sentence, likeit can't.
It doesn't get to make its fullcircle in the brain, right, it
doesn't get to go through theprefrontal cortex and complete
its journey into, like, a fullyformulated idea or task or
(12:59):
action.
Because the prefrontal cortex,that's where all the work gets
done, that's your executivefunctioning, that's like your um
, that's your breaks, right,that's the stuff that says like
okay, yes, execute this idea ordon't execute this idea, um, and
it's fullest function.
And we don't see that happeningwith an ADHD brain.
(13:20):
We see the opposite happening,where the stuff is just kind of
floating around in there and itjust does what it does.
Michaela (13:26):
Right, so that we also see that like that can cause if
we don't have good workingbreaks, it can cause a lot of
emotional dysregulation becausewe're so impulsive with our
emotions we don't we're having athought and we don't have the
time to just, you know, stopourselves from throwing that
(13:48):
remote control because we're somad at our video game or that
toy or those Legos won't get puttogether.
Or you know, our computer, asan adult, like we can't get our
computer to do this technologything that we it's supposed to
do and it's just not workingright and it makes us so mad we
want to take the computer andjust throw it Right, and so it
(14:09):
can create a lot of impulsiveemotional responses.
We might yell at people, wemight get, you know, into fights
because of these big feelingsthat we have that we don't have
those breaks to stop.
Laura (14:23):
Yeah, and that can then lead to chronic stress, right?
So with our childhoodexperiences, we need to have
some level of stability, somelevel of attunement and some
level of calm, and when we haveADHD, our brain is really
(14:45):
chaotic and is really causing usto behave in a chaotic way, and
then that can sort of influenceour environment to be less
stable.
When I think about kids whohave ADHD, I think about their
perception, the people'sperception of them, and then the
messages that they get back inreturn, and that makes me feel
(15:07):
really sad sometimes becausewe're blaming this kid for their
behavior when they really don'thave control over their
behavior.
We need to be able to executethis attunement, to be able to
say okay, I see that this ischaos right now and we're going
to slow down and we're going todo that on purpose, instead of
the blame and shame that oftenaccompanies a kid with ADHD.
Michaela (15:29):
A hundred percent.
I mean, I just think it's sofunny.
So our kid does something thatis wrong, it makes us angry, and
then we're allowed to yell atthem, but they can't yell and
have feelings back at us.
That would be ridiculous, right.
Yell at them, but they can'tyell and have feelings back at
us.
That would be ridiculous, right.
(15:51):
Like we, we have to create we,we have to purposefully create
stability with our own emotionalresponses to things and we have
to be cautious about how we'retalking to these kids, because I
think that one of the biggestthings that I see is that kids
that grow up in households wherethere's a lot of negative
reinforcement, it creates a lotof poor self-esteem issues in
(16:11):
these kids.
So you're saying constantlystop that, don't touch that.
Why are you doing that?
Oh, my gosh, you can't listen,why won't you just listen to me?
And you just get all thisnegative feedback.
These kids just get all thisnegative feedback and that it
can't be good for theirself-esteem.
Right, and it's hard for us asparents.
(16:31):
I, I, I my kid was helping,wanted to help me clean and he
accidentally broke the towelholder and I was just like
instantly irritated because I'mlike why would you pull on the
thing?
And I wanted to get angry.
I wanted to be like, I wantedto yell, but I was like why
would you pull on the thing?
And I wanted to get angry.
I wanted to be like, I wantedto yell, but I was like, no,
he's sitting there going.
Oh mom, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,I'm sorry.
And I'm like, yes, it's okay,you know, and I'm having to rein
(16:54):
myself back in.
It's just a towel holder whocares, really.
But in the moment, you're likeI'm trying to do 100 things,
you're not helping, you'remaking it harder for me to do
this, and so this is really hard.
This is a skill that you haveto practice and you're going to
mess up a million times, but wehave to be able to help these
kids.
(17:14):
We don't call them names, youknow, even though we want to,
even though we want to, becausethey're, they seem lazy, right
and unproductive, and you'relike just get, just, it's not
that hard, just do the thing,just take a shower, you know,
and so it's really challenging.
Laura (17:34):
It is really challenging and I think we can do a better
job at being patient withourselves too, in those
reactions right and slow down.
Just because my immediatereaction and my instinct or the
reaction that is triggered bythe break of the towel holder
doesn't mean I have to go withthat and I'm not in a hurry, I
don't have to respondimmediately.
(17:56):
No one's going to die, even ifsomething's spilling or even if
something's breaking.
Like I need to make sure thatmy priority is to educate and to
connect with and to make I'mraising a person.
I'm, I'm, I'm nurturing thisperson's mind.
This person's mind is dependenton my reaction right now,
(18:19):
whether or not it's going to bepositive or negative, whether
it's going to perpetuate thisfuture dysregulation and
disruption, or if it's going tobe positive or negative, whether
it's going to perpetuate thisfuture dysregulation and
disruption, or if it's going topotentially act as a bridge to
continually building thoseskills in their prefrontal
cortex of personalaccountability and also
(18:39):
self-forgiveness.
Right, those are very, veryimportant things.
Your kid already knows thatthey did something wrong, right?
Like you say, the kid's upset.
They're like I'm sorry, I'msorry, I'm sorry, I know I
messed up.
I know I messed up Me, likeyelling at them and blaming them
and shaming them isn't actuallygoing to help them.
No.
Michaela (18:55):
But I think that there are some kids like, if it would
have been my other kid, itcould have been a totally
different reaction.
It wouldn't have been a totallydifferent reaction.
It wouldn't have been, I'msorry.
My guess is it would have beenlike anger.
Right, it could have been adifferent response, because
they're they're trying toprotect themselves, because they
already are beating themselvesup on the inside.
They might feel like they'realready bad and so they're like
(19:18):
and so then they have to do thatdefense against attachment type
thing.
Laura (19:23):
So now I'm going to be angry.
So that cause I know you'reabout to get angry, so I'm angry
already and I've learned thatresponse from you is going to be
negative.
So I'm already so like theanger that I'm displaying is
really anger with myself forbeing so stupid that I broke
this thing and I you know causeI know that that's going to be
the response from the adult.
So a lot of time, negativeself-talk in children it's
(19:44):
really mirrored from thenegative self, negative child
talk that they've heard fromtheir adults that have been
taking care of them, and chronicstress.
You know we're talkingspecifically about kids who
already have ADHD and who aredealing with this stuff.
But let's say, a kid is justdysregulated and struggling and
is like emotionally having thesebig feelings and is really
(20:06):
difficult to get to calm down.
You know, if their environmentis chaotic and if a child's
environment is unsafe, if achild's environment is
terrifying, if a child'senvironment is unstable, they're
going to develop similarsymptoms they're going to have
(20:28):
because what's happening is thattheir brain isn't getting the
safety that it needs in order todevelop properly and the
prefrontal cortex is the verylast thing to develop and it's
not going to do that very wellin an environment where it's
chronically stressed and toxicinstability.
Because, again, those messagesfrom the back of my brain only
(20:49):
need to go so far in order tosurvive.
They're all survival instincts.
Those are happening from thecore and the only thing I need
to do is I need to act, and Ineed to act now, and that's what
my brain is learning is thepriority.
It's not saying, hey, slow downin your prefrontal cortex is
the priority.
It's not saying, hey, slow downin your prefrontal cortex, use
the brakes.
It's not saying that becausesurvival requires gas, right,
(21:12):
and then, every now and then,survival will require, like, a
freeze mechanism and a shutdownmechanism, but that's not
activating your prefrontalcortex.
That's activating somethingtotally different.
That is a distress response.
And so you know, we need tomake sure that we're thinking of
our children.
I heard this analogy recentlywhere, as parents, we need to be
(21:33):
gardeners instead of carpenters.
But carpenters are focused onperfection and outcomes.
And you have this blueprint andyou're following.
If I follow every singleinstruction exactly the way that
it's supposed to be, then I'mgoing to have this perfect
outcome, right, which isprobably true when you're doing
like woodworking.
Right, you're building a table.
(21:53):
But the difference is, whenyou're gardening, you're saying,
ok, what is, what nutrientsdoes this plant need in order to
thrive?
What kind of sunlight, whatkind of environment does this
plant need?
And then I'm going to plant theseed and I can't do anything
after that.
All I can do is I can watch it,I can sing to it, I can give it
, you know, a nice spritzing ofof cool water, and I can, you
(22:14):
know, give it a humidenvironment.
I can, I can influence this,this's environment, in order for
the seed to then thrive.
And then I'm going to bewonderfully surprised and
thrilled with the results.
Right, because I'm a gardener,whereas a carpenter is really
focused on following theseperfect instructions to get a
perfect outcome.
We need to be thinking about itfrom the other direction.
Michaela (22:36):
But sometimes the sun is really hot and it makes me
wilt a little bit, right, and soit doesn't always look perfect
until maybe the end, right,there's going to be good days
and bad days, and that, and Ithink that you know, I love that
analogy.
That's really, that's reallygood.
I think that's good.
I'm going to use that.
Laura (22:55):
Yeah, well, I stole it from whoever I stole it from.
So you know, I think when wethink about a child's mind,
they're blank slates.
They have nothing until we giveit to them and, depending on
(23:16):
the environment that we createfor needs, an environment that's
going to support theirparticular learning and their
particular growth in order tobuild the skills and tools that
they need in order to have theirattention be able to you know,
they can exercise that.
That's a muscle, that's a skillthat they're going to have to
learn throughout their wholelife.
You know, we can talk later alittle bit about treatment
(23:38):
options and different ways thatwe can sort of help them.
But you know we can talk latera little bit about treatment
options and different ways thatwe can sort of help them.
But you know, one thing that Isee causing a lot of harm is
technology.
Yeah, you know, when we'reusing our screens, all the time
we are practicing inattention,so we are constantly being
pulled into all of thesedifferent places with different
(24:01):
alerts from different apps.
I think when we talked aboutanxiety, I spoke about this as
well, where you can have over100 alerts on a phone in one day
and so every single time youget that alert, you're being
sort of this cycle ofinattention is starting because
you're like, oh, what was that?
So I'm not fully present withyou because I just got this
(24:22):
alert right and so I loveturning off all alerts.
I highly recommend Just don'tturn on alerts.
Check your phone at designatedtimes, you'll be fine, right,
like you don't need to haveevery single app be able to tell
you a push notification.
Like, push notifications arestealing your attention
constantly.
That's their job.
(24:42):
That's the reason why theyexist is to make whatever
company runs the app, make themmoney by getting your attention.
So there there's this termattention economy.
Like attention is your, is thecommodity that these, that this
technology is really trying tosteal, and it's doing a great
job.
And so we have to intentionallycounteract that by teaching our
(25:05):
families, by teaching our kids,that that's not the highest
priority and that they can waituntil they have a fully
developed or let's not say fully, because then we'd all be
waiting until we're like 30, buta more sad, like a more stably
developed prefrontal cortex,before we give them access to
all of that stuff, to givingthem access to the full, the
(25:29):
full range of apps that canstart stealing their attention
Right, we want to wait untilthey're a lot older.
Michaela (25:36):
Well, I think about, like I think we've talked about
this on one of the otherpodcasts Well, like, I think of
all of the shorts and all of thethings that, like you know, um,
if you go on Disney and theyhave like the Spider-Man and
they're short videos and they'reliterally like so short and I'm
like how is that already over,right?
(25:56):
Um, but there's, you know,tiktok shorts and YouTube shorts
and and all of these things aregeared to drag people in and
then keep them there becauseit's constantly changing.
You're like what's coming next,what's going to be next?
Right, and it's and it'saltering.
In a kid, I think, you know,there's probably some pruning of
(26:20):
their brain that's going onthere.
So, like, when we don't usesomething, we lose it.
And, especially in our childhood, our brain is getting rid of
things that it doesn't need,right to help prepare us for
adulthood.
And, and in that, if we arenever sustaining attention on
(26:41):
things, if we're always seekingto be watching something, that
you know be engaging insomething and being entertained
constantly, that's alteringwhatever's going on in the brain
.
That's altering our dopamineresponse in our brain as well,
because we're getting thesereally high hits of dopamine and
I don't I don't want to sayit's always addiction, right,
(27:05):
because people can utilizedifferent things and not get
addicted per se, but it ispotentially altering our
dopamine response and you know,you've talked about before,
teens have lower dopamineresponse at baseline, and so you
know we're, we're making thingsworse by constantly having some
(27:26):
kind of thing that's drivingthat dopamine up and then low,
and then up and then low.
And I think that, like videogames are so fun for them, right
, they're so fun, and so liketaking a shower or doing laundry
or the dishes or coming, evencoming to eat food is much less
(27:46):
desirable for them and that'sgoing to make it harder to
engage in things and haveenjoyment.
Laura (27:53):
It's true, and when you talked about the video games, it
reminds me of just beingengrossed in this world where
you don't actually have to getup and exert any energy or work
for anything.
You're just engrossed in aworld where the rewards are just
(28:13):
coming at you with very littleeffort.
The pleasure is constantlythere, you have no sacrifice,
you have instant gratification,and that really increases your
receptivity to the impulsivity.
So it's perpetuating this cycleof addiction and impulse
(28:37):
control issues because there isno practice.
Like you said, if you don't useit, you lose it.
If you're not practicing calmwaiting, if you never have to
wait for anything, you're notgoing to have that skill.
If you never have to work foranything, you're not going to
use that skill.
If you are just getting fedthese rewards and you don't
(28:58):
actually have to put in anyeffort or work.
I mean, I understand thatplaying the game in and of
itself is the effort, but that'snot the same kind of work that
we're talking about here.
We're not talking about thegratification of a clean kitchen
after scrubbing down thecounters or cleaning a sink full
of dirty dishes and puttingthem all away, and you have this
(29:18):
nice, clean kitchen, cleaning asink full of dirty dishes and
putting them all away and youhave this nice, clean kitchen.
That isn't being learned inthat pivotal time of childhood.
When the time is being spent onso many video games and on so
many screens and outside of thereal world, we're not embodying
the effort that it takes and thegratification and the response
(29:38):
to having succeeded at a hardtask.
Michaela (29:42):
We have to do hard things in order to learn how to
tolerate difficult experiences,and so we really need to be
mindful of the amount of timeour kids that you know, even
(30:02):
just in ADHD, I think that youknow these kids aren't able to
focus and pay attention tothings, and so it's a really big
challenge.
They haven't learned, sothey're not learning the skills
of how do I study, they're justskating by right.
(30:23):
And so when I start workingwith adults that never got
diagnosed as a kid, I tell thema lot.
I'm like this medicine thatwe're going to try is going to
help you.
It's going to be the thing thathelps you sustain attention on
that task.
It's going to help you overcomethe motivational issues that
will to accomplish it right,because you're like you might be
(30:46):
like I really need to do that,and you're like, nah, later.
Right, because it just doesn'tsound.
I don't have enough dopamine toget myself to do it right.
So the medicine is going toovercome those things, but it's
not going to make you have aclean house.
It's not going to help youlearn how to be organized, and
so you have to learn the thingsthat you didn't learn as a kid
because you weren't capable oflearning them then you weren't,
(31:07):
you know, pushed and encouragedto learn those skills.
Then you have to do it now,because the medicine's not going
to do that for you.
It's going to help you sustainwhat you choose to do longer,
but it's not going to make you,all of a sudden, an organized
person.
Laura (31:22):
It's not going to give you skills that you didn't learn
in childhood.
So, going back to the gardener,we need to be good gardeners
and teach these skills and dohard things and say to our kids,
like I love that you're havingso much fun on this game and our
time is up for today.
It's so exciting that you getto play again tomorrow.
I love that and it's reallyreally hard.
(31:45):
As somebody who my kids dabbledin like literal professional
gaming Okay, I get how difficultit is.
Trying them away from thecomputer was not an easy thing
to do, but we do have to makethose sacrifices and teach the
kids that their sacrifice isworth their time and and start
(32:05):
giving their brain therealization that dopamine can
come from other places too.
Oh, man.
Michaela (32:11):
But the hardest thing for our ADHD all kids, but
especially ADHD kids, is gettingoff video games and switching
tasks and it can create such bigangry feelings.
But you know, I think that itlike I I think that made me
think of it from like what youwere saying.
It's like, hey, it's okay to befrustrated, it's going to be
(32:34):
angry about this.
I get this.
You seem angry.
Let's go bake some cookies,right.
Let's go do something different.
Let's go, you know, hang.
Let's go do something different.
Let's go, you know, hang out.
Just because you can't playvideo games anymore Doesn't mean
that you're, the world is over,right.
Let's go do find something elseto do.
Let them have their feelings.
Sit there with them, help themthrough it.
It's not the end of the worldfor you as the parent either
(32:56):
when they're having those bigfeelings.
You just need to support themwith those feelings.
And it's hard and it's uglysometimes, right, like I hate
you.
You're the worst, right, and wefeel bad when our kids talk to
us like that.
Laura (33:13):
Yeah, it's the most heartbreaking thing when our
kids lose control and they dosay those things and it really
hurts and then we use to.
We need to be able to talk toour adult support system and be
able to get our feelings outabout that.
But when a kid is having ameltdown, you know, I use I say
oof all the time.
I'm like oof, this looks hard,this looks like you're having a
(33:35):
really hard time.
I'm with you.
You must be really upset tohave said that when I know that
you don't mean it.
Or you must be really upset tohave said that when you know
that it's a hurtful thing to sayright, because you're a kind
person and that's that's outsideof character for you.
That must you must be feelingreally, really like this is too
much right now, right.
Michaela (33:55):
I know it feels that way right now.
You know it's okay, I stilllove you.
Laura (34:02):
Yeah yeah, validating statements is not the same thing
as agreeing with them, right.
And when we are able to attuneto and connect with our kid when
they're having a meltdown, themeltdown will go by much, much
faster.
And I don't know.
Go outside, do something in.
(34:23):
I know it's 1 million degreeshere in Arizona right now, but
you can go outside.
Go outside, take a walk innature, listen to birds, listen
to the water in like a river oryou know a waterfall, or have
some kind of have some kind ofconnection moment that you can
just shift the attention tosomething.
(34:45):
That's using your senses, yoursounds, your smells, your sights
.
You're doing somethingdifferent with different
textures.
Maybe you're touching somethingbecause we want to activate the
body, to sort of slow down themind and sort of get out of this
like internalized situation ofI'm miserable, I can't deal with
(35:07):
this because I have to switchtasks.
We want to get out of thatinternal stuff and get into the
external stuff.
So taking a walk outside can bereally helpful.
Michaela (35:15):
And so they might need to do this thing before they
can go on to the next task thatyou really want them to do.
This thing, before they can goon to the next task that you
really want them to do, you knowthey might need something in
between the task switching tohelp them calm down, one of the
interesting things that I'vebeen trying with my kids.
So, you know, all of us thathave kids can empathize with,
(35:36):
like the fighting in thebackground, right, like you're
driving in the car and they'rethey want to hit, they want to
yell at each other, they'reangry, right.
And it's been so interesting tosee even just one kid that's
dysregulated in the background.
Like I'm like, okay, can youpoint out all the things that
are green right now, find allthe things that are green.
(35:57):
Oh, good about blue.
What's blue, what is blue?
And no joke, if at least one ofthe kids can get engaged, like
they will just start sayingthings and then boom, done,
they're not fighting anymore.
Laura (36:10):
it's like yeah, and you didn't even have to address the
fighting, right?
Oh, not at all, it's wild.
So that's a grounding skill.
Yes, you're using groundingskills because the fight isn't
the problem, the dysregulationis the problem, and so when we
recognize that the the contentis not the problem, the process
(36:31):
is what we need to address.
We need to address the processof a dysregulated nervous system
and a dysregulated mind, and wecan do that by focusing on
something that is easy, that isaccessible, that is sensory,
that is something completelydifferent than what was going on
before.
So we're not talking about thefight, we're not logicking,
we're not lecturing because PS,that doesn't help, right.
(36:55):
A dysregulated kid and thentrying to have a conversation
and make them say sorry, itdoesn't really go that well, it
really doesn't, and all we'reteaching them in that moment is
to be quiet or lie appease.
We're saying please and appeaseRight.
We're saying stop with youremotional response.
(37:16):
You need to please and appeasethis other person Right, which I
don't love that.
Michaela (37:22):
And your feelings don that matter and your feelings
don't matter.
Yeah, which is not ourintention, right?
We just want it to be over with, because we can't handle them
yelling and screaming at eachother anymore for the 18th
million time today.
That's right.
Laura (37:36):
We are all good intentions no, I say this all
the time but parents aren't justjerks.
We're doing the best we can.
We have good intentions.
We're not making these mistakesbecause we just don't care
about our kids and we'recomplete jerks.
That's not what's happening atall.
We do care about their feelings, we do care about their
(37:56):
happiness and we do care abouttheir wellbeing, and that's why
we're so intent on helping themachieve wellness and helping
them achieve happiness andhelping them achieve a wellbeing
.
But we don't necessarilyrealize that our words and our
actions are sometimescounterintuitive towards our
goals.
Michaela (38:12):
Yeah, I mean, kids are smarter than what I would have
ever given them credit for, like, as a like, you know,
non-parent, right?
I didn't understand the valueof the words that we use and the
way that we say things, and youknow how it can make a huge
difference.
You know, even just the factthat kids need choices was
(38:36):
something that really, really Ididn't ever think about before,
right?
So kids want autonomy.
Even my seven or my four-year,almost four-year-old, thinks
that they're grown.
They think they know everythingalready.
They're not even teenagers yetand they think that they know
what's best for them.
And so we need to be givingthem choices so that kids have
(39:00):
choices, so that they can havethat autonomy, to be able to
feel like they have some controlover their lives.
And that's really reallyimportant in ADHD kids, because
they specifically will ignitethat counter will and from
Gerber Mate, and so that counterwill is something that I have
(39:21):
learned a lot about having myown children.
They, even if they want to dothe thing that you want them to
do, if they don't feel like theyhave choice, they are going to
fight you on it more likely, andit's going to be a big deal.
And so if you just offer them,would you like to get in the
bath now or in five minutes?
I'd like to do five minutes.
(39:42):
Can you set a timer?
Sure thing, I will set a timerfor five minutes and they won't
argue with the timer.
Most of the time, most of thetime.
Not all the time, but most ofthe time.
Laura (39:54):
And it's so.
I love that.
You said kids' choices, by theway, because the question wasn't
would you like to get in thebath?
Right.
Would you like to get in thebath now or in five minutes?
Right, because that's thechoice.
The choice is not whether ornot they do the thing, so you
know.
Going back to technology, wouldyou know, are you ready to get
(40:17):
to stop playing your video game?
That's not the question, right?
We're going to ask themdifferent questions.
We're going to say would youlike to stop now and help?
You know, right before you know, or would you like me to get
you five minutes before dinner?
Maybe it's only six minutesbefore dinner, who knows, but
we're going to get them up.
You know what I mean.
Like, we're going to give themthose choices that make sense
and that are actual kids choicesthat they, they can answer and
(40:40):
we can grant them the authorityto make that choice and we can
respect that choice.
So we don't want to give themfalse choices.
We don't want to give themchoices that we're not ready to
uphold.
For example, bedtime Never aska kid if they're ready for bed,
unless you're literally curiousfor bed.
(41:03):
Unless you're literally curious, because unless you're asking
out of curiosity.
It's not a valid question.
Michaela (41:05):
I'm sure that there are kids out there that do say,
yeah, I'm ready for bed Not mine, but I'm sure that they exist
out there somewhere.
Laura (41:14):
I'm sure they do.
I have met very few of them.
I don't know any kids who willsay, yes, I'm ready for that.
But it's really important thatwe are recognizing that
motivation right.
The laziness we talked about,the lack of motivation that we
see in kids with ADHD and a lotof kids and teens and humans.
Motivation comes from internalmotivation, at least, comes from
(41:39):
purpose, autonomy and mastery.
You have to have those threeelements in order to achieve
internal motivation.
So external motivation might belike rewards or prizes or
something like that.
That's what you're getting fromthe video game, that's what
you're getting from the computer, that's what you're getting
from the phone.
Is this external motivation?
And so we want our kids to bemotivated internally.
(42:02):
And in order to have internalmotivation, we have to have
purpose, autonomy and mastery.
So how do you teach?
Michaela (42:10):
your kids.
How do you help your kids learnhow to develop those skills?
Because that sounds reallyimportant.
Because that sounds reallyimportant.
Laura (42:19):
I mean you start with purpose, which is consistent
expectations.
Purpose is I know what I can doin order to achieve success.
I know what I can do in orderto not achieve success, and so I
have to be really, reallyconsistent.
And so when we talk aboutconsistency, I mean down to the
letter.
If you say, if you do thatagain, I'm not going to let you
(42:44):
continue to play with that toy,and then they do it again and
you still let them play, you'vegone off the rails.
Now this is very difficult.
Let me just classify this.
But one thing that I've said toparents and kids in this moment
(43:04):
is you deserve for me to meanwhat I say, and say what I mean
and be a person of my word.
And so I told you that if youdo that again, I have to take
that toy away.
I'm bummed about it too, but ifI didn't, what kind of message
would I be sending to you?
That's not even fair to you forme to not take this toy Now.
(43:27):
I told you that would be whatwould happen.
So that means I gave you theopportunity to be successful.
Now, if I don't uphold my end,which is taking away the thing,
then you're never going to knowhow to be successful, which
would have been to listen thefirst time.
So we're learning an importantlesson here, right?
So if I don't take the toy now,I'm saying, I'm saying you may
(43:51):
or may not win in this situation.
It's a gamble which leads tothat behavioral addiction kind
of process, right, it's like ifyou don't know whether or not
the response is going to be good, but there's a chance that it
goes fine, I'm going to takethat chance almost every single
time, right?
And so it's like why I hit theslot machine button again after
(44:12):
17 times of losing?
Right, I hit it again becausethere's a chance that it goes
well for me.
And so we need to not be theslot machine.
We need to be consistent everysingle time.
We say what we're going to doand we do what we say.
Michaela (44:27):
Which is why it's important to pick your battles
with these kids.
Laura (44:32):
And be careful what you threaten these kids and be
careful.
Michaela (44:39):
be careful what you threaten, right?
Yeah, well, that makes me thinktoo about like video games and
having that conversation aboutboundaries around, or like being
consistent around them and likethe punishment fitting the
crime kind of situation.
Like you know, um, making surethat you're like, oh, you went
over five minutes on your videogames again.
You know that that means thatyou're like, oh, you went over
five minutes on your video gamesagain.
You know that that means thatyou're going to get five minutes
less tomorrow because youalready spent the day right.
(45:01):
Like that's a naturalconsequence type of situation
that you, you pre-discuss withthem, you know beforehand,
absolutely, so they know howthey can be successful.
Laura (45:14):
That's their purpose.
They know exactly what they cando.
Now the autonomy is thatthey're given the opportunity to
succeed or fail, and we have tobe the accountability here.
If we're not the accountability, then we've taken away their
autonomy to succeed or fail, sowe need to be able to let them
do the thing without remindingthem 17 times.
Oh, you went over five minutes,okay, well, we're starting five
(45:35):
minutes.
Okay, well, we're starting fiveminutes later tomorrow, right,
if you get video game timebetween five and 6 PM, well, now
you're starting at five.
Oh, five, yep, right, and youend sharply at six.
So you're taking the time offthe beginning, by the way, not
the end.
Um, yeah, so just saying Ididn't think about that.
So that's good.
Good, when we are shaving time,we shave it off the beginning,
(45:58):
not the end, but anyway, whenwe're so, we have that autonomy
of like.
Okay, you are in charge ofgetting off of your video game,
and then I'm going to come andcheck on you after five minutes
just to make sure that you didwhat you were supposed to do,
right, and if they didn't do thething, well then we're going to
shave that time Now.
If they consistently cannot dothe thing, maybe they're not
(46:21):
ready for the autonomy and weneed to go back a step to
purpose and we need to sayremember, let's do the reminder,
let's do the timer, let's doall the things in order to
support you in being successful.
Right, so that's your purpose,your autonomy, and then your
mastery is hey, great job, youdid the thing, you set your
(46:44):
timer, you used your timer, yougot off the game and you did it
perfectly, and so that meansyou're going to have all your
time tomorrow, and everybody'sso excited about that.
I love that.
You can play for the full hourtomorrow.
I'm so happy for you, becausethat's all I've ever wanted for
you is you to achieve your goals.
I'm so happy for you becausethat's all I've ever wanted for
you is you to achieve your goals, right, right so it's a
different way of looking atthings.
Michaela (47:04):
I like that.
So what else can we do to helpwith?
You know, people with focusissues?
Let's say, maybe it's.
Laura (47:20):
ADHD?
Maybe it's not ADHD.
Dr Dan Siegel says time in.
So time in is a mindfulnesspractice that basically gives
you an opportunity to practicefocusing your attention on
whatever it is you're doing.
He calls it time in.
So you're in your focus, you'rein your mind.
So, like, let's say, I'mfocusing on this microphone that
(47:41):
I'm looking at right now.
So I'm just noticing it, I'mnoticing the pattern on it, I'm
noticing the color, I'm noticingthe shape, I'm noticing the you
know, the smoothness of it, theeverything about it.
So I'm like really focusing myattention on this.
Um, that's an external thingthat I can take time into.
Like, maybe think about mythoughts about this microphone.
Like, maybe I am havingquestions about it, maybe I'm,
(48:03):
but I'm staying on this topic ofthe microphone.
Um, he uses a great example inone of his books uh, when you're
doing the dishes, like, oh, I'mdoing this dish, I'm noticing
the soap is blue.
I'm noticing the water is warm,I'm noticing the way it feels
on my hands, right.
So you're taking time in,you're really noticing what's
going on in that moment andreally it's I don't know a
(48:25):
minute two minutes depends onhow many dishes you have but
you're spending a couple ofminutes just noticing what's
going on, and if your mindstarts to wander, that's not a
big deal.
But you want to try to bring itback, because what you're
learning is how to bring it back.
That's the exercise.
That's the practice is to bringyour mind's attention back to
the thing that you originallyset out to focus on.
Michaela (48:46):
Right, and when you're doing mindfulness, it's really
important not to beat yourselfup that your mind wandered,
cause I heard that a number oftimes.
You're like well, I just mustnot be very good at it.
Or like I was really mad atmyself, like, no, your mind is
going to wander.
Laura (49:01):
Right Minds wander.
Michaela (49:02):
That's what they do, right we're just trying to get
stronger by strengthening theconnection of staying focused.
Laura (49:10):
That's right.
So if I'm trying to exercise aparticular part of my body, that
doesn't mean that it's not okayto also, you know, do some
squats.
You know, in between my pushups, like I can shift, I can do
multiple things.
It doesn't have to be this onething.
But what I'm doing is I'mremembering oh, I'm going to
focus really hard on my pushupstoday, and then I'm also going
(49:34):
to maybe go for a walk or I'malso going to go for a jog.
So, like, your mind is capableof doing many things, there's
nothing bad about that.
What we want to do is we want topractice one area, and that's
what we're trying to kind ofaccomplish in that moment.
And there's nothing bad aboutany other stuff that comes up,
because you can jot that down oryou can change your focus and
you can say, oh, this is muchmore fun, I want to focus on
(49:56):
this that I just came up with,and then you can reset your
timer, right, if you want toreally practice.
Okay, I'm going to focus onthis for one minute, all right,
great, start small, start short,start slow, like 30 seconds a
minute.
I've started clients with threeseconds.
I mean, come on, it's fine,anything is fine.
Michaela (50:20):
Yeah, well, and I think that, like, we talked a
lot about motivating ourselvesto do things and, you know,
outside of one, definitelyfinding the internal motivation
and how to strengthen that inyourself as an adult and help
encourage that in your children.
But also like just tellingyourself I'm just going to do it
(50:40):
for five minutes, do it for oneminute, I'm just like the task
that you don't want to do.
Right, I'm just going to start,because starting is typically
the hardest part, um, and so ifyou can just get yourself
started, that's great.
Other things that you can dothat help pay for that dopamine
is a cold shower.
(51:00):
Those are really hard to comeby here in Arizona right now.
Fill a tub up with ice.
There's plenty of places outthere, um, even the gym down the
road has like an eight, like acold therapy thing.
So there's plenty of placesthat have cold therapy options.
You can, you know, do a coldshower.
You know, if it's winter time,you can get in your pool.
(51:21):
Um, most people are not goingto do that, but some people do.
Um.
And then also exercise.
You know you talked aboutpushups and things like exercise
actually is a great thing to tohelp with building up paying
for that dopamine and so doingsomething harder than whatever
it is that you were trying to do, that will help it become less
(51:42):
hard.
Laura (51:43):
Absolutely.
I love that and I think youknow there's so many ways that
we can give ourselves a littlebit more credit.
That, I think also really helps.
So when you do the thing,credit that I think, also really
helps.
So when you do the thing, beexcited about it right, Tell
your brain that was awesome andthat's important.
(52:04):
And so what you're doing isyou're reminding your brain hey,
look for more opportunities togive yourself credit, Look for
more opportunities like this,because you're saying to your
brain hey, that's reallyimportant.
By intentionally acknowledgingsomething good, you're teaching
your brain what to look for inthe future.
Michaela (52:20):
I love that.
Everything that I think aboutfor helping with ADHD is that
we're starting a lot of timesfrom a place of extreme
disorganization and it'soverwhelming to think about
trying to get organized.
I remember, like when we movedhere a couple of years ago, all
(52:43):
my office stuff I had so manypapers from like college I'd
been out of college for a whilenow but never wanted to go
through them Right, but neverwanted to go through them Right.
And so, like I, just every dayon my break, I would just shred
something Right.
And so slowly, slowly, overtime you whittle it all down
(53:04):
Right.
So you're not going to try tounpack your whole room in one
sitting.
You're not going to try to gothrough that old file cabinet of
taxes that have been sittingthere for 15 years.
You're going to.
You're not going to do that inone time.
You're going to say, okay, well, every day I'm going to do five
minutes of this.
Or, you know, on the weekendI'm going to spend 10 minutes
each day and I'm just going todo this thing, and so it's going
(53:26):
to get done over time.
You're going to have to startby just trying to organize your
pantry first, and then maybeyour closet, you know.
So you kind of have to pick andchoose the things where you
need to start, but just findingit and just saying I'm just
going to work on it for thisamount of time.
I'm not going to try to get toa point where I've done it all
in one.
Laura (53:45):
Yeah, I love that time.
Boxing your tasks and choosingsomething small, taking one
thing at a time Um, those areall really, really good.
I think we have some good tipshere and good reminders for us
too, so thank you.
Michaela (53:59):
Yeah, I don't think you have to have ADHD to do
these things either.
Laura (54:05):
Cause you know I think these are helpful for everyone.
Well, thank you for listeningto.
Why am I like this?
If you like our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
your favorite podcast platform.
Follow the show and share itwith your friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, laura Wood and
Michelle Bieber.
Our theme song is Making EndsMeet by Thick as Thieves, and a
(54:28):
special thanks to BenefairyCounseling and Coaching and
Active Healing PsychiatricServices for sponsoring our show
.
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:09):
Hi and I'm M Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
So, mashaela, why?
Laura (00:15):
are we doing this podcast?
Michaela (00:17):
I am so glad you asked .
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better how the
things you learned aboutyourself and the world in
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this those random things
about ourselves that we mightwonder about.
Why am I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
Why are my thoughts so negative?
(00:38):
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all the time?
Laura (00:42):
Yes, and today we are talking about attention and
focus and ADHD and all of thosethings.
So we are going to try toanswer the following questions
what can cause focus issues, howdoes technology affect our
attention and what can we do toreduce the impact of this poor
(01:03):
focus on our lives?
So let's get into it.
Let's start with what causesfocus issues.
Michaela (01:11):
Yeah, so thinking about focus, right.
So first we think about ADHD.
Right, that's the most commonthing that we might think about
when somebody is like I can'tfocus, it must be ADHD.
So ADHD is a really commoncause.
It starts in childhood usuallyand it's predominantly
(01:35):
categorized by difficulties withinattention, difficulty with
hyperactivity and difficultywith impulsivity.
So that's probably one of thereally big common causes.
But I think about other thingsthat can mimic ADHD, and so
anxiety and depression are bigthings that can impact our
(01:59):
ability to focus.
And so you know, if we'rethinking about a million things
we talked about anxiety lastweek if our brain is racing and
we're just having all theseworry thoughts, we're going to
try to sit down and do a projector do our work and we're going
to be drifting back off to thoseworry thoughts all the time,
and that can feel like focus inattention issues, and it is, but
(02:20):
it's not because of ADHD.
It's caused by this distractionin our brain.
Laura (02:27):
Yeah, one of the symptoms of depression is
inattention, is the inability tofocus.
Another thing that comes up isOCD the inability to calm your
thoughts down and you'reconstantly obsessing or have
compulsions to do things beforeyou can do other things.
So those things can bedistracting.
(02:48):
Another thing is anxiety.
Overthinking is a big thingthat I hear from clients about
not being able to focus, likeI'm overthinking about
everything and that's almostlike hyper-focus right.
So I think we can almost getconfused.
Where we're hyper-focused onsomething, which is also a
(03:09):
symptom of ADHD, is sometimesthat absorption right, where you
can get hyper-focused on stuff.
So, as we're talking about this, I am reminded of the analogy
that the DSM, which is ourDiagnostic and Statistical
Manual of Mental Diseases andDisorders, that we use to
diagnose.
Analogy that the DSM, which isour diagnostic and statistical
manual of mental diseases anddisorders, that we use to
diagnose and categorize andclassify mental illness.
(03:31):
It's like a menu.
It's like a menu at an Italianrestaurant, right, like there's
seven ingredients but they'reall just mixed up in different
ways to get different dishes.
Like, is baked ziti, reallythat different from lasagna?
Like not really.
If you actually look into it,like if I make those two dishes,
(03:51):
I'm using a lot of the sameingredients.
I'm just mixing them up in adifferent way, and so, with
these different diagnoses thatcome with the lack of focus and
that come with that focus is apart of it's not always ADHD.
A lot of the time, theinattention of it is the
inattention or the fragmentedattention or the inability to
(04:16):
focus on one thing at a time.
That's a symptom of something,and it's just one of those
things where that's a symptom ofsomething.
And it's just one of thosethings where I feel like at some
point we can all say, oh, Ithink I have this, like I must
have ADHD.
Like how many people say thisoh, I'm so ADHD today, or like
I'm so whatever, I'm all overthe place, right, and so that's
(04:39):
actually can be a feature ofjust stress and overwhelm.
Michaela (04:43):
For sure.
The other thing that I like Ireally think that one of the
things that overlaps the most isactually ADHD and bipolar
disorder.
Say more about that.
So there's so many people thatcome in and either have been
told they have bipolar disorderor ADHD and it might.
When we're doing the evaluation, it comes out that, you know,
(05:06):
maybe it really wasn't what theythought it was.
Um, so you know, I think thatlike people come in and they're
like oh my gosh, um, my emotionsslip like this and just at the
snap of a finger, and like I'mjust all over the place, I must
be bipolar.
And I'm like, okay, well, itcould be bipolar, but let's,
(05:28):
let's break it down.
And a lot of the times, like wecome out and we're like you know
, there's a lot of misnomersabout, you know, mood disorders
and mental health and there's alot of like stigma tied to
things, and so, like you know,but just because your emotions,
you know, flip, you know, reallyquickly, doesn't mean that you
have bipolar disorder.
(05:49):
Bipolar disorder is reallyactually categorized by this
elevated or euphoric mood tiedwith high energy, and it lasts
for days.
Right, you're seeing cycles andpatterns.
It's not something that flipsat the drop of a hat.
That's usually, in myexperience, other things, but
(06:13):
ADHD is one of those things thatyou can have those really
impulsive mood switches likewhere you're all of a sudden you
know things are great and thensomething triggers you to be
irritable all of a sudden, andso you know that impulsive
irritability can be a really bigfeature of ADHD, and so there's
a lot of confusion between thetwo.
Laura (06:35):
And just a lack of regulation in general, like a
lack of the ability to slow downand calm down and bring
yourself back to the present.
I see a lot of focus issues inclients who have dissociative
processes.
So our brain is inherentlydissociative.
We're all dissociative.
Everybody's brains dissociatebecause it's a coping skill.
(06:56):
It's the reason why you candrive home and then forget how
you got there and I don't meanlike when you're driving under
the influence or something.
I mean a regular, healthyperson who is driving and gets
home from work.
And then it's like, oh my gosh,like I totally don't remember
that whole entire drive becauseI was so distracted by thinking
(07:18):
about other things.
Like that's a dissociativeresponse.
They're in that hypnotic stateyes, that's a good way to put it
, that hypnotic state.
And then also dissociation comesup when we are in a great deal
of pain and we're trying to.
Let's say, I have a super badheadache and I'm trying to close
my eyes and think aboutsomething else in order to
(07:40):
distract from my headache.
That's a dissociative processthat I'm using Anytime I'm doing
guided imagery or meditation.
That can be dissociativeprocess that I'm using Anytime
I'm doing guided imagery ormeditation.
That can be dissociative inthat hypnotic way where, let's
say, I'm using my calm place,guided imagery in my head and
I'm saying, oh, I'm going toescape to this other world and
just feel the feelings of thisother world.
(08:01):
I'm dissociating, but I'm doingit on purpose, it's not
compulsory and it's not outsideof my control.
So there's a difference between, just like there's a difference
between, you know, like, ahappy mood and euphoria, and
there's a difference betweenbeing sad and having depression.
Just because we do these thingsdoesn't mean that we have, um,
you know, symptoms of, or itdoesn't mean that we can really
(08:22):
classify ourselves as havingthis disorder.
But anytime our brain is usingdissociative processes to kind
of get through the day or getthrough our life, we're going to
have a little bit of adifficulty paying attention to
the present, because inherently,that's the point of
dissociation is to not stay inthe present, is to not, you know
(08:43):
, notice what's going on aroundme, to not focus my attention on
this thing.
It's focusing my attention onsomething that is a little bit
easier.
Michaela (08:54):
or mindless or whatever.
Right, that makes a lot ofsense.
So I so like that makes methink of, like how do you, how
do you diagnose what's going on?
Well, you go see a professionalwho can help you tease this out
, to see what's really kind ofgoing on.
And we use the DSM criteria toinform decision making and,
(09:16):
honestly, most of the timepeople have more than one thing
going on at one time.
Like it's very rare that I havea single disorder, single, you
know, problem, and so you knowit might be anxiety and ADHD, it
might be bipolar and ADHD, andso that kind of is hard to tease
out on your own.
(09:36):
And so talking to a professionalabout those things, so that we
can get a good diagnosis andevaluation to decide how to best
treat you, because you know ifit's ADHD, it's, you know, one
kind of treatment and if it'sbipolar disorder or depression
or anxiety, it's a totallydifferent treatment plan.
And so you know, having thatgood diagnosis and evaluation is
(09:58):
really important.
And so usually it's done in asystematic way to kind of look
at all of the things that aregoing on, to kind of kind of
have a better understanding ofexactly what things, what puzzle
pieces fit together.
Another thing that I use istechnology to can help with
(10:23):
diagnosing ADHD looking at, youknow, attention, focus, spatial
planning, reaction times, thenumber of errors that you make,
how many times you, you know,click when you're not supposed
to or not click when you'resupposed to, and so kind of like
looking at all of those things.
It that doesn't that that testdoesn't actually make the
diagnosis, but it addsinformation to you, information
(10:45):
to kind of help us put thosepuzzle pieces together.
Laura (10:49):
Well, and that's another thing that we can use when we
use technology to diagnose or toadd information.
I like what you said it's notthe diagnostic tool itself, but
it's to add information to helpus make that determination.
When I use neurofeedback, I amable to kind of take an
assessment, like a snapshot ofyour brain ahead of time to
(11:12):
determine, okay, what's yourbrain doing when it's just asked
to do nothing?
That's the whole assessment ishey, do nothing and sit there
and let your brain do what itnormally does, and I'm just
going to check out what's.
I'm going to take a picture.
Basically, I'm going to say,okay, what does your brain do
when it's doing nothing?
And what we see with ADHD brainsis often a lot of ironically
(11:33):
slow wave activity in theprefrontal cortex and in the
frontal cortex, and the reasonwhy that's important is because
what's happening is the middleand the back of our brain is
sending messages to the front.
So it's sending the messagesdon't start in the front, they
end in the front, and once theyget to this slow activity, it's
(11:55):
like, you know, throwingsomething into, like jelly,
where it just slows.
So it's like all the ideas aregoing in, they're going in,
they're going in, but then thislike slow jelly sort of just
absorbs them.
And then they're like oh, likeI'm.
And then the middle and theback of your brain is still
sending all these signals andit's working really fast and
these impulsive emotions andthings are coming up from the
(12:15):
back of your brain and from themiddle of your brain and they're
saying hey, this is an idea,hey, this is an idea.
And then the front is justcatching them and slowing them
all down, oh my gosh.
Michaela (12:25):
That reminds me like when I see kids that have ADHD
and like you can tell that theyhave this thought and it's like
their brain is going so fast buttheir mouth cannot figure out
like it's gone before they canput it.
Say it.
Laura (12:39):
That's exactly right.
It's like.
It's like start, start, start,start, start.
But they don't like ever finisha thought or finish an idea or
finish a complete sentence, likeit can't.
It doesn't get to make its fullcircle in the brain, right, it
doesn't get to go through theprefrontal cortex and complete
its journey into, like, a fullyformulated idea or task or
(12:59):
action.
Because the prefrontal cortex,that's where all the work gets
done, that's your executivefunctioning, that's like your um
, that's your breaks, right,that's the stuff that says like
okay, yes, execute this idea ordon't execute this idea, um, and
it's fullest function.
And we don't see that happeningwith an ADHD brain.
(13:20):
We see the opposite happening,where the stuff is just kind of
floating around in there and itjust does what it does.
Michaela (13:26):
Right, so that we also see that like that can cause if
we don't have good workingbreaks, it can cause a lot of
emotional dysregulation becausewe're so impulsive with our
emotions we don't we're having athought and we don't have the
time to just, you know, stopourselves from throwing that
(13:48):
remote control because we're somad at our video game or that
toy or those Legos won't get puttogether.
Or you know, our computer, asan adult, like we can't get our
computer to do this technologything that we it's supposed to
do and it's just not workingright and it makes us so mad we
want to take the computer andjust throw it Right, and so it
(14:09):
can create a lot of impulsiveemotional responses.
We might yell at people, wemight get, you know, into fights
because of these big feelingsthat we have that we don't have
those breaks to stop.
Laura (14:23):
Yeah, and that can then lead to chronic stress, right?
So with our childhoodexperiences, we need to have
some level of stability, somelevel of attunement and some
level of calm, and when we haveADHD, our brain is really
(14:45):
chaotic and is really causing usto behave in a chaotic way, and
then that can sort of influenceour environment to be less
stable.
When I think about kids whohave ADHD, I think about their
perception, the people'sperception of them, and then the
messages that they get back inreturn, and that makes me feel
(15:07):
really sad sometimes becausewe're blaming this kid for their
behavior when they really don'thave control over their
behavior.
We need to be able to executethis attunement, to be able to
say okay, I see that this ischaos right now and we're going
to slow down and we're going todo that on purpose, instead of
the blame and shame that oftenaccompanies a kid with ADHD.
Michaela (15:29):
A hundred percent.
I mean, I just think it's sofunny.
So our kid does something thatis wrong, it makes us angry, and
then we're allowed to yell atthem, but they can't yell and
have feelings back at us.
That would be ridiculous, right.
Yell at them, but they can'tyell and have feelings back at
us.
That would be ridiculous, right.
(15:51):
Like we, we have to create we,we have to purposefully create
stability with our own emotionalresponses to things and we have
to be cautious about how we'retalking to these kids, because I
think that one of the biggestthings that I see is that kids
that grow up in households wherethere's a lot of negative
reinforcement, it creates a lotof poor self-esteem issues in
(16:11):
these kids.
So you're saying constantlystop that, don't touch that.
Why are you doing that?
Oh, my gosh, you can't listen,why won't you just listen to me?
And you just get all thisnegative feedback.
These kids just get all thisnegative feedback and that it
can't be good for theirself-esteem.
Right, and it's hard for us asparents.
(16:31):
I, I, I my kid was helping,wanted to help me clean and he
accidentally broke the towelholder and I was just like
instantly irritated because I'mlike why would you pull on the
thing?
And I wanted to get angry.
I wanted to be like, I wantedto yell, but I was like why
would you pull on the thing?
And I wanted to get angry.
I wanted to be like, I wantedto yell, but I was like, no,
he's sitting there going.
Oh mom, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,I'm sorry.
And I'm like, yes, it's okay,you know, and I'm having to rein
(16:54):
myself back in.
It's just a towel holder whocares, really.
But in the moment, you're likeI'm trying to do 100 things,
you're not helping, you'remaking it harder for me to do
this, and so this is really hard.
This is a skill that you haveto practice and you're going to
mess up a million times, but wehave to be able to help these
kids.
(17:14):
We don't call them names, youknow, even though we want to,
even though we want to, becausethey're, they seem lazy, right
and unproductive, and you'relike just get, just, it's not
that hard, just do the thing,just take a shower, you know,
and so it's really challenging.
Laura (17:34):
It is really challenging and I think we can do a better
job at being patient withourselves too, in those
reactions right and slow down.
Just because my immediatereaction and my instinct or the
reaction that is triggered bythe break of the towel holder
doesn't mean I have to go withthat and I'm not in a hurry, I
don't have to respondimmediately.
(17:56):
No one's going to die, even ifsomething's spilling or even if
something's breaking.
Like I need to make sure thatmy priority is to educate and to
connect with and to make I'mraising a person.
I'm, I'm, I'm nurturing thisperson's mind.
This person's mind is dependenton my reaction right now,
(18:19):
whether or not it's going to bepositive or negative, whether
it's going to perpetuate thisfuture dysregulation and
disruption, or if it's going tobe positive or negative, whether
it's going to perpetuate thisfuture dysregulation and
disruption, or if it's going topotentially act as a bridge to
continually building thoseskills in their prefrontal
cortex of personalaccountability and also
(18:39):
self-forgiveness.
Right, those are very, veryimportant things.
Your kid already knows thatthey did something wrong, right?
Like you say, the kid's upset.
They're like I'm sorry, I'msorry, I'm sorry, I know I
messed up.
I know I messed up Me, likeyelling at them and blaming them
and shaming them isn't actuallygoing to help them.
No.
Michaela (18:55):
But I think that there are some kids like, if it would
have been my other kid, itcould have been a totally
different reaction.
It wouldn't have been a totallydifferent reaction.
It wouldn't have been, I'msorry.
My guess is it would have beenlike anger.
Right, it could have been adifferent response, because
they're they're trying toprotect themselves, because they
already are beating themselvesup on the inside.
They might feel like they'realready bad and so they're like
(19:18):
and so then they have to do thatdefense against attachment type
thing.
Laura (19:23):
So now I'm going to be angry.
So that cause I know you'reabout to get angry, so I'm angry
already and I've learned thatresponse from you is going to be
negative.
So I'm already so like theanger that I'm displaying is
really anger with myself forbeing so stupid that I broke
this thing and I you know causeI know that that's going to be
the response from the adult.
So a lot of time, negativeself-talk in children it's
(19:44):
really mirrored from thenegative self, negative child
talk that they've heard fromtheir adults that have been
taking care of them, and chronicstress.
You know we're talkingspecifically about kids who
already have ADHD and who aredealing with this stuff.
But let's say, a kid is justdysregulated and struggling and
is like emotionally having thesebig feelings and is really
(20:06):
difficult to get to calm down.
You know, if their environmentis chaotic and if a child's
environment is unsafe, if achild's environment is
terrifying, if a child'senvironment is unstable, they're
going to develop similarsymptoms they're going to have
(20:28):
because what's happening is thattheir brain isn't getting the
safety that it needs in order todevelop properly and the
prefrontal cortex is the verylast thing to develop and it's
not going to do that very wellin an environment where it's
chronically stressed and toxicinstability.
Because, again, those messagesfrom the back of my brain only
(20:49):
need to go so far in order tosurvive.
They're all survival instincts.
Those are happening from thecore and the only thing I need
to do is I need to act, and Ineed to act now, and that's what
my brain is learning is thepriority.
It's not saying, hey, slow downin your prefrontal cortex is
the priority.
It's not saying, hey, slow downin your prefrontal cortex, use
the brakes.
It's not saying that becausesurvival requires gas, right,
(21:12):
and then, every now and then,survival will require, like, a
freeze mechanism and a shutdownmechanism, but that's not
activating your prefrontalcortex.
That's activating somethingtotally different.
That is a distress response.
And so you know, we need tomake sure that we're thinking of
our children.
I heard this analogy recentlywhere, as parents, we need to be
(21:33):
gardeners instead of carpenters.
But carpenters are focused onperfection and outcomes.
And you have this blueprint andyou're following.
If I follow every singleinstruction exactly the way that
it's supposed to be, then I'mgoing to have this perfect
outcome, right, which isprobably true when you're doing
like woodworking.
Right, you're building a table.
(21:53):
But the difference is, whenyou're gardening, you're saying,
ok, what is, what nutrientsdoes this plant need in order to
thrive?
What kind of sunlight, whatkind of environment does this
plant need?
And then I'm going to plant theseed and I can't do anything
after that.
All I can do is I can watch it,I can sing to it, I can give it
, you know, a nice spritzing ofof cool water, and I can, you
(22:14):
know, give it a humidenvironment.
I can, I can influence this,this's environment, in order for
the seed to then thrive.
And then I'm going to bewonderfully surprised and
thrilled with the results.
Right, because I'm a gardener,whereas a carpenter is really
focused on following theseperfect instructions to get a
perfect outcome.
We need to be thinking about itfrom the other direction.
Michaela (22:36):
But sometimes the sun is really hot and it makes me
wilt a little bit, right, and soit doesn't always look perfect
until maybe the end, right,there's going to be good days
and bad days, and that, and Ithink that you know, I love that
analogy.
That's really, that's reallygood.
I think that's good.
I'm going to use that.
Laura (22:55):
Yeah, well, I stole it from whoever I stole it from.
So you know, I think when wethink about a child's mind,
they're blank slates.
They have nothing until we giveit to them and, depending on
(23:16):
the environment that we createfor needs, an environment that's
going to support theirparticular learning and their
particular growth in order tobuild the skills and tools that
they need in order to have theirattention be able to you know,
they can exercise that.
That's a muscle, that's a skillthat they're going to have to
learn throughout their wholelife.
You know, we can talk later alittle bit about treatment
(23:38):
options and different ways thatwe can sort of help them.
But you know we can talk latera little bit about treatment
options and different ways thatwe can sort of help them.
But you know, one thing that Isee causing a lot of harm is
technology.
Yeah, you know, when we'reusing our screens, all the time
we are practicing inattention,so we are constantly being
pulled into all of thesedifferent places with different
(24:01):
alerts from different apps.
I think when we talked aboutanxiety, I spoke about this as
well, where you can have over100 alerts on a phone in one day
and so every single time youget that alert, you're being
sort of this cycle ofinattention is starting because
you're like, oh, what was that?
So I'm not fully present withyou because I just got this
(24:22):
alert right and so I loveturning off all alerts.
I highly recommend Just don'tturn on alerts.
Check your phone at designatedtimes, you'll be fine, right,
like you don't need to haveevery single app be able to tell
you a push notification.
Like, push notifications arestealing your attention
constantly.
That's their job.
(24:42):
That's the reason why theyexist is to make whatever
company runs the app, make themmoney by getting your attention.
So there there's this termattention economy.
Like attention is your, is thecommodity that these, that this
technology is really trying tosteal, and it's doing a great
job.
And so we have to intentionallycounteract that by teaching our
(25:05):
families, by teaching our kids,that that's not the highest
priority and that they can waituntil they have a fully
developed or let's not say fully, because then we'd all be
waiting until we're like 30, buta more sad, like a more stably
developed prefrontal cortex,before we give them access to
all of that stuff, to givingthem access to the full, the
(25:29):
full range of apps that canstart stealing their attention
Right, we want to wait untilthey're a lot older.
Michaela (25:36):
Well, I think about, like I think we've talked about
this on one of the otherpodcasts Well, like, I think of
all of the shorts and all of thethings that, like you know, um,
if you go on Disney and theyhave like the Spider-Man and
they're short videos and they'reliterally like so short and I'm
like how is that already over,right?
(25:56):
Um, but there's, you know,tiktok shorts and YouTube shorts
and and all of these things aregeared to drag people in and
then keep them there becauseit's constantly changing.
You're like what's coming next,what's going to be next?
Right, and it's and it'saltering.
In a kid, I think, you know,there's probably some pruning of
(26:20):
their brain that's going onthere.
So, like, when we don't usesomething, we lose it.
And, especially in our childhood, our brain is getting rid of
things that it doesn't need,right to help prepare us for
adulthood.
And, and in that, if we arenever sustaining attention on
(26:41):
things, if we're always seekingto be watching something, that
you know be engaging insomething and being entertained
constantly, that's alteringwhatever's going on in the brain
.
That's altering our dopamineresponse in our brain as well,
because we're getting thesereally high hits of dopamine and
I don't I don't want to sayit's always addiction, right,
(27:05):
because people can utilizedifferent things and not get
addicted per se, but it ispotentially altering our
dopamine response and you know,you've talked about before,
teens have lower dopamineresponse at baseline, and so you
know we're, we're making thingsworse by constantly having some
(27:26):
kind of thing that's drivingthat dopamine up and then low,
and then up and then low.
And I think that, like videogames are so fun for them, right
, they're so fun, and so liketaking a shower or doing laundry
or the dishes or coming, evencoming to eat food is much less
(27:46):
desirable for them and that'sgoing to make it harder to
engage in things and haveenjoyment.
Laura (27:53):
It's true, and when you talked about the video games, it
reminds me of just beingengrossed in this world where
you don't actually have to getup and exert any energy or work
for anything.
You're just engrossed in aworld where the rewards are just
(28:13):
coming at you with very littleeffort.
The pleasure is constantlythere, you have no sacrifice,
you have instant gratification,and that really increases your
receptivity to the impulsivity.
So it's perpetuating this cycleof addiction and impulse
(28:37):
control issues because there isno practice.
Like you said, if you don't useit, you lose it.
If you're not practicing calmwaiting, if you never have to
wait for anything, you're notgoing to have that skill.
If you never have to work foranything, you're not going to
use that skill.
If you are just getting fedthese rewards and you don't
(28:58):
actually have to put in anyeffort or work.
I mean, I understand thatplaying the game in and of
itself is the effort, but that'snot the same kind of work that
we're talking about here.
We're not talking about thegratification of a clean kitchen
after scrubbing down thecounters or cleaning a sink full
of dirty dishes and puttingthem all away, and you have this
(29:18):
nice, clean kitchen, cleaning asink full of dirty dishes and
putting them all away and youhave this nice, clean kitchen.
That isn't being learned inthat pivotal time of childhood.
When the time is being spent onso many video games and on so
many screens and outside of thereal world, we're not embodying
the effort that it takes and thegratification and the response
(29:38):
to having succeeded at a hardtask.
Michaela (29:42):
We have to do hard things in order to learn how to
tolerate difficult experiences,and so we really need to be
mindful of the amount of timeour kids that you know, even
(30:02):
just in ADHD, I think that youknow these kids aren't able to
focus and pay attention tothings, and so it's a really big
challenge.
They haven't learned, sothey're not learning the skills
of how do I study, they're justskating by right.
(30:23):
And so when I start workingwith adults that never got
diagnosed as a kid, I tell thema lot.
I'm like this medicine thatwe're going to try is going to
help you.
It's going to be the thing thathelps you sustain attention on
that task.
It's going to help you overcomethe motivational issues that
will to accomplish it right,because you're like you might be
(30:46):
like I really need to do that,and you're like, nah, later.
Right, because it just doesn'tsound.
I don't have enough dopamine toget myself to do it right.
So the medicine is going toovercome those things, but it's
not going to make you have aclean house.
It's not going to help youlearn how to be organized, and
so you have to learn the thingsthat you didn't learn as a kid
because you weren't capable oflearning them then you weren't,
(31:07):
you know, pushed and encouragedto learn those skills.
Then you have to do it now,because the medicine's not going
to do that for you.
It's going to help you sustainwhat you choose to do longer,
but it's not going to make you,all of a sudden, an organized
person.
Laura (31:22):
It's not going to give you skills that you didn't learn
in childhood.
So, going back to the gardener,we need to be good gardeners
and teach these skills and dohard things and say to our kids,
like I love that you're havingso much fun on this game and our
time is up for today.
It's so exciting that you getto play again tomorrow.
I love that and it's reallyreally hard.
(31:45):
As somebody who my kids dabbledin like literal professional
gaming Okay, I get how difficultit is.
Trying them away from thecomputer was not an easy thing
to do, but we do have to makethose sacrifices and teach the
kids that their sacrifice isworth their time and and start
(32:05):
giving their brain therealization that dopamine can
come from other places too.
Oh, man.
Michaela (32:11):
But the hardest thing for our ADHD all kids, but
especially ADHD kids, is gettingoff video games and switching
tasks and it can create such bigangry feelings.
But you know, I think that itlike I I think that made me
think of it from like what youwere saying.
It's like, hey, it's okay to befrustrated, it's going to be
(32:34):
angry about this.
I get this.
You seem angry.
Let's go bake some cookies,right.
Let's go do something different.
Let's go, you know, hang.
Let's go do something different.
Let's go, you know, hang out.
Just because you can't playvideo games anymore Doesn't mean
that you're, the world is over,right.
Let's go do find something elseto do.
Let them have their feelings.
Sit there with them, help themthrough it.
It's not the end of the worldfor you as the parent either
(32:56):
when they're having those bigfeelings.
You just need to support themwith those feelings.
And it's hard and it's uglysometimes, right, like I hate
you.
You're the worst, right, and wefeel bad when our kids talk to
us like that.
Laura (33:13):
Yeah, it's the most heartbreaking thing when our
kids lose control and they dosay those things and it really
hurts and then we use to.
We need to be able to talk toour adult support system and be
able to get our feelings outabout that.
But when a kid is having ameltdown, you know, I use I say
oof all the time.
I'm like oof, this looks hard,this looks like you're having a
(33:35):
really hard time.
I'm with you.
You must be really upset tohave said that when I know that
you don't mean it.
Or you must be really upset tohave said that when you know
that it's a hurtful thing to sayright, because you're a kind
person and that's that's outsideof character for you.
That must you must be feelingreally, really like this is too
much right now, right.
Michaela (33:55):
I know it feels that way right now.
You know it's okay, I stilllove you.
Laura (34:02):
Yeah yeah, validating statements is not the same thing
as agreeing with them, right.
And when we are able to attuneto and connect with our kid when
they're having a meltdown, themeltdown will go by much, much
faster.
And I don't know.
Go outside, do something in.
(34:23):
I know it's 1 million degreeshere in Arizona right now, but
you can go outside.
Go outside, take a walk innature, listen to birds, listen
to the water in like a river oryou know a waterfall, or have
some kind of have some kind ofconnection moment that you can
just shift the attention tosomething.
(34:45):
That's using your senses, yoursounds, your smells, your sights
.
You're doing somethingdifferent with different
textures.
Maybe you're touching somethingbecause we want to activate the
body, to sort of slow down themind and sort of get out of this
like internalized situation ofI'm miserable, I can't deal with
(35:07):
this because I have to switchtasks.
We want to get out of thatinternal stuff and get into the
external stuff.
So taking a walk outside can bereally helpful.
Michaela (35:15):
And so they might need to do this thing before they
can go on to the next task thatyou really want them to do.
This thing, before they can goon to the next task that you
really want them to do, you knowthey might need something in
between the task switching tohelp them calm down, one of the
interesting things that I'vebeen trying with my kids.
So, you know, all of us thathave kids can empathize with,
(35:36):
like the fighting in thebackground, right, like you're
driving in the car and they'rethey want to hit, they want to
yell at each other, they'reangry, right.
And it's been so interesting tosee even just one kid that's
dysregulated in the background.
Like I'm like, okay, can youpoint out all the things that
are green right now, find allthe things that are green.
(35:57):
Oh, good about blue.
What's blue, what is blue?
And no joke, if at least one ofthe kids can get engaged, like
they will just start sayingthings and then boom, done,
they're not fighting anymore.
Laura (36:10):
it's like yeah, and you didn't even have to address the
fighting, right?
Oh, not at all, it's wild.
So that's a grounding skill.
Yes, you're using groundingskills because the fight isn't
the problem, the dysregulationis the problem, and so when we
recognize that the the contentis not the problem, the process
(36:31):
is what we need to address.
We need to address the processof a dysregulated nervous system
and a dysregulated mind, and wecan do that by focusing on
something that is easy, that isaccessible, that is sensory,
that is something completelydifferent than what was going on
before.
So we're not talking about thefight, we're not logicking,
we're not lecturing because PS,that doesn't help, right.
(36:55):
A dysregulated kid and thentrying to have a conversation
and make them say sorry, itdoesn't really go that well, it
really doesn't, and all we'reteaching them in that moment is
to be quiet or lie appease.
We're saying please and appeaseRight.
We're saying stop with youremotional response.
(37:16):
You need to please and appeasethis other person Right, which I
don't love that.
Michaela (37:22):
And your feelings don that matter and your feelings
don't matter.
Yeah, which is not ourintention, right?
We just want it to be over with, because we can't handle them
yelling and screaming at eachother anymore for the 18th
million time today.
That's right.
Laura (37:36):
We are all good intentions no, I say this all
the time but parents aren't justjerks.
We're doing the best we can.
We have good intentions.
We're not making these mistakesbecause we just don't care
about our kids and we'recomplete jerks.
That's not what's happening atall.
We do care about their feelings, we do care about their
(37:56):
happiness and we do care abouttheir wellbeing, and that's why
we're so intent on helping themachieve wellness and helping
them achieve happiness andhelping them achieve a wellbeing
.
But we don't necessarilyrealize that our words and our
actions are sometimescounterintuitive towards our
goals.
Michaela (38:12):
Yeah, I mean, kids are smarter than what I would have
ever given them credit for, like, as a like, you know,
non-parent, right?
I didn't understand the valueof the words that we use and the
way that we say things, and youknow how it can make a huge
difference.
You know, even just the factthat kids need choices was
(38:36):
something that really, really Ididn't ever think about before,
right?
So kids want autonomy.
Even my seven or my four-year,almost four-year-old, thinks
that they're grown.
They think they know everythingalready.
They're not even teenagers yetand they think that they know
what's best for them.
And so we need to be givingthem choices so that kids have
(39:00):
choices, so that they can havethat autonomy, to be able to
feel like they have some controlover their lives.
And that's really reallyimportant in ADHD kids, because
they specifically will ignitethat counter will and from
Gerber Mate, and so that counterwill is something that I have
(39:21):
learned a lot about having myown children.
They, even if they want to dothe thing that you want them to
do, if they don't feel like theyhave choice, they are going to
fight you on it more likely, andit's going to be a big deal.
And so if you just offer them,would you like to get in the
bath now or in five minutes?
I'd like to do five minutes.
(39:42):
Can you set a timer?
Sure thing, I will set a timerfor five minutes and they won't
argue with the timer.
Most of the time, most of thetime.
Not all the time, but most ofthe time.
Laura (39:54):
And it's so.
I love that.
You said kids' choices, by theway, because the question wasn't
would you like to get in thebath?
Right.
Would you like to get in thebath now or in five minutes?
Right, because that's thechoice.
The choice is not whether ornot they do the thing, so you
know.
Going back to technology, wouldyou know, are you ready to get
(40:17):
to stop playing your video game?
That's not the question, right?
We're going to ask themdifferent questions.
We're going to say would youlike to stop now and help?
You know, right before you know, or would you like me to get
you five minutes before dinner?
Maybe it's only six minutesbefore dinner, who knows, but
we're going to get them up.
You know what I mean.
Like, we're going to give themthose choices that make sense
and that are actual kids choicesthat they, they can answer and
(40:40):
we can grant them the authorityto make that choice and we can
respect that choice.
So we don't want to give themfalse choices.
We don't want to give themchoices that we're not ready to
uphold.
For example, bedtime Never aska kid if they're ready for bed,
unless you're literally curiousfor bed.
(41:03):
Unless you're literally curious, because unless you're asking
out of curiosity.
It's not a valid question.
Michaela (41:05):
I'm sure that there are kids out there that do say,
yeah, I'm ready for bed Not mine, but I'm sure that they exist
out there somewhere.
Laura (41:14):
I'm sure they do.
I have met very few of them.
I don't know any kids who willsay, yes, I'm ready for that.
But it's really important thatwe are recognizing that
motivation right.
The laziness we talked about,the lack of motivation that we
see in kids with ADHD and a lotof kids and teens and humans.
Motivation comes from internalmotivation, at least, comes from
(41:39):
purpose, autonomy and mastery.
You have to have those threeelements in order to achieve
internal motivation.
So external motivation might belike rewards or prizes or
something like that.
That's what you're getting fromthe video game, that's what
you're getting from the computer, that's what you're getting
from the phone.
Is this external motivation?
And so we want our kids to bemotivated internally.
(42:02):
And in order to have internalmotivation, we have to have
purpose, autonomy and mastery.
So how do you teach?
Michaela (42:10):
your kids.
How do you help your kids learnhow to develop those skills?
Because that sounds reallyimportant.
Because that sounds reallyimportant.
Laura (42:19):
I mean you start with purpose, which is consistent
expectations.
Purpose is I know what I can doin order to achieve success.
I know what I can do in orderto not achieve success, and so I
have to be really, reallyconsistent.
And so when we talk aboutconsistency, I mean down to the
letter.
If you say, if you do thatagain, I'm not going to let you
(42:44):
continue to play with that toy,and then they do it again and
you still let them play, you'vegone off the rails.
Now this is very difficult.
Let me just classify this.
But one thing that I've said toparents and kids in this moment
(43:04):
is you deserve for me to meanwhat I say, and say what I mean
and be a person of my word.
And so I told you that if youdo that again, I have to take
that toy away.
I'm bummed about it too, but ifI didn't, what kind of message
would I be sending to you?
That's not even fair to you forme to not take this toy Now.
(43:27):
I told you that would be whatwould happen.
So that means I gave you theopportunity to be successful.
Now, if I don't uphold my end,which is taking away the thing,
then you're never going to knowhow to be successful, which
would have been to listen thefirst time.
So we're learning an importantlesson here, right?
So if I don't take the toy now,I'm saying, I'm saying you may
(43:51):
or may not win in this situation.
It's a gamble which leads tothat behavioral addiction kind
of process, right, it's like ifyou don't know whether or not
the response is going to be good, but there's a chance that it
goes fine, I'm going to takethat chance almost every single
time, right?
And so it's like why I hit theslot machine button again after
(44:12):
17 times of losing?
Right, I hit it again becausethere's a chance that it goes
well for me.
And so we need to not be theslot machine.
We need to be consistent everysingle time.
We say what we're going to doand we do what we say.
Michaela (44:27):
Which is why it's important to pick your battles
with these kids.
Laura (44:32):
And be careful what you threaten these kids and be
careful.
Michaela (44:39):
be careful what you threaten, right?
Yeah, well, that makes me thinktoo about like video games and
having that conversation aboutboundaries around, or like being
consistent around them and likethe punishment fitting the
crime kind of situation.
Like you know, um, making surethat you're like, oh, you went
over five minutes on your videogames again.
You know that that means thatyou're like, oh, you went over
five minutes on your video gamesagain.
You know that that means thatyou're going to get five minutes
less tomorrow because youalready spent the day right.
(45:01):
Like that's a naturalconsequence type of situation
that you, you pre-discuss withthem, you know beforehand,
absolutely, so they know howthey can be successful.
Laura (45:14):
That's their purpose.
They know exactly what they cando.
Now the autonomy is thatthey're given the opportunity to
succeed or fail, and we have tobe the accountability here.
If we're not the accountability, then we've taken away their
autonomy to succeed or fail, sowe need to be able to let them
do the thing without remindingthem 17 times.
Oh, you went over five minutes,okay, well, we're starting five
(45:35):
minutes.
Okay, well, we're starting fiveminutes later tomorrow, right,
if you get video game timebetween five and 6 PM, well, now
you're starting at five.
Oh, five, yep, right, and youend sharply at six.
So you're taking the time offthe beginning, by the way, not
the end.
Um, yeah, so just saying Ididn't think about that.
So that's good.
Good, when we are shaving time,we shave it off the beginning,
(45:58):
not the end, but anyway, whenwe're so, we have that autonomy
of like.
Okay, you are in charge ofgetting off of your video game,
and then I'm going to come andcheck on you after five minutes
just to make sure that you didwhat you were supposed to do,
right, and if they didn't do thething, well then we're going to
shave that time Now.
If they consistently cannot dothe thing, maybe they're not
(46:21):
ready for the autonomy and weneed to go back a step to
purpose and we need to sayremember, let's do the reminder,
let's do the timer, let's doall the things in order to
support you in being successful.
Right, so that's your purpose,your autonomy, and then your
mastery is hey, great job, youdid the thing, you set your
(46:44):
timer, you used your timer, yougot off the game and you did it
perfectly, and so that meansyou're going to have all your
time tomorrow, and everybody'sso excited about that.
I love that.
You can play for the full hourtomorrow.
I'm so happy for you, becausethat's all I've ever wanted for
you is you to achieve your goals.
I'm so happy for you becausethat's all I've ever wanted for
you is you to achieve your goals, right, right so it's a
different way of looking atthings.
Michaela (47:04):
I like that.
So what else can we do to helpwith?
You know, people with focusissues?
Let's say, maybe it's.
Laura (47:20):
ADHD?
Maybe it's not ADHD.
Dr Dan Siegel says time in.
So time in is a mindfulnesspractice that basically gives
you an opportunity to practicefocusing your attention on
whatever it is you're doing.
He calls it time in.
So you're in your focus, you'rein your mind.
So, like, let's say, I'mfocusing on this microphone that
(47:41):
I'm looking at right now.
So I'm just noticing it, I'mnoticing the pattern on it, I'm
noticing the color, I'm noticingthe shape, I'm noticing the you
know, the smoothness of it, theeverything about it.
So I'm like really focusing myattention on this.
Um, that's an external thingthat I can take time into.
Like, maybe think about mythoughts about this microphone.
Like, maybe I am havingquestions about it, maybe I'm,
(48:03):
but I'm staying on this topic ofthe microphone.
Um, he uses a great example inone of his books uh, when you're
doing the dishes, like, oh, I'mdoing this dish, I'm noticing
the soap is blue.
I'm noticing the water is warm,I'm noticing the way it feels
on my hands, right.
So you're taking time in,you're really noticing what's
going on in that moment andreally it's I don't know a
(48:25):
minute two minutes depends onhow many dishes you have but
you're spending a couple ofminutes just noticing what's
going on, and if your mindstarts to wander, that's not a
big deal.
But you want to try to bring itback, because what you're
learning is how to bring it back.
That's the exercise.
That's the practice is to bringyour mind's attention back to
the thing that you originallyset out to focus on.
Michaela (48:46):
Right, and when you're doing mindfulness, it's really
important not to beat yourselfup that your mind wandered,
cause I heard that a number oftimes.
You're like well, I just mustnot be very good at it.
Or like I was really mad atmyself, like, no, your mind is
going to wander.
Laura (49:01):
Right Minds wander.
Michaela (49:02):
That's what they do, right we're just trying to get
stronger by strengthening theconnection of staying focused.
Laura (49:10):
That's right.
So if I'm trying to exercise aparticular part of my body, that
doesn't mean that it's not okayto also, you know, do some
squats.
You know, in between my pushups, like I can shift, I can do
multiple things.
It doesn't have to be this onething.
But what I'm doing is I'mremembering oh, I'm going to
focus really hard on my pushupstoday, and then I'm also going
(49:34):
to maybe go for a walk or I'malso going to go for a jog.
So, like, your mind is capableof doing many things, there's
nothing bad about that.
What we want to do is we want topractice one area, and that's
what we're trying to kind ofaccomplish in that moment.
And there's nothing bad aboutany other stuff that comes up,
because you can jot that down oryou can change your focus and
you can say, oh, this is muchmore fun, I want to focus on
(49:56):
this that I just came up with,and then you can reset your
timer, right, if you want toreally practice.
Okay, I'm going to focus onthis for one minute, all right,
great, start small, start short,start slow, like 30 seconds a
minute.
I've started clients with threeseconds.
I mean, come on, it's fine,anything is fine.
Michaela (50:20):
Yeah, well, and I think that, like, we talked a
lot about motivating ourselvesto do things and, you know,
outside of one, definitelyfinding the internal motivation
and how to strengthen that inyourself as an adult and help
encourage that in your children.
But also like just tellingyourself I'm just going to do it
(50:40):
for five minutes, do it for oneminute, I'm just like the task
that you don't want to do.
Right, I'm just going to start,because starting is typically
the hardest part, um, and so ifyou can just get yourself
started, that's great.
Other things that you can dothat help pay for that dopamine
is a cold shower.
(51:00):
Those are really hard to comeby here in Arizona right now.
Fill a tub up with ice.
There's plenty of places outthere, um, even the gym down the
road has like an eight, like acold therapy thing.
So there's plenty of placesthat have cold therapy options.
You can, you know, do a coldshower.
You know, if it's winter time,you can get in your pool.
(51:21):
Um, most people are not goingto do that, but some people do.
Um.
And then also exercise.
You know you talked aboutpushups and things like exercise
actually is a great thing to tohelp with building up paying
for that dopamine and so doingsomething harder than whatever
it is that you were trying to do, that will help it become less
(51:42):
hard.
Laura (51:43):
Absolutely.
I love that and I think youknow there's so many ways that
we can give ourselves a littlebit more credit.
That, I think also really helps.
So when you do the thing,credit that I think, also really
helps.
So when you do the thing, beexcited about it right, Tell
your brain that was awesome andthat's important.
(52:04):
And so what you're doing isyou're reminding your brain hey,
look for more opportunities togive yourself credit, Look for
more opportunities like this,because you're saying to your
brain hey, that's reallyimportant.
By intentionally acknowledgingsomething good, you're teaching
your brain what to look for inthe future.
Michaela (52:20):
I love that.
Everything that I think aboutfor helping with ADHD is that
we're starting a lot of timesfrom a place of extreme
disorganization and it'soverwhelming to think about
trying to get organized.
I remember, like when we movedhere a couple of years ago, all
(52:43):
my office stuff I had so manypapers from like college I'd
been out of college for a whilenow but never wanted to go
through them Right, but neverwanted to go through them Right.
And so, like I, just every dayon my break, I would just shred
something Right.
And so slowly, slowly, overtime you whittle it all down
(53:04):
Right.
So you're not going to try tounpack your whole room in one
sitting.
You're not going to try to gothrough that old file cabinet of
taxes that have been sittingthere for 15 years.
You're going to.
You're not going to do that inone time.
You're going to say, okay, well, every day I'm going to do five
minutes of this.
Or, you know, on the weekendI'm going to spend 10 minutes
each day and I'm just going todo this thing, and so it's going
(53:26):
to get done over time.
You're going to have to startby just trying to organize your
pantry first, and then maybeyour closet, you know.
So you kind of have to pick andchoose the things where you
need to start, but just findingit and just saying I'm just
going to work on it for thisamount of time.
I'm not going to try to get toa point where I've done it all
in one.
Laura (53:45):
Yeah, I love that time.
Boxing your tasks and choosingsomething small, taking one
thing at a time Um, those areall really, really good.
I think we have some good tipshere and good reminders for us
too, so thank you.
Michaela (53:59):
Yeah, I don't think you have to have ADHD to do
these things either.
Laura (54:05):
Cause you know I think these are helpful for everyone.
Well, thank you for listeningto.
Why am I like this?
If you like our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
your favorite podcast platform.
Follow the show and share itwith your friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, laura Wood and
Michelle Bieber.
Our theme song is Making EndsMeet by Thick as Thieves, and a
(54:28):
special thanks to BenefairyCounseling and Coaching and
Active Healing PsychiatricServices for sponsoring our show
.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.