July 21, 2025 • 38 mins
Intrusive thoughts are unwanted, involuntary thoughts that pop into our heads and can cause distress when our brains get stuck in loops trying to make sense of them.
• Intrusive thoughts are normal but can become problematic when we can't let them go
• Our brains create these thoughts as warning systems when we feel anxious or threatened
• Childhood experiences and parenting styles can influence what intrusive thoughts we develop
• Neurodivergence (ADHD, autism, OCD) can make it harder to inhibit thought loops
• Assigning meaning or morality to intrusive thoughts only strengthens their grip
• "You are not the author of your thoughts—you are the reader who gets to decide what to keep and what to delete"
• Techniques like cognitive defusion, visualization, and humor can help manage intrusive thoughts
• Treating intrusive thoughts like "brain spam" helps create distance from them
• Trying to suppress thoughts makes them stronger—what we resist persists
• Improving sleep, reducing stress, and seeking therapy can reduce intrusive thoughts
• Supplements like inositol may help reduce intrusive thoughts in some cases
If you like our show, please leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Follow the show and share it with your friends.
Laura's Free Course on Emotional Development and Regulation:
https://benavieri.com/neuroception-sign-up/
This show is sponsored by:
Core Self
Benavieri Counseling & Coaching
www.benavieri.com
Active Healing Psychiatric Services
www.activehealingpsych.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura (00:02):
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:12):
And I'm Michaela Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Michaela, why are we doing thispodcast?
Hey, I'm so glad you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better how the
things you learned aboutyourself and the world in
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
(00:36):
things about ourselves that wemight wonder about, like why am
I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
Why are my thoughts so randomor negative?
Why do I feel like I have tofix things all the time?
Laura (00:53):
Yes, and have you ever had a disturbing, random or
unwanted thought pop into yourhead and wondered, like, what is
wrong with me?
That's what we're talking abouttoday.
We're going to try to answerthe following questions what are
intrusive thoughts, why do Ihave them and what can I do
about it?
So let's get into it.
(01:14):
What are intrusive thoughtsLike?
What does that even mean?
Michaela (01:19):
I love that you asked so.
Intrusive thoughts are likeunwanted, involuntary things,
images, words and impulses thatcan be really distressing to us,
that just kind of pop into ourhead, and sometimes they're
things that, like we, we can'tstop having that thought, like
(01:42):
they're kind of um, we ruminateon them.
Laura (01:51):
Okay.
So like when something comes upand you just like go like over
and over and over in your headand you're just like why can't I
stop thinking about this?
Michaela (01:54):
Yeah, but they're often like a little bit
distressing, like disturbing, solike, and not always, maybe
it's other things, but, like youknow, have you ever been
driving?
And you're like what wouldhappen if I drove off the ledge
here?
Like what would that be like?
Right, so then, like, then youkind of.
Then you start thinking like,oh my God, that's so weird, why
(02:15):
did I just think that Now Ican't stop thinking that you
know, and you're like what'swrong with me that I can't stop
thinking about swerving into,swerving off the road.
Laura (02:25):
I've totally had that thought.
I wonder if everybody listeninghas had that thought, because I
can picture it like I'm drivingon the freeway and I can even
like picture a place on thefreeway where I usually have
that thought and it's a specificlike curve and I like think
about it every time I go aroundthat curve.
Like what if I just like hitthis semi truck right now or
(02:46):
something?
Or like what if I just likedrove off the road into this
median, like what is wrong withme?
Why do I think that?
Michaela (02:54):
Well, and so I think that, like you know, in like a
normal brain who doesn't havethese like intrusive thoughts
that won't go away, they, wemight have that thought.
And then we're like, well, thatwas weird, I'm not going to
drive into traffic, like I'm notgoing to drive off the freeway
or hit a semi, like that wouldreally be painful, like I don't
(03:14):
want to do that.
And then they, and then we moveon.
Or I think other times, youknow, some people try to have
that thought and then, like, forsome reason, they might think
like there's something wrongwith them or like it's so weird
that they have that thought, andthen they try to figure out why
.
Or like they just that thatjust keeps coming back and
coming back and that makes themfeel even more anxious and upset
(03:37):
because it's like that egodystonic, like it goes against
what we actually want.
We don't actually want to driveinto traffic, but like we keep
having this thought and it justmakes us really scared.
Laura (03:50):
Yeah, like, I can imagine somebody having that
thought and feeling like doesthat mean I want to do this?
Like?
Does that mean that, like is mybrain telling me that, like I'm
suicidal?
Or like is my brain telling methat this is something that I
want to do?
Like I want to hurt myself orsomething like that?
Like, but it's important toremember that our thoughts, like
(04:12):
aren't necessarily facts, likethey don't necessarily mean
anything.
They're sort of just theserandom clouds that pop up and
like I think about it like aword bubble, and then just like,
let it float away.
You know, let it just, let itjust phase out of existence,
like it doesn't have to stay.
But, like you were saying, likesome people, like everybody has
(04:32):
thoughts, everybody has theselike random thoughts and
sometimes they have likedistressing or disturbing
thoughts, but not everybody'sbrain loops on them, right, like
.
So that's kind of thedifference.
So everybody has intrusivethoughts, which are those like
unwanted, involuntary thoughtsor whatever that pop into your
mind, but you know they're notalways stuck there.
Michaela (04:56):
Right, well, and I wonder if it has something to do
with already being in anxiousdistress, like maybe we're
already hypervigilant from pasttrauma, or where our nervous
system is just dysregulated andthen fight or flight, and then
we start having these thoughtsand then our brain starts
looping on these thoughtsbecause it's trying to solve a
(05:19):
problem.
Right, part of our brain thinksthat, like, if we can figure
stuff out, then we can fixthings Right, and then it
becomes this mental checking ormaybe like at some point, like
doing the like compulsive action, if there is one, like you know
, worrying about things is not,it is one of your coping
(05:40):
mechanisms.
So then I have to worry aboutthis to solve it, and so then we
get into this.
That starts the loop, right, mm?
Laura (05:45):
hmm, yeah, coping mechanisms, so then I have to
worry about this, to solve it,and so then we get into this.
That starts the loop, right?
Yeah, I like that.
You said worrying as a copingmechanism, because basically
what's trying to what'shappening in our nervous system
is our like.
The worry is a response tothreat, right?
So we have this perceived threatwe might not recognize what it
is, so we don't always know whatour triggers are, or whatever
(06:08):
but then our brain like does athing in response to that and
that thing is designed to returnus back to our stable like
central nervous system, that is,you know, in homeostasis.
So the worry itself is actuallya response to the threat,
designed to help us calm down,like it's designed to like fix
the thing, and so the intrusivethought could be doing the same
(06:32):
thing.
So like, for example, if youknow, if I'm leaving the house,
and every single time I leavethe house like I think, oh, did
I leave my flat iron on, orsomething like that and then I
for the rest of the day, oh, Ileft it on, I left it on, I left
it on, I need to call, I needto check, I need to go home and
make sure that it's off, orwhatever and then maybe that
(06:54):
thought develops into somethingbigger, like my house is going
to catch on fire and I'm goingto come home and it's going to
be this horrible thing.
So the threat is, you know,just like that little feeling of
anxiety that pops up first, andthen it's like my brain is like
oh, what's the anxiety for?
Oh, it's because of this.
And it tries to solve it, triesto figure it out, tries to
prevent something bad fromhappening by telling me I need
(07:15):
to worry about it all day.
Michaela (07:16):
Right, exactly.
And so then that starts thisoveractive warning system, and
our brain is just constantlyscanning for danger, even when
it's imagined, like we can'tknow that our house is on fire,
that whatever, but it's animagined threat that we're kind
of worrying about.
Laura (07:35):
Yeah, what are some other reasons why we might have
some of these intrusive thoughts, like what could cause?
So we've got like this sort ofthreat response, idea of like
something happens that we don'treally perceive like fully in
our consciousness and then ourbrain sort of makes it make
(07:55):
sense by like giving us athought about it.
What's another reason why wemight have intrusive thoughts?
Michaela (08:01):
Um, well, yeah, I was thinking about this and I'm
thinking like something fromchildhood caused us to kind of
um, see the world in a certainway.
Like um, for example, like whatif, um, you know, in childhood
we're sleeping and like all of asudden, like we hear ruckus and
(08:25):
like our parents are reallylike upset or there's something
happening and they're like goback to bed or like they think,
and somehow this person, the kid, believes that like someone
broke into the house orsomeone's going to break into
the house, like the parents werereally worried, that like they
heard a noise and then they makea really big deal out of it and
now like, like, maybe thischild believes that like there's
going to be a break in right.
(08:47):
They feel, maybe they feel okayas long as their parents can
protect them, but then once theymove out on their own later on,
that, like something happens,they hear a noise and it
re-triggers that, that responsefrom the past.
And then now they're, you know,in that fear response and
they're, you know, always havingto go check the doors or
thinking about like what ifsomebody breaks in?
(09:07):
What if somebody breaks in?
Laura (09:09):
Mm-hmm, okay.
So like an event thatspecifically triggers or creates
this thought and then thisthought kind of keeps coming
back up when it's triggered.
I also think that parents canlike almost install intrusive
thoughts by like worrying aboutspecific things, right.
Michaela (09:32):
So like if I have a parent who's constantly saying,
you know, buckle up, or you'regoing to go through the
windshield, or something likethat, like I don't know, I have
this, like I mean it's funnythat you said that because,
literally, um, just, I was, mykids are, you know, traveling
(09:54):
right now, and and um, they'rein the car and um, somehow the
buckle got undone, or somethinglike that.
And, um, my, my youngest goes,it's okay, I'm gonna die.
Anyways.
I'm pretty sure that, like he'smade comments like well, if I,
if I don't buckle, like I'mgonna die, like if I'm not
(10:15):
buckled, I'm gonna die, Like now, like kind of believes that,
based on like something thatsomebody said to him, Like, at
some point he must have heardthis information.
Laura (10:23):
That's funny, like, yeah , if you are constantly kind of
telling your kids like at somepoint he must've heard this
information.
That's funny, like, yeah, ifyou are constantly kind of
telling your kids like you'regoing to die if you don't buckle
up, or like you're going to flythrough the windshield or
whatever, right, like, if you'resuper worried about that and
you have a lot of anxiety,that's going to create like a
mark, like an imprint on thatkid's brain and then that kid
(10:44):
might start having intrusivethoughts about, like, flying
through the windshield, right,like, envisioning themselves
going through the windshield,like or the, and then they might
start to um, like, dream aboutit or think about it when it's
like not when they're notactually driving, like or you
know, then they might somecommon themes of intrusive
thoughts is actually beingafraid that something bad will
(11:04):
happen to somebody else in theirfamily, so, like, they might
start thinking about like thisbad thing that could happen to
themselves or someone else.
Michaela (11:12):
Like, if we have a lot of like, worry or anxiety about
a specific thing and we kind ofuse these extreme measures to
like, create a response in ourkids, yeah Well, and you know
what I thought when, when youwere talking, was literally,
like God, parents can't win,like we're everything, um, and I
(11:37):
think that it's just it's hardbecause you don't know what
internal message that they'regoing to hang on to, Right, and
you're like trying to do a goodthing, you're trying to make
sure that they know thatbuckling up is really important,
right?
And so I guess, like, if you'veunintentionally, you know given
your kid this message, thereare things that you can do about
(11:57):
it to help them cope with it orwhatever.
But you know we want to, youknow, I guess the good thing is
we want to try to help provideawareness that, so that we can
be mindful that words areactually pretty important.
And I didn't know this, like Ididn't really realize how
important the way that we saythings, how important that is.
Laura (12:20):
I know.
So I was thinking the exactsame thing, like as I was
thinking about you know, parentsand their impact on intrusive
thoughts and kids like parentsare.
Really parenting is for losersonly.
Like we cannot.
We are not able to win ever.
I feel that deeply right and sowe just can't get everything
(12:45):
right.
And that's true, right Likewe're a product.
Every child is a product oftheir upbringing and their
environment and all these otherfactors.
But I also never realized howpowerful my actions and my words
and my consistency and, youknow, I never really realized
(13:08):
how impactful that is and I feellike this is a whole nother
episode.
But we really have this hugeability to impact the way that
our kids think and the way thatthey feel.
But we also don't have controlover everything.
So when our kids do have theseintrusive thoughts, you know we
don't necessarily have to blameourselves.
(13:29):
Like, let's not play the parentblame game.
I don't want to do that, youknow.
It's just.
Michaela (13:36):
Intrusive thoughts can be a response to, like, stress
and anxiety, and also a responseto change and response to, um,
any kind of environmental factorthat's going on or genetic
factors, right Like there's alot of pieces of the puzzle that
have to come together to tocreate these, you know,
intrusive thoughts and make thembe a problem, so it's not just
(13:59):
one thing, yeah.
Laura (14:02):
Yeah, Like for neurodivergent folks like I was,
you know, thinking about ADHD,autism, OCD, some of those
thought regulation systems likein our prefrontal cortex are not
necessarily, as they don't haveas much capacity to inhibit the
you know, the continuation ofthose thought loops.
So we're not, they don't havethat organization to like
(14:25):
recognize when the thought needsto stop and move on to a
different thought, so we kind ofget that stuck loop.
And that's really common forpeople who have any kind of like
neurodivergence in the way thattheir brain works.
Michaela (14:40):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because those breaks
aren't able to go.
Oh, I don't need to think aboutthis or that was weird and like
I'm going to move on.
It's like we just get kind oflike like that the song, like
it's stuck in our head and wecan't get rid of it.
You know, it just keeps playingover and over and over again.
Laura (15:05):
That's exactly right and we reinforce these thoughts in
so many unintentional ways,right?
So when we have these thoughts,we often will take action on
them and then that reinforcesthat we're supposed to have the
thought like that the thoughtwas helpful or necessary.
So, for example, if my thoughtis that you know I left my flat
iron on and then I go back andcheck and turn it on like you
(15:25):
know it's off, but I checkedanyway like I might next time
tomorrow have that exact samethought, right, because what
wires together, fires together.
It's creating this pattern.
It's creating this necessity orthis automation in our brain,
like our brain wants to beefficient, our brain wants to do
(15:45):
the right things all the timeand like create patterns and
automations.
And so if I do something once,it often will automate and
create this like pattern.
Michaela (15:54):
Which is really helpful.
Thank you, brain, because if wehad to think about everything
all the time, we wouldn't getanything done right.
It was me to the muscle memoryand things.
Otherwise, we would literallyhave to, like, think through the
process of trying to take adrink right or trying to brush
our teeth right, like, but it'sso second nature.
(16:15):
We can be, you know,multitasking and thinking about
other things while brushing ourteeth right.
It's a good thing that ourbrain does that.
It's just sometimes, you know,it learns to do the wrong thing.
You know.
Now, all of a sudden, we'relike oh, I need to remind you of
this a hundred times todaybecause it was helpful that one
time it decreased your anxietyto go do that and we don't want,
(16:37):
and then you felt better.
So let's keep doing that.
Laura (16:48):
Right, exactly, the action is a coping mechanism.
So a lot of times we take thethought, we assign it as fact or
make it mean something and thenwe do something about it.
But what we need to know isthat we don't always have to
react to our thoughts.
We don't have to act on it.
Having a thought doesn't meanwe believe it.
It doesn't mean we want to havethe thought.
It doesn't mean we will act onit.
We don't have to make thatchoice, like what was that you
(17:08):
said about the author.
Michaela (17:11):
Yeah, so you are not the author of the thought, you
are the reader who gets todecide what to keep and what to
delete.
Laura (17:22):
I love that Like I'm not the author, I'm the reader.
So this thought comes in, it'sin my word bubble and I'm just
reading it.
I don't necessarily have to ownit as, like the creator, I
don't have to own it as theintender of the thought.
Like just because they'reintrusive thoughts doesn't mean
they're intentional thoughts.
Like I can't control mythoughts and there's a lot of
(17:43):
therapies out there that focuson changing thoughts after they
happen, which kind of like Ithink, gives people the illusion
that we can like control ourthoughts.
But we can't.
We can change our focus andchange our thought after we have
the first thought Right.
That initial bubble isinvoluntary.
(18:05):
That's just a thing brains do.
Michaela (18:07):
Yeah, I like that.
I like thinking about it like abubble.
I usually tell people that youknow they can't.
You know if it's not a goodthought, right?
How do you know it's not a goodthought, right?
We're going to pay attention tohow our body feels.
We're going to start noticingthat we feel anxious and we're
going to go.
Oh yeah, I was just thinkingabout you know how I was going
(18:27):
to swerve into traffic andyou're like, well, that's weird,
and I'm going to take that andI'm going to crumble it up and
I'm going to just throw it inthe garbage, get rid of it.
Another therapist that I usedto work with Um, another
therapist that I used to workwith, he he said, like sending
it down the conveyor belt, likewe're just going to put it, let
it go, right, yeah.
Laura (18:45):
And sometimes I think about an EMDR.
We kind of think about being ona train and like watching
things pass by.
So like we're just, I'm justgoing to watch it out the window
Like it's passing by, I'm goingto keep moving, it's going to
go, like it's just going to stayin the past, and so we don't
have to necessarily interactwith it, like when we are
(19:07):
experiencing intrusive thoughts,and then we interact with it by
saying why am I having thisthought?
Like what's wrong with me?
You know why this is really bad?
What if this really happens?
Like all of these ways that I'minteracting with this thought,
I'm keeping it, these ways thatI'm interacting with this
thought, I'm keeping it aroundlonger and I'm making it more
important than it really isRight, and so I tell my brain to
(19:28):
focus on it.
Michaela (19:29):
Yes, exactly, and that's one of the things that
you should not do.
So, you know, you try not tolike, focus on it and read like
you're.
You're just strengthening thosepathways If you keep
reinforcing it, right?
So instead, we're, we're goingto like, name it, we're going to
go.
Oh, that was an intrusive, thatwas just a thought.
(19:51):
It was an intrusive thoughtwe're going to.
If you think about it, likeyour email and things are
supposed to go to spam, this isjust like oh, it's brain spam,
let's get rid of it.
Let's send it to the trash,right, we're not going to put it
in our inbox, we're going tolet it go and we're going to,
you know, name it so that we canfeel better.
Laura (20:11):
I love that brain spam.
I'm going to start using that.
This is brain spam.
This is not helpful to me.
This is not necessary.
I did not subscribe.
I'm going to subscribe to thisbrain spam right now, definitely
what I'm going to start doing.
I love that.
That's so helpful.
I think you know one of thethings like the other thing you
(20:34):
know that we've been talkingabout is making it a thought
bubble and just like popping thebubble you know, just boom,
like it just goes away.
Michaela (20:43):
Well, and then another thing is is like, don't assign
morality or meaning to thethought, and I think this is
where a lot of people get stuck,especially if it's like a
violent thought, right, likepeople are thinking about
hurting others, or like thatfeels really, really
uncomfortable to them, and thenthat must mean that they're a
terrible person because theyhave that thought.
(21:04):
And so then that just furtherdrives the anxious distress
which then tells your brain hey,you're distressed, I need to
keep reminding you of this sothat you, you know, can be okay,
right, like this is important.
You know, whenever it's reallyanxiety provoking, our brain
attributes like importance to it, right, and then we get
(21:29):
reminded of it more.
So you're like really justactually like strengthening
those pathways.
Laura (21:33):
In that, in that moment, Well, yeah, and then I like
what you said about notassigning, like, morality to the
thought or any kind of like um,this doesn't mean anything
about you, right?
Because I think sometimes wethink that the way that we feel
and our thoughts like define us.
(21:55):
But I heard someone say once,like your thought is not who you
are, it's just a thing thatyou're having.
Right, it's just a thing thatyou're having, it's just passing
by.
Your feelings are not who youare, they're just things that
you're having.
You don't have to act on them,you don't have to engage with
them, you don't have to likeelevate them to make them mean
(22:16):
something more than they reallymean.
And our brains, though, are likeautomatic meaning makers.
Oh yeah, just want things tomean something.
Like.
If I showed you a picture oflike a half drawn dog, you'd be
like oh, that's a dog.
You wouldn't be like that's ahalf drawn dog, you would say
that's a dog, right, like we puttogether the meaning of it, and
(22:39):
then it would be confusing.
When I drew it into like anumbrella or something, and then
like what happened?
That doesn't make sense,because that's not what we
expected.
Like, our brain wants to makethese thoughts mean something.
And when we are saying like hey, that's not what it means, it
doesn't say anything about you,like that's kind of an
unexpected response, and so itcan feel kind of confusing, like
(23:01):
why did I have that?
What if that's not who I am, orif I don't want that, or you
know, why would I come up withthat, why would my brain do that
?
You know, have that thought.
Michaela (23:12):
Yeah, you know what I was thinking about as you were
talking about that was rememberthose like, um, those pictures
that, like you cross your eyesand you like, yes, and like
sometimes people see like anelephant and then other people
see like a person's face.
Some, like sometimes justbrains see different things, you
(23:35):
know, and so like, does it meansomething that I saw an
elephant and not a person's face?
No, no, anything.
It just means that that's theconnections that my brain put
together, right?
Laura (23:48):
So, yeah, those are the things that are connected, those
are the things that areassociated, and I think it can
be scary, you know, when we havethoughts about hurting
ourselves or thoughts abouthurting someone else, like often
those are some themes ofintrusive thoughts.
Like I can remember and we weretalking about this before we
recorded, like as when I had ababy, I would have like
(24:09):
intrusive thoughts about like,oh my gosh, what if something
horrible happened to my childRight, like, and then I would
like, I would like visualize itand then I would have, you know
this, this horrible thought thatlike something really bad has
happened.
And that's a really commonexperience with postpartum,
especially postpartum depression, ocd and anxiety.
Those things can come up a lotand they don't mean that you're
(24:30):
a bad parent or that you want tohurt your child, they're just
scary.
Michaela (24:36):
Yes, and then you get scared.
You're already in a likestressful I'm sleeping, you know
, I don't know what I'm doingsituation and it just kind of
further amps things up, right.
The other thing that people doto like they think it's going to
(24:56):
be helpful but they like go onReddit and they Google and they
like try to get reassurance, orlike they like want to keep
playing it over and over andover in their head so that they
can figure out how to solve it,how to fix this.
How do I not think this again,like what can I do, you know, to
fix me?
Those things are just going tocontinue to amp up anxiety and
further like reinforce thosepathways so that you can you
(25:18):
know whether it's theinterestrusive thoughts that
you're going to continue or thatthat anxious distress of worry
and trying to search thingsamplifies.
One of the two happens.
Laura (25:30):
Yeah, for sure.
It reinforces those pathwaysand it also like draws your
attention to it.
So anytime we draw ourattention to something, it makes
our brain think that it'simportant and it's going to draw
our attention to it again inthe future.
Like, for example, if you'reever like about to buy a new car
and you're like, oh, I'm goingto get, like I'm going to get a
Camaro right Now, every car Isee is a Camaro.
(25:54):
Are there more Camaros on theroad right now?
Nope, no.
But I told my brain Camaro isan important thing and I want to
focus on it, and so now I'mseeing all the Camaros that are
going on.
So it's kind of the same thing,like if you tell your brain
it's important, your brain isgoing to go back to it over and
over.
Michaela (26:13):
Yeah, I don't think.
I think everybody's probablyexperienced that, Like all you
know that so many people hadthat kind of vehicle.
Laura (26:20):
Yeah, Like I, you know, think about the that phenomenon
all the time when it comes towhat you're like, focusing on or
what you notice in the world,like as we go through, cause we
can't notice everything right.
Our brain has to automate stuff.
It has to, you know, it has tofilter, and so we can.
(26:44):
We can control that filter alot of the time by giving our
brain the information that wewant it to pay attention to, by
saying like and that's whythings like this isn't about an
intrusive thought, but like.
That's why things likegratitude journals are really
helpful, because when we focuson the things and we tell our
brain that it's important, wenotice it more often.
Michaela (27:06):
Yeah, well, and that also makes me think that about,
like people, what they learnedin childhood and like what they
saw, and how that might affectand increase the likelihood that
they were they developintrusive thoughts, right Like
because of what they experiencedand what was always seen.
Laura (27:25):
that is going to increase their risk for having
intrusive thoughts just becausethat's just what they were
exposed to, and when we have alot of anxiety and worry, a lot
of the time we will try to like,prove it wrong Right, like we
often will try to proveintrusive thoughts wrong and say
(27:46):
like no, that's not true,here's why.
Or you know the, you know Iwouldn't do that, I would, I
would never hurt anyone.
Like I would, you know that's.
And then we're basically whatwe're doing is we're telling our
brain like, oh, you're silly,like you're stupid, like why are
you thinking about that kind ofthing?
And that's not validating andthat's not like supportive to
(28:08):
making change.
So like, instead of trying toprove it wrong, what parents can
do and what we can do is stopand say, oh, I'm having that
thought, that's interesting orthat's weird, like I don't need
to do anything about that.
Michaela (28:24):
Instead of trying to suppress it and like not go away
and say, don't have thatthought, don't have that thought
, right.
Laura (28:32):
Right, like I think about like a well-meaning parent
saying something to their kidlike, oh, don't think like that,
you know what I mean and that,but that doesn't change anything
.
Like we, what we resistpersists, as you always say, and
we, you know, make it bigger by, you know, suppressing
(28:53):
something it actually, like,tends to grow.
I kind of think about it like alittle kid who, like wants his
mom's attention.
If I try to, like ignore them,are they going to stop or are
they going to get louder, louderfor sure, right?
So like you can think of yourintrusive thoughts as, like,
little kids that are trying toget your attention, like you
have to give it your attention,like look it in the eye and say,
(29:15):
like I see you and I'm in themiddle of something, so let me
go ahead and get back to that.
Michaela (29:21):
Yeah, exactly, it's like the um.
Don't think of the pinkelephant, right, right.
Try not to think of it, try notto picture it in your head.
Everybody's picturing a pinkelephant right now.
Laura (29:34):
I know, I certainly am immediately Right.
Michaela (29:38):
So it's like what we, what we're, you know you're
having to interact with it tosuppress it.
Laura (29:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so labeling it, naming it,kind of giving it a like calling
it brain spam, it naming it,kind of giving it a like calling
it brain spam.
You know, the other thing thatwe can do is a practice called
cognitive diffusion, which is away of creating distance from
the thought.
It's just basically saying,like that thought is a million
(30:06):
miles away or that thought is,you know, I don't need to hold
that thought really close, likethat doesn't have to be like in
the front, like I'm going tomove that thought to the back,
like that one goes in the filecabinet, like way back here,
instead of like upfront, where II I've got this stack of papers
, like let me put this in thediscard pile.
Michaela (30:25):
Yeah, what about like thinking about it Like you know,
how you said, like an old movieor like making it into a
cartoon narration or somethinglike that, so like you know,
trying to change it in some wayso that doesn't feel so real, or
like kind of uses, like itmakes it kind of like funnier.
You can use humor to managethose thoughts sometimes.
Laura (30:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
Or if it's like something thatinvolves you know you can
manipulate the things that areinvolved, like if it's like a
thought about like you with likea weapon or something, or like
noticing a weapon or having aweapon, or like you can turn the
weapon into a pineapple or intolike a banana or something like
that you can manipulate thethought and kind of say like, oh
(31:12):
, what if that was a bananainstead?
And like that wouldn't be asscary.
You can because you are able to.
Once your thoughts come, youare able to, like, look at them
and manipulate them and changethem, because they're in your
head, like they're yours, to dowhat you want to do with them.
(31:33):
And then, like sometimes Iadvise people to, like you said,
make it a cartoon or play itlike an old timey movie, like on
the little screen, like whereit's like do, do, do, do, do, do
, do you know?
Like, and then everybody's kindof running around in black and
white.
That can be helpful too.
Michaela (31:53):
Yeah, definitely Obviously.
Then too, like you know, ifpart of the problem is that,
like anxious distress and thingslike that, doing the things
that work for you, that you knowwork to decrease your anxiety,
is also going to be helpful atdecreasing the intrusive
thoughts, like I think that themore dysregulated we are, I
(32:18):
would assume the more likelythat intrusive thoughts get
worse, right yeah, like sleepdeprivation, high stress, like
isolation and anxiety and youknow, things that decrease your
general window of tolerance,like those things impact your
ability to tolerate, like yourlife and your experiences and,
like your, your distress.
Laura (32:39):
So if we're, if we're having those things, if we're
having those experiences already, like we're sleep deprived,
we're isolated, we're on ourphones too much, we're we have
high stress, we're not takingcare of ourselves, well, like
we're going to have more we'regoing to be more likely to have
(33:02):
those thoughts.
Michaela (33:02):
Sure, yeah, well, and there are some supplements that
I use often that will actuallyimprove intrusive thoughts
specifically, specifically, likeinositol has been really
helpful at decreasing intrusivethoughts in people, it's safe in
kids and so, you know,sometimes that's something that
(33:23):
we use to decrease intrusivethoughts from like a supplement
standpoint.
Obviously, like you know, thatwould be you know medication and
things like that, depending oncase by case situations, but
there are, there are options andthings that can be helpful from
like a medication managementstandpoint to help with managing
intrusive thoughts too.
Laura (33:44):
That's interesting.
I had no idea.
That's really cool that there'sstuff out there that is like
possible to sort of help withthis, with this stuff.
And you know, if you're feelinglike you're having these
thoughts they're unmanageableand you're engaging with the
content, like you're maybeacting on the thoughts or you
(34:04):
feel like you have to act onthem and you're having these
compulsions, like sometimes it'shelpful to go get therapy, like
to talk to someone, to talk itout, like we're as sick as our
secrets, right?
So a lot of the times we havethese thoughts and I can
remember this as like a mom whenI first had my baby and I was
having thoughts like this, likeI didn't want to tell anybody, I
didn't want anybody to know,right, and that just makes it
(34:26):
worse, right.
So when we are not sharing,when we're not letting it out,
when we get into the shamespiral of having the shame and
the guilt about the thoughtsthat are and they say this bad
stuff about me and I don't wantanybody to know and what will
people think of me and and allof that stuff can be really
harmful and really unhealthy.
Michaela (34:47):
And so it's sometimes we need to seek help, like we
need to go talk to someoneunhealthy and so it's sometimes
we need to seek help, like weneed to go talk to someone, and
this is something that we hearvery frequently.
And so you know, as providers,you know from therapy and
medication management, stufflike that is totally a
judgment-free zone, like it's a,it's the safe place, you know
(35:08):
where, where you're going to beable to share that stuff without
any, like you know, having tofeel that guilt and shame for
letting somebody else know, orwhat are they going to think
about me?
Because we don't think anythingabout you.
We know that these thingshappen for many reasons and
we're just there to help supportpeople, but I can't tell you
(35:28):
how many times I've been seeingpeople for months before they
feel comfortable enough to sharethe kind of intrusive thoughts
that they're having.
Laura (35:36):
Yeah, for sure.
I can relate to that as aclinician as well, like where
people just don't feelcomfortable saying what their
thoughts are and they don't wantto admit it because there's so
much shame, and so it's reallyimportant that you recognize, or
that you can know, that it'sokay and normal to have thoughts
like this, Like it doesn't sayanything about you, it doesn't
(35:57):
mean anything about you, and youknow, a therapist is somebody
who is going to hear you andappreciate what's going on for
you and not judge you or blameyou or belittle you for having
those experiences.
Yeah, yeah, well, I feel likewe've covered a lot of ground
(36:20):
here and given some helpfulresources for dealing with these
intrusive thoughts.
Any last ideas that we canthrow out there to make sure
that we're giving some somereally good advice here?
Michaela (36:37):
Man, I feel like we really did cover a lot of the
things.
You know, I, I always learnsomething whenever we have these
conversations, and so I think,yeah, we're just going to, I'm
going to take away, like I, Ithink that I'm not, we're not
the author of our thoughts, yes,and just because we had a
(36:57):
thought doesn't mean it's a fact, right, and I think it's
important to know that, like, wecan do something about that,
right, I mean, it's not easy.
It sounds easy when we're justtalking about it.
It's like, oh yeah, just dothis, and it sounds easy.
When we're just talking aboutit, it's like, oh yeah, just do
this, and it sounds really easy.
But it's something that takes alot of work, right, those
pathways are really reinforcedby the time.
(37:17):
People get help, right, andthey don't even know.
Like sometimes, especially inkids, they don't even know that
it's not normal to think thatway, right, and so you know, I
think that it's important toknow that, like we're not, we're
not, it's not bad, it doesn'tmean anything about us, and we
can choose to take that thoughtand throw it away, and we can
(37:40):
learn to manage the thoughtsthat they're not, they're never
going to go.
The thought itself may nevercompletely go away, but the more
you unenforce that pathway, theless that thought continues to
happen.
Right, it may still happen fromtime to time, but it doesn't
affect us in the same way.
Laura (37:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that.
That.
You can make some, you canchange it and do something about
it and you're not the author.
That's a really good takeaway,a good place to end today.
So thank you so much, Michaela,as always, for this
conversation and thank you forlistening to why Am I Like this.
If you like our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
(38:19):
your favorite podcast platform.
Follow the show and share itwith your friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, Laura Wood and
Micheala Beaver.
Our theme song is Making EndsMeet by Thick as Thieves, and
special thanks to Core SelfBeanvieri Counseling and Active
Healing Psychiatric Services forsponsoring our show.
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:12):
And I'm Michaela Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Michaela, why are we doing thispodcast?
Hey, I'm so glad you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better how the
things you learned aboutyourself and the world in
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to figure out why arewe like this, those random
(00:36):
things about ourselves that wemight wonder about, like why am
I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
Why are my thoughts so randomor negative?
Why do I feel like I have tofix things all the time?
Laura (00:53):
Yes, and have you ever had a disturbing, random or
unwanted thought pop into yourhead and wondered, like, what is
wrong with me?
That's what we're talking abouttoday.
We're going to try to answerthe following questions what are
intrusive thoughts, why do Ihave them and what can I do
about it?
So let's get into it.
(01:14):
What are intrusive thoughtsLike?
What does that even mean?
Michaela (01:19):
I love that you asked so.
Intrusive thoughts are likeunwanted, involuntary things,
images, words and impulses thatcan be really distressing to us,
that just kind of pop into ourhead, and sometimes they're
things that, like we, we can'tstop having that thought, like
(01:42):
they're kind of um, we ruminateon them.
Laura (01:51):
Okay.
So like when something comes upand you just like go like over
and over and over in your headand you're just like why can't I
stop thinking about this?
Michaela (01:54):
Yeah, but they're often like a little bit
distressing, like disturbing, solike, and not always, maybe
it's other things, but, like youknow, have you ever been
driving?
And you're like what wouldhappen if I drove off the ledge
here?
Like what would that be like?
Right, so then, like, then youkind of.
Then you start thinking like,oh my God, that's so weird, why
(02:15):
did I just think that Now Ican't stop thinking that you
know, and you're like what'swrong with me that I can't stop
thinking about swerving into,swerving off the road.
Laura (02:25):
I've totally had that thought.
I wonder if everybody listeninghas had that thought, because I
can picture it like I'm drivingon the freeway and I can even
like picture a place on thefreeway where I usually have
that thought and it's a specificlike curve and I like think
about it every time I go aroundthat curve.
Like what if I just like hitthis semi truck right now or
(02:46):
something?
Or like what if I just likedrove off the road into this
median, like what is wrong withme?
Why do I think that?
Michaela (02:54):
Well, and so I think that, like you know, in like a
normal brain who doesn't havethese like intrusive thoughts
that won't go away, they, wemight have that thought.
And then we're like, well, thatwas weird, I'm not going to
drive into traffic, like I'm notgoing to drive off the freeway
or hit a semi, like that wouldreally be painful, like I don't
(03:14):
want to do that.
And then they, and then we moveon.
Or I think other times, youknow, some people try to have
that thought and then, like, forsome reason, they might think
like there's something wrongwith them or like it's so weird
that they have that thought, andthen they try to figure out why
.
Or like they just that thatjust keeps coming back and
coming back and that makes themfeel even more anxious and upset
(03:37):
because it's like that egodystonic, like it goes against
what we actually want.
We don't actually want to driveinto traffic, but like we keep
having this thought and it justmakes us really scared.
Laura (03:50):
Yeah, like, I can imagine somebody having that
thought and feeling like doesthat mean I want to do this?
Like?
Does that mean that, like is mybrain telling me that, like I'm
suicidal?
Or like is my brain telling methat this is something that I
want to do?
Like I want to hurt myself orsomething like that?
Like, but it's important toremember that our thoughts, like
(04:12):
aren't necessarily facts, likethey don't necessarily mean
anything.
They're sort of just theserandom clouds that pop up and
like I think about it like aword bubble, and then just like,
let it float away.
You know, let it just, let itjust phase out of existence,
like it doesn't have to stay.
But, like you were saying, likesome people, like everybody has
(04:32):
thoughts, everybody has theselike random thoughts and
sometimes they have likedistressing or disturbing
thoughts, but not everybody'sbrain loops on them, right, like
.
So that's kind of thedifference.
So everybody has intrusivethoughts, which are those like
unwanted, involuntary thoughtsor whatever that pop into your
mind, but you know they're notalways stuck there.
Michaela (04:56):
Right, well, and I wonder if it has something to do
with already being in anxiousdistress, like maybe we're
already hypervigilant from pasttrauma, or where our nervous
system is just dysregulated andthen fight or flight, and then
we start having these thoughtsand then our brain starts
looping on these thoughtsbecause it's trying to solve a
(05:19):
problem.
Right, part of our brain thinksthat, like, if we can figure
stuff out, then we can fixthings Right, and then it
becomes this mental checking ormaybe like at some point, like
doing the like compulsive action, if there is one, like you know
, worrying about things is not,it is one of your coping
(05:40):
mechanisms.
So then I have to worry aboutthis to solve it, and so then we
get into this.
That starts the loop, right, mm?
Laura (05:45):
hmm, yeah, coping mechanisms, so then I have to
worry about this, to solve it,and so then we get into this.
That starts the loop, right?
Yeah, I like that.
You said worrying as a copingmechanism, because basically
what's trying to what'shappening in our nervous system
is our like.
The worry is a response tothreat, right?
So we have this perceived threatwe might not recognize what it
is, so we don't always know whatour triggers are, or whatever
(06:08):
but then our brain like does athing in response to that and
that thing is designed to returnus back to our stable like
central nervous system, that is,you know, in homeostasis.
So the worry itself is actuallya response to the threat,
designed to help us calm down,like it's designed to like fix
the thing, and so the intrusivethought could be doing the same
(06:32):
thing.
So like, for example, if youknow, if I'm leaving the house,
and every single time I leavethe house like I think, oh, did
I leave my flat iron on, orsomething like that and then I
for the rest of the day, oh, Ileft it on, I left it on, I left
it on, I need to call, I needto check, I need to go home and
make sure that it's off, orwhatever and then maybe that
(06:54):
thought develops into somethingbigger, like my house is going
to catch on fire and I'm goingto come home and it's going to
be this horrible thing.
So the threat is, you know,just like that little feeling of
anxiety that pops up first, andthen it's like my brain is like
oh, what's the anxiety for?
Oh, it's because of this.
And it tries to solve it, triesto figure it out, tries to
prevent something bad fromhappening by telling me I need
(07:15):
to worry about it all day.
Michaela (07:16):
Right, exactly.
And so then that starts thisoveractive warning system, and
our brain is just constantlyscanning for danger, even when
it's imagined, like we can'tknow that our house is on fire,
that whatever, but it's animagined threat that we're kind
of worrying about.
Laura (07:35):
Yeah, what are some other reasons why we might have
some of these intrusive thoughts, like what could cause?
So we've got like this sort ofthreat response, idea of like
something happens that we don'treally perceive like fully in
our consciousness and then ourbrain sort of makes it make
(07:55):
sense by like giving us athought about it.
What's another reason why wemight have intrusive thoughts?
Michaela (08:01):
Um, well, yeah, I was thinking about this and I'm
thinking like something fromchildhood caused us to kind of
um, see the world in a certainway.
Like um, for example, like whatif, um, you know, in childhood
we're sleeping and like all of asudden, like we hear ruckus and
(08:25):
like our parents are reallylike upset or there's something
happening and they're like goback to bed or like they think,
and somehow this person, the kid, believes that like someone
broke into the house orsomeone's going to break into
the house, like the parents werereally worried, that like they
heard a noise and then they makea really big deal out of it and
now like, like, maybe thischild believes that like there's
going to be a break in right.
(08:47):
They feel, maybe they feel okayas long as their parents can
protect them, but then once theymove out on their own later on,
that, like something happens,they hear a noise and it
re-triggers that, that responsefrom the past.
And then now they're, you know,in that fear response and
they're, you know, always havingto go check the doors or
thinking about like what ifsomebody breaks in?
(09:07):
What if somebody breaks in?
Laura (09:09):
Mm-hmm, okay.
So like an event thatspecifically triggers or creates
this thought and then thisthought kind of keeps coming
back up when it's triggered.
I also think that parents canlike almost install intrusive
thoughts by like worrying aboutspecific things, right.
Michaela (09:32):
So like if I have a parent who's constantly saying,
you know, buckle up, or you'regoing to go through the
windshield, or something likethat, like I don't know, I have
this, like I mean it's funnythat you said that because,
literally, um, just, I was, mykids are, you know, traveling
(09:54):
right now, and and um, they'rein the car and um, somehow the
buckle got undone, or somethinglike that.
And, um, my, my youngest goes,it's okay, I'm gonna die.
Anyways.
I'm pretty sure that, like he'smade comments like well, if I,
if I don't buckle, like I'mgonna die, like if I'm not
(10:15):
buckled, I'm gonna die, Like now, like kind of believes that,
based on like something thatsomebody said to him, Like, at
some point he must have heardthis information.
Laura (10:23):
That's funny, like, yeah , if you are constantly kind of
telling your kids like at somepoint he must've heard this
information.
That's funny, like, yeah, ifyou are constantly kind of
telling your kids like you'regoing to die if you don't buckle
up, or like you're going to flythrough the windshield or
whatever, right, like, if you'resuper worried about that and
you have a lot of anxiety,that's going to create like a
mark, like an imprint on thatkid's brain and then that kid
(10:44):
might start having intrusivethoughts about, like, flying
through the windshield, right,like, envisioning themselves
going through the windshield,like or the, and then they might
start to um, like, dream aboutit or think about it when it's
like not when they're notactually driving, like or you
know, then they might somecommon themes of intrusive
thoughts is actually beingafraid that something bad will
(11:04):
happen to somebody else in theirfamily, so, like, they might
start thinking about like thisbad thing that could happen to
themselves or someone else.
Michaela (11:12):
Like, if we have a lot of like, worry or anxiety about
a specific thing and we kind ofuse these extreme measures to
like, create a response in ourkids, yeah Well, and you know
what I thought when, when youwere talking, was literally,
like God, parents can't win,like we're everything, um, and I
(11:37):
think that it's just it's hardbecause you don't know what
internal message that they'regoing to hang on to, Right, and
you're like trying to do a goodthing, you're trying to make
sure that they know thatbuckling up is really important,
right?
And so I guess, like, if you'veunintentionally, you know given
your kid this message, thereare things that you can do about
(11:57):
it to help them cope with it orwhatever.
But you know we want to, youknow, I guess the good thing is
we want to try to help provideawareness that, so that we can
be mindful that words areactually pretty important.
And I didn't know this, like Ididn't really realize how
important the way that we saythings, how important that is.
Laura (12:20):
I know.
So I was thinking the exactsame thing, like as I was
thinking about you know, parentsand their impact on intrusive
thoughts and kids like parentsare.
Really parenting is for losersonly.
Like we cannot.
We are not able to win ever.
I feel that deeply right and sowe just can't get everything
(12:45):
right.
And that's true, right Likewe're a product.
Every child is a product oftheir upbringing and their
environment and all these otherfactors.
But I also never realized howpowerful my actions and my words
and my consistency and, youknow, I never really realized
(13:08):
how impactful that is and I feellike this is a whole nother
episode.
But we really have this hugeability to impact the way that
our kids think and the way thatthey feel.
But we also don't have controlover everything.
So when our kids do have theseintrusive thoughts, you know we
don't necessarily have to blameourselves.
(13:29):
Like, let's not play the parentblame game.
I don't want to do that, youknow.
It's just.
Michaela (13:36):
Intrusive thoughts can be a response to, like, stress
and anxiety, and also a responseto change and response to, um,
any kind of environmental factorthat's going on or genetic
factors, right Like there's alot of pieces of the puzzle that
have to come together to tocreate these, you know,
intrusive thoughts and make thembe a problem, so it's not just
(13:59):
one thing, yeah.
Laura (14:02):
Yeah, Like for neurodivergent folks like I was,
you know, thinking about ADHD,autism, OCD, some of those
thought regulation systems likein our prefrontal cortex are not
necessarily, as they don't haveas much capacity to inhibit the
you know, the continuation ofthose thought loops.
So we're not, they don't havethat organization to like
(14:25):
recognize when the thought needsto stop and move on to a
different thought, so we kind ofget that stuck loop.
And that's really common forpeople who have any kind of like
neurodivergence in the way thattheir brain works.
Michaela (14:40):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because those breaks
aren't able to go.
Oh, I don't need to think aboutthis or that was weird and like
I'm going to move on.
It's like we just get kind oflike like that the song, like
it's stuck in our head and wecan't get rid of it.
You know, it just keeps playingover and over and over again.
Laura (15:05):
That's exactly right and we reinforce these thoughts in
so many unintentional ways,right?
So when we have these thoughts,we often will take action on
them and then that reinforcesthat we're supposed to have the
thought like that the thoughtwas helpful or necessary.
So, for example, if my thoughtis that you know I left my flat
iron on and then I go back andcheck and turn it on like you
(15:25):
know it's off, but I checkedanyway like I might next time
tomorrow have that exact samethought, right, because what
wires together, fires together.
It's creating this pattern.
It's creating this necessity orthis automation in our brain,
like our brain wants to beefficient, our brain wants to do
(15:45):
the right things all the timeand like create patterns and
automations.
And so if I do something once,it often will automate and
create this like pattern.
Michaela (15:54):
Which is really helpful.
Thank you, brain, because if wehad to think about everything
all the time, we wouldn't getanything done right.
It was me to the muscle memoryand things.
Otherwise, we would literallyhave to, like, think through the
process of trying to take adrink right or trying to brush
our teeth right, like, but it'sso second nature.
(16:15):
We can be, you know,multitasking and thinking about
other things while brushing ourteeth right.
It's a good thing that ourbrain does that.
It's just sometimes, you know,it learns to do the wrong thing.
You know.
Now, all of a sudden, we'relike oh, I need to remind you of
this a hundred times todaybecause it was helpful that one
time it decreased your anxietyto go do that and we don't want,
(16:37):
and then you felt better.
So let's keep doing that.
Laura (16:48):
Right, exactly, the action is a coping mechanism.
So a lot of times we take thethought, we assign it as fact or
make it mean something and thenwe do something about it.
But what we need to know isthat we don't always have to
react to our thoughts.
We don't have to act on it.
Having a thought doesn't meanwe believe it.
It doesn't mean we want to havethe thought.
It doesn't mean we will act onit.
We don't have to make thatchoice, like what was that you
(17:08):
said about the author.
Michaela (17:11):
Yeah, so you are not the author of the thought, you
are the reader who gets todecide what to keep and what to
delete.
Laura (17:22):
I love that Like I'm not the author, I'm the reader.
So this thought comes in, it'sin my word bubble and I'm just
reading it.
I don't necessarily have to ownit as, like the creator, I
don't have to own it as theintender of the thought.
Like just because they'reintrusive thoughts doesn't mean
they're intentional thoughts.
Like I can't control mythoughts and there's a lot of
(17:43):
therapies out there that focuson changing thoughts after they
happen, which kind of like Ithink, gives people the illusion
that we can like control ourthoughts.
But we can't.
We can change our focus andchange our thought after we have
the first thought Right.
That initial bubble isinvoluntary.
(18:05):
That's just a thing brains do.
Michaela (18:07):
Yeah, I like that.
I like thinking about it like abubble.
I usually tell people that youknow they can't.
You know if it's not a goodthought, right?
How do you know it's not a goodthought, right?
We're going to pay attention tohow our body feels.
We're going to start noticingthat we feel anxious and we're
going to go.
Oh yeah, I was just thinkingabout you know how I was going
(18:27):
to swerve into traffic andyou're like, well, that's weird,
and I'm going to take that andI'm going to crumble it up and
I'm going to just throw it inthe garbage, get rid of it.
Another therapist that I usedto work with Um, another
therapist that I used to workwith, he he said, like sending
it down the conveyor belt, likewe're just going to put it, let
it go, right, yeah.
Laura (18:45):
And sometimes I think about an EMDR.
We kind of think about being ona train and like watching
things pass by.
So like we're just, I'm justgoing to watch it out the window
Like it's passing by, I'm goingto keep moving, it's going to
go, like it's just going to stayin the past, and so we don't
have to necessarily interactwith it, like when we are
(19:07):
experiencing intrusive thoughts,and then we interact with it by
saying why am I having thisthought?
Like what's wrong with me?
You know why this is really bad?
What if this really happens?
Like all of these ways that I'minteracting with this thought,
I'm keeping it, these ways thatI'm interacting with this
thought, I'm keeping it aroundlonger and I'm making it more
important than it really isRight, and so I tell my brain to
(19:28):
focus on it.
Michaela (19:29):
Yes, exactly, and that's one of the things that
you should not do.
So, you know, you try not tolike, focus on it and read like
you're.
You're just strengthening thosepathways If you keep
reinforcing it, right?
So instead, we're, we're goingto like, name it, we're going to
go.
Oh, that was an intrusive, thatwas just a thought.
(19:51):
It was an intrusive thoughtwe're going to.
If you think about it, likeyour email and things are
supposed to go to spam, this isjust like oh, it's brain spam,
let's get rid of it.
Let's send it to the trash,right, we're not going to put it
in our inbox, we're going tolet it go and we're going to,
you know, name it so that we canfeel better.
Laura (20:11):
I love that brain spam.
I'm going to start using that.
This is brain spam.
This is not helpful to me.
This is not necessary.
I did not subscribe.
I'm going to subscribe to thisbrain spam right now, definitely
what I'm going to start doing.
I love that.
That's so helpful.
I think you know one of thethings like the other thing you
(20:34):
know that we've been talkingabout is making it a thought
bubble and just like popping thebubble you know, just boom,
like it just goes away.
Michaela (20:43):
Well, and then another thing is is like, don't assign
morality or meaning to thethought, and I think this is
where a lot of people get stuck,especially if it's like a
violent thought, right, likepeople are thinking about
hurting others, or like thatfeels really, really
uncomfortable to them, and thenthat must mean that they're a
terrible person because theyhave that thought.
(21:04):
And so then that just furtherdrives the anxious distress
which then tells your brain hey,you're distressed, I need to
keep reminding you of this sothat you, you know, can be okay,
right, like this is important.
You know, whenever it's reallyanxiety provoking, our brain
attributes like importance to it, right, and then we get
(21:29):
reminded of it more.
So you're like really justactually like strengthening
those pathways.
Laura (21:33):
In that, in that moment, Well, yeah, and then I like
what you said about notassigning, like, morality to the
thought or any kind of like um,this doesn't mean anything
about you, right?
Because I think sometimes wethink that the way that we feel
and our thoughts like define us.
(21:55):
But I heard someone say once,like your thought is not who you
are, it's just a thing thatyou're having.
Right, it's just a thing thatyou're having, it's just passing
by.
Your feelings are not who youare, they're just things that
you're having.
You don't have to act on them,you don't have to engage with
them, you don't have to likeelevate them to make them mean
(22:16):
something more than they reallymean.
And our brains, though, are likeautomatic meaning makers.
Oh yeah, just want things tomean something.
Like.
If I showed you a picture oflike a half drawn dog, you'd be
like oh, that's a dog.
You wouldn't be like that's ahalf drawn dog, you would say
that's a dog, right, like we puttogether the meaning of it, and
(22:39):
then it would be confusing.
When I drew it into like anumbrella or something, and then
like what happened?
That doesn't make sense,because that's not what we
expected.
Like, our brain wants to makethese thoughts mean something.
And when we are saying like hey, that's not what it means, it
doesn't say anything about you,like that's kind of an
unexpected response, and so itcan feel kind of confusing, like
(23:01):
why did I have that?
What if that's not who I am, orif I don't want that, or you
know, why would I come up withthat, why would my brain do that
?
You know, have that thought.
Michaela (23:12):
Yeah, you know what I was thinking about as you were
talking about that was rememberthose like, um, those pictures
that, like you cross your eyesand you like, yes, and like
sometimes people see like anelephant and then other people
see like a person's face.
Some, like sometimes justbrains see different things, you
(23:35):
know, and so like, does it meansomething that I saw an
elephant and not a person's face?
No, no, anything.
It just means that that's theconnections that my brain put
together, right?
Laura (23:48):
So, yeah, those are the things that are connected, those
are the things that areassociated, and I think it can
be scary, you know, when we havethoughts about hurting
ourselves or thoughts abouthurting someone else, like often
those are some themes ofintrusive thoughts.
Like I can remember and we weretalking about this before we
recorded, like as when I had ababy, I would have like
(24:09):
intrusive thoughts about like,oh my gosh, what if something
horrible happened to my childRight, like, and then I would
like, I would like visualize itand then I would have, you know
this, this horrible thought thatlike something really bad has
happened.
And that's a really commonexperience with postpartum,
especially postpartum depression, ocd and anxiety.
Those things can come up a lotand they don't mean that you're
(24:30):
a bad parent or that you want tohurt your child, they're just
scary.
Michaela (24:36):
Yes, and then you get scared.
You're already in a likestressful I'm sleeping, you know
, I don't know what I'm doingsituation and it just kind of
further amps things up, right.
The other thing that people doto like they think it's going to
(24:56):
be helpful but they like go onReddit and they Google and they
like try to get reassurance, orlike they like want to keep
playing it over and over andover in their head so that they
can figure out how to solve it,how to fix this.
How do I not think this again,like what can I do, you know, to
fix me?
Those things are just going tocontinue to amp up anxiety and
further like reinforce thosepathways so that you can you
(25:18):
know whether it's theinterestrusive thoughts that
you're going to continue or thatthat anxious distress of worry
and trying to search thingsamplifies.
One of the two happens.
Laura (25:30):
Yeah, for sure.
It reinforces those pathwaysand it also like draws your
attention to it.
So anytime we draw ourattention to something, it makes
our brain think that it'simportant and it's going to draw
our attention to it again inthe future.
Like, for example, if you'reever like about to buy a new car
and you're like, oh, I'm goingto get, like I'm going to get a
Camaro right Now, every car Isee is a Camaro.
(25:54):
Are there more Camaros on theroad right now?
Nope, no.
But I told my brain Camaro isan important thing and I want to
focus on it, and so now I'mseeing all the Camaros that are
going on.
So it's kind of the same thing,like if you tell your brain
it's important, your brain isgoing to go back to it over and
over.
Michaela (26:13):
Yeah, I don't think.
I think everybody's probablyexperienced that, Like all you
know that so many people hadthat kind of vehicle.
Laura (26:20):
Yeah, Like I, you know, think about the that phenomenon
all the time when it comes towhat you're like, focusing on or
what you notice in the world,like as we go through, cause we
can't notice everything right.
Our brain has to automate stuff.
It has to, you know, it has tofilter, and so we can.
(26:44):
We can control that filter alot of the time by giving our
brain the information that wewant it to pay attention to, by
saying like and that's whythings like this isn't about an
intrusive thought, but like.
That's why things likegratitude journals are really
helpful, because when we focuson the things and we tell our
brain that it's important, wenotice it more often.
Michaela (27:06):
Yeah, well, and that also makes me think that about,
like people, what they learnedin childhood and like what they
saw, and how that might affectand increase the likelihood that
they were they developintrusive thoughts, right Like
because of what they experiencedand what was always seen.
Laura (27:25):
that is going to increase their risk for having
intrusive thoughts just becausethat's just what they were
exposed to, and when we have alot of anxiety and worry, a lot
of the time we will try to like,prove it wrong Right, like we
often will try to proveintrusive thoughts wrong and say
(27:46):
like no, that's not true,here's why.
Or you know the, you know Iwouldn't do that, I would, I
would never hurt anyone.
Like I would, you know that's.
And then we're basically whatwe're doing is we're telling our
brain like, oh, you're silly,like you're stupid, like why are
you thinking about that kind ofthing?
And that's not validating andthat's not like supportive to
(28:08):
making change.
So like, instead of trying toprove it wrong, what parents can
do and what we can do is stopand say, oh, I'm having that
thought, that's interesting orthat's weird, like I don't need
to do anything about that.
Michaela (28:24):
Instead of trying to suppress it and like not go away
and say, don't have thatthought, don't have that thought
, right.
Laura (28:32):
Right, like I think about like a well-meaning parent
saying something to their kidlike, oh, don't think like that,
you know what I mean and that,but that doesn't change anything
.
Like we, what we resistpersists, as you always say, and
we, you know, make it bigger by, you know, suppressing
(28:53):
something it actually, like,tends to grow.
I kind of think about it like alittle kid who, like wants his
mom's attention.
If I try to, like ignore them,are they going to stop or are
they going to get louder, louderfor sure, right?
So like you can think of yourintrusive thoughts as, like,
little kids that are trying toget your attention, like you
have to give it your attention,like look it in the eye and say,
(29:15):
like I see you and I'm in themiddle of something, so let me
go ahead and get back to that.
Michaela (29:21):
Yeah, exactly, it's like the um.
Don't think of the pinkelephant, right, right.
Try not to think of it, try notto picture it in your head.
Everybody's picturing a pinkelephant right now.
Laura (29:34):
I know, I certainly am immediately Right.
Michaela (29:38):
So it's like what we, what we're, you know you're
having to interact with it tosuppress it.
Laura (29:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so labeling it, naming it,kind of giving it a like calling
it brain spam, it naming it,kind of giving it a like calling
it brain spam.
You know, the other thing thatwe can do is a practice called
cognitive diffusion, which is away of creating distance from
the thought.
It's just basically saying,like that thought is a million
(30:06):
miles away or that thought is,you know, I don't need to hold
that thought really close, likethat doesn't have to be like in
the front, like I'm going tomove that thought to the back,
like that one goes in the filecabinet, like way back here,
instead of like upfront, where II I've got this stack of papers
, like let me put this in thediscard pile.
Michaela (30:25):
Yeah, what about like thinking about it Like you know,
how you said, like an old movieor like making it into a
cartoon narration or somethinglike that, so like you know,
trying to change it in some wayso that doesn't feel so real, or
like kind of uses, like itmakes it kind of like funnier.
You can use humor to managethose thoughts sometimes.
Laura (30:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
Or if it's like something thatinvolves you know you can
manipulate the things that areinvolved, like if it's like a
thought about like you with likea weapon or something, or like
noticing a weapon or having aweapon, or like you can turn the
weapon into a pineapple or intolike a banana or something like
that you can manipulate thethought and kind of say like, oh
(31:12):
, what if that was a bananainstead?
And like that wouldn't be asscary.
You can because you are able to.
Once your thoughts come, youare able to, like, look at them
and manipulate them and changethem, because they're in your
head, like they're yours, to dowhat you want to do with them.
(31:33):
And then, like sometimes Iadvise people to, like you said,
make it a cartoon or play itlike an old timey movie, like on
the little screen, like whereit's like do, do, do, do, do, do
, do you know?
Like, and then everybody's kindof running around in black and
white.
That can be helpful too.
Michaela (31:53):
Yeah, definitely Obviously.
Then too, like you know, ifpart of the problem is that,
like anxious distress and thingslike that, doing the things
that work for you, that you knowwork to decrease your anxiety,
is also going to be helpful atdecreasing the intrusive
thoughts, like I think that themore dysregulated we are, I
(32:18):
would assume the more likelythat intrusive thoughts get
worse, right yeah, like sleepdeprivation, high stress, like
isolation and anxiety and youknow, things that decrease your
general window of tolerance,like those things impact your
ability to tolerate, like yourlife and your experiences and,
like your, your distress.
Laura (32:39):
So if we're, if we're having those things, if we're
having those experiences already, like we're sleep deprived,
we're isolated, we're on ourphones too much, we're we have
high stress, we're not takingcare of ourselves, well, like
we're going to have more we'regoing to be more likely to have
(33:02):
those thoughts.
Michaela (33:02):
Sure, yeah, well, and there are some supplements that
I use often that will actuallyimprove intrusive thoughts
specifically, specifically, likeinositol has been really
helpful at decreasing intrusivethoughts in people, it's safe in
kids and so, you know,sometimes that's something that
(33:23):
we use to decrease intrusivethoughts from like a supplement
standpoint.
Obviously, like you know, thatwould be you know medication and
things like that, depending oncase by case situations, but
there are, there are options andthings that can be helpful from
like a medication managementstandpoint to help with managing
intrusive thoughts too.
Laura (33:44):
That's interesting.
I had no idea.
That's really cool that there'sstuff out there that is like
possible to sort of help withthis, with this stuff.
And you know, if you're feelinglike you're having these
thoughts they're unmanageableand you're engaging with the
content, like you're maybeacting on the thoughts or you
(34:04):
feel like you have to act onthem and you're having these
compulsions, like sometimes it'shelpful to go get therapy, like
to talk to someone, to talk itout, like we're as sick as our
secrets, right?
So a lot of the times we havethese thoughts and I can
remember this as like a mom whenI first had my baby and I was
having thoughts like this, likeI didn't want to tell anybody, I
didn't want anybody to know,right, and that just makes it
(34:26):
worse, right.
So when we are not sharing,when we're not letting it out,
when we get into the shamespiral of having the shame and
the guilt about the thoughtsthat are and they say this bad
stuff about me and I don't wantanybody to know and what will
people think of me and and allof that stuff can be really
harmful and really unhealthy.
Michaela (34:47):
And so it's sometimes we need to seek help, like we
need to go talk to someoneunhealthy and so it's sometimes
we need to seek help, like weneed to go talk to someone, and
this is something that we hearvery frequently.
And so you know, as providers,you know from therapy and
medication management, stufflike that is totally a
judgment-free zone, like it's a,it's the safe place, you know
(35:08):
where, where you're going to beable to share that stuff without
any, like you know, having tofeel that guilt and shame for
letting somebody else know, orwhat are they going to think
about me?
Because we don't think anythingabout you.
We know that these thingshappen for many reasons and
we're just there to help supportpeople, but I can't tell you
(35:28):
how many times I've been seeingpeople for months before they
feel comfortable enough to sharethe kind of intrusive thoughts
that they're having.
Laura (35:36):
Yeah, for sure.
I can relate to that as aclinician as well, like where
people just don't feelcomfortable saying what their
thoughts are and they don't wantto admit it because there's so
much shame, and so it's reallyimportant that you recognize, or
that you can know, that it'sokay and normal to have thoughts
like this, Like it doesn't sayanything about you, it doesn't
(35:57):
mean anything about you, and youknow, a therapist is somebody
who is going to hear you andappreciate what's going on for
you and not judge you or blameyou or belittle you for having
those experiences.
Yeah, yeah, well, I feel likewe've covered a lot of ground
(36:20):
here and given some helpfulresources for dealing with these
intrusive thoughts.
Any last ideas that we canthrow out there to make sure
that we're giving some somereally good advice here?
Michaela (36:37):
Man, I feel like we really did cover a lot of the
things.
You know, I, I always learnsomething whenever we have these
conversations, and so I think,yeah, we're just going to, I'm
going to take away, like I, Ithink that I'm not, we're not
the author of our thoughts, yes,and just because we had a
(36:57):
thought doesn't mean it's a fact, right, and I think it's
important to know that, like, wecan do something about that,
right, I mean, it's not easy.
It sounds easy when we're justtalking about it.
It's like, oh yeah, just dothis, and it sounds easy.
When we're just talking aboutit, it's like, oh yeah, just do
this, and it sounds really easy.
But it's something that takes alot of work, right, those
pathways are really reinforcedby the time.
(37:17):
People get help, right, andthey don't even know.
Like sometimes, especially inkids, they don't even know that
it's not normal to think thatway, right, and so you know, I
think that it's important toknow that, like we're not, we're
not, it's not bad, it doesn'tmean anything about us, and we
can choose to take that thoughtand throw it away, and we can
(37:40):
learn to manage the thoughtsthat they're not, they're never
going to go.
The thought itself may nevercompletely go away, but the more
you unenforce that pathway, theless that thought continues to
happen.
Right, it may still happen fromtime to time, but it doesn't
affect us in the same way.
Laura (37:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that.
That.
You can make some, you canchange it and do something about
it and you're not the author.
That's a really good takeaway,a good place to end today.
So thank you so much, Michaela,as always, for this
conversation and thank you forlistening to why Am I Like this.
If you like our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
(38:19):
your favorite podcast platform.
Follow the show and share itwith your friends.
This episode was written andproduced by me, Laura Wood and
Micheala Beaver.
Our theme song is Making EndsMeet by Thick as Thieves, and
special thanks to Core SelfBeanvieri Counseling and Active
Healing Psychiatric Services forsponsoring our show.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.