August 27, 2024 • 45 mins
Why do we procrastinate even when we know it's hurting us? In this episode of "Why Am I Like This?", we unravel the complex relationship between procrastination and emotional dysregulation. By examining the various factors like fear of failure, lack of motivation, and low self-efficacy, we aim to provide a comprehensive understanding of why postponing tasks becomes a coping mechanism. With personal anecdotes and insights, we also discuss how procrastination intertwines with mental health conditions such as anxiety, ADHD, and depression, making it a far more intricate issue than mere laziness.
Procrastination doesn’t just mess with your deadlines—it messes with your health too. Chronic delays can spike your stress levels, leading to severe physical ailments like heart disease, diabetes, and gastrointestinal problems. We dive deep into the psychological toll, from disrupted sleep patterns to a weakened immune system. To counteract these detrimental effects, we share practical strategies centered around intrinsic motivation and cognitive-behavioral techniques. Learn how breaking tasks into manageable steps and using grounding techniques can not only improve productivity but also significantly reduce stress.
Ever felt like mundane tasks are an insurmountable mountain? You're not alone. We discuss how establishing routines and practicing mindfulness can transform these daily drudgeries into manageable activities. Through personal stories and practical advice, we explore how not being too harsh on ourselves for occasional lapses can foster resilience. From the benefits of social engagement to the power of music and dual attention strategies, find out how you can enhance productivity while boosting your emotional well-being. Join us as we reflect, share gratitude for our listeners, and encourage everyone to keep the conversation going.
Laura's Free Course on Emotional Development and Regulation:
https://benavieri.com/neuroception-sign-up/
This show is sponsored by:
Core Self
Benavieri Counseling & Coaching
www.benavieri.com
Active Healing Psychiatric Services
www.activehealingpsych.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura (00:00):
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:10):
Hi and I'm M Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Laura (00:14):
So, M, why are we doing this podcast?
Michaela (00:18):
I'm so glad you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better, how the
things you learned aboutyourself and the world and
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to know why are we likethis, those random things about
ourselves that we might wonderabout, like why am I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
Why are my thoughts so negative?
(00:39):
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all the time?
Laura (00:45):
Yeah, and today we're talking about procrastination.
So we're going to try to answerthe following questions what is
procrastination, what causesprocrastination and what
strategies can help me getthings done right away?
So let's get into it.
What's procrastination?
Michaela (01:06):
Okay, so I think that procrastination is putting off
tasks even though it could causeproblems for you or other
people.
Laura (01:15):
Okay, which is kind of reminds me I just this occurred
to me right now that addictionis doing a task, even though it
can cause problems for yourselfand for other people.
So I wonder if that's the samemechanism.
But we can get more into thatlater.
I think procrastination is toput off till tomorrow and to do
(01:40):
something against our betterjudgment.
Michaela (01:42):
Okay.
Laura (01:43):
Yeah, those are sort of the words that created the word
procrastination, so I think youknow.
For me, though, procrastinationis an avoidance strategy.
That's what I think ofeverything.
It's a it's a strategy to copewith dysregulation or potential
dysregulation.
So what I mean by that is weput something off in order to
(02:08):
avoid a certain feeling, and soif we're trying to avoid the
feeling of being disappointed,or the feeling of being
overwhelmed, or the feeling oftrying to of being sad, or bad
experiences, we're just puttingit off, putting it off, putting
it off, putting it off, and Ithink a lot of the time, that's
subconscious.
Michaela (02:30):
Yeah, I could see that .
I don't know.
I think that sometimes we don'treally even understand why we
don't want to do the thing thatwe don't want to do, or maybe
it's just that, like, it's justdoesn't seem like fun and I'd
rather be doing something that Ido want to do, I want to be
having fun and enjoying things,and that doesn't sound like fun.
Laura (02:50):
Yeah, I think that's a big one too is we want to do
enjoyable things.
We don't want to do things thatare not enjoyable.
We want to do things that makeus feel productive and fulfilled
.
So like, for example, I'llprocrastinate unloading the
dishwasher because when I unloadthe dishwasher I'm just taking
it from one place to another andmy kitchen looks the same, so
I'm not getting anything out ofit.
Michaela (03:12):
Sure, I don't unload the dishwasher because I'm
distracted by a hundred things.
Laura (03:19):
That's another reason.
So just a general lack oforganization, distractibility, a
general lack of structure androutine, like those things can
make us procrastinate too.
But in general we're justputting something off.
We're just simply saying likeI'm not motivated to do this
right now, like lowself-efficacy rating at that
(03:43):
moment, like I think, oh, I justI can't do it, it's too hard,
so I'm going to put it off.
Or I'm afraid of what otherpeople might think of me.
Sometimes, like a fear ofjudgment is a reason to
procrastinate dealing withsomething Maybe.
That's I don't want tocommunicate with someone, or I
don't want to, you know, go toclass because I didn't submit my
(04:04):
paper and the teacher is goingto judge me, or I'm going to
look stupid in front of myclassmates, so I'm going to
avoid it, I'm going toprocrastinate like even going
and dealing with it at all.
Michaela (04:15):
Sure, I think that this is a really interesting
conversation and it's notsomething that I actually really
considered.
I kind of always havecategorized it oh, we are a
procrastinator, like it's eitheranxiety or it's like, you know,
it's tied to like ADHD orsomething.
But I think that this goesreally way deeper and so I think
(04:39):
about like an experience that Ihad with my kiddo the other
night and he was doing thisextra credit homework assignment
and we're like making it fun,making it enjoyable, but the
minute that he wrote one answerwrong, he was done.
And I know that this isn't likeprocrastination, but I think
that this is a driving force forwhat.
What drives procrastination isthat we want to avoid that
(05:02):
feeling I'm going to make amistake, I'm not good enough,
I'm not, I'm not going to do it,right, right.
And then it's like, oh, I can'tdo that anymore because I I'm
not good enough.
Laura (05:14):
Yeah, I think when we notice that we're avoiding
something, we might think toourselves.
We can kind of identify whywe're avoiding it by thinking to
ourselves what does this sayabout me?
So there's something that I'mavoiding, maybe, and I'm
(05:35):
procrastinating it because Idon't want to be a failure, like
I'm not good enough to get thisdone, I'm irresponsible for
having waited so long, or anyother of these negative
cognitions, and then we kind ofloop in them, and so
procrastination is reallyconnected to rumination, which
can be connected to depressionand which can be connected with
low motivation.
So it's sort of this cycle oflike rumination, negative
(05:58):
thoughts, like depression, andnot really being motivated to
get out of it.
Michaela (06:03):
Well, and I was reading something that kind of
talked about like the stressresponse system and how this is
highly correlated withprocrastination, and so it's
kind of one of those things thatit's twofold so stress can
cause or lead to higher rates ofprocrastination and
procrastination is going toinevitably create more stress.
(06:27):
Because we have, like it's likethis subconscious like thing.
Even if we're not thinkingabout it, we have this list of
things in our head that we knowthat we need to do or that are
left undone.
And as that list grows andgrows and grows, we, we kind of
feel that and we feel morestressed, even if we're not
thinking about all of thosethings.
We just know that there's allthis stuff to do and it gets.
(06:49):
It just makes us feeloverwhelmed and stressed and we
don't know what, we don't knowwhere to start and we don't know
how to get move forward withthat.
Laura (06:57):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think we are going to getmore stressed and we don't know
how to cope with our stress, andso we're overwhelmed and so we
don't deal with it at all and wetotally avoid it.
And then we get more stressedand then we don't know how to
cope, and then we getoverwhelmed and then we don't
know.
So it's this cycle.
I think, about the overwhelmedfeeling all the time of like I
(07:21):
have too much on my plate.
I have to put this off, like Ihave to prioritize different
things.
I was reading an article whereI felt really called out because
it was talking about how peoplesome procrastinators believe
that they like thrive underpressure, but that's not really
the case at all.
It turns out that you're justoverly stressed out, you're
(07:42):
doing probably not as good of ajob when you do it at the end,
and then you're actually likeseeking out this, like reward
response of, like feeling likeyou've beat the odds.
Michaela (07:53):
Yeah, but why do people who procrastinate it's
like they need that that timecrunch to perform?
It's like I can't do it untilit's five hours before it's due.
Laura (08:08):
I think it's that lack of intrinsic motivation.
I think sometimes it's havingthe.
The motivation is that reward,the response that I'm getting
when I finally get it done and Idid it in a short amount of
time.
And now that dopamine hit islike oh, I did this like and I
did it in a short amount of time.
And now that dopamine hit islike, oh, I did this like and I
did it quickly and I still wassuccessful or whatever.
(08:31):
I think also perfectionistictendencies make us put stuff off
right, because if we have, andif we have five hours to get
something done, well, when it'sdone, it's done.
There's no like tweaking it ortinkering with it or finishing,
you know, redoing it, redoing it, redoing it.
(08:51):
Whereas like, if I have fivedays to get it done, I can get
part of it done and then rethinkit and then want to start over
and then start over, and youknow what I mean.
I can kind of get stuck in thiscycle of like perfectionism
where it's not done, it's it hasto be perfect, whereas if I
only have five hours, likedone's done, it's good enough.
Michaela (09:11):
Right.
Laura (09:12):
And so it helps me avoid that sense of like I could have
done a better job.
Michaela (09:17):
That makes sense and that sounds overwhelming to be
worrying about it for five days.
But I'd also think that, like,by not doing it, you're still
worrying about it for those fivedays.
You're just not having to startit over and over and over again
.
Laura (09:31):
Yeah, I think that's a fair argument there's no win in
that scenario Right.
Either way.
It's on your mind, it's on yourbody, it's creating.
You still are experiencing thatstress response because you're
overwhelmed by it.
And so the procrastination is aresponse to that stress and
overwhelm of feeling like I'mnot going to be able to do this
well, or I don't know what I'mdoing, or I'm going to fail at
(09:53):
this.
And if I think I'm going tofail, then I'm going to put it
off and I'm going to dosomething.
I'm going to focus my mind onother things that don't make me
feel like that.
Michaela (10:09):
Yeah, when I think that you know, from a top-down
approach, thinking about likethese negative cognitions and
like these maladaptive thoughtsand things like that, like if we
have a lot of them, then we'regoing to be more likely to
procrastinate, right?
But people who had a lot, whohave better like internal, like
(10:29):
control of being like oh, Iworked really hard, and because
I worked really hard, they havethese like positive cognitions
surrounding it, right, likesurrounding it, like they're
thinking like oh, I workedreally hard and that's what's
leading to me getting a goodgrade, and the people who have a
lot more of those positivethoughts surrounding the work
(10:50):
that they're doing, focusing inon, like how, like their
internal control, I think thatthey have less procrastination.
And it was interesting.
I don't remember what thisstudy was or like.
I think it was just like aconversation that I had with my
brother about this, and so hewas something he read and he was
saying that like there was thisstudy that was done with with
(11:10):
kids and the kids got feedbackfrom the teachers and was like,
oh, you're so smart, good job,you're so smart.
And then, as the content gotharder and harder, the kids that
that they told you you're sosmart, they felt like they were
dumb, and so then they did worseon things, right?
But the kids that said theysaid and said oh, you're such a
(11:32):
hard worker, hey, you're doingsuch a great job.
You're such a hard worker,right?
And those kids who heard yourhard work was what made you do
well, internalize that insteadof I'm smart, and when it got
harder, they worked harder, andso then, instead of I'm smart,
and when it got harder, theyworked harder, and so then they
didn't shut down and then theydid better.
Laura (11:51):
That's very interesting.
That's an example of, ratherthan negative self-talk.
It's positive or neutralself-talk.
Sometimes our self-talk is goodenough at neutral.
It doesn't have to be amazing,right.
You don't have to be like, oh,I'm the hardest worker in the
whole world.
I can just be like, oh, I workhard, that's a positive, that's
(12:11):
a good thing, that's a strongthing.
Like, I can do it, I can dohard things, I can work through
this, I can figure it out, I'mcapable.
Those are some neutral soundingself-talk.
You know options that we canuse.
I think one of the things thatcan go against the negative
self-talk is alsoself-compassion too.
You know having compassion foryourself and recognizing that
(12:35):
you don't have to be stressedout all the time.
You deserve to put this task,you know, to bed and be done
with it and you know moveforward from it.
And you know you don't have towait until the last second.
You can tolerate negativeemotions.
You don't have to avoidnegative emotions.
Sometimes the negative emotionisn't as bad as you think it
(12:58):
will be.
Sure, I think.
A lot of the time we think thatthis negative emotion is going
to be like the worst thing ever,and so we put it off and put it
off, and put it off, but whatwe're really doing is we're
engaging with it and we'rekeeping it on our plates longer
and so, by quote unquote, notdealing with it, we're really
just experiencing it a lot more.
Michaela (13:19):
Right, well, and I just wonder, like I'm guessing
that some people are kind ofborn with some of these traits,
right, and sometimes I thinkthat, like there, it's like that
what wires together, firestogether, thing, like how much
of this is getting created in usas children, like this is what
(13:39):
we learn, and the more that westrengthen those, that network
right, the more we strengthenthat network, the more that
that's what fires, I think.
And so, like, as we, as we tryto, you know, learn from this, I
think we know that we're goingto experience some discomfort as
(14:01):
we try to push through engagingwith these things, but the more
that we strengthen thatconnection, the easier that that
becomes as well.
And so, whatever we, whateverstrategy we use I think that
there's, you know, we canstrengthen that by just working
through it and creating adifferent pattern.
Laura (14:22):
Yeah, we can rewire, and that takes a lot of energy and
effort and intention.
So when we think aboutautopilot, that's our history,
autopilot is our history, that'sour automatic wiring, that's
what we've been, you know,that's what we've created
throughout our lifetime.
Michaela (14:40):
Yeah, rewire, that is hard work but it sounds like it
could be worth it.
Not be able to put that off,right?
I know I think back to you knowwriting papers in college that
was like my oh the worst.
I hate writing papers, but youknow when you put it off to the
(15:04):
last minute it doesn't feel verygood Cause you know that you're
not doing your best.
Laura (15:07):
Put it off to the last minute, it doesn't feel very
good because you know thatyou're not doing your best, yeah
, and studies show that peoplewho procrastinate, don't do like
, tend to not do as well inschool.
They tend not to do well aswell at work.
They tend not to have as muchfulfillment in their lives.
You know, internal motivation,intrinsic motivation, comes from
purpose, autonomy and mastery.
We have to be able to assignourselves the purpose of I can
(15:31):
do this, I'm capable, I'm goingto get this done.
I have these goals, I'mimportant enough to do this
thing.
This goal is important enoughfor me to reach right.
I think we have to have thatsense of ourself, enough to
decide that it matters enough todo this thing, especially when
(15:55):
we procrastinate about ourhealth.
Michaela (15:59):
Yeah, it can definitely be detrimental to our
health.
I'm glad that you brought thatup.
I was thinking about this, youknow, and there are physical
consequences to procrastination,right.
So one we have high stress andwhat we know is that, being in a
(16:19):
state of fight or flight orhigh stress, you have extra
cortisol hanging around.
You know we're going to havenatural consequences of that,
which leads to glucosemetabolism issues, right.
So, leading to diabetes andheart disease, high blood
(16:39):
pressure, right.
So we have hormonedysregulation.
You know there's a lot ofdifferent factors that kind of
go down that pathway that arecontributing factors.
Then we have less adaptivecoping strategies because we're,
you know, not dealing with thethings.
We have poor health behaviors,right.
So we're probably notexercising, we're probably not
(17:01):
taking care of our bodies, we'reprobably putting off going to
the doctor, right.
We don't probably have as goodof quality of sleep, right.
We have all these things on ourmind.
We're probably like, oh man, Iforgot to do that.
Oh, I forgot to do that.
You know, at the end of the daywe're kind of mulling over what
we didn't do, and so thenthere's greater consequences for
(17:21):
physical illness, and I thinkyou know that's.
Those are kind of some of theconsequences that I think of
when I think about this highlevel of stress from
procrastination.
Laura (17:35):
Yeah, and the insomnia from it, the rumination that
you're thinking about all night,like you said, like I've got
all these things that I didn'tdo, that I didn't take care of,
and that's increasing yourstress level and decreasing your
immune function.
It's decreasing your ability tofight infection and to process
your food and to do all of thethings.
(17:55):
So it can lead togastrointestinal distress and
can lead to, you know, gettingsick more often because you're
tired and you're run down andyou're feeling overwhelmed all
the time.
You can relate to some of thosefeelings.
You know, I think, I think Iprobably can, definitely.
Michaela (18:14):
And yet we?
We may know all of these things, and yet we still manage to
avoid things.
Laura (18:25):
I know, isn't that funny .
We're doing all these thingseven though we know it's not
good for us, we know it'sagainst our better judgment and
it's not in our best interest,but we're doing it anyway.
What is our addiction toavoidance?
Michaela (18:36):
Well, and I think that you know it's probably very
depleting of our energy too.
So I think about like, um, oh,I'm just going to throw the cup
in the sink or I'm just going to, I'm not even going to move the
cup, I'm just going to leavethe cup on the table, Right, and
I'm not going to, I'm going toignore it.
I'm not, I'm just going to look.
I can like almost see throughit, Like it's not even there,
(18:57):
Right.
I walked past it a hundredtimes, even on my way to the
kitchen.
I couldn't grab it Right.
And then all of a sudden, now,instead of just having one thing
to do, you have 50 things to do, and so then you're stressed
and you're trying to get allthese things done, and it would
have taken two seconds to do.
But if you just did the onething right away but yeah, we
can't get ourselves to justthink, oh, I should just do it
(19:20):
right now It'll be really easy.
We think, oh, I don't have time, Like, oh, I don't have time,
and it's that thought processthat leads us to ignoring things
.
Instead, if we just you know, Inoticed that that top-down
approach.
Maybe we have to do some bodyup stuff first.
But that top-down thinking, youknow, using our brain to tell
(19:41):
ourselves it'll take two seconds, it's not that hard, versus
being like oh, I'll get it later.
Laura (19:48):
Absolutely, as you were describing that.
I was thinking about how thisis very cognitive behavioral.
This is very cognitivebehavioral and this bottom up
version of that is to take asecond to get regulated.
Take a second to use agrounding skill, get present,
then you can change your thought, so you can change your state
(20:11):
of regulation, and then, with anew state of regulation, you can
change your thought and with anew thought, you can change your
behavior.
And that's what we can see.
Like I have a personal exampleof this.
I'm not a super tidy person.
I'm like I'll leave my dishesin the sink, like I'll do it
tomorrow morning or whatever.
Like I don't have a problemgoing to bed with a sink full of
(20:32):
dirty dishes.
Like people are like I can'ttolerate that.
Like I don't really care.
So this bothers me, right?
I'm a world-classprocrastinator.
I don't want to be aprocrastinator.
I just moved into a smallerhouse so I downsized, so a dirty
kitchen looks a lot worse inthis house than it did in my
other house.
I had a big kitchen.
(20:52):
So I'm like okay, I'm going todo better and I'm going to teach
my kids to do better and we'regoing to do things right away.
So yesterday it's like 10o'clock at night and I'm wanting
to go, I'm like yawning and I'mready to go to bed, and I look
at the sink and I'm just likeI'm not going to do these dishes
, like I don't want to do thesedishes, I can just leave it.
(21:13):
I'll do it tomorrow, it's fine.
And then I was like you knowwhat?
No, because I saw this TikTokone time and it was like, before
you go to bed, you know, putall the dishes in the dishwasher
and run it and, you know, wipedown the counters.
And it was just like thesebasic human behaviors that
everybody needs to do in orderto keep a clean house.
(21:33):
And so I thought of that videoand it like gave me the
cognition that I needed to justbe like, okay, I'm just going to
do it.
Guess how long it took me Likeone minute, literally like one
minute.
It was so not a big deal.
There was like 10 dishes fromdinner or whatever.
I cleaned them, I put them inthe dishwasher, I ran the
dishwasher.
So now today we'll have a cleansink with clean dishes and no
(21:55):
worries, and I could wipe downthe counter and I did all the
things and it took me like maybethree minutes tops to do the
whole thing, because I had tounload the dishwasher to get the
dishes in the dishwasher in thefirst place, right, and so
that's been my new thing.
Where this is, my rewiring isevery night I'm making sure that
the dishwasher is unloaded andI can load the dishes from that
day, right, and this seems likesuch a small thing, but for me,
(22:22):
who is notoriously just not likea Johnny on the spot get this
done right now kind of person,this was like represented the
gigantic change in mypersonality and I had to really
stop myself and regulate andthink about it, and I probably
took a break before I even Iprobably like was thinking, oh,
(22:43):
I'm tired, well, I don't want todo these dishes, but I also
know that I have to do thesedishes before I go to bed.
So let me go, like watch a show, or let me read this last
article, or let me play anotherround of Candy Crush.
So I probably did procrastinate, but only for a couple minutes
instead of for the whole entireday, and then not did it until
today, after I work all day longand then I have to what clean
(23:05):
the dishes before I make newdirty dishes.
Why would I want to do that?
Don't.
Michaela (23:10):
And it's annoying.
I don't know about you, but Idon't have enough knives or
something, or forks.
I have to run my dishwasherevery night because otherwise
there's nothing.
Laura (23:19):
Yeah, we run out of spoons.
Michaela (23:20):
Yeah, I don't know what's wrong with us.
Well, I kind of wonder if mythree-year-old's throwing them
in the garbage on accident orlike you know.
So that's a thing, but anyways,um no, I think that, right,
I've seen it happen.
Um so, but this is how I feltabout like the cleaning of my
house.
You know, there's like thisthought like, oh, I just don't
(23:41):
ever have time, Like I justdon't, I don't ever have time,
Like I just feel like I cannever get it done Right.
And my mom's like, oh, justevery Sunday I do, I do this.
And I'm like, oh, that seemspretty easy.
And now for probably two yearsI've been every Sunday, I do the
things that I do, and I alwayshave a clean floor.
(24:04):
I always have, you know, the,the, the bathrooms are always
clean every single week.
And it's like, oh, I justneeded to like have a routine.
I had to create structure intomy day so that I knew this is
what I needed to do and when Ineeded to do it.
And then it becomes so mucheasier and then, if you, then
(24:25):
you just have to stick to itlong enough that you just keep
sticking to it and it doesn'tseem like it's that chaotic
anymore.
Laura (24:33):
And the other thing with that is when you've stuck to it
and you know that you canreturn to it, and you know how
quick and easy it is to get itdone, you don't have to beat
yourself up about skipping it,right?
So I think that's another thingthat happens is when we are,
let's say, I'm telling myselfI'm going to exercise every day
(24:53):
and then one day I don'texercise.
That can throw me off my wholeentire thing and I might not
exercise again for weeks becauseI thought, oh well, I didn't
exercise that day, so I'm afailure.
I didn't, I'm not good at it,like I didn't do the right thing
or whatever.
I think that language, thatthought process of like I missed
(25:16):
one day of this routine and sonow my whole thing is thrown off
and I no longer am on track.
But that's not true.
If you skip a Sunday or you'reout of town, just do it the next
week, right, and you can getright back on track.
Michaela (25:26):
You can.
I love that.
Well, and I think that too it'simportant to know, cause some
people might be thinking, well,I don't have that thought, Like
I don't know, like I juststopped, I just stopped doing it
, and it's like, well, sometimesthese things may not be fully
like conscious awareness, likeoh, I'm having this negative
thought because there thought,because they become so routine
(25:50):
that we really don't have thethought so much.
Sometimes it's just the feelinglike oh, I messed up, like nope
, I'm really just feeling it inmy body, and then my thought is
I don't want to.
Laura (26:04):
My thought is I'm not going to do that right now.
I'm going to do something elseright now.
Yeah, then what feeling are wefeeling that is leading to that
thought?
Right, sometimes I think it canbe boredom, sometimes it can be
disappointment.
Yeah, if we feel over I keepusing the word overwhelmed I
(26:32):
think overwhelm is a real driverof procrastination is too,
because it's like I have so much.
It's a freeze response.
So when we go back to our stressresponses.
We have fight, flight, freeze.
Overwhelm creates a freezeresponse a lot of the time, and
so we just don't do anything.
Michaela (26:46):
Right, we have so much on our, and so we just don't do
anything Right.
Laura (26:48):
We have so much on our plate, and so we just do nothing
instead.
Michaela (26:51):
Right.
I also think about denial likeoh, this isn't working.
Oh, that's not for me, right?
This isn't going to work, so Ican't.
Laura (27:02):
I might as well not do it, yeah, or something bad is
going to happen to me anyway.
So I might as well just skipthis, Like I might not.
I might as well not even trybecause I can't lose weight
anyway.
Or I might as well not even trybecause you know I'm not going
to be able to stick to it.
Michaela (27:18):
So those thoughts of self-defeating, you know those
self-fulfilling prophecies,really really Well and I think,
like going back to what youryour example about the
dishwashing, and like playing onCandy Crush and, um, you know,
watching the Tik TOK, right?
I think that there is so muchmore accessibility for those
(27:40):
types of distractions that wecan procrastinate a lot easier,
because we have a lot of thingsthat we can do instead that give
us a lot more dopamine.
Laura (27:50):
It's so easy to distract and procrastinate I have to
call the car dealership thatI've been procrastinating this
all day.
I'm not going to get it donetoday, because by the time we're
done with this it's going to beclosed, and so I missed my
window.
(28:15):
But I've been procrastinatingcontacting the car dealership
because I have a light on orwhatever, and I need to figure
out what's going on.
But in my head I'm like well,I'm just going to have to call
them, and then it's going totake a long time, and then I'm
going to have to switch out mycar, and then I'm going to have
to like I'm not going to be ableto.
You know, maybe it's going totake a week or whatever, right?
Or I'm not going to be able toget a loaner car or all these
(28:35):
scenarios, these like negative,worst case scenarios, are
swimming around in my head,right?
So instead I don't call them atall, and I literally had this
conversation with myself today.
I'm like so is not calling themhelping speed up this process
that I was just worried is going?
No, it isn't, it sure isn't.
So I'm like I might as wellcall them, get the process
(28:58):
started and then, once theprocess is rolling.
Michaela (29:02):
It'll take as long as it takes and he talks a lot
about, like this ant therapy,right, and it's like the first
question is can I know that thisis true?
Can I know that it's gonna takea hundred years?
Can I know that something badis gonna happen?
(29:24):
No, can't a hundred percentknow that that thing is gonna
happen and doesn't make it feelgood.
So, the cognitive behavioraltherapy, let's swap it out for a
different thought.
Let's just like what you did.
You're like no, this isn'thelping me call.
Laura (29:41):
Right, this isn't helping me and I also.
I often play the worst casescenario game, like with my
clients and with my friends andwith my family, like, okay,
let's do it.
What's the worst case scenario?
Um, I have to take my car inand they don't have a loaner car
and I have to ask someone to,like, pick me up, or I have to
(30:03):
take an Uber, or you know what Imean.
Like these are not that bad ofproblems.
Like this isn't.
This worst case scenario is notthe end of the world.
I need to just get it done.
Michaela (30:16):
Yeah, no, the actual worst case scenario is not the
end of the world.
I need to just get it done.
Yeah, I know the actual worstcase scenario is your engine
blows up.
Laura (30:27):
That's the worst case scenario.
If I keep procrastinating, I'mtrying to make a case for I'm
trying to make a case foractually doing the task.
That I'm that I'm avoiding.
If I was going to make a casefor not doing the task, that
would certainly be my worst casescenario is that my engine
blows up and then then I'mreally out of my car and it's
really going to take a long time, and then I have a lot bigger
problems and it's going to costmore money.
Michaela (30:47):
So I'm like, oh, that's way worse than calling.
Laura (30:51):
That is way worse than calling.
You're absolutely right, sothat is my plan.
I will be calling them tomorrowas first thing in the morning.
I'll be taking care of business.
Michaela (31:02):
I love that for you.
I also feel like I put a lot ofthat on Phil, like I don't have
to do a lot of that stuff Likehe's.
He's like oh, the engine lookslike it's getting a little hot.
I can see that there'ssomething really like.
There's no check engine light,nothing's happening.
He's already figured out thatthe engine looks like it's
getting a little hot, so he'snot a procrastinator, he's like
(31:25):
a notice it and take care of itlike a hyper-focused kind of
person.
Right, that's fantastic, greatfor some people right.
Laura (31:33):
Yeah, I think that's awesome.
You have that balance at home.
My son, one of my kids, is anotice it and take care of it,
and then my other two kids aremajor procrastinators and so I
don't know how my notice it andtake care of it son got his way,
but he has figured out life andit is remarkable.
(31:55):
And then I've I'm over herelike I guess I should do the
dishes today and, you know, makesure that my kitchen's clean
before I go to bed.
I think, um, one of the thingsthat motivates me is actually
teaching my kids to notice itand take care of it, because I
do admire that quality in people.
I know I do too.
Michaela (32:14):
I do admire that quality in people I know I do
too.
Laura (32:16):
So that's a way to get more motivation too.
It's like I'm going to assignthat as my purpose.
I'm going to be more of anotice it and take care of it
person, because that's part ofmy values.
I value that, that quality, Ivalue that in an individual and
that makes me feel proud.
That makes me feel right.
So now I'm going to seek outall the positive feelings that I
(32:38):
get from doing the thing thatI'm not getting by avoiding the
thing Right, because the senseof relief from getting it done
before your engine blows up isnot quite the same as the sense
of pride of getting it doneright when you noticed it and
took care of it, and that's achange for you and that feels
better.
So we can notice that when I dothis I feel better and it's
(33:04):
much better than the possibilityof feeling bad.
So I avoid it forever and byavoiding it I'm really just
holding on to that underlyingfeeling of bad.
I'm just holding it kind ofclose to me.
You know, what we resistpersists, right.
Michaela (33:23):
Yeah, I think that that's really important and I
think that you know, anotherthing that I think of is like
doing more mindfulness.
I'm part of the strategies tohelping us be more connected
with the present, with ourbodies, and, and I think that if
(33:43):
we can be more present, I thinkthat that that helps to connect
areas of the brain that aretied to procrastination.
Right, Like, I think if we can,if it can help, it will help
with connecting that frontallobe with the rest of the brain.
That's, you know, it's it'skind of connecting things and
helping you have that goodexecutive function skill because
(34:07):
you're living in the presentmoment versus thinking that's
for future me's problem, that'snot present me's problem, that's
future me's problem.
But if you're in the presentmoment and you just take care
you can, I think you're going tobe more likely to just take
care of things and notprocrastinate them and try to
distract.
Laura (34:28):
And you're going to recognize your capabilities and
capacity in the present moment.
Right, Because when you'rethinking about future me's
problem, you're not recognizingthat present.
You can do it right now andpresent day.
You is going to be able to getit done and it's only going to
take a couple minutes.
So that mindfulness strategy isa really good one.
Another strategy that I use isoften just like okay, I'm going
(34:50):
to do this for three minutes,yes, I'm just.
I'm just going to do this forthree minutes and see how far I
get, and then if after threeminutes or five minutes or 10
minutes however good you get atthis game but I'm just going to
do this for a short period oftime and then I can take a break
, and then if my three minutesin I'm on a roll, well, I'm just
(35:13):
going to finish it, Otherwise Ican take a break and then I can
come back to it, and so timeboxing your activities can be a
really good strategy to help getthings done right away.
Michaela (35:23):
Yes, I love that.
And then I think to like, um,breaking it down into smaller
chunks?
Right, you don't have to.
I talk about cleaning our roomand there's a basket of laundry
and there's, you know, just likestuff everywhere.
You've now created a pile andyou have all this stuff
everywhere.
(35:43):
Right, it feels overwhelming toeven think about looking at
that, much less trying to figureout where things go right.
But that's not today's.
You don't have to solve all ofthe problems today.
But you, you know, if you'rejust like time boxing, you're
like 10 minutes, I'm going towork on that.
I'm going to just chunk it down.
I'm going to just going to tryto get the laundry taken care of
.
I'm just going to put that away, and I'll feel really good
(36:05):
about myself if I just can putthat, that piece away, you know,
and start chunking it down sothat you're not having to unpack
every single box.
If you just moved, right, youdon't have to unpack every
single box today.
Laura (36:22):
You know you can do it over a little bit over time.
That's very helpful advicebecause I am staring at boxes
and it is very distressingbecause I'm like I need to get
rid of all these boxes.
So I thought to myself I'mgoing to unpack one box per day,
or per weekend day, I mean, youknow I don't always do it
during the week, but like onebox per day off work I'm going
to unpack and that's it, andit'll take as long as it takes.
(36:43):
And if that means it takes, youknow, 10 weeks to get this done
, then it takes 10 weeks to getthis done.
But the reality is most of thetime, once I get that one box
unpacked, I'm like, oh well,that wasn't so bad, let me go
ahead and unpack another one,and so in one day I might get
three or four boxes unpacked,and so now I'm down to just a
handful left and so you canstart to see that progress.
(37:05):
The other another strategy thatcan be helpful is social
engagement.
So have a friend who's going tolike, cheer you on and like
when I first started unpacking,I would text my mom and I would
text my boyfriend, or I wouldtext my friends and I'd be like
I just unpacked six boxes inlike 13 minutes, you know, and
(37:27):
then they're just like cool,right, like thumbs up, but it's
like it makes me feel good tolike share that.
It's documented.
I did that thing.
And so if you have like closefriends where you've got your
group chat or whatever and youknow that people are going to be
excited for you, you can likeput that out there and just like
say I just did all of mylaundry that has been sitting
there for six weeks.
(37:48):
Or you know I just reorganizedall the shoes in my closet.
Or you know I just donated, youknow, 10 pairs of shoes to like
the local shelter or whateverLike you can like socially
engage in a way that you feelseen and validated.
And then people are like, oh wow, that's awesome Because, like,
(38:09):
everybody's going to be excitedabout that, you know, and even
though it seems kind of silly,that you know, and even though
it seems kind of silly, it's notsilly.
Michaela (38:21):
I think that's great.
I also think, like how can webecome more tolerant of our
negative emotions, like if weknow that charting makes us feel
stressed because it's boringand not fun or like whatever,
how do we become more tolerantof those negative emotions
surrounding that thing, thattask?
Laura (38:41):
The first thing I thought of was put on music
while you do it, because it'slike dual attention.
So in EMDR we use dualattention to kind of maintain
one foot in the present and onefoot in the past.
And the past that we'rereferring to in EMDR is like
trauma work, like a negative ordistressing memory or event.
Well, you can add dualattention in real time when
(39:02):
you're doing a negative ordistressing event, like charting
or dishes, putting on music,adding something to your brain,
that's putting that foot in thepresent of like the fun stuff,
in the present of like the funstuff.
So you're adding a layer of.
It's like putting on gloves.
When you're dealing withsomething hot, like I'm not
going to directly touch the hotthing, I'm going to add this,
(39:25):
this glove, so that it protectsmy hands.
The music is like protectingyour psyche from having to like
fully engross yourself in thisdistressing task or event.
Michaela (39:35):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
That's why I listen to podcastsor read books.
Listen to books while I cleanmy house.
Laura (39:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
Another thing when I'm doingsomething that I don't want to
do, like unpacking or cleaningor putting together furniture,
I'll like call a friend and justchat with them while I'm doing
it, and it helps to just havesomeone with you.
Yeah, someone is there with youin that moment that you're
doing something.
That is unpleasant and that'swhy, like, the social engagement
(40:04):
piece is big.
Michaela (40:06):
Well, and that's kind of what I told, what I tell some
of my clients, when we'retalking about school, I'm like
you need to find a best friendat school, Like you need to find
your school friend who's inyour class and then you do
school together.
Right, Even if you're sittingthere doing your stuff on your
own, you're doing it with thatperson.
They're helping keep you ontask.
They're like oh, did youremember?
You have this paper due, right?
(40:27):
You kind of like help eachother with remembering things,
but also like you're not feelingalone in that when it's really
hard.
Laura (40:37):
Yeah, a well-regulated nervous system is a socially
engaged nervous system.
So we can't be in defense modewhile we're in social engagement
mode.
We can't be in both at the sametime, and so what wires
together fires together.
If I'm socially engaged in apleasant way, then my defense
system is not online.
It's not defending againstdanger, because I'm socially
(40:58):
engaged and I'm not in anydanger.
I'm in this like safe spacewith my friend, and so the same
is true, for if you are, youknow alone all the time what
wires together fires together.
If you're alone all the timeand you're not socially engaged
and you're trying to doeverything all by yourself, like
your social engagement systembeing offline makes way for your
defense system to be onlinemore frequently, so that
(41:20):
isolation can kind of trick youinto feeling like you have to be
defending against thesenegative emotions all the time.
Michaela (41:28):
Sure yeah, and that's probably why, since COVID, we're
seeing more problems with youknow this because people are
doing more remote work.
Laura (41:38):
And when we're doing remote, like even this recording
remotely.
You know, our engagement systemis lit up differently when
we're on a screen than whenwe're in person, and so we're
still engaged and we're stillgetting that access, but we're
not quite getting the sameamount of social engagement as
we are if we're in person.
And if we're actually embodyingour experience together, Like
(42:00):
if we're sitting at the tablewe're both sitting across the
table from each other and we'rein the, embodying the same space
and experiencing the same spacethen our engagement system is
lit up even more than it wouldbe than when we're here online.
Michaela (42:14):
Sure, that makes sense .
Laura (42:16):
Yeah, can we think of any other strategies that help
us get things done right away,anything that we missed so far?
Michaela (42:26):
The other thing that I think about, too, is like doing
the heart rate variabilitytraining that I just started
doing and so in that, like it'sthrough HeartMath and I'm
waiting for my certificationstill but they talk about like
some of the strategies that theyuse actually will help with
(42:48):
regulating your nervous systemand actually moving you into
coherence and actually takingyou.
Like you, moving you intocoherence and actually taking
you like you, you literally lookat where you're at on a stress
state, right, if we're, whatemotion are you having?
Is it like you know, highsympathetic or or, um, you know,
more parasympathetic, um, is itmore stress or cortisol?
(43:12):
Is it more like DHEA, like?
So you're kind of like lookingat where you're at in that and
trying to figure out where youwant to go and you're picking
what emotional state you want tobe in some of their strategies
and so so you're working onadopting a different emotional
state from where you are.
That's really cool.
So that's another thing that youknow we can you can do to work
(43:33):
on is like work on that heartrate variability and that's
basically you know we can youcan do to work on is like work
on that heart rate variabilityand that's basically.
You know your heart ratevariability is like where you
are at the highest point andwhere you are at the lowest
point, and so you do a lot oftrauma work.
Someone who's in a verytraumatic trauma, in four state
they're going to have a verylittle heart rate variability.
Someone who's having like veryanxious distress, they might
(43:55):
have too much heart rate or it'sall over the place, right, and
so we're looking at that highestheart rate to the lowest heart
rate and and you can kind ofregulate that.
Your heart is sending alsosending messages to the brain
through the vagus nerve and youcan.
Your body is telling your brainhow you're feeling.
Yeah, you can create, you cande-stress your body.
(44:17):
Then you can de-stress yourbrain.
Laura (44:20):
I love that.
So breathing techniques andheart rate techniques can be
really helpful in calming yourmind, and then you can get to a
regulated state, and then youcan recognize that you have the
capacity to tolerate thisdistress and then you don't have
to avoid it anymore.
Yes, I love that.
Michaela (44:38):
Maybe you can do a demo.
Yeah, I would love that Allright, let's do it.
Laura (44:46):
Oh, right now.
No, oh, okay.
No, not right now.
Okay, we'll do it the next timein real life.
Oh yeah, I will do that, allright.
Well, I think that's a goodplace to leave it today.
Thank you so much for listeningto.
Why Am I Like this?
If you like our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
your favorite podcast platform.
Follow the show and share itwith your friends.
(45:07):
This episode was written andproduced by me, laura Wood and
Michelle Bieber.
Our theme song is Making EndsMeet by Thick and Thieves, and a
special thanks to Ben of ErieCounseling and Coaching and
Active Healing PsychiatricServices for sponsoring this
show.
Hello and welcome to.
Why Am I Like this?
The podcast for those whodidn't get enough hugs as a
child?
I'm Laura Wood and I'm a traumatherapist.
Michaela (00:10):
Hi and I'm M Beaver.
I'm a psychiatric nursepractitioner.
Laura (00:14):
So, M, why are we doing this podcast?
Michaela (00:18):
I'm so glad you asked.
We want to help you understandyourself a bit better, how the
things you learned aboutyourself and the world and
childhood are still affectingyou today.
We want to know why are we likethis, those random things about
ourselves that we might wonderabout, like why am I so jumpy?
Why am I so anxious?
Why do I take everythingpersonally?
Why are my thoughts so negative?
(00:39):
Why do I feel like I have tofix everything all the time?
Laura (00:45):
Yeah, and today we're talking about procrastination.
So we're going to try to answerthe following questions what is
procrastination, what causesprocrastination and what
strategies can help me getthings done right away?
So let's get into it.
What's procrastination?
Michaela (01:06):
Okay, so I think that procrastination is putting off
tasks even though it could causeproblems for you or other
people.
Laura (01:15):
Okay, which is kind of reminds me I just this occurred
to me right now that addictionis doing a task, even though it
can cause problems for yourselfand for other people.
So I wonder if that's the samemechanism.
But we can get more into thatlater.
I think procrastination is toput off till tomorrow and to do
(01:40):
something against our betterjudgment.
Michaela (01:42):
Okay.
Laura (01:43):
Yeah, those are sort of the words that created the word
procrastination, so I think youknow.
For me, though, procrastinationis an avoidance strategy.
That's what I think ofeverything.
It's a it's a strategy to copewith dysregulation or potential
dysregulation.
So what I mean by that is weput something off in order to
(02:08):
avoid a certain feeling, and soif we're trying to avoid the
feeling of being disappointed,or the feeling of being
overwhelmed, or the feeling oftrying to of being sad, or bad
experiences, we're just puttingit off, putting it off, putting
it off, putting it off, and Ithink a lot of the time, that's
subconscious.
Michaela (02:30):
Yeah, I could see that .
I don't know.
I think that sometimes we don'treally even understand why we
don't want to do the thing thatwe don't want to do, or maybe
it's just that, like, it's justdoesn't seem like fun and I'd
rather be doing something that Ido want to do, I want to be
having fun and enjoying things,and that doesn't sound like fun.
Laura (02:50):
Yeah, I think that's a big one too is we want to do
enjoyable things.
We don't want to do things thatare not enjoyable.
We want to do things that makeus feel productive and fulfilled
.
So like, for example, I'llprocrastinate unloading the
dishwasher because when I unloadthe dishwasher I'm just taking
it from one place to another andmy kitchen looks the same, so
I'm not getting anything out ofit.
Michaela (03:12):
Sure, I don't unload the dishwasher because I'm
distracted by a hundred things.
Laura (03:19):
That's another reason.
So just a general lack oforganization, distractibility, a
general lack of structure androutine, like those things can
make us procrastinate too.
But in general we're justputting something off.
We're just simply saying likeI'm not motivated to do this
right now, like lowself-efficacy rating at that
(03:43):
moment, like I think, oh, I justI can't do it, it's too hard,
so I'm going to put it off.
Or I'm afraid of what otherpeople might think of me.
Sometimes, like a fear ofjudgment is a reason to
procrastinate dealing withsomething Maybe.
That's I don't want tocommunicate with someone, or I
don't want to, you know, go toclass because I didn't submit my
(04:04):
paper and the teacher is goingto judge me, or I'm going to
look stupid in front of myclassmates, so I'm going to
avoid it, I'm going toprocrastinate like even going
and dealing with it at all.
Michaela (04:15):
Sure, I think that this is a really interesting
conversation and it's notsomething that I actually really
considered.
I kind of always havecategorized it oh, we are a
procrastinator, like it's eitheranxiety or it's like, you know,
it's tied to like ADHD orsomething.
But I think that this goesreally way deeper and so I think
(04:39):
about like an experience that Ihad with my kiddo the other
night and he was doing thisextra credit homework assignment
and we're like making it fun,making it enjoyable, but the
minute that he wrote one answerwrong, he was done.
And I know that this isn't likeprocrastination, but I think
that this is a driving force forwhat.
What drives procrastination isthat we want to avoid that
(05:02):
feeling I'm going to make amistake, I'm not good enough,
I'm not, I'm not going to do it,right, right.
And then it's like, oh, I can'tdo that anymore because I I'm
not good enough.
Laura (05:14):
Yeah, I think when we notice that we're avoiding
something, we might think toourselves.
We can kind of identify whywe're avoiding it by thinking to
ourselves what does this sayabout me?
So there's something that I'mavoiding, maybe, and I'm
(05:35):
procrastinating it because Idon't want to be a failure, like
I'm not good enough to get thisdone, I'm irresponsible for
having waited so long, or anyother of these negative
cognitions, and then we kind ofloop in them, and so
procrastination is reallyconnected to rumination, which
can be connected to depressionand which can be connected with
low motivation.
So it's sort of this cycle oflike rumination, negative
(05:58):
thoughts, like depression, andnot really being motivated to
get out of it.
Michaela (06:03):
Well, and I was reading something that kind of
talked about like the stressresponse system and how this is
highly correlated withprocrastination, and so it's
kind of one of those things thatit's twofold so stress can
cause or lead to higher rates ofprocrastination and
procrastination is going toinevitably create more stress.
(06:27):
Because we have, like it's likethis subconscious like thing.
Even if we're not thinkingabout it, we have this list of
things in our head that we knowthat we need to do or that are
left undone.
And as that list grows andgrows and grows, we, we kind of
feel that and we feel morestressed, even if we're not
thinking about all of thosethings.
We just know that there's allthis stuff to do and it gets.
(06:49):
It just makes us feeloverwhelmed and stressed and we
don't know what, we don't knowwhere to start and we don't know
how to get move forward withthat.
Laura (06:57):
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think we are going to getmore stressed and we don't know
how to cope with our stress, andso we're overwhelmed and so we
don't deal with it at all and wetotally avoid it.
And then we get more stressedand then we don't know how to
cope, and then we getoverwhelmed and then we don't
know.
So it's this cycle.
I think, about the overwhelmedfeeling all the time of like I
(07:21):
have too much on my plate.
I have to put this off, like Ihave to prioritize different
things.
I was reading an article whereI felt really called out because
it was talking about how peoplesome procrastinators believe
that they like thrive underpressure, but that's not really
the case at all.
It turns out that you're justoverly stressed out, you're
(07:42):
doing probably not as good of ajob when you do it at the end,
and then you're actually likeseeking out this, like reward
response of, like feeling likeyou've beat the odds.
Michaela (07:53):
Yeah, but why do people who procrastinate it's
like they need that that timecrunch to perform?
It's like I can't do it untilit's five hours before it's due.
Laura (08:08):
I think it's that lack of intrinsic motivation.
I think sometimes it's havingthe.
The motivation is that reward,the response that I'm getting
when I finally get it done and Idid it in a short amount of
time.
And now that dopamine hit islike oh, I did this like and I
did it in a short amount of time.
And now that dopamine hit islike, oh, I did this like and I
did it quickly and I still wassuccessful or whatever.
(08:31):
I think also perfectionistictendencies make us put stuff off
right, because if we have, andif we have five hours to get
something done, well, when it'sdone, it's done.
There's no like tweaking it ortinkering with it or finishing,
you know, redoing it, redoing it, redoing it.
(08:51):
Whereas like, if I have fivedays to get it done, I can get
part of it done and then rethinkit and then want to start over
and then start over, and youknow what I mean.
I can kind of get stuck in thiscycle of like perfectionism
where it's not done, it's it hasto be perfect, whereas if I
only have five hours, likedone's done, it's good enough.
Michaela (09:11):
Right.
Laura (09:12):
And so it helps me avoid that sense of like I could have
done a better job.
Michaela (09:17):
That makes sense and that sounds overwhelming to be
worrying about it for five days.
But I'd also think that, like,by not doing it, you're still
worrying about it for those fivedays.
You're just not having to startit over and over and over again
.
Laura (09:31):
Yeah, I think that's a fair argument there's no win in
that scenario Right.
Either way.
It's on your mind, it's on yourbody, it's creating.
You still are experiencing thatstress response because you're
overwhelmed by it.
And so the procrastination is aresponse to that stress and
overwhelm of feeling like I'mnot going to be able to do this
well, or I don't know what I'mdoing, or I'm going to fail at
(09:53):
this.
And if I think I'm going tofail, then I'm going to put it
off and I'm going to dosomething.
I'm going to focus my mind onother things that don't make me
feel like that.
Michaela (10:09):
Yeah, when I think that you know, from a top-down
approach, thinking about likethese negative cognitions and
like these maladaptive thoughtsand things like that, like if we
have a lot of them, then we'regoing to be more likely to
procrastinate, right?
But people who had a lot, whohave better like internal, like
(10:29):
control of being like oh, Iworked really hard, and because
I worked really hard, they havethese like positive cognitions
surrounding it, right, likesurrounding it, like they're
thinking like oh, I workedreally hard and that's what's
leading to me getting a goodgrade, and the people who have a
lot more of those positivethoughts surrounding the work
(10:50):
that they're doing, focusing inon, like how, like their
internal control, I think thatthey have less procrastination.
And it was interesting.
I don't remember what thisstudy was or like.
I think it was just like aconversation that I had with my
brother about this, and so hewas something he read and he was
saying that like there was thisstudy that was done with with
(11:10):
kids and the kids got feedbackfrom the teachers and was like,
oh, you're so smart, good job,you're so smart.
And then, as the content gotharder and harder, the kids that
that they told you you're sosmart, they felt like they were
dumb, and so then they did worseon things, right?
But the kids that said theysaid and said oh, you're such a
(11:32):
hard worker, hey, you're doingsuch a great job.
You're such a hard worker,right?
And those kids who heard yourhard work was what made you do
well, internalize that insteadof I'm smart, and when it got
harder, they worked harder, andso then, instead of I'm smart,
and when it got harder, theyworked harder, and so then they
didn't shut down and then theydid better.
Laura (11:51):
That's very interesting.
That's an example of, ratherthan negative self-talk.
It's positive or neutralself-talk.
Sometimes our self-talk is goodenough at neutral.
It doesn't have to be amazing,right.
You don't have to be like, oh,I'm the hardest worker in the
whole world.
I can just be like, oh, I workhard, that's a positive, that's
(12:11):
a good thing, that's a strongthing.
Like, I can do it, I can dohard things, I can work through
this, I can figure it out, I'mcapable.
Those are some neutral soundingself-talk.
You know options that we canuse.
I think one of the things thatcan go against the negative
self-talk is alsoself-compassion too.
You know having compassion foryourself and recognizing that
(12:35):
you don't have to be stressedout all the time.
You deserve to put this task,you know, to bed and be done
with it and you know moveforward from it.
And you know you don't have towait until the last second.
You can tolerate negativeemotions.
You don't have to avoidnegative emotions.
Sometimes the negative emotionisn't as bad as you think it
(12:58):
will be.
Sure, I think.
A lot of the time we think thatthis negative emotion is going
to be like the worst thing ever,and so we put it off and put it
off, and put it off, but whatwe're really doing is we're
engaging with it and we'rekeeping it on our plates longer
and so, by quote unquote, notdealing with it, we're really
just experiencing it a lot more.
Michaela (13:19):
Right, well, and I just wonder, like I'm guessing
that some people are kind ofborn with some of these traits,
right, and sometimes I thinkthat, like there, it's like that
what wires together, firestogether, thing, like how much
of this is getting created in usas children, like this is what
(13:39):
we learn, and the more that westrengthen those, that network
right, the more we strengthenthat network, the more that
that's what fires, I think.
And so, like, as we, as we tryto, you know, learn from this, I
think we know that we're goingto experience some discomfort as
(14:01):
we try to push through engagingwith these things, but the more
that we strengthen thatconnection, the easier that that
becomes as well.
And so, whatever we, whateverstrategy we use I think that
there's, you know, we canstrengthen that by just working
through it and creating adifferent pattern.
Laura (14:22):
Yeah, we can rewire, and that takes a lot of energy and
effort and intention.
So when we think aboutautopilot, that's our history,
autopilot is our history, that'sour automatic wiring, that's
what we've been, you know,that's what we've created
throughout our lifetime.
Michaela (14:40):
Yeah, rewire, that is hard work but it sounds like it
could be worth it.
Not be able to put that off,right?
I know I think back to you knowwriting papers in college that
was like my oh the worst.
I hate writing papers, but youknow when you put it off to the
(15:04):
last minute it doesn't feel verygood Cause you know that you're
not doing your best.
Laura (15:07):
Put it off to the last minute, it doesn't feel very
good because you know thatyou're not doing your best, yeah
, and studies show that peoplewho procrastinate, don't do like
, tend to not do as well inschool.
They tend not to do well aswell at work.
They tend not to have as muchfulfillment in their lives.
You know, internal motivation,intrinsic motivation, comes from
purpose, autonomy and mastery.
We have to be able to assignourselves the purpose of I can
(15:31):
do this, I'm capable, I'm goingto get this done.
I have these goals, I'mimportant enough to do this
thing.
This goal is important enoughfor me to reach right.
I think we have to have thatsense of ourself, enough to
decide that it matters enough todo this thing, especially when
(15:55):
we procrastinate about ourhealth.
Michaela (15:59):
Yeah, it can definitely be detrimental to our
health.
I'm glad that you brought thatup.
I was thinking about this, youknow, and there are physical
consequences to procrastination,right.
So one we have high stress andwhat we know is that, being in a
(16:19):
state of fight or flight orhigh stress, you have extra
cortisol hanging around.
You know we're going to havenatural consequences of that,
which leads to glucosemetabolism issues, right.
So, leading to diabetes andheart disease, high blood
(16:39):
pressure, right.
So we have hormonedysregulation.
You know there's a lot ofdifferent factors that kind of
go down that pathway that arecontributing factors.
Then we have less adaptivecoping strategies because we're,
you know, not dealing with thethings.
We have poor health behaviors,right.
So we're probably notexercising, we're probably not
(17:01):
taking care of our bodies, we'reprobably putting off going to
the doctor, right.
We don't probably have as goodof quality of sleep, right.
We have all these things on ourmind.
We're probably like, oh man, Iforgot to do that.
Oh, I forgot to do that.
You know, at the end of the daywe're kind of mulling over what
we didn't do, and so thenthere's greater consequences for
(17:21):
physical illness, and I thinkyou know that's.
Those are kind of some of theconsequences that I think of
when I think about this highlevel of stress from
procrastination.
Laura (17:35):
Yeah, and the insomnia from it, the rumination that
you're thinking about all night,like you said, like I've got
all these things that I didn'tdo, that I didn't take care of,
and that's increasing yourstress level and decreasing your
immune function.
It's decreasing your ability tofight infection and to process
your food and to do all of thethings.
(17:55):
So it can lead togastrointestinal distress and
can lead to, you know, gettingsick more often because you're
tired and you're run down andyou're feeling overwhelmed all
the time.
You can relate to some of thosefeelings.
You know, I think, I think Iprobably can, definitely.
Michaela (18:14):
And yet we?
We may know all of these things, and yet we still manage to
avoid things.
Laura (18:25):
I know, isn't that funny .
We're doing all these thingseven though we know it's not
good for us, we know it'sagainst our better judgment and
it's not in our best interest,but we're doing it anyway.
What is our addiction toavoidance?
Michaela (18:36):
Well, and I think that you know it's probably very
depleting of our energy too.
So I think about like, um, oh,I'm just going to throw the cup
in the sink or I'm just going to, I'm not even going to move the
cup, I'm just going to leavethe cup on the table, Right, and
I'm not going to, I'm going toignore it.
I'm not, I'm just going to look.
I can like almost see throughit, Like it's not even there,
(18:57):
Right.
I walked past it a hundredtimes, even on my way to the
kitchen.
I couldn't grab it Right.
And then all of a sudden, now,instead of just having one thing
to do, you have 50 things to do, and so then you're stressed
and you're trying to get allthese things done, and it would
have taken two seconds to do.
But if you just did the onething right away but yeah, we
can't get ourselves to justthink, oh, I should just do it
(19:20):
right now It'll be really easy.
We think, oh, I don't have time, Like, oh, I don't have time,
and it's that thought processthat leads us to ignoring things
.
Instead, if we just you know, Inoticed that that top-down
approach.
Maybe we have to do some bodyup stuff first.
But that top-down thinking, youknow, using our brain to tell
(19:41):
ourselves it'll take two seconds, it's not that hard, versus
being like oh, I'll get it later.
Laura (19:48):
Absolutely, as you were describing that.
I was thinking about how thisis very cognitive behavioral.
This is very cognitivebehavioral and this bottom up
version of that is to take asecond to get regulated.
Take a second to use agrounding skill, get present,
then you can change your thought, so you can change your state
(20:11):
of regulation, and then, with anew state of regulation, you can
change your thought and with anew thought, you can change your
behavior.
And that's what we can see.
Like I have a personal exampleof this.
I'm not a super tidy person.
I'm like I'll leave my dishesin the sink, like I'll do it
tomorrow morning or whatever.
Like I don't have a problemgoing to bed with a sink full of
(20:32):
dirty dishes.
Like people are like I can'ttolerate that.
Like I don't really care.
So this bothers me, right?
I'm a world-classprocrastinator.
I don't want to be aprocrastinator.
I just moved into a smallerhouse so I downsized, so a dirty
kitchen looks a lot worse inthis house than it did in my
other house.
I had a big kitchen.
(20:52):
So I'm like okay, I'm going todo better and I'm going to teach
my kids to do better and we'regoing to do things right away.
So yesterday it's like 10o'clock at night and I'm wanting
to go, I'm like yawning and I'mready to go to bed, and I look
at the sink and I'm just likeI'm not going to do these dishes
, like I don't want to do thesedishes, I can just leave it.
(21:13):
I'll do it tomorrow, it's fine.
And then I was like you knowwhat?
No, because I saw this TikTokone time and it was like, before
you go to bed, you know, putall the dishes in the dishwasher
and run it and, you know, wipedown the counters.
And it was just like thesebasic human behaviors that
everybody needs to do in orderto keep a clean house.
(21:33):
And so I thought of that videoand it like gave me the
cognition that I needed to justbe like, okay, I'm just going to
do it.
Guess how long it took me Likeone minute, literally like one
minute.
It was so not a big deal.
There was like 10 dishes fromdinner or whatever.
I cleaned them, I put them inthe dishwasher, I ran the
dishwasher.
So now today we'll have a cleansink with clean dishes and no
(21:55):
worries, and I could wipe downthe counter and I did all the
things and it took me like maybethree minutes tops to do the
whole thing, because I had tounload the dishwasher to get the
dishes in the dishwasher in thefirst place, right, and so
that's been my new thing.
Where this is, my rewiring isevery night I'm making sure that
the dishwasher is unloaded andI can load the dishes from that
day, right, and this seems likesuch a small thing, but for me,
(22:22):
who is notoriously just not likea Johnny on the spot get this
done right now kind of person,this was like represented the
gigantic change in mypersonality and I had to really
stop myself and regulate andthink about it, and I probably
took a break before I even Iprobably like was thinking, oh,
(22:43):
I'm tired, well, I don't want todo these dishes, but I also
know that I have to do thesedishes before I go to bed.
So let me go, like watch a show, or let me read this last
article, or let me play anotherround of Candy Crush.
So I probably did procrastinate, but only for a couple minutes
instead of for the whole entireday, and then not did it until
today, after I work all day longand then I have to what clean
(23:05):
the dishes before I make newdirty dishes.
Why would I want to do that?
Don't.
Michaela (23:10):
And it's annoying.
I don't know about you, but Idon't have enough knives or
something, or forks.
I have to run my dishwasherevery night because otherwise
there's nothing.
Laura (23:19):
Yeah, we run out of spoons.
Michaela (23:20):
Yeah, I don't know what's wrong with us.
Well, I kind of wonder if mythree-year-old's throwing them
in the garbage on accident orlike you know.
So that's a thing, but anyways,um no, I think that, right,
I've seen it happen.
Um so, but this is how I feltabout like the cleaning of my
house.
You know, there's like thisthought like, oh, I just don't
(23:41):
ever have time, Like I justdon't, I don't ever have time,
Like I just feel like I cannever get it done Right.
And my mom's like, oh, justevery Sunday I do, I do this.
And I'm like, oh, that seemspretty easy.
And now for probably two yearsI've been every Sunday, I do the
things that I do, and I alwayshave a clean floor.
(24:04):
I always have, you know, the,the, the bathrooms are always
clean every single week.
And it's like, oh, I justneeded to like have a routine.
I had to create structure intomy day so that I knew this is
what I needed to do and when Ineeded to do it.
And then it becomes so mucheasier and then, if you, then
(24:25):
you just have to stick to itlong enough that you just keep
sticking to it and it doesn'tseem like it's that chaotic
anymore.
Laura (24:33):
And the other thing with that is when you've stuck to it
and you know that you canreturn to it, and you know how
quick and easy it is to get itdone, you don't have to beat
yourself up about skipping it,right?
So I think that's another thingthat happens is when we are,
let's say, I'm telling myselfI'm going to exercise every day
(24:53):
and then one day I don'texercise.
That can throw me off my wholeentire thing and I might not
exercise again for weeks becauseI thought, oh well, I didn't
exercise that day, so I'm afailure.
I didn't, I'm not good at it,like I didn't do the right thing
or whatever.
I think that language, thatthought process of like I missed
(25:16):
one day of this routine and sonow my whole thing is thrown off
and I no longer am on track.
But that's not true.
If you skip a Sunday or you'reout of town, just do it the next
week, right, and you can getright back on track.
Michaela (25:26):
You can.
I love that.
Well, and I think that too it'simportant to know, cause some
people might be thinking, well,I don't have that thought, Like
I don't know, like I juststopped, I just stopped doing it
, and it's like, well, sometimesthese things may not be fully
like conscious awareness, likeoh, I'm having this negative
thought because there thought,because they become so routine
(25:50):
that we really don't have thethought so much.
Sometimes it's just the feelinglike oh, I messed up, like nope
, I'm really just feeling it inmy body, and then my thought is
I don't want to.
Laura (26:04):
My thought is I'm not going to do that right now.
I'm going to do something elseright now.
Yeah, then what feeling are wefeeling that is leading to that
thought?
Right, sometimes I think it canbe boredom, sometimes it can be
disappointment.
Yeah, if we feel over I keepusing the word overwhelmed I
(26:32):
think overwhelm is a real driverof procrastination is too,
because it's like I have so much.
It's a freeze response.
So when we go back to our stressresponses.
We have fight, flight, freeze.
Overwhelm creates a freezeresponse a lot of the time, and
so we just don't do anything.
Michaela (26:46):
Right, we have so much on our, and so we just don't do
anything Right.
Laura (26:48):
We have so much on our plate, and so we just do nothing
instead.
Michaela (26:51):
Right.
I also think about denial likeoh, this isn't working.
Oh, that's not for me, right?
This isn't going to work, so Ican't.
Laura (27:02):
I might as well not do it, yeah, or something bad is
going to happen to me anyway.
So I might as well just skipthis, Like I might not.
I might as well not even trybecause I can't lose weight
anyway.
Or I might as well not even trybecause you know I'm not going
to be able to stick to it.
Michaela (27:18):
So those thoughts of self-defeating, you know those
self-fulfilling prophecies,really really Well and I think,
like going back to what youryour example about the
dishwashing, and like playing onCandy Crush and, um, you know,
watching the Tik TOK, right?
I think that there is so muchmore accessibility for those
(27:40):
types of distractions that wecan procrastinate a lot easier,
because we have a lot of thingsthat we can do instead that give
us a lot more dopamine.
Laura (27:50):
It's so easy to distract and procrastinate I have to
call the car dealership thatI've been procrastinating this
all day.
I'm not going to get it donetoday, because by the time we're
done with this it's going to beclosed, and so I missed my
window.
(28:15):
But I've been procrastinatingcontacting the car dealership
because I have a light on orwhatever, and I need to figure
out what's going on.
But in my head I'm like well,I'm just going to have to call
them, and then it's going totake a long time, and then I'm
going to have to switch out mycar, and then I'm going to have
to like I'm not going to be ableto.
You know, maybe it's going totake a week or whatever, right?
Or I'm not going to be able toget a loaner car or all these
(28:35):
scenarios, these like negative,worst case scenarios, are
swimming around in my head,right?
So instead I don't call them atall, and I literally had this
conversation with myself today.
I'm like so is not calling themhelping speed up this process
that I was just worried is going?
No, it isn't, it sure isn't.
So I'm like I might as wellcall them, get the process
(28:58):
started and then, once theprocess is rolling.
Michaela (29:02):
It'll take as long as it takes and he talks a lot
about, like this ant therapy,right, and it's like the first
question is can I know that thisis true?
Can I know that it's gonna takea hundred years?
Can I know that something badis gonna happen?
(29:24):
No, can't a hundred percentknow that that thing is gonna
happen and doesn't make it feelgood.
So, the cognitive behavioraltherapy, let's swap it out for a
different thought.
Let's just like what you did.
You're like no, this isn'thelping me call.
Laura (29:41):
Right, this isn't helping me and I also.
I often play the worst casescenario game, like with my
clients and with my friends andwith my family, like, okay,
let's do it.
What's the worst case scenario?
Um, I have to take my car inand they don't have a loaner car
and I have to ask someone to,like, pick me up, or I have to
(30:03):
take an Uber, or you know what Imean.
Like these are not that bad ofproblems.
Like this isn't.
This worst case scenario is notthe end of the world.
I need to just get it done.
Michaela (30:16):
Yeah, no, the actual worst case scenario is not the
end of the world.
I need to just get it done.
Yeah, I know the actual worstcase scenario is your engine
blows up.
Laura (30:27):
That's the worst case scenario.
If I keep procrastinating, I'mtrying to make a case for I'm
trying to make a case foractually doing the task.
That I'm that I'm avoiding.
If I was going to make a casefor not doing the task, that
would certainly be my worst casescenario is that my engine
blows up and then then I'mreally out of my car and it's
really going to take a long time, and then I have a lot bigger
problems and it's going to costmore money.
Michaela (30:47):
So I'm like, oh, that's way worse than calling.
Laura (30:51):
That is way worse than calling.
You're absolutely right, sothat is my plan.
I will be calling them tomorrowas first thing in the morning.
I'll be taking care of business.
Michaela (31:02):
I love that for you.
I also feel like I put a lot ofthat on Phil, like I don't have
to do a lot of that stuff Likehe's.
He's like oh, the engine lookslike it's getting a little hot.
I can see that there'ssomething really like.
There's no check engine light,nothing's happening.
He's already figured out thatthe engine looks like it's
getting a little hot, so he'snot a procrastinator, he's like
(31:25):
a notice it and take care of itlike a hyper-focused kind of
person.
Right, that's fantastic, greatfor some people right.
Laura (31:33):
Yeah, I think that's awesome.
You have that balance at home.
My son, one of my kids, is anotice it and take care of it,
and then my other two kids aremajor procrastinators and so I
don't know how my notice it andtake care of it son got his way,
but he has figured out life andit is remarkable.
(31:55):
And then I've I'm over herelike I guess I should do the
dishes today and, you know, makesure that my kitchen's clean
before I go to bed.
I think, um, one of the thingsthat motivates me is actually
teaching my kids to notice itand take care of it, because I
do admire that quality in people.
I know I do too.
Michaela (32:14):
I do admire that quality in people I know I do
too.
Laura (32:16):
So that's a way to get more motivation too.
It's like I'm going to assignthat as my purpose.
I'm going to be more of anotice it and take care of it
person, because that's part ofmy values.
I value that, that quality, Ivalue that in an individual and
that makes me feel proud.
That makes me feel right.
So now I'm going to seek outall the positive feelings that I
(32:38):
get from doing the thing thatI'm not getting by avoiding the
thing Right, because the senseof relief from getting it done
before your engine blows up isnot quite the same as the sense
of pride of getting it doneright when you noticed it and
took care of it, and that's achange for you and that feels
better.
So we can notice that when I dothis I feel better and it's
(33:04):
much better than the possibilityof feeling bad.
So I avoid it forever and byavoiding it I'm really just
holding on to that underlyingfeeling of bad.
I'm just holding it kind ofclose to me.
You know, what we resistpersists, right.
Michaela (33:23):
Yeah, I think that that's really important and I
think that you know, anotherthing that I think of is like
doing more mindfulness.
I'm part of the strategies tohelping us be more connected
with the present, with ourbodies, and, and I think that if
(33:43):
we can be more present, I thinkthat that that helps to connect
areas of the brain that aretied to procrastination.
Right, Like, I think if we can,if it can help, it will help
with connecting that frontallobe with the rest of the brain.
That's, you know, it's it'skind of connecting things and
helping you have that goodexecutive function skill because
(34:07):
you're living in the presentmoment versus thinking that's
for future me's problem, that'snot present me's problem, that's
future me's problem.
But if you're in the presentmoment and you just take care
you can, I think you're going tobe more likely to just take
care of things and notprocrastinate them and try to
distract.
Laura (34:28):
And you're going to recognize your capabilities and
capacity in the present moment.
Right, Because when you'rethinking about future me's
problem, you're not recognizingthat present.
You can do it right now andpresent day.
You is going to be able to getit done and it's only going to
take a couple minutes.
So that mindfulness strategy isa really good one.
Another strategy that I use isoften just like okay, I'm going
(34:50):
to do this for three minutes,yes, I'm just.
I'm just going to do this forthree minutes and see how far I
get, and then if after threeminutes or five minutes or 10
minutes however good you get atthis game but I'm just going to
do this for a short period oftime and then I can take a break
, and then if my three minutesin I'm on a roll, well, I'm just
(35:13):
going to finish it, Otherwise Ican take a break and then I can
come back to it, and so timeboxing your activities can be a
really good strategy to help getthings done right away.
Michaela (35:23):
Yes, I love that.
And then I think to like, um,breaking it down into smaller
chunks?
Right, you don't have to.
I talk about cleaning our roomand there's a basket of laundry
and there's, you know, just likestuff everywhere.
You've now created a pile andyou have all this stuff
everywhere.
(35:43):
Right, it feels overwhelming toeven think about looking at
that, much less trying to figureout where things go right.
But that's not today's.
You don't have to solve all ofthe problems today.
But you, you know, if you'rejust like time boxing, you're
like 10 minutes, I'm going towork on that.
I'm going to just chunk it down.
I'm going to just going to tryto get the laundry taken care of
.
I'm just going to put that away, and I'll feel really good
(36:05):
about myself if I just can putthat, that piece away, you know,
and start chunking it down sothat you're not having to unpack
every single box.
If you just moved, right, youdon't have to unpack every
single box today.
Laura (36:22):
You know you can do it over a little bit over time.
That's very helpful advicebecause I am staring at boxes
and it is very distressingbecause I'm like I need to get
rid of all these boxes.
So I thought to myself I'mgoing to unpack one box per day,
or per weekend day, I mean, youknow I don't always do it
during the week, but like onebox per day off work I'm going
to unpack and that's it, andit'll take as long as it takes.
(36:43):
And if that means it takes, youknow, 10 weeks to get this done
, then it takes 10 weeks to getthis done.
But the reality is most of thetime, once I get that one box
unpacked, I'm like, oh well,that wasn't so bad, let me go
ahead and unpack another one,and so in one day I might get
three or four boxes unpacked,and so now I'm down to just a
handful left and so you canstart to see that progress.
(37:05):
The other another strategy thatcan be helpful is social
engagement.
So have a friend who's going tolike, cheer you on and like
when I first started unpacking,I would text my mom and I would
text my boyfriend, or I wouldtext my friends and I'd be like
I just unpacked six boxes inlike 13 minutes, you know, and
(37:27):
then they're just like cool,right, like thumbs up, but it's
like it makes me feel good tolike share that.
It's documented.
I did that thing.
And so if you have like closefriends where you've got your
group chat or whatever and youknow that people are going to be
excited for you, you can likeput that out there and just like
say I just did all of mylaundry that has been sitting
there for six weeks.
(37:48):
Or you know I just reorganizedall the shoes in my closet.
Or you know I just donated, youknow, 10 pairs of shoes to like
the local shelter or whateverLike you can like socially
engage in a way that you feelseen and validated.
And then people are like, oh wow, that's awesome Because, like,
(38:09):
everybody's going to be excitedabout that, you know, and even
though it seems kind of silly,that you know, and even though
it seems kind of silly, it's notsilly.
Michaela (38:21):
I think that's great.
I also think, like how can webecome more tolerant of our
negative emotions, like if weknow that charting makes us feel
stressed because it's boringand not fun or like whatever,
how do we become more tolerantof those negative emotions
surrounding that thing, thattask?
Laura (38:41):
The first thing I thought of was put on music
while you do it, because it'slike dual attention.
So in EMDR we use dualattention to kind of maintain
one foot in the present and onefoot in the past.
And the past that we'rereferring to in EMDR is like
trauma work, like a negative ordistressing memory or event.
Well, you can add dualattention in real time when
(39:02):
you're doing a negative ordistressing event, like charting
or dishes, putting on music,adding something to your brain,
that's putting that foot in thepresent of like the fun stuff,
in the present of like the funstuff.
So you're adding a layer of.
It's like putting on gloves.
When you're dealing withsomething hot, like I'm not
going to directly touch the hotthing, I'm going to add this,
(39:25):
this glove, so that it protectsmy hands.
The music is like protectingyour psyche from having to like
fully engross yourself in thisdistressing task or event.
Michaela (39:35):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
That's why I listen to podcastsor read books.
Listen to books while I cleanmy house.
Laura (39:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
Another thing when I'm doingsomething that I don't want to
do, like unpacking or cleaningor putting together furniture,
I'll like call a friend and justchat with them while I'm doing
it, and it helps to just havesomeone with you.
Yeah, someone is there with youin that moment that you're
doing something.
That is unpleasant and that'swhy, like, the social engagement
(40:04):
piece is big.
Michaela (40:06):
Well, and that's kind of what I told, what I tell some
of my clients, when we'retalking about school, I'm like
you need to find a best friendat school, Like you need to find
your school friend who's inyour class and then you do
school together.
Right, Even if you're sittingthere doing your stuff on your
own, you're doing it with thatperson.
They're helping keep you ontask.
They're like oh, did youremember?
You have this paper due, right?
(40:27):
You kind of like help eachother with remembering things,
but also like you're not feelingalone in that when it's really
hard.
Laura (40:37):
Yeah, a well-regulated nervous system is a socially
engaged nervous system.
So we can't be in defense modewhile we're in social engagement
mode.
We can't be in both at the sametime, and so what wires
together fires together.
If I'm socially engaged in apleasant way, then my defense
system is not online.
It's not defending againstdanger, because I'm socially
(40:58):
engaged and I'm not in anydanger.
I'm in this like safe spacewith my friend, and so the same
is true, for if you are, youknow alone all the time what
wires together fires together.
If you're alone all the timeand you're not socially engaged
and you're trying to doeverything all by yourself, like
your social engagement systembeing offline makes way for your
defense system to be onlinemore frequently, so that
(41:20):
isolation can kind of trick youinto feeling like you have to be
defending against thesenegative emotions all the time.
Michaela (41:28):
Sure yeah, and that's probably why, since COVID, we're
seeing more problems with youknow this because people are
doing more remote work.
Laura (41:38):
And when we're doing remote, like even this recording
remotely.
You know, our engagement systemis lit up differently when
we're on a screen than whenwe're in person, and so we're
still engaged and we're stillgetting that access, but we're
not quite getting the sameamount of social engagement as
we are if we're in person.
And if we're actually embodyingour experience together, Like
(42:00):
if we're sitting at the tablewe're both sitting across the
table from each other and we'rein the, embodying the same space
and experiencing the same spacethen our engagement system is
lit up even more than it wouldbe than when we're here online.
Michaela (42:14):
Sure, that makes sense .
Laura (42:16):
Yeah, can we think of any other strategies that help
us get things done right away,anything that we missed so far?
Michaela (42:26):
The other thing that I think about, too, is like doing
the heart rate variabilitytraining that I just started
doing and so in that, like it'sthrough HeartMath and I'm
waiting for my certificationstill but they talk about like
some of the strategies that theyuse actually will help with
(42:48):
regulating your nervous systemand actually moving you into
coherence and actually takingyou.
Like you, moving you intocoherence and actually taking
you like you, you literally lookat where you're at on a stress
state, right, if we're, whatemotion are you having?
Is it like you know, highsympathetic or or, um, you know,
more parasympathetic, um, is itmore stress or cortisol?
(43:12):
Is it more like DHEA, like?
So you're kind of like lookingat where you're at in that and
trying to figure out where youwant to go and you're picking
what emotional state you want tobe in some of their strategies
and so so you're working onadopting a different emotional
state from where you are.
That's really cool.
So that's another thing that youknow we can you can do to work
(43:33):
on is like work on that heartrate variability and that's
basically you know we can youcan do to work on is like work
on that heart rate variabilityand that's basically.
You know your heart ratevariability is like where you
are at the highest point andwhere you are at the lowest
point, and so you do a lot oftrauma work.
Someone who's in a verytraumatic trauma, in four state
they're going to have a verylittle heart rate variability.
Someone who's having like veryanxious distress, they might
(43:55):
have too much heart rate or it'sall over the place, right, and
so we're looking at that highestheart rate to the lowest heart
rate and and you can kind ofregulate that.
Your heart is sending alsosending messages to the brain
through the vagus nerve and youcan.
Your body is telling your brainhow you're feeling.
Yeah, you can create, you cande-stress your body.
(44:17):
Then you can de-stress yourbrain.
Laura (44:20):
I love that.
So breathing techniques andheart rate techniques can be
really helpful in calming yourmind, and then you can get to a
regulated state, and then youcan recognize that you have the
capacity to tolerate thisdistress and then you don't have
to avoid it anymore.
Yes, I love that.
Michaela (44:38):
Maybe you can do a demo.
Yeah, I would love that Allright, let's do it.
Laura (44:46):
Oh, right now.
No, oh, okay.
No, not right now.
Okay, we'll do it the next timein real life.
Oh yeah, I will do that, allright.
Well, I think that's a goodplace to leave it today.
Thank you so much for listeningto.
Why Am I Like this?
If you like our show, pleaseleave us a rating and review on
your favorite podcast platform.
Follow the show and share itwith your friends.
(45:07):
This episode was written andproduced by me, laura Wood and
Michelle Bieber.
Our theme song is Making EndsMeet by Thick and Thieves, and a
special thanks to Ben of ErieCounseling and Coaching and
Active Healing PsychiatricServices for sponsoring this
show.
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