September 10, 2025 • 30 mins
We explore the notorious tale of body snatchers William Burke and William Hare, who murdered 17 people in 1820s Edinburgh to sell their bodies to medical schools. Their gruesome business emerged from a shortage of legal cadavers when only executed criminals' bodies could be used for dissection.
• Edinburgh was a center for medical science in the 1800s with "operating theaters" designed for students to observe procedures
• Families used creative methods to protect graves including 24-hour surveillance, metal coffins, and protective cages called mortsafes
• Burke and Hare began their crimes opportunistically when a lodger died naturally, then progressed to murder by suffocation
• Their victims were primarily vulnerable people including the elderly, prostitutes, beggars, and people with disabilities
• Dr. Robert Knox purchased all their victims' bodies but escaped prosecution despite suspicions
• After their arrest, Hare testified against Burke in exchange for immunity
• Burke was executed in 1829 and his body was dissected, with his skeleton displayed at Edinburgh University and his skin made into souvenirs
• The murders led to the Anatomy Act of 1832, which expanded the legal supply of cadavers for medical education
If you find yourself in Scotland, visit the Surgeons' Hall Museums or the anatomy collections at the University of Edinburgh to see artifacts from this dark chapter in medical history.
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Wicked Wanderings is hosted by Hannah & Courtney and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick. Music by Sascha Ende.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
so when I put a sticker on something, I always
want to pick at it.
And then I'm like, don't pickat it, because then it's gonna
come off.
And then then, once it startsto come off, I'm like, oh, I
gotta pick it the rest of theway off.
And that just reminds me of thefact that I'm one of those
weird sticker people who, um,collect stickers but not to put
on things.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
So this is like the rest of what we were talking
about with the sticker I haveadhd.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Get off of it.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yes no, I'm.
I'm loving this, becausestickers are a weird thing where
it's like they cost five centsand we're like I don't know
where to put it, so I'm notgonna put it anywhere and the
worst I mean not the worst.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I get stickers as gifts from people when they're
like oh, this reminded me of youand I love it.
But the worst ones are whensomebody gives it to me as a
gift.
I I get this like paralysis,where I'm like I have to use it,
but I can't use it and it'slike it's just a sticker.
It's just a sticker, okay.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
This is Wicked Wanderers.
We sort of collaborated TotallyHannah's idea.
Hannah gets the credit forcoming up with the idea and the
finders.
If we had a finders fee, we'dowe it to her, but we're all
broke here and we don't payfinders fees.
(01:51):
We are all broke here.
So this is going to be a littlebit different but hopefully
collaborative in a way that'spromising.
As always.
Give us feedback, let us know.
Tell us, no, this is way toomuch, or we liked it.
I think that we had fun doingit.
Oh, absolutely.
It's interesting because thethings that I highlight in my
research about things I thinkare very different than the
points that Hannah comes up within hers too.
(02:12):
So hopefully, style wise, we'llmesh together like we usually
do, and hopefully you all enjoythe story, but I think that's
why we're doing it together.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
We're biffles.
Yeah we're biffles.
Hannah's going to take us away.
All right, let's talk aboutmedical science.
Oh, I love medical science.
Let's go to the 1700s inEdinburgh, scotland.
It was an epicenter for thestudy of medical science.
People flocked to it, and whenI mean people, usually men,
(02:40):
because of course women wereallowed to do it.
It was the 1800s, yes, so peopleflocked to this area to learn
about the human body and this iswhen the operating theater was
shaped as an actual theater.
So when we hear like if you'reon Grey's Anatomy, right, you
hear operating theater.
It doesn't look like a theater,like we may have boxes and then
it's sterile and you can seefrom up above, but an operating
(03:02):
theater looked like an actualtheater, where there's, you know
, like staging, where everyonehad a good seat and could
actually see what was happeningto a body.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And to understand and learn.
I think sometimes it's easy toget stuck in the morbidity of
that and say why would somebodywant to look at that?
But students did need to see tobe able to learn, especially
when they were talking aboutlarge volumes of students in a
place such as this, to be ableto learn, especially when they
were talking about large volumesof students in a place such as
this.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
So we have some ebb and flow, some demand, but lack
of supply in this area, and alaw was passed that made it
illegal to use bodies unless itwas a body of a murderer, and so
, since the execution ofprisoners was becoming less
common, bodies were becomingless common.
So if we had someone that wasexecuted, great, that body can
(03:48):
go to science, no problem.
But since people weren't beingexecuted like they used to be,
we're not having as many bodiesthat we can actually look at in
a scientific way and there was aton of medical students at that
time, correct Doctors.
Influx Influx.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So you can imagine having just a few here and there
.
The way that they would havenormally come in wouldn't have
been helpful, right Even withoperating theaters and things
like that.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So we have the birth of a new type of criminal, which
is they were known asresurrectionists or body
snatchers.
So families got really creativeback in the day and they were
like we need to keep our familymember that has passed safe and
if you have the money and themeans to do this, this is what
you did.
(04:34):
They would do 24-7 surveillancefor a couple weeks to make sure
the body has decayed enough,which seems insane.
Like you have like a spot atgrandma's grave, right, and
you're like all right, you takeseven to five, I'll take five to
seven the next morning.
Like it's insane, right?
Or there were cemeteries wherethey had a guard stationed and
(04:54):
you paid for that, or you caninvest in a metal coffin and
that's not as easy as to getopen.
There were also cages that wereset over the graves or blocks of
stone, and if you've ever goneto Scotland which I have, and
there's Greyfriars Abbey you cansometimes see where these cages
were placed and people werelike oh, it's because of zombies
(05:17):
.
It really wasn't because ofzombies.
They used to want their bodiespicked apart by grave robbers.
Actually, these slabs of stonewere cages.
These guys didn't stop there.
They were like, all right, well, I can't get in from the top,
I'll come in from the side.
And so, like they, would diglike 20 or 30 feet away, build a
tunnel into where the body wasburied, strip it of its personal
(05:40):
items because it avoided felonycharges.
Okay, so you leave, like anytype of jewelry or clothing, and
you would then bring the bodyto their favorite physician that
would pay them out.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
That's the most disturbing part of the whole.
I mean there's a lot ofdisturbing about it but it's for
me the, the payment of the bodyYou're you're not only stealing
something, but you're stealingsomeone and then you're selling
someone.
There's a lot moral-wise that'swrong here.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Very much so, yeah, like, what is your purpose?
Like how there's always peoplethat aren't getting the money
that they need to live, but whatis the purpose in this?
Like, do you just have money tohelp your?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
family, quick money, right, and then greed.
Yeah, I think a lot of times,with a lot of the crimes that
we've talked about on thepodcast or in general, people
see how easy it is to make abuck, or they see how easy it is
to get whatever that reinforceris for them at that time and
once they get away with it thefirst time we know, know, it's
like candy.
They just keep coming back 16times 16 times, exactly Going
(06:51):
into 16 times.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
There were two men, william and William.
So we have William Burke and wehave William Hare, and these
were not the men that were thebest society had to offer.
I think they already had somehistory behind them.
Questionable things, veryquestionable.
They were definitelyopportunistic people Yep,
(07:15):
definitely.
And they were living in thesame boarding house yes, they
were.
That a man died in his sleepand, instead of just being the
good citizens that you are,we're like let's report this to
the proper authorities.
They're like hey, you know,this guy owes money to the head
of the boarding house, which wasone of their wives at the time,
(07:36):
I believe yeah, it was one ofthe williams common law wife,
this guy, I believe how it wasworded common law wife, which
was like four dollars.
It's like four pounds, yeah,four pounds.
And like, oh, let's just sellhis body, stuff a coffin full of
firewood, so it's heavy, right,and sell his body to science.
(07:57):
And so they actually got sevenpounds by going to a Dr Robert
Knox, which is now over athousand dollars nowadays in our
money for this body, justbecause this guy died right.
And so then we have they'relike, oh, we realized how much
money we can make off this.
(08:18):
Let's go a little bit further,like why not?
So the first guy that they endup really killing, he was
actually still sick, who livedin the boarding house, and they
decided like, oh well, he'salready sick, he has no family,
let's smother him and kill himand send him to Dr Knox.
And that's how killing ofpeople from 1827 to 1828 started
(08:41):
it was very opportunistic itwas definitely none of it's
great, right, the person whoowed them money.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I think there was a more clear motive there.
It was like this person owes usmoney.
Very odd to think.
Not let's sell their belongings, let's sell them.
But poor joseph was really justsick, sick and instead of
waiting to profit off of him andhe did sound like he, like
Hannah mentioned, didn't haveany family was kind of by
himself they just struck himfull of whiskey and suffocated
(09:13):
him and then sold his body tothe same Dr Robert Knox.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And Dr Knox, which in the end spoiler alert he didn't
get any crimes put against himat all.
There was nothing to connecthim to these bodies.
But even though he had aninkling, he's not stupid right,
he had to have known.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
He had to have known bodies are coming to you.
They're pretty fresh, frequent.
You're a doctor, so you mustknow, as a doctor who teaches
right surgery, you must knowwhat the qualifications to
obtain bodies is regularlythrough the law.
And now these same two guys arecoming to you and you're paying
them right.
Definitely troubling.
(09:54):
And with the two residents thatwe talked about from the
boarding house after they weregone there was kind of nobody
left.
So they had to kind of get alittle bit more creative and
think outside the box.
At that point yeah, um, you'relooking at february of 1828 they
had to kind of either say, okay, we're going to offer
accommodations in our lodginghouse that we still have as this
asset so we can get somebodyelse kind of through the door.
(10:16):
And that person was abigailsimpson.
And they followed along thesame trend.
They, you know, let her engagein drinking alcohol and
smothered her and then quicklycarted her off to Knox's anatomy
school, again In her case verygross here, because her corpse
was so fresh.
Knox actually paid more 15pounds.
(10:39):
And after that woman there wasanother tenant of the lodging
house that followed.
And then there was anotherwoman who was actually invited
by the woman who owned thelodging house.
So at that point the women ofthe house are kind of aware.
It was two couples, right,william and William and both of
their spouses, however, thatlooked for them living in this
house, and they're basicallyjust inviting these tenants in,
(11:02):
and then these people were goingmissing.
So after that, they brought intwo prostitutes to this lodging
house.
Poor prostitutes I feel like itis always the prostitutes and
it's so sad Mary Patterson andJanet Brown.
So Brown actually ended upgetting away, and she's the only
person to our knowledge thatended up getting away from this
situation.
(11:22):
So Brown and Patterson are atthe house and Brown chooses to
leave after there's an argumentthat erupts between Helen
McDougal and William Burke oneof the other women of the house
and her William.
When she came back to the houseafter this argument thinking
things have cooled off, I'mgoing to come back she was told
that her friend Mary Pattersonhad left with the other William,
(11:43):
william Burke.
So the next morning some of thestudents right, they're,
obviously we know what happenedhere the Williams sold Mary
Patterson's body.
They obviously killed her,probably and presumably the same
way they killed everybody elseand they bring her to Dr Knox.
And in this situation some ofthose medical students actually
recognize Mary Patterson whileshe was on the dissecting table
(12:05):
which I mean we're looking atthe early 1800s.
It's mostly men, as Hannah hasshared.
So we're thinking that perhapsthis Mary has visited some of
these students and that's kindof why and I think it's
interesting because in theresearch it's always noted like
multiple sources these studentsrecognized her, but then what?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
like nothing came of it poor mary, because why would
you want to say, oh yeah, I'veslept with this woman like, or
I've seen her?
Even if you've seen her?
Yeah, that's true, they knowthat you were in a certain area
of the city or a certain houseof ill repute women of the night
right, god forbid that's true.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
So there definitely was something to gain for these
men or students who didn't sayanything and if, of course, if
you had a wife at home that'strue that would have been like
that would have looked reallybad right so unfortunately it
doesn't stop there.
The grisly spree continues andmore victims include a beggar
woman who was called Effie, whoactually earned them 10 pounds,
(13:08):
a woman who Burke hadquote-unquote saved from the
police by vouching for hercharacter, an old woman and a
small deaf boy who they sold foreight pounds each.
So it really, they really wereopportunistic.
It's kind of the point that I'mtrying to get across.
They really and I would imaginethat many different types of
body would be valuable tosomeone in medicine, but there
really was no particular like.
(13:30):
This is what we're going for.
They also did end up killingone of Burke's acquaintances and
then a relative of one of thewomen of the house, helen.
So those were all followed byan elderly prostitute also named
Mary, mary Haldane, and thenMary's daughter, peggy, and
(13:51):
Peggy actually it's sad she wastrying to come to the home to
figure out what happened to hermother, and that's kind of when
Peggy fell into the same spot.
So things are kind of startingto progress here and we're going
to see a really quick downfallwith Mary Haldane so she was
actually very well known in thearea and finally, finally,
(14:12):
suspicions are starting to risein this area.
People are like something isweird about these two Williams.
You know Burke and Hare.
So their next victim was evenbetter known than Mary, a young
man known as Daft Jamie, andseveral of Knox's students
actually did recognize him.
Knox, of course, as Hannah said, did not end up getting charged
with anything.
So he's denying, denying,denying.
(14:33):
He's saying the corpse isdefinitely not Daft Jamie, but
he really kind of was weirdabout the dissection part for
his face.
He was definitely trying tocover his own tracks, in my
opinion.
And then, in early November1828, burke and Hare killed
their 17th and final victim,mary Docherty Another Mary Maybe
Mary is their trend, very Maryand her body was actually
(14:54):
discovered under a bed in theirlodging house by two other
lodgers, james and Anne Gray.
Helen McDougall, one of theWilliams' partners, tried to
prevent them from going to thepolice by actually bribing them
and offering to pay them 10pounds per week.
I mean, I guess you have themoney because you've been
selling all these bodies likecrazy, and this was only a span
of about a year.
They reported what they hadfound.
(15:15):
Anyways, despite her bribe thatthey didn't take Andke and hair
, actually ended up removing andselling mary's body before the
police even arrived.
So what really got them allcaught up is they started
telling inconsistent stories,just like any crime with two
people, and then you know theywere, they were arrested and
they did end up finding thatmary's body at nox's school,
(15:37):
which is when they started kindof piecing everything together.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Damn I think justice really only only served through
one of these guys, william burke, and it was found that they
actually took his skin and afterhe was executed and made
souvenirs out of it, including apocketbook.
That was actually on display,actually still now, and his
(15:59):
skeleton is still on display inthe university of edinburgh and
scotland at the anatomicalmuseum.
He has become a product, apermanent product of what he was
doing to his victims, which Ithink is just perfect.
Justice, like his body, is notever gonna find peace.
It's just it's there on displayand you can look up pictures
(16:21):
online and I'm actually hopingvery weirdly, um, that I could
actually see his body at somepoint, because I just think it's
like it's.
It's permanent justice, right?
Unfortunately, william hare heallegedly went back to ireland.
He was said to be attacked by amob, which good, I'm glad,
could have rightfully happenedexactly, but not finding out
(16:44):
where his body is, and I believecorny correct me if I'm wrong
that hair actually turned onburke and said it was basically
all his fault and that's why hewas executed yeah, so from my
understanding of kind of how thenitty-gritty went for, kind of
the moment, from the policebeing called, missing them,
selling the final body, the onlyprostitute, whoever a person
(17:05):
who ever ended up getting awayfrom them was the prostitute
janet brown.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
So she ended up coming forward to the police as
well and she was able toidentify clothing that was found
at the lodging house that hadbelonged to her friend mary.
So there was definitely evidence.
I mean, obviously there wastestimony and all these people
coming in and out of this placeand going missing.
But despite all of that, thecase against Burke and Hare was
just, it wasn't watertight.
There was a lot of reallystrong evidence, but from my
(17:30):
understanding Hare was offeredimmunity from prosecution
entirely if he confessed andthen agreed to testify against
Burke, who, according to him,had committed you know,
committed most of the actualmurders.
I don't actually know what mosthas to do with it, or you know,
I mean now we look at things aslike murder and then accessory
to murder.
It definitely sounds like theyjust wanted to kind of pin this
(17:52):
on somebody, and so histestimony was what led to
Burke's execution and that datewas January 28th 1829, before
they ended up making him intoall of these artifacts and
permanent products that hannahspeaks about and sadly I do feel
like I kept coming up and I'mlike we have to know what
happened to hair.
But he was released and said tohave been blinded during that
(18:12):
attack by, you know, potentiallya lynch mob.
Some sources say that later hedid end up dying as a beggar in
london, which feels a littlelike poetic justice.
Helen mcdougall was released.
She was nearly lynched and thenfled to australia where she is
said to have remained, and thenmaggie, who was also, uh, the
owner of this boarding house,was also released and fled to
(18:36):
ireland.
Robert knox, of course, as wehad said, was notuted, even
though there was definitelypublic outcry against him.
The sources all made that veryabundantly clear that people
were like there is somethingvery wrong with this man Because
he knew what he was buying.
How are you buying bodies thatare fresh and you're not
wondering where they're comingfrom?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
and these same two guys are bringing them to you
and the amount of bodies comingin from the same guys you don't
say that's a little sauce well,and even too, I mean you have to
think about we're gonna get alittle morbid.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So for anybody who doesn't want to deal with that
gore, you know, maybe skipforward a couple minutes here.
But there's definitely adifference between a body that
has been in prison right, you'retalking about prisoners and
then a body that's been well fed, well taken care of, cleaned.
How soon they died you can tell, I would imagine, as a medical
student, bruising Like I meansuffocation, I guess was a good
(19:27):
way to do it for them, becausethere wasn't going to be like
blunt force trauma, there wasn'tgoing to be marks or anything,
maybe some marks depending on ifstrangulation was included.
But really he got away with itGrossly, dr.
But really he got away with itlike 100 grossly, dr robert knox
(19:48):
got away with it.
And then I think probably thebest silver lining of all of it
is that their activities did endup resulting in the passing of
the anatomy act 1832, which thenended up expanding the legal
supply of medical cadavers,therefore to eliminate the
incentive that had led to themurder of these 17 people.
But surely they were not theonly people who were
resurrectionists.
(20:09):
They're two of the most famousfor that area in that time, but
they're definitely not the onlypeople who had said hey, this is
a cash cow, yeah, let me justhop in here and take care of
this.
There's definitely museums, toothat I think would be really
interesting to visit if you'reout in that area Not that many
people probably get out to thatarea very often, but National
(20:30):
Geographic did have a list ontheir website of different kind
of museums and what you couldsee as far as artifacts and
history at both, Because thisstory is part of their history
these two men's history but it'salso part of anatomy and
medicine Medicine, absolutely.
And then the history of all 17of those victims too.
Yeah, we always try to use thevictims' names as much as we can
(20:54):
, and I feel like with this one,obviously because of the age of
the case and being across seasand being across seas.
Sadly, some of the peopledidn't have names, but if you
are able to come up with any, ifyou guys do your own research,
please let me know, because I'dlike to amend it to have their
names too.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I couldn't find many of them, though I think medical
history is big on our hearts,everywhere we came from, whether
it's physical or mental health.
I think that's very, veryimportant, and they were doing
what they could because theydidn't have MRIs or any of these
fancy technology in order tolook at a body, but they also
wanted to do it to bodies thatyou're not desecrating them, and
(21:30):
these men were desecratingbodies, and that's the big
takeaway here.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And I think about now people can donate their bodies
to science, but I feel like eventhere there's something being
said to say well, I'm gonnadonate my body to science, I'm
gonna sell my body to science.
it just doesn't the connotationof exchanging money yeah yeah,
for a body, and I thinkespecially I mean all around the
world, unfortunately, peopleare exchanging money for bodies
(21:57):
in some form.
But right now we're in a veryweird part of time where you
know like sex work is becomingmore progressive, but there's
also like sex trafficking, whichis selling bodies, which is not
great and like we don't hearabout people selling bodies, but
do they still do that?
That's kind of what I foundmyself thinking do people still?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I guess when you go into that criminals right, they
didn't give consent, that likeokay, if I have to die by x for
being criminal, they didn't givetheir bodies a science.
It was just people saying likeoh well, they're a criminal,
let's just give their body awayand so my mental health
background.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Immediately, when I saw that was like oh so we're
gonna study the people who workdifferently than the regular
population of people and expectto understand how everybody's
the gross overgeneralization ofthat, because there is a
difference between, you know,mental and physical health, at
least for me in the way that Ipractice.
Yeah, they're linked, they'recompletely linked, treating the
whole person.
(22:54):
So if somebody is a criminalbased off of their psychology,
then their physical health isgoing to be changed based off of
their psychological health aswell.
So interesting, just take onthat.
They thought that was anappropriate way to go about it.
Right, and you're right, eventhough they were criminals, they
should have been able toconsent to their body being
absolutely taken and and depart.
(23:17):
I'm surprised that religiondidn't play a bigger role in
that, yeah, this story didn'thave religion intertwined but I
could see where it probablycould have.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
It's a very solemn story.
It is very solemn.
So, wanderers, if you findyourself in scotland or if you
want to just check out somemuseums online, I'm sure they
(23:38):
have great online archives, likemost do.
Some of those museums are theSurgeon's Hall museums and then
the William Burke Museumspecifically, which you'll know
is one of the main characters ofour episode.
William Burke himself oh, Idon't know why he has his own
whole museum.
Yeah, that's what I want Idefinitely think that that's.
It seems like it's part of thecaddies and witchery tours.
(23:59):
They definitely like do a wholewalkthrough of it, but they're
said to have some some prettyinteresting history there and
there's definitely a lot ofpictures.
If you're more of a pictureperson, while you're learning,
(24:21):
hannah is going to end us offwith a horror movie
recommendation and I'm excitedbecause the closer we're getting
to Halloween, the more I'mlooking for movies I'll probably
never have time to actuallywatch.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Okay, which one am I going to talk about today?
Pick a movie any movie.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
She's just had so much time off this summer that
she's watched so many.
She's flipping pages on pages,on pages, okay so I'm gonna talk
about saint maud m-a-u-d.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Okay, if you have any religious trauma, do not just
fast forward right through, getthe title and move along.
Just don't.
So it's called St Maude M-A-U-Dand it is about this woman who
is a nurse.
So she was working in ahospital.
Something happened which wasnot really transparent about
(25:16):
what happened, but it wassomething very traumatic and she
started being a nurse inpeople's homes kind of like
people that were near death,like hospice nursing, yes, like
end of life comfort, care kindof thing.
Yes, okay, thank you.
That's perfectly putting it,courtney.
And make sure they get theirmeds, get their food, exercise
(25:36):
if needed, and after theexperience she had in a hospital
, exercise if needed.
And after the experience shehad in a hospital, she all of a
sudden became very religious,like God was her central focus
and so she started living withthis woman who was famous, was
an actress or technically anactress slash person who did
ballet, and she thought that shewas saving her soul from the
devil.
So overall, I should say firstI gave it overall three star
(26:02):
Okay, and the gore body horror Igave a three out of five.
And the reason I gave it athree out of five is because
there's a lot of religious bodyhorror moments where there's a
lot of hurt to self.
Okay, in order to have a betterreligious experience.
And the ending it can be verytraumatic for people.
(26:23):
I actually really loved theending.
I thought it was very poetic ina sense.
But if you do not like theself-inflicted pain stuff where
religious components come in, Iwould tread carefully.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
That's a solid recommendation.
Thank you, Rob.
Our producer is encouraging meto also add a recommendation, so
I am not doing horror movies,but I read very, very quickly
and so I think.
I'm on my 89th book of the year.
Let's talk about it and I wantto start plugging not only books
(27:06):
that are fabulous reads, but Ireally want to also plug some
authors that I think are reallyworth checking out.
So this is not a true crime,it's not a true story, it's
nothing like that that.
But if you're intopsychological thrillers,
thrillers, crime books, thatkind of thing, you definitely
have to check out from within.
It is available on kindleunlimited, okay, and it is
(27:28):
written by bg freeze.
He is amazing.
I connected with him oninstagram.
He is always available to talkabout his books.
He's definitely got just twobooks under his belt right now.
But not only does he write agreat psychological thriller and
you guys know how hard it is toget a five star review out of
me he got a five star on thefirst book but he really knows
(27:50):
how to spin a tale and he's he'sjust a phenomenal person to
interact with as well, so youdefinitely have to check him out
.
He does have his book up onAmazon.
If you're a Kindle fan, you canget it for Kindle and I believe
you can buy a hard copy as well.
But if you want to check outhis Instagram also, he is on
Instagram under BG Freeze, sodefinitely check him out.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Love it.
Look at us.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Look at us Just making recommendations to girls
who gave us microphones anyways,we did because we don't care.
But, if anybody has anyrecommendations for us, we're.
We're always open to being toldwhat we should read or what you
think would be a great topic.
It was definitely interestingto take ourselves out into a
place that's so important tohannah too.
Oh, it was nice.
(28:32):
It was really great to kind ofdive in, even though hannah had
to deal with me because Icouldn't pronounce like half of
the shit we were talking aboutyou were doing, doing great.
I you know it's the ADHD guys,but luckily.
I cropped all the things I wasgoing to say in my mind, where I
was like I can just allude toit without actually saying it.
Just you know, I thinkcollaboration worked well for us
(28:53):
today.
I think we did well.
I think it did too.
I was very which Rob will betop tier excited about when he
edits this Well.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
thank you, wanderers.
I appreciate you putting upwith us.
Thanks for wandering with us toScotland, this time Yay, yay,
scotland.
Bye.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Wanderers.
Bye guys, Till next time.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Thanks for listening.
Today, wicked Wanderings ishosted by me, hannah, and
co-hosted by me, Courtney.
And it's produced by RobFitzpatrick, Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
(29:30):
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
wandering.
Thank you.
so when I put a sticker on something, I always
want to pick at it.
And then I'm like, don't pickat it, because then it's gonna
come off.
And then then, once it startsto come off, I'm like, oh, I
gotta pick it the rest of theway off.
And that just reminds me of thefact that I'm one of those
weird sticker people who, um,collect stickers but not to put
on things.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
So this is like the rest of what we were talking
about with the sticker I haveadhd.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Get off of it.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yes no, I'm.
I'm loving this, becausestickers are a weird thing where
it's like they cost five centsand we're like I don't know
where to put it, so I'm notgonna put it anywhere and the
worst I mean not the worst.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I get stickers as gifts from people when they're
like oh, this reminded me of youand I love it.
But the worst ones are whensomebody gives it to me as a
gift.
I I get this like paralysis,where I'm like I have to use it,
but I can't use it and it'slike it's just a sticker.
It's just a sticker, okay.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
This is Wicked Wanderers.
We sort of collaborated TotallyHannah's idea.
Hannah gets the credit forcoming up with the idea and the
finders.
If we had a finders fee, we'dowe it to her, but we're all
broke here and we don't payfinders fees.
(01:51):
We are all broke here.
So this is going to be a littlebit different but hopefully
collaborative in a way that'spromising.
As always.
Give us feedback, let us know.
Tell us, no, this is way toomuch, or we liked it.
I think that we had fun doingit.
Oh, absolutely.
It's interesting because thethings that I highlight in my
research about things I thinkare very different than the
points that Hannah comes up within hers too.
(02:12):
So hopefully, style wise, we'llmesh together like we usually
do, and hopefully you all enjoythe story, but I think that's
why we're doing it together.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
We're biffles.
Yeah we're biffles.
Hannah's going to take us away.
All right, let's talk aboutmedical science.
Oh, I love medical science.
Let's go to the 1700s inEdinburgh, scotland.
It was an epicenter for thestudy of medical science.
People flocked to it, and whenI mean people, usually men,
(02:40):
because of course women wereallowed to do it.
It was the 1800s, yes, so peopleflocked to this area to learn
about the human body and this iswhen the operating theater was
shaped as an actual theater.
So when we hear like if you'reon Grey's Anatomy, right, you
hear operating theater.
It doesn't look like a theater,like we may have boxes and then
it's sterile and you can seefrom up above, but an operating
(03:02):
theater looked like an actualtheater, where there's, you know
, like staging, where everyonehad a good seat and could
actually see what was happeningto a body.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And to understand and learn.
I think sometimes it's easy toget stuck in the morbidity of
that and say why would somebodywant to look at that?
But students did need to see tobe able to learn, especially
when they were talking aboutlarge volumes of students in a
place such as this, to be ableto learn, especially when they
were talking about large volumesof students in a place such as
this.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
So we have some ebb and flow, some demand, but lack
of supply in this area, and alaw was passed that made it
illegal to use bodies unless itwas a body of a murderer, and so
, since the execution ofprisoners was becoming less
common, bodies were becomingless common.
So if we had someone that wasexecuted, great, that body can
(03:48):
go to science, no problem.
But since people weren't beingexecuted like they used to be,
we're not having as many bodiesthat we can actually look at in
a scientific way and there was aton of medical students at that
time, correct Doctors.
Influx Influx.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So you can imagine having just a few here and there
.
The way that they would havenormally come in wouldn't have
been helpful, right Even withoperating theaters and things
like that.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So we have the birth of a new type of criminal, which
is they were known asresurrectionists or body
snatchers.
So families got really creativeback in the day and they were
like we need to keep our familymember that has passed safe and
if you have the money and themeans to do this, this is what
you did.
(04:34):
They would do 24-7 surveillancefor a couple weeks to make sure
the body has decayed enough,which seems insane.
Like you have like a spot atgrandma's grave, right, and
you're like all right, you takeseven to five, I'll take five to
seven the next morning.
Like it's insane, right?
Or there were cemeteries wherethey had a guard stationed and
(04:54):
you paid for that, or you caninvest in a metal coffin and
that's not as easy as to getopen.
There were also cages that wereset over the graves or blocks of
stone, and if you've ever goneto Scotland which I have, and
there's Greyfriars Abbey you cansometimes see where these cages
were placed and people werelike oh, it's because of zombies
(05:17):
.
It really wasn't because ofzombies.
They used to want their bodiespicked apart by grave robbers.
Actually, these slabs of stonewere cages.
These guys didn't stop there.
They were like, all right, well, I can't get in from the top,
I'll come in from the side.
And so, like they, would diglike 20 or 30 feet away, build a
tunnel into where the body wasburied, strip it of its personal
(05:40):
items because it avoided felonycharges.
Okay, so you leave, like anytype of jewelry or clothing, and
you would then bring the bodyto their favorite physician that
would pay them out.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
That's the most disturbing part of the whole.
I mean there's a lot ofdisturbing about it but it's for
me the, the payment of the bodyYou're you're not only stealing
something, but you're stealingsomeone and then you're selling
someone.
There's a lot moral-wise that'swrong here.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Very much so, yeah, like, what is your purpose?
Like how there's always peoplethat aren't getting the money
that they need to live, but whatis the purpose in this?
Like, do you just have money tohelp your?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
family, quick money, right, and then greed.
Yeah, I think a lot of times,with a lot of the crimes that
we've talked about on thepodcast or in general, people
see how easy it is to make abuck, or they see how easy it is
to get whatever that reinforceris for them at that time and
once they get away with it thefirst time we know, know, it's
like candy.
They just keep coming back 16times 16 times, exactly Going
(06:51):
into 16 times.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
There were two men, william and William.
So we have William Burke and wehave William Hare, and these
were not the men that were thebest society had to offer.
I think they already had somehistory behind them.
Questionable things, veryquestionable.
They were definitelyopportunistic people Yep,
(07:15):
definitely.
And they were living in thesame boarding house yes, they
were.
That a man died in his sleepand, instead of just being the
good citizens that you are,we're like let's report this to
the proper authorities.
They're like hey, you know,this guy owes money to the head
of the boarding house, which wasone of their wives at the time,
(07:36):
I believe yeah, it was one ofthe williams common law wife,
this guy, I believe how it wasworded common law wife, which
was like four dollars.
It's like four pounds, yeah,four pounds.
And like, oh, let's just sellhis body, stuff a coffin full of
firewood, so it's heavy, right,and sell his body to science.
(07:57):
And so they actually got sevenpounds by going to a Dr Robert
Knox, which is now over athousand dollars nowadays in our
money for this body, justbecause this guy died right.
And so then we have they'relike, oh, we realized how much
money we can make off this.
(08:18):
Let's go a little bit further,like why not?
So the first guy that they endup really killing, he was
actually still sick, who livedin the boarding house, and they
decided like, oh well, he'salready sick, he has no family,
let's smother him and kill himand send him to Dr Knox.
And that's how killing ofpeople from 1827 to 1828 started
(08:41):
it was very opportunistic itwas definitely none of it's
great, right, the person whoowed them money.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I think there was a more clear motive there.
It was like this person owes usmoney.
Very odd to think.
Not let's sell their belongings, let's sell them.
But poor joseph was really justsick, sick and instead of
waiting to profit off of him andhe did sound like he, like
Hannah mentioned, didn't haveany family was kind of by
himself they just struck himfull of whiskey and suffocated
(09:13):
him and then sold his body tothe same Dr Robert Knox.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And Dr Knox, which in the end spoiler alert he didn't
get any crimes put against himat all.
There was nothing to connecthim to these bodies.
But even though he had aninkling, he's not stupid right,
he had to have known.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
He had to have known bodies are coming to you.
They're pretty fresh, frequent.
You're a doctor, so you mustknow, as a doctor who teaches
right surgery, you must knowwhat the qualifications to
obtain bodies is regularlythrough the law.
And now these same two guys arecoming to you and you're paying
them right.
Definitely troubling.
(09:54):
And with the two residents thatwe talked about from the
boarding house after they weregone there was kind of nobody
left.
So they had to kind of get alittle bit more creative and
think outside the box.
At that point yeah, um, you'relooking at february of 1828 they
had to kind of either say, okay, we're going to offer
accommodations in our lodginghouse that we still have as this
asset so we can get somebodyelse kind of through the door.
(10:16):
And that person was abigailsimpson.
And they followed along thesame trend.
They, you know, let her engagein drinking alcohol and
smothered her and then quicklycarted her off to Knox's anatomy
school, again In her case verygross here, because her corpse
was so fresh.
Knox actually paid more 15pounds.
(10:39):
And after that woman there wasanother tenant of the lodging
house that followed.
And then there was anotherwoman who was actually invited
by the woman who owned thelodging house.
So at that point the women ofthe house are kind of aware.
It was two couples, right,william and William and both of
their spouses, however, thatlooked for them living in this
house, and they're basicallyjust inviting these tenants in,
(11:02):
and then these people were goingmissing.
So after that, they brought intwo prostitutes to this lodging
house.
Poor prostitutes I feel like itis always the prostitutes and
it's so sad Mary Patterson andJanet Brown.
So Brown actually ended upgetting away, and she's the only
person to our knowledge thatended up getting away from this
situation.
(11:22):
So Brown and Patterson are atthe house and Brown chooses to
leave after there's an argumentthat erupts between Helen
McDougal and William Burke oneof the other women of the house
and her William.
When she came back to the houseafter this argument thinking
things have cooled off, I'mgoing to come back she was told
that her friend Mary Pattersonhad left with the other William,
(11:43):
william Burke.
So the next morning some of thestudents right, they're,
obviously we know what happenedhere the Williams sold Mary
Patterson's body.
They obviously killed her,probably and presumably the same
way they killed everybody elseand they bring her to Dr Knox.
And in this situation some ofthose medical students actually
recognize Mary Patterson whileshe was on the dissecting table
(12:05):
which I mean we're looking atthe early 1800s.
It's mostly men, as Hannah hasshared.
So we're thinking that perhapsthis Mary has visited some of
these students and that's kindof why and I think it's
interesting because in theresearch it's always noted like
multiple sources these studentsrecognized her, but then what?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
like nothing came of it poor mary, because why would
you want to say, oh yeah, I'veslept with this woman like, or
I've seen her?
Even if you've seen her?
Yeah, that's true, they knowthat you were in a certain area
of the city or a certain houseof ill repute women of the night
right, god forbid that's true.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
So there definitely was something to gain for these
men or students who didn't sayanything and if, of course, if
you had a wife at home that'strue that would have been like
that would have looked reallybad right so unfortunately it
doesn't stop there.
The grisly spree continues andmore victims include a beggar
woman who was called Effie, whoactually earned them 10 pounds,
(13:08):
a woman who Burke hadquote-unquote saved from the
police by vouching for hercharacter, an old woman and a
small deaf boy who they sold foreight pounds each.
So it really, they really wereopportunistic.
It's kind of the point that I'mtrying to get across.
They really and I would imaginethat many different types of
body would be valuable tosomeone in medicine, but there
really was no particular like.
(13:30):
This is what we're going for.
They also did end up killingone of Burke's acquaintances and
then a relative of one of thewomen of the house, helen.
So those were all followed byan elderly prostitute also named
Mary, mary Haldane, and thenMary's daughter, peggy, and
(13:51):
Peggy actually it's sad she wastrying to come to the home to
figure out what happened to hermother, and that's kind of when
Peggy fell into the same spot.
So things are kind of startingto progress here and we're going
to see a really quick downfallwith Mary Haldane so she was
actually very well known in thearea and finally, finally,
(14:12):
suspicions are starting to risein this area.
People are like something isweird about these two Williams.
You know Burke and Hare.
So their next victim was evenbetter known than Mary, a young
man known as Daft Jamie, andseveral of Knox's students
actually did recognize him.
Knox, of course, as Hannah said, did not end up getting charged
with anything.
So he's denying, denying,denying.
(14:33):
He's saying the corpse isdefinitely not Daft Jamie, but
he really kind of was weirdabout the dissection part for
his face.
He was definitely trying tocover his own tracks, in my
opinion.
And then, in early November1828, burke and Hare killed
their 17th and final victim,mary Docherty Another Mary Maybe
Mary is their trend, very Maryand her body was actually
(14:54):
discovered under a bed in theirlodging house by two other
lodgers, james and Anne Gray.
Helen McDougall, one of theWilliams' partners, tried to
prevent them from going to thepolice by actually bribing them
and offering to pay them 10pounds per week.
I mean, I guess you have themoney because you've been
selling all these bodies likecrazy, and this was only a span
of about a year.
They reported what they hadfound.
(15:15):
Anyways, despite her bribe thatthey didn't take Andke and hair
, actually ended up removing andselling mary's body before the
police even arrived.
So what really got them allcaught up is they started
telling inconsistent stories,just like any crime with two
people, and then you know theywere, they were arrested and
they did end up finding thatmary's body at nox's school,
(15:37):
which is when they started kindof piecing everything together.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Damn I think justice really only only served through
one of these guys, william burke, and it was found that they
actually took his skin and afterhe was executed and made
souvenirs out of it, including apocketbook.
That was actually on display,actually still now, and his
(15:59):
skeleton is still on display inthe university of edinburgh and
scotland at the anatomicalmuseum.
He has become a product, apermanent product of what he was
doing to his victims, which Ithink is just perfect.
Justice, like his body, is notever gonna find peace.
It's just it's there on displayand you can look up pictures
(16:21):
online and I'm actually hopingvery weirdly, um, that I could
actually see his body at somepoint, because I just think it's
like it's.
It's permanent justice, right?
Unfortunately, william hare heallegedly went back to ireland.
He was said to be attacked by amob, which good, I'm glad,
could have rightfully happenedexactly, but not finding out
(16:44):
where his body is, and I believecorny correct me if I'm wrong
that hair actually turned onburke and said it was basically
all his fault and that's why hewas executed yeah, so from my
understanding of kind of how thenitty-gritty went for, kind of
the moment, from the policebeing called, missing them,
selling the final body, the onlyprostitute, whoever a person
(17:05):
who ever ended up getting awayfrom them was the prostitute
janet brown.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
So she ended up coming forward to the police as
well and she was able toidentify clothing that was found
at the lodging house that hadbelonged to her friend mary.
So there was definitely evidence.
I mean, obviously there wastestimony and all these people
coming in and out of this placeand going missing.
But despite all of that, thecase against Burke and Hare was
just, it wasn't watertight.
There was a lot of reallystrong evidence, but from my
(17:30):
understanding Hare was offeredimmunity from prosecution
entirely if he confessed andthen agreed to testify against
Burke, who, according to him,had committed you know,
committed most of the actualmurders.
I don't actually know what mosthas to do with it, or you know,
I mean now we look at things aslike murder and then accessory
to murder.
It definitely sounds like theyjust wanted to kind of pin this
(17:52):
on somebody, and so histestimony was what led to
Burke's execution and that datewas January 28th 1829, before
they ended up making him intoall of these artifacts and
permanent products that hannahspeaks about and sadly I do feel
like I kept coming up and I'mlike we have to know what
happened to hair.
But he was released and said tohave been blinded during that
(18:12):
attack by, you know, potentiallya lynch mob.
Some sources say that later hedid end up dying as a beggar in
london, which feels a littlelike poetic justice.
Helen mcdougall was released.
She was nearly lynched and thenfled to australia where she is
said to have remained, and thenmaggie, who was also, uh, the
owner of this boarding house,was also released and fled to
(18:36):
ireland.
Robert knox, of course, as wehad said, was notuted, even
though there was definitelypublic outcry against him.
The sources all made that veryabundantly clear that people
were like there is somethingvery wrong with this man Because
he knew what he was buying.
How are you buying bodies thatare fresh and you're not
wondering where they're comingfrom?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
and these same two guys are bringing them to you
and the amount of bodies comingin from the same guys you don't
say that's a little sauce well,and even too, I mean you have to
think about we're gonna get alittle morbid.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So for anybody who doesn't want to deal with that
gore, you know, maybe skipforward a couple minutes here.
But there's definitely adifference between a body that
has been in prison right, you'retalking about prisoners and
then a body that's been well fed, well taken care of, cleaned.
How soon they died you can tell, I would imagine, as a medical
student, bruising Like I meansuffocation, I guess was a good
(19:27):
way to do it for them, becausethere wasn't going to be like
blunt force trauma, there wasn'tgoing to be marks or anything,
maybe some marks depending on ifstrangulation was included.
But really he got away with itGrossly, dr.
But really he got away with itlike 100 grossly, dr robert knox
(19:48):
got away with it.
And then I think probably thebest silver lining of all of it
is that their activities did endup resulting in the passing of
the anatomy act 1832, which thenended up expanding the legal
supply of medical cadavers,therefore to eliminate the
incentive that had led to themurder of these 17 people.
But surely they were not theonly people who were
resurrectionists.
(20:09):
They're two of the most famousfor that area in that time, but
they're definitely not the onlypeople who had said hey, this is
a cash cow, yeah, let me justhop in here and take care of
this.
There's definitely museums, toothat I think would be really
interesting to visit if you'reout in that area Not that many
people probably get out to thatarea very often, but National
(20:30):
Geographic did have a list ontheir website of different kind
of museums and what you couldsee as far as artifacts and
history at both, Because thisstory is part of their history
these two men's history but it'salso part of anatomy and
medicine Medicine, absolutely.
And then the history of all 17of those victims too.
Yeah, we always try to use thevictims' names as much as we can
(20:54):
, and I feel like with this one,obviously because of the age of
the case and being across seasand being across seas.
Sadly, some of the peopledidn't have names, but if you
are able to come up with any, ifyou guys do your own research,
please let me know, because I'dlike to amend it to have their
names too.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I couldn't find many of them, though I think medical
history is big on our hearts,everywhere we came from, whether
it's physical or mental health.
I think that's very, veryimportant, and they were doing
what they could because theydidn't have MRIs or any of these
fancy technology in order tolook at a body, but they also
wanted to do it to bodies thatyou're not desecrating them, and
(21:30):
these men were desecratingbodies, and that's the big
takeaway here.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And I think about now people can donate their bodies
to science, but I feel like eventhere there's something being
said to say well, I'm gonnadonate my body to science, I'm
gonna sell my body to science.
it just doesn't the connotationof exchanging money yeah yeah,
for a body, and I thinkespecially I mean all around the
world, unfortunately, peopleare exchanging money for bodies
(21:57):
in some form.
But right now we're in a veryweird part of time where you
know like sex work is becomingmore progressive, but there's
also like sex trafficking, whichis selling bodies, which is not
great and like we don't hearabout people selling bodies, but
do they still do that?
That's kind of what I foundmyself thinking do people still?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I guess when you go into that criminals right, they
didn't give consent, that likeokay, if I have to die by x for
being criminal, they didn't givetheir bodies a science.
It was just people saying likeoh well, they're a criminal,
let's just give their body awayand so my mental health
background.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Immediately, when I saw that was like oh so we're
gonna study the people who workdifferently than the regular
population of people and expectto understand how everybody's
the gross overgeneralization ofthat, because there is a
difference between, you know,mental and physical health, at
least for me in the way that Ipractice.
Yeah, they're linked, they'recompletely linked, treating the
whole person.
(22:54):
So if somebody is a criminalbased off of their psychology,
then their physical health isgoing to be changed based off of
their psychological health aswell.
So interesting, just take onthat.
They thought that was anappropriate way to go about it.
Right, and you're right, eventhough they were criminals, they
should have been able toconsent to their body being
absolutely taken and and depart.
(23:17):
I'm surprised that religiondidn't play a bigger role in
that, yeah, this story didn'thave religion intertwined but I
could see where it probablycould have.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
It's a very solemn story.
It is very solemn.
So, wanderers, if you findyourself in scotland or if you
want to just check out somemuseums online, I'm sure they
(23:38):
have great online archives, likemost do.
Some of those museums are theSurgeon's Hall museums and then
the William Burke Museumspecifically, which you'll know
is one of the main characters ofour episode.
William Burke himself oh, Idon't know why he has his own
whole museum.
Yeah, that's what I want Idefinitely think that that's.
It seems like it's part of thecaddies and witchery tours.
(23:59):
They definitely like do a wholewalkthrough of it, but they're
said to have some some prettyinteresting history there and
there's definitely a lot ofpictures.
If you're more of a pictureperson, while you're learning,
(24:21):
hannah is going to end us offwith a horror movie
recommendation and I'm excitedbecause the closer we're getting
to Halloween, the more I'mlooking for movies I'll probably
never have time to actuallywatch.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Okay, which one am I going to talk about today?
Pick a movie any movie.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
She's just had so much time off this summer that
she's watched so many.
She's flipping pages on pages,on pages, okay so I'm gonna talk
about saint maud m-a-u-d.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Okay, if you have any religious trauma, do not just
fast forward right through, getthe title and move along.
Just don't.
So it's called St Maude M-A-U-Dand it is about this woman who
is a nurse.
So she was working in ahospital.
Something happened which wasnot really transparent about
(25:16):
what happened, but it wassomething very traumatic and she
started being a nurse inpeople's homes kind of like
people that were near death,like hospice nursing, yes, like
end of life comfort, care kindof thing.
Yes, okay, thank you.
That's perfectly putting it,courtney.
And make sure they get theirmeds, get their food, exercise
(25:36):
if needed, and after theexperience she had in a hospital
, exercise if needed.
And after the experience shehad in a hospital, she all of a
sudden became very religious,like God was her central focus
and so she started living withthis woman who was famous, was
an actress or technically anactress slash person who did
ballet, and she thought that shewas saving her soul from the
devil.
So overall, I should say firstI gave it overall three star
(26:02):
Okay, and the gore body horror Igave a three out of five.
And the reason I gave it athree out of five is because
there's a lot of religious bodyhorror moments where there's a
lot of hurt to self.
Okay, in order to have a betterreligious experience.
And the ending it can be verytraumatic for people.
(26:23):
I actually really loved theending.
I thought it was very poetic ina sense.
But if you do not like theself-inflicted pain stuff where
religious components come in, Iwould tread carefully.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
That's a solid recommendation.
Thank you, Rob.
Our producer is encouraging meto also add a recommendation, so
I am not doing horror movies,but I read very, very quickly
and so I think.
I'm on my 89th book of the year.
Let's talk about it and I wantto start plugging not only books
(27:06):
that are fabulous reads, but Ireally want to also plug some
authors that I think are reallyworth checking out.
So this is not a true crime,it's not a true story, it's
nothing like that that.
But if you're intopsychological thrillers,
thrillers, crime books, thatkind of thing, you definitely
have to check out from within.
It is available on kindleunlimited, okay, and it is
(27:28):
written by bg freeze.
He is amazing.
I connected with him oninstagram.
He is always available to talkabout his books.
He's definitely got just twobooks under his belt right now.
But not only does he write agreat psychological thriller and
you guys know how hard it is toget a five star review out of
me he got a five star on thefirst book but he really knows
(27:50):
how to spin a tale and he's he'sjust a phenomenal person to
interact with as well, so youdefinitely have to check him out
.
He does have his book up onAmazon.
If you're a Kindle fan, you canget it for Kindle and I believe
you can buy a hard copy as well.
But if you want to check outhis Instagram also, he is on
Instagram under BG Freeze, sodefinitely check him out.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Love it.
Look at us.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Look at us Just making recommendations to girls
who gave us microphones anyways,we did because we don't care.
But, if anybody has anyrecommendations for us, we're.
We're always open to being toldwhat we should read or what you
think would be a great topic.
It was definitely interestingto take ourselves out into a
place that's so important tohannah too.
Oh, it was nice.
(28:32):
It was really great to kind ofdive in, even though hannah had
to deal with me because Icouldn't pronounce like half of
the shit we were talking aboutyou were doing, doing great.
I you know it's the ADHD guys,but luckily.
I cropped all the things I wasgoing to say in my mind, where I
was like I can just allude toit without actually saying it.
Just you know, I thinkcollaboration worked well for us
(28:53):
today.
I think we did well.
I think it did too.
I was very which Rob will betop tier excited about when he
edits this Well.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
thank you, wanderers.
I appreciate you putting upwith us.
Thanks for wandering with us toScotland, this time Yay, yay,
scotland.
Bye.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Wanderers.
Bye guys, Till next time.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Thanks for listening.
Today, wicked Wanderings ishosted by me, hannah, and
co-hosted by me, Courtney.
And it's produced by RobFitzpatrick, Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
(29:30):
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
wandering.
Thank you.
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