October 18, 2023 • 44 mins
In this chilling and thrilling episode of **Wicked Wanderings**, we conclude the spine-tingling tale of Lizzie Borden, the infamous accused ax murderer. We'll take you to the dramatic climax of her trial, where justice was finally served, or was it?
Join us as we reveal the long-awaited verdict in the case that captivated a nation. Did Lizzie Borden escape a gruesome fate on the gallows, or did the truth finally emerge in the courtroom?
But that's not where our journey ends. The Lizzie Borden house, the scene of the horrific double murders, holds secrets and mysteries that linger to this day. We'll delve into the eerie and unsettling theories of hauntings and paranormal activity that surround this notorious location. Are the restless spirits of the past still present in the very walls where this macabre history unfolded?
And in this special episode, we're joined by a very special guest, Hannah's brother, Jonathan. He'll share his unique perspective and insights, adding an extra layer of intrigue to the mysteries we'll uncover.
**Wicked Wanderings** invites you to confront the past and the possibility of the supernatural in this captivating conclusion to the Lizzie Borden saga. Subscribe now and join us as we explore the dark corners of history and delve into the enigmatic world of the unknown.
The Trial of Lizzie Borden by Cara Robertson
Maplecroft House on Zillow
Grave of Lizzie Borden's Dogs
Lizzie Borden House Hauntings
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Wicked Wanderings is hosted by Hannah & Courtney and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick. Music by Sascha Ende.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello Wanderers, I'm Hannah and I'm Jess, and this is
Wicked Wanderings.
Hello Jess, hello Hannah,welcome to part three of Lizzie
Borden.
Yes, and today, if you haven'tnoticed, we have a special guest
, is that?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
a guest, is that?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
who that is.
So for our episode today, Ihave my brother, jonathan, who
is a wealth of knowledge ofeverything, but also Lizzie
Borden, so I'm very excited tohave you here, jonathan.
Thank you for being here, andyou're our first guest.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Oh, my goodness, that's so exciting.
Hello, wicked Wanderers, it'sso nice to meet you all over the
microphone.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I feel like we should give him, like a award or
something that said first person, a gold star like one of those
little ribbons you got in firstgrade.
Yes, Doing something special, alittle gold skull I can wear on
my lapel to work there we go,If we ever make sweatshirts or
t-shirts or something like firstperson to go on as a guest.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Consider it done Momentous and.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
I also know that you just got your first patron.
We did Lynn from Springfield,that's so exciting First guest,
first patron, y'all are rolling.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We are.
So if you guys want to be oneof our lovely patrons and have a
shout out, go toWickedWanderingspodcastcom and
help us pay Rob for all he does.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Making us sound amazing, because if you guys
heard, like the real cut yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
It's not good.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
It's amazing.
We're hilarious, but I feellike we're more hilarious to
ourselves than to other people.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
But yeah, because sometimes we're like squirrel
and then we're like we know.
Let's go back to what we weretalking about.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
It's that, producers at it.
It makes it all beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I thought people automatically sounded that good.
Really, it's production thatmakes us.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
It's really Rob.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, it's really Rob .
Thanks Rob, thanks Rob, thanksRob.
So today we're finishing up.
Lizzie Borden we're going totalk about the verdict, we're
going to talk about her lifeafter the trials, and then some
spooky haunted stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yay, excited, okay, especially for the spooky
haunted, I know.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Monday, june 19th 1893.
The defense is giving theirspiel to the jury.
They want Lizbeth to lookinnocent and talk through all
the necessary points.
Jess, I am not sure if I talkedto you or my brother about this
, but one of you mentioned howthere was a theory that Lizbeth
had a sexual relationship withher father.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yes, from Dead Files.
Oh, that's where you heard it.
That show, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Oh, have you ever watched it?
Yes, I have.
Okay, I wasn't impressed.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, I mean some of her episodes are cool, but I
wasn't impressed with the LizzieBorden one because that's what
she picked up when she was inthe house A lot of incest
between her and her father andher sister, and I was like.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Oh, okay, yeah, oh, is this person like a medium?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yes, like they sang.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
So the basis of the show is she goes in and does her
readings.
You know they block everythingout.
Well, I mean, she would have toknow she's going to Lizzie
Borden house and then there's aretired New York City homicide
detective that goes behind thescenes and finds like the actual
facts.
And then they come together atthe end and discuss it and see
(03:18):
like if they line up.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
You mentioned how wow .
What she did not know is she'sgoing to Lizzie Borden house.
So that's what I like aboutKindred Spare to the Amy Bruni,
because Chip Coffee, who istheir medium, they'll blindfold
him because it's just to see theLizzie Borden house, you're
like, oh yes, this one wastraumatized and I think she
killed her parents.
But with him, they blindfoldhim before he gets there and
then.
So everything he senses iscompletely real.
(03:40):
At least it should be real,yeah normally she doesn't know
where they're going.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Who knows?
It's all TV.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
The defense went on to talk about how Andrew never
wore any jewelry except the ringgiven by Lizbeth.
She has his name as her middlename and they want to paint this
picture of love.
But they paint it too heftybecause the author mentioned it
can be misconstrued as a sexualrelationship, not a
father-daughter relationship.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I can't comment on the potential incestuous
relationship that she may or maynot have had with Andrew, but
everything that you guys havebeen talking about before in
these episodes about how simpleof a man he was I mean, when
we're talking about the 1890s,we're talking about what's
commonly described as historyand says the gay 90s.
(04:24):
The stock market was, peoplewere making money in the
industrial space, includingAndrew Borden, hand over fist.
This is the age, this is thegilded age.
This is the time where Americais just zooming in terms of
economic growth and Andrew kindof stands apart as a really
simple man.
You guys have talked about thatbefore, with how simple the
(04:45):
house was.
So I'm kind of not surprisedthat all the trappings of a
proper gilded age industrialistor something he didn't grab on
to, but yet he held on to thisone piece of jewelry because it
was his daughter.
I'm not discounting any of theother theories, with him saying
it kind of fits the narrativeand the profile you guys have
investigated.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Jess, he makes us sound smart.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I can you come every time?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
That's what we were trying to say this whole time.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Thank you you guys did say that synopsis and call
me readers digest.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yes perfect, but I also feel like people look for
that kind of nasty stuff whenit's not necessarily you know.
They look into the bad, intoeverything.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, that's.
The prosecution said theirpiece in front of the jury by
bringing up such things as thenote that they believe does not
exist, that apparently herstepmother had gotten to see a
friend.
It is impossible for Elizabethnot to hear the fall of her
stepmother also, and there'snowhere to hide in the house
between the gap of the murders.
But the thing that intrigued mewas the prosecution talked
(05:50):
about how sloppy Abby's murderwas.
They described how messy andinaccurate the swings were and
how they were all over the place.
The argument was it was thehand of a woman and not a man of
strength and precision who knewhow to handle a hatchet A
theory I thought of.
What if Lizbeth did kill herstepmother, changed her clothes,
bathed in the basement with theblade towels and fabric are
(06:10):
found and then changed in.
Someone else killed her father.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
You know, I have not thought about that until this
very second that you mentionedthe sloppiness of Abby's murder.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I thought that was really fascinating because from
where Andrew was murdered it wasfrom behind and it was kind of
very you obviously had to have agood muscular hand, but with
Abby it was sloppy and thehatchet works were everywhere.
And then she also got hit inthe back, which could have been
(06:42):
the initial swing, especially ifyou can't lift the hatchet too
far above your head.
You know, with a man you couldhit the head, probably no
problem with the height, butmaybe it was a woman.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
That is such an interesting theory.
I've never, actually heard atheory about dividing the actual
perpetrators before what youjust mentioned.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Using my noggin, I have solved it, but I mean it
also goes to the idea of passion.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I mean it's sloppy, it's not just the maybe the
unskilled hand with an axe, butit's also passion.
It's I need to move forwardwith this but, it's actually so
interesting that you bring upthat the Andrew's murder was
different.
I kind of I like that idea.
Yeah, I mean too, I'm on boardyeah.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
And you think of, like crimes nowadays, when they
can tell if there's like twoshooters or not, or how if
there's two people involved,based on you know.
So that would make sense,especially if Elizabeth couldn't
had a close relationship withher father and wouldn't be able
to do that, and maybe the otherperson was her uncle, was a man
(07:55):
and wasn't related to him andpart of a plan.
Just saying.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
And one to approach from the back, because he would
know, yes, he was supposed to begone by that point.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
And Andrew wakes up and goes who the hell are you?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
What are you doing here?
Yeah, I totally feel that.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Whether Lizbeth did it or not, the sexism in this
case is abhorrent and I knowI've been talking about this for
a couple of episodes like justabsolutely abhorrent.
So I'm actually going to readagain from Cara Robertson's book
that I've been talking aboutforever I feel.
But I absolutely love this book.
I finished it this week.
It was absolutely fabulous.
So, and I quote, lizzieBorden's behavior at the scene
(08:33):
of the murder suggested amasculine courage, highly
suspicious and a woman.
Nolan contrasted her quote andquiet demeanor at the sense of
the scene of the crime, excuseme with the agitation of a man
in the same position 15 minutesafterwards.
Nolan also emphasized herwillingness to go into the room
containing her late parentsbloodstained clothing, the night
after the murders commenting.
(08:53):
All I propose to make of thatincident is to emphasize from it
the almost stoical nerve of awoman who, when her friend not
the daughter or the stepdaughterof these murdered people, but
her friend could not bear to gointo the room where their
clothes were, should have thenerve to go down there alone and
calmly enter the room.
For some purpose had I know notwhat connections with this case
, he reminded the jury ofLizzie's comments after failing
(09:15):
the egg experiment reported byReagan.
That was the only thing she hadever put her mind to that she
could not do so.
The whole point was he's likeso she could look at the skulls
with no problem, she could lookat the bloody clothes, she
looked at the murder scenes withno problem, but yet her friend
was fainting over it.
I don't necessarily think thatmeans she did it.
I just think maybe she justyeah, she just didn't care.
(09:37):
Maybe her friend's a pussy.
Well, she does sound like apussy.
Actually, that woman soundedlike a definite pussy.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I would also add, just based on what you guys have
also been talking about, isthat it seems Elizabeth, if I'm
saying that correctly was also areally stoic character from the
line that you guys haveinvestigated.
But also she was under theinfluence of a tremendous amount
of drugs.
Yes, so I think her naturalproclivity to and I'm not trying
(10:06):
to defend her in any way, butif she actually did it, I think
that there was a lot going onthat might have made her.
She's kind of still in shock.
She's under a tremendous amountof stress.
Her doctors are giving her atremendous amount of what we
would now consider like illicit,crazy drugs Cocaine, that was
actually one of my favoriteanecdotes, you were like yes,
(10:29):
cocaine, it was so awkward, butyou know what it's funny story.
I absolutely adore that, butthere's also a lot going on.
I would hate to be and go andsay like she did it because she
was so stoic about it.
Maybe she was just a lot ofmorphine.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, and she probably was disassociating a
lot of the time too, becausethat's an enormous amount of
stress and her friends also saidlike that's just Lizzie, she
just is that way.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Very private.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with that
, but apparently she's not veryfeminine because of it.
Her and her broad shoulders.
Man, her and her broadshoulders.
How dare she?
One of the judges gave Lizbetha chance to speak for herself
before they did the verdict andshe said, I quote I am innocent.
I leave it to my counsel tospeak for me.
A woman, a few words.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
And well coached.
Yes, that's something yourlawyer tells you.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yes, the jurors were sent to deliberate and it only
took them an hour and a half tocome up with the verdict not
guilty.
And Lizbeth sobbed, so that'sprobably the most emotional, so
there's some emotion.
That's probably like aemotional reaction, like relief.
Later it was found out that thejury had their verdict in an
hour but stayed put for anotherhalf hour, basically to make it
(11:47):
look like they were really doingtheir job and discussing.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
You know that sounds like such a man thing to do.
No offense for the men in thisroom.
No comment.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
No comment your first guest and already being asked
to leave.
No, I'm absolutely joking.
No, that totally sounds like aa heterosexual man.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yes, gender white male thing.
Yes, lizbeth headed home toFall River where 2000 people
waited outside for her, but sheended up staying somewhere else
that night, which I don't blameher.
Lizbeth had manycorrespondences that she replied
to as well, so people likewrote her letters and stuff and
she actually had to write back.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Another thing is that the jurors took her a picture
with her.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
They wanted to take a picture with Lizzie after the
trial she had to like shake allof their hands and thanked them.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think it's hanging up at the house, so they might
tell you about that, I hope wesee that.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, so everyone might as well just tell you now.
So my brother is surprising mewith a trip to go there tomorrow
.
I'm so excited, yay.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It's our annual spooky, spooky tour.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Sibling trip how fun.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I also hope, and this is up to you and Jess that at
some point that we can do awicked wanderings trip.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
And it's like an annual trip and I'm happy to
organize it.
But we could do a differentwicked wandering spot for year.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
That would be so fun.
I didn't even need to hear theend of it.
I was like, yes, yes, please,absolutely.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I think I have an idea.
If you're interested in that,wanderers, absolutely yes, get
in touch.
Yes, because we will put yourname on the list and we'll go
somewhere.
Like I mean, we've gone toSalem and now we're going to
Fall River and some spooky spotsin Rhode Island, you know where
I want to go, but both of youhave already been to Savannah
because you guys talk about howspooky it's there.
Oh yes, I'll go back.
(13:41):
I adore Savannah.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
This is a little off topic, but it's still spooky
stuff.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Totally off topic.
If you're interested in goingon Wicked Wandering 's Tour,
list now.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yes, oh, maybe that could be like a thing?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Oh, it's totally a thing, but only for patrons.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
There we go.
Oh yeah, and mom, I guess Lynnfrom Springfield is a what going
with us.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Maybe a tour for plus .
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Rob, I'm sorry, rob and Kenzie, of course, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Pups are loud.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Lisbeth decided to stay in Fall River.
To the surprise of Benny, afterthe trial, people that were
originally happy for herreturned their backs on her.
She attended her church in July, the church that she was
extremely involved with andstarted to be shunned by all
around her.
Lisbeth and her sister moved toMaplecroft on French Street,
but still kept the house onSecond Street.
(14:29):
Lisbeth changed her name andstarted attending the theater in
Boston.
Ladi, that's Lisbeth stoppedher church charities, but she
did pay for her pew till 1905,which I thought was really
interesting.
Was it just like kind of like afuck you?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
So yeah, so they paid , she paid for it, even though,
even though she wouldn't go.
I mean, I could go off on howreligious people aren't as
spiritual and Christ like asthey claim to be.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, seriously, Prime example but maybe it was
like well, maybe she thought ifshe did, then she would get some
type of forgiveness from God,type thing.
Yeah, I don't know, that'sgoing probably a little deep.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
But who knows?
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I mean we also have to.
Just an additional facet tothis very multifaceted
conversation about LisbethBorden and religion was that
when you got to a certainsocioeconomic status in the 19th
century and even 20th century,you had to pay for your pew.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
It was.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
it was not just I want to sit in the front.
It was an understanding that Iam middle class and up, and this
is my spot.
So many churches you would notbe able to get a seat on the
first floor unless you paid forit.
You had to be in the balcony.
And if they didn't have abalcony, well, certain churches
(15:50):
especially like New York Citywhere I live you wouldn't be
able to church there unless youphysically purchased your pew.
It was also a way of it wasn'tjust I want to hire a seat, I'd
pay more money, which is alsotrue but it was also a way of
paying for expenses to thebuilding and outreach efforts
and soup kitchens and thingslike that.
So I think she probably thoughtit was just a normal duty to be
(16:14):
able to continue to pay for thefamily pew and also probably a
hope that at some day she'd beproved innocent and she'd be
able to sit there in her own youknow, told you so moment, just
as a different perspective.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I like your perspectives though.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
But yeah, I mean, this is also, I will also say, a
really interesting time andjust religion and middle and
upper class churches period overthe United States.
Because the 1890s into theearly 19th century is also a
excuse me early 20th century.
It's also really interestingtime because it's the beginning
of the movement and moving awayfrom paid pews.
It was the idea of pledging orlike tithing, or like giving
(16:55):
money because you wanted to, notbecause you were hoping to make
sure that Mrs Fafani didn'tmove up to pews because you lost
release.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yeah, so I mean, that's how the Mormon church has
gotten so rich.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
By Ryan.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Pugh's no ties.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Oh, I'm a moved out in 1905 after disagreeing with
Lizbeth's decision in life andnever spoke to her sister again,
which is so sad wait.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
What decision in life ?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
There was.
There wasn't really like muchon it, it was.
It was just kind of like shedidn't agree with how Lizbeth
was living her life anddecisions that she was making
and I was like, screw it, I'mleaving.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Oh, going to Boston and partying with the theaters.
Those, those party people actis this the moment where I'm
allowed to mention my littlefact about Mabel Croft?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, yeah, okay, of course beloved host.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
So I have read about Lizzie Gordon.
She's me Lizbeth, for yearsProbably, since I was like five.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
The way you're not gonna worry about here.
We come from a weird family, weknow, we know beloved sister so
this was totally normal.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
But when she moved to Mabel Croft If you haven't seen
photos, totally Google it.
It's on Zillow.
It was sold a couple of yearsago $700,000.
If I had $700,000 I'd be livingthere now, maybe doing the
podcast from there.
Gorgeous, beautiful Queen Annehome with a tower what gay
doesn't want a tower?
I want a tower.
(18:25):
But when?
you look at it if you're ahistorian or like a historic
house fan and you look at it andyou're like why is the whole
front porch blocked in by glass?
It's all covered in windows.
It's not an open porch, thoughthe back porch is open.
Well, the reason for that waswhen she moved in there were so
many Gawkers you know fans ofthis kind of macabre celebrity
(18:47):
that she had turned into thatshe wanted to be able to enjoy
the porch with more privacy, soshe had all the windows
installed.
So if you look it up online andyou look at Mabel Croft, lizzie
Borden's home on French Streetand Fall River, massachusetts,
you'll see the house with allthe glass windows and those are
all original from her time.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Wow, I love that.
I love it.
But it's also sad that she hadto do that just to enjoy her
piece.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
You know I Love the fact, I should say not, not why
she did it.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I'm also kind of glad I will say this, and I knew you
have so much more to tell usbut for me, after everything she
had to deal with and the wholetrial and Everything she had to
deal with with her father andher stepmother and all that you
know the chaos of the realestate deals that you guys have
outlined it's kind of nice toknow that they were able to move
up the hill, mabel Croft, andshe was able to get her own
(19:41):
house in a place where shethought that she should be.
Yeah, it's kind of her ownfulfillment.
It wasn't perfect.
It was absolutely a A brokendiamond, but a flawed diamond
but, it was hers.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
It was hers, absolutely.
Lisbeth found companionship inher dogs and treated her staff's
children with care, like shewould give them ice cream and
stuff, and I just think that'sso sweet.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Okay, a life with just your dogs.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I mean that doesn't sound too bad right, that's my
kind of heaven, just did you didyou want to talk about her dogs
, because I know you have a funfact.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Especially dogs so While I've been researching this
trip to Fall River with mysister Hannah, I Was like I want
to see where her grave is.
So of course I looked it up andthere's a beautiful Boarding
plot in the local Fall Rivercemetery for the upper crust and
it's beautiful and as a big Idon't think it's an obelisk but
(20:38):
some sort of a big monument Forthe boardings and she's buried
there with her family Labeled,is you know, on her tombstone.
This is Lisbeth.
It's not Lizzie, which I loveas well.
She kept her name that shewanted.
But then it immediately led meto the, the search and this
these forums about where herdogs there remains, had there in
(21:01):
hurdle home.
So apparently her dogs that sheloves so much pre-deceased her.
So it's understood that theywould have been buried on a plot
in Her, her property atMaplecroft.
But after her death they needto sell the home, so her
executors moved to them to acemetery in dead of
Massachusetts which is outsideBoston.
So if you kind of look at a mapit's quite a bit of a far
(21:24):
distance from Fall River.
And why is it so far?
It's because it's one of theoldest, if not the oldest,
animal cemetery in the UnitedStates this is kind of the first
.
You know your late 19th centurypeople adore their pets.
They want a place for them torest eternally, just like family
members, because they arefamily members and so they're
buried there.
And it doesn't stop there.
(21:45):
Very cool thing is that yourexecutors actually created a
miniature version of the Bordenfamily plot.
That's in Fall River, at theanimal cemetery in dead of
Massachusetts, with the same butminiature scaled Monument that
the Borden's had to.
If you want to Google it,lizzie Borden's Pop cemetery,
(22:08):
basically in dead home, and youcan go see and it's a miniature
version of the Borden familyplot.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Doesn't that so cool, that's adorable, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Different spooky tour .
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, add that to the list.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
She passed away at Maplecroft on June 1st 1927 and
she wanted to be buried at herfather's feet.
Funeral was small and her gravebricked to prevent disturbance
so no one could be digging it up, Okay she wanted to be buried
at her father's feet.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, okay, if you killed your father, you wouldn't
want to be buried at his feet.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I don't she killed happy.
I mean, look, that's at leastmy theory.
Well, that's the pronouncement.
I guess she did.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
But no, I totally hear you, jess, Right, yeah, it
makes no sense.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Right, you would want to be as far away from him as
possible.
Yeah, 10 days later Emma passedaway and they were all reunited
together in the family plotarea.
So I'm actually going to readout of the book again, because I
love this book and I quote itis tempting to speculate about
Lizzie Borden's motivation forremaining in Fall River and
enduring the ostracism of thecommunity whose good opinion she
(23:12):
had so assiduously sought.
But perhaps half a centuryearlier, nathaniel Hawthorne
penned the most convincingexplanation for his fictional
outcast and the Scarlet Letter.
And then it gives a quote fromthe Scarlet Letter, but I won't
bore you with that.
Lizzie Borden herself neverpublicly commented about the
case that altered the course ofher otherwise drab life.
Like the town that bred her andthen ostracized her as she aged
(23:33):
, lizzie Borden turned inward,reclusive and above all, silent.
I mean, I don't blame her, Idon't want to talk about it, you
know.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
So do you know about the theft that Lizzie Borden,
Elizabeth Borden, was accused ofpost trial?
No, I don't know much about itat all, so this is like a little
known fact and so I'm gettingmy information from the Hatchet,
which is a journal of LizzieBorden and Victorian Studies.
(24:02):
It's a blog, something I'veread years ago.
This is one of their posts fromJuly of 2018.
So the idea is that this isyears after the murders and the
trial.
She's living up at Maple Crop,she's in her post trial life and
she was apparently arrested fora theft in Providence, rhode
(24:23):
Island.
So it's a little bit ofbackground.
We're talking about late 19thcentury 1890s.
Fall River and Providence arehuge economic powerhouses.
They're probably not asimportant as New York City, but
they're still really important.
So you'd be able to get reallywonderful imported goods in Fall
River.
But one step up would beProvidence, and Providence is
(24:43):
not that far away from FallRiver.
So the Providence Journal fromthe 16th of February 1897.
So not that long after thetrials Reads Lizzie Borden.
Again a word for her arrest,issued by a local court.
Two paintings missed fromTilden Thurber company's store
Said to have been traced to MissBorden's home in Fall River.
(25:05):
Officials loathe to furnishinformation of affair.
The warrant was issued sometime ago and has not been served
.
It is understood that MissBorden is now claimed to have
purchased the articles and thatshe retained them.
So the idea is that she came infrom Fall River to Providence
on a shopping trip to TildenThurber, which was a high end
department store, and shebasically just pocketed these
(25:28):
two what would have beenminiature paintings on marble,
and then got back on her boathome.
It got her.
So is Murky in the end aboutwhat happened.
She wasn't in the end arrested,she didn't get into major
trouble, maybe she just gavecash to Tilden Thurber, the
department store.
But it's a really interestinganecdote like what Four years
(25:51):
after the proceedings of thecourt ended.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
That's interesting.
And thank you for sayingminiature, because I'm imagining
Lizzie holding these hugebuildings, the paintings, trying
to walk out of the building.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I was thinking the same thing.
I'm like damn, that's a bigdress or coat she has.
To stuff these under here.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Didn't we talk earlier in the episode about her
wide shoulders, her?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
broad shoulders.
Maybe she was wearing her steelcape, I don't know.
I should hide a picture.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Michael Angelou's David.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
I swear.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
I just bought it Exactly, but I just love this
idea that she had a life afterthe trials.
And she was active in a varietyof things, including Boston
Theater.
Maybe shoplifting.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
So in the book the author does talk about how she
was getting accused ofshoplifting, but I didn't know
she actually did it.
I thought, from what I haveread, it sounded like people
were just trying to get her introuble just because she was
Lizzie Borden.
I mean she may or may not havea history of stealing things
like streetcar tickets Rightright, Because there was that
(26:53):
robbery in the home that I thinkAndrew thought was happening
with one of his girls.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Which is why he locked the doors in the house.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And the jewelry and the money.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I didn't even reconnect that, that's actually
that's a good point.
Because that earlier theft, Iwas always thinking of putting
something inside.
I want some streetcar ticketsso I can have movement.
I want some cash to be able tomove around, but I never
reconnected.
Maybe it was just like a thrill.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
So she may have had a disorder which I can't think of
the name of the disorder rightnow, where you just Cliptoe.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Cliptoe maniac.
Thank you, Rob.
I don't know if that's theofficial.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Strip from our producer Cliptoe maniac.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Thanks, Rob.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
I mean there's a lot of different things.
One, she could have totally hitlike kleptomania, like she
could have just like wanted tosteal things.
Two, she could be completelyinnocent and people were just
like that is Lizzie Borden.
And we want to create a storyin the Providence Journal Three,
she could be on a rush, whichis kind of kleptomania.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Or she could have been bored.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Maybe she needed some excitement.
Yeah, see if I can get caught.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I got away the first time, but murder just stealing
art, I mean, you know it'sinteresting, like the cases.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
I've done that.
There's been a pattern withwomen stealing things because
more Murray was stealing things.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I was just thinking the same thing and she did it
for yeah, she's gonna have themoney.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Yeah, if you haven't heard that episode.
It's episode one.
Go listen, Subscribe and like.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, and then the uncle was on the streetcar
during the murders with the sixpriests, so I wonder why those
streetcar tickets were stolen.
A little too convenient, it wasall really suss though with him
.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Like he remembered too many details for like I
can't remember what I didyesterday.
And you're like, yes, I didthis and it was this streetcar
number and this conductor withthe number on his hat and there
were this many people.
That seems really suspicious.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
That sounds like someone who needs an alibi.
Right exactly, You're amazing.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Exactly so this I am so excited about because I'm
such a nerd.
So cool fact.
I love cool facts.
Remember Robinson, who was oneof her lawyers, yes, and was
also a principal atChick-A-B-High?
Yes, come to find out.
In 1866, robinson founded afirm that is located on Main
Street in Springfield and theresits in a locked cabinet the
(29:23):
Lizzie Bordenfile.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
So it's like down the street, let's go.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Seriously, she's so close Like I just want to get a
job there for a couple of days,just be like, hey, you know, can
you open that cabinet overthere?
Take a look, see.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Is it Markey Salamone ?
No, no, it's not.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
But the author of this book actually interviewed
someone about it.
So since Robinson left it inthe firm's hands, they are still
bound by client confidentiality.
Because the other lawyer hadhis files at home.
So his family just kind of sentit to the Historical Society.
But since they're still withinthe law's hands, they can't do
(30:01):
it.
I mean they could destroy them,but the guy's like why would I
do that?
This is history.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
When does that expire ?
Does attorney-client privilege?
Speaker 1 (30:10):
expire?
It doesn't, according to thisbook.
It doesn't.
It's like a time capsule.
So I wanted to read anotherquote.
Like Robinson Donovan's seniorpartner, jeffrey McCormick, who
learned about the file when hearrived at the firm in 1977,
said it would be abhorrent todispose of something as such
historic value.
So there in Springfield,massachusetts, locked in a
(30:33):
five-door filing cabinet, thefile languishes More than 125
years after Lizzie boardedgloved hand and Robinson's arm
walked out of the new Bedfordcourtroom of Free Woman.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
I need to know, I need to see that box.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Right, isn't that crazy.
When I read that I was on cloudnine, I thought that was the
coolest piece of informationI've gotten.
I want to get into somehauntings and I want to tell our
wicked wanders out there.
If you want to follow alongwith what I'm talking about,
it's actually on the LizzieBorden House website and you go
(31:06):
into the about tab and then yougo to hauntings and they
actually have like a littlestory with either a picture or a
video.
So I just I think Jonathan andJess, you both have them up, so
you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I'm on it.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Excellent.
Okay, so the first one iscalled haunting in the dining
room and is actually a video.
So it says on eight seven 22,.
Two guests staying at theLizzie Borden House in Fall
River Massachusetts had achilling, unexplainable
experience before the nightlyghost hunt.
Vicki and her daughter Emily,from Pennsylvania were exploring
(31:41):
a first floor of the house in acloset door, unlatched, and
slowly began to open by itselfjust after the lights went out
on the guests.
The two guests were completelyflabbergasted but now have one
of the best ghost stories totell their friends.
So I watched it and I just like, like, like creak open and the
mom just like slams it shut.
It freaks her out so bad.
I don't necessarily know if itwas a ghost, I don't know.
(32:06):
It just looked like an old doorswinging open.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
But creaky old house.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah Bad hinges.
Yeah, they actually showed itat the house, like the tour
guide, so I don't know ifthey'll do that when you guys go
, but they what?
They showed this video at thehouse, oh really.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
They're very proud of the open pantry.
Not to put shame on the housewe're about to see tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
This one actually really creeped me out.
So it's a picture of a familymember.
Is that Lizzie in that picture?
Can anyone tell me?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Oh, this one here yeah.
No, that's not Lizzie.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
It's a family member, right?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
So the story goes obviously related, but I mean
they have the same Bad shouldersyeah Her shoulders aren't very
broad, so I don't think it'sLizzie.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
So this gentleman, aaron, was in the basement on
the extended part of the housetour in October of 2022, when
these photos were snappedShortly before this.
Aaron remembers feeling verycold upstairs while getting
spikes on his EMF detector.
The photos are unedited and yousee Aaron's reflection taking
the photo, so you see this redshirt kind of right there.
However, one features an eeriereflection of what appears to be
(33:20):
a woman.
This coincides with many of thereports of guests and staff who
have also felt the presence ofa woman in the basement, but
nothing this discernible hasever been captured before.
I looked at this.
It actually freaked me out,because you can plainly see a
woman on the right hand side,her left shoulder.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Let's see here on her left shoulder.
Yeah, it's not very yeah Likefacing.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Do you see it?
No, is it lower?
So it's the right side, but herleft shoulder.
Can I say something from adifferent perspective?
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
So I've worked in historical homes as a docent or
a.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
That's right.
Tell the house that you were inBoston.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Oh, so I've worked in a few.
I've worked with the GibsonHouse in Boston, which is a
fabulous 19th century row housein Back Bay Preserved in what
they call Victorian amber I mean, this sounds like a commercial.
They are not a sponsor but theyshould be and basically it has
not been updated since they lastinstalled electricity in the 19
(34:25):
teens.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
And I have felt poltergeist activity there, like
I have heard voices, I haveseen things and I have heard
they have a wonderful backstaircase.
This should be a whole separateepisode and we should actually
go there.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
It could totally make that happen.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Oh, I could totally make that happen.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
It's an amazing home in Back Bay.
It really is.
It's extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
When and where.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Producer Rob was so freaked out by the presence of
the fair.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Poor Rob.
It also was Halloween time, soI was freaked out.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
And then I've worked for the trustees of reservations
, which is an amazing historicalorganization in Massachusetts
that preserves land inhistorical homes.
They've worked with MissionHouse and NomeCake, which is
aMission House, is a 18thcentury house in Stockbridge and
NomeCake is a 19th centurymansion in Stockbridge.
I've worked for the StephenHopkins house, which is a 17th
(35:20):
century into 18th century homeof one of the signers of the
Declaration of Independence inRhode Island.
So there's a lot that I've seenand I've seen poltergeist
activity in most of these, butit's always by people who want
to be there Like they love, tothis home where they had
wonderful times there and theywant to express their activity.
(35:41):
It's not Elizabeth showing upher shoulder in the reflection
of a photo of a distant boardingfamily member in the house
where she may or may not havekilled her stepmother.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
So I'm just a little bit skeptical there, I don't
think it's Elizabeth, though,because I totally, 100% agree
with you.
Why the hell would she stillwant to be there?
Because I think she's atMaplecroft.
I agree this is Abby Because Iknow so.
Kindred Spirits is one of myfavorite shows and Jess me and
you when she's the Amy Pruittwho is a?
fabulous paranormal investigatorand she even says she's like
(36:17):
it's just Abby and Andrew here.
There's Elizabeth is atMaplecroft, like why would she
want to hang out on SecondStreet that she hated so much?
That makes no sense.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
I'm so glad she said that because I totally agree
with that.
Yeah, I 100% agree.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I think that looks like a pirate.
The woman looks like a pirate,Like the white just over her
shoulder.
Looks like a pirate wearingsunglasses to me.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Well, I guess wanderers you'll have to find
out for yourselves.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Is it Lizzie Borden?
Is it a pirate?
Is it the stepmother who knowsyou should do?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
an Instagram poll.
Yes, I was just going to saythat That'd be perfect.
Be like and you'll understandwhen you listen to this week's
episode.
The next one is titled Andrew'sface in the dining room
question mark.
While on a house tour, lorisnapped this photo in the dining
room and unknowingly capturedthe spooky image of what appears
to be a face staring back ather.
(37:09):
Even more creepy is that theface looks eerily familiar.
Perhaps Mr Andrew JacksonBorden himself?
It's difficult to tell forcertain, but we'll let you
compare the images yourself.
So there's a couple that youcan see.
They circled and they did likea side by side of Andrew's face.
I think it's looking forsomething in the light.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, I think.
To me it does look like a face,but it could be a flash of
shadows and light.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yeah, I don't think it's much of anything.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Because even if I was murdered in a house like that I
might haunt around the couchwhere I was murdered, but also
considering that I had beenpoisoned probably twice from
Badminton and something else Imay not want to hang around the
dining room.
Maybe I'd be salty about it,but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
The next one that I really liked is the shadow
figure in the parlor.
Stephanie and her friends Chrisand Chrissy shared enough
forgettable experience in thefront parlor of the Lizzie
Borden house.
Chris she'll, laying on thecouch reportedly asked the
spirit of Mr Borden about hisreputation as a penny pincher
shortly before this photo wassnapped.
When Stephanie later reviewedthe photos, she could not
(38:15):
believe what was captured.
A shadow figure appears to beentering the room on the left
side of the photo.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Okay, that's probably more realistic for me.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
The shadow figure.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
He was like I'm not a pinchy pincher.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
I'm kind of curious, so I'm looking at this now.
You see that this gentleman hasdecided to be in the position
that Andrew Borden was in whenhe died.
Do you think that could be themurderer?
Yes, that would be more clear.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
What a great idea.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Honestly.
But the murder has womanlyfeatures in the face though, but
the height of a man, I don'tknow.
What do the shoulders look like.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
It looked a little sloped.
I think it's the ankle.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I'm wondering that he was like I'm here for the penny
pincher.
I wonder if anyone's asked ifJohn Morris is there because
everyone wants to talk to Abbyor Andrew, because anyone tried
talking to John Morris.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
He'd probably be tied to the place regardless of
where he died.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
And what about?
Do you guys believe in residualenergy?
This is a very traumatic eventand maybe just going through the
motions of the murder, therepetition yes.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
We also have to consider, and the way I kind of
understand it is that we know tosay you're cooking something
right and you're using a woodenspoon.
The wooden spoon heats up alittle bit.
It can conducts energy in itsown way, how scissors are built
of wood and metal they conductenergy, they hold energy.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
I'm not surprised if some sort of weird energy stays
in the place that is so dramaticas you were saying Absolutely
yeah, guys.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
I think that's that yes.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
That's my favorite.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yep, absolutely my favorite so far.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
The person over the shoulder.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
I can't wait until to hear back after your tour.
I'm so excited Because there'sthis part in the basement that
they try to work up and have youtake a picture of it.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
And I called BS on it and he's like I probably will
be posting some pictures to it,please do, and I know that
Jonathan said that he would takepictures of me at certain
places on our spooky trip.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Oh, totally yes.
So group photo with Elizabeththe cemetery or something at
Mabelcroft.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
See if the pirate shows in the back of your
pictures.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
I just think an important thing is, especially
entering these homes that haveso much history and dark history
like this, is just to berespectful.
Respectful, yeah, I think that,like I bring up Amy Brony again
, but I love how she'srespectful and she tries to get
the facts right.
You're not going in there likeI know you did it, leslie Like
look what you did and just likelike interrogate them and say
mean things.
Just go in there respectfully,like hey, I'm just going to come
(41:03):
out, hang out for a minute,don't mind, even if you don't
believe it.
I think, just respecting thespace, I agree what you need to
go.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
So there was another funny story when I went to the
Lizzie Boardhouse is afterwardsI think everyone was supposed to
go outside but they went backinto the living room and I was
in the hallway because I don'tlike being in crowds in small
places and as I walked by, thelamp in the hallway it like
(41:32):
turned on, oh, oh.
So I'm like, well, that'sinteresting.
And the tour guide was talkingto the other people in the room.
I'm like, hey, quick question.
He's like, yeah, lamp, a motionlamp.
He goes.
Yes, it is Mike.
Okay, but I was nonchalant,mike, I Thought it was funny.
(42:03):
I love it.
Not as funny as the cocaine,okay.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Or teats, yes, we get to hear more about teats next
week.
Yes, I'm so excited for theteats it's in my secret parts.
Well, thank you both and John,and thank you so much for being
on this episode.
I hope to see you in episodesupcoming.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Thank you both so much.
This was an honor to be able tojoin Wicked Wanderings.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
You made us so smart, so anytime.
Well you are smart.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Interesting, and this was just such a joy.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Thank you, thanks for coming.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Thanks for listening today.
The show wouldn't be possiblewithout our amazing producer and
editor, rob Fitzpatrick, whoworks tirelessly behind the
scenes to bring you the bestcontent and a special thanks to
Tyga sound prod for providingthe captivating intro music.
Cinematic intro 24 and ofcourse, we can't forget the
hauntingly beautiful outro music, rhino's theme, composed by
(42:56):
Kevin McLeod if you enjoyedtoday's episode, make sure to
leave a rating and review.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Honor your favorite podcast platforms like Spotify,
apple and YouTube.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Your feedback means the world to us Also be sure to
follow us on Instagram forbehind the scenes blimpses,
updates and more thrillingcontent.
You could find us at WickedWanderings podcast.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Thank you so much for listening and being part of our
Wicked Wanderings community.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
We appreciate each and every one of you Stay
curious, keep exploring andalways remember to keep on
wandering.
Since you guys are herelistening, you must be a fan of
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Speaker 3 (43:35):
And if you want to show your support, head over to
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Speaker 2 (43:45):
Click on the support button and click on the
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Click on the subscriptionbutton and click on the
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Click on the support tab andchoose a monthly subscription
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Your contributions willdirectly fuel our podcast
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(44:07):
every episode.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
And you know what might be fun too if, like we
will say your name and like yourfavorite Haunting place, murder
mystery or serial killer youlove to go.
Hello Wanderers, I'm Hannah and I'm Jess, and this is
Wicked Wanderings.
Hello Jess, hello Hannah,welcome to part three of Lizzie
Borden.
Yes, and today, if you haven'tnoticed, we have a special guest
, is that?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
a guest, is that?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
who that is.
So for our episode today, Ihave my brother, jonathan, who
is a wealth of knowledge ofeverything, but also Lizzie
Borden, so I'm very excited tohave you here, jonathan.
Thank you for being here, andyou're our first guest.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Oh, my goodness, that's so exciting.
Hello, wicked Wanderers, it'sso nice to meet you all over the
microphone.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I feel like we should give him, like a award or
something that said first person, a gold star like one of those
little ribbons you got in firstgrade.
Yes, Doing something special, alittle gold skull I can wear on
my lapel to work there we go,If we ever make sweatshirts or
t-shirts or something like firstperson to go on as a guest.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Consider it done Momentous and.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
I also know that you just got your first patron.
We did Lynn from Springfield,that's so exciting First guest,
first patron, y'all are rolling.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We are.
So if you guys want to be oneof our lovely patrons and have a
shout out, go toWickedWanderingspodcastcom and
help us pay Rob for all he does.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Making us sound amazing, because if you guys
heard, like the real cut yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
It's not good.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
It's amazing.
We're hilarious, but I feellike we're more hilarious to
ourselves than to other people.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
But yeah, because sometimes we're like squirrel
and then we're like we know.
Let's go back to what we weretalking about.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
It's that, producers at it.
It makes it all beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I thought people automatically sounded that good.
Really, it's production thatmakes us.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
It's really Rob.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, it's really Rob .
Thanks Rob, thanks Rob, thanksRob.
So today we're finishing up.
Lizzie Borden we're going totalk about the verdict, we're
going to talk about her lifeafter the trials, and then some
spooky haunted stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yay, excited, okay, especially for the spooky
haunted, I know.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Monday, june 19th 1893.
The defense is giving theirspiel to the jury.
They want Lizbeth to lookinnocent and talk through all
the necessary points.
Jess, I am not sure if I talkedto you or my brother about this
, but one of you mentioned howthere was a theory that Lizbeth
had a sexual relationship withher father.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yes, from Dead Files.
Oh, that's where you heard it.
That show, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Oh, have you ever watched it?
Yes, I have.
Okay, I wasn't impressed.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, I mean some of her episodes are cool, but I
wasn't impressed with the LizzieBorden one because that's what
she picked up when she was inthe house A lot of incest
between her and her father andher sister, and I was like.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Oh, okay, yeah, oh, is this person like a medium?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yes, like they sang.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
So the basis of the show is she goes in and does her
readings.
You know they block everythingout.
Well, I mean, she would have toknow she's going to Lizzie
Borden house and then there's aretired New York City homicide
detective that goes behind thescenes and finds like the actual
facts.
And then they come together atthe end and discuss it and see
(03:18):
like if they line up.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
You mentioned how wow .
What she did not know is she'sgoing to Lizzie Borden house.
So that's what I like aboutKindred Spare to the Amy Bruni,
because Chip Coffee, who istheir medium, they'll blindfold
him because it's just to see theLizzie Borden house, you're
like, oh yes, this one wastraumatized and I think she
killed her parents.
But with him, they blindfoldhim before he gets there and
then.
So everything he senses iscompletely real.
(03:40):
At least it should be real,yeah normally she doesn't know
where they're going.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Who knows?
It's all TV.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
The defense went on to talk about how Andrew never
wore any jewelry except the ringgiven by Lizbeth.
She has his name as her middlename and they want to paint this
picture of love.
But they paint it too heftybecause the author mentioned it
can be misconstrued as a sexualrelationship, not a
father-daughter relationship.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I can't comment on the potential incestuous
relationship that she may or maynot have had with Andrew, but
everything that you guys havebeen talking about before in
these episodes about how simpleof a man he was I mean, when
we're talking about the 1890s,we're talking about what's
commonly described as historyand says the gay 90s.
(04:24):
The stock market was, peoplewere making money in the
industrial space, includingAndrew Borden, hand over fist.
This is the age, this is thegilded age.
This is the time where Americais just zooming in terms of
economic growth and Andrew kindof stands apart as a really
simple man.
You guys have talked about thatbefore, with how simple the
(04:45):
house was.
So I'm kind of not surprisedthat all the trappings of a
proper gilded age industrialistor something he didn't grab on
to, but yet he held on to thisone piece of jewelry because it
was his daughter.
I'm not discounting any of theother theories, with him saying
it kind of fits the narrativeand the profile you guys have
investigated.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Jess, he makes us sound smart.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I can you come every time?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
That's what we were trying to say this whole time.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Thank you you guys did say that synopsis and call
me readers digest.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yes perfect, but I also feel like people look for
that kind of nasty stuff whenit's not necessarily you know.
They look into the bad, intoeverything.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, that's.
The prosecution said theirpiece in front of the jury by
bringing up such things as thenote that they believe does not
exist, that apparently herstepmother had gotten to see a
friend.
It is impossible for Elizabethnot to hear the fall of her
stepmother also, and there'snowhere to hide in the house
between the gap of the murders.
But the thing that intrigued mewas the prosecution talked
(05:50):
about how sloppy Abby's murderwas.
They described how messy andinaccurate the swings were and
how they were all over the place.
The argument was it was thehand of a woman and not a man of
strength and precision who knewhow to handle a hatchet A
theory I thought of.
What if Lizbeth did kill herstepmother, changed her clothes,
bathed in the basement with theblade towels and fabric are
(06:10):
found and then changed in.
Someone else killed her father.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
You know, I have not thought about that until this
very second that you mentionedthe sloppiness of Abby's murder.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I thought that was really fascinating because from
where Andrew was murdered it wasfrom behind and it was kind of
very you obviously had to have agood muscular hand, but with
Abby it was sloppy and thehatchet works were everywhere.
And then she also got hit inthe back, which could have been
(06:42):
the initial swing, especially ifyou can't lift the hatchet too
far above your head.
You know, with a man you couldhit the head, probably no
problem with the height, butmaybe it was a woman.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
That is such an interesting theory.
I've never, actually heard atheory about dividing the actual
perpetrators before what youjust mentioned.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Using my noggin, I have solved it, but I mean it
also goes to the idea of passion.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I mean it's sloppy, it's not just the maybe the
unskilled hand with an axe, butit's also passion.
It's I need to move forwardwith this but, it's actually so
interesting that you bring upthat the Andrew's murder was
different.
I kind of I like that idea.
Yeah, I mean too, I'm on boardyeah.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
And you think of, like crimes nowadays, when they
can tell if there's like twoshooters or not, or how if
there's two people involved,based on you know.
So that would make sense,especially if Elizabeth couldn't
had a close relationship withher father and wouldn't be able
to do that, and maybe the otherperson was her uncle, was a man
(07:55):
and wasn't related to him andpart of a plan.
Just saying.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
And one to approach from the back, because he would
know, yes, he was supposed to begone by that point.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
And Andrew wakes up and goes who the hell are you?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
What are you doing here?
Yeah, I totally feel that.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Whether Lizbeth did it or not, the sexism in this
case is abhorrent and I knowI've been talking about this for
a couple of episodes like justabsolutely abhorrent.
So I'm actually going to readagain from Cara Robertson's book
that I've been talking aboutforever I feel.
But I absolutely love this book.
I finished it this week.
It was absolutely fabulous.
So, and I quote, lizzieBorden's behavior at the scene
(08:33):
of the murder suggested amasculine courage, highly
suspicious and a woman.
Nolan contrasted her quote andquiet demeanor at the sense of
the scene of the crime, excuseme with the agitation of a man
in the same position 15 minutesafterwards.
Nolan also emphasized herwillingness to go into the room
containing her late parentsbloodstained clothing, the night
after the murders commenting.
(08:53):
All I propose to make of thatincident is to emphasize from it
the almost stoical nerve of awoman who, when her friend not
the daughter or the stepdaughterof these murdered people, but
her friend could not bear to gointo the room where their
clothes were, should have thenerve to go down there alone and
calmly enter the room.
For some purpose had I know notwhat connections with this case
, he reminded the jury ofLizzie's comments after failing
(09:15):
the egg experiment reported byReagan.
That was the only thing she hadever put her mind to that she
could not do so.
The whole point was he's likeso she could look at the skulls
with no problem, she could lookat the bloody clothes, she
looked at the murder scenes withno problem, but yet her friend
was fainting over it.
I don't necessarily think thatmeans she did it.
I just think maybe she justyeah, she just didn't care.
(09:37):
Maybe her friend's a pussy.
Well, she does sound like apussy.
Actually, that woman soundedlike a definite pussy.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I would also add, just based on what you guys have
also been talking about, isthat it seems Elizabeth, if I'm
saying that correctly was also areally stoic character from the
line that you guys haveinvestigated.
But also she was under theinfluence of a tremendous amount
of drugs.
Yes, so I think her naturalproclivity to and I'm not trying
(10:06):
to defend her in any way, butif she actually did it, I think
that there was a lot going onthat might have made her.
She's kind of still in shock.
She's under a tremendous amountof stress.
Her doctors are giving her atremendous amount of what we
would now consider like illicit,crazy drugs Cocaine, that was
actually one of my favoriteanecdotes, you were like yes,
(10:29):
cocaine, it was so awkward, butyou know what it's funny story.
I absolutely adore that, butthere's also a lot going on.
I would hate to be and go andsay like she did it because she
was so stoic about it.
Maybe she was just a lot ofmorphine.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, and she probably was disassociating a
lot of the time too, becausethat's an enormous amount of
stress and her friends also saidlike that's just Lizzie, she
just is that way.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Very private.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with that
, but apparently she's not veryfeminine because of it.
Her and her broad shoulders.
Man, her and her broadshoulders.
How dare she?
One of the judges gave Lizbetha chance to speak for herself
before they did the verdict andshe said, I quote I am innocent.
I leave it to my counsel tospeak for me.
A woman, a few words.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
And well coached.
Yes, that's something yourlawyer tells you.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yes, the jurors were sent to deliberate and it only
took them an hour and a half tocome up with the verdict not
guilty.
And Lizbeth sobbed, so that'sprobably the most emotional, so
there's some emotion.
That's probably like aemotional reaction, like relief.
Later it was found out that thejury had their verdict in an
hour but stayed put for anotherhalf hour, basically to make it
(11:47):
look like they were really doingtheir job and discussing.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
You know that sounds like such a man thing to do.
No offense for the men in thisroom.
No comment.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
No comment your first guest and already being asked
to leave.
No, I'm absolutely joking.
No, that totally sounds like aa heterosexual man.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yes, gender white male thing.
Yes, lizbeth headed home toFall River where 2000 people
waited outside for her, but sheended up staying somewhere else
that night, which I don't blameher.
Lizbeth had manycorrespondences that she replied
to as well, so people likewrote her letters and stuff and
she actually had to write back.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Another thing is that the jurors took her a picture
with her.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
They wanted to take a picture with Lizzie after the
trial she had to like shake allof their hands and thanked them.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think it's hanging up at the house, so they might
tell you about that, I hope wesee that.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, so everyone might as well just tell you now.
So my brother is surprising mewith a trip to go there tomorrow
.
I'm so excited, yay.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It's our annual spooky, spooky tour.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Sibling trip how fun.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I also hope, and this is up to you and Jess that at
some point that we can do awicked wanderings trip.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
And it's like an annual trip and I'm happy to
organize it.
But we could do a differentwicked wandering spot for year.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
That would be so fun.
I didn't even need to hear theend of it.
I was like, yes, yes, please,absolutely.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I think I have an idea.
If you're interested in that,wanderers, absolutely yes, get
in touch.
Yes, because we will put yourname on the list and we'll go
somewhere.
Like I mean, we've gone toSalem and now we're going to
Fall River and some spooky spotsin Rhode Island, you know where
I want to go, but both of youhave already been to Savannah
because you guys talk about howspooky it's there.
Oh yes, I'll go back.
(13:41):
I adore Savannah.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
This is a little off topic, but it's still spooky
stuff.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Totally off topic.
If you're interested in goingon Wicked Wandering 's Tour,
list now.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yes, oh, maybe that could be like a thing?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Oh, it's totally a thing, but only for patrons.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
There we go.
Oh yeah, and mom, I guess Lynnfrom Springfield is a what going
with us.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Maybe a tour for plus .
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Rob, I'm sorry, rob and Kenzie, of course, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Pups are loud.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Lisbeth decided to stay in Fall River.
To the surprise of Benny, afterthe trial, people that were
originally happy for herreturned their backs on her.
She attended her church in July, the church that she was
extremely involved with andstarted to be shunned by all
around her.
Lisbeth and her sister moved toMaplecroft on French Street,
but still kept the house onSecond Street.
(14:29):
Lisbeth changed her name andstarted attending the theater in
Boston.
Ladi, that's Lisbeth stoppedher church charities, but she
did pay for her pew till 1905,which I thought was really
interesting.
Was it just like kind of like afuck you?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
So yeah, so they paid , she paid for it, even though,
even though she wouldn't go.
I mean, I could go off on howreligious people aren't as
spiritual and Christ like asthey claim to be.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, seriously, Prime example but maybe it was
like well, maybe she thought ifshe did, then she would get some
type of forgiveness from God,type thing.
Yeah, I don't know, that'sgoing probably a little deep.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
But who knows?
Speaker 3 (15:10):
I mean we also have to.
Just an additional facet tothis very multifaceted
conversation about LisbethBorden and religion was that
when you got to a certainsocioeconomic status in the 19th
century and even 20th century,you had to pay for your pew.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
It was.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
it was not just I want to sit in the front.
It was an understanding that Iam middle class and up, and this
is my spot.
So many churches you would notbe able to get a seat on the
first floor unless you paid forit.
You had to be in the balcony.
And if they didn't have abalcony, well, certain churches
(15:50):
especially like New York Citywhere I live you wouldn't be
able to church there unless youphysically purchased your pew.
It was also a way of it wasn'tjust I want to hire a seat, I'd
pay more money, which is alsotrue but it was also a way of
paying for expenses to thebuilding and outreach efforts
and soup kitchens and thingslike that.
So I think she probably thoughtit was just a normal duty to be
(16:14):
able to continue to pay for thefamily pew and also probably a
hope that at some day she'd beproved innocent and she'd be
able to sit there in her own youknow, told you so moment, just
as a different perspective.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I like your perspectives though.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
But yeah, I mean, this is also, I will also say, a
really interesting time andjust religion and middle and
upper class churches period overthe United States.
Because the 1890s into theearly 19th century is also a
excuse me early 20th century.
It's also really interestingtime because it's the beginning
of the movement and moving awayfrom paid pews.
It was the idea of pledging orlike tithing, or like giving
(16:55):
money because you wanted to, notbecause you were hoping to make
sure that Mrs Fafani didn'tmove up to pews because you lost
release.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Yeah, so I mean, that's how the Mormon church has
gotten so rich.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
By Ryan.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Pugh's no ties.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Oh, I'm a moved out in 1905 after disagreeing with
Lizbeth's decision in life andnever spoke to her sister again,
which is so sad wait.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
What decision in life ?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
There was.
There wasn't really like muchon it, it was.
It was just kind of like shedidn't agree with how Lizbeth
was living her life anddecisions that she was making
and I was like, screw it, I'mleaving.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Oh, going to Boston and partying with the theaters.
Those, those party people actis this the moment where I'm
allowed to mention my littlefact about Mabel Croft?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, yeah, okay, of course beloved host.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
So I have read about Lizzie Gordon.
She's me Lizbeth, for yearsProbably, since I was like five.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
The way you're not gonna worry about here.
We come from a weird family, weknow, we know beloved sister so
this was totally normal.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
But when she moved to Mabel Croft If you haven't seen
photos, totally Google it.
It's on Zillow.
It was sold a couple of yearsago $700,000.
If I had $700,000 I'd be livingthere now, maybe doing the
podcast from there.
Gorgeous, beautiful Queen Annehome with a tower what gay
doesn't want a tower?
I want a tower.
(18:25):
But when?
you look at it if you're ahistorian or like a historic
house fan and you look at it andyou're like why is the whole
front porch blocked in by glass?
It's all covered in windows.
It's not an open porch, thoughthe back porch is open.
Well, the reason for that waswhen she moved in there were so
many Gawkers you know fans ofthis kind of macabre celebrity
(18:47):
that she had turned into thatshe wanted to be able to enjoy
the porch with more privacy, soshe had all the windows
installed.
So if you look it up online andyou look at Mabel Croft, lizzie
Borden's home on French Streetand Fall River, massachusetts,
you'll see the house with allthe glass windows and those are
all original from her time.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Wow, I love that.
I love it.
But it's also sad that she hadto do that just to enjoy her
piece.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
You know I Love the fact, I should say not, not why
she did it.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I'm also kind of glad I will say this, and I knew you
have so much more to tell usbut for me, after everything she
had to deal with and the wholetrial and Everything she had to
deal with with her father andher stepmother and all that you
know the chaos of the realestate deals that you guys have
outlined it's kind of nice toknow that they were able to move
up the hill, mabel Croft, andshe was able to get her own
(19:41):
house in a place where shethought that she should be.
Yeah, it's kind of her ownfulfillment.
It wasn't perfect.
It was absolutely a A brokendiamond, but a flawed diamond
but, it was hers.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
It was hers, absolutely.
Lisbeth found companionship inher dogs and treated her staff's
children with care, like shewould give them ice cream and
stuff, and I just think that'sso sweet.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Okay, a life with just your dogs.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I mean that doesn't sound too bad right, that's my
kind of heaven, just did you didyou want to talk about her dogs
, because I know you have a funfact.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Especially dogs so While I've been researching this
trip to Fall River with mysister Hannah, I Was like I want
to see where her grave is.
So of course I looked it up andthere's a beautiful Boarding
plot in the local Fall Rivercemetery for the upper crust and
it's beautiful and as a big Idon't think it's an obelisk but
(20:38):
some sort of a big monument Forthe boardings and she's buried
there with her family Labeled,is you know, on her tombstone.
This is Lisbeth.
It's not Lizzie, which I loveas well.
She kept her name that shewanted.
But then it immediately led meto the, the search and this
these forums about where herdogs there remains, had there in
(21:01):
hurdle home.
So apparently her dogs that sheloves so much pre-deceased her.
So it's understood that theywould have been buried on a plot
in Her, her property atMaplecroft.
But after her death they needto sell the home, so her
executors moved to them to acemetery in dead of
Massachusetts which is outsideBoston.
So if you kind of look at a mapit's quite a bit of a far
(21:24):
distance from Fall River.
And why is it so far?
It's because it's one of theoldest, if not the oldest,
animal cemetery in the UnitedStates this is kind of the first
.
You know your late 19th centurypeople adore their pets.
They want a place for them torest eternally, just like family
members, because they arefamily members and so they're
buried there.
And it doesn't stop there.
(21:45):
Very cool thing is that yourexecutors actually created a
miniature version of the Bordenfamily plot.
That's in Fall River, at theanimal cemetery in dead of
Massachusetts, with the same butminiature scaled Monument that
the Borden's had to.
If you want to Google it,lizzie Borden's Pop cemetery,
(22:08):
basically in dead home, and youcan go see and it's a miniature
version of the Borden familyplot.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Doesn't that so cool, that's adorable, oh my god.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Different spooky tour .
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, add that to the list.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
She passed away at Maplecroft on June 1st 1927 and
she wanted to be buried at herfather's feet.
Funeral was small and her gravebricked to prevent disturbance
so no one could be digging it up, Okay she wanted to be buried
at her father's feet.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, okay, if you killed your father, you wouldn't
want to be buried at his feet.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I don't she killed happy.
I mean, look, that's at leastmy theory.
Well, that's the pronouncement.
I guess she did.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
But no, I totally hear you, jess, Right, yeah, it
makes no sense.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Right, you would want to be as far away from him as
possible.
Yeah, 10 days later Emma passedaway and they were all reunited
together in the family plotarea.
So I'm actually going to readout of the book again, because I
love this book and I quote itis tempting to speculate about
Lizzie Borden's motivation forremaining in Fall River and
enduring the ostracism of thecommunity whose good opinion she
(23:12):
had so assiduously sought.
But perhaps half a centuryearlier, nathaniel Hawthorne
penned the most convincingexplanation for his fictional
outcast and the Scarlet Letter.
And then it gives a quote fromthe Scarlet Letter, but I won't
bore you with that.
Lizzie Borden herself neverpublicly commented about the
case that altered the course ofher otherwise drab life.
Like the town that bred her andthen ostracized her as she aged
(23:33):
, lizzie Borden turned inward,reclusive and above all, silent.
I mean, I don't blame her, Idon't want to talk about it, you
know.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
So do you know about the theft that Lizzie Borden,
Elizabeth Borden, was accused ofpost trial?
No, I don't know much about itat all, so this is like a little
known fact and so I'm gettingmy information from the Hatchet,
which is a journal of LizzieBorden and Victorian Studies.
(24:02):
It's a blog, something I'veread years ago.
This is one of their posts fromJuly of 2018.
So the idea is that this isyears after the murders and the
trial.
She's living up at Maple Crop,she's in her post trial life and
she was apparently arrested fora theft in Providence, rhode
(24:23):
Island.
So it's a little bit ofbackground.
We're talking about late 19thcentury 1890s.
Fall River and Providence arehuge economic powerhouses.
They're probably not asimportant as New York City, but
they're still really important.
So you'd be able to get reallywonderful imported goods in Fall
River.
But one step up would beProvidence, and Providence is
(24:43):
not that far away from FallRiver.
So the Providence Journal fromthe 16th of February 1897.
So not that long after thetrials Reads Lizzie Borden.
Again a word for her arrest,issued by a local court.
Two paintings missed fromTilden Thurber company's store
Said to have been traced to MissBorden's home in Fall River.
(25:05):
Officials loathe to furnishinformation of affair.
The warrant was issued sometime ago and has not been served
.
It is understood that MissBorden is now claimed to have
purchased the articles and thatshe retained them.
So the idea is that she came infrom Fall River to Providence
on a shopping trip to TildenThurber, which was a high end
department store, and shebasically just pocketed these
(25:28):
two what would have beenminiature paintings on marble,
and then got back on her boathome.
It got her.
So is Murky in the end aboutwhat happened.
She wasn't in the end arrested,she didn't get into major
trouble, maybe she just gavecash to Tilden Thurber, the
department store.
But it's a really interestinganecdote like what Four years
(25:51):
after the proceedings of thecourt ended.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
That's interesting.
And thank you for sayingminiature, because I'm imagining
Lizzie holding these hugebuildings, the paintings, trying
to walk out of the building.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I was thinking the same thing.
I'm like damn, that's a bigdress or coat she has.
To stuff these under here.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Didn't we talk earlier in the episode about her
wide shoulders, her?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
broad shoulders.
Maybe she was wearing her steelcape, I don't know.
I should hide a picture.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Michael Angelou's David.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
I swear.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
I just bought it Exactly, but I just love this
idea that she had a life afterthe trials.
And she was active in a varietyof things, including Boston
Theater.
Maybe shoplifting.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
So in the book the author does talk about how she
was getting accused ofshoplifting, but I didn't know
she actually did it.
I thought, from what I haveread, it sounded like people
were just trying to get her introuble just because she was
Lizzie Borden.
I mean she may or may not havea history of stealing things
like streetcar tickets Rightright, Because there was that
(26:53):
robbery in the home that I thinkAndrew thought was happening
with one of his girls.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Which is why he locked the doors in the house.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And the jewelry and the money.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I didn't even reconnect that, that's actually
that's a good point.
Because that earlier theft, Iwas always thinking of putting
something inside.
I want some streetcar ticketsso I can have movement.
I want some cash to be able tomove around, but I never
reconnected.
Maybe it was just like a thrill.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
So she may have had a disorder which I can't think of
the name of the disorder rightnow, where you just Cliptoe.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Cliptoe maniac.
Thank you, Rob.
I don't know if that's theofficial.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Strip from our producer Cliptoe maniac.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Thanks, Rob.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
I mean there's a lot of different things.
One, she could have totally hitlike kleptomania, like she
could have just like wanted tosteal things.
Two, she could be completelyinnocent and people were just
like that is Lizzie Borden.
And we want to create a storyin the Providence Journal Three,
she could be on a rush, whichis kind of kleptomania.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Or she could have been bored.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Maybe she needed some excitement.
Yeah, see if I can get caught.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
I got away the first time, but murder just stealing
art, I mean, you know it'sinteresting, like the cases.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
I've done that.
There's been a pattern withwomen stealing things because
more Murray was stealing things.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I was just thinking the same thing and she did it
for yeah, she's gonna have themoney.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Yeah, if you haven't heard that episode.
It's episode one.
Go listen, Subscribe and like.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, and then the uncle was on the streetcar
during the murders with the sixpriests, so I wonder why those
streetcar tickets were stolen.
A little too convenient, it wasall really suss though with him
.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Like he remembered too many details for like I
can't remember what I didyesterday.
And you're like, yes, I didthis and it was this streetcar
number and this conductor withthe number on his hat and there
were this many people.
That seems really suspicious.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
That sounds like someone who needs an alibi.
Right exactly, You're amazing.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Exactly so this I am so excited about because I'm
such a nerd.
So cool fact.
I love cool facts.
Remember Robinson, who was oneof her lawyers, yes, and was
also a principal atChick-A-B-High?
Yes, come to find out.
In 1866, robinson founded afirm that is located on Main
Street in Springfield and theresits in a locked cabinet the
(29:23):
Lizzie Bordenfile.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
So it's like down the street, let's go.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Seriously, she's so close Like I just want to get a
job there for a couple of days,just be like, hey, you know, can
you open that cabinet overthere?
Take a look, see.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Is it Markey Salamone ?
No, no, it's not.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
But the author of this book actually interviewed
someone about it.
So since Robinson left it inthe firm's hands, they are still
bound by client confidentiality.
Because the other lawyer hadhis files at home.
So his family just kind of sentit to the Historical Society.
But since they're still withinthe law's hands, they can't do
(30:01):
it.
I mean they could destroy them,but the guy's like why would I
do that?
This is history.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
When does that expire ?
Does attorney-client privilege?
Speaker 1 (30:10):
expire?
It doesn't, according to thisbook.
It doesn't.
It's like a time capsule.
So I wanted to read anotherquote.
Like Robinson Donovan's seniorpartner, jeffrey McCormick, who
learned about the file when hearrived at the firm in 1977,
said it would be abhorrent todispose of something as such
historic value.
So there in Springfield,massachusetts, locked in a
(30:33):
five-door filing cabinet, thefile languishes More than 125
years after Lizzie boardedgloved hand and Robinson's arm
walked out of the new Bedfordcourtroom of Free Woman.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
I need to know, I need to see that box.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Right, isn't that crazy.
When I read that I was on cloudnine, I thought that was the
coolest piece of informationI've gotten.
I want to get into somehauntings and I want to tell our
wicked wanders out there.
If you want to follow alongwith what I'm talking about,
it's actually on the LizzieBorden House website and you go
(31:06):
into the about tab and then yougo to hauntings and they
actually have like a littlestory with either a picture or a
video.
So I just I think Jonathan andJess, you both have them up, so
you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I'm on it.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Excellent.
Okay, so the first one iscalled haunting in the dining
room and is actually a video.
So it says on eight seven 22,.
Two guests staying at theLizzie Borden House in Fall
River Massachusetts had achilling, unexplainable
experience before the nightlyghost hunt.
Vicki and her daughter Emily,from Pennsylvania were exploring
(31:41):
a first floor of the house in acloset door, unlatched, and
slowly began to open by itselfjust after the lights went out
on the guests.
The two guests were completelyflabbergasted but now have one
of the best ghost stories totell their friends.
So I watched it and I just like, like, like creak open and the
mom just like slams it shut.
It freaks her out so bad.
I don't necessarily know if itwas a ghost, I don't know.
(32:06):
It just looked like an old doorswinging open.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
But creaky old house.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah Bad hinges.
Yeah, they actually showed itat the house, like the tour
guide, so I don't know ifthey'll do that when you guys go
, but they what?
They showed this video at thehouse, oh really.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
They're very proud of the open pantry.
Not to put shame on the housewe're about to see tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
This one actually really creeped me out.
So it's a picture of a familymember.
Is that Lizzie in that picture?
Can anyone tell me?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Oh, this one here yeah.
No, that's not Lizzie.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
It's a family member, right?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
So the story goes obviously related, but I mean
they have the same Bad shouldersyeah Her shoulders aren't very
broad, so I don't think it'sLizzie.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
So this gentleman, aaron, was in the basement on
the extended part of the housetour in October of 2022, when
these photos were snappedShortly before this.
Aaron remembers feeling verycold upstairs while getting
spikes on his EMF detector.
The photos are unedited and yousee Aaron's reflection taking
the photo, so you see this redshirt kind of right there.
However, one features an eeriereflection of what appears to be
(33:20):
a woman.
This coincides with many of thereports of guests and staff who
have also felt the presence ofa woman in the basement, but
nothing this discernible hasever been captured before.
I looked at this.
It actually freaked me out,because you can plainly see a
woman on the right hand side,her left shoulder.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Let's see here on her left shoulder.
Yeah, it's not very yeah Likefacing.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Do you see it?
No, is it lower?
So it's the right side, but herleft shoulder.
Can I say something from adifferent perspective?
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
So I've worked in historical homes as a docent or
a.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
That's right.
Tell the house that you were inBoston.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Oh, so I've worked in a few.
I've worked with the GibsonHouse in Boston, which is a
fabulous 19th century row housein Back Bay Preserved in what
they call Victorian amber I mean, this sounds like a commercial.
They are not a sponsor but theyshould be and basically it has
not been updated since they lastinstalled electricity in the 19
(34:25):
teens.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
And I have felt poltergeist activity there, like
I have heard voices, I haveseen things and I have heard
they have a wonderful backstaircase.
This should be a whole separateepisode and we should actually
go there.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
It could totally make that happen.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
Oh, I could totally make that happen.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
It's an amazing home in Back Bay.
It really is.
It's extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
When and where.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Producer Rob was so freaked out by the presence of
the fair.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Poor Rob.
It also was Halloween time, soI was freaked out.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
And then I've worked for the trustees of reservations
, which is an amazing historicalorganization in Massachusetts
that preserves land inhistorical homes.
They've worked with MissionHouse and NomeCake, which is
aMission House, is a 18thcentury house in Stockbridge and
NomeCake is a 19th centurymansion in Stockbridge.
I've worked for the StephenHopkins house, which is a 17th
(35:20):
century into 18th century homeof one of the signers of the
Declaration of Independence inRhode Island.
So there's a lot that I've seenand I've seen poltergeist
activity in most of these, butit's always by people who want
to be there Like they love, tothis home where they had
wonderful times there and theywant to express their activity.
(35:41):
It's not Elizabeth showing upher shoulder in the reflection
of a photo of a distant boardingfamily member in the house
where she may or may not havekilled her stepmother.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
So I'm just a little bit skeptical there, I don't
think it's Elizabeth, though,because I totally, 100% agree
with you.
Why the hell would she stillwant to be there?
Because I think she's atMaplecroft.
I agree this is Abby Because Iknow so.
Kindred Spirits is one of myfavorite shows and Jess me and
you when she's the Amy Pruittwho is a?
fabulous paranormal investigatorand she even says she's like
(36:17):
it's just Abby and Andrew here.
There's Elizabeth is atMaplecroft, like why would she
want to hang out on SecondStreet that she hated so much?
That makes no sense.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
I'm so glad she said that because I totally agree
with that.
Yeah, I 100% agree.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I think that looks like a pirate.
The woman looks like a pirate,Like the white just over her
shoulder.
Looks like a pirate wearingsunglasses to me.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Well, I guess wanderers you'll have to find
out for yourselves.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Is it Lizzie Borden?
Is it a pirate?
Is it the stepmother who knowsyou should do?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
an Instagram poll.
Yes, I was just going to saythat That'd be perfect.
Be like and you'll understandwhen you listen to this week's
episode.
The next one is titled Andrew'sface in the dining room
question mark.
While on a house tour, lorisnapped this photo in the dining
room and unknowingly capturedthe spooky image of what appears
to be a face staring back ather.
(37:09):
Even more creepy is that theface looks eerily familiar.
Perhaps Mr Andrew JacksonBorden himself?
It's difficult to tell forcertain, but we'll let you
compare the images yourself.
So there's a couple that youcan see.
They circled and they did likea side by side of Andrew's face.
I think it's looking forsomething in the light.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, I think.
To me it does look like a face,but it could be a flash of
shadows and light.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yeah, I don't think it's much of anything.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Because even if I was murdered in a house like that I
might haunt around the couchwhere I was murdered, but also
considering that I had beenpoisoned probably twice from
Badminton and something else Imay not want to hang around the
dining room.
Maybe I'd be salty about it,but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
The next one that I really liked is the shadow
figure in the parlor.
Stephanie and her friends Chrisand Chrissy shared enough
forgettable experience in thefront parlor of the Lizzie
Borden house.
Chris she'll, laying on thecouch reportedly asked the
spirit of Mr Borden about hisreputation as a penny pincher
shortly before this photo wassnapped.
When Stephanie later reviewedthe photos, she could not
(38:15):
believe what was captured.
A shadow figure appears to beentering the room on the left
side of the photo.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Okay, that's probably more realistic for me.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
The shadow figure.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
He was like I'm not a pinchy pincher.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
I'm kind of curious, so I'm looking at this now.
You see that this gentleman hasdecided to be in the position
that Andrew Borden was in whenhe died.
Do you think that could be themurderer?
Yes, that would be more clear.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
What a great idea.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Honestly.
But the murder has womanlyfeatures in the face though, but
the height of a man, I don'tknow.
What do the shoulders look like.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
It looked a little sloped.
I think it's the ankle.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I'm wondering that he was like I'm here for the penny
pincher.
I wonder if anyone's asked ifJohn Morris is there because
everyone wants to talk to Abbyor Andrew, because anyone tried
talking to John Morris.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
He'd probably be tied to the place regardless of
where he died.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
And what about?
Do you guys believe in residualenergy?
This is a very traumatic eventand maybe just going through the
motions of the murder, therepetition yes.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
We also have to consider, and the way I kind of
understand it is that we know tosay you're cooking something
right and you're using a woodenspoon.
The wooden spoon heats up alittle bit.
It can conducts energy in itsown way, how scissors are built
of wood and metal they conductenergy, they hold energy.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
I'm not surprised if some sort of weird energy stays
in the place that is so dramaticas you were saying Absolutely
yeah, guys.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
I think that's that yes.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
That's my favorite.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yep, absolutely my favorite so far.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
The person over the shoulder.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
I can't wait until to hear back after your tour.
I'm so excited Because there'sthis part in the basement that
they try to work up and have youtake a picture of it.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
And I called BS on it and he's like I probably will
be posting some pictures to it,please do, and I know that
Jonathan said that he would takepictures of me at certain
places on our spooky trip.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Oh, totally yes.
So group photo with Elizabeththe cemetery or something at
Mabelcroft.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
See if the pirate shows in the back of your
pictures.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
I just think an important thing is, especially
entering these homes that haveso much history and dark history
like this, is just to berespectful.
Respectful, yeah, I think that,like I bring up Amy Brony again
, but I love how she'srespectful and she tries to get
the facts right.
You're not going in there likeI know you did it, leslie Like
look what you did and just likelike interrogate them and say
mean things.
Just go in there respectfully,like hey, I'm just going to come
(41:03):
out, hang out for a minute,don't mind, even if you don't
believe it.
I think, just respecting thespace, I agree what you need to
go.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
So there was another funny story when I went to the
Lizzie Boardhouse is afterwardsI think everyone was supposed to
go outside but they went backinto the living room and I was
in the hallway because I don'tlike being in crowds in small
places and as I walked by, thelamp in the hallway it like
(41:32):
turned on, oh, oh.
So I'm like, well, that'sinteresting.
And the tour guide was talkingto the other people in the room.
I'm like, hey, quick question.
He's like, yeah, lamp, a motionlamp.
He goes.
Yes, it is Mike.
Okay, but I was nonchalant,mike, I Thought it was funny.
(42:03):
I love it.
Not as funny as the cocaine,okay.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Or teats, yes, we get to hear more about teats next
week.
Yes, I'm so excited for theteats it's in my secret parts.
Well, thank you both and John,and thank you so much for being
on this episode.
I hope to see you in episodesupcoming.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Thank you both so much.
This was an honor to be able tojoin Wicked Wanderings.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
You made us so smart, so anytime.
Well you are smart.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Interesting, and this was just such a joy.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Thank you, thanks for coming.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Thanks for listening today.
The show wouldn't be possiblewithout our amazing producer and
editor, rob Fitzpatrick, whoworks tirelessly behind the
scenes to bring you the bestcontent and a special thanks to
Tyga sound prod for providingthe captivating intro music.
Cinematic intro 24 and ofcourse, we can't forget the
hauntingly beautiful outro music, rhino's theme, composed by
(42:56):
Kevin McLeod if you enjoyedtoday's episode, make sure to
leave a rating and review.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
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Speaker 1 (43:06):
Your feedback means the world to us Also be sure to
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Speaker 2 (43:17):
Thank you so much for listening and being part of our
Wicked Wanderings community.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
We appreciate each and every one of you Stay
curious, keep exploring andalways remember to keep on
wandering.
Since you guys are herelistening, you must be a fan of
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Speaker 3 (43:35):
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Speaker 2 (43:45):
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(44:07):
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Speaker 1 (44:10):
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will say your name and like yourfavorite Haunting place, murder
mystery or serial killer youlove to go.
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