April 30, 2025 • 35 mins
The devastating story of the Stayner family reveals how differently trauma can manifest within the same family, as one brother became a hero for escaping his kidnapper while the other became the notorious Yosemite Park Killer. This tale of kidnapping, heroism, neglect, and murder demonstrates the long-lasting impact of childhood trauma and the critical importance of mental health support.
• Steven Stayner was kidnapped at age 7 and held captive for seven years by Kenneth Parnell
• After Parnell kidnapped 5-year-old Timmy White, Steven heroically escaped with Timmy and brought him to safety
• Steven's return brought media frenzy and national attention, while his brother Carrie faded into the background
• Steven struggled to reintegrate into normal life, facing bullying and turning to substance abuse before establishing a family
• A TV movie about Steven's life called "I Know My First Name is Steven" drew 40 million viewers
• Steven died in a hit-and-run motorcycle accident the night before the Emmy Awards
• Cary Stayner developed mental health issues that went largely untreated
• Working at Cedar Lodge near Yosemite, Cary murdered three tourists in February 1999
• Cary's crimes revealed a pattern of sociopathic behavior, including sexual assault and taunting communications with police
• The Stayner family had a history of intergenerational trauma, including abuse, alcoholism, and mental illness
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Wicked Wanderings is hosted by Hannah & Courtney and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick. Music by Sascha Ende.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Courtney (00:00):
Today on my way here, I was behind a car that had a
bumper sticker that says do youfollow Jesus that closely?
And then the light turned green.
And I'm telling Pizza man onthe phone about how that's what
it says, and the light turnsgreen and they're sitting there.
They're sitting there, so Ihonked the horn.
And do you know that thesepeople sat there and honked the
horn back at me Really and thendrove away.
(00:21):
Pizza man was like did theyjust honk back at you for
honking because they sat throughmost of the green light?
I was like yeah, and then Iyelled Jesus, take the wheel.
Which?
Rob Fitz (00:34):
was not totally appropriate, but Okay.
Hannah (00:46):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (00:52):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
Hannah (00:58):
This is Wicked Wanderings, hi Courtney, hi
Hannah and hi Rob.
(01:19):
Thank you for joining us today.
Hello, I think the Wanderersthought you went missing.
Well, who do you think does allthe producing in the back end?
Kenzie, yeah, kenzie's verygood producer.
Okay, first of all, this was arabbit hole and I know, courtney
, you love, I love a good rabbithole.
This was.
This was amazing.
I had so much fun with this one.
I want to talk about theyosemite park killer.
(01:41):
Okay, do you know about theyosemite park killer?
Just the name.
Do you rob know about theyosemite Park Killer?
Okay, do you know about theYosemite Park Killer?
Just the name.
Do you, rob, know about theYosemite Park Killer?
Rob Fitz (01:47):
No.
Hannah (01:48):
Okay, but I feel I cannot talk about the case until
I talk about who StephenStainer is.
Okay.
Do you guys know about StephenStainer?
Rob Fitz (01:57):
Negative.
Hannah (01:58):
Not at all.
This is gonna be great.
Okay, I probably should say adisclaimer.
Guys like some of this can getreally.
Rob Fitz (02:04):
Graphic.
Hannah (02:04):
Yeah, so Graphic advisory.
Beware Stephen was the miraclecase of the decade, but I think
he was a person with the worstluck ever.
On December 4th 1972,seven-year-old Stephen Stainer
was waiting for his mom to pickhim up after school.
She got delayed, as moms do,and she got to the school late,
(02:25):
but Stephen was not thereanymore.
She figured probably oh, hewent off with some friends or
he'll come back later.
A couple hours go by and theyend up deciding to call the
police because he didn't comehome.
Apparently, stephen wasapproached by a man named
Kenneth Parnell and another mannamed Murphy, which I don't know
where this guy Murphy comesinto it, because I feel like he
was never mentioned in anythingelse.
(02:46):
Just say two men at this point,but Parnell is a big part of
this.
He asked Stephen if his momwould want to donate to his
church and he said yeah, his momprobably would like to do so.
So Cass was like great, we'llgive you a ride home and we'll
talk to her.
Rob Fitz (02:58):
Do you know what kind of church?
No, I do not.
No, I do not.
Hannah (03:01):
Oh, okay, but since there was no church, Guess it
didn't matter.
Courtney (03:06):
Guess it didn't matter .
Hannah (03:07):
They passed Stephen's street and they said oh, we'll
ask your parents if you can staythe night.
Okay, seems creepy, very creepy.
Next night came same thing.
Oh, let's call your parents seeif you can stay another night
with us.
Next thing Stephen knowsParnell says that he went to
court and got custody of Stephenand his parents didn't want him
anymore.
Soon Stephen's name got changedto Dennis Parnell and meanwhile
(03:29):
Stephen's family was trying notto lose hope that their brother
and son would return home.
Stephen's mom would not leavethe house for two to three years
unless someone was there toanswer the phone or the door.
So right now, in terms of crime, we are looking at a kidnapping
right.
Steven started calling parnelldad, he would go to school, he
made friends and he continuedhis life, which is just so
(03:50):
absolutely creepy to me.
And again, just so you guysknow, I didn't really say where
this was this is near yosemiteso that part I figured because
of the way that it was related.
Yeah, friends were actuallyinterviewed and said that they
obviously knew him as dennDennis and that he would have,
like dirty fingernails, holes inhis shoes.
Parnell would let him smoke.
So like probably a DCF case ifit was now.
(04:12):
But they just said he's a quiet, subdued kid and that he hung
out with them and just seemed tobe kind of quiet.
Rob Fitz (04:18):
How old was he?
Hannah (04:19):
So he was kidnapped when he was seven.
I'll tell you in a second howlong he was there, for Parnell
would move them to like adifferent area, because he would
figure out that he's underspeculation of something.
Right, there's something offabout this.
Where did this kid come from?
As Stephen got older, parnelltried to get Stephen involved in
helping him pick up boys oh boy, but Stephen wanted nothing to
do with it.
Parnell did end up getting anew boy, new boy.
(04:41):
So basically, stephen came homeand there's this five-year-old
child there and Parnell's likegreat, you got a little brother
now.
And the child's name is TimmyWhite, five years old, from
Ukiah, california.
Stephen did not want the samethings to happen to Timmy that
happened to him so during anight and, mind you, this is
seven years later.
This kid's been stuck withParnell for seven years.
(05:01):
Yeah, so he's 14, 15 at thatpoint.
During the night he hitchhikedwith timmy from point arena to
ukiah, which I believe was aboutlike 30 miles, during a rainy,
dark night and steven found thepolice station with timmy and
said I think my name is steveninteresting right, imagine being
the police officer standingthere, like okay, first of all,
what do you mean?
you think your name is steven,yeah, march 1st 1980, cops show
(05:26):
up during the early hours of thestay in her household and said
steven is in ukiah.
So of course the parents arelike, oh my god, we got to go
there now and he's like no, likewe have to talk to him first.
This is a crime scene, we haveto take care of this first.
But on march 2nd 1980, stevenis reunited with his family.
Hundreds of people, including amedia frenzy, is watching this
reunion unfold.
I can't imagine trying toreintegrate, being into a family
(05:47):
you haven't seen in seven years.
Right, they're calling you adifferent name.
All of a sudden you have allthese siblings you haven't seen
in years.
Your parents are probably allover you.
Courtney (05:55):
And the media.
What an intimate, uncomfortablesituation.
I understand why the mediamakes a big spectacle of that.
You know a success story whichwe don't often get, sadly.
But I can't imagine howuncomfortable it is, just from
what you were saying and thenbeing like magnified yeah,
especially since I'm sure forseven years parnell was telling
him to stay out of the limelight.
Right, right so and it's apersonality trait now, he was
quiet.
Hannah (06:15):
He didn't really enjoy being being a spectacle so he
returned to his old room uh, oldfriends, possibly, and a new
school, because he's now in highschool and there was no privacy
for Stephen for a while.
The media would just find himat school, stalk him, ask him
questions.
Again, schools were differentback in the early 80s, where you
could just basically walk inand they would just find him and
start asking him questions.
(06:36):
Therapy was brought up, whichhe probably should have done,
but Stephen's dad was against it.
He didn't like psychologists orpsychiatrists.
He said, like basically, keepyour problems to yourself.
Stephen said he didn't want toeither, but I'm not sure if that
was more of the influence ofhis father or something he just
didn't want to talk about.
(07:05):
We're both, yeah, other Carriewas quote, unquote off.
According to one of the sisters, Carrie was feeling neglected
and not feeling important.
There was actually part of astory where they were all
sitting down to dinner andStephen's like there's a spot
missing and the parents are likeoh right, Carrie, we need to
get a place for him.
So like totally kind offorgotten about and wasn't good.
Rob Fitz (07:20):
How many siblings did Stephen have?
Hannah (07:22):
So there was Stephen, carrie and two sisters and maybe
one more brother.
There was five of them.
So of course there has to becourt and there were charges
against Parnell.
Surprisingly, this got me sobad.
Parnell was convicted inabduction prior to taking
Stephen.
Oh oh, that's good.
And he served a little time forit and obviously got out.
Served a little time for it,wow, but it's only going to get
(07:46):
worse.
Talk of abuse came up, butStephen denied it happening.
Then the police found Polaroidsof Stephen naked and they had
to call Stephen and have himtalk about it.
June 8th 1981, the judge gavethe toughest sentence he could
for the kidnapping of Timmy,which was seven years.
I'm sorry Kidnapping thetoughest the judge could do is
(08:07):
seven years.
Oh, but it gets worse.
Oh, december 1st 1981, steventestified against parnell and
confirmed the sodomy and oralsex acts on the stand.
Parnell would receive another84 months.
But since parnell already gotthe max for timmy, because of
the current statues in the stateit had to be only 20 months.
Courtney (08:27):
So to clarify he kidnapped Timmy and he kidnapped
Stephen, but prior to both ofthose he had kidnapped yes, he
had some kind of kidnappingcharge.
Yes, so this is a man who'skidnapped at bare minimum three
times.
Hannah (08:39):
Yes.
Courtney (08:40):
And they're like well, we've already given him the
maximum, so shruggy emoji,because he clearly learned his
lesson the last time.
Oh yeah, totally did.
He just doubled it and did itagain.
Yep, major douche canoe.
Hannah (08:50):
Yep major douche canoe.
Because of Stephen testifyingto the abuse, he started to be
bullied.
Of course Kids are mean.
They started calling him nameslike the F word.
Oh, I don't mind the say online.
The principal was interviewedand I'm going to quote what he
said because it pissed me off.
Courtney (09:07):
And here I am quoting.
Hannah (09:07):
We have a good bunch of kids at our school and therefore
I see no problem with it all inthe immediate future.
Of course steve's going to havea hard time not having girls
chase him down the street andthis kind of thing, but other
than that there's no problem huhwhat the flying fuck history.
Courtney (09:24):
Children, education and sexuality related issues
really bother me.
Hannah (09:29):
Yep so, as you can imagine, steven kind of spiraled
.
He started drinking heavy, heindulged in some pot, took pills
, he wrecked some cars and thenhe just started having sex with
basically whatever girl wouldwant to come at him and of
course, I think he was justtrying to prove something to
people, which is just to himself.
Courtney (09:47):
It seems like maybe like he was afraid that people
were thinking he was oneparticular way.
And when you're a child andsomebody forces things, on you
that doesn't make you anythingother than a victim.
Rob Fitz (09:56):
Yeah, so by this time he's what?
Hannah (09:58):
16, 17 I mean depending on 15.
After high school he ended upmeeting his future wife, judy
Edmonton.
Stephen was 19.
She was 16.
But hey, it was the 80s.
They ended up having twochildren together and everyone
said he was a good dad, whichwas like, oh, like, finally like
stuff's coming together for him.
(10:18):
There was like interviews Iwatched and you just you see
that he was trying right, he wastrying to build up his life
again and Hollywood ended upapproaching him about making a
movie about his experience, andso he said yes, even though his
mom didn't want him to, becauseshe's like I think too much
media has been on him for years.
I think he needs a break.
But then he's like well, I kindof need the money, so I got kids
(10:39):
to raise.
It ended up being aired in twoparts on May 22nd and 23rd 1989.
And it was called I Know myFirst Name is Steven.
Nearly 40 million viewers tunedin, making it NBC's highest
rated miniseries in five years.
Wow.
The Emmys were approaching andpeople were hoping to
acknowledge him in a speech ofsome sort, if they got one.
Steven passed away the nightbefore the Emmys in a hit and
(11:03):
run while he was on hismotorcycle.
Courtney (11:04):
Wow, oh my gosh.
Hannah (11:06):
Yeah, this kid has the worst luck I think I've ever
seen.
And there's a great documentaryI watched that put some clips
in there.
It was called Captive Audience.
It's a three-parter.
I thought they did a great jobwith it.
Remember that crappy sentencethat Parnell got, which one In
2004,.
He was arrested again fortrying to purchase a child
(11:29):
Purchase.
Rob Fitz (11:30):
I'm sorry.
Courtney (11:31):
I guess maybe they should have been.
This is like one of those timeswhere you have to be very
specific about what you mean.
You don't steal a child.
Now he's trying to purchase achild, so he must have learned
that you can't steal them.
So now he's trying to do otherthings.
Hannah (11:44):
But don't worry, the court system learned their
lesson this time, because he wassentenced to life in prison but
something about the exchange ofmoney, yes, but he died in 2008
, so he only served four years.
Did somebody kill him?
Not that I know I wouldn't beshocked.
I don't know why I want to sayit was cancer, but I could be
wrong karma this did not stopthe curse that seems to be on
(12:06):
the family.
Oh, remember carrie.
Yeah, he was working at thecedar lodge near yosemite
national park.
The curse that seems to be onthe Stainer family oh, remember
Carrie.
Yeah, he was working at theCedar Lodge near Yosemite
National Park.
When three people go missing.
Courtney (12:16):
I was wondering where this connection was going to
come into play.
Hannah (12:22):
While doing research on Carrie, I found some interesting
background information on theStainer family as a whole, minus
the whole thing with their songetting kidnapped and then
showing up again and having alife and then dying.
The mother was physically andemotionally abused when she was
younger, so she was not a veryaffectionate mother.
Interesting though, the fatherwas a little too affectionate
and was said to be molesting hisdaughters.
Oh my god.
(12:42):
So I don't know how much truththat is, because I did read a
book on the yosemite Killer.
It's called the Yosemite ParkKiller by Jack Rosewood.
It's super tiny, it's like ahundred page read.
You know sometimes with howsmall these books are.
I don't know how accurateinformation is, but that is what
one person said when divinginto the family tree of the
(13:02):
Stainers, like going backgenerations, there's histories
of alcoholism, mental illness,sexual abuse and all other
abuses that you could think of.
Courtney (13:11):
So this family is not what you would call I don't want
to say wholesome but like, likethat white picket fence, yeah,
all-american, traditional forthat time, kind of family.
They struggled, they were onthe struggle bus.
Hannah (13:23):
Carrie was born on August 12, 1961, and at three
was diagnosed withtrichotillomania, which, for
those of you that do not knowit's a compulsive behavior
pulling out your hair.
Carrie seemed to always havesome mental health problems that
were never addressed.
He would fantasize aboutkilling the checkout clerk when
he was seven he was molested byhis uncle and when steven
returned home the parents forgotto set a place for him at the
(13:46):
table, which I told told youguys about that story.
So this kid's basically forgotabout.
When you see media coverage ofSteven, you just see Carrie like
in the background, justominously, with like just a
really sad face, like his kindof like furrowed brow.
There's one point where if youwatch the media frenzy, he just
like walks away and goes.
He's just like.
(14:07):
I really don't want anything todo with this anymore.
One positive thing in his lifewas drawing and the outdoors.
He loved Yosemite.
It was his happy place.
Fun fact he had a Bigfootsighting, oh man, and was a huge
advocate for the belief inBigfoot, which I don't know.
I just thought that tickled mepink it's not Ted Bundy, but at
21 minutes and 39 seconds.
We're about before the killingstarted he was in therapy and
(14:32):
they wanted him to start grouptherapy but he was like nope,
I'm done and just started towork at the cedar lodge.
February 1999, three women gomissing a mom, carol sund, her
daughter julie, and anargentinian exchange student
that they had, sylvina peloso.
They were visiting the area forsightseeing and checking out
colleges.
The next day they were supposedthe area for sightseeing and
checking out colleges.
The next day they were supposedto leave for arizona and meet
(14:52):
up with carol's husband.
They were supposed to meet atan airport, probably connecting
flight travel to arizonatogether, but they never showed
and he thought that was a littlestrange.
Like this isn't like my wife,she's very particular.
I know that she would have theflights, the flight plan, maybe
it got delayed so he decided tokeep going on to arizona without
them.
Interesting.
I thought that was interesting.
(15:12):
Oh, but this is alsointeresting.
Courtney (15:14):
He got to arizona, played around a golf and then
decided to check on things whichlike I think there was a
different time back then, so weweren't always like used to
being connected the way that weare now, but I still think
that's odd.
Hannah (15:27):
It's odd, yeah, I mean like did you need something to
take your mind off of it, butlike there were so many phones
you passed.
Courtney (15:32):
Yeah, getting off the plane and going to go right of
golf, right, yeah.
Hannah (15:38):
He called the car rental place and they said the car was
never returned.
He called the lodge next andthey said they never returned
the room key.
The room was checked and itdidn't look like.
You know, mass murder happenedthere, but they some strange
things that they noticed wherethere was a pillow and a blanket
missing and the bag of theirsouvenirs was still there, which
, if you're gonna spend money onthat shit right, so they hadn't
(15:59):
checked out.
Rob Fitz (15:59):
It's kind of right I've taken a pillow from a hotel
before I would never take apillow from a hotel.
Courtney (16:05):
I think I have any right heads have been on that.
Rob Fitz (16:08):
This was when I was a kid.
Courtney (16:10):
Oh, before you thought about germs on the pillow?
Rob Fitz (16:12):
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah (16:13):
Okay, so where's the car Right?
That wasn't there.
Local police got involved andalso, interestingly, the FBI did
, because of the exchange unitthat was involved.
That makes sense.
Yeah, they end up finding thecar off the road in the woods,
burned, with two bodies thatlater get identified as carol's
son and sylvina peloso sowhere's the other, where's your?
(16:34):
Right.
So the police get a letter inthe mail and it said quote we
had fun with this one end.
Quote who's we I will get tothe we okay with a map showing
where the body is.
The police were excited aboutthis.
They said great, we know wherethe body is going to be and we
have dna on this letter.
The police will later learn.
Carrie paid someone fivedollars to spit into a cup so he
(16:56):
could put the spit on theenvelope wow yeah, and of course
he changed his handwriting andhe also said we, so that would
throw people off more than oneperson.
They follow the map and they didfind julie propped against a
tree, decaying.
Obviously she'd been there acouple days.
Soon, another woman is founddead, named joey ruth armstrong,
(17:17):
who was 26.
It is said carrie approachedher and started talking about
his bigfoot sightings cool, seebigfoot sightings, don't talk to
people about those.
When he determined she wasalone, he got her in the house
at gunpoint and bound and gaggedher.
He told her originally that hewas going to only rob her, but
it started getting dark and hebrought her back outside to his
car.
(17:38):
I think this girl obviously hada sixth sense because she's like
what the fuck is this about?
He started to drive but Joeywas not going quietly so she
dived out of the window of hiscar and began to run into the
woods.
Carrie gave chase, finallycaught up to her and sliced her
throat and ended up decapitatingher head.
But without her struggle thepolice would not have caught him
(17:59):
because of all the dna that shehad gotten in the car on him
under his nails, because of thestruggle she had left.
So really she probably savedlots of people, because carrie
did say that if he wasn'tstopped he probably would have
kept killing Definitely a sickindividual yes.
One of the most interestingthings to me is apparently
Carrie asked for a movie to bemade about his life.
Courtney (18:22):
That's a big attention-seeking thing, Nope
definitely not Jealous of hisbrother.
Hannah (18:28):
I'm torn, though, about this, because you can see why he
would right you thought, whatmy brother did.
He was a big hero and he had agreat life.
I'm going to give you guys abetter tale.
But also he was a man withsecrets and not someone who
liked the attention andlimelight, because you see him
leaving media frenzies.
When his brother came home, Inthe book I read he claimed to
(18:54):
want the movie to give theproceeds to the victim's
families.
Courtney (18:56):
But this was not said in the documentary, just that he
wanted a movie like he askedall the attention.
Hannah (18:58):
Yeah, he asked the media , so I don't know even the
letter.
Like we know, this from.
Courtney (19:00):
You know, cousin mark is an episode.
Yep, the letters where they'retaunting the police and they're
telling them hey, this is whereit's going to be.
They want that recognition andthey want them to find it,
because without that there's nomedia coverage.
All that work they did was fornothing, nothing, right.
Hannah (19:13):
So I am going to actually tell you what actually
happened with the three women,and supposedly this is what
happened.
The night of the crime, stainerknocked on their door at 11 pm
and he had actually said that hewent knocking around to
different rooms that had no onein it, just so they could hear
like maintenance on everyone'sdoor.
so they knew like, oh okay,they're just coming around to
check something calculated, verycalculated very calculated
(19:36):
stater knocked on their door andhe asked to be led into the
room to check a leak.
And I guess they didn't want tolet him in and he's like okay,
well then I'll have to go to thefront desk and have you move to
a different room.
And they're like fine, we'll,we'll just let you in.
He goes straight to thebathroom and after being in
there a bit he merges with a gun, he bounds and gags them and
ends up putting the two girls inthe bathroom while he strangles
(19:56):
the mom to death.
So while he's strangling Caroland this is something he said
later and I'm quoting I didn'trealize how hard it is to
strangle a person.
Stainer said late in his tapedconfession it's not easy.
I had very little feeling.
It was like performing a task.
Courtney (20:13):
Hmm, yeah, there's some sociopathy going on there?
Yes, very much so, and you knowhow I feel about sociopaths.
Hannah (20:18):
Yes, he puts Carol's body into the rental car in the
trunk and went back to the girlsand I quote he dragged Sun's
body outside and placed it inthe trunk of the rented Pontiac
Grand Prix, then went back intothe motel room where the two
girls waited.
He cut the girls' clothes offand tried to get them to perform
sex acts on each other.
But Sylvina could not stopcrying, stainer said.
He became so irritated by hersobs that he took her into the
(20:40):
bathroom and strangled her whileshe knelt in the bathtub,
Although at one point Stainersaid that none of his victims
had been sexually assaulted.
He then raped Julie both in thefamily's motel room and the
room next door, toward the endjust forcing his flaccid penis
into her mouth, gagging her ashe struggled to regain his
erection.
So he then put Sylvina in thetrunk where Carol's body is, put
their stuff into the car so itlooks like they left, and then
(21:01):
put Julie in the passenger seat.
He took her duct tape off andmade her have small talk that's
what you imagine.
Courtney (21:09):
I think that would be the worst part of the whole
thing.
Like you just did all thesethings to me, you forced me to
do all this.
I watched you kill people andnow you're making me have to sit
here and talk to you like Ijust let me be fiery, mad, or
yeah, or sad, or upset, scaredeven okay, here I am gonna quote
again.
Hannah (21:25):
she was a very likable girl.
He said she was very calm.
I told her I wished I couldkeep her.
Instead he he raped her again,told her I loved her and slit
her throat, driving the knife sodeeply into her throat that he
almost severed her head.
And then it just goes on to saythat he hid Julie's body in the
brush and everything.
Then this motherfucker hauled acab and asked the passenger do
(21:48):
you believe in Bigfoot?
To his driver Huh, Definitelyhe's a peculiar guy, Definitely
hitting all the sociopath checkthe passenger.
Courtney (21:53):
Do you believe in bigfoot to his driver?
Huh, definitely your guy.
Definitely hitting all the likesociopath checkpoints yeah can
do something, be so cold andjust not consider the other
person's feelings.
Rob Fitz (22:01):
No empathy at all there I'd like to know more
about that conversation, likedid the taxi driver say yes?
Did the taxi driver say no?
Courtney (22:08):
I feel like if you say yes, then you're next at knife
point.
So hopefully he he was likenever heard of him.
Hannah (22:12):
So it did say that the cab driver, Jenny Paul, later
remembered her passenger whoasked to be driven to Yosemite
Lodge, where his young brother'sabductor had once worked, and
the strange conversation theyhad along the way.
And that's when he asked do youbelieve in Bigfoot?
When he might as well have beentalking about the boogeyman.
Rob Fitz (22:30):
Hmm, so the taxi driver said no.
Courtney (22:33):
And it was a female taxi driver.
Hannah (22:35):
Which is interesting because you would have expected
by his pattern that you wouldhave taken that opportunity and
there were some other peoplethat said, oh, I remember being
at the hot tub at the lodge andhim being in the hot tub with me
and striking up conversationsand I was like why is this guy
so uncomfy?
Like that sixth sense, right,we talk about, we're like you're
coming off as a really nicedude, very handsome, but why are
(22:56):
you still giving me the creeps?
Sometimes you just know,sometimes you know.
In 2000, he got life withoutparole for the death of Joey.
July 2002, he went to trial forthe three women.
He received the death penaltyand is still awaiting execution
at San Quentin State Prison.
And that, my friends, is thestory of the Stainer family and
the Yosemite Park Killer.
There's so much to that, somuch, so much.
(23:20):
I agree.
Rob Fitz (23:21):
Did you pick this story?
Because it has a lot of Bigfoottalk in it.
Hannah (23:24):
No, I didn't know anything about the Bigfoot until
I started reading.
Courtney (23:28):
And then it really just sold it to her.
Yeah, bigfoot.
Hannah (23:33):
I knew I, and then it really just sold it to her yeah,
bigfoot, I knew I was gonna dothe yosemite park killer right.
And then I was on tiktok, asone does, and the girl was
saying, oh my gosh, you guysneed to watch this documentary
that's titled captive audienceon hulu.
So I started watching it and Iwas like, wait a minute, wait a
minute.
This is the stater family, thisis the same stater family that
carries it.
And I was like, oh my god, thisis a rabbit hole.
So that's how it ended upcoming along.
Courtney (23:54):
It's definitely.
It has my wheels turningbecause you're looking at was he
was carrie, always that way.
Were the things that happenedto his brother part of the lack
of attention?
What was the home?
Life like when his mom was likewouldn't leave the house.
Yep, what was that abuse likebetween his father and him?
Right?
Hannah (24:09):
and there's different perspectives, but sounds like
the dad was like just totallybeside himself when steven went
missing and wasn't payingattention to anybody and he was
just distraught all the timewhich makes sense so it's like
it seemed like the family wasfinally trying to find some
peace while it was happening andthen steven ends up showing up
and he's this huge hero and theyhave people outside their house
(24:30):
all the time wanting to knoweverything.
But then, you know, thingsstart getting back to normal
again and then steven dies.
Now he's this huge hero andthey have people outside their
house all the time wanting toknow everything.
But then, you know, thingsstart getting back to normal
again and then steven dies.
Now he's back into the media.
He's all the attention's backon him again.
So I feel bad for steven fromwhat basically I know, because
it sounded like this kid hadsuch a bad run and he finally
seemed to find some sort ofhappiness with a wife and kids,
and then he fucking dies and,like one of the worst ways I
(24:53):
could think of, didn't have afighting chance.
I don't know.
It's like could harry blamesteven and what happened with
the way he was?
Probably, but I don't thinkthat's all it.
Courtney (25:03):
I think there's a mental health issue in this
family oh definitely a lot oftrauma and it's a complicated
family like, even if you look atlike okay, what happened to
steven?
steven was the victim ofkidnapping and abuse and sexual
abuse and so then for him tobecome the perpetrator who did
those things, essentially tosteven to other people right,
(25:24):
not as long term as steven'ssituation.
I always come back to thatbehavioristic, like it's,
attention seeking behavior, andyou have some people who will
find negative attention just asreinforcing as positive
attention.
Carrie knew there was no way hewas going to get that attention
in a positive light compared toStephen, and then Stephen died
and he was glorified anywaysbecause of everything that
(25:44):
happened.
So really the only way he stooda chance at getting any kind of
recognition that same scale wasto do something bad.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Chance at getting any kind ofrecognition that same scale was
to do something bad.
Hannah (25:52):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It just boggles my mind too,where he was kind of had this
obsession with the daughter andsaying I loved her, I wanted to
keep her.
Was he searching for love butnot knowing how to do it
appropriately?
And there was also when he wasin prison he had a pen pal that
(26:12):
was a married woman, but shesaid that no, it was nothing
like that.
I just wanted to talk to himbut then he was like, oh, your
husband's so lucky to have youlike, please contact me anytime
you want.
He's lacking.
He's lacking things.
He's trying to fill a hole andhe's just not doing it the right
way.
So he boggles my mind.
I feel like he's an interestingone.
(26:34):
He did try to plead insanitybut didn't work.
Courtney (26:38):
If only his family had believed in therapy and things
and they had some kind ofdiagnosis on him maybe.
I mean he did.
Hannah (26:43):
He probably isn't saying he did do a little therapy, but
it sounded like when theywanted to up the ante a little
bit and do group, he was likefuck this, I'm leaving.
I don know.
I feel like you could dissectthis way more.
Courtney (26:54):
You could, I would be really interested to hear, like
from a psychological perspectiveor doing research into when
somebody I mean obviously and wesee it a lot at work where,
like, one child is affected orimpacted by autism and the other
child is not that attentiondifference, that care difference
, the exceptions that happen?
I is not that attentiondifference, that care difference
, the exceptions that happen.
I can imagine that when onechild goes through neglect or
(27:15):
abuse or something even worselike kidnapping, I can imagine
the same kind of phenomenonhappens.
Hannah (27:25):
Do they say at all where all the other siblings ended up
In the documentary?
One of the siblings, a sister,was interviewed, and then they
also had Stephen's daughter andson that are now grown up, which
they're like around betweenyour age and my age right now.
Rob Fitz (27:39):
That makes sense.
Hannah (27:40):
Yeah, it was like the beginning of the 90s and then
they had Carrie and Stephen'smom on there, which was
interesting to watch her Becausethere was something she's like.
I'm not talking about that.
Courtney (27:49):
We love a queen with boundaries.
Hannah (27:51):
I think that was about it for family.
Oh and uh.
Rob Fitz (27:54):
Steven's wife I was, she was curious about that she
was on there as well.
Hannah (27:59):
It was interesting.
I mean, the sister definitelytalked about how she kind of
prodded steven for details andthen when she did she really
regretted it because then shecouldn't get it out of her head.
Yeah, it's this family.
I just can't imagine like youhave this brother and then he
died, and then you have thisother brother and you lose him
too in a way, yeah it's.
Courtney (28:17):
It's hard how I feel, like some families are I don't
want to say boring, because thatmakes this sound like it's
exciting in a positive way.
But some families have all thisstuff that happens and you
can't even believe it, and thensome are just boring.
There's just nothing there.
I mean, I guess boring is agood thing in this situation,
but that poor family, they wentthrough a lot yeah, you got
these families like everythinghappens to them everything
(28:39):
somewhere in the world's timingand planning.
Hannah (28:41):
You guys were just set to have this go on well, that
might be like I don't want tothink of the romanovs like, but
they, they all got killed.
It's just like.
Why does this stuff happen tolike to one family?
It's?
Courtney (28:53):
it's just crazy it also makes you wonder if there's
like more to it.
Yeah, you know like a hit andrun.
Well, or was the personconnected?
You hate to say that and I'msure they looked into that,
given who he was, but I don'tknow.
Maybe it's too much time.
And true crime.
I'm always connected.
Rob Fitz (29:10):
Don't trust anyone right you know some families are
just cursed.
Courtney (29:14):
I mean, look at the kennedys oh the kennedys is
something I would love to diveinto.
Hannah (29:18):
You need like a 19 part episode oh god yeah I bet
there's no bigfoot in that onethough hey, he does creep up
where you least expect he does.
Courtney (29:26):
I really didn't look for him.
Hannah (29:27):
He always comes back.
Rob Fitz (29:29):
well, there's a uh a in New York City, in Central
Park.
What you never heard about thatone.
So yeah, rfk, he hit a bear inNew York and they were going
down to New York City and thenhe had a reservation at some
restaurant and he decided thathe no longer wanted to keep the
(29:50):
bear because he was going to eatthe bear, you know, because you
can consume bear.
And so he dumped it in New YorkCity and everyone's like oh,
how is this bear here?
Where did this bear come from?
And then, years later, recently, he confessed to leaving this
bear in Central Park.
You've never heard that.
Hannah (30:08):
And he's in office.
Good fucking Lord yeah.
Rob Fitz (30:11):
And.
I guess it wasn't a person'sbody, it was just a bear I mean
it could have been a bigfootbody, but no, it was a bear, are
we?
Courtney (30:30):
pick a card, any card.
Michelle Dower On December 10th2013,.
The victim was found stabbedseveral times at the
intersection of Broadway andCongress Avenue in Chelsea.
If you have any info about thiscase, please call
1-855-MA-SOLVE.
Hannah (30:49):
What's her name again?
Courtney (30:50):
Michelle Dower, d-a-u-w-e-r.
And what's the card?
We are the six of spades.
Rob Fitz (30:58):
Are we sure they're spades?
Courtney (31:02):
Yes, I'm not the one who has issues with the clue.
You know, spade, we call aspade.
Rob Fitz (31:08):
a spade Because it looks like a shovel.
Courtney (31:11):
And I just know that it's a spade a spade because it
looks like a shovel and I justknow that it's a spade, in what
town was this again?
Chelsea ah the lighting in hereis so dark that it's in a very
thin red and I'm like what doesthat?
Rob Fitz (31:22):
say it says chelsea, chelsea.
Hence why we don't do a videopodcast, because it's too dark
in here yeah, we don't like thebig light.
Hannah's vigorously shaking herhead no, as if anyone on the
podcast can see her well, thankyou, hannah, thank you.
Courtney (31:36):
We do love a good rabbit hole and I feel like
we've had quite a few rabbitholes in a row.
On this one side note, I willupdate everybody from the camp
windigo episode that I did.
I did not get an email backfrom the individual that we
emailed from the blog post.
um, I did check again thismorning.
We tried.
You know what, though?
That email could be 10, 20years old.
(31:57):
We don't actually know.
So if we do get an email back,I'll be sure to update everybody
, but for right now the updateis no email reply back.
Hannah (32:04):
Well, thank you for trying.
Courtney (32:05):
Yeah, and if this man is listening, I won't say your
name because it was part of youremail address.
Hannah (32:11):
And we should have some collab coming up, we do.
Courtney (32:14):
We have quite a few people.
We did a little bit of adifferent marketing push,
changed some of our backendadministrative stuff and we're
excited we have some groups thatwould like to collaborate with
us, woohoo.
So some new faces, excellent,or voices, sure Face voices In
the flesh, in the virtual flesh.
Hannah (32:31):
That was for you, cousin .
Work.
All right, guys.
Thank you, bye, bye, wanderers.
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked wanderings is hosted byme, hannah, and co-hosted by me,
Courtney, and it's produced byRob Fitzpatrick music by Sasha.
And if you enjoyed today'sepisode, don't forget to leave a
rating and review and be sureto follow on all socials.
(32:52):
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
wandering.
Today on my way here, I was behind a car that had a
bumper sticker that says do youfollow Jesus that closely?
And then the light turned green.
And I'm telling Pizza man onthe phone about how that's what
it says, and the light turnsgreen and they're sitting there.
They're sitting there, so Ihonked the horn.
And do you know that thesepeople sat there and honked the
horn back at me Really and thendrove away.
(00:21):
Pizza man was like did theyjust honk back at you for
honking because they sat throughmost of the green light?
I was like yeah, and then Iyelled Jesus, take the wheel.
Which?
Rob Fitz (00:34):
was not totally appropriate, but Okay.
Hannah (00:46):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (00:52):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
Hannah (00:58):
This is Wicked Wanderings, hi Courtney, hi
Hannah and hi Rob.
(01:19):
Thank you for joining us today.
Hello, I think the Wanderersthought you went missing.
Well, who do you think does allthe producing in the back end?
Kenzie, yeah, kenzie's verygood producer.
Okay, first of all, this was arabbit hole and I know, courtney
, you love, I love a good rabbithole.
This was.
This was amazing.
I had so much fun with this one.
I want to talk about theyosemite park killer.
(01:41):
Okay, do you know about theyosemite park killer?
Just the name.
Do you rob know about theyosemite Park Killer?
Okay, do you know about theYosemite Park Killer?
Just the name.
Do you, rob, know about theYosemite Park Killer?
Rob Fitz (01:47):
No.
Hannah (01:48):
Okay, but I feel I cannot talk about the case until
I talk about who StephenStainer is.
Okay.
Do you guys know about StephenStainer?
Rob Fitz (01:57):
Negative.
Hannah (01:58):
Not at all.
This is gonna be great.
Okay, I probably should say adisclaimer.
Guys like some of this can getreally.
Rob Fitz (02:04):
Graphic.
Hannah (02:04):
Yeah, so Graphic advisory.
Beware Stephen was the miraclecase of the decade, but I think
he was a person with the worstluck ever.
On December 4th 1972,seven-year-old Stephen Stainer
was waiting for his mom to pickhim up after school.
She got delayed, as moms do,and she got to the school late,
(02:25):
but Stephen was not thereanymore.
She figured probably oh, hewent off with some friends or
he'll come back later.
A couple hours go by and theyend up deciding to call the
police because he didn't comehome.
Apparently, stephen wasapproached by a man named
Kenneth Parnell and another mannamed Murphy, which I don't know
where this guy Murphy comesinto it, because I feel like he
was never mentioned in anythingelse.
(02:46):
Just say two men at this point,but Parnell is a big part of
this.
He asked Stephen if his momwould want to donate to his
church and he said yeah, his momprobably would like to do so.
So Cass was like great, we'llgive you a ride home and we'll
talk to her.
Rob Fitz (02:58):
Do you know what kind of church?
No, I do not.
No, I do not.
Hannah (03:01):
Oh, okay, but since there was no church, Guess it
didn't matter.
Courtney (03:06):
Guess it didn't matter .
Hannah (03:07):
They passed Stephen's street and they said oh, we'll
ask your parents if you can staythe night.
Okay, seems creepy, very creepy.
Next night came same thing.
Oh, let's call your parents seeif you can stay another night
with us.
Next thing Stephen knowsParnell says that he went to
court and got custody of Stephenand his parents didn't want him
anymore.
Soon Stephen's name got changedto Dennis Parnell and meanwhile
(03:29):
Stephen's family was trying notto lose hope that their brother
and son would return home.
Stephen's mom would not leavethe house for two to three years
unless someone was there toanswer the phone or the door.
So right now, in terms of crime, we are looking at a kidnapping
right.
Steven started calling parnelldad, he would go to school, he
made friends and he continuedhis life, which is just so
(03:50):
absolutely creepy to me.
And again, just so you guysknow, I didn't really say where
this was this is near yosemiteso that part I figured because
of the way that it was related.
Yeah, friends were actuallyinterviewed and said that they
obviously knew him as dennDennis and that he would have,
like dirty fingernails, holes inhis shoes.
Parnell would let him smoke.
So like probably a DCF case ifit was now.
(04:12):
But they just said he's a quiet, subdued kid and that he hung
out with them and just seemed tobe kind of quiet.
Rob Fitz (04:18):
How old was he?
Hannah (04:19):
So he was kidnapped when he was seven.
I'll tell you in a second howlong he was there, for Parnell
would move them to like adifferent area, because he would
figure out that he's underspeculation of something.
Right, there's something offabout this.
Where did this kid come from?
As Stephen got older, parnelltried to get Stephen involved in
helping him pick up boys oh boy, but Stephen wanted nothing to
do with it.
Parnell did end up getting anew boy, new boy.
(04:41):
So basically, stephen came homeand there's this five-year-old
child there and Parnell's likegreat, you got a little brother
now.
And the child's name is TimmyWhite, five years old, from
Ukiah, california.
Stephen did not want the samethings to happen to Timmy that
happened to him so during anight and, mind you, this is
seven years later.
This kid's been stuck withParnell for seven years.
(05:01):
Yeah, so he's 14, 15 at thatpoint.
During the night he hitchhikedwith timmy from point arena to
ukiah, which I believe was aboutlike 30 miles, during a rainy,
dark night and steven found thepolice station with timmy and
said I think my name is steveninteresting right, imagine being
the police officer standingthere, like okay, first of all,
what do you mean?
you think your name is steven,yeah, march 1st 1980, cops show
(05:26):
up during the early hours of thestay in her household and said
steven is in ukiah.
So of course the parents arelike, oh my god, we got to go
there now and he's like no, likewe have to talk to him first.
This is a crime scene, we haveto take care of this first.
But on march 2nd 1980, stevenis reunited with his family.
Hundreds of people, including amedia frenzy, is watching this
reunion unfold.
I can't imagine trying toreintegrate, being into a family
(05:47):
you haven't seen in seven years.
Right, they're calling you adifferent name.
All of a sudden you have allthese siblings you haven't seen
in years.
Your parents are probably allover you.
Courtney (05:55):
And the media.
What an intimate, uncomfortablesituation.
I understand why the mediamakes a big spectacle of that.
You know a success story whichwe don't often get, sadly.
But I can't imagine howuncomfortable it is, just from
what you were saying and thenbeing like magnified yeah,
especially since I'm sure forseven years parnell was telling
him to stay out of the limelight.
Right, right so and it's apersonality trait now, he was
quiet.
Hannah (06:15):
He didn't really enjoy being being a spectacle so he
returned to his old room uh, oldfriends, possibly, and a new
school, because he's now in highschool and there was no privacy
for Stephen for a while.
The media would just find himat school, stalk him, ask him
questions.
Again, schools were differentback in the early 80s, where you
could just basically walk inand they would just find him and
start asking him questions.
(06:36):
Therapy was brought up, whichhe probably should have done,
but Stephen's dad was against it.
He didn't like psychologists orpsychiatrists.
He said, like basically, keepyour problems to yourself.
Stephen said he didn't want toeither, but I'm not sure if that
was more of the influence ofhis father or something he just
didn't want to talk about.
(07:05):
We're both, yeah, other Carriewas quote, unquote off.
According to one of the sisters, Carrie was feeling neglected
and not feeling important.
There was actually part of astory where they were all
sitting down to dinner andStephen's like there's a spot
missing and the parents are likeoh right, Carrie, we need to
get a place for him.
So like totally kind offorgotten about and wasn't good.
Rob Fitz (07:20):
How many siblings did Stephen have?
Hannah (07:22):
So there was Stephen, carrie and two sisters and maybe
one more brother.
There was five of them.
So of course there has to becourt and there were charges
against Parnell.
Surprisingly, this got me sobad.
Parnell was convicted inabduction prior to taking
Stephen.
Oh oh, that's good.
And he served a little time forit and obviously got out.
Served a little time for it,wow, but it's only going to get
(07:46):
worse.
Talk of abuse came up, butStephen denied it happening.
Then the police found Polaroidsof Stephen naked and they had
to call Stephen and have himtalk about it.
June 8th 1981, the judge gavethe toughest sentence he could
for the kidnapping of Timmy,which was seven years.
I'm sorry Kidnapping thetoughest the judge could do is
(08:07):
seven years.
Oh, but it gets worse.
Oh, december 1st 1981, steventestified against parnell and
confirmed the sodomy and oralsex acts on the stand.
Parnell would receive another84 months.
But since parnell already gotthe max for timmy, because of
the current statues in the stateit had to be only 20 months.
Courtney (08:27):
So to clarify he kidnapped Timmy and he kidnapped
Stephen, but prior to both ofthose he had kidnapped yes, he
had some kind of kidnappingcharge.
Yes, so this is a man who'skidnapped at bare minimum three
times.
Hannah (08:39):
Yes.
Courtney (08:40):
And they're like well, we've already given him the
maximum, so shruggy emoji,because he clearly learned his
lesson the last time.
Oh yeah, totally did.
He just doubled it and did itagain.
Yep, major douche canoe.
Hannah (08:50):
Yep major douche canoe.
Because of Stephen testifyingto the abuse, he started to be
bullied.
Of course Kids are mean.
They started calling him nameslike the F word.
Oh, I don't mind the say online.
The principal was interviewedand I'm going to quote what he
said because it pissed me off.
Courtney (09:07):
And here I am quoting.
Hannah (09:07):
We have a good bunch of kids at our school and therefore
I see no problem with it all inthe immediate future.
Of course steve's going to havea hard time not having girls
chase him down the street andthis kind of thing, but other
than that there's no problem huhwhat the flying fuck history.
Courtney (09:24):
Children, education and sexuality related issues
really bother me.
Hannah (09:29):
Yep so, as you can imagine, steven kind of spiraled
.
He started drinking heavy, heindulged in some pot, took pills
, he wrecked some cars and thenhe just started having sex with
basically whatever girl wouldwant to come at him and of
course, I think he was justtrying to prove something to
people, which is just to himself.
Courtney (09:47):
It seems like maybe like he was afraid that people
were thinking he was oneparticular way.
And when you're a child andsomebody forces things, on you
that doesn't make you anythingother than a victim.
Rob Fitz (09:56):
Yeah, so by this time he's what?
Hannah (09:58):
16, 17 I mean depending on 15.
After high school he ended upmeeting his future wife, judy
Edmonton.
Stephen was 19.
She was 16.
But hey, it was the 80s.
They ended up having twochildren together and everyone
said he was a good dad, whichwas like, oh, like, finally like
stuff's coming together for him.
(10:18):
There was like interviews Iwatched and you just you see
that he was trying right, he wastrying to build up his life
again and Hollywood ended upapproaching him about making a
movie about his experience, andso he said yes, even though his
mom didn't want him to, becauseshe's like I think too much
media has been on him for years.
I think he needs a break.
But then he's like well, I kindof need the money, so I got kids
(10:39):
to raise.
It ended up being aired in twoparts on May 22nd and 23rd 1989.
And it was called I Know myFirst Name is Steven.
Nearly 40 million viewers tunedin, making it NBC's highest
rated miniseries in five years.
Wow.
The Emmys were approaching andpeople were hoping to
acknowledge him in a speech ofsome sort, if they got one.
Steven passed away the nightbefore the Emmys in a hit and
(11:03):
run while he was on hismotorcycle.
Courtney (11:04):
Wow, oh my gosh.
Hannah (11:06):
Yeah, this kid has the worst luck I think I've ever
seen.
And there's a great documentaryI watched that put some clips
in there.
It was called Captive Audience.
It's a three-parter.
I thought they did a great jobwith it.
Remember that crappy sentencethat Parnell got, which one In
2004,.
He was arrested again fortrying to purchase a child
(11:29):
Purchase.
Rob Fitz (11:30):
I'm sorry.
Courtney (11:31):
I guess maybe they should have been.
This is like one of those timeswhere you have to be very
specific about what you mean.
You don't steal a child.
Now he's trying to purchase achild, so he must have learned
that you can't steal them.
So now he's trying to do otherthings.
Hannah (11:44):
But don't worry, the court system learned their
lesson this time, because he wassentenced to life in prison but
something about the exchange ofmoney, yes, but he died in 2008
, so he only served four years.
Did somebody kill him?
Not that I know I wouldn't beshocked.
I don't know why I want to sayit was cancer, but I could be
wrong karma this did not stopthe curse that seems to be on
(12:06):
the family.
Oh, remember carrie.
Yeah, he was working at thecedar lodge near yosemite
national park.
The curse that seems to be onthe Stainer family oh, remember
Carrie.
Yeah, he was working at theCedar Lodge near Yosemite
National Park.
When three people go missing.
Courtney (12:16):
I was wondering where this connection was going to
come into play.
Hannah (12:22):
While doing research on Carrie, I found some interesting
background information on theStainer family as a whole, minus
the whole thing with their songetting kidnapped and then
showing up again and having alife and then dying.
The mother was physically andemotionally abused when she was
younger, so she was not a veryaffectionate mother.
Interesting though, the fatherwas a little too affectionate
and was said to be molesting hisdaughters.
Oh my god.
(12:42):
So I don't know how much truththat is, because I did read a
book on the yosemite Killer.
It's called the Yosemite ParkKiller by Jack Rosewood.
It's super tiny, it's like ahundred page read.
You know sometimes with howsmall these books are.
I don't know how accurateinformation is, but that is what
one person said when divinginto the family tree of the
(13:02):
Stainers, like going backgenerations, there's histories
of alcoholism, mental illness,sexual abuse and all other
abuses that you could think of.
Courtney (13:11):
So this family is not what you would call I don't want
to say wholesome but like, likethat white picket fence, yeah,
all-american, traditional forthat time, kind of family.
They struggled, they were onthe struggle bus.
Hannah (13:23):
Carrie was born on August 12, 1961, and at three
was diagnosed withtrichotillomania, which, for
those of you that do not knowit's a compulsive behavior
pulling out your hair.
Carrie seemed to always havesome mental health problems that
were never addressed.
He would fantasize aboutkilling the checkout clerk when
he was seven he was molested byhis uncle and when steven
returned home the parents forgotto set a place for him at the
(13:46):
table, which I told told youguys about that story.
So this kid's basically forgotabout.
When you see media coverage ofSteven, you just see Carrie like
in the background, justominously, with like just a
really sad face, like his kindof like furrowed brow.
There's one point where if youwatch the media frenzy, he just
like walks away and goes.
He's just like.
(14:07):
I really don't want anything todo with this anymore.
One positive thing in his lifewas drawing and the outdoors.
He loved Yosemite.
It was his happy place.
Fun fact he had a Bigfootsighting, oh man, and was a huge
advocate for the belief inBigfoot, which I don't know.
I just thought that tickled mepink it's not Ted Bundy, but at
21 minutes and 39 seconds.
We're about before the killingstarted he was in therapy and
(14:32):
they wanted him to start grouptherapy but he was like nope,
I'm done and just started towork at the cedar lodge.
February 1999, three women gomissing a mom, carol sund, her
daughter julie, and anargentinian exchange student
that they had, sylvina peloso.
They were visiting the area forsightseeing and checking out
colleges.
The next day they were supposedthe area for sightseeing and
checking out colleges.
The next day they were supposedto leave for arizona and meet
(14:52):
up with carol's husband.
They were supposed to meet atan airport, probably connecting
flight travel to arizonatogether, but they never showed
and he thought that was a littlestrange.
Like this isn't like my wife,she's very particular.
I know that she would have theflights, the flight plan, maybe
it got delayed so he decided tokeep going on to arizona without
them.
Interesting.
I thought that was interesting.
(15:12):
Oh, but this is alsointeresting.
Courtney (15:14):
He got to arizona, played around a golf and then
decided to check on things whichlike I think there was a
different time back then, so weweren't always like used to
being connected the way that weare now, but I still think
that's odd.
Hannah (15:27):
It's odd, yeah, I mean like did you need something to
take your mind off of it, butlike there were so many phones
you passed.
Courtney (15:32):
Yeah, getting off the plane and going to go right of
golf, right, yeah.
Hannah (15:38):
He called the car rental place and they said the car was
never returned.
He called the lodge next andthey said they never returned
the room key.
The room was checked and itdidn't look like.
You know, mass murder happenedthere, but they some strange
things that they noticed wherethere was a pillow and a blanket
missing and the bag of theirsouvenirs was still there, which
, if you're gonna spend money onthat shit right, so they hadn't
(15:59):
checked out.
Rob Fitz (15:59):
It's kind of right I've taken a pillow from a hotel
before I would never take apillow from a hotel.
Courtney (16:05):
I think I have any right heads have been on that.
Rob Fitz (16:08):
This was when I was a kid.
Courtney (16:10):
Oh, before you thought about germs on the pillow?
Rob Fitz (16:12):
Yeah, exactly.
Hannah (16:13):
Okay, so where's the car Right?
That wasn't there.
Local police got involved andalso, interestingly, the FBI did
, because of the exchange unitthat was involved.
That makes sense.
Yeah, they end up finding thecar off the road in the woods,
burned, with two bodies thatlater get identified as carol's
son and sylvina peloso sowhere's the other, where's your?
(16:34):
Right.
So the police get a letter inthe mail and it said quote we
had fun with this one end.
Quote who's we I will get tothe we okay with a map showing
where the body is.
The police were excited aboutthis.
They said great, we know wherethe body is going to be and we
have dna on this letter.
The police will later learn.
Carrie paid someone fivedollars to spit into a cup so he
(16:56):
could put the spit on theenvelope wow yeah, and of course
he changed his handwriting andhe also said we, so that would
throw people off more than oneperson.
They follow the map and they didfind julie propped against a
tree, decaying.
Obviously she'd been there acouple days.
Soon, another woman is founddead, named joey ruth armstrong,
(17:17):
who was 26.
It is said carrie approachedher and started talking about
his bigfoot sightings cool, seebigfoot sightings, don't talk to
people about those.
When he determined she wasalone, he got her in the house
at gunpoint and bound and gaggedher.
He told her originally that hewas going to only rob her, but
it started getting dark and hebrought her back outside to his
car.
(17:38):
I think this girl obviously hada sixth sense because she's like
what the fuck is this about?
He started to drive but Joeywas not going quietly so she
dived out of the window of hiscar and began to run into the
woods.
Carrie gave chase, finallycaught up to her and sliced her
throat and ended up decapitatingher head.
But without her struggle thepolice would not have caught him
(17:59):
because of all the dna that shehad gotten in the car on him
under his nails, because of thestruggle she had left.
So really she probably savedlots of people, because carrie
did say that if he wasn'tstopped he probably would have
kept killing Definitely a sickindividual yes.
One of the most interestingthings to me is apparently
Carrie asked for a movie to bemade about his life.
Courtney (18:22):
That's a big attention-seeking thing, Nope
definitely not Jealous of hisbrother.
Hannah (18:28):
I'm torn, though, about this, because you can see why he
would right you thought, whatmy brother did.
He was a big hero and he had agreat life.
I'm going to give you guys abetter tale.
But also he was a man withsecrets and not someone who
liked the attention andlimelight, because you see him
leaving media frenzies.
When his brother came home, Inthe book I read he claimed to
(18:54):
want the movie to give theproceeds to the victim's
families.
Courtney (18:56):
But this was not said in the documentary, just that he
wanted a movie like he askedall the attention.
Hannah (18:58):
Yeah, he asked the media , so I don't know even the
letter.
Like we know, this from.
Courtney (19:00):
You know, cousin mark is an episode.
Yep, the letters where they'retaunting the police and they're
telling them hey, this is whereit's going to be.
They want that recognition andthey want them to find it,
because without that there's nomedia coverage.
All that work they did was fornothing, nothing, right.
Hannah (19:13):
So I am going to actually tell you what actually
happened with the three women,and supposedly this is what
happened.
The night of the crime, stainerknocked on their door at 11 pm
and he had actually said that hewent knocking around to
different rooms that had no onein it, just so they could hear
like maintenance on everyone'sdoor.
so they knew like, oh okay,they're just coming around to
check something calculated, verycalculated very calculated
(19:36):
stater knocked on their door andhe asked to be led into the
room to check a leak.
And I guess they didn't want tolet him in and he's like okay,
well then I'll have to go to thefront desk and have you move to
a different room.
And they're like fine, we'll,we'll just let you in.
He goes straight to thebathroom and after being in
there a bit he merges with a gun, he bounds and gags them and
ends up putting the two girls inthe bathroom while he strangles
(19:56):
the mom to death.
So while he's strangling Caroland this is something he said
later and I'm quoting I didn'trealize how hard it is to
strangle a person.
Stainer said late in his tapedconfession it's not easy.
I had very little feeling.
It was like performing a task.
Courtney (20:13):
Hmm, yeah, there's some sociopathy going on there?
Yes, very much so, and you knowhow I feel about sociopaths.
Hannah (20:18):
Yes, he puts Carol's body into the rental car in the
trunk and went back to the girlsand I quote he dragged Sun's
body outside and placed it inthe trunk of the rented Pontiac
Grand Prix, then went back intothe motel room where the two
girls waited.
He cut the girls' clothes offand tried to get them to perform
sex acts on each other.
But Sylvina could not stopcrying, stainer said.
He became so irritated by hersobs that he took her into the
(20:40):
bathroom and strangled her whileshe knelt in the bathtub,
Although at one point Stainersaid that none of his victims
had been sexually assaulted.
He then raped Julie both in thefamily's motel room and the
room next door, toward the endjust forcing his flaccid penis
into her mouth, gagging her ashe struggled to regain his
erection.
So he then put Sylvina in thetrunk where Carol's body is, put
their stuff into the car so itlooks like they left, and then
(21:01):
put Julie in the passenger seat.
He took her duct tape off andmade her have small talk that's
what you imagine.
Courtney (21:09):
I think that would be the worst part of the whole
thing.
Like you just did all thesethings to me, you forced me to
do all this.
I watched you kill people andnow you're making me have to sit
here and talk to you like Ijust let me be fiery, mad, or
yeah, or sad, or upset, scaredeven okay, here I am gonna quote
again.
Hannah (21:25):
she was a very likable girl.
He said she was very calm.
I told her I wished I couldkeep her.
Instead he he raped her again,told her I loved her and slit
her throat, driving the knife sodeeply into her throat that he
almost severed her head.
And then it just goes on to saythat he hid Julie's body in the
brush and everything.
Then this motherfucker hauled acab and asked the passenger do
(21:48):
you believe in Bigfoot?
To his driver Huh, Definitelyhe's a peculiar guy, Definitely
hitting all the sociopath checkthe passenger.
Courtney (21:53):
Do you believe in bigfoot to his driver?
Huh, definitely your guy.
Definitely hitting all the likesociopath checkpoints yeah can
do something, be so cold andjust not consider the other
person's feelings.
Rob Fitz (22:01):
No empathy at all there I'd like to know more
about that conversation, likedid the taxi driver say yes?
Did the taxi driver say no?
Courtney (22:08):
I feel like if you say yes, then you're next at knife
point.
So hopefully he he was likenever heard of him.
Hannah (22:12):
So it did say that the cab driver, Jenny Paul, later
remembered her passenger whoasked to be driven to Yosemite
Lodge, where his young brother'sabductor had once worked, and
the strange conversation theyhad along the way.
And that's when he asked do youbelieve in Bigfoot?
When he might as well have beentalking about the boogeyman.
Rob Fitz (22:30):
Hmm, so the taxi driver said no.
Courtney (22:33):
And it was a female taxi driver.
Hannah (22:35):
Which is interesting because you would have expected
by his pattern that you wouldhave taken that opportunity and
there were some other peoplethat said, oh, I remember being
at the hot tub at the lodge andhim being in the hot tub with me
and striking up conversationsand I was like why is this guy
so uncomfy?
Like that sixth sense, right,we talk about, we're like you're
coming off as a really nicedude, very handsome, but why are
(22:56):
you still giving me the creeps?
Sometimes you just know,sometimes you know.
In 2000, he got life withoutparole for the death of Joey.
July 2002, he went to trial forthe three women.
He received the death penaltyand is still awaiting execution
at San Quentin State Prison.
And that, my friends, is thestory of the Stainer family and
the Yosemite Park Killer.
There's so much to that, somuch, so much.
(23:20):
I agree.
Rob Fitz (23:21):
Did you pick this story?
Because it has a lot of Bigfoottalk in it.
Hannah (23:24):
No, I didn't know anything about the Bigfoot until
I started reading.
Courtney (23:28):
And then it really just sold it to her.
Yeah, bigfoot.
Hannah (23:33):
I knew I, and then it really just sold it to her yeah,
bigfoot, I knew I was gonna dothe yosemite park killer right.
And then I was on tiktok, asone does, and the girl was
saying, oh my gosh, you guysneed to watch this documentary
that's titled captive audienceon hulu.
So I started watching it and Iwas like, wait a minute, wait a
minute.
This is the stater family, thisis the same stater family that
carries it.
And I was like, oh my god, thisis a rabbit hole.
So that's how it ended upcoming along.
Courtney (23:54):
It's definitely.
It has my wheels turningbecause you're looking at was he
was carrie, always that way.
Were the things that happenedto his brother part of the lack
of attention?
What was the home?
Life like when his mom was likewouldn't leave the house.
Yep, what was that abuse likebetween his father and him?
Right?
Hannah (24:09):
and there's different perspectives, but sounds like
the dad was like just totallybeside himself when steven went
missing and wasn't payingattention to anybody and he was
just distraught all the timewhich makes sense so it's like
it seemed like the family wasfinally trying to find some
peace while it was happening andthen steven ends up showing up
and he's this huge hero and theyhave people outside their house
(24:30):
all the time wanting to knoweverything.
But then, you know, thingsstart getting back to normal
again and then steven dies.
Now he's this huge hero andthey have people outside their
house all the time wanting toknow everything.
But then, you know, thingsstart getting back to normal
again and then steven dies.
Now he's back into the media.
He's all the attention's backon him again.
So I feel bad for steven fromwhat basically I know, because
it sounded like this kid hadsuch a bad run and he finally
seemed to find some sort ofhappiness with a wife and kids,
and then he fucking dies and,like one of the worst ways I
(24:53):
could think of, didn't have afighting chance.
I don't know.
It's like could harry blamesteven and what happened with
the way he was?
Probably, but I don't thinkthat's all it.
Courtney (25:03):
I think there's a mental health issue in this
family oh definitely a lot oftrauma and it's a complicated
family like, even if you look atlike okay, what happened to
steven?
steven was the victim ofkidnapping and abuse and sexual
abuse and so then for him tobecome the perpetrator who did
those things, essentially tosteven to other people right,
(25:24):
not as long term as steven'ssituation.
I always come back to thatbehavioristic, like it's,
attention seeking behavior, andyou have some people who will
find negative attention just asreinforcing as positive
attention.
Carrie knew there was no way hewas going to get that attention
in a positive light compared toStephen, and then Stephen died
and he was glorified anywaysbecause of everything that
(25:44):
happened.
So really the only way he stooda chance at getting any kind of
recognition that same scale wasto do something bad.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Chance at getting any kind ofrecognition that same scale was
to do something bad.
Hannah (25:52):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It just boggles my mind too,where he was kind of had this
obsession with the daughter andsaying I loved her, I wanted to
keep her.
Was he searching for love butnot knowing how to do it
appropriately?
And there was also when he wasin prison he had a pen pal that
(26:12):
was a married woman, but shesaid that no, it was nothing
like that.
I just wanted to talk to himbut then he was like, oh, your
husband's so lucky to have youlike, please contact me anytime
you want.
He's lacking.
He's lacking things.
He's trying to fill a hole andhe's just not doing it the right
way.
So he boggles my mind.
I feel like he's an interestingone.
(26:34):
He did try to plead insanitybut didn't work.
Courtney (26:38):
If only his family had believed in therapy and things
and they had some kind ofdiagnosis on him maybe.
I mean he did.
Hannah (26:43):
He probably isn't saying he did do a little therapy, but
it sounded like when theywanted to up the ante a little
bit and do group, he was likefuck this, I'm leaving.
I don know.
I feel like you could dissectthis way more.
Courtney (26:54):
You could, I would be really interested to hear, like
from a psychological perspectiveor doing research into when
somebody I mean obviously and wesee it a lot at work where,
like, one child is affected orimpacted by autism and the other
child is not that attentiondifference, that care difference
, the exceptions that happen?
I is not that attentiondifference, that care difference
, the exceptions that happen.
I can imagine that when onechild goes through neglect or
(27:15):
abuse or something even worselike kidnapping, I can imagine
the same kind of phenomenonhappens.
Hannah (27:25):
Do they say at all where all the other siblings ended up
In the documentary?
One of the siblings, a sister,was interviewed, and then they
also had Stephen's daughter andson that are now grown up, which
they're like around betweenyour age and my age right now.
Rob Fitz (27:39):
That makes sense.
Hannah (27:40):
Yeah, it was like the beginning of the 90s and then
they had Carrie and Stephen'smom on there, which was
interesting to watch her Becausethere was something she's like.
I'm not talking about that.
Courtney (27:49):
We love a queen with boundaries.
Hannah (27:51):
I think that was about it for family.
Oh and uh.
Rob Fitz (27:54):
Steven's wife I was, she was curious about that she
was on there as well.
Hannah (27:59):
It was interesting.
I mean, the sister definitelytalked about how she kind of
prodded steven for details andthen when she did she really
regretted it because then shecouldn't get it out of her head.
Yeah, it's this family.
I just can't imagine like youhave this brother and then he
died, and then you have thisother brother and you lose him
too in a way, yeah it's.
Courtney (28:17):
It's hard how I feel, like some families are I don't
want to say boring, because thatmakes this sound like it's
exciting in a positive way.
But some families have all thisstuff that happens and you
can't even believe it, and thensome are just boring.
There's just nothing there.
I mean, I guess boring is agood thing in this situation,
but that poor family, they wentthrough a lot yeah, you got
these families like everythinghappens to them everything
(28:39):
somewhere in the world's timingand planning.
Hannah (28:41):
You guys were just set to have this go on well, that
might be like I don't want tothink of the romanovs like, but
they, they all got killed.
It's just like.
Why does this stuff happen tolike to one family?
It's?
Courtney (28:53):
it's just crazy it also makes you wonder if there's
like more to it.
Yeah, you know like a hit andrun.
Well, or was the personconnected?
You hate to say that and I'msure they looked into that,
given who he was, but I don'tknow.
Maybe it's too much time.
And true crime.
I'm always connected.
Rob Fitz (29:10):
Don't trust anyone right you know some families are
just cursed.
Courtney (29:14):
I mean, look at the kennedys oh the kennedys is
something I would love to diveinto.
Hannah (29:18):
You need like a 19 part episode oh god yeah I bet
there's no bigfoot in that onethough hey, he does creep up
where you least expect he does.
Courtney (29:26):
I really didn't look for him.
Hannah (29:27):
He always comes back.
Rob Fitz (29:29):
well, there's a uh a in New York City, in Central
Park.
What you never heard about thatone.
So yeah, rfk, he hit a bear inNew York and they were going
down to New York City and thenhe had a reservation at some
restaurant and he decided thathe no longer wanted to keep the
(29:50):
bear because he was going to eatthe bear, you know, because you
can consume bear.
And so he dumped it in New YorkCity and everyone's like oh,
how is this bear here?
Where did this bear come from?
And then, years later, recently, he confessed to leaving this
bear in Central Park.
You've never heard that.
Hannah (30:08):
And he's in office.
Good fucking Lord yeah.
Rob Fitz (30:11):
And.
I guess it wasn't a person'sbody, it was just a bear I mean
it could have been a bigfootbody, but no, it was a bear, are
we?
Courtney (30:30):
pick a card, any card.
Michelle Dower On December 10th2013,.
The victim was found stabbedseveral times at the
intersection of Broadway andCongress Avenue in Chelsea.
If you have any info about thiscase, please call
1-855-MA-SOLVE.
Hannah (30:49):
What's her name again?
Courtney (30:50):
Michelle Dower, d-a-u-w-e-r.
And what's the card?
We are the six of spades.
Rob Fitz (30:58):
Are we sure they're spades?
Courtney (31:02):
Yes, I'm not the one who has issues with the clue.
You know, spade, we call aspade.
Rob Fitz (31:08):
a spade Because it looks like a shovel.
Courtney (31:11):
And I just know that it's a spade a spade because it
looks like a shovel and I justknow that it's a spade, in what
town was this again?
Chelsea ah the lighting in hereis so dark that it's in a very
thin red and I'm like what doesthat?
Rob Fitz (31:22):
say it says chelsea, chelsea.
Hence why we don't do a videopodcast, because it's too dark
in here yeah, we don't like thebig light.
Hannah's vigorously shaking herhead no, as if anyone on the
podcast can see her well, thankyou, hannah, thank you.
Courtney (31:36):
We do love a good rabbit hole and I feel like
we've had quite a few rabbitholes in a row.
On this one side note, I willupdate everybody from the camp
windigo episode that I did.
I did not get an email backfrom the individual that we
emailed from the blog post.
um, I did check again thismorning.
We tried.
You know what, though?
That email could be 10, 20years old.
(31:57):
We don't actually know.
So if we do get an email back,I'll be sure to update everybody
, but for right now the updateis no email reply back.
Hannah (32:04):
Well, thank you for trying.
Courtney (32:05):
Yeah, and if this man is listening, I won't say your
name because it was part of youremail address.
Hannah (32:11):
And we should have some collab coming up, we do.
Courtney (32:14):
We have quite a few people.
We did a little bit of adifferent marketing push,
changed some of our backendadministrative stuff and we're
excited we have some groups thatwould like to collaborate with
us, woohoo.
So some new faces, excellent,or voices, sure Face voices In
the flesh, in the virtual flesh.
Hannah (32:31):
That was for you, cousin .
Work.
All right, guys.
Thank you, bye, bye, wanderers.
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked wanderings is hosted byme, hannah, and co-hosted by me,
Courtney, and it's produced byRob Fitzpatrick music by Sasha.
And if you enjoyed today'sepisode, don't forget to leave a
rating and review and be sureto follow on all socials.
(32:52):
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
wandering.
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