July 16, 2025 • 43 mins
Hannah explores the shocking story of Credonia Mwerinde, a female cult leader from Uganda who orchestrated the deaths of over 1,000 people in one of history's deadliest cult massacres.
• Born in 1952 to a wealthy Ugandan family with strong Catholic influence
• Early signs of sociopathic behavior included setting fire to a former lover's house
• Created "The Movement of the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God" based on alleged visions from the Virgin Mary
• Enforced strict rules including no speaking, surrendering all possessions, and rigid prayer schedules
• After failed apocalypse predictions in 1992, 1995, and 1999, followers began leaving
• In March 2000, she gathered remaining followers in "arks," then set them on fire
• Was last seen escaping into the jungle and never caught for her crimes
• Demonstrates how violent environments can normalize extreme behaviors
• Raises questions about why female cult leaders receive less attention than male counterparts
• Shows how apocalyptic beliefs can be weaponized to control vulnerable people
Please tell us which cults you'd like us to cover in future episodes by messaging us on social media!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Courtney (00:00):
So I was doing this thing the other day where I tell
myself all the time you're on abook buying ban, you can't buy
any more books.
And then I look at the shelfand I look at what's on Kindle
Unlimited and I'm like I want toread something, but it's like
when you have a menu of food infront of you for takeout options
and you're like I wantsomething but it's not here.
And that's how my TBR shelfwill never be empty.
(00:23):
Mood reader.
I am a mood reader.
Hannah (00:27):
Okay, Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (00:47):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
Hannah (01:06):
This is Wicked Wanderings.
All right, let's go.
Hi Courtney, hi Anna, how areyou?
I'm good, how are you?
I'm good, I'm swell.
So, talking about book buying,have you ever read the music?
Courtney (01:20):
I think I told you about it.
If I saw the cover, I wouldprobably be able to tell you.
I'm now looking.
Here's the problem.
Oh God, it has a you about it.
If I saw the cover, I wouldprobably be able to tell you.
I'm now looking.
Here's the problem.
Oh God, it has a sticker on it.
Hannah, you asshole.
I went through your wholebookshelf and deed did that to
them all.
I don't know how that got there, dick.
Okay, anyways, I either haveread that or it's on my TBR
shelf, because the cover looksvery familiar.
(01:41):
Okay, well.
Well, it's by t marie vandelli.
She, finally, is coming outwith another book I pre-ordered
it.
My hd carlton book box issupposed to be coming in
sometime this month.
Wow, I almost forgot all aboutit, me too.
Hannah (01:54):
She had a baby, though I saw that that's why we thought
the other book she wrote that'swhy phantom sucked.
Yeah, don't read phantom guyshd carlton and the adventure.
Courtney (02:02):
listening to this, I'm sorry.
I'm a huge hype girl.
I recommend your other booksall the time If hairy fingers
don't do anything for you, yeah.
Hairy fingers, trench coat,pinky ring.
That's all I got to say.
None of those are your vibe andyou don't want to picture Gam
Gam getting it on.
But if you like, grandpa vibesmore to you.
Some people are grandpa agedExactly, and I think the idea of
(02:24):
like a tattooed man with aPrince Albert piercing probably
would freak them out.
Just the same, leave those forthe rest of us.
You know, maybe we should savethat for our other podcast to
talk about different piercings.
We always talk about WickedWanderings After Dark, but I
feel like we should produce likebonus episodes that are video
episodes of Wicked WanderingsAfter Dark.
Oh, I'm down.
I think we should Differentcontent.
(02:45):
You never know what you'regoing to get, though.
Different strokes for differentfolks.
I didn't know where you weregoing with that.
I didn't really know either.
Sometimes I start talking andthen out comes randomness and we
just hit 100 episodes, which isreally exciting.
We did Woohoo In real time.
We're recording this the daythat we made the social media
post, so you know, like andsubscribe everybody.
(03:06):
Please.
Shameless plug and if you'relistening and you're like, but
there's only 92 episodes 91 thatwas 91 well, after they hear
this one, it'll be 92.
You gotta think about that.
See, courtney's better withmath than I am.
After you hear it, you're like,yeah, but there should be 101
episodes.
The other nine episodes are forsubscribers only.
So if you want to check thatout, subscribe, or you can just
(03:27):
continue to be missing out.
It's up to you.
Hannah (03:31):
That one's on you if you don't have fomo, then oh well I
subscribed and then my debitcard failed.
But you know what?
I have a new friend, jakeactually jake that subscribed
and then shout out jake, shoutout to jake for resubscribing.
I finally met him this weekendat a family party.
Great guy, thank you, jake,because you know you get your
card stolen sometimes, and thathappens, or it gets hacked.
So, courtney, you have noexcuse.
Courtney (03:53):
I wish everybody could .
Sometimes I forget that onpodcasts you can't see the look
on my face.
I have a very vocal face.
Yeah, I think people wouldagree about that.
So sometimes Hannah sayssomething and I'm silent because
I'm just shooting a look in herdirection.
I feel like it's likePictionary.
In that moment this feels good.
I feel like sometimes we sitdown to podcast and we're like
(04:14):
way too serious.
Today feels very relaxed.
It's obviously it's fall y'allfor us.
Oh, it's fall y'all.
We got the fall vibes going.
I'm in a hoodie and in leggingsbecause hannah keeps her house
like the arctic, which I love.
Hannah (04:33):
Um, you know, I've got my, my fall cider, cider, donut
as my drink of choice today, andwe are ready for fall.
We're still ready.
I'm still ready.
Courtney (04:36):
It's hard, I've been ready I feel like we say that,
but when I'm sitting in yourhouse, every day feels like we
got the fall-scented candlesgoing.
Everything is spooky decor.
Psa to anybody who's also aspooky lover.
Tj Maxx and Marshalls has theirfall and Halloween candles out
now.
Hannah (04:52):
Code orange, everyone Code orange this is not a drill.
Courtney (04:55):
I already bought five.
Hannah (04:56):
I mean, I got my Headless Horseman lit up right
now.
Courtney (04:59):
He's there all year.
Hannah (05:00):
I got Apple Pumpkin going.
Courtney (05:06):
I got Macintosh going.
Hannah's a candle blender.
I feel like I want people towrite in and tell us like in my
house I can light one candle ata time unless it's like one in
the kitchen and one in theliving room by a very high
ceiling, so I feel like itdoesn't smell bad, right?
Hannah (05:18):
no, you would tell me if it smelled bad, of course I
would.
I would blow out your candles.
Well, she has done that folks,actually one time because like
we were don't know walking downthe hallway to go somewhere in
the building and she went.
Courtney (05:28):
she's like I'm sorry, that wasn't my candle to blow
out Autism, I don't know.
I feel like I'm one of thosepeople where I don't like to
light a candle in the beginningof the day, because if I'm going
to leave, I would not have litthem until I got home.
Yeah, you wait until you'redone for the day and then, in
(05:49):
the event that, you have to goback out.
Hannah (05:50):
it's like an inconvenience to blow out the
candle.
Very inconvenient, I agree.
Why is that?
That's like an unspoken rule.
How does that even happen?
Courtney (05:56):
I don't know.
Some people are blowing themout a million times.
Because doesn't that ruin thecandle too?
Depending on the type of candle, it is because you want it to
get so far out that the wax islike going down evenly.
Hannah (06:12):
Oh, I hate that one.
I always want to scrape that.
I'm afraid to scrape because Ithink they say don't scrape yeah
, I don't think you're supposedto.
Courtney (06:16):
I do whack, I do the wick trimming.
Now, I never used to do that,but I had.
This is tmi, I guess, but notreally TMI well, what are we
trimming?
Here.
A lot of appliances in myapartment, because it's older,
are the white appliances, and soI started noticing on the white
appliances there was like this,like soot, and so I was like oh
man, is there mold?
or something in here and then asI'm cleaning, and so I asked my
(06:39):
dad I was like dad, why?
And he's like well, you likecandles and if the wick is like
burning hot at the top whereit's like black and charred.
You'll get that off onto whitesubstances.
So now I've been clipping themand it hasn't been happening
anymore.
Hannah (06:52):
Small spaces and hey, we almost had a fire here, so mark
was part of that.
Courtney (06:57):
I think that's the best part of the whole story is
that I can't tell the storywithout laughing so hard I
almost pee my pants and then I'mlike oh my god, but Mark was
there, like I distinctlyremember sitting here and I was
on FaceTime talking with Markand you were in there.
Then you were like oh my god,and all of a sudden there was
like this flash of light and offI had to go and Mark's like
what's happening he was justtrying to make sure that we were
(07:19):
like safe.
Hannah (07:21):
So that story actually came up this weekend at the july
4th party so wanders we alllove.
Cousin mark and his familylives on the eastern side of
massachusetts.
So we went there and uh well,obviously if you know his accent
you know he's an eastern mess,but I digress anyways.
So that conversation, thatstory actually came up at july
4th and it was great to hear itall over again, because mark
(07:43):
just makes it sound liketerrible.
I mean, it was terrible, itfelt pretty terrible.
Courtney (07:48):
It felt pretty terrible.
I kind of want to listen tothat episode again, just to hear
it.
Sometimes I do Whenever I'mlike.
I felt particularly chaotictoday, I'll go back and listen
and I'm like but I wasn't lightthe house on fire while Rob's
not home chaotic and rememberhow upset I was I was.
I was like rob's not gonna letme come over and play anymore,
he's gonna be so mad.
Hannah (08:06):
It smells like someone left the iron on and I'm like no
it's fine and I'm like, oh mygod.
Courtney (08:12):
It's funny too, because it reminds me so much of
, like my mom, who just thoughther response to everything was
like it's fine, it's gonna befine.
I like broke my toe at onepoint and it was completely like
if your toes are going straight, my toe was pointing to the
right, it was off the side of mybody and she was like no, it's
fine, it's fine.
So it was just.
Hannah (08:30):
It was one of those responses yeah, come on, he's
courtney's aid in my life.
Honestly, I saved the building.
Basically I'm gonna throw wateron it.
Okay, I was like sure, kind ofmade it worse a little bit, but
then it was fine yeah, well, wecouldn't have touched the lid,
though.
Courtney (08:47):
That was the problem.
Yes, that was.
It was not an ideal situation,and I know what I.
It's one of those situations,like when you work with kids on
the spectrum, where you knowwhat the appropriate social
thing is, but something in theenvironment isn't going to allow
it to happen so you're like ahshit, don't take what I told you
too literally.
Hannah (09:04):
Oh my God, are we ready to like do an episode?
I'm excited to hear what we'regoing to talk about.
Today's like this can never getbetter, because you know you
have your best friend.
You read a little bit, havesome drinks, do a little
podcasting.
Courtney (09:18):
We just need fall we just need fall.
We just need fall.
Hannah (09:24):
All right, it's okay, i'll'll be here soon.
I guess we wouldn't appreciateas much if it was all year round
, right?
Courtney (09:29):
I don't know, I think I would let's talk about cults.
Hannah (09:34):
Okay, it's different, I like it right so when you think
of cults, who or what do youthink of?
Charles manson, that's a goodone, anybody else or anything
else?
I mean, I think of the.
Charles Manson, that's a goodone, anybody else or anything
else?
Courtney (09:45):
I mean I think of the KKK as a cult.
Yeah, I would say that that's apretty nice one, and then I
think of organized religion, Mmmdeep, and then I go down the
rabbit hole of like everythingis kind of a cult when you think
about it, oh God, of course.
Disney.
Disney is a cult.
Oh, I'm sorry if anyone's aDisney fan, but I think Disney
is a hardcore cult.
Hannah (10:04):
I actually met someone this weekend, lovely person.
I met her at a Fourth of Julyparty and she was covered in
tats, beautifully done, but allof them were of a Disney
character hey, or something youfind at Disney Like.
One of the ones I liked thatshe had was this woman with an
umbrella.
She's like oh, that's the onefrom the Haunted Mansion, of
course, that's what my eye drewtoo.
Courtney (10:20):
I love the Haunted Mansion.
It's my favorite movie so andit's not on Disney, of course
not, because it's one of thebest ones, it's so good, oh, my
God, all right, if you know, youknow.
Side note Starbucks isreleasing Haunted Mansion cups.
How did you find that out?
Britton told me that's amazing,Would you say?
(10:44):
Think most of the obvious cultsare run?
Hannah (10:47):
by men.
Courtney (10:48):
I think it's kind of like serial killers, right.
When you think about a serialkiller, you think about men, you
think about the 70s or the 60s.
You don't think, oh my God.
But I feel like with womenthere's still some kind of
expectation of like they're notmanipulative, even though they
can be very manipulative oh God,we can or they're not killers,
even though they shoulddefinitely be worried about.
So I think most of the popularones are men.
(11:10):
I think that would be safe tosay.
Hannah (11:12):
What if I told you a woman holds one of the highest
body counts of all infamous cultleaders?
Courtney (11:18):
Body count as in.
Ah, okay, I would want to knowwho this lady was 1.
Ah.
Okay, I would want to know whothis lady was.
1075 lives is what they do now.
Hannah (11:32):
So you know, it's probably closer to double,
probably.
Wow, okay, I'm listening hername and I'm sorry if I butcher
names in this episode, pleaseforgive me credonia merwenda,
marian merinda merinda,m-w-e-r-i-n-d-a and she is from
Uganda, okay, born in 1952.
She was born into, I would say,a pretty wealthy family because
(11:55):
they owned a lot of land, okay,so they had pineapple groves,
they had sugar cane fields.
Courtney (12:02):
Business owners as well, I would imagine.
Hannah (12:03):
So she's not a woman without resources growing up,
and speculation seems to be thatshe grew up very religious, and
I will probably say this abunch of times in this episode,
that there was a lot of warcivil war in uganda and those
parts of africa, and whenreligion was coming in, it was a
lot, lot of Catholicism.
(12:23):
Okay, so apparently she musthave gone to Catholic school, is
what we're speculating.
Oh, boy, and I love this.
Courtney (12:30):
When she was old enough, she strayed quote so she
chose something different thanwhat they agreed with.
Hannah (12:35):
Yeah, pretty much.
And or something bad happenedto her and she couldn't return.
I guess, according to them,that she may have become a slut,
which I think is totally awful.
Courtney (12:44):
She got seen sitting at a cafe with a boy.
Yeah, probably.
Hannah (12:47):
She fell for a local health officer, but according to
Credonia which that's what I'mgoing to call her now, because
that's her first name is what Ican pronounce he did her dirty,
according to her.
Okay, so you know what she did.
Courtney (12:59):
Oh boy, she killed him .
She broke into his house andset his shit on fire.
I mean, people write songsabout that.
Exactly Throw the crap on thelawn light, this whole bitch up.
Hannah (13:08):
Yeah, I think of Carrie Underwood, Like she keyed his
car.
Courtney (13:14):
I love that.
We just talked about how wealmost set your house on fire
and then that's the first thinginto the episode.
But you know, we'll just callthat a coinkydink.
Hannah (13:19):
So the author of the book I read was by Max Cutler,
who also has his own podcast,and the book is called Cults, if
you're looking into it Saidthis is the first instance of
her obsession with fire.
Oh, so she's a pyro, a littlebit of a pyro.
He also mentioned that this isone of the three elements of the
McDonald triad, which I didn'tknow.
(13:40):
There was a name to this, butyou probably know it once.
Courtney (13:44):
I tell you it's one of those things where we didn't
know there was a name for it,yes, okay, so it's supposed to
be one of the precursors tosociopathy Sociopathy.
Oh, I've been really intosociopathy lately.
Hannah (13:54):
So the fire, cruelty to animals.
And do you know?
The third.
Courtney (13:58):
Lack of empathy.
Bedwetting, ah, okay.
Hannah (14:05):
Sym wedding.
Ah, okay, symptom.
Yeah, that makes more sense.
So the family sent her to themental ward, as all families do,
which basically labeled hermentally disturbed, which
doesn't help her at all, senther on her way, didn't do much
for her timeline wise, that alsomakes sense if you're talking
she was born and you said 52 yes.
So yeah, the asylum andinstitution was very popular and
something that the author saidtoo that was interesting was
like even if she was in theunited states of america at that
(14:27):
time, the same thing wouldhappen.
Courtney (14:28):
Yeah, it wouldn't have helped her probably sooner
actually.
Hannah (14:31):
Yeah all right, everyone , I'm gonna be quoting and here
I am quoting one can't reallyconfirm what the early life of
credonia was like, but many ofthe traits that she displayed,
especially violence, cloakingitself in the guise of holiness,
as well as her lust for wealthachieved by exploitation, were
features of normalcy in Ugandawhen she came of age.
Viewed on its own, her behaviorstands out for its exceptional
(14:54):
ruthlessness.
But a country whose history hasbeen soaked in bloodshed, her
cruelty had plenty of precedents.
So the reason I wanted to readthat was because I obviously
thought it was well said that.
I didn't want to try to rewordit, but looking at the whole
picture and what Uganda wasgoing on as a whole, and even
Africa as a whole, she grew upwith a lot of violence in her
life.
(15:14):
It obviously was a part ofsociety.
It was a part of the government.
She kind of didn't have achance.
Courtney (15:19):
It's a nature versus nurture, exactly.
I feel like we have thatconversation about so many of
the monsters we talk about onthe podcast.
Is it nature, is it nurture?
Is it both, exactly.
Hannah (15:29):
So, like I said, she was ambitious and she learned to
brew banana beer, whichapparently was like a staple.
People loved it and she insertedherself into a local bar and
began to run it herself and tookadvantage of the owner.
Now, this is also going to be athing that she does, where she
just kind of like she has thiswhat I like to call Delilah
effect on men, and if you don'tknow a lot about just Bible
(15:53):
stories, like Delilah was theone that basically seduced
Samson, and Samson was supposedto be this man of God and
everything.
So that's why I don't know if Icame up with that or if it's
actually a thing.
Courtney (16:07):
So sorry if I'm stealing someone else's, but
that's what it reminded me of,like just this woman coming in
kind of trying to seduce thisman to get what she wants, she
creeps in manipulates him andgets what she wants out of him.
Hannah (16:11):
Exactly so she wanted to use the resources for her own
gain and then leave, and that'sjust kind of like what she does.
So 1989 rolls around and shedecides to go to the countryside
, where a religious movement ofCatholicism starts taking place.
And what is one thing a churchcannot get enough of Money.
Money's one, followers,followers, another.
(16:35):
That's good Visions.
Okay, yeah, right, every goodcult has someone that has, quote
unquote visions, visions, right, all these ideas, all these
ideas.
She had what is called a marionapparition, which I didn't know
.
This was a thing either andit's basically that the virgin
mary appears to her and talks toher and courtney's like the eye
(16:56):
roll I just did.
Courtney (16:58):
If we could play it back and let you guys hear, it
would have sounded like as weknow from past dealings,
credonia has a way with men.
Hannah (17:07):
She meets the man who runs a catholic school and she
becomes the person behind thescenes nicknamed the programmer.
And, as we know, in a lot ofsocieties usually people will
not listen to a woman in power.
They listen to the man, so itsounds like he was more like her
puppet.
Over exactly over 10 years, sheused her visions to build what
(17:30):
is called the movement of therestoration of the 10
commandments of god, and thatwas the name of the cult never
heard of it.
The followers worked for almostnothing typical in the cult
right and they gave up all theirworldly possessions and all
their money goes to the cultExactly.
They gathered new members andsometimes committed murder to
those who were against theirleader and movement and and
(17:54):
obviously it wasn't like great,you're joining, by the way, we
do murder people.
Like obviously it doesn'thappen.
There's a way of talking topeople and telling them it's
okay.
She told them that the VirginMary told them it was okay once
in a while to commit murder.
It's like organized crime where, by the time, you realize, what
you're doing.
Courtney (18:10):
you're so far into it that you're already incriminated
Right.
Hannah (18:13):
And what does every good religion need to follow A book?
And what does every goodreligion need to follow A book?
A text right, and while theBible was useful, they needed
more.
So, if you think of the Bibleas one text, their text was
basically the sequel, so it waswhat came after Correct, and
they called it a timely messagefrom heaven.
(18:33):
Oh boy, and here I am quotingagain and here she is quoting,
and this is a sample quote fromthe text there will be great
tribulation upon all the peoplesuch that has never been
experienced by any person sincethe creation of the world.
People will be absent-mindedand will develop a spirit of
independence from God in theirdeeds, and this spirit will
displease the creator.
He will, in reaction, releaseto the world chastisements that
(19:00):
will include the shedding ofblood in many countries.
So fire and brimstone is thebasis of it.
So, according to this cult, theVirgin and Christ came down to
warn again that the end timeswere coming, and it is up to
Credonia and her followers toheed the warning and act.
That's a lot of pressure, it is, and such things as the cult
(19:21):
spread the using of fear, whicha lot of cults did right Of the
fear of the millennia, right,that was a huge thing even if
you weren't in a cult Like oh myGod, the world's coming to an
end which probably came fromsome kind of cult-like Mm-hmm.
And the AIDS epidemic.
Hmm, that's true.
They used the AIDS epidemic assomething that, oh that, was a
(19:42):
punishment of God.
If you want to save your family, come follow us.
So sad, so sad.
Their teachings were of the endtimes, like Revelation, which
is the last book in the Bible,and before the year 2000,.
Chastisements would rain onEarth, and then three days of
darkness.
Don't worry, though, thecompounds have that covered.
(20:04):
And how do you know?
Well, because it says, theybuilt arcs with food and
supplies to keep the believerssafe.
So, basically, they had thesebunkers made.
Courtney (20:15):
And they filled them with food and Compound, meaning
like did the people have to livein one set space, so it was
like a separate community Rightand there were several around
the area.
Hannah (20:23):
They weren't all together, but there were several
.
Courtney (20:25):
Okay, makes sense if you're looking at the sprawled I
mean.
Obviously I'm not familiar withgeographically Uganda, but I'm
assuming that it's easier tospread your message when you
have a small community or mediumcommunity in many places a
small community, or mediumcommunity in many places.
Hannah (20:41):
Three, uh, so their days were broken up into sevenths,
dear god.
Four sevenths was spent inprayer, two sevenths was spent
in work and only one seventh wasrest.
Did they eat?
I think there was some eatingin there, but depending on how
strong you were, usually yourwork time was a lot longer than
anybody else's.
Courtney (20:57):
So if you were able-bodied, Able-bodied, you
worked longer oh gosh, yeah.
Hannah (21:05):
Individuality was stripped.
No more birth names wererecognized.
Unmarried children were justbrothers and sisters, so it
didn't matter who you came from.
Married men and women wereaunts and uncles, and no speech
was allowed unless specialoccasions where it was permitted
, so only sign language andwriting were used to communicate
(21:25):
.
Courtney (21:26):
I just can't understand how, like sometimes
with cults, you can see like,okay, I understand why, for what
they were trying to push, thismakes sense, but I guess for
what they're trying.
Like, if you're, I'm justtrying to think, if you're
trying to disseminate anything,part of that is word of mouth,
right?
We talk about in ABAdisseminating your field through
speech, through the way thatyou make social media posts how
does your cult gain morefollowing and more community?
(21:49):
If only the ways that you guyscommunicate are allowed,
although I'm sure there's aseparate.
If you're trying to get a newbeliever, you're allowed to
speak, right Clause.
Hannah (21:59):
Now that I'm thinking, about it, or like there was only
because they did say there'sonly specific people that were
allowed to talk.
Courtney (22:05):
Ah, the people who were good at manipulation.
Hannah (22:08):
So 1993 comes around and the current Pope at the time
allegedly gave his blessing.
So he comes to Uganda andapparently there was either
credonia and one of her bishopsor the both of them, but
apparently the pope gave hisblessing.
There's we're not sure if thatactually happened allegedly, I
would hope the pope wouldn't,but this made the people so
(22:31):
excited it's like oh my god,maybe we are doing god's work
right.
Trouble started, though, whenthe predicted apocalypse didn't
arrive, so they predicted thatit would come in 1992.
Obviously didn't happen.
1995 guess what?
Didn't happen.
And then december 31st 1999 and2000 rolls in and people start
(22:52):
to leave.
They're like well, I think thisis a load of bullshit they're
like you guys are full of shit,I'm out.
And the movement got desperateand some people were either told
that the people they loved thatwere still in the compounds
were dying with illness, sopeople would come back, or they
kidnapped people to come back.
That's so sad, yeah.
So March came in the year 2000.
(23:14):
And they said, oh, theapocalypse has arrived.
And they got all the followersto go into these arcs and she
had them set on fire.
Later, hundreds, hundreds ofbodies were found throughout the
camps, whether they were buriedin places, whether they were in
the burned arcs, just randombodies everywhere.
(23:34):
And Credonia escaped and wasnever seen again.
Courtney (23:39):
So let me just play this back, because maybe there's
some listeners who also feellike I do that.
Just it hits such a ugly headso fast so she started to lose
followers when they didn'tbelieve her word.
They were leaving.
She was down to few numbers.
She kidnapped them, went as faras not all of them, but
kidnapping them or manipulatingthem to come back right, right,
just to turn around and lightthem all on fire.
Hannah (24:01):
Yes, wow, and it's a scary lady.
I will be honest.
There was a lot of politicaltalk in the book that I didn't
fully understand, a lot of namesand government, and this guy
Cutler did a really great job ofbringing in the politics of
what was happening in Uganda andthe Congos.
So I think there were somethings that I couldn't
(24:25):
disseminate really wellCulturally understand.
Yeah, makes sense, but I lovethat he well-rounded it because
obviously this didn't just comeout of nowhere.
Like you said.
Nature and nature, apparentlyand this was an eyewitness that
after she lit those arcs on fire, that she was seen in the back
of a pickup going straight intothe jungle, and so we're not
(24:45):
sure if she just like basicallytook all the assets she had and
boiled them down to money andthen headed into the jungle and
was never seen again, or if shewas all right.
I'm gonna live out my days bymyself and maybe a few followers
.
Or maybe the jungle was her endand she was eaten by a.
I'm going to live out my daysby myself and maybe a few
followers.
Courtney (25:00):
Or maybe the jungle was her end and she was eaten by
a tiger, I mean we don't know,but for all we know, I mean,
there's no proof that she didn'tlight herself murder-suicide
style.
Hannah (25:08):
So she was just never seen again.
Courtney (25:10):
She never answered for her crimes which is kind of,
because this was not that longago.
Yeah, I feel like possiblystill be alive.
Hannah (25:21):
That's true.
Yeah, because you said she wasborn in 52.
I mean she'd be an old lady, butit's interesting I just never
heard of her before, and to havea woman cult leader like this,
like I I've heard of mother god,right, yeah, that was always an
interesting one.
And there's a couple other thatare like they're off of, like
the evangelical faith, but thisone I flabbergasted but just
(25:43):
sounded like she was themanipulator, right, but she had
a lot of men with power andmoney and that's how she was
able to take control.
Courtney (25:54):
So do you think that most and this is definitely like
a personal question do you feellike most people who end up in
the position of cult leader havea power complex or they're
after wealth?
I would say?
Hannah (26:04):
power, complex and control, because if you have
control, that's true, you canprobably get money.
Courtney (26:11):
I feel like it's like the chicken or the egg.
Yeah, because so in herposition right if you think
about what little we know abouther background, which I'm sure
and I feel like, unfortunatelyliving in the united states, we
only hear about things that arelike close to home like there's
a huge media presence, whetherit's books, magazines, news
media like movies anddocumentaries and things.
(26:31):
We're just now starting to seean era where, if it happened
outside of the us, it's stillimportant and we still want to
like learn about it.
A lot of people have this ideathat if it didn't happen here to
our people, like we don't wantto know about it, so I'm not
bubble for sure right, I'm notshocked that we didn't know
anything about it, but I'm justtrying to figure out.
They said that she had all thesesigns of sociopathy.
She spent time in an asylumquestioning sanity, right?
(26:56):
Or somebody at some point wasquestioning sanity.
What was her like?
What was her why?
Why did she do all of this?
Hannah (27:02):
Yeah, and one of the things that Cutler brought up in
the book, which I don'tnecessarily agree with, is he
brought up the idea that whenpeople are brought up in strict
households like this, withstrict religion and I thought
about myself right.
So he said, oh well, oh well,you know, once they have a
little bit of freedom, they wantto experience the world, they
want to do everything.
Courtney (27:22):
Some people some people, I wouldn't say everyone,
because I I grew up in a verystrict household.
Hannah (27:28):
Did I do things like, yes, not illegal, but like?
Did I want to experience, likehow to swear, fuck.
Yeah, I did like I never sworeuntil college, like little
things like that, like that.
But like not everybody's goingto go out and like I don't know.
Courtney (27:42):
No, it's that adrenaline.
I don't want to say a junkie,but like an adrenaline junkie.
Yeah, Like somebody who getshigh on adrenaline, and I think
there's a lot of mental healthdiagnoses.
I mean, especially working withchildren on the spectrum.
Some people, some of those kids, really love that adrenaline
kick.
Adhd is a huge one for theadrenaline kick.
Yeah, I think that plays moreof a role into it than
(28:02):
necessarily the way you werebrought up.
I mean my family wasn't strictreligious, but they were strict
growing up and did I, you know,occasionally blur those lines
when I had a little bit offreedom?
Yes, but I didn't go start acult murder people.
That feels like a pretty bigjump especially, and like I keep
hearing how you were saying youknow, uganda at that time was a
very violent place.
It was, it was normalized bythat point.
(28:24):
So doing those things brutally,I'm sure, I'm sure she thought
these things are wrong.
But I think some people,especially when that religion
piece comes into play, theystart to really believe if, if a
greater god or if a greaterperson or higher power is
telling me I can do these things, they really believe that
that's the truth right andseeing the power that people
(28:46):
were getting out of violenceagainst people.
Hannah (28:48):
Yeah, like well, if they can do it, why can't I do it?
And then why can't I turn itinto using what I learned
through growing up, throughreligion?
Why couldn't I?
Courtney (28:58):
use that as well.
It makes me wonder if therewere other crimes that she
committed that just weren'ttraced to her, because typically
what I've read I've read a fewdifferent books where, whether
it was a memoir or just aboutsociopathy in general, when fire
setting is present, it'susually like something that
happens pretty regularly forthem, because that high of oh, I
(29:18):
set a fire and all thishappened.
They usually can't shut thatthat down, or shoplifting I've
read a lot of a lot of times.
Shoplifting is one of thosethings.
They can't even tell you whythey shoplifted the item, it's
just they got the thrill out ofit.
Hannah (29:30):
So and there was a story that wasn't verified and that
was talked about in the book,when she had owned the bar and I
don't remember the specifics,but something some guy did to
piss her off and apparently shekilled him and the guys were her
regular customers, walk in thenext day and she's cleaning
blood off the floor.
But she was like, oh hey, youguys here for a drink, like very
(29:51):
nonchalant, like very, likeyeah, I might be cleaning blood
off the floor, like blood offthe floor, like who cares, right
?
Courtney (29:59):
So there's definitely violence of some sort that was
happening prior hand, and itmakes me wonder if there was
always a tendency towards men Ithink she used her body to the
advantage.
Hannah (30:09):
I'm not I mean, if you got it working, girl, I mean
that's interesting.
Courtney (30:15):
I feel like you don't.
You're right, you now that I'mthinking about it you don't
normally hear about.
But also we're kind of cominginto an age now where being a
woman and being in a position ofpower whether it's good power
or bad power is now more likesocially acceptable and
appropriate.
I think when you're thinkingabout she was a teenager in the
60s.
So in the 70s, being a youngadult that was still not a thing
(30:38):
.
Hannah (30:38):
Yeah, we were emerging into that, but that didn't just
happen overnight and I thinkthere's a lot of murders that
probably happened way, way.
I'm like I'm talking likebefore 1900s that oh, she
couldn't have done that.
Yeah, what do you mean?
Courtney (30:50):
she wouldn't poison her husband.
I'm pretty sure that was farmore common, oh yeah, than
anybody wants to talk about likeI wonder if the life expectancy
hasn't gotten better or ifwomen have just been like you
know what somebody threw us abone for something, so now we
don't have to do that yeah it'scrazy when you think about that,
maybe just being a woman, youthink back like if I was born in
a different time I'd have beenhung like a witch.
(31:12):
Oh yeah, 100.
Absolutely I'm into weird stuff.
Like there's just no way I'moutspoken.
Somebody had told me to dosomething.
I've been like nope.
She's a witch Find her thirdteeth A hundred percent.
Hannah (31:26):
But yeah, that's Credonia from Uganda.
Courtney (31:29):
That was really exciting, Hannah.
Hannah (31:31):
Thank you, I'm glad you liked it, it was different.
Courtney (31:33):
Was there other cults in the book, or did he focus on
just that?
Hannah (31:39):
No in the book, or did he focus on just that?
No, no, there's like six.
So I tried to find one that Ididn't know much about, like,
obviously he has manson in there, obviously he has keith ranieri
for nexium, okay, which I wentdown a rabbit hole with him
already.
Uh, jim jones, there was acouple other that I was I had
never heard of, but then ofcourse, credonia.
Courtney (31:53):
So but she was the only woman in the book.
Yes, I believe she was actuallyinteresting woman in the book.
Yes, I believe she was actuallyInteresting I would really be
interested in knowing, like Imean, I'm sure there's no
database for like who are thecult leaders of history, but I
would be really interested tosee, like what that ratio
actually is percentage-wise ofthe cults that we're aware of,
and how many of those leaderswere female, I think the
(32:15):
Davidians were in there for WacoRight, but yeah, I were female.
Hannah (32:18):
I think the davidians were in there for, uh, waco
right, but yeah, I wanted to doone that maybe people just
haven't really heard much aboutit kind of reminds me of that
episode that I think it was jesswho did where.
Courtney (32:25):
It was the nurse who was like putting the patients
out of her misery.
It's the one from northampton,yes, from the leads.
The angel, the angel death.
Yeah, the angel of death.
Yeah, I don't know why it givesme those vibes like there's
something spooky about a womanin that kind of killing.
Hannah (32:45):
Yeah, stone cold have you seen the documentary of
mother god?
No, I don't think so I amtelling you it changed my mind,
like it just the synapses.
It did something and I stillthink about it to this day.
Courtney (33:03):
The images?
Cults are kind of supposed todo that, aren't they?
It's interesting how, even whenyou become fascinated with it,
like after the fact, it stillgets into your brain the way
that they designed a cult to doyeah, yeah, to gain that
following You're thinking aboutit.
It's taking over your thoughts.
It's taking over almost likewho you are.
It's kind of creepy.
Hannah (33:21):
And I'm like, oh, I would never fall for that.
Courtney (33:24):
Here I am falling for it.
Hannah (33:25):
And here I am falling for it and I also think about my
upbringing and some of thethings that were just so
ingrained in my mind since I wasa little kid.
Falling for it.
Courtney (33:40):
And I had to rewire my brain for myself.
I think a lot, of, a lot ofthings we don't consider as
cults kind of are a lot ofthings, especially with, like
social media being so big, Ithink about.
I mean, obviously, religionsare an easy one to throw a stone
at but disney is a huge one.
Disney always comes to mind whenpeople are talking about cults,
because I'm like there's likethese rules, disney, cruise
(34:00):
people.
They've got like their own wayof doing things, really and yeah
, and now they've got I don'tknow if it's like multi-level
marketing, of like people whosell cruise experiences, so
you'll see the thing come up,that's like I'm, you'll see
people post them.
They say I'm now the person whocan help you set up your
(34:21):
experience at Disney World.
Let me know if you want me tohelp you coordinate your event.
All of a sudden, those arepopping up everywhere, on social
media, everywhere, people thatI was like I didn't even know
you like Disney and it looks socasual.
That's what always strikes meabout that one.
It looks so casual, like, oh,I'm just offering, if you're
going to be coming to disney,then I can help you plan.
(34:44):
Almost like if we were atcoffee and you said, oh, we're
gonna go rob and I are gonna goto disney, and I'm telling you,
oh, I've been there, you shouldtry this ride, you should try
this park or this restaurant.
It feels like that.
But then, before you realize,you're like, oh, it's
multi-level marketing.
Now you're gonna see iteverywhere, because I said that
you're gonna be on facebook andlike six of them are gonna pop
(35:06):
up.
It's like I forget how theyword it.
Is it events?
This is why I stay home orexperiences.
Hannah (35:13):
This is why I don't go out there.
I mean, I guess I'm, I like,I'm part of, like, the scream
cult.
Like I just look over my mask,I love all the scream movies but
is I guess this is a goodquestion to ask and pose.
Is there a difference withliking something or loving
something and followingsomething because you like it,
and then following somethingbecause you believe it's a way
(35:34):
of life oh well, no, okay, well,well, but like all fall,
halloween, like it's, I don'tknow a big part, but it's not a
way of life.
Oh well, no, okay, well, well,but like all fall halloween,
like it's, I don't know a bigpart but it's not a way of life.
Courtney (35:42):
There's no rules to halloween.
No, no, everyone experienceshalloween I think for me, what
distinguishes a cult is the waythat, if it agrees with me, if
it's for me, yeah, and I like it.
I like decorating for halloweenyeah, most months out of the
year.
Hannah (35:59):
Nobody's telling me in order to get x, you must y right
for me that's where the cultybecause it brings you joy, just
to do it for yourself jehovah'switnesses.
Courtney (36:09):
I don't know why I'm not picking on them.
No disrespect, they come to mymind.
There are so many rules that Iwould.
I would be out even if Ibelieved in it, because I
wouldn't be able to keep trackof the rules.
If you have to have a rule bookto be in a club, then it's not
a club, it's a cult.
That's kind of how I thinkabout it.
(36:29):
Maybe the Wanderers can tell meif I'm right or wrong, but
that's how I think about it.
Hannah (36:33):
Yeah, guys, please.
I mean, Courtney has been doingan amazing job with all of our
social media stuff, so pleaseinteract, even if it has nothing
to do with the post.
And you see, like our hundredthepisode post, and you're like,
hey, can you do this episode orsomething?
There's nothing to do with it.
I like bigfoot too, somethingplease.
And also I do want to do ashout out to jake.
I know we had talked aboutearlier, but he did respond when
(36:55):
we were talking about wonderingif mark was yelling at me for
all the trivia questions.
Courtney (36:59):
I was getting wrong.
Hannah (37:00):
Jake did text and say that, yes, yes, he was so.
Courtney (37:03):
So are they listening while they're at work?
Is that what's happening?
So, like Wednesday, we launchit.
Yes.
Hannah (37:09):
Actually, please keep going.
Courtney (37:10):
Actually Wednesday we launch it and they listen
together, or do you thinkthey're listening separately?
Someone let me know, because Ihave to.
I'm a very visual person.
I know that I've never met you,jake.
I've definitely met mark in thevirtual flesh, in the virtual.
I like to picture how thingslook.
So I need to know are you guyslike twinning it, where, like,
one of you is holding one earbudand the other one's holding the
other, or is it?
Are we playing through a boombox?
(37:32):
I kind of like that idea.
Are we playing through like atruck?
stereo because I also don hatethat idea.
Are you guys listening sidebarand comparing notes?
I really have to know.
Hannah (37:41):
I'm really curious about all of this.
I love that so much.
And actually Mark said, well,what happened to the episode
this week, this past week, and Iwas like, well, it did come out
on Wednesday, but our producer,aka your cousin, he failed to
put it up until that night.
So sometimes it happens.
Courtney (38:00):
We understand life, we still have jobs people.
Hannah (38:01):
Rob is very busy, rob is very busy.
Courtney (38:02):
I feel like I've been saying that since we started
doing this together.
It was the biggie, now it'swork.
Rob just likes to work.
Hannah (38:10):
Guys, dude, which is funny because we don't really
like to do that we both like tosit here.
Courtney (38:16):
This feels like enjoyable work, but we don't
like to work.
Hannah (38:20):
Definitely not outside.
Oh God, no, In this 100-degreeheat.
Courtney (38:25):
I also feel like I'm going to lose major points,
because I was one of thosepeople and I'm going to admit
this on the air, so Rob can feelfree to harass me with it
forever I was one of thosepeople who was like, oh my God,
why is everybody obsessed withthe Biggie?
The Biggie isn't even thatgreat.
And I've been sitting heregoing, oh my gosh, when is the
Biggie going to come?
Oh, I love the Biggie.
Hannah (38:42):
So wait.
What changed your mind?
Courtney (38:45):
I think I used to look at the Biggie as a nuisance
because I worked in WestSpringfield oh yeah, yeah, for
two different jobs at twodifferent times and it was so
inconvenient trying to drive in.
It's like brimfield I lovebrimfield flea market.
I love going when we went.
When I go with pizza man, whenI go with anybody, I love it.
I can't stand it when I'mtrying to get someplace.
So now that I've been going,I'm actually considering getting
(39:07):
a season's pass this year forthe first time ever we already
got ours like a month ago.
Hannah (39:11):
It's just fun to go it's fun to go.
Courtney (39:14):
It's fun when you have people to meet up with, but I
also think that it gives me fallvibes.
Hannah (39:20):
That's how I know fall is coming.
Fall is here.
Courtney (39:22):
It's like in Gilmore Girls when she's like I smell
snow.
Hannah (39:25):
That's how the Biggie feels about fall.
For me, yes, like when we smellall the fried food and the
popcorn and we're like fall'salmost here, and even though
it's hot during the day, it getscool at night.
So you want to bring asweatshirt or a flannel.
Courtney (39:43):
I just remember all of the pumpkin flavored ciders and
beers with the rim, not the rim, and you get all sticky and oh,
I'm gonna add a countdown tobiggie.
I mean I think we should.
Hannah (39:48):
I think that's a good idea.
I think we should also I I wantto mention that that's really
good point about like having tolike drive through there,
because I think about brightnights.
If anyone in new england reallyknows, like bright Nights is
the biggest light extravaganzathat they do during Christmas
time and I lived across thestreet from the entrance for a
while.
I hated Bright Nights.
I hated it with a passion, butnow I'm like, oh, I love it
(40:11):
again because I don't have tolive near it.
Courtney (40:12):
Right, I think everything is good in small
doses.
That way too, and and once youunderstand but brimfield, when
we went, yeah, I understood.
This is the time we go in, thisis where we're gonna park, this
is when we're gonna leave.
The biggie is very much likethat too, once you understand
the ins and outs, like you parkhere, you just run in, you do
this and that and then you leave.
Hannah (40:29):
By this time, I mean honestly like getting older.
I say older, I'm 35 but likegetting older right now I'd
rather go to the biggie when itopens right, have my first beer
at 10 30 and then be out bythree and then all the other
kiddos can come.
Like, I like that idea I'mgonna agree to disagree.
Courtney (40:48):
Sometimes I like that, but there's also something
about at least being there a fewtimes when it's like getting
dark and you can see all thelights oh yes, there's something
about that.
Hannah (40:57):
The third or fourth?
Courtney (40:58):
time.
Yeah, the first time you haveto go at night, have to.
The first time you have to goat night, it's mandatory and you
have to go with other people.
Oh, absolutely not that I thinkanybody should go to the biggie
by themselves like total solo,I would not recommend unless you
really enjoy doing that.
But send your location to oneof us if you're gonna do that
because it doesn't feel safe togo by yourself.
I don't even go to the bathroomwhen I'm there by myself.
Sorry, if you hear Kenzie inthe background.
Hannah (41:19):
She's protecting.
Courtney (41:20):
She's been very upset.
She normally sits right in mylap the whole time that we
record.
Hannah (41:24):
And I think Maybe the next episode we do.
We need to give you like ablankie.
Courtney (41:27):
I think if I don't have a blanket she doesn't get
in my lap.
Well, this has been a greatepisode, stuff we could talk
about afterwards, so yeah, no,cults are one of those things
that you could go down therabbit hole forever and I think
maybe we should do other cults.
I'm down.
I think we should explore let'sdo it right in.
Hannah (41:44):
There's a specific one?
Yes, please tell me, otherwiseI'm just gonna pick a random one
that's less fun that is I mean.
Courtney (41:50):
Plus, I want to make sure, like I feel like I'm like
tapping the mic, like is thisthing on when I'm talking to
social media?
Hannah (41:55):
It's getting better, but you know, boss me around, tell
me what you want to hear, andvote on our polls.
Courtney (42:02):
I like it.
Hannah (42:03):
Certain times I like being bossed around.
I was just going to say shedoes not always like to be
bossed around.
Courtney (42:08):
There are times.
Hannah (42:10):
You don't need to know the other times, but this is one
of those times.
Wicked Wanderings After Dark Onthat note.
Courtney (42:14):
thank you, hannah.
That was a really great episode.
Thank you, courtney.
Bye Wanderers.
Bye Wanderers, till next time.
Hannah (42:20):
Thanks for listening.
Today, wicked Wanderings ishosted by me, hannah.
Courtney (42:23):
And co-hosted by me, courtney, and it's produced by
Rob Fitzpatrick.
Hannah (42:28):
Music by Sasha N.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
(42:48):
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
wandering.
Thank you.
So I was doing this thing the other day where I tell
myself all the time you're on abook buying ban, you can't buy
any more books.
And then I look at the shelfand I look at what's on Kindle
Unlimited and I'm like I want toread something, but it's like
when you have a menu of food infront of you for takeout options
and you're like I wantsomething but it's not here.
And that's how my TBR shelfwill never be empty.
(00:23):
Mood reader.
I am a mood reader.
Hannah (00:27):
Okay, Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (00:47):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
Hannah (01:06):
This is Wicked Wanderings.
All right, let's go.
Hi Courtney, hi Anna, how areyou?
I'm good, how are you?
I'm good, I'm swell.
So, talking about book buying,have you ever read the music?
Courtney (01:20):
I think I told you about it.
If I saw the cover, I wouldprobably be able to tell you.
I'm now looking.
Here's the problem.
Oh God, it has a you about it.
If I saw the cover, I wouldprobably be able to tell you.
I'm now looking.
Here's the problem.
Oh God, it has a sticker on it.
Hannah, you asshole.
I went through your wholebookshelf and deed did that to
them all.
I don't know how that got there, dick.
Okay, anyways, I either haveread that or it's on my TBR
shelf, because the cover looksvery familiar.
(01:41):
Okay, well.
Well, it's by t marie vandelli.
She, finally, is coming outwith another book I pre-ordered
it.
My hd carlton book box issupposed to be coming in
sometime this month.
Wow, I almost forgot all aboutit, me too.
Hannah (01:54):
She had a baby, though I saw that that's why we thought
the other book she wrote that'swhy phantom sucked.
Yeah, don't read phantom guyshd carlton and the adventure.
Courtney (02:02):
listening to this, I'm sorry.
I'm a huge hype girl.
I recommend your other booksall the time If hairy fingers
don't do anything for you, yeah.
Hairy fingers, trench coat,pinky ring.
That's all I got to say.
None of those are your vibe andyou don't want to picture Gam
Gam getting it on.
But if you like, grandpa vibesmore to you.
Some people are grandpa agedExactly, and I think the idea of
(02:24):
like a tattooed man with aPrince Albert piercing probably
would freak them out.
Just the same, leave those forthe rest of us.
You know, maybe we should savethat for our other podcast to
talk about different piercings.
We always talk about WickedWanderings After Dark, but I
feel like we should produce likebonus episodes that are video
episodes of Wicked WanderingsAfter Dark.
Oh, I'm down.
I think we should Differentcontent.
(02:45):
You never know what you'regoing to get, though.
Different strokes for differentfolks.
I didn't know where you weregoing with that.
I didn't really know either.
Sometimes I start talking andthen out comes randomness and we
just hit 100 episodes, which isreally exciting.
We did Woohoo In real time.
We're recording this the daythat we made the social media
post, so you know, like andsubscribe everybody.
(03:06):
Please.
Shameless plug and if you'relistening and you're like, but
there's only 92 episodes 91 thatwas 91 well, after they hear
this one, it'll be 92.
You gotta think about that.
See, courtney's better withmath than I am.
After you hear it, you're like,yeah, but there should be 101
episodes.
The other nine episodes are forsubscribers only.
So if you want to check thatout, subscribe, or you can just
(03:27):
continue to be missing out.
It's up to you.
Hannah (03:31):
That one's on you if you don't have fomo, then oh well I
subscribed and then my debitcard failed.
But you know what?
I have a new friend, jakeactually jake that subscribed
and then shout out jake, shoutout to jake for resubscribing.
I finally met him this weekendat a family party.
Great guy, thank you, jake,because you know you get your
card stolen sometimes, and thathappens, or it gets hacked.
So, courtney, you have noexcuse.
Courtney (03:53):
I wish everybody could .
Sometimes I forget that onpodcasts you can't see the look
on my face.
I have a very vocal face.
Yeah, I think people wouldagree about that.
So sometimes Hannah sayssomething and I'm silent because
I'm just shooting a look in herdirection.
I feel like it's likePictionary.
In that moment this feels good.
I feel like sometimes we sitdown to podcast and we're like
(04:14):
way too serious.
Today feels very relaxed.
It's obviously it's fall y'allfor us.
Oh, it's fall y'all.
We got the fall vibes going.
I'm in a hoodie and in leggingsbecause hannah keeps her house
like the arctic, which I love.
Hannah (04:33):
Um, you know, I've got my, my fall cider, cider, donut
as my drink of choice today, andwe are ready for fall.
We're still ready.
I'm still ready.
Courtney (04:36):
It's hard, I've been ready I feel like we say that,
but when I'm sitting in yourhouse, every day feels like we
got the fall-scented candlesgoing.
Everything is spooky decor.
Psa to anybody who's also aspooky lover.
Tj Maxx and Marshalls has theirfall and Halloween candles out
now.
Hannah (04:52):
Code orange, everyone Code orange this is not a drill.
Courtney (04:55):
I already bought five.
Hannah (04:56):
I mean, I got my Headless Horseman lit up right
now.
Courtney (04:59):
He's there all year.
Hannah (05:00):
I got Apple Pumpkin going.
Courtney (05:06):
I got Macintosh going.
Hannah's a candle blender.
I feel like I want people towrite in and tell us like in my
house I can light one candle ata time unless it's like one in
the kitchen and one in theliving room by a very high
ceiling, so I feel like itdoesn't smell bad, right?
Hannah (05:18):
no, you would tell me if it smelled bad, of course I
would.
I would blow out your candles.
Well, she has done that folks,actually one time because like
we were don't know walking downthe hallway to go somewhere in
the building and she went.
Courtney (05:28):
she's like I'm sorry, that wasn't my candle to blow
out Autism, I don't know.
I feel like I'm one of thosepeople where I don't like to
light a candle in the beginningof the day, because if I'm going
to leave, I would not have litthem until I got home.
Yeah, you wait until you'redone for the day and then, in
(05:49):
the event that, you have to goback out.
Hannah (05:50):
it's like an inconvenience to blow out the
candle.
Very inconvenient, I agree.
Why is that?
That's like an unspoken rule.
How does that even happen?
Courtney (05:56):
I don't know.
Some people are blowing themout a million times.
Because doesn't that ruin thecandle too?
Depending on the type of candle, it is because you want it to
get so far out that the wax islike going down evenly.
Hannah (06:12):
Oh, I hate that one.
I always want to scrape that.
I'm afraid to scrape because Ithink they say don't scrape yeah
, I don't think you're supposedto.
Courtney (06:16):
I do whack, I do the wick trimming.
Now, I never used to do that,but I had.
This is tmi, I guess, but notreally TMI well, what are we
trimming?
Here.
A lot of appliances in myapartment, because it's older,
are the white appliances, and soI started noticing on the white
appliances there was like this,like soot, and so I was like oh
man, is there mold?
or something in here and then asI'm cleaning, and so I asked my
(06:39):
dad I was like dad, why?
And he's like well, you likecandles and if the wick is like
burning hot at the top whereit's like black and charred.
You'll get that off onto whitesubstances.
So now I've been clipping themand it hasn't been happening
anymore.
Hannah (06:52):
Small spaces and hey, we almost had a fire here, so mark
was part of that.
Courtney (06:57):
I think that's the best part of the whole story is
that I can't tell the storywithout laughing so hard I
almost pee my pants and then I'mlike oh my god, but Mark was
there, like I distinctlyremember sitting here and I was
on FaceTime talking with Markand you were in there.
Then you were like oh my god,and all of a sudden there was
like this flash of light and offI had to go and Mark's like
what's happening he was justtrying to make sure that we were
(07:19):
like safe.
Hannah (07:21):
So that story actually came up this weekend at the july
4th party so wanders we alllove.
Cousin mark and his familylives on the eastern side of
massachusetts.
So we went there and uh well,obviously if you know his accent
you know he's an eastern mess,but I digress anyways.
So that conversation, thatstory actually came up at july
4th and it was great to hear itall over again, because mark
(07:43):
just makes it sound liketerrible.
I mean, it was terrible, itfelt pretty terrible.
Courtney (07:48):
It felt pretty terrible.
I kind of want to listen tothat episode again, just to hear
it.
Sometimes I do Whenever I'mlike.
I felt particularly chaotictoday, I'll go back and listen
and I'm like but I wasn't lightthe house on fire while Rob's
not home chaotic and rememberhow upset I was I was.
I was like rob's not gonna letme come over and play anymore,
he's gonna be so mad.
Hannah (08:06):
It smells like someone left the iron on and I'm like no
it's fine and I'm like, oh mygod.
Courtney (08:12):
It's funny too, because it reminds me so much of
, like my mom, who just thoughther response to everything was
like it's fine, it's gonna befine.
I like broke my toe at onepoint and it was completely like
if your toes are going straight, my toe was pointing to the
right, it was off the side of mybody and she was like no, it's
fine, it's fine.
So it was just.
Hannah (08:30):
It was one of those responses yeah, come on, he's
courtney's aid in my life.
Honestly, I saved the building.
Basically I'm gonna throw wateron it.
Okay, I was like sure, kind ofmade it worse a little bit, but
then it was fine yeah, well, wecouldn't have touched the lid,
though.
Courtney (08:47):
That was the problem.
Yes, that was.
It was not an ideal situation,and I know what I.
It's one of those situations,like when you work with kids on
the spectrum, where you knowwhat the appropriate social
thing is, but something in theenvironment isn't going to allow
it to happen so you're like ahshit, don't take what I told you
too literally.
Hannah (09:04):
Oh my God, are we ready to like do an episode?
I'm excited to hear what we'regoing to talk about.
Today's like this can never getbetter, because you know you
have your best friend.
You read a little bit, havesome drinks, do a little
podcasting.
Courtney (09:18):
We just need fall we just need fall.
We just need fall.
Hannah (09:24):
All right, it's okay, i'll'll be here soon.
I guess we wouldn't appreciateas much if it was all year round
, right?
Courtney (09:29):
I don't know, I think I would let's talk about cults.
Hannah (09:34):
Okay, it's different, I like it right so when you think
of cults, who or what do youthink of?
Charles manson, that's a goodone, anybody else or anything
else?
I mean, I think of the.
Charles Manson, that's a goodone, anybody else or anything
else?
Courtney (09:45):
I mean I think of the KKK as a cult.
Yeah, I would say that that's apretty nice one, and then I
think of organized religion, Mmmdeep, and then I go down the
rabbit hole of like everythingis kind of a cult when you think
about it, oh God, of course.
Disney.
Disney is a cult.
Oh, I'm sorry if anyone's aDisney fan, but I think Disney
is a hardcore cult.
Hannah (10:04):
I actually met someone this weekend, lovely person.
I met her at a Fourth of Julyparty and she was covered in
tats, beautifully done, but allof them were of a Disney
character hey, or something youfind at Disney Like.
One of the ones I liked thatshe had was this woman with an
umbrella.
She's like oh, that's the onefrom the Haunted Mansion, of
course, that's what my eye drewtoo.
Courtney (10:20):
I love the Haunted Mansion.
It's my favorite movie so andit's not on Disney, of course
not, because it's one of thebest ones, it's so good, oh, my
God, all right, if you know, youknow.
Side note Starbucks isreleasing Haunted Mansion cups.
How did you find that out?
Britton told me that's amazing,Would you say?
(10:44):
Think most of the obvious cultsare run?
Hannah (10:47):
by men.
Courtney (10:48):
I think it's kind of like serial killers, right.
When you think about a serialkiller, you think about men, you
think about the 70s or the 60s.
You don't think, oh my God.
But I feel like with womenthere's still some kind of
expectation of like they're notmanipulative, even though they
can be very manipulative oh God,we can or they're not killers,
even though they shoulddefinitely be worried about.
So I think most of the popularones are men.
(11:10):
I think that would be safe tosay.
Hannah (11:12):
What if I told you a woman holds one of the highest
body counts of all infamous cultleaders?
Courtney (11:18):
Body count as in.
Ah, okay, I would want to knowwho this lady was 1.
Ah.
Okay, I would want to know whothis lady was.
1075 lives is what they do now.
Hannah (11:32):
So you know, it's probably closer to double,
probably.
Wow, okay, I'm listening hername and I'm sorry if I butcher
names in this episode, pleaseforgive me credonia merwenda,
marian merinda merinda,m-w-e-r-i-n-d-a and she is from
Uganda, okay, born in 1952.
She was born into, I would say,a pretty wealthy family because
(11:55):
they owned a lot of land, okay,so they had pineapple groves,
they had sugar cane fields.
Courtney (12:02):
Business owners as well, I would imagine.
Hannah (12:03):
So she's not a woman without resources growing up,
and speculation seems to be thatshe grew up very religious, and
I will probably say this abunch of times in this episode,
that there was a lot of warcivil war in uganda and those
parts of africa, and whenreligion was coming in, it was a
lot, lot of Catholicism.
(12:23):
Okay, so apparently she musthave gone to Catholic school, is
what we're speculating.
Oh, boy, and I love this.
Courtney (12:30):
When she was old enough, she strayed quote so she
chose something different thanwhat they agreed with.
Hannah (12:35):
Yeah, pretty much.
And or something bad happenedto her and she couldn't return.
I guess, according to them,that she may have become a slut,
which I think is totally awful.
Courtney (12:44):
She got seen sitting at a cafe with a boy.
Yeah, probably.
Hannah (12:47):
She fell for a local health officer, but according to
Credonia which that's what I'mgoing to call her now, because
that's her first name is what Ican pronounce he did her dirty,
according to her.
Okay, so you know what she did.
Courtney (12:59):
Oh boy, she killed him .
She broke into his house andset his shit on fire.
I mean, people write songsabout that.
Exactly Throw the crap on thelawn light, this whole bitch up.
Hannah (13:08):
Yeah, I think of Carrie Underwood, Like she keyed his
car.
Courtney (13:14):
I love that.
We just talked about how wealmost set your house on fire
and then that's the first thinginto the episode.
But you know, we'll just callthat a coinkydink.
Hannah (13:19):
So the author of the book I read was by Max Cutler,
who also has his own podcast,and the book is called Cults, if
you're looking into it Saidthis is the first instance of
her obsession with fire.
Oh, so she's a pyro, a littlebit of a pyro.
He also mentioned that this isone of the three elements of the
McDonald triad, which I didn'tknow.
(13:40):
There was a name to this, butyou probably know it once.
Courtney (13:44):
I tell you it's one of those things where we didn't
know there was a name for it,yes, okay, so it's supposed to
be one of the precursors tosociopathy Sociopathy.
Oh, I've been really intosociopathy lately.
Hannah (13:54):
So the fire, cruelty to animals.
And do you know?
The third.
Courtney (13:58):
Lack of empathy.
Bedwetting, ah, okay.
Hannah (14:05):
Sym wedding.
Ah, okay, symptom.
Yeah, that makes more sense.
So the family sent her to themental ward, as all families do,
which basically labeled hermentally disturbed, which
doesn't help her at all, senther on her way, didn't do much
for her timeline wise, that alsomakes sense if you're talking
she was born and you said 52 yes.
So yeah, the asylum andinstitution was very popular and
something that the author saidtoo that was interesting was
like even if she was in theunited states of america at that
(14:27):
time, the same thing wouldhappen.
Courtney (14:28):
Yeah, it wouldn't have helped her probably sooner
actually.
Hannah (14:31):
Yeah all right, everyone , I'm gonna be quoting and here
I am quoting one can't reallyconfirm what the early life of
credonia was like, but many ofthe traits that she displayed,
especially violence, cloakingitself in the guise of holiness,
as well as her lust for wealthachieved by exploitation, were
features of normalcy in Ugandawhen she came of age.
Viewed on its own, her behaviorstands out for its exceptional
(14:54):
ruthlessness.
But a country whose history hasbeen soaked in bloodshed, her
cruelty had plenty of precedents.
So the reason I wanted to readthat was because I obviously
thought it was well said that.
I didn't want to try to rewordit, but looking at the whole
picture and what Uganda wasgoing on as a whole, and even
Africa as a whole, she grew upwith a lot of violence in her
life.
(15:14):
It obviously was a part ofsociety.
It was a part of the government.
She kind of didn't have achance.
Courtney (15:19):
It's a nature versus nurture, exactly.
I feel like we have thatconversation about so many of
the monsters we talk about onthe podcast.
Is it nature, is it nurture?
Is it both, exactly.
Hannah (15:29):
So, like I said, she was ambitious and she learned to
brew banana beer, whichapparently was like a staple.
People loved it and she insertedherself into a local bar and
began to run it herself and tookadvantage of the owner.
Now, this is also going to be athing that she does, where she
just kind of like she has thiswhat I like to call Delilah
effect on men, and if you don'tknow a lot about just Bible
(15:53):
stories, like Delilah was theone that basically seduced
Samson, and Samson was supposedto be this man of God and
everything.
So that's why I don't know if Icame up with that or if it's
actually a thing.
Courtney (16:07):
So sorry if I'm stealing someone else's, but
that's what it reminded me of,like just this woman coming in
kind of trying to seduce thisman to get what she wants, she
creeps in manipulates him andgets what she wants out of him.
Hannah (16:11):
Exactly so she wanted to use the resources for her own
gain and then leave, and that'sjust kind of like what she does.
So 1989 rolls around and shedecides to go to the countryside
, where a religious movement ofCatholicism starts taking place.
And what is one thing a churchcannot get enough of Money.
Money's one, followers,followers, another.
(16:35):
That's good Visions.
Okay, yeah, right, every goodcult has someone that has, quote
unquote visions, visions, right, all these ideas, all these
ideas.
She had what is called a marionapparition, which I didn't know
.
This was a thing either andit's basically that the virgin
mary appears to her and talks toher and courtney's like the eye
(16:56):
roll I just did.
Courtney (16:58):
If we could play it back and let you guys hear, it
would have sounded like as weknow from past dealings,
credonia has a way with men.
Hannah (17:07):
She meets the man who runs a catholic school and she
becomes the person behind thescenes nicknamed the programmer.
And, as we know, in a lot ofsocieties usually people will
not listen to a woman in power.
They listen to the man, so itsounds like he was more like her
puppet.
Over exactly over 10 years, sheused her visions to build what
(17:30):
is called the movement of therestoration of the 10
commandments of god, and thatwas the name of the cult never
heard of it.
The followers worked for almostnothing typical in the cult
right and they gave up all theirworldly possessions and all
their money goes to the cultExactly.
They gathered new members andsometimes committed murder to
those who were against theirleader and movement and and
(17:54):
obviously it wasn't like great,you're joining, by the way, we
do murder people.
Like obviously it doesn'thappen.
There's a way of talking topeople and telling them it's
okay.
She told them that the VirginMary told them it was okay once
in a while to commit murder.
It's like organized crime where, by the time, you realize, what
you're doing.
Courtney (18:10):
you're so far into it that you're already incriminated
Right.
Hannah (18:13):
And what does every good religion need to follow A book?
And what does every goodreligion need to follow A book?
A text right, and while theBible was useful, they needed
more.
So, if you think of the Bibleas one text, their text was
basically the sequel, so it waswhat came after Correct, and
they called it a timely messagefrom heaven.
(18:33):
Oh boy, and here I am quotingagain and here she is quoting,
and this is a sample quote fromthe text there will be great
tribulation upon all the peoplesuch that has never been
experienced by any person sincethe creation of the world.
People will be absent-mindedand will develop a spirit of
independence from God in theirdeeds, and this spirit will
displease the creator.
He will, in reaction, releaseto the world chastisements that
(19:00):
will include the shedding ofblood in many countries.
So fire and brimstone is thebasis of it.
So, according to this cult, theVirgin and Christ came down to
warn again that the end timeswere coming, and it is up to
Credonia and her followers toheed the warning and act.
That's a lot of pressure, it is, and such things as the cult
(19:21):
spread the using of fear, whicha lot of cults did right Of the
fear of the millennia, right,that was a huge thing even if
you weren't in a cult Like oh myGod, the world's coming to an
end which probably came fromsome kind of cult-like Mm-hmm.
And the AIDS epidemic.
Hmm, that's true.
They used the AIDS epidemic assomething that, oh that, was a
(19:42):
punishment of God.
If you want to save your family, come follow us.
So sad, so sad.
Their teachings were of the endtimes, like Revelation, which
is the last book in the Bible,and before the year 2000,.
Chastisements would rain onEarth, and then three days of
darkness.
Don't worry, though, thecompounds have that covered.
(20:04):
And how do you know?
Well, because it says, theybuilt arcs with food and
supplies to keep the believerssafe.
So, basically, they had thesebunkers made.
Courtney (20:15):
And they filled them with food and Compound, meaning
like did the people have to livein one set space, so it was
like a separate community Rightand there were several around
the area.
Hannah (20:23):
They weren't all together, but there were several
.
Courtney (20:25):
Okay, makes sense if you're looking at the sprawled I
mean.
Obviously I'm not familiar withgeographically Uganda, but I'm
assuming that it's easier tospread your message when you
have a small community or mediumcommunity in many places a
small community, or mediumcommunity in many places.
Hannah (20:41):
Three, uh, so their days were broken up into sevenths,
dear god.
Four sevenths was spent inprayer, two sevenths was spent
in work and only one seventh wasrest.
Did they eat?
I think there was some eatingin there, but depending on how
strong you were, usually yourwork time was a lot longer than
anybody else's.
Courtney (20:57):
So if you were able-bodied, Able-bodied, you
worked longer oh gosh, yeah.
Hannah (21:05):
Individuality was stripped.
No more birth names wererecognized.
Unmarried children were justbrothers and sisters, so it
didn't matter who you came from.
Married men and women wereaunts and uncles, and no speech
was allowed unless specialoccasions where it was permitted
, so only sign language andwriting were used to communicate
(21:25):
.
Courtney (21:26):
I just can't understand how, like sometimes
with cults, you can see like,okay, I understand why, for what
they were trying to push, thismakes sense, but I guess for
what they're trying.
Like, if you're, I'm justtrying to think, if you're
trying to disseminate anything,part of that is word of mouth,
right?
We talk about in ABAdisseminating your field through
speech, through the way thatyou make social media posts how
does your cult gain morefollowing and more community?
(21:49):
If only the ways that you guyscommunicate are allowed,
although I'm sure there's aseparate.
If you're trying to get a newbeliever, you're allowed to
speak, right Clause.
Hannah (21:59):
Now that I'm thinking, about it, or like there was only
because they did say there'sonly specific people that were
allowed to talk.
Courtney (22:05):
Ah, the people who were good at manipulation.
Hannah (22:08):
So 1993 comes around and the current Pope at the time
allegedly gave his blessing.
So he comes to Uganda andapparently there was either
credonia and one of her bishopsor the both of them, but
apparently the pope gave hisblessing.
There's we're not sure if thatactually happened allegedly, I
would hope the pope wouldn't,but this made the people so
(22:31):
excited it's like oh my god,maybe we are doing god's work
right.
Trouble started, though, whenthe predicted apocalypse didn't
arrive, so they predicted thatit would come in 1992.
Obviously didn't happen.
1995 guess what?
Didn't happen.
And then december 31st 1999 and2000 rolls in and people start
(22:52):
to leave.
They're like well, I think thisis a load of bullshit they're
like you guys are full of shit,I'm out.
And the movement got desperateand some people were either told
that the people they loved thatwere still in the compounds
were dying with illness, sopeople would come back, or they
kidnapped people to come back.
That's so sad, yeah.
So March came in the year 2000.
(23:14):
And they said, oh, theapocalypse has arrived.
And they got all the followersto go into these arcs and she
had them set on fire.
Later, hundreds, hundreds ofbodies were found throughout the
camps, whether they were buriedin places, whether they were in
the burned arcs, just randombodies everywhere.
(23:34):
And Credonia escaped and wasnever seen again.
Courtney (23:39):
So let me just play this back, because maybe there's
some listeners who also feellike I do that.
Just it hits such a ugly headso fast so she started to lose
followers when they didn'tbelieve her word.
They were leaving.
She was down to few numbers.
She kidnapped them, went as faras not all of them, but
kidnapping them or manipulatingthem to come back right, right,
just to turn around and lightthem all on fire.
Hannah (24:01):
Yes, wow, and it's a scary lady.
I will be honest.
There was a lot of politicaltalk in the book that I didn't
fully understand, a lot of namesand government, and this guy
Cutler did a really great job ofbringing in the politics of
what was happening in Uganda andthe Congos.
So I think there were somethings that I couldn't
(24:25):
disseminate really wellCulturally understand.
Yeah, makes sense, but I lovethat he well-rounded it because
obviously this didn't just comeout of nowhere.
Like you said.
Nature and nature, apparentlyand this was an eyewitness that
after she lit those arcs on fire, that she was seen in the back
of a pickup going straight intothe jungle, and so we're not
(24:45):
sure if she just like basicallytook all the assets she had and
boiled them down to money andthen headed into the jungle and
was never seen again, or if shewas all right.
I'm gonna live out my days bymyself and maybe a few followers
.
Or maybe the jungle was her endand she was eaten by a.
I'm going to live out my daysby myself and maybe a few
followers.
Courtney (25:00):
Or maybe the jungle was her end and she was eaten by
a tiger, I mean we don't know,but for all we know, I mean,
there's no proof that she didn'tlight herself murder-suicide
style.
Hannah (25:08):
So she was just never seen again.
Courtney (25:10):
She never answered for her crimes which is kind of,
because this was not that longago.
Yeah, I feel like possiblystill be alive.
Hannah (25:21):
That's true.
Yeah, because you said she wasborn in 52.
I mean she'd be an old lady, butit's interesting I just never
heard of her before, and to havea woman cult leader like this,
like I I've heard of mother god,right, yeah, that was always an
interesting one.
And there's a couple other thatare like they're off of, like
the evangelical faith, but thisone I flabbergasted but just
(25:43):
sounded like she was themanipulator, right, but she had
a lot of men with power andmoney and that's how she was
able to take control.
Courtney (25:54):
So do you think that most and this is definitely like
a personal question do you feellike most people who end up in
the position of cult leader havea power complex or they're
after wealth?
I would say?
Hannah (26:04):
power, complex and control, because if you have
control, that's true, you canprobably get money.
Courtney (26:11):
I feel like it's like the chicken or the egg.
Yeah, because so in herposition right if you think
about what little we know abouther background, which I'm sure
and I feel like, unfortunatelyliving in the united states, we
only hear about things that arelike close to home like there's
a huge media presence, whetherit's books, magazines, news
media like movies anddocumentaries and things.
(26:31):
We're just now starting to seean era where, if it happened
outside of the us, it's stillimportant and we still want to
like learn about it.
A lot of people have this ideathat if it didn't happen here to
our people, like we don't wantto know about it, so I'm not
bubble for sure right, I'm notshocked that we didn't know
anything about it, but I'm justtrying to figure out.
They said that she had all thesesigns of sociopathy.
She spent time in an asylumquestioning sanity, right?
(26:56):
Or somebody at some point wasquestioning sanity.
What was her like?
What was her why?
Why did she do all of this?
Hannah (27:02):
Yeah, and one of the things that Cutler brought up in
the book, which I don'tnecessarily agree with, is he
brought up the idea that whenpeople are brought up in strict
households like this, withstrict religion and I thought
about myself right.
So he said, oh well, oh well,you know, once they have a
little bit of freedom, they wantto experience the world, they
want to do everything.
Courtney (27:22):
Some people some people, I wouldn't say everyone,
because I I grew up in a verystrict household.
Hannah (27:28):
Did I do things like, yes, not illegal, but like?
Did I want to experience, likehow to swear, fuck.
Yeah, I did like I never sworeuntil college, like little
things like that, like that.
But like not everybody's goingto go out and like I don't know.
Courtney (27:42):
No, it's that adrenaline.
I don't want to say a junkie,but like an adrenaline junkie.
Yeah, Like somebody who getshigh on adrenaline, and I think
there's a lot of mental healthdiagnoses.
I mean, especially working withchildren on the spectrum.
Some people, some of those kids, really love that adrenaline
kick.
Adhd is a huge one for theadrenaline kick.
Yeah, I think that plays moreof a role into it than
(28:02):
necessarily the way you werebrought up.
I mean my family wasn't strictreligious, but they were strict
growing up and did I, you know,occasionally blur those lines
when I had a little bit offreedom?
Yes, but I didn't go start acult murder people.
That feels like a pretty bigjump especially, and like I keep
hearing how you were saying youknow, uganda at that time was a
very violent place.
It was, it was normalized bythat point.
(28:24):
So doing those things brutally,I'm sure, I'm sure she thought
these things are wrong.
But I think some people,especially when that religion
piece comes into play, theystart to really believe if, if a
greater god or if a greaterperson or higher power is
telling me I can do these things, they really believe that
that's the truth right andseeing the power that people
(28:46):
were getting out of violenceagainst people.
Hannah (28:48):
Yeah, like well, if they can do it, why can't I do it?
And then why can't I turn itinto using what I learned
through growing up, throughreligion?
Why couldn't I?
Courtney (28:58):
use that as well.
It makes me wonder if therewere other crimes that she
committed that just weren'ttraced to her, because typically
what I've read I've read a fewdifferent books where, whether
it was a memoir or just aboutsociopathy in general, when fire
setting is present, it'susually like something that
happens pretty regularly forthem, because that high of oh, I
(29:18):
set a fire and all thishappened.
They usually can't shut thatthat down, or shoplifting I've
read a lot of a lot of times.
Shoplifting is one of thosethings.
They can't even tell you whythey shoplifted the item, it's
just they got the thrill out ofit.
Hannah (29:30):
So and there was a story that wasn't verified and that
was talked about in the book,when she had owned the bar and I
don't remember the specifics,but something some guy did to
piss her off and apparently shekilled him and the guys were her
regular customers, walk in thenext day and she's cleaning
blood off the floor.
But she was like, oh hey, youguys here for a drink, like very
(29:51):
nonchalant, like very, likeyeah, I might be cleaning blood
off the floor, like blood offthe floor, like who cares, right
?
Courtney (29:59):
So there's definitely violence of some sort that was
happening prior hand, and itmakes me wonder if there was
always a tendency towards men Ithink she used her body to the
advantage.
Hannah (30:09):
I'm not I mean, if you got it working, girl, I mean
that's interesting.
Courtney (30:15):
I feel like you don't.
You're right, you now that I'mthinking about it you don't
normally hear about.
But also we're kind of cominginto an age now where being a
woman and being in a position ofpower whether it's good power
or bad power is now more likesocially acceptable and
appropriate.
I think when you're thinkingabout she was a teenager in the
60s.
So in the 70s, being a youngadult that was still not a thing
(30:38):
.
Hannah (30:38):
Yeah, we were emerging into that, but that didn't just
happen overnight and I thinkthere's a lot of murders that
probably happened way, way.
I'm like I'm talking likebefore 1900s that oh, she
couldn't have done that.
Yeah, what do you mean?
Courtney (30:50):
she wouldn't poison her husband.
I'm pretty sure that was farmore common, oh yeah, than
anybody wants to talk about likeI wonder if the life expectancy
hasn't gotten better or ifwomen have just been like you
know what somebody threw us abone for something, so now we
don't have to do that yeah it'scrazy when you think about that,
maybe just being a woman, youthink back like if I was born in
a different time I'd have beenhung like a witch.
(31:12):
Oh yeah, 100.
Absolutely I'm into weird stuff.
Like there's just no way I'moutspoken.
Somebody had told me to dosomething.
I've been like nope.
She's a witch Find her thirdteeth A hundred percent.
Hannah (31:26):
But yeah, that's Credonia from Uganda.
Courtney (31:29):
That was really exciting, Hannah.
Hannah (31:31):
Thank you, I'm glad you liked it, it was different.
Courtney (31:33):
Was there other cults in the book, or did he focus on
just that?
Hannah (31:39):
No in the book, or did he focus on just that?
No, no, there's like six.
So I tried to find one that Ididn't know much about, like,
obviously he has manson in there, obviously he has keith ranieri
for nexium, okay, which I wentdown a rabbit hole with him
already.
Uh, jim jones, there was acouple other that I was I had
never heard of, but then ofcourse, credonia.
Courtney (31:53):
So but she was the only woman in the book.
Yes, I believe she was actuallyinteresting woman in the book.
Yes, I believe she was actuallyInteresting I would really be
interested in knowing, like Imean, I'm sure there's no
database for like who are thecult leaders of history, but I
would be really interested tosee, like what that ratio
actually is percentage-wise ofthe cults that we're aware of,
and how many of those leaderswere female, I think the
(32:15):
Davidians were in there for WacoRight, but yeah, I were female.
Hannah (32:18):
I think the davidians were in there for, uh, waco
right, but yeah, I wanted to doone that maybe people just
haven't really heard much aboutit kind of reminds me of that
episode that I think it was jesswho did where.
Courtney (32:25):
It was the nurse who was like putting the patients
out of her misery.
It's the one from northampton,yes, from the leads.
The angel, the angel death.
Yeah, the angel of death.
Yeah, I don't know why it givesme those vibes like there's
something spooky about a womanin that kind of killing.
Hannah (32:45):
Yeah, stone cold have you seen the documentary of
mother god?
No, I don't think so I amtelling you it changed my mind,
like it just the synapses.
It did something and I stillthink about it to this day.
Courtney (33:03):
The images?
Cults are kind of supposed todo that, aren't they?
It's interesting how, even whenyou become fascinated with it,
like after the fact, it stillgets into your brain the way
that they designed a cult to doyeah, yeah, to gain that
following You're thinking aboutit.
It's taking over your thoughts.
It's taking over almost likewho you are.
It's kind of creepy.
Hannah (33:21):
And I'm like, oh, I would never fall for that.
Courtney (33:24):
Here I am falling for it.
Hannah (33:25):
And here I am falling for it and I also think about my
upbringing and some of thethings that were just so
ingrained in my mind since I wasa little kid.
Falling for it.
Courtney (33:40):
And I had to rewire my brain for myself.
I think a lot, of, a lot ofthings we don't consider as
cults kind of are a lot ofthings, especially with, like
social media being so big, Ithink about.
I mean, obviously, religionsare an easy one to throw a stone
at but disney is a huge one.
Disney always comes to mind whenpeople are talking about cults,
because I'm like there's likethese rules, disney, cruise
(34:00):
people.
They've got like their own wayof doing things, really and yeah
, and now they've got I don'tknow if it's like multi-level
marketing, of like people whosell cruise experiences, so
you'll see the thing come up,that's like I'm, you'll see
people post them.
They say I'm now the person whocan help you set up your
(34:21):
experience at Disney World.
Let me know if you want me tohelp you coordinate your event.
All of a sudden, those arepopping up everywhere, on social
media, everywhere, people thatI was like I didn't even know
you like Disney and it looks socasual.
That's what always strikes meabout that one.
It looks so casual, like, oh,I'm just offering, if you're
going to be coming to disney,then I can help you plan.
(34:44):
Almost like if we were atcoffee and you said, oh, we're
gonna go rob and I are gonna goto disney, and I'm telling you,
oh, I've been there, you shouldtry this ride, you should try
this park or this restaurant.
It feels like that.
But then, before you realize,you're like, oh, it's
multi-level marketing.
Now you're gonna see iteverywhere, because I said that
you're gonna be on facebook andlike six of them are gonna pop
(35:06):
up.
It's like I forget how theyword it.
Is it events?
This is why I stay home orexperiences.
Hannah (35:13):
This is why I don't go out there.
I mean, I guess I'm, I like,I'm part of, like, the scream
cult.
Like I just look over my mask,I love all the scream movies but
is I guess this is a goodquestion to ask and pose.
Is there a difference withliking something or loving
something and followingsomething because you like it,
and then following somethingbecause you believe it's a way
(35:34):
of life oh well, no, okay, well,well, but like all fall,
halloween, like it's, I don'tknow a big part, but it's not a
way of life.
Oh well, no, okay, well, well,but like all fall halloween,
like it's, I don't know a bigpart but it's not a way of life.
Courtney (35:42):
There's no rules to halloween.
No, no, everyone experienceshalloween I think for me, what
distinguishes a cult is the waythat, if it agrees with me, if
it's for me, yeah, and I like it.
I like decorating for halloweenyeah, most months out of the
year.
Hannah (35:59):
Nobody's telling me in order to get x, you must y right
for me that's where the cultybecause it brings you joy, just
to do it for yourself jehovah'switnesses.
Courtney (36:09):
I don't know why I'm not picking on them.
No disrespect, they come to mymind.
There are so many rules that Iwould.
I would be out even if Ibelieved in it, because I
wouldn't be able to keep trackof the rules.
If you have to have a rule bookto be in a club, then it's not
a club, it's a cult.
That's kind of how I thinkabout it.
(36:29):
Maybe the Wanderers can tell meif I'm right or wrong, but
that's how I think about it.
Hannah (36:33):
Yeah, guys, please.
I mean, Courtney has been doingan amazing job with all of our
social media stuff, so pleaseinteract, even if it has nothing
to do with the post.
And you see, like our hundredthepisode post, and you're like,
hey, can you do this episode orsomething?
There's nothing to do with it.
I like bigfoot too, somethingplease.
And also I do want to do ashout out to jake.
I know we had talked aboutearlier, but he did respond when
(36:55):
we were talking about wonderingif mark was yelling at me for
all the trivia questions.
Courtney (36:59):
I was getting wrong.
Hannah (37:00):
Jake did text and say that, yes, yes, he was so.
Courtney (37:03):
So are they listening while they're at work?
Is that what's happening?
So, like Wednesday, we launchit.
Yes.
Hannah (37:09):
Actually, please keep going.
Courtney (37:10):
Actually Wednesday we launch it and they listen
together, or do you thinkthey're listening separately?
Someone let me know, because Ihave to.
I'm a very visual person.
I know that I've never met you,jake.
I've definitely met mark in thevirtual flesh, in the virtual.
I like to picture how thingslook.
So I need to know are you guyslike twinning it, where, like,
one of you is holding one earbudand the other one's holding the
other, or is it?
Are we playing through a boombox?
(37:32):
I kind of like that idea.
Are we playing through like atruck?
stereo because I also don hatethat idea.
Are you guys listening sidebarand comparing notes?
I really have to know.
Hannah (37:41):
I'm really curious about all of this.
I love that so much.
And actually Mark said, well,what happened to the episode
this week, this past week, and Iwas like, well, it did come out
on Wednesday, but our producer,aka your cousin, he failed to
put it up until that night.
So sometimes it happens.
Courtney (38:00):
We understand life, we still have jobs people.
Hannah (38:01):
Rob is very busy, rob is very busy.
Courtney (38:02):
I feel like I've been saying that since we started
doing this together.
It was the biggie, now it'swork.
Rob just likes to work.
Hannah (38:10):
Guys, dude, which is funny because we don't really
like to do that we both like tosit here.
Courtney (38:16):
This feels like enjoyable work, but we don't
like to work.
Hannah (38:20):
Definitely not outside.
Oh God, no, In this 100-degreeheat.
Courtney (38:25):
I also feel like I'm going to lose major points,
because I was one of thosepeople and I'm going to admit
this on the air, so Rob can feelfree to harass me with it
forever I was one of thosepeople who was like, oh my God,
why is everybody obsessed withthe Biggie?
The Biggie isn't even thatgreat.
And I've been sitting heregoing, oh my gosh, when is the
Biggie going to come?
Oh, I love the Biggie.
Hannah (38:42):
So wait.
What changed your mind?
Courtney (38:45):
I think I used to look at the Biggie as a nuisance
because I worked in WestSpringfield oh yeah, yeah, for
two different jobs at twodifferent times and it was so
inconvenient trying to drive in.
It's like brimfield I lovebrimfield flea market.
I love going when we went.
When I go with pizza man, whenI go with anybody, I love it.
I can't stand it when I'mtrying to get someplace.
So now that I've been going,I'm actually considering getting
(39:07):
a season's pass this year forthe first time ever we already
got ours like a month ago.
Hannah (39:11):
It's just fun to go it's fun to go.
Courtney (39:14):
It's fun when you have people to meet up with, but I
also think that it gives me fallvibes.
Hannah (39:20):
That's how I know fall is coming.
Fall is here.
Courtney (39:22):
It's like in Gilmore Girls when she's like I smell
snow.
Hannah (39:25):
That's how the Biggie feels about fall.
For me, yes, like when we smellall the fried food and the
popcorn and we're like fall'salmost here, and even though
it's hot during the day, it getscool at night.
So you want to bring asweatshirt or a flannel.
Courtney (39:43):
I just remember all of the pumpkin flavored ciders and
beers with the rim, not the rim, and you get all sticky and oh,
I'm gonna add a countdown tobiggie.
I mean I think we should.
Hannah (39:48):
I think that's a good idea.
I think we should also I I wantto mention that that's really
good point about like having tolike drive through there,
because I think about brightnights.
If anyone in new england reallyknows, like bright Nights is
the biggest light extravaganzathat they do during Christmas
time and I lived across thestreet from the entrance for a
while.
I hated Bright Nights.
I hated it with a passion, butnow I'm like, oh, I love it
(40:11):
again because I don't have tolive near it.
Courtney (40:12):
Right, I think everything is good in small
doses.
That way too, and and once youunderstand but brimfield, when
we went, yeah, I understood.
This is the time we go in, thisis where we're gonna park, this
is when we're gonna leave.
The biggie is very much likethat too, once you understand
the ins and outs, like you parkhere, you just run in, you do
this and that and then you leave.
Hannah (40:29):
By this time, I mean honestly like getting older.
I say older, I'm 35 but likegetting older right now I'd
rather go to the biggie when itopens right, have my first beer
at 10 30 and then be out bythree and then all the other
kiddos can come.
Like, I like that idea I'mgonna agree to disagree.
Courtney (40:48):
Sometimes I like that, but there's also something
about at least being there a fewtimes when it's like getting
dark and you can see all thelights oh yes, there's something
about that.
Hannah (40:57):
The third or fourth?
Courtney (40:58):
time.
Yeah, the first time you haveto go at night, have to.
The first time you have to goat night, it's mandatory and you
have to go with other people.
Oh, absolutely not that I thinkanybody should go to the biggie
by themselves like total solo,I would not recommend unless you
really enjoy doing that.
But send your location to oneof us if you're gonna do that
because it doesn't feel safe togo by yourself.
I don't even go to the bathroomwhen I'm there by myself.
Sorry, if you hear Kenzie inthe background.
Hannah (41:19):
She's protecting.
Courtney (41:20):
She's been very upset.
She normally sits right in mylap the whole time that we
record.
Hannah (41:24):
And I think Maybe the next episode we do.
We need to give you like ablankie.
Courtney (41:27):
I think if I don't have a blanket she doesn't get
in my lap.
Well, this has been a greatepisode, stuff we could talk
about afterwards, so yeah, no,cults are one of those things
that you could go down therabbit hole forever and I think
maybe we should do other cults.
I'm down.
I think we should explore let'sdo it right in.
Hannah (41:44):
There's a specific one?
Yes, please tell me, otherwiseI'm just gonna pick a random one
that's less fun that is I mean.
Courtney (41:50):
Plus, I want to make sure, like I feel like I'm like
tapping the mic, like is thisthing on when I'm talking to
social media?
Hannah (41:55):
It's getting better, but you know, boss me around, tell
me what you want to hear, andvote on our polls.
Courtney (42:02):
I like it.
Hannah (42:03):
Certain times I like being bossed around.
I was just going to say shedoes not always like to be
bossed around.
Courtney (42:08):
There are times.
Hannah (42:10):
You don't need to know the other times, but this is one
of those times.
Wicked Wanderings After Dark Onthat note.
Courtney (42:14):
thank you, hannah.
That was a really great episode.
Thank you, courtney.
Bye Wanderers.
Bye Wanderers, till next time.
Hannah (42:20):
Thanks for listening.
Today, wicked Wanderings ishosted by me, hannah.
Courtney (42:23):
And co-hosted by me, courtney, and it's produced by
Rob Fitzpatrick.
Hannah (42:28):
Music by Sasha N.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
(42:48):
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
wandering.
Thank you.
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