August 27, 2025 • 45 mins
The Manhattan Hoax of 1824 reveals how a retired carpenter convinced hundreds of workers they would saw off Lower Manhattan, rotate it, and reattach it to prevent the island from sinking. This bizarre historical incident sparked a fascinating conversation about forgotten burial grounds, cultural respect for the dead, and society's treatment of marginalized communities.
• Jonathan shares the story of Lozier, who falsely claimed to be appointed by the mayor to lead the Manhattan sawing project
• Workers were promised triple wages to participate in the impossible engineering feat
• Lozier disappeared on the day construction was supposed to begin, hiding in Brooklyn
• New York City's development history shows Lower Manhattan as the original core, with upper regions considered countryside
• Discussion of public bathroom accessibility as a overlooked necessity for travel and everyday life
• The terracotta army discovery in 1974 revealed thousands of life-size warriors buried with China's first emperor
• Examination of how burial sites of marginalized communities are often disrespected or built over
• Conversation about unmarked graves at former mental institutions and the dehumanization of patients
• Concerns about current trends toward defunding mental health services and community supports
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah (00:00):
Because he makes it seem like it's going to happen
(00:01):
overnight, Like we're just goingto saw this part off and set it
right Totally had to see it andthen reattach it.
So obviously it wasn't going tobe that way.
Courtney (00:08):
Immediately, my thought was are these people
being paid by the hour or whenthe project?
Is completed Because you couldeasily have a whole lifetime of
money on this guy, right, right.
Jonathan (00:17):
Not getting anywhere.
Courtney (00:17):
Job security right.
Hannah (00:36):
This to me as a former so former Manhattanite is
extreme.
Okay, Hi, I'm Hannah and I'mCourtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime paranormal encounters and
(00:59):
all things spooky.
Courtney (01:00):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
This is Wicked Wanderings.
Hello Wanderers, you justsounded like an old talk show
host.
Hello Wanderers, hello Vietnamand hello Jonathan, who's here
to join us.
Jonathan (01:19):
Hello, hello.
Thank you for having me.
Courtney (01:21):
You're very welcome.
I was looking at Hannah, whowas ready to speak into the mic,
and I was like uh-huh, and thenshe was just making stim sounds
.
We're excited to have you back,jonathan.
What do we have in store for ustoday, Miss Hannah, or Mr
Jonathan?
Jonathan (01:35):
Should I jump in?
Courtney (01:36):
Yes, please.
Jonathan (01:37):
Cool, so I wanted to talk a little bit about this
cool thing that I just foundabout.
It's called the Manhattan Hoax.
Courtney (01:44):
Okay.
Jonathan (01:45):
So it was during this period in the 19th century,
early 19th century, and this ismore like weird than spooky.
But this guy decided that LowerManhattan because we have to
remember that Lower Manhattanwas considered the core part of
New York City, upper Manhattan,which is now like Washington
(02:07):
Heights and Harlem Upper WestSide Upper East Side had not
been settled yet, it was stillconsidered the country.
He thought that Lower Manhattanwas so over-settled that it was
going to weight down LowerManhattan and basically sink it.
So, he had this idea that ifthey cut it off roughly around
(02:30):
Chinatown, where Chinatown?
Hannah (02:32):
is good.
Like literally, take a shoveland like.
Jonathan (02:34):
Cut it off, push it out into the Atlantic, turn it
180 degrees and push it back andreattach it.
That that would save it.
Courtney (02:44):
Did he have a drug problem?
That sounds a lot easier thanit is.
Jonathan (02:48):
So it said in the brown.
Roughly 1824, a retiredcarpenter named Lozier stood on
a soapbox in New York city andannounced that because of all of
the new buildings in theSouthern tip of Manhattan, it
had all become far too heavy.
It was in danger of sinking thewhole island.
His fix, he would saw off theend of the island, tow it off to
(03:14):
the sea, turn it 180 degreesand then reattach it back onto
Manhattan Island.
Courtney (03:21):
Totally feasible.
Jonathan (03:23):
Which is extreme, yeah , but he said that, claiming
that Mayor Stephen Allen had puthim in charge of the project
which he hadn't Lozier.
Signed up hundreds of laborersoffering triple wages to anyone
willing to saw the island offunderwater.
He directed blacksmiths andcarpenters to begin designing
(03:43):
the 100-foot saws and 250-footoars needing to saw the island
and row it out to sea.
He also arranged for theconstruction of barracks and a
mess hall for his laborers andthe delivery of 500 cattle, 500
hogs and 3,000 chickens, ThoughI don't understand where the
hogs and the chickens come intothis?
Hannah (04:05):
Yeah, what does it have to do with anything?
Jonathan (04:06):
Unless's no idea maybe to feed them.
Hannah (04:08):
Yeah, I don't understand it sounded like he was going
for something self-sustaining,because he makes it seem like
it's going to happen overnight,like we're just going to.
Courtney (04:15):
Saw this part off and reattach it so obviously it
wasn't going to be that wayimmediately, my thought was are
these people being paid by thehour or when the project?
Hannah (04:24):
is completed.
Courtney (04:24):
Because, you could easily have a whole lifetime of
money on this guy not gettinganywhere.
Job security right.
Jonathan (04:32):
This, to me as a former Manhattanite, is extreme.
After two months of planning,the day arrived for construction
to begin.
Scores of laborers, carpenters,blacksmiths, butchers and all
of the animals he orderedlaborers, carpenters,
blacksmiths, butchers and all ofthe animals he ordered, uh, as
well as marching band inhundreds of onlookers arrived at
spring street, which is roughlyaround soho, ish, um and the
(04:55):
bowery uh, to see the historicproject go underway about.
The only person who didn't showup was actually lozier, who was
the one who created the project.
He'd suddenly left town, onquote, on account of his health.
Oh, he was actually hiding inbrooklyn and although there was
talk of having him arrested, hewasn't.
Hannah (05:15):
Why this book says the authorities didn't want to admit
that they'd absolutely beenduped okay, can we talk about,
like new york city as a whole?
Yeah, it's had so muchhistorical things happen to it
yeah like.
I'm thinking about nelly bligh,who was the insane asylum that
we went over um and that was theasylum that's out in the east
(05:38):
river, yes, which is still anisland.
That's there, correct?
You can still go out to it on aboat yeah, people live out
there they live out there I'mpretty sure they live out there
oh god.
Well then you also think abouthorror movies, that um,
rosemary's baby, and then theyjust came out with the movie.
Well, not just came out, butrecently it was apartment 17a
(05:59):
which was to be a prequel tothat happening, and it was that
famous building.
I think you showed me beforewhere a lot of elite live so
rosemary's baby is based aroundthe dakota yes, on the other
side, yes because I was only.
I lived a couple of few blocksup, so that's probably why you
remember it yeah, it was a hugedeal and so they did a lot of
(06:19):
outward shots of it and againfor apartment 17a, a lot of
outward shots of how they livedand everything, which I thought
was really cool new york city iswild.
Jonathan (06:29):
I mean the idea that this island could have been
settled so early by the dutchand then the english took over
and still for like 100 years.
The lower tip of manhattan wasreally the only part of the city
, and the parts we considerstill manhattan today, like the
upper east side, the upper westside, harlem, washington heights
(06:51):
, would have been considered.
Hannah (06:52):
The country is really extraordinary yeah and that's
also densely settled so is thatwhere, like sleepy hollow with
the van tassels came into play.
Jonathan (07:02):
So the Sleepy Hollow is closer.
It's further north, it'sconsidered more.
I mean now it's probablyconsidered a suburb, but it's
much more suburban country.
Yeah.
Hannah (07:17):
Because you're talking about the Dutch, so that's why.
Jonathan (07:19):
Oh yeah, I mean, the Dutch were all you know so
invested in New York.
Courtney (07:24):
I've never been to New York City, are you?
Serious, I'm sorry what I'mserious, I didn't know this,
we'll have to go.
Jonathan (07:30):
We'll have to make this spooky, wicked wandering
strip.
Courtney (07:32):
I don't know why that just dawned on me.
It's funny because sometimesplaces are so.
I met somebody the other daywho lives in Connecticut and
they had never been to Boston.
Oh, oh yeah, and I was like why, like we have all this stuff in
connecticut, so and they'relike down by the coast in
connecticut, so like they're notlike hartford, connecticut.
They were like why would I go?
Like everything I can just goto hartford if I want something,
(07:54):
or I can go to bridgeport.
I'm like, yeah, bridgeport andhartford are not boston yeah,
it's not it's not the sameboston is very unique for
anybody who's been there arepeople who live there.
But it's just crazy to me thatyou can be in New England and
people don't.
They don't go to places thatare that big.
Oh my God, I've never been toNew York City.
I don't know what I would everdo in New York City.
Hannah (08:14):
That's why you have a tour guide.
I hate crowds.
Hint, hint.
I know, I hear that.
Courtney (08:20):
We don't have to go to Times Square.
Jonathan (08:21):
That's like my nightmare there's so much in New
York City that you would loveto see.
Courtney (08:26):
Oh, I'm sure, History-wise, food-wise, I mean
just the.
Hannah (08:30):
Strand For the books.
Jonathan (08:32):
Miles of books.
I mean it's just you would love, and it's not loud, it's just
like people that love books andwant to go there.
Hannah (08:40):
It's like a bunch of quiet people.
Yes, it's like a bunch of quietpeople.
Yes, but you have to get out of, like that first section, I
feel, because they were like ah,it's a strand, it's like this
big hype, but you have to getpast those people.
Courtney (08:48):
Those are the instagram people.
Those are the people who wentin because they want their
content, right, yeah, right.
They didn't venture in all theway and they have a good
bathroom that you can use, whichis always a plus.
Hannah (08:57):
Do they have a bathroom in the strand?
Yes, it's in the kids section.
Jonathan (09:00):
Oh, no, that's absolutely true.
I have used that over and overand over and over again.
I love a bathroom.
Hannah (09:05):
For some reason the kids section has the men's and
women's bathroom in it.
Courtney (09:10):
Probably because not a lot of people would wander in
there unless they had kids.
Hannah (09:13):
Probably.
Courtney (09:14):
Because most times when you go to a city in your
walkable cities, they don't havebathrooms.
They don't.
Hannah (09:19):
It's just thinking about Scotland itself.
I know it's kind of a stretch,but like there's not like gas
station bathrooms to go to right, so you have to like either
purchase something to use theirbathroom or you have to wait
miles in advance.
Courtney (09:32):
Well, I noticed even I think it was the last time,
hannah, that you and I were innorthampton even, yeah, even,
like if you had purchasedsomething there was no bathroom
for public use.
Yeah, which to me is it's alittle bit interesting because
there's no street bathroomseither.
When I went to Colorado acouple of years ago, we were in
one of their downtown areas of asmaller area of Colorado, and I
remember saying, you know, tosomeone we were traveling with I
(09:53):
have to go to the bathroomwhere, like which store do you
think, because they were fromthere, would have?
a bathroom like a Macy's orsomething Right, there's always
a bathroom and this was verymuch like Northampton vibes not
as big but like very smallbusinesses and they were like oh
, you don't go into those.
There's this in the center ofthe park that was down the
street.
There's this building and onceyou go in, the door closes
(10:14):
behind you and after like somany minutes it'll reopen again.
So homeless people can't sleepin them and I'm like well, what
if you are not done going to thebathroom and they're like the
door is opening the door isopening and I was like, oh my
God, I've never had to like time, my pee.
But it was such an interestinglike it reminded me of smart
house, the movie.
Hannah (10:32):
And the whole building was like bionic, it like moved
around you, um, and I alwaysthought I've never seen one of
those someplace else again,wouldn't those be great for like
a city or we don't do that outhere, but I think I've never
seen it, so it's such a weirdtaboo thing to talk about.
But, like, plumbing andbathrooms are such a huge thing
for, like, any human has theright to use a restroom the core
(10:55):
of modern civilization is to beable to go pee when you want to
so many places you can't I knowwhy.
Why do we still have these likesandy cans that are just like
disgusting and inaccessible andgross, I mean?
Courtney (11:07):
and even some places when you're thankful there is
like just a sandy can outsidebecause there's no other place
to go.
But sometimes there's eventsand it's like nobody even
thought about.
Yeah, people are gonna have togo to the bathroom, right, and I
get like bathroom anxiety, likeif I go someplace and I don't
know what, I'm gonna be able topee.
Hannah (11:23):
I'm gonna have to pee 76 times yes, it's supposed to
take you to shit.
I'm sorry, like it's just.
I have an anxious belly and I'mlike I don't know at 31.
Courtney (11:31):
That's definitely a barrier to me going places where
I have to pee all the time andif I can't plan out where I am
going to pee and how I'm goingto be easily able to do that,
I'm not going.
Hannah (11:39):
Yeah, that's sad to say, but it's 100 you went to a
beautiful, interesting concertin ohio and the first thing I
asked you was well, how was theplumbing did?
Jonathan (11:49):
you have bathrooms.
Hannah (11:50):
Like that's sad.
I didn't ask you about who yousaw.
Who were the the acts on, likewhat were the bands?
Courtney (11:55):
I was like how was the plumbing like so I do have to
say they did a really good job.
They cleaned, cleaned them out.
It was day one of a festivaland they were cleaning out those
toilets like constantly, so itwas really well kept.
But anytime there's alcohol ina rock concert, the bathrooms
are questionable.
Hannah (12:14):
That's a good thing for the Big E, like they have
attendants that are constantlycleaning those bathrooms and I
always have dollar bills on me.
Courtney (12:22):
And they have a physical bathroom.
Hannah (12:23):
I will tip them Like thank bathrooms and I always
have dollar bills on me and theyhave a physical bathroom.
Jonathan (12:26):
I will tip them like thank you for having a clean
bathroom.
Make it rain.
Courtney (12:28):
Yeah, I appreciate it I know we were just talking
about it earlier too, butbrimfield flea market does an
amazing job.
They have set up like um portapotties but they have attendants
at the porta potties who cleanthem mop them, wipe them down in
between, hold the door for you.
I and they didn't always dothat.
A few years ago they starteddoing that and I have this one
field that I'm like that's myguy back there.
Hannah (12:50):
He's always keeping those bathrooms.
Courtney (12:52):
good, I will wait and cross my legs until I can get to
his bathroom.
Hannah (12:56):
I appreciate it If it smells like bleach and I have
clean toilet paper.
I love it.
Courtney (12:59):
He's always like I was trying to go in last time and
he was like oh, honey, honey, no, there's no toilet paper on
that one.
I was like sir, good looks,thank you.
Hannah (13:08):
Remember when we went to the Biggie, like before we even
got into the park, you're likeI have to freaking go and it was
just a random porta potty.
And you're like, does anyonehave a napkin?
Yeah, and somebody we were withhad a backpack that had the
minute, especially as a woman,having to think about that
because, like, men don't have towipe, men don't right, not
every time maybe some of them doby preference.
Courtney (13:27):
They're so lucky, but like we have to unless we want
infection like you don't knowwhat it looks like to be
hovering over a porta pottytoilet trying to shake it dry.
It's not a good situation,strange history.
Hannah (13:37):
Here we come, present time.
Oh, let's talk about thehorrors of babylon oh, yes,
please.
Jonathan (13:45):
I do love horrors and I do love babylon.
Hannah (13:47):
Let's do that.
More than 4 000 years ago,ancient babylonians in modern
day iraq worship the goddessishtar, also known as the great
whore of babylon.
Ishtar was the goddess of warand sexual love and the most
powerful goddess in theMesopotamian religion.
If you want to be a part of hercult and everyone did you had
(14:10):
to participate.
Oh, that doesn't sound too hard.
Every female citizen wasexpected to go at least once in
her life to the temple of Ishtarand offer herself to any male
worshiper who paid the requiredcontribution.
Mm-mm, mm-mm.
There was no shame attached tobeing one of Ishtar's
prostitutes.
In fact, it was considered asacred means of attaining divine
(14:32):
union between man and goddess.
Jonathan (14:34):
Mm.
Hannah (14:35):
Any person who was there worshipping, meaning like any
random person there worshipping,but could you pick that man?
Or did you.
Jonathan (14:44):
No, you were offered up as an offering, I mean, so
were they like on a I justpicked.
Courtney (14:50):
I have this horrible image.
I'm so sorry for everybodylistening of them in a line and
the people who are thereworshipping just get to select
like a menu of women I don'tknow if it was even that
specific.
Hannah (15:03):
But that's just.
It had a an interesting vibeuntil it was like any man could
have you.
Courtney (15:11):
I'm like when you just picture all the dirty old men
like why can't we pick the men?
We never get to pick?
We have vaginas that's how thatworks.
Jonathan (15:19):
We're just girls boo fail so I found this note about
the terror called the soldiersin china yes which I thought was
, you know, not exactly scary,but kind of spooky and
interesting.
Yeah, um right because theyfound that whole army in the
ground right exactly andespecially because of the the
(15:41):
recent event of there wasactually a gentleman who threw
himself into—so right now theterracotta soldiers have all
been uncovered.
So there was a full army'sworth of terracotta soldiers
that were buried underground andthey've all been uncovered and
now they're covered with thiskind of like dome so tourists
(16:04):
can see them, with this kind oflike a dome so tourists can see
them.
But recently, like two weeksago, this man threw himself into
the pit and started likekicking them over like insanely.
Courtney (16:15):
He was all over tiktok some kind of mental health
crisis would be my best guesshere exactly, but like for no
particular reason.
Jonathan (16:21):
But I think a lot of people might be like, oh, that's
really interesting, like whatare all these soldiers doing in
the ground?
So I was like, oh, this reallyis really fascinating.
So when a farmer was digging awell near Xi'an, china, in 1974,
a group of farmers struck whatthey thought was an oddly shaped
(16:42):
rock.
A group of farmers struck whatthey thought was an oddly shaped
rock and in actuality it was alife-size clay statue of man's
head, his hair and a top knot.
The farmers had accidentallyunearthed the first of an
estimated 8,000 life-sizewarriors, and they have still
not uncovered all of them, whichis actually really
extraordinary.
Courtney (17:01):
It's heartbreaking too .
Jonathan (17:03):
That's insane Life-size warriors, chariots,
charioteers, horses and thecache of swords and spears
buried and forgotten for over2,000 years.
Hannah (17:12):
That's incredible.
Jonathan (17:14):
The find was the terracotta army of China's first
emperor, xin Shi Huang forgiveme for my pronunciation who died
in about 200 BC.
It's believed that the army wasbuilt to guard the mausoleum,
which was over a mile away.
In the practice of the day, theemperor's childless concubines,
(17:34):
all of the artisans whocontributed to the mausoleum
were killed and buried with himafter construction was completed
.
Although the tomb was mentionedin the works of a Chinese
historian writing about 100years after the emperor's death,
the army of figures wascompletely forgotten until it
was uncovered in the 1970s.
Courtney (17:54):
Nobody wondered where all those people went.
These are the things thatstrike me after things like that
.
Jonathan (17:59):
It was 2,000 years ago .
Hannah (18:01):
But it's an incredible find and they're not even done,
uncovering everything you saidno, it's not completely
uncovered.
Jonathan (18:11):
From what I understand , the army around it has still
not been completely uncoveredand the mausoleum itself has not
been uncovered at all.
Courtney (18:19):
Oh, my gosh what?
Jonathan (18:20):
I understand there's a lot of legends legends about
how it's been booby trapped.
So I think, that there's a lotof caution around uncovering it,
which is actually reallyexciting.
Hannah (18:34):
So, like thinking of the Egyptians in our last episode,
well, there was a lot of boobytraps and unknown items that
they buried, yes, and wanted totake into the afterlife yeah, so
like was this a emperor thatjust wanted to have an army in
the next life that was one ofthe ideas right, yeah, I also
(18:56):
can't do it completely but likewonder about, because culture
plays a big role in the way thatpeople perceive death and
people in the afterlife.
Courtney (19:04):
I wonder if some of the hesitancy about trying to
uncover different parts of ittoo has to do with superstition
and culture, religion, belief ofthe afterlife and that kind of
thing too which, according, youwere saying everything that we
were saying in our last episodeabout the afterlife and how
cultures perceive it, and,religions perceive it and that
all of us have our own type ofafterlife agenda in a way that
(19:27):
just fascinating.
It's a very sensitive topic whenyou I did a ceu event yesterday
for my recertification.
That was all about likediversity and inclusion and it
talked a lot about people'sbelief when it comes to death or
families and all thosedifferent topics.
So maybe that's why it's freshin my head, which is very
progressive for our job yeah, Iwas like, yeah, they were
(19:52):
talking about transgender.
They were talking about, yeah,they're talking about gay,
transgender, different, like howdo we diversify the field into
not just being white women,which I love to see especially
working for?
Hannah (20:03):
a black-owned business.
I was like Black andfemale-owned Yep, black and
women.
Courtney (20:09):
Whoa what.
So there's a lot of progresshappening there.
Hannah (20:13):
That's amazing, that's really.
But I'm glad you had like thesame thoughts we did from our
last episode, like just it's avery interesting topic.
Courtney (20:28):
Yeah, and I also feel like there's a lot of and most
of my knowledge about this isabout, like native american
culture and then burial sitesand things.
I don't know how the maybe inchina they're treating okay
these people were buried here,whether it was by choice or not,
what that means for theirculture, about disturbing them.
Are there certain processesthey have to take?
Pretty good point it could be abigger process too, because
they have special ways that theyhave to cleanse the earth and
things like that too.
Hannah (20:48):
I'm feeling like we don't have a lot of respect for
the Native Americans because Iremember I'm sure it was a past
episode, I feel, or a pastdocumentary I watched about how
certain Native American tribesburied their dead in circular
graves and how they kind of werecovered over in grass and
sticks and everything and wekind of just shot them over like
(21:11):
we didn't really care aboutthem or they just weren't.
When you look at a burial site,you see gravestones.
You're like, oh, this is aburial site.
There's an honor part of it yeah, oh, there's just sticks and
grass here like we're notthinking of as a burial site and
we uncover it.
Courtney (21:26):
We're like, oh shit, there's bones here well, and how
many times do you read abouthow a building was going to be
erected someplace in the us?
And they were like, oh crap,this was actually a burial site
and instead of doing the rightthing and stopping all the
process and figuring it all out,people are just trying to shove
money at someone to continue todisturb the resting place of
right essentially hundreds ofpeople right.
Hannah (21:46):
Instead of understanding , like how these people dealt
with their dead and their deathrituals, it was like, oh well,
this must have been like a pityburying, like right, they just
killed them.
Courtney (21:57):
And they, there's the white privilege, right, right
very much so, because ifsomebody ever said to any of
those people who believe thatway like, oh, we're going to go
into this cemetery and we'regoing gonna just wreck it to the
ground, and who cares if yourancestors are there, we're just
gonna build something over thetop, they'd lose their mind.
Hannah (22:10):
Oh yeah, because if we had a church with a separate
like cemetery, like oh my goduproar, like we need to have
these up people up shoot in aspecific way and we need to let
these families know or give thema choice.
Courtney (22:21):
I don't even I'm not familiar with, like what I would
imagine, because I'm thinkingabout spider gates.
When we were talking aboutspider gate cemetery and how,
that cemetery is owned by achurch and if they own the land,
I would imagine that they wouldhave to consent to whatever it
is that you were going to do andthey would get a say in what
the I don't want to say disposal, because it sounds horrible but
(22:42):
what the next steps would be ifyou were going to build on that
land and removing a body, butalso depending on when it was
buried, certain funeral homeswill tell you we can't move that
body here, we physically can't.
Right, I know I had a familymember that we had talked about
with the funeral home just a fewyears ago.
My mom had an infant sister whohad passed away a couple weeks
(23:03):
after birth, so she was verysmall and we had asked about
getting her moved.
My grandmother passed.
Can we move her remains overhere?
And they were like no, backwhen that happened, the way that
they something about the waythat they treated the body and
the way that they buried thebody of children.
He was like we, we literallylegally cannot move that body.
Yeah, so it made me reallystart to think about if you
(23:24):
can't do it for that, is it thegrounds itself that makes it
legally binding or is it aprocess that has to do with
human bodies in the state ofmassachusetts?
Hannah (23:33):
right, because that's a really good question, because I
know the church that we wereaffiliated with, the.
The plot of land where they hadashes buried is a separate,
whole entity in itself.
So if the church got sold, thiswas a separate thing and, yeah,
because there's people'sremains there, that's a whole
different issue for the churchyou would imagine that there
would have to be some kind oflike licensing for that plot of
(23:53):
land.
Courtney (23:54):
I would imagine that's a good question, that we should
look into that, just becausethat's something good to know.
Yeah, I want to say because Ioriginally I wanted to say that
cemeteries would become town orcity property, but that can't be
true either if churches ownplots of land.
Hannah (24:06):
There's a whole board for this one, so I don't know
what it's.
It's definitely more complex.
Courtney (24:14):
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of intricacies
about it.
Jonathan (24:16):
That reminds me of like thinking back to what we
talked about earlier, but likethe lower Manhattan, thinking
back to what we talked aboutearlier about, like the lower
Manhattan, I know that in lowerManhattan they've recently,
relatively recently, in like thelast maybe 20 years, uncovered
a cemetery of black citizens andfree sl and paupers.
(24:44):
That kind of existed aroundwhat's considered lower
Manhattan and it's like halfunder a modern courthouse and
there's like if you come out ofChamber Street, the subway
station, that's in quite thelower part of Manhattan, you can
actually see a sign that sayslike the.
(25:05):
I think it says enslavedperson's cemetery or something
along those lines.
I don't love that.
That points you in the rightdirection and you know there's
nothing there.
And I've been there because theoffice I worked for, the agency
I worked for, had an office inlower Manhattan and I would take
a walk around that part oflower Manhattan on days I didn't
(25:27):
have a lot to do and I couldtake my full hour, you know, uh,
lunch break, um, but it'sreally interesting to think that
again, so much above what's nowwall street was considered
country.
It was considered like the farreaches of the city, um, it was
considered like the far reachesof the city right um.
It was considered a cemetery atone time, but the progress of
(25:49):
manhattan completely steamrolledit and it was considered just
buildable land.
And of course they built on topof it and then when they tore,
things down.
Then they reconsideredrelatively modernly in like the
last 20 years of like.
Oh, there's more to this pieceof land.
Hannah (26:06):
Oh shit we fucked up.
Jonathan (26:08):
Than just what there is now.
So they've actually created abeautiful memorial, but there's
so much more to that.
Courtney (26:16):
Yeah, again, that's where culture and race comes
into play again, where I said Ifind myself sitting here as a
white woman like, well, wouldthat have ever happened to my
ancestors for being white?
I don't.
I just don't think so.
No, probably not.
And that's so incrediblyheartbreaking.
That's building a building ontop of it, because at some point
in the development you had tohave known what was there,
(26:36):
whether it was on record orwhether it was like visible to
the eye at some point, which itmust have been.
Hannah (26:41):
Hey, this is a cemetery, but I, I think when you so,
even on to the not trained eye.
When you look at bones, I thinkit's very easy for anyone
that's educated to see thedifference between bones of a
white individual and a blackindividual you talked about that
in an episode a few episodesback, yeah, when you were
(27:01):
getting really into the bone.
Courtney (27:02):
I forget which book it was that you had read, or maybe
it was a documentary, but youdid a really good episode.
Hannah (27:09):
I think it was that I got into yeah, I believe it was
that one.
So that's really sad becausethey must have had some type of
doctor of anthropology in somerespects to look at them and
that's just really sad yeah, youhad to have known.
Courtney (27:26):
You had to have known when you disturbed the first set
, especially when you call it.
What did you say?
Jonathan (27:30):
it was like the enslaved people's cemetery yeah,
I'm trying to remember what itwas actually, what it's labeled,
but when you come out ofchamber street cemetery uh,
chamber street subway station inlower manhattan it's like
enslaved's cemetery.
Hannah (27:44):
Do you know where the bones went after all that?
Jonathan (27:47):
They're still there, they're still underneath it.
Courtney (27:49):
It's on the out.
Jonathan (27:50):
What they did was they built on top of it until they
tore buildings down, maybe inthe 80s or 90s, and then they
discovered through archaeologythat it was actually a cemetery.
Now, this is not the only placein manhattan that has a
cemetery for black individualsthat's built upon.
(28:10):
When you think about um goingfurther north in manhattan,
there's actually a cemeterywhich is currently under a um,
like a, like a car repair garage.
Courtney (28:26):
At least the courthouse had some kind of
merit.
Jonathan (28:29):
And there's actually there's whole historians who
actually go there and theyactually have all sorts of
events next to this garage thatsay, like you know, black
individuals from our ancestrywere buried here in the 19th
century and, uh, they'reunderneath this concrete, um,
(28:50):
but it's been built on top of aterrible resting place, all
those wrenches and things allday but what's wonderful is that
they're recognizing it yeah,and they're saying yeah, our
ancestors are under thisconcrete floor Right, because
it's not their fault that ithappened Right exactly.
But they're doing reallywonderful work, but of course
there's a business on top ofthem and what do you do?
(29:12):
Now.
Courtney (29:14):
Right, and they're just as entitled legally to that
land as the bones are.
At that point too.
Jonathan (29:18):
Exactly, but this is not the only place.
I mean, this is just Manhattan,but when you think about places
like Lanier Lake in north ofAtlanta, where they basically
drowned black neighborhoods inorder to build a lake north of
Atlanta, and where houses andcemeteries of a free black
(29:43):
community are buried under milesof water.
Oh my God.
And people now have theirsummer houses on top.
Hannah (29:51):
Oh God, that's sick, so gross, that's sick.
Jonathan (29:54):
But it's similar to what they did in Enfield
Massachusetts when they wantedto build a water for Quabbin,
but it was considered part ofprogress.
Courtney (30:05):
Yeah.
Jonathan (30:05):
But in the South it was very much influenced by well
, you're Black people and thisis a free neighborhood and
you're thriving economically.
We're going to choose this andwe're going to bury you, right.
Courtney (30:21):
With the.
Quabbin.
It was more chosengeographically.
From my understanding, theQuabbin is an area that I've
always been really fascinated by.
But I do believe there werewhite communities, or at least
mixed communities, that wereunderneath it, but it was quite
a few communities that they justcame in one day and were like
hey, guess what, you don't livehere anymore.
Jonathan (30:36):
You're chosen yeah.
Courtney (30:37):
And there are actual ruins of things underneath the
Quabbin.
Absolutely.
The way that we treat differentpopulations of people is just,
I don't know in the afterlifetoo.
I was thinking about the wholeconversation we were having
about how a lot of the statehospitals and state schools that
existed all across new englandand other areas too but new
england had a lot of them.
Most of the graveyards that youcan find are completely
(31:00):
unmarked fields where there'seither no markers at all telling
you that a person's lifeamounted to being there, or it's
this tiny little square that'slike the size of half of an
index card with a number on ityeah a number somebody's life
amounted to, a patient's lifeamounted to a number of where
their body fell, and that, to me, there's so many ways you can
(31:22):
get involved.
Being in massachusetts, there'sa lot of organizations that work
to hey, we're going to getnames put on these, or hey,
we're going to get these bodiesmoved or something, or at least
some kind of memorial put in.
And I always am interested inthat kind of work because to me,
especially for that, that hitsmy heart deep.
The patients, like theirpatient number and their family,
doesn't even know where theyare.
Hannah (31:42):
They're just in a field, someplace some of them all in
one grave and, I think, alsounderstanding, like with our
field, courtney, you know, withindividuals that may have some
mental deficiency in some way orjust being different.
I mean, we're all different inour own ways, right?
So many of these people havetaught me so many freaking
(32:05):
things.
It's, it's, it's appalling tome how they would be the people
kids, adults that I've known.
For them have to be a number,cause I think of them as a name.
Right, that's how far we comeas a society, which I appreciate
, but I can't see theseindividuals just being a number
(32:25):
in a graveyard Like that wouldbreak my heart, because I think
they have a lot to teach us.
They're a part of society andthey should be a part of who we
are as humanity, as a whole andthey're people, I think that's
the biggest thing for me is thatwhen you look and you do
research, so many families areimpacted by mental health crises
.
Courtney (32:45):
Every single person in most rooms has either we were
talking about this earlier, thethree of us has been in therapy
or on-psychotic type of drugs.
Uh, you know, it's not uncommonand it very easily could have
happened to any one of ourfamilies, to any one of us
sitting in this room.
We're all blessed by thesituations we were born into and
by the choices that we've madeand just who we are that we
(33:07):
didn't end up right, which Ifeel like just what it is to me
there's no excuse for I can't.
I can't come up with any excusein my head of why these people
don't have names.
They were a person the wholetime they were there.
They had admission paperworkthat had their name on it, that
had their date of birth on it,that had their social security
number on it.
There's no excuse for thereason why they ended up being
(33:28):
amounted to numbers.
Um, and I feel like it breaksmy heart that as a society, I
think we're moving back towardsthat.
I think for a while,deinstitutionalization was a
huge movement.
We were going in such a greatdirection.
We were looking at halfwayhouses, we were looking at
community living and now, all ofa sudden, I'm seeing things on
the news and I'm like we'regoing right back to these state
(33:51):
funded, not enough people totake care of people, poor level
of treatment, and I just I thinkthat has a lot to do with our
presidential party candidate.
Hannah (34:02):
It does now um where it's like let's just defund
everything that's been helpingour society, why they were
funded in the first placeexactly.
We're spending too much money.
Courtney (34:12):
No, this money was going towards people and
individuals and families thatneeded it, special education
being defunded, I mean all of itis just it breaks my heart
because there are so manypopulations of people who end up
in these situations.
We just we talked about it withsoldiers.
Hannah (34:28):
we talked about it with the people, unfortunately, in
manh Manhattan who ended upburied underneath buildings, and
I just and I think also talkingabout different demographics,
like oh well, this is happeningbecause you know, if you look at
the percentages, they they'remostly in jail.
Well, ok, why?
Courtney (34:45):
Well, why Don't get me started on the American jail
system too?
Because rehabbing people is notwhat we do.
Hannah (34:49):
No, it's not what we do.
And if you look at them likeokay, they're mostly in there
because of X, y and Z, likethere's reasons why this is
happening, and you call themcongo ghettos and whatever, but
this is the society problem.
This isn't just their problem,this is our problem.
Courtney (35:04):
Like 50% of jails, are people who needed mental health
treatment.
Yes, which is if you had anappropriate mental health system
, even if they ended up on thewrong side of the law, and you
were able to help them get theirmedications right, get them
into therapy.
Hannah (35:18):
Right Medications, therapy, everything.
Courtney (35:20):
They'd be a functioning part of society.
Hannah (35:22):
Exactly Also, and they're not getting it.
Courtney (35:24):
The people who get arrested for something and then
two years later they make itlegal to do that thing, to do
that thing, and I'm like, could,can we come up, can we?
There are murderers in there.
Can we go get that guy forselling pot?
Hannah (35:34):
back out of jail, please , for the love of god.
Oh we're having a rape againsta white and a black man, but the
reason the white guy got out isbecause he had enough money to
that.
That doesn't make any sense.
It's sick.
It's, it's sick and terribleand I feel like we're getting
off track from what we weretalking about, but it's good
conversation.
Courtney (35:51):
I feel like it's not a lot of places.
You can go in a place with freespeech that you can go to
actually say the observationsthat you make, and it's um, I
don't know.
If somebody hears it and it'snot for them, then that's,
that's okay.
But we're gonna speak our truthour job is to just expose people
(36:13):
to different information thanwhat their biases might have.
And I always tell peoplechallenge your biases.
When you start to feelsomething about a certain
population of people or things,the best thing you can do is
challenge it, learn more aboutit.
Go meet with somebody who fitsinto that stereotype that you're
judging and ask them questions,figure out how they live and
why they do things.
And if you're not comfortabledoing that, then that's how they
(36:35):
feel every day.
So if it's uncomfortable foryou that one day, that's pretty
much their every day tales fromthe cryptids.
Oh okay, very much me not cryptocryptids it's important
information there the ogobogomonster Oogie boogie.
Hannah (36:51):
That's how I love, oogie boogie.
So the Ogobogo is sometimesreferred to as Canada's Loch
Ness monster, and sightings goback to the 1800s Lurking in the
cold waters of BritishColumbia's Oconagan Lake.
He was called Nataka or LakeDemon by First Nations peoples.
They say he was once a man whogot possessed by a demon and
(37:15):
then murdered another man, sothe gods condemned him to live
forever as a serpent.
He got the name ogobogo from a1924 english music hall song
called the ogobogo the funny foxtrot.
Jonathan (37:27):
okay, weird okay, there have been numerous.
I don't know if that's entirelyclear, but yeah, I'm confused
there have been numerouseyewitness accounts over the
years.
Hannah (37:37):
One of the most famous took place 1947, when several
boaters saw the monster.
At the same time, according toa man named mr k, ogobogo had a
long, sinuous body, 30 feet inlength, consisting of about five
undulations.
What's an undulation?
Courtney (37:53):
that sounds hot it sounds phallic, apparently
separated from a long, sinuousbody five.
That's really got me thinkingwho's?
Hannah (38:03):
gonna say let's stop that they're gifted monster
apparently separated from eachother by about a two foot space,
oh boy, in which that part ofthe undulations would have been
underwater.
There appeared to be a forkedtail, of which only one half
came about above the water.
From time to time the wholething submerged and came up
(38:25):
again, so that sounds like ithad multiple boo-boos, I guess
you would call it.
Courtney (38:32):
I'm sorry.
How do you spell the wordundulations?
Hannah (38:37):
It is U-N-D-U-L-A-T-I-O-N-S.
Courtney (38:43):
That's what I typed in , but the dictionary response is
an action.
Jonathan (38:49):
Yeah, it's undulations .
It's like the up and down.
Courtney (38:55):
Like what is it?
Jonathan (38:56):
as a noun.
What's the name of the monsteragain?
Hannah (38:59):
the monster is the ogobo what's the monster?
Jonathan (39:04):
in the nightmare before christmas.
Okay, this sounds like yes,it's also something they ripped
off the loch ness monster thissounds like the Oogie Boogie.
Hannah (39:10):
It also sounds like they ripped off the Loch.
Courtney (39:12):
Ness Monster.
Yeah, this sounds fake.
Hannah (39:14):
O-G-O-P-O-G-O Ogo Pogo.
Courtney (39:18):
They can't convert me.
I'm a Nelly.
I'm all about the Loch NessMonster.
That's what I'm about.
Hannah (39:23):
Oh, and see, the last number was what 94.
Yeah, you already did that one.
Jonathan (39:35):
That was you did that one.
That was the terracotta.
That's so weird what?
Courtney (39:37):
look how good you are.
That's a happy evening, wanders.
Yes, happy evening wanders.
Almost assassinated presidentabraham lincoln in august 1864
okay a would-be assassin tookaim at lincoln's head, but the
bullet went straight through histall top hat and missed his
head completely.
Jonathan (39:55):
Girl.
Courtney (39:55):
That's why you wear a tall hat.
They should really bring thoseback into fashion.
Jonathan (39:59):
Accessories are everything.
Courtney (40:01):
And then they had a different one under the same
category General Ulysses Grant.
Less than a year later, onApril 14, 1865, lincoln was
killed.
He had his famous hat with him,but it was sitting on the floor
Bastards.
But it could have been evenworse.
Lincoln had invited GeneralGrant and his wife Julia to
accompany him and Mrs Lincoln toFord's Theater.
(40:23):
The Grants declined.
Had his assassination plot goneaccording to plan Carl Sifakis
writes in the Encyclopedia ofAssassinations, john Wilkes
Booth would have killed not onlythe president but a future
president as well.
Jonathan (40:36):
No way, general Ulysses S Grant.
I didn't know that.
Courtney (40:39):
Why didn't the Grants go?
Jonathan (40:40):
That's interesting.
Courtney (40:41):
Because Julia Grant detested Mary Lincoln.
Jonathan (40:44):
Oh well, girl, she had issues.
Courtney (40:47):
A few weeks earlier, while touring Grant's
headquarters together, marysnubbed Julia so many times in
front of so many importantpeople that Julia refused to
spend another night in Mary'scompany.
Wow, grant biographer William SMcKeeley writes, was left to
make the president the mostclassic and limp of excuses.
He couldn't go because of thechildren.
Oh, my gosh.
(41:09):
Moral of the story wear a tallhat, and Abe Lincoln is also my
favorite president.
Don't know why, but he alwayshas been.
Hannah (41:14):
Oh, that's Rob's favorite president.
Of course it, rob.
Get out of my head.
Rob loves Abe Lincoln, okay.
Courtney (41:20):
Oh, this one's in Spanish.
What La Historia de Esperanto.
Jonathan (41:28):
The history of hope.
Courtney (41:30):
I don't know, that's all it says.
I don't have anything inEnglish here.
Esperanto is a language createdin 1887.
The history of hope.
I don't know, that's all itsays.
I don't have anything inEnglish here.
Esperanto is a language createdin 1887 by Lazarus Ludwig
Zamenhof, an idealistic28-year-old Polish
ophthalmologist.
He was troubled that his fellowEuropeans deeply mistrusted
(41:51):
each other.
If only they spoke the samelanguage he, he figured they
could begin to see eye to eye.
Zamenhoff came up with asimplified hybrid version of all
the romance languages, withonly 16 rules of grammar and no
irregular verbs.
English has 728, in case you'rewondering irregular verbs.
Yes, oh, he published hislanguage under the pseudonym dr
esperanto, which translates asone who hopes.
(42:13):
It may sound like a great idea,but after more than a century
of lobbying, the language ofpeace has failed to take hold.
The dream isn't dead, though.
Even today, there are thousandsof esperanto speakers organized
into clubs in more than 100countries around the world.
In 1966, a low-budget horrormovie called incubus was filmed
(42:33):
entirely in esperanto oh wait,okay, yes, yes, no, please, I'll
me wait, just keep goingdirected by the outer limits
creator, leslie stevens.
The movie was a weird crossbetween a gothic melodrama and
an art film.
But stevens didn't useesperanto to promote the
language of peace.
He thought it would give thefilm an eerie atmosphere.
(42:55):
It bombed.
Final note Incubus starred33-year-old William Shatner.
He didn't speak Esperanto,though the cast learned their
lines phonetically.
Shatner's next role CaptainJames T Kirk.
Hannah (43:08):
Wow, okay, sorry, I guess I was thinking about the
band, not the.
Courtney (43:11):
Yeah, that's 100% what you were thinking about.
Jonathan (43:13):
Okay.
Hannah (43:16):
I thought I knew the movie.
Courtney (43:17):
Wow.
So, that was interesting.
That one wasn't as interestingas the other ones.
I'm still really taken back bythe fact that Abe Lincoln was
almost assassinated.
Jonathan (43:28):
I know, and that you know, kind of fell over the
cliff because he was Right.
Courtney (43:32):
It really blows a hole in my story about well, if you
haven't been struck by lightning, you know you can't be struck
in the same place twice.
It really kind of ruins thattheory I had.
Going on Like with BenjaminFranklin, Just in general I
always like to say well, youknow, things don't strike twice,
but maybe they do.
This is back to that thirdtime's a charm situation, I
guess, Maybe.
Okay, Well, that was fun,Weirdo that was so much fun.
Jonathan (43:55):
Thank you both.
Courtney (43:56):
Thank you for coming again, tolerating us having a
beverage while we read someinteresting things, yes, and get
off on tangent discussions.
Hannah (44:07):
Yeah, that's the part I love about podcasting is the off
kilter, don't know where it'sgoing.
Courtney (44:14):
Conversations and then Rob hates them, so he has to
cut them all out.
Jonathan (44:20):
Well, good night Wanderers.
Good night Wanderers.
Hannah (44:22):
Bye, bye.
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme Hannah and co-hosted by me
Courtney.
Jonathan (44:30):
And it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.
Hannah (44:32):
Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
(44:54):
wandering.
Thank you.
Because he makes it seem like it's going to happen
(00:01):
overnight, Like we're just goingto saw this part off and set it
right Totally had to see it andthen reattach it.
So obviously it wasn't going tobe that way.
Courtney (00:08):
Immediately, my thought was are these people
being paid by the hour or whenthe project?
Is completed Because you couldeasily have a whole lifetime of
money on this guy, right, right.
Jonathan (00:17):
Not getting anywhere.
Courtney (00:17):
Job security right.
Hannah (00:36):
This to me as a former so former Manhattanite is
extreme.
Okay, Hi, I'm Hannah and I'mCourtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime paranormal encounters and
(00:59):
all things spooky.
Courtney (01:00):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
This is Wicked Wanderings.
Hello Wanderers, you justsounded like an old talk show
host.
Hello Wanderers, hello Vietnamand hello Jonathan, who's here
to join us.
Jonathan (01:19):
Hello, hello.
Thank you for having me.
Courtney (01:21):
You're very welcome.
I was looking at Hannah, whowas ready to speak into the mic,
and I was like uh-huh, and thenshe was just making stim sounds
.
We're excited to have you back,jonathan.
What do we have in store for ustoday, Miss Hannah, or Mr
Jonathan?
Jonathan (01:35):
Should I jump in?
Courtney (01:36):
Yes, please.
Jonathan (01:37):
Cool, so I wanted to talk a little bit about this
cool thing that I just foundabout.
It's called the Manhattan Hoax.
Courtney (01:44):
Okay.
Jonathan (01:45):
So it was during this period in the 19th century,
early 19th century, and this ismore like weird than spooky.
But this guy decided that LowerManhattan because we have to
remember that Lower Manhattanwas considered the core part of
New York City, upper Manhattan,which is now like Washington
(02:07):
Heights and Harlem Upper WestSide Upper East Side had not
been settled yet, it was stillconsidered the country.
He thought that Lower Manhattanwas so over-settled that it was
going to weight down LowerManhattan and basically sink it.
So, he had this idea that ifthey cut it off roughly around
(02:30):
Chinatown, where Chinatown?
Hannah (02:32):
is good.
Like literally, take a shoveland like.
Jonathan (02:34):
Cut it off, push it out into the Atlantic, turn it
180 degrees and push it back andreattach it.
That that would save it.
Courtney (02:44):
Did he have a drug problem?
That sounds a lot easier thanit is.
Jonathan (02:48):
So it said in the brown.
Roughly 1824, a retiredcarpenter named Lozier stood on
a soapbox in New York city andannounced that because of all of
the new buildings in theSouthern tip of Manhattan, it
had all become far too heavy.
It was in danger of sinking thewhole island.
His fix, he would saw off theend of the island, tow it off to
(03:14):
the sea, turn it 180 degreesand then reattach it back onto
Manhattan Island.
Courtney (03:21):
Totally feasible.
Jonathan (03:23):
Which is extreme, yeah , but he said that, claiming
that Mayor Stephen Allen had puthim in charge of the project
which he hadn't Lozier.
Signed up hundreds of laborersoffering triple wages to anyone
willing to saw the island offunderwater.
He directed blacksmiths andcarpenters to begin designing
(03:43):
the 100-foot saws and 250-footoars needing to saw the island
and row it out to sea.
He also arranged for theconstruction of barracks and a
mess hall for his laborers andthe delivery of 500 cattle, 500
hogs and 3,000 chickens, ThoughI don't understand where the
hogs and the chickens come intothis?
Hannah (04:05):
Yeah, what does it have to do with anything?
Jonathan (04:06):
Unless's no idea maybe to feed them.
Hannah (04:08):
Yeah, I don't understand it sounded like he was going
for something self-sustaining,because he makes it seem like
it's going to happen overnight,like we're just going to.
Courtney (04:15):
Saw this part off and reattach it so obviously it
wasn't going to be that wayimmediately, my thought was are
these people being paid by thehour or when the project?
Hannah (04:24):
is completed.
Courtney (04:24):
Because, you could easily have a whole lifetime of
money on this guy not gettinganywhere.
Job security right.
Jonathan (04:32):
This, to me as a former Manhattanite, is extreme.
After two months of planning,the day arrived for construction
to begin.
Scores of laborers, carpenters,blacksmiths, butchers and all
of the animals he orderedlaborers, carpenters,
blacksmiths, butchers and all ofthe animals he ordered, uh, as
well as marching band inhundreds of onlookers arrived at
spring street, which is roughlyaround soho, ish, um and the
(04:55):
bowery uh, to see the historicproject go underway about.
The only person who didn't showup was actually lozier, who was
the one who created the project.
He'd suddenly left town, onquote, on account of his health.
Oh, he was actually hiding inbrooklyn and although there was
talk of having him arrested, hewasn't.
Hannah (05:15):
Why this book says the authorities didn't want to admit
that they'd absolutely beenduped okay, can we talk about,
like new york city as a whole?
Yeah, it's had so muchhistorical things happen to it
yeah like.
I'm thinking about nelly bligh,who was the insane asylum that
we went over um and that was theasylum that's out in the east
(05:38):
river, yes, which is still anisland.
That's there, correct?
You can still go out to it on aboat yeah, people live out
there they live out there I'mpretty sure they live out there
oh god.
Well then you also think abouthorror movies, that um,
rosemary's baby, and then theyjust came out with the movie.
Well, not just came out, butrecently it was apartment 17a
(05:59):
which was to be a prequel tothat happening, and it was that
famous building.
I think you showed me beforewhere a lot of elite live so
rosemary's baby is based aroundthe dakota yes, on the other
side, yes because I was only.
I lived a couple of few blocksup, so that's probably why you
remember it yeah, it was a hugedeal and so they did a lot of
(06:19):
outward shots of it and againfor apartment 17a, a lot of
outward shots of how they livedand everything, which I thought
was really cool new york city iswild.
Jonathan (06:29):
I mean the idea that this island could have been
settled so early by the dutchand then the english took over
and still for like 100 years.
The lower tip of manhattan wasreally the only part of the city
, and the parts we considerstill manhattan today, like the
upper east side, the upper westside, harlem, washington heights
(06:51):
, would have been considered.
Hannah (06:52):
The country is really extraordinary yeah and that's
also densely settled so is thatwhere, like sleepy hollow with
the van tassels came into play.
Jonathan (07:02):
So the Sleepy Hollow is closer.
It's further north, it'sconsidered more.
I mean now it's probablyconsidered a suburb, but it's
much more suburban country.
Yeah.
Hannah (07:17):
Because you're talking about the Dutch, so that's why.
Jonathan (07:19):
Oh yeah, I mean, the Dutch were all you know so
invested in New York.
Courtney (07:24):
I've never been to New York City, are you?
Serious, I'm sorry what I'mserious, I didn't know this,
we'll have to go.
Jonathan (07:30):
We'll have to make this spooky, wicked wandering
strip.
Courtney (07:32):
I don't know why that just dawned on me.
It's funny because sometimesplaces are so.
I met somebody the other daywho lives in Connecticut and
they had never been to Boston.
Oh, oh yeah, and I was like why, like we have all this stuff in
connecticut, so and they'relike down by the coast in
connecticut, so like they're notlike hartford, connecticut.
They were like why would I go?
Like everything I can just goto hartford if I want something,
(07:54):
or I can go to bridgeport.
I'm like, yeah, bridgeport andhartford are not boston yeah,
it's not it's not the sameboston is very unique for
anybody who's been there arepeople who live there.
But it's just crazy to me thatyou can be in New England and
people don't.
They don't go to places thatare that big.
Oh my God, I've never been toNew York City.
I don't know what I would everdo in New York City.
Hannah (08:14):
That's why you have a tour guide.
I hate crowds.
Hint, hint.
I know, I hear that.
Courtney (08:20):
We don't have to go to Times Square.
Jonathan (08:21):
That's like my nightmare there's so much in New
York City that you would loveto see.
Courtney (08:26):
Oh, I'm sure, History-wise, food-wise, I mean
just the.
Hannah (08:30):
Strand For the books.
Jonathan (08:32):
Miles of books.
I mean it's just you would love, and it's not loud, it's just
like people that love books andwant to go there.
Hannah (08:40):
It's like a bunch of quiet people.
Yes, it's like a bunch of quietpeople.
Yes, but you have to get out of, like that first section, I
feel, because they were like ah,it's a strand, it's like this
big hype, but you have to getpast those people.
Courtney (08:48):
Those are the instagram people.
Those are the people who wentin because they want their
content, right, yeah, right.
They didn't venture in all theway and they have a good
bathroom that you can use, whichis always a plus.
Hannah (08:57):
Do they have a bathroom in the strand?
Yes, it's in the kids section.
Jonathan (09:00):
Oh, no, that's absolutely true.
I have used that over and overand over and over again.
I love a bathroom.
Hannah (09:05):
For some reason the kids section has the men's and
women's bathroom in it.
Courtney (09:10):
Probably because not a lot of people would wander in
there unless they had kids.
Hannah (09:13):
Probably.
Courtney (09:14):
Because most times when you go to a city in your
walkable cities, they don't havebathrooms.
They don't.
Hannah (09:19):
It's just thinking about Scotland itself.
I know it's kind of a stretch,but like there's not like gas
station bathrooms to go to right, so you have to like either
purchase something to use theirbathroom or you have to wait
miles in advance.
Courtney (09:32):
Well, I noticed even I think it was the last time,
hannah, that you and I were innorthampton even, yeah, even,
like if you had purchasedsomething there was no bathroom
for public use.
Yeah, which to me is it's alittle bit interesting because
there's no street bathroomseither.
When I went to Colorado acouple of years ago, we were in
one of their downtown areas of asmaller area of Colorado, and I
remember saying, you know, tosomeone we were traveling with I
(09:53):
have to go to the bathroomwhere, like which store do you
think, because they were fromthere, would have?
a bathroom like a Macy's orsomething Right, there's always
a bathroom and this was verymuch like Northampton vibes not
as big but like very smallbusinesses and they were like oh
, you don't go into those.
There's this in the center ofthe park that was down the
street.
There's this building and onceyou go in, the door closes
(10:14):
behind you and after like somany minutes it'll reopen again.
So homeless people can't sleepin them and I'm like well, what
if you are not done going to thebathroom and they're like the
door is opening the door isopening and I was like, oh my
God, I've never had to like time, my pee.
But it was such an interestinglike it reminded me of smart
house, the movie.
Hannah (10:32):
And the whole building was like bionic, it like moved
around you, um, and I alwaysthought I've never seen one of
those someplace else again,wouldn't those be great for like
a city or we don't do that outhere, but I think I've never
seen it, so it's such a weirdtaboo thing to talk about.
But, like, plumbing andbathrooms are such a huge thing
for, like, any human has theright to use a restroom the core
(10:55):
of modern civilization is to beable to go pee when you want to
so many places you can't I knowwhy.
Why do we still have these likesandy cans that are just like
disgusting and inaccessible andgross, I mean?
Courtney (11:07):
and even some places when you're thankful there is
like just a sandy can outsidebecause there's no other place
to go.
But sometimes there's eventsand it's like nobody even
thought about.
Yeah, people are gonna have togo to the bathroom, right, and I
get like bathroom anxiety, likeif I go someplace and I don't
know what, I'm gonna be able topee.
Hannah (11:23):
I'm gonna have to pee 76 times yes, it's supposed to
take you to shit.
I'm sorry, like it's just.
I have an anxious belly and I'mlike I don't know at 31.
Courtney (11:31):
That's definitely a barrier to me going places where
I have to pee all the time andif I can't plan out where I am
going to pee and how I'm goingto be easily able to do that,
I'm not going.
Hannah (11:39):
Yeah, that's sad to say, but it's 100 you went to a
beautiful, interesting concertin ohio and the first thing I
asked you was well, how was theplumbing did?
Jonathan (11:49):
you have bathrooms.
Hannah (11:50):
Like that's sad.
I didn't ask you about who yousaw.
Who were the the acts on, likewhat were the bands?
Courtney (11:55):
I was like how was the plumbing like so I do have to
say they did a really good job.
They cleaned, cleaned them out.
It was day one of a festivaland they were cleaning out those
toilets like constantly, so itwas really well kept.
But anytime there's alcohol ina rock concert, the bathrooms
are questionable.
Hannah (12:14):
That's a good thing for the Big E, like they have
attendants that are constantlycleaning those bathrooms and I
always have dollar bills on me.
Courtney (12:22):
And they have a physical bathroom.
Hannah (12:23):
I will tip them Like thank bathrooms and I always
have dollar bills on me and theyhave a physical bathroom.
Jonathan (12:26):
I will tip them like thank you for having a clean
bathroom.
Make it rain.
Courtney (12:28):
Yeah, I appreciate it I know we were just talking
about it earlier too, butbrimfield flea market does an
amazing job.
They have set up like um portapotties but they have attendants
at the porta potties who cleanthem mop them, wipe them down in
between, hold the door for you.
I and they didn't always dothat.
A few years ago they starteddoing that and I have this one
field that I'm like that's myguy back there.
Hannah (12:50):
He's always keeping those bathrooms.
Courtney (12:52):
good, I will wait and cross my legs until I can get to
his bathroom.
Hannah (12:56):
I appreciate it If it smells like bleach and I have
clean toilet paper.
I love it.
Courtney (12:59):
He's always like I was trying to go in last time and
he was like oh, honey, honey, no, there's no toilet paper on
that one.
I was like sir, good looks,thank you.
Hannah (13:08):
Remember when we went to the Biggie, like before we even
got into the park, you're likeI have to freaking go and it was
just a random porta potty.
And you're like, does anyonehave a napkin?
Yeah, and somebody we were withhad a backpack that had the
minute, especially as a woman,having to think about that
because, like, men don't have towipe, men don't right, not
every time maybe some of them doby preference.
Courtney (13:27):
They're so lucky, but like we have to unless we want
infection like you don't knowwhat it looks like to be
hovering over a porta pottytoilet trying to shake it dry.
It's not a good situation,strange history.
Hannah (13:37):
Here we come, present time.
Oh, let's talk about thehorrors of babylon oh, yes,
please.
Jonathan (13:45):
I do love horrors and I do love babylon.
Hannah (13:47):
Let's do that.
More than 4 000 years ago,ancient babylonians in modern
day iraq worship the goddessishtar, also known as the great
whore of babylon.
Ishtar was the goddess of warand sexual love and the most
powerful goddess in theMesopotamian religion.
If you want to be a part of hercult and everyone did you had
(14:10):
to participate.
Oh, that doesn't sound too hard.
Every female citizen wasexpected to go at least once in
her life to the temple of Ishtarand offer herself to any male
worshiper who paid the requiredcontribution.
Mm-mm, mm-mm.
There was no shame attached tobeing one of Ishtar's
prostitutes.
In fact, it was considered asacred means of attaining divine
(14:32):
union between man and goddess.
Jonathan (14:34):
Mm.
Hannah (14:35):
Any person who was there worshipping, meaning like any
random person there worshipping,but could you pick that man?
Or did you.
Jonathan (14:44):
No, you were offered up as an offering, I mean, so
were they like on a I justpicked.
Courtney (14:50):
I have this horrible image.
I'm so sorry for everybodylistening of them in a line and
the people who are thereworshipping just get to select
like a menu of women I don'tknow if it was even that
specific.
Hannah (15:03):
But that's just.
It had a an interesting vibeuntil it was like any man could
have you.
Courtney (15:11):
I'm like when you just picture all the dirty old men
like why can't we pick the men?
We never get to pick?
We have vaginas that's how thatworks.
Jonathan (15:19):
We're just girls boo fail so I found this note about
the terror called the soldiersin china yes which I thought was
, you know, not exactly scary,but kind of spooky and
interesting.
Yeah, um right because theyfound that whole army in the
ground right exactly andespecially because of the the
(15:41):
recent event of there wasactually a gentleman who threw
himself into—so right now theterracotta soldiers have all
been uncovered.
So there was a full army'sworth of terracotta soldiers
that were buried underground andthey've all been uncovered and
now they're covered with thiskind of like dome so tourists
(16:04):
can see them, with this kind oflike a dome so tourists can see
them.
But recently, like two weeksago, this man threw himself into
the pit and started likekicking them over like insanely.
Courtney (16:15):
He was all over tiktok some kind of mental health
crisis would be my best guesshere exactly, but like for no
particular reason.
Jonathan (16:21):
But I think a lot of people might be like, oh, that's
really interesting, like whatare all these soldiers doing in
the ground?
So I was like, oh, this reallyis really fascinating.
So when a farmer was digging awell near Xi'an, china, in 1974,
a group of farmers struck whatthey thought was an oddly shaped
(16:42):
rock.
A group of farmers struck whatthey thought was an oddly shaped
rock and in actuality it was alife-size clay statue of man's
head, his hair and a top knot.
The farmers had accidentallyunearthed the first of an
estimated 8,000 life-sizewarriors, and they have still
not uncovered all of them, whichis actually really
extraordinary.
Courtney (17:01):
It's heartbreaking too .
Jonathan (17:03):
That's insane Life-size warriors, chariots,
charioteers, horses and thecache of swords and spears
buried and forgotten for over2,000 years.
Hannah (17:12):
That's incredible.
Jonathan (17:14):
The find was the terracotta army of China's first
emperor, xin Shi Huang forgiveme for my pronunciation who died
in about 200 BC.
It's believed that the army wasbuilt to guard the mausoleum,
which was over a mile away.
In the practice of the day, theemperor's childless concubines,
(17:34):
all of the artisans whocontributed to the mausoleum
were killed and buried with himafter construction was completed
.
Although the tomb was mentionedin the works of a Chinese
historian writing about 100years after the emperor's death,
the army of figures wascompletely forgotten until it
was uncovered in the 1970s.
Courtney (17:54):
Nobody wondered where all those people went.
These are the things thatstrike me after things like that
.
Jonathan (17:59):
It was 2,000 years ago .
Hannah (18:01):
But it's an incredible find and they're not even done,
uncovering everything you saidno, it's not completely
uncovered.
Jonathan (18:11):
From what I understand , the army around it has still
not been completely uncoveredand the mausoleum itself has not
been uncovered at all.
Courtney (18:19):
Oh, my gosh what?
Jonathan (18:20):
I understand there's a lot of legends legends about
how it's been booby trapped.
So I think, that there's a lotof caution around uncovering it,
which is actually reallyexciting.
Hannah (18:34):
So, like thinking of the Egyptians in our last episode,
well, there was a lot of boobytraps and unknown items that
they buried, yes, and wanted totake into the afterlife yeah, so
like was this a emperor thatjust wanted to have an army in
the next life that was one ofthe ideas right, yeah, I also
(18:56):
can't do it completely but likewonder about, because culture
plays a big role in the way thatpeople perceive death and
people in the afterlife.
Courtney (19:04):
I wonder if some of the hesitancy about trying to
uncover different parts of ittoo has to do with superstition
and culture, religion, belief ofthe afterlife and that kind of
thing too which, according, youwere saying everything that we
were saying in our last episodeabout the afterlife and how
cultures perceive it, and,religions perceive it and that
all of us have our own type ofafterlife agenda in a way that
(19:27):
just fascinating.
It's a very sensitive topic whenyou I did a ceu event yesterday
for my recertification.
That was all about likediversity and inclusion and it
talked a lot about people'sbelief when it comes to death or
families and all thosedifferent topics.
So maybe that's why it's freshin my head, which is very
progressive for our job yeah, Iwas like, yeah, they were
(19:52):
talking about transgender.
They were talking about, yeah,they're talking about gay,
transgender, different, like howdo we diversify the field into
not just being white women,which I love to see especially
working for?
Hannah (20:03):
a black-owned business.
I was like Black andfemale-owned Yep, black and
women.
Courtney (20:09):
Whoa what.
So there's a lot of progresshappening there.
Hannah (20:13):
That's amazing, that's really.
But I'm glad you had like thesame thoughts we did from our
last episode, like just it's avery interesting topic.
Courtney (20:28):
Yeah, and I also feel like there's a lot of and most
of my knowledge about this isabout, like native american
culture and then burial sitesand things.
I don't know how the maybe inchina they're treating okay
these people were buried here,whether it was by choice or not,
what that means for theirculture, about disturbing them.
Are there certain processesthey have to take?
Pretty good point it could be abigger process too, because
they have special ways that theyhave to cleanse the earth and
things like that too.
Hannah (20:48):
I'm feeling like we don't have a lot of respect for
the Native Americans because Iremember I'm sure it was a past
episode, I feel, or a pastdocumentary I watched about how
certain Native American tribesburied their dead in circular
graves and how they kind of werecovered over in grass and
sticks and everything and wekind of just shot them over like
(21:11):
we didn't really care aboutthem or they just weren't.
When you look at a burial site,you see gravestones.
You're like, oh, this is aburial site.
There's an honor part of it yeah, oh, there's just sticks and
grass here like we're notthinking of as a burial site and
we uncover it.
Courtney (21:26):
We're like, oh shit, there's bones here well, and how
many times do you read abouthow a building was going to be
erected someplace in the us?
And they were like, oh crap,this was actually a burial site
and instead of doing the rightthing and stopping all the
process and figuring it all out,people are just trying to shove
money at someone to continue todisturb the resting place of
right essentially hundreds ofpeople right.
Hannah (21:46):
Instead of understanding , like how these people dealt
with their dead and their deathrituals, it was like, oh well,
this must have been like a pityburying, like right, they just
killed them.
Courtney (21:57):
And they, there's the white privilege, right, right
very much so, because ifsomebody ever said to any of
those people who believe thatway like, oh, we're going to go
into this cemetery and we'regoing gonna just wreck it to the
ground, and who cares if yourancestors are there, we're just
gonna build something over thetop, they'd lose their mind.
Hannah (22:10):
Oh yeah, because if we had a church with a separate
like cemetery, like oh my goduproar, like we need to have
these up people up shoot in aspecific way and we need to let
these families know or give thema choice.
Courtney (22:21):
I don't even I'm not familiar with, like what I would
imagine, because I'm thinkingabout spider gates.
When we were talking aboutspider gate cemetery and how,
that cemetery is owned by achurch and if they own the land,
I would imagine that they wouldhave to consent to whatever it
is that you were going to do andthey would get a say in what
the I don't want to say disposal, because it sounds horrible but
(22:42):
what the next steps would be ifyou were going to build on that
land and removing a body, butalso depending on when it was
buried, certain funeral homeswill tell you we can't move that
body here, we physically can't.
Right, I know I had a familymember that we had talked about
with the funeral home just a fewyears ago.
My mom had an infant sister whohad passed away a couple weeks
(23:03):
after birth, so she was verysmall and we had asked about
getting her moved.
My grandmother passed.
Can we move her remains overhere?
And they were like no, backwhen that happened, the way that
they something about the waythat they treated the body and
the way that they buried thebody of children.
He was like we, we literallylegally cannot move that body.
Yeah, so it made me reallystart to think about if you
(23:24):
can't do it for that, is it thegrounds itself that makes it
legally binding or is it aprocess that has to do with
human bodies in the state ofmassachusetts?
Hannah (23:33):
right, because that's a really good question, because I
know the church that we wereaffiliated with, the.
The plot of land where they hadashes buried is a separate,
whole entity in itself.
So if the church got sold, thiswas a separate thing and, yeah,
because there's people'sremains there, that's a whole
different issue for the churchyou would imagine that there
would have to be some kind oflike licensing for that plot of
(23:53):
land.
Courtney (23:54):
I would imagine that's a good question, that we should
look into that, just becausethat's something good to know.
Yeah, I want to say because Ioriginally I wanted to say that
cemeteries would become town orcity property, but that can't be
true either if churches ownplots of land.
Hannah (24:06):
There's a whole board for this one, so I don't know
what it's.
It's definitely more complex.
Courtney (24:14):
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of intricacies
about it.
Jonathan (24:16):
That reminds me of like thinking back to what we
talked about earlier, but likethe lower Manhattan, thinking
back to what we talked aboutearlier about, like the lower
Manhattan, I know that in lowerManhattan they've recently,
relatively recently, in like thelast maybe 20 years, uncovered
a cemetery of black citizens andfree sl and paupers.
(24:44):
That kind of existed aroundwhat's considered lower
Manhattan and it's like halfunder a modern courthouse and
there's like if you come out ofChamber Street, the subway
station, that's in quite thelower part of Manhattan, you can
actually see a sign that sayslike the.
(25:05):
I think it says enslavedperson's cemetery or something
along those lines.
I don't love that.
That points you in the rightdirection and you know there's
nothing there.
And I've been there because theoffice I worked for, the agency
I worked for, had an office inlower Manhattan and I would take
a walk around that part oflower Manhattan on days I didn't
(25:27):
have a lot to do and I couldtake my full hour, you know, uh,
lunch break, um, but it'sreally interesting to think that
again, so much above what's nowwall street was considered
country.
It was considered like the farreaches of the city, um, it was
considered like the far reachesof the city right um.
It was considered a cemetery atone time, but the progress of
(25:49):
manhattan completely steamrolledit and it was considered just
buildable land.
And of course they built on topof it and then when they tore,
things down.
Then they reconsideredrelatively modernly in like the
last 20 years of like.
Oh, there's more to this pieceof land.
Hannah (26:06):
Oh shit we fucked up.
Jonathan (26:08):
Than just what there is now.
So they've actually created abeautiful memorial, but there's
so much more to that.
Courtney (26:16):
Yeah, again, that's where culture and race comes
into play again, where I said Ifind myself sitting here as a
white woman like, well, wouldthat have ever happened to my
ancestors for being white?
I don't.
I just don't think so.
No, probably not.
And that's so incrediblyheartbreaking.
That's building a building ontop of it, because at some point
in the development you had tohave known what was there,
(26:36):
whether it was on record orwhether it was like visible to
the eye at some point, which itmust have been.
Hannah (26:41):
Hey, this is a cemetery, but I, I think when you so,
even on to the not trained eye.
When you look at bones, I thinkit's very easy for anyone
that's educated to see thedifference between bones of a
white individual and a blackindividual you talked about that
in an episode a few episodesback, yeah, when you were
(27:01):
getting really into the bone.
Courtney (27:02):
I forget which book it was that you had read, or maybe
it was a documentary, but youdid a really good episode.
Hannah (27:09):
I think it was that I got into yeah, I believe it was
that one.
So that's really sad becausethey must have had some type of
doctor of anthropology in somerespects to look at them and
that's just really sad yeah, youhad to have known.
Courtney (27:26):
You had to have known when you disturbed the first set
, especially when you call it.
What did you say?
Jonathan (27:30):
it was like the enslaved people's cemetery yeah,
I'm trying to remember what itwas actually, what it's labeled,
but when you come out ofchamber street cemetery uh,
chamber street subway station inlower manhattan it's like
enslaved's cemetery.
Hannah (27:44):
Do you know where the bones went after all that?
Jonathan (27:47):
They're still there, they're still underneath it.
Courtney (27:49):
It's on the out.
Jonathan (27:50):
What they did was they built on top of it until they
tore buildings down, maybe inthe 80s or 90s, and then they
discovered through archaeologythat it was actually a cemetery.
Now, this is not the only placein manhattan that has a
cemetery for black individualsthat's built upon.
(28:10):
When you think about um goingfurther north in manhattan,
there's actually a cemeterywhich is currently under a um,
like a, like a car repair garage.
Courtney (28:26):
At least the courthouse had some kind of
merit.
Jonathan (28:29):
And there's actually there's whole historians who
actually go there and theyactually have all sorts of
events next to this garage thatsay, like you know, black
individuals from our ancestrywere buried here in the 19th
century and, uh, they'reunderneath this concrete, um,
(28:50):
but it's been built on top of aterrible resting place, all
those wrenches and things allday but what's wonderful is that
they're recognizing it yeah,and they're saying yeah, our
ancestors are under thisconcrete floor Right, because
it's not their fault that ithappened Right exactly.
But they're doing reallywonderful work, but of course
there's a business on top ofthem and what do you do?
(29:12):
Now.
Courtney (29:14):
Right, and they're just as entitled legally to that
land as the bones are.
At that point too.
Jonathan (29:18):
Exactly, but this is not the only place.
I mean, this is just Manhattan,but when you think about places
like Lanier Lake in north ofAtlanta, where they basically
drowned black neighborhoods inorder to build a lake north of
Atlanta, and where houses andcemeteries of a free black
(29:43):
community are buried under milesof water.
Oh my God.
And people now have theirsummer houses on top.
Hannah (29:51):
Oh God, that's sick, so gross, that's sick.
Jonathan (29:54):
But it's similar to what they did in Enfield
Massachusetts when they wantedto build a water for Quabbin,
but it was considered part ofprogress.
Courtney (30:05):
Yeah.
Jonathan (30:05):
But in the South it was very much influenced by well
, you're Black people and thisis a free neighborhood and
you're thriving economically.
We're going to choose this andwe're going to bury you, right.
Courtney (30:21):
With the.
Quabbin.
It was more chosengeographically.
From my understanding, theQuabbin is an area that I've
always been really fascinated by.
But I do believe there werewhite communities, or at least
mixed communities, that wereunderneath it, but it was quite
a few communities that they justcame in one day and were like
hey, guess what, you don't livehere anymore.
Jonathan (30:36):
You're chosen yeah.
Courtney (30:37):
And there are actual ruins of things underneath the
Quabbin.
Absolutely.
The way that we treat differentpopulations of people is just,
I don't know in the afterlifetoo.
I was thinking about the wholeconversation we were having
about how a lot of the statehospitals and state schools that
existed all across new englandand other areas too but new
england had a lot of them.
Most of the graveyards that youcan find are completely
(31:00):
unmarked fields where there'seither no markers at all telling
you that a person's lifeamounted to being there, or it's
this tiny little square that'slike the size of half of an
index card with a number on ityeah a number somebody's life
amounted to, a patient's lifeamounted to a number of where
their body fell, and that, to me, there's so many ways you can
(31:22):
get involved.
Being in massachusetts, there'sa lot of organizations that work
to hey, we're going to getnames put on these, or hey,
we're going to get these bodiesmoved or something, or at least
some kind of memorial put in.
And I always am interested inthat kind of work because to me,
especially for that, that hitsmy heart deep.
The patients, like theirpatient number and their family,
doesn't even know where theyare.
Hannah (31:42):
They're just in a field, someplace some of them all in
one grave and, I think, alsounderstanding, like with our
field, courtney, you know, withindividuals that may have some
mental deficiency in some way orjust being different.
I mean, we're all different inour own ways, right?
So many of these people havetaught me so many freaking
(32:05):
things.
It's, it's, it's appalling tome how they would be the people
kids, adults that I've known.
For them have to be a number,cause I think of them as a name.
Right, that's how far we comeas a society, which I appreciate
, but I can't see theseindividuals just being a number
(32:25):
in a graveyard Like that wouldbreak my heart, because I think
they have a lot to teach us.
They're a part of society andthey should be a part of who we
are as humanity, as a whole andthey're people, I think that's
the biggest thing for me is thatwhen you look and you do
research, so many families areimpacted by mental health crises
.
Courtney (32:45):
Every single person in most rooms has either we were
talking about this earlier, thethree of us has been in therapy
or on-psychotic type of drugs.
Uh, you know, it's not uncommonand it very easily could have
happened to any one of ourfamilies, to any one of us
sitting in this room.
We're all blessed by thesituations we were born into and
by the choices that we've madeand just who we are that we
(33:07):
didn't end up right, which Ifeel like just what it is to me
there's no excuse for I can't.
I can't come up with any excusein my head of why these people
don't have names.
They were a person the wholetime they were there.
They had admission paperworkthat had their name on it, that
had their date of birth on it,that had their social security
number on it.
There's no excuse for thereason why they ended up being
(33:28):
amounted to numbers.
Um, and I feel like it breaksmy heart that as a society, I
think we're moving back towardsthat.
I think for a while,deinstitutionalization was a
huge movement.
We were going in such a greatdirection.
We were looking at halfwayhouses, we were looking at
community living and now, all ofa sudden, I'm seeing things on
the news and I'm like we'regoing right back to these state
(33:51):
funded, not enough people totake care of people, poor level
of treatment, and I just I thinkthat has a lot to do with our
presidential party candidate.
Hannah (34:02):
It does now um where it's like let's just defund
everything that's been helpingour society, why they were
funded in the first placeexactly.
We're spending too much money.
Courtney (34:12):
No, this money was going towards people and
individuals and families thatneeded it, special education
being defunded, I mean all of itis just it breaks my heart
because there are so manypopulations of people who end up
in these situations.
We just we talked about it withsoldiers.
Hannah (34:28):
we talked about it with the people, unfortunately, in
manh Manhattan who ended upburied underneath buildings, and
I just and I think also talkingabout different demographics,
like oh well, this is happeningbecause you know, if you look at
the percentages, they they'remostly in jail.
Well, ok, why?
Courtney (34:45):
Well, why Don't get me started on the American jail
system too?
Because rehabbing people is notwhat we do.
Hannah (34:49):
No, it's not what we do.
And if you look at them likeokay, they're mostly in there
because of X, y and Z, likethere's reasons why this is
happening, and you call themcongo ghettos and whatever, but
this is the society problem.
This isn't just their problem,this is our problem.
Courtney (35:04):
Like 50% of jails, are people who needed mental health
treatment.
Yes, which is if you had anappropriate mental health system
, even if they ended up on thewrong side of the law, and you
were able to help them get theirmedications right, get them
into therapy.
Hannah (35:18):
Right Medications, therapy, everything.
Courtney (35:20):
They'd be a functioning part of society.
Hannah (35:22):
Exactly Also, and they're not getting it.
Courtney (35:24):
The people who get arrested for something and then
two years later they make itlegal to do that thing, to do
that thing, and I'm like, could,can we come up, can we?
There are murderers in there.
Can we go get that guy forselling pot?
Hannah (35:34):
back out of jail, please , for the love of god.
Oh we're having a rape againsta white and a black man, but the
reason the white guy got out isbecause he had enough money to
that.
That doesn't make any sense.
It's sick.
It's, it's sick and terribleand I feel like we're getting
off track from what we weretalking about, but it's good
conversation.
Courtney (35:51):
I feel like it's not a lot of places.
You can go in a place with freespeech that you can go to
actually say the observationsthat you make, and it's um, I
don't know.
If somebody hears it and it'snot for them, then that's,
that's okay.
But we're gonna speak our truthour job is to just expose people
(36:13):
to different information thanwhat their biases might have.
And I always tell peoplechallenge your biases.
When you start to feelsomething about a certain
population of people or things,the best thing you can do is
challenge it, learn more aboutit.
Go meet with somebody who fitsinto that stereotype that you're
judging and ask them questions,figure out how they live and
why they do things.
And if you're not comfortabledoing that, then that's how they
(36:35):
feel every day.
So if it's uncomfortable foryou that one day, that's pretty
much their every day tales fromthe cryptids.
Oh okay, very much me not cryptocryptids it's important
information there the ogobogomonster Oogie boogie.
Hannah (36:51):
That's how I love, oogie boogie.
So the Ogobogo is sometimesreferred to as Canada's Loch
Ness monster, and sightings goback to the 1800s Lurking in the
cold waters of BritishColumbia's Oconagan Lake.
He was called Nataka or LakeDemon by First Nations peoples.
They say he was once a man whogot possessed by a demon and
(37:15):
then murdered another man, sothe gods condemned him to live
forever as a serpent.
He got the name ogobogo from a1924 english music hall song
called the ogobogo the funny foxtrot.
Jonathan (37:27):
okay, weird okay, there have been numerous.
I don't know if that's entirelyclear, but yeah, I'm confused
there have been numerouseyewitness accounts over the
years.
Hannah (37:37):
One of the most famous took place 1947, when several
boaters saw the monster.
At the same time, according toa man named mr k, ogobogo had a
long, sinuous body, 30 feet inlength, consisting of about five
undulations.
What's an undulation?
Courtney (37:53):
that sounds hot it sounds phallic, apparently
separated from a long, sinuousbody five.
That's really got me thinkingwho's?
Hannah (38:03):
gonna say let's stop that they're gifted monster
apparently separated from eachother by about a two foot space,
oh boy, in which that part ofthe undulations would have been
underwater.
There appeared to be a forkedtail, of which only one half
came about above the water.
From time to time the wholething submerged and came up
(38:25):
again, so that sounds like ithad multiple boo-boos, I guess
you would call it.
Courtney (38:32):
I'm sorry.
How do you spell the wordundulations?
Hannah (38:37):
It is U-N-D-U-L-A-T-I-O-N-S.
Courtney (38:43):
That's what I typed in , but the dictionary response is
an action.
Jonathan (38:49):
Yeah, it's undulations .
It's like the up and down.
Courtney (38:55):
Like what is it?
Jonathan (38:56):
as a noun.
What's the name of the monsteragain?
Hannah (38:59):
the monster is the ogobo what's the monster?
Jonathan (39:04):
in the nightmare before christmas.
Okay, this sounds like yes,it's also something they ripped
off the loch ness monster thissounds like the Oogie Boogie.
Hannah (39:10):
It also sounds like they ripped off the Loch.
Courtney (39:12):
Ness Monster.
Yeah, this sounds fake.
Hannah (39:14):
O-G-O-P-O-G-O Ogo Pogo.
Courtney (39:18):
They can't convert me.
I'm a Nelly.
I'm all about the Loch NessMonster.
That's what I'm about.
Hannah (39:23):
Oh, and see, the last number was what 94.
Yeah, you already did that one.
Jonathan (39:35):
That was you did that one.
That was the terracotta.
That's so weird what?
Courtney (39:37):
look how good you are.
That's a happy evening, wanders.
Yes, happy evening wanders.
Almost assassinated presidentabraham lincoln in august 1864
okay a would-be assassin tookaim at lincoln's head, but the
bullet went straight through histall top hat and missed his
head completely.
Jonathan (39:55):
Girl.
Courtney (39:55):
That's why you wear a tall hat.
They should really bring thoseback into fashion.
Jonathan (39:59):
Accessories are everything.
Courtney (40:01):
And then they had a different one under the same
category General Ulysses Grant.
Less than a year later, onApril 14, 1865, lincoln was
killed.
He had his famous hat with him,but it was sitting on the floor
Bastards.
But it could have been evenworse.
Lincoln had invited GeneralGrant and his wife Julia to
accompany him and Mrs Lincoln toFord's Theater.
(40:23):
The Grants declined.
Had his assassination plot goneaccording to plan Carl Sifakis
writes in the Encyclopedia ofAssassinations, john Wilkes
Booth would have killed not onlythe president but a future
president as well.
Jonathan (40:36):
No way, general Ulysses S Grant.
I didn't know that.
Courtney (40:39):
Why didn't the Grants go?
Jonathan (40:40):
That's interesting.
Courtney (40:41):
Because Julia Grant detested Mary Lincoln.
Jonathan (40:44):
Oh well, girl, she had issues.
Courtney (40:47):
A few weeks earlier, while touring Grant's
headquarters together, marysnubbed Julia so many times in
front of so many importantpeople that Julia refused to
spend another night in Mary'scompany.
Wow, grant biographer William SMcKeeley writes, was left to
make the president the mostclassic and limp of excuses.
He couldn't go because of thechildren.
Oh, my gosh.
(41:09):
Moral of the story wear a tallhat, and Abe Lincoln is also my
favorite president.
Don't know why, but he alwayshas been.
Hannah (41:14):
Oh, that's Rob's favorite president.
Of course it, rob.
Get out of my head.
Rob loves Abe Lincoln, okay.
Courtney (41:20):
Oh, this one's in Spanish.
What La Historia de Esperanto.
Jonathan (41:28):
The history of hope.
Courtney (41:30):
I don't know, that's all it says.
I don't have anything inEnglish here.
Esperanto is a language createdin 1887.
The history of hope.
I don't know, that's all itsays.
I don't have anything inEnglish here.
Esperanto is a language createdin 1887 by Lazarus Ludwig
Zamenhof, an idealistic28-year-old Polish
ophthalmologist.
He was troubled that his fellowEuropeans deeply mistrusted
(41:51):
each other.
If only they spoke the samelanguage he, he figured they
could begin to see eye to eye.
Zamenhoff came up with asimplified hybrid version of all
the romance languages, withonly 16 rules of grammar and no
irregular verbs.
English has 728, in case you'rewondering irregular verbs.
Yes, oh, he published hislanguage under the pseudonym dr
esperanto, which translates asone who hopes.
(42:13):
It may sound like a great idea,but after more than a century
of lobbying, the language ofpeace has failed to take hold.
The dream isn't dead, though.
Even today, there are thousandsof esperanto speakers organized
into clubs in more than 100countries around the world.
In 1966, a low-budget horrormovie called incubus was filmed
(42:33):
entirely in esperanto oh wait,okay, yes, yes, no, please, I'll
me wait, just keep goingdirected by the outer limits
creator, leslie stevens.
The movie was a weird crossbetween a gothic melodrama and
an art film.
But stevens didn't useesperanto to promote the
language of peace.
He thought it would give thefilm an eerie atmosphere.
(42:55):
It bombed.
Final note Incubus starred33-year-old William Shatner.
He didn't speak Esperanto,though the cast learned their
lines phonetically.
Shatner's next role CaptainJames T Kirk.
Hannah (43:08):
Wow, okay, sorry, I guess I was thinking about the
band, not the.
Courtney (43:11):
Yeah, that's 100% what you were thinking about.
Jonathan (43:13):
Okay.
Hannah (43:16):
I thought I knew the movie.
Courtney (43:17):
Wow.
So, that was interesting.
That one wasn't as interestingas the other ones.
I'm still really taken back bythe fact that Abe Lincoln was
almost assassinated.
Jonathan (43:28):
I know, and that you know, kind of fell over the
cliff because he was Right.
Courtney (43:32):
It really blows a hole in my story about well, if you
haven't been struck by lightning, you know you can't be struck
in the same place twice.
It really kind of ruins thattheory I had.
Going on Like with BenjaminFranklin, Just in general I
always like to say well, youknow, things don't strike twice,
but maybe they do.
This is back to that thirdtime's a charm situation, I
guess, Maybe.
Okay, Well, that was fun,Weirdo that was so much fun.
Jonathan (43:55):
Thank you both.
Courtney (43:56):
Thank you for coming again, tolerating us having a
beverage while we read someinteresting things, yes, and get
off on tangent discussions.
Hannah (44:07):
Yeah, that's the part I love about podcasting is the off
kilter, don't know where it'sgoing.
Courtney (44:14):
Conversations and then Rob hates them, so he has to
cut them all out.
Jonathan (44:20):
Well, good night Wanderers.
Good night Wanderers.
Hannah (44:22):
Bye, bye.
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme Hannah and co-hosted by me
Courtney.
Jonathan (44:30):
And it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.
Hannah (44:32):
Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
(44:54):
wandering.
Thank you.
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