Dr. Katherine Ramsland + Tracy Ullman: The Serial Killer’s Apprentice

Acclaimed forensic psychologist Katherine Ramsland was one of my first guests on this show. She detailed her time with serial killer Dennis Rader. She’s back, along with co-author Tracy Ullman, to tell me about their book The Serial Killer’s Apprentice. It’s the complicated story centered on the accomplice of the serial killer known as The Candyman.  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This story contains adult content and language, along with references
to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
One after the other. Between nineteen seventy and nineteen seventy three,
six kids from miss Junior High School going missing. Their
fellow students start to look into this and say, these
aren't runaways, but the adults in their lives are saying
that's what the police told us.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor
in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the
podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,
research for my many audio and book projects has taken
me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down
with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

(00:59):
and podcast pastors who have investigated and reported on notorious
true crime cases. This is about the choices writers make,
both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into
the unpublished details behind their stories. Acclaimed forensic psychologist Catherine
Ramslin was one of my first guests on this show.

(01:21):
That's when she detailed her time with serial killer Dennis Raider.
Now she's back along with co author Tracy Ullman to
tell me about their book, The serial Killer's Apprentice. It's
the complicated story centered on the accomplice of the serial
killer known as the candy Man. Tell me the origin

(01:41):
story of how you came across this story for listeners
who don't know where did this come from?

Speaker 3 (01:47):
Well, I can talk about first what I thought about
the story, and then I want to hand it to Tracy,
because to her is how I got the opportunity. My
original sense of the story was from a classic true
crime book from nineteen seventy four that supposedly told the
real story of the candy Man, Dean Coral and his

(02:10):
accomplices Elma, Wayne Henley Junior, and David Brooks. And I
had in mind that was a true story. I had
written about it a few times, and then I saw
an interview with Henley on a video called The Collectors,
and he seemed very reflective and interesting. But I didn't
do anything about it. I mean, I talked to other

(02:31):
serial killers, but I didn't really follow up with him.
And then when we finished production, I met Terracy and
a production crew. When we finished a production, they asked
me if I wanted to do another person. They named
some ideas that I didn't think would work, and immediately
Henley came to mind, and they said, well, Tracy already

(02:52):
has a relationship with him, so I'm going to hand
that over to Tracy because it was through her that
made this happen.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
And so basically Catherine and I were working on a
documentary for any about BTK and the book Confessions of
a Serial Killer that she had written, which was the
pretext for that limited series documentary. I always try to
have a little something that I'm working on independently. I
do a lot of gun for hire work, but this

(03:21):
was one that actually came off of a much larger project,
a tenure investigation I had done into John Wayne Gacy
that became a series for Peacocks Streaming called John Wayne
Gacy DUBN Disguise. And so as I was working on that,
I called Wayne Henry. I was hooked up through a friend,
and I said, I know now that John Wayne Gacy

(03:43):
had accomplices, and I realized that you were an accomplice
to Dean Coral. Can you tell me about the accomplice dynamic?
And he started to talk to me and I said, wait,
you don't sound quite like a traditional accomplice, and what
you're telling me, it just seems like you cross a
line between being a victim as well as somebody who's

(04:06):
assisting this serial killer. And so as I dove in
with him and I started to record conversations with him,
it occurred to me that not only was he someone
that had been sucked in at the age of fourteen,
he didn't start killing them, but he had been kind
of seduced, but that I was discovering simultaneously that eleven

(04:27):
of the victims had appeared in pornography, which changes Dincor
from being kind of a lone wolf just an anomaly
that happens to be in you know, Houston, Texas, to
somebody who needs a distribution network, somebody who's working with
people who are publishing pornography. I realized that's kind of
circumstantially connected. But at the same time, it meant to

(04:49):
me that Omoy Henley was part of something much larger
that he might not have realized, especially at the age
of fourteen. And so, you know, in the previous documentary,
we started making the connection between John Wayne Gacy and
a man named John David Norman who ran a huge
sex trafficking room, and we knew that that case was

(05:11):
connected to the ring, but then I wanted to look
more thoroughly into how the ring affected being coral. And eventually,
as Catherine started to talk to Elma Wayne Henley, we
got a lot more information that he had never related
to anyone in fifty years. And so I'll turn it
back to you, Catherine.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
Well, when I first talked with him, he immediately said,
I don't want anybody talking me out of my responsibility,
and I'm one hundred percent culpable. And I thought, okay,
you know, I'm not here to talk you into or
out of anything. But it came clear fairly quickly that
he had never had any therapy. He didn't really know

(05:49):
anything about our research into the teenage brain and its
vulnerability to adult predators. He didn't really know the dynamics
of all this. So little by little began to introduce
into some psychological concepts and he began to listen and
start thinking, because he would always give some latitude for
other people who had been leveraged into things, but he

(06:12):
would never give it to himself. And so it really
took months, but he began to understand that he's not
fully culpable since he was a kid, and this is
a very clever and sophisticated adult predator who leveraged him
and tricked him into it. And he did try getting
out four times. That was something the other true crime

(06:33):
book never even addressed. It just made it look like
Henley was in this, wanted to be in this, sacrificed
his friends. In fact, he was trying to get out,
and he is the only accomplice to a serial killer
to have killed the killer to end it.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Well, let me ask you, doctor Ramsland, what is your
experience with accomplices who are adults. I have not dealt
much with the complices and what that dynamic is the
Only thing that I feel like I've heard is that
there's usually a dominant and then an not dominant person.
And I know you're you're talking about the nuances with
a teenager as an accomplice, but what's your overall experience

(07:13):
with the accomplice.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
Well, first of all, we haven't studied accomplices very much,
so this book served as an opportunity and I was
able to categorize them in a variety of ways. The
adults tend to be co creators of the crimes that
they're committing their partners, their equal partners. Even if one
is dominant the other submissive, they still both want to
do this, So there's no it's not really about being

(07:38):
compliant or you know, reluctant in any way. So that's
one type of team, and that's typically what we can
see with adults. You see that in romantic couples have
become criminal teams. So I talked about a bit about
that in the book, and then I talked about forced accomplices,
like you know, a gun to your head, you will
do this with me or else, and that's Nolson not

(08:01):
what we have here. And then I talked about the
dominant and submissive and in some cases the submissive complying,
not wanting to do this, never would have done this
on their own, but within the dynamic of the relationship,
the chemistry between them, they will comply and hope that
somehow it will go away or you know, and often,

(08:24):
and I coined a term temporary psychopath for this, because
they get into it in like a pocketive reality, into
a situation where they'll do things that are psychopathic or horrible,
and then when they're out of it, out from under
the influence of the predator. They're horrified that this isn't me.

(08:44):
I would have never done this. But you can see
how they got leveraged into it, how they changed their behavior,
their disposition, their morality even to be able to do
what they're doing, and sometimes as a survival mechanisms, times
because they're in love with the partner. It's different for
different types of teams, but we can see with Henley

(09:07):
Brooks seemed to be more attuned to it. He was
the first partner brought in that we know about, and
he actually brought Henley as a victim, as an intended victim,
but that didn't work out. So then Coral saw all
the benefits with Henley. He was plugged into a number
of different communities with these boys that interested Coral, and

(09:30):
so he then began using him and he kind of
tricked him into it and then leveraged him like now
you're in. Now you're involved, and there's nothing you can
do about it, because if you turn me in, you'll
go down with me and you'll get the death penalty.
So you have you have different dynamics with these different
types of teams, and it's really the first time someone

(09:50):
studied it.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
I was just thinking, what is the importance of drawing
these distinctions? Killers or killers? Is what a lot of
people would say. Why do we care what hendling whether
he was drawn into something, you know, he really participated
willingly or not. I'm just thinking, from somebody else's point
of view, why is it important do you all think
that there isn't that distinction?

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Because if you are a psychologists or counselor clergy whatever,
working with someone who's coming out of a relationship like this,
you see that they actually can be changed back. They
had a base, a moral base from which they were
pulled and brought into this relationship, and they can return

(10:38):
to that. So there's hope in terms of the kind
of psychological counseling you give them. And there's hope for
parents too whose child might end up in a situation
like this and then you know, an arrest happens, the
kid is brought into it, and parents and teachers as well.
They can also see here for some kind of redemption,

(11:03):
and we have seen it in some of these people
who've gotten out of this situation, served the prison time,
and were able to do something productive and beneficial and
really had you know, fall remarks for what they had done.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
And I certainly think there's a lot of black and
white thinking in true crime and people not wanting to
see that there are nuances. So I'm glad that we're
talking about this, Tracy. Where do we start with this story?
Is it when you know these men meet or what
do you think?

Speaker 2 (11:35):
I think that the story does start when Elmawayne Henley
is approached by David Brooks and he's thinking that this
is somebody that's kind of cool. He's not having the
easiest time in his life. His father is violent, his
parents are splitting up. He finds himself being the head
of the household. Elmiween Henley was brought up in a

(11:58):
religious family. His mother and grandmother were kind of the
base of that, and so he thought in life he
would grow up that he would be a minister, that
he would be a husband and a father, and he
was exploring that part of it. He also admitted to
being something of a hippie, so he was enjoying that

(12:20):
kind of culture. Nineteen seventy three in Houston, Texas. You've
got a lot going on in terms of NASA. You've
got a lot going on in terms of the oil industry.
You have a lot going on also in terms of
minority communities being kind of moved around so that they
can integrate schools, and so what you're seeing in Houston Heights,

(12:41):
which is a two and a half mile square area
of Houston, is kind of change. You've got a lot
of people who are working in the oil industry, a
lot of people who are supporting you know, NASA that
are living in these kind of middle class to lower
middle class communities. And then you've got Dean Coral. He's
running his own business. It's a family business that has

(13:01):
to do with candy. They're making it on the premises.
It's not a huge company, but at the same time,
it's like a lot of other little candy companies, you know,
cottage industries that were in this community. He works in,
you know, as an electrician during the day to make money,
and he has a girlfriend and he seems like a

(13:23):
very nice person and he's glad handing whoever decides to
come through. He tends to have a lot of boys
come through to you know, playpool with him. They're kind
of introduced to kind of his lifestyle through his candy,
which you know, if you are a young boy that
you would think this is the ultimate. I'm playing with

(13:45):
this adult. He's got this delicious candy. We're playing pool.
You know, I'm validated as this young man. Now, so
a lot of kids and this is across the street
from a junior high school. A lot of kids are
coming there, and nobody realized that dinkorl maybe not as
he appears. And so as children in the neighborhood start

(14:09):
to disappear, nobody quite knows what's going on. The police
are telling them these are runaways, but how could they
be runaways? And in fact Elma Wayne Henley, along with
his mother, goes looking for one of these boys, who's
a member I believe, of his church and who's his
same age. They go far and wide trying to look

(14:29):
for this boy. Nobody can find him, and one after
the other, between nineteen seventy and nineteen seventy three, six
kids from this junior high school go missing, and their
fellow students start to look into this and say, these
aren't runaways. But the adults in their lives are saying,
that's what the police told us. Where do you think

(14:50):
the reverence for the police comes from? I was just talking.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
I was reading an article about a woman who wrote
her book and it didn't even because of the culture
she came from, it, it didn't even occur to her
to talk to the police. Her family just never thought
that the police were worth kind of, you know, even
going to for safety. But where do you think in
this community the reverence for the police comes from.

Speaker 3 (15:12):
I didn't think there was reverence. They were pretty frustrated
with them, and especially one family actually hired a private
detective and he was run uptown by the police. Wow,
And they were told, don't you do this? So I
don't think it was reverence. It was just more what
else can we do? Who can we talk to beyond them?
And there was quite the accounting after it all was

(15:33):
said and done, that you were wrong, and one after
another our sons were murdered.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
Tell me a little bit about David Brooks. These young men.
So you've got Henley and David Brooks. They're both teenagers
when this is happening, right, Henley is fourteen when this starts.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
Yeah, David Brooks was twelve actually when he met Coral
and met him though Candy give me out hunks of
chocolate and whatnot. But David Brooks came also from a
broken family, but he had the misfortune of both parents
thinking he would come to no good, neither wanting to
have much to do with him. He's kind of at
loose ends. He was geeky. He had this long, stringy

(16:14):
blonde hair and these big eyeglasses and a very introverted
type of person. He was smoking dope and getting into trouble.
He had been arrested for a theft. So he's just
kind of this kid who was at odds with himself
and with everybody else. And Coral saw him and showed

(16:34):
him respect that he had never experienced before, treated him
like an adult, gave him place to stay, gave him gifts,
eventually had some sexual contact with them, and gave him
five or ten dollars. He had money in his pumpet
once when he discovered Coral. He came in and discovered
Coral with two kids tied to the bed naked. Coral said,

(16:58):
if you don't tell anyone, I'll give you a car,
which he did so. David Brooks, who had nowhere to
turn in his own family and was basically dismissed as
a loser, found solace with an adult male who gave
him a place to stay to live, food, money, a car.

(17:19):
He was an easy target and he fell right into it.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
And I'm assuming doctor Ramsel, and this is a story
that you've heard over and over again. I mean, just
throughout the decades, it doesn't seem to change. Maybe there's
more offerings from someone who's grooming, you know, through Internet
or pornography or whatever it is, that the offerings might change,
But the grooming methods seem so consistent.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Is that right?

Speaker 3 (17:42):
Because they work. I have one study in my book
of these predators who agreed to talk and talked about
the kind of person they would look for. The kid
who seems vulnerable, who seems introverted. It seems like their
home life is so great, or they're not doing so
well in school, and they're in they yield to gift
giving and joke telling and you know, such things just

(18:06):
to have a friend. Just you can see their neediness
and their vulnerability, and these predators develop an eye for it.
It's like it's like I talked about being like the
quiet eye in sports, where they hone themselves so well
they can see the ball so vividly as it's coming
over the net. Or through the court. Same for the predators.

(18:27):
They are always vigilant for who is vulnerable, and they
know not just to groom the child, but to groom
the community to believe that they are good people. They're
scout leaders or youth ministers or teachers or you know,
somebody who can be trusted with their child and they

(18:48):
are doing parents of favor by spending time with the child,
and that they look for those situations and the reason
the grooming is the same over and overs it's working.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
Is there anything in Dean Coral's background that would have indicated,
you know, that any of this was even possible. He's married,
How is this even logistically possible for him?

Speaker 2 (19:11):
He wasn't married. He had a girlfriend, Betty Hawkins, and
Betty Hawkins was a divorced woman with a child. So
you can see how he would want to kind of
validate his life by saying, but I have a woman
I'm looking to engage, I have a woman with a child.
I'm looking to be this man. And when you look
at his mother, who had a variety of different marriages,

(19:35):
a lot of different father figures that he really didn't
get along with in his home life, and Dean Coral
from the outside would look to be somebody who kind
of survived all that, who definitely had his differences with
his stepfather's. But I mean he went into the family business.
He's a member of the community for sure, so I

(19:56):
think that, you know, nobody was looking too deeply into him,
but he accepted him at face value. And in fact,
his mother, once these crimes were discovered and her son
is dead, she said, Elma, Wayne Henley and David Brooks
set my son up. They were evil and she really
couldn't accept that. All along, Dean Coral was on a

(20:20):
one way trip to his demise.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
Doctor Ramslin, would you categorize from what you know about
Dean Coral as somebody with psychopathy?

Speaker 3 (20:29):
Well, he certainly say this, There's no doubt about that.
The kinds of torture instruments he invented and engaged with.
I had a torture board. Sometimes he would tie two
boys to it, and in one case he told two friends,
if you fight each other, the survivor I will free.
That's psychological torture. But he also raped them. He also

(20:51):
stuck things into them, he electrocuted them. He did all
kinds of horrific things. To them too, sometimes for days
at a time, hold them there. So he's certainly a
state is no remorse whatsoever for what he did. We
don't know enough about him to put a diagnosis on him,
but we do know that his behavior has a lot

(21:12):
of psychopathic overtones. For sure.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
The idea behind an accomplice seems so risky. What would
motivate Dean Coral. It seems like he has a steady
kind of way of getting kids in, drawing kids in
with the candy. Why bring in an accomplice and take
that kind of risk.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
It wasn't the candy was really for little kids. Later
that he'd pick out boys and bring them to his
place where a pool table and motorcycle. He'd take them
to the beach and whatnot. However, an adult hanging out with
kids is exposed, and so if he could send out
accomplices to go pick them up, that actually lessens his exposures.

(21:51):
So in the way, it's a risk, but apparently in
his mind it was a lesser risk to have accomplices
that he thought he could control. I mean, he believed
he had full control over them through the kind of
leveraging he used, and he talked about and this is
where we could turn it back to Tracy. He talked
about being part of a syndicate of these traffickers who

(22:12):
would be well aware of any move these boys made,
and if they did something and that would turn on
him in some way, they would pay a price, and
so of their families. So he had them convinced that
they were always being watched and potentially in danger if
they didn't do what he said.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Why don't we talk a little bit about how Henley
is brought in by Brooks and introduced to Chorrel and
then the evolution of the relationship, which I hate to
even use that word, but that's what it was. So
where do we pick up there? Henley is fourteen.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
We were very blessed to have the attention of Wayne's mom,
Mary Henley, and Mary Henley is the same age as
Dean Coral and so when she meets Dean Coral, she
thinks that he's slightly immature, he's kind of goofy. He
pulls up and he lays on the horn on his
you know van that he's driven to her house and

(23:12):
she walks out and she says, you don't haunk the
horn at my house. You you come and talk to
me if you want to hang out with my young son.
And so this is a man who kind of ingratiated himself,
not only with Mary Henley, but with her mother, and
so the two of them kind of saw him as,
you know, this goofy geek. They did not see any

(23:32):
form of danger. At one point, he was trying to
get his van out of the driveway and she had
to show him how to do it. So he had
this kind of level of not entirely functioning, and she
just saw that as like, oh, I'm going to take
pity on this man who's my age, who doesn't seem
to be adulting. And so from there, you know, you've

(23:54):
got the family, the Henleys, who are kind of falling apart.
They're doing the best that they possibly can. Mary Henley's
father dies not long before that. She divorces her husband,
but there's still a lot of domestic violence issues in
the background for them. On the other hand, with David Brooks,
his father's actually quite a well known contractor in the area.

(24:18):
You know, he's not poor. And why it's acceptable for
David Brooks to live with Dean Coral is a huge
question mark. Who thought that this was an appropriate relationship.
But Brooks doesn't come with a mother and a grandmother
that kind of validates his relationship. He's kind of an
odd one out living with Dean Coral when Henley brings

(24:41):
this kind of familial relationship and so as he gets
more involved and as he's made more of the man
of the house in his own family, Dean Coral convinces him,
let's do this burglary. If you want to show me
what you're made of, you're going to do this for me.
So he goes and burglarizes a property. He brings the

(25:03):
stuff to Dean Coral and he's thinking to himself, I'm
going to make some money for my family. I've been
working at a gas station, but this is going to
net me more and it's going to be easier. And
he's also ingratiating himself with this adult who has started by,
you know, making kind of dirty jokes with him. He's
a cool cat. He seems like he's hanging and so,

(25:27):
you know, Wayne wants that acceptance. He hasn't had his
father validate him. And again, much like with David Brooks,
Dean Coral sees his weakness and he fills that space.
And so but after the burglary, Dean Coral starts to
lean into that and say, now you're an accomplice. You're

(25:47):
somebody who has committed a crime that I know about.
And this is how he leverages Elma, Wayne Henley, Who's
if you think about when you were fourteen, like I
really didn't have a clue about the whiter world, and
if you think about where he doesn't quite understand anything.
I mean, I don't think the entire nation was o
fay with the idea of a large sex trafficking ring.

(26:11):
So how is he ever going to understand these concepts
that this is something much larger that's kind of hovering
around his existence? And so I'll turn it back to
Catherine because I know, I know you're better at talking
about this space.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
Well, the one thing I wanted to add to that
is not only had Wayne's father left with them, an
abusive alcoholic left the family and not paid any child support,
he also had shot at Wayne twice to kill him.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
And so this is a kid who you know, is
trying to figure out what to do, and Mary Henley
sees a big brother coming along in the form of
Dean Coral. Like, you know, that's helpful because she's got
three other boys she's got to be taken care of
who are younger than Wayne, and to her mind, at
least he's got, you know, a male, adult, male figure

(27:00):
in his life who replaces this violent male who might
come around at any time and commit some kind of violence.
So we can excuse her in some ways because Korl
was an affable, good natured guy that just seemed like
he really liked hanging out with these boys.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
I have to say I'm a little surprised that after
this burglary, Korl went to a threat rather than like
deepening the seduction or do I have that completely wrong.
It just seems like it was like, no, you're staying
and here's why, and rather than like really really grooming.
You know.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
It took a while. He first talked with Wayne when
Wayne was fourteen and kind of sized him up and
as a victim first of all, and told David to
bring him on in. That didn't go well. Wayne was
able to foil that attempt, and then Coral began to
bring him in, like take him for rise in his car.

(27:58):
There was a bit of seduction ahead of time, and
then start talking about the human trafficking and saying, you know,
there are these people who do buy and sell, you know, others,
and some of these boys, they would we could pick
them up, sell them for a lot of money, and
they'd be taking over to California to be someone's pool boy.
Everybody wins, so you get some money, I get some money.

(28:20):
They have a much better life that they stuck around
here in the Houston Heights. And he worked on Wayne,
and worked on Wayne until Wayne thought well that actually
does sound like it's okay. And he then helped to
bring in a hitchhiker and that's really where he got
leverage at that point. Now he's known Coral for I
think I was a year before he actually gets involved

(28:44):
in that series of a crime. He had done some
of the petty crimes earlier, but in this case, he
brings in a hitchhiker thinking Quarrel's going to sell him
to California, and then he finds out he killed him,
and now Coral says, and you were part of it
at and there's no getting out, Tracy.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
Can we go back to the first time that Henley
encounters Quarrel, when Brooks brings him in and doctor Ramselin
just said, you know that the encounter doesn't go well,
and the intention is at first for him to be victim.
I don't know how graphic it is, but you can
you kind of tell me what what ends up happening
with that scene.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Actually, Catherine, I might need to refer back to you,
because is this the time where King Coral lifts up
a knife. Yes, and he tries to see what the
reaction will be. You're better at describing that story.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
David tells him, tells Wayne he's kind of passed the
test and we're going to meet behind the church. Don't
tell anyone where you're going because there's a big, big,
top secret meeting and the syndicate is is kind of
checking you out as a potential person who could who
could go up in the ranks. And so he he says,
meete us fan the church. So Wayne goes. They pick

(29:53):
him up, take him to Coral's apartment. They drive around
because they don't want him to know exactly where carel
lives and they're intending he's going to be one of
these victims. So if they bring him to Quarrel's apartment
and there's like a breakfast bar, kind of area where
they're leaning over talking to David disappears. Quarrel then pulls
out a large knife, like a hunting knife, and starts

(30:17):
coming around the bar to Wayne and talking to him
about what would you do? Would would you be able
to if somebody discovered you and you really had to
do something about eliminating a witness? What are you up
to this? Could you do this? And he's slowly, slowly
making his way in the position he would always get
in when he'd tackle a boy to the ground and

(30:39):
bind him. So he's about to do that. David comes
out of the back room and says, you didn't tell
anyone where you were, did you, And quick thinking Wayne says,
I told my mother, and Coral backs off tells David
to take him home and that was the end of that.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
For a church kid, he has some street smarts on
him a little bit.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
That's great.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
Well, he said, he's a pretty smart guy. He was
probably he was a very engaging person to interview because
he reads a lot. He's very self educated. So yeah,
he was thinking like it just felt wrong to him,
like and he doesn't like to be touched, and he
felt like Korl was about to come behind him, and
it was just giving him the creeps with his knife,

(31:21):
and he just realized here's his way out really quickly.
And he was probably lucky because and he actually had
told his mother, and he wasn't going to reveal that
to them because he didn't want them thinking he was
a silly little boy. But he told his mother everything,
so he had told her and it was just an
easy thing to say. I told my mother, I'm here.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Well, Tracy, let's go back to you know, there's the
burglary that's happening when he's fifteen, I guess. And then
we move forward to you know, he's bringing these these
boys in to what he thinks is going to be
sold to California and becoming you know, pool boys on
a lavish estate. I assume what is that's the moment
where he figures out that this is not what's happening

(32:03):
to these boys?

Speaker 3 (32:04):
Does he see something.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
Which friend of his Catherine did he bring in David A.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
Gary? It wasn't a string of boys. Is the hitchhiker?
Then he came over with a friend named Franka Gary,
and that's that's when he was told, you don't have
any control over.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
This and so basically this is a good friend of his,
Franka Geary, and he's thinking he's bringing Frank over for
the same opportunities that he has and that he's kind
of cutting him in. And I believe with a hitchhiker
and Catherine, if you could verify this is when Dean
Coral starts to propose, you know what, I'm going to
give you a cut of the money. And so we

(32:41):
from what we understood, he was getting two hundred dollars
for that victim. So that's a lot of money. That
kind of money during nineteen seventy one would buy a car,
you know, a used car, but still a car. And
so basically he's thinking to himself, Okay, I'm going to
cut my friend Frank ggury in. Frank Geary arrives and

(33:02):
Dean Coral turns the tables and he is coming after
Franka Geary and Emily Henley has to participate in this
in a way that he was absolutely not prepared to do.
And so at that point, not only does he realize
that Dean Coral is going to be able to kill
one of his friends, but that he is deeper and

(33:22):
deeper into this and he's trying to make sense out
of it because he is religious. He does believe in God,
and this is a point at which he starts to think, wait,
I'm not going to be able to get out of this,
and I'm losing my faith that anybody will pull me
out of this. And this is when his mind his

(33:43):
morals changed and I believe that he understood this is
what I'm going to be given in life.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
Well it was actually I'm just intervening a little bit
because he was David was told to take him home
so he wouldn't witness the murder of Frank Gar. But
he was told that's what happened to the hitchhiker, that's
just going to happen to this guy. And then not
much happened for about a month, and Wayne was then

(34:11):
brought in to kill that he had to do this
and that you know, his faith is he wrote in
how can God allow this? Now he has to step
to the plate and show that he can do it
with a kid that Kor wants to get rid of
because he's given him some trouble, and Wayne has to
do it is to strangle him. He can't do it

(34:32):
on his own because he's just a scronic kid. But
once it's done, he sits in the front room and
just says, if God doesn't strike me dead now, there
just can't be a God who cares about this, And
that was kind of the end of it for him.
And thereafter he falls into doing what kor wants him
to do because he doesn't know what else to do.

(34:54):
If he had gone to the police wanting about Franka Gary,
he thinks the police probably went I listened to him.
He's just a kid, and Korl as an adult. And
then there's the syndicate, and even if Korl gets arrested,
they're going to come after him too, and maybe his family.
So he has no resources and now he's in this
horrific position of I have actually murdered somebody.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Do we have a sense for whether Mary Henley had
a sense for anything going wrong in this time period,
since she knows her son so well.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
You know, by day I think that Elmer Wayne Henley
compartmentalized these things and he felt very responsible to his
mother and to his youngest brothers, and so he would
go about being the family man that he knew he
wanted or needed to be. And then as night came around,
he would make excuses, he would go back to Dean

(35:48):
Coral and this is what a lot of people talk about.
He kept going back to Dean Coral. Well, he was
under so much pressure and in terms of both you know,
getting a monetary reward as well as the manipulation and
threats he's getting from QORL, that he doesn't see much
option for what's going on. The one thing he does

(36:09):
start doing is he has these two men in his
life who are like extended uncles. They're not blood relations,
but they're people that he trusts. And he starts to say, look,
I'm in this terribly compromised position. This is what's been
going on, and I can tell you that even police
at this time didn't really have an imagination for what
was possible. How were these uncles going to know? So

(36:32):
they both refute him and say, you sound like you're insane,
you sound like you're on drugs, and they do not
try to help him, and eventually he does try to
tell Mary Henley. He writes down everything that's been happening
for him, and he gives her this note. This is
towards the very end. She looks at the note, she

(36:52):
reads it and she thinks my son has gone insane.
He definitely needs some type of psychological support. She rips
up the note and she said, I'm going to get
you help, therapeutic help, but doesn't validate the story, doesn't
offer to help him in any other way.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
When Henley draws in Franka Gary and this terrible thing happens,
does his family, you know, rattle the cages and say
we need this. You know, this is not a kid
who would have run away. We need to know what happened.
And the police ignore it. This is seems like a
neighborhood kid who would have been missed.

Speaker 3 (37:29):
He's one of those that they dismissed is to run away.
He was engaged to a girl, he had a job,
he was you know, still in school, and the police
didn't do anything.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
What happens next? What's kind of the big incident? Do
we go on for another year or two years?

Speaker 3 (37:45):
What happens?

Speaker 1 (37:46):
This just keeps happening.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
What happened when Wayne killed his first victim, Mark Scott?
He was still fifteen, just about to turn sixteen, and
he thought, okay, I've proven myself. This is awful bath
that's got to be the word. And then the next month,
there's two together. Two boys are brought in together, and
he's faced with now you're going to help us with

(38:07):
two of them, And that's the point at which I
think he realized I'm not getting out of this. This
is not easy. There were a few more that year.
He tried to move away to another town where his
cousin lived, but then David told him, you know, Dean's
eyeing your younger brother. So we thought I got to

(38:28):
get back to Houston and make sure I keep an
eye on this. Then he tries to join the Navy
and he doesn't get in as well. He's trying any
which way he can to get out of this. When
he finds he can't, he just falls into it. I'm
his henchman. I have to do this. And there's the
summer of nineteen seventy three before he killed Kral. That

(38:51):
entire summer is just one after another, and not just
with using David and Wayne. Sometimes Coral what acts own
and go get a victim. I mean, when we hear
the figure twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty nine, these two
accomplices weren't involved in all of those. Coral would often
have done his own two and We don't really even

(39:13):
know the final number because one victim was found on
the beach unrelated to any of the burial sites, so
we don't know if there might have been more. He
talked to David Brooks about having killed in California. We
haven't tied him to a victim there or more victims,
so we actually don't know his complete victim toll. And
David was involved with more than Wayne, but Wayne during

(39:37):
the summer the year nineteen seventy three was really very
active and just felt like I've tried to get out
and I don't see a way.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
I know you all probably know more about Henley than
you know about Brooks. Can you tell me the difference,
But I don't know if it's the psychological difference between
these two teenagers who are working for this terrible man.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
Yeah. I when I look at David Brooks, I think
he was really because he had no parental support, nothing
from his family. He was made to feel like a
total loser. He was a dropout. He sold drugs in
the park to other kids, and he did nothing to
stop coral. He overlooked, he saw murders, he brought kids

(40:20):
to him. He saw young like thirteen year olds in
Coral's room, and he would do nothing. He helped him,
He moved with him and moved around with them. So
I see that being different from Wayne. I did it
since when David finally came in and confessed the place
and basically threw Wayne under the bus, I didn't see
any sense that he thought what Chorl did was wrong.

(40:43):
In fact, he said, well, he said to me, these
are boys that nobody cares about. They're just like hitchhikers
and runaways, and you can't dropouts that they're like losers.
Why does anybody care what happened to them? I mean,
these are the kinds of statements he would make, so
it shows that he really had no sense of concern

(41:04):
about what he was doing. He would not give interviews
to the media afterward, and he had a wife and child,
so it could be that he was shielding them. But
there was never a time in any of the statements
of police that he really expressed a sense of remorse.
And he certainly had opportunities when he was with Quorl

(41:25):
to do something before Wayne ever even came into it.
He could have told Wayne before he brought him in,
So there is a difference between them, and I see
David Brooks as being more of a youth at risk
for adult psychopathy in a way that I don't think
Henley was.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
He sounds angry, maybe just by being discorded by his
own family, and now he's happy to take it out
on these kids or watch somebody else do it.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
I think he just had a real lackadaisical attitude. He
was also a doper. I mean, he just didn't care
about much to Coral, you know, was killed and they
got together. Wayne says that they had talked about killing
Coral because they were worried he was really getting out
of control. And David was with Coral with his last victim,

(42:13):
which is a thirteen year old boy that he basically
snapped from the street out riding his bike, and David
brings him a pizza and things. Well, I gave him
a pizza, I mean that was that. Was there anything
else I could do for him? At least I was
nice to him. So that's the kind of memo set
he had of you know, whatever, this is Coral's thing,

(42:35):
Nobody's going to do anything about it. And so it's
not really anger so much as just I don't really
see beyond what's going to happen with my life? Even
though he had a wife and child, he had just
gotten married Tracy.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
This seems like this has gone on for three years, right?
Is it two years or three years?

Speaker 3 (42:53):
At this point, it's three years three years starting with Coral,
three years because he acted on his own first.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
So what is the next big incident? Does anything happen
before the murder takes place.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
So really, you know, it's almost spiraling out of control.
Dean Coral's telling his mother that he thinks something bad
is going to happen. He wants to move to Colorado
where she is. He's telling Wayne that he should come
with him, and Wayne is thinking maybe he's going to
take his friend to Ronda Williams because she's having a
bad home life. So there's just a lot of indication that,

(43:31):
you know, there's more upheaval than necessary. Dean Coral is
always receiving correspondence at a post office box, so neither
Wayne Henley nor David Brooks knows exactly what he's getting
in the mail. He keeps a lot secret from them,
and both of them get very paranoid about that. And
it's really when things come to a header where Wayne's

(43:55):
thinking he's going to So, first of all, Dean Coral says,
bring your friend Tim Curlely. I really like him. I
want to have sex with him. And Wayne brings Tim Curley,
but he also brings Rand to Williams. They've been partying
together at Tim's house. They're going over to Dean Coral's
and Dean immediately says to Wayne, why would you bring

(44:18):
a girl here? And Wayne, who's been raised by women
who have always been on his side, thinks, I need
to protect this girl. So, as Dean Coral is setting
this up so that both Tim Curley and Rand of
Williams are going to be abused, they're going to be restrained. Wayne,
who's kind of high and out of it. It's it's

(44:39):
you know, late in the morning, you know, initially says
he's going to assist. You know, I think that he's
restrained Wayne as well. He unrestrains Wayne. Wayne picks up
a gun and Dean says, you're not gonna You're not
gonna shoot that at me and Dean it always told Wayne,
if you're going to shoot a gun, make sure the

(44:59):
person you're shooting dies. Make sure they're dead. Before you
stop shooting, and Wayne just starts shooting. And you can
see in the evidentiary photographs of Dean Coral he's backed
up against a wall. He's obviously fallen against the wall.
There are bullet holes, you know, in his skin, He's naked,

(45:20):
and this is how police find him. And so this
is what Almayne Henley is up against, a man who
keeps coming at him while he's shooting him, saying you
won't kill me. And Catherine and I have actually wondered
if this was a way that Dean Coral saw for
him to almost commit suicide and that he really was

(45:41):
at the end of his rope. Obviously, Amiwayn Henley was
at the end of his rope and was no longer
going to continue participating. And so once he you know,
unbinds Tim Curley and Randa Williams, they go out of
the house, they call police, they wait for police, and
from what Elma, Wayne Henley says, he's relieved. He's going

(46:05):
to tell them everything. And the thing that you know,
when we started digging into the hundreds of pages of
police reports, the first thing you see from both Wayne
and David Brooks is that there is a syndicate at large.
They had both been informed about this syndicate. At one point,
Almoyn Henley had told his friend that it almost felt

(46:26):
like being in The Godfather, which was a big film
at that time. You know that he was part of
something much larger, much like the Mafia. So he had
some understanding, but it also seemed to have this era
of mystery for him. It's only four days later that
in Dallas, which is where both David Brooks and elm

(46:46):
Wayne Henley felt that syndicate was based, that a man
named John David Norman is arrested because there is a
young man working with him that says he thought he
was supposed to be sent to Dean Coral and he
raises the alarm. So this is four days later police
in Dallas raid John David Norman's apartment in Dallas. They

(47:09):
find just tons of pornography, evidence of trafficking, tons of marijuana.
The way that the Elmowyn Henley and David Brooks described
this was that it was kind of a gambling and
prostitution ring. You know that there were a lot of
different facets to it, but the overall notion is that
there's a lot of money being made by this individual,

(47:31):
and this individual isn't working alone. So then you start
to see, Wait, John David Norman's arrested, but almost immediately
bonds out. He's got plenty of money, and he almost
immediately goes to Chicago, the Chicago area, where he not
only starts to abuse again, but you start seeing him
crosspads with John Wayne Gacy.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
Unbelievable, I mean, what a tie in. Give me the
timeline of John Wayne Gacy. How long after this happens
with Quarrel is the discovery of John Wayne Gacy and
everything that he did. When did that happen?

Speaker 2 (48:07):
So this happens in August of nineteen seventy three. By
October of nineteen seventy three, John David Norman is in Chicago.
John Wayne Gacy is not discovered until December of nineteen
seventy eight. Wow, so he has five more years that
he's going to continue to abuse and kill people. But
it's very difficult to dismiss that these people are in

(48:28):
the same line of business, and they're ultimately connected by
an individual named Phil Pasky that's an employee of John
Wayne Gacy's, but it's also named as John David Norman's
right hand man. So when you think about a young
boy like Elma Wayne Henley entering into somebody who's we
already have discussed, is sadistic, he's a killer. But then

(48:52):
when you look at the larger ring where this individual
John David Norman, you know, is going to Chicago to
meet with John wayn gaycay See, who we know is
one of our other, like the largest serial murderers. To
see that those two things are connected then makes you
realize what he was up against.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
Have we heard of these kinds of circumstances before with
any other serial killers when they're connected to a much
larger syndicate with pornography and sex work and everything else.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
I think that you know, we were talking, you and
I Catherine were talking yesterday about the trash bag killer,
and so when you think about that potentially being strung
into this. We started looking at the ring during the
John Wyng Gaycy research we did, and we saw that
there were, you know, summer camps established in North Fox Island, Michigan,

(49:43):
where predators that are associated with this ring were having
young boys come from the city so they could have
the refreshing air of the countryside during the summertime, camps
that are supported by state and federal grants, and it's
proven that all these boys that went there are being
abused and trafficked.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
Yeah, there's recently a documentary, I think Children of the
Snow where the babysitter serial killer in Michigan is related
to this island retreat that Tracey's talking about, and they
had a lot of documentation that the killers of these
kids were associated with this group.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
Well, back to the story, I remember you saying that
David Brooks came in and confessed at some point. Is
that right.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
He didn't confess so much as back up to where
Wayne calls in that he's killed porl And as soon
as they put him in the police car. So what
he looks like is he's a hero. He has saved
these other two kids. He's killed, you know, Dean Coral,
it's all self defense. He looks he's looking pretty good.
But he immediately says he talked about having burying some

(50:50):
kids in this boat shed in South Houston, and they
kind of dismissed him, similar to the way they dismissed
the whole they're all runaways, until he started naming names
that they found to be on missing person's list, and
then they thought, all right, let us take him down
there and see, still not really quite believing it. Then

(51:10):
get to the boat stall and it's just this small
it's not even outside stall, it's the it's in the middle.
They opened it. There's just some junk in there or
an old car, but there's a kid's bike and they
know the bike has recently been stolen, with a kid
missing the week before, and it turns out the bike
is that kid's bike, and the car is stolen, and

(51:33):
there's a rake with white rosin on the tongs, and
there's a shovel and there's so they start digging. It
was didn't take long for them to find the thirteen
year old boy wrapped in plastic, buried there. So now
they know they've built a long night ahead, and they
end up unearthing multiple bodies. And at that point David

(51:54):
comes in because he's hearing this on the news and
he wants to say, well, you know, I lived with
Coral and nothing like this happened in front of me.
And his father was allowed to be in there with
him because his father had given these moonlighting jobs to
some of the cops, so they bent the rules for him,

(52:15):
and because his father was in there, Brooks was not
going to really say much. He sort of threw Wayne
under the bus, then gave a second statement when they
basically said, we know you're much more a part of this.
They put him in Wayne together into a room and
Wayne said, if you don't start talking, I'm talking. So
you should start telling the truth. You'll feel better. So

(52:35):
then David gives second statement, admits he's seen some kids
who ended up being murdered and that all he was
was the driver to the burial sites. And eventually the
third statement he gives just about one victim, and that's
what nails him essentially. But he's not willing to take
any responsibility whatsoever for this. But he does go to

(52:59):
one of the burial locations, High Island Beach. At this point,
Wayne's already taken with a boat stall to a lake
where four are buried, and they're on their way to
High Island Beach where six are buried, and so the
two of them. But the odd thing is for me,
Brooks never says. And here they are together, face to
base on the beach. There are photos of them sitting
together Brooks never says, so you did it. You finally

(53:25):
did it. And I found that so odd because supposedly
they had discussed killing Corel, but instead all Brooks seases,
you ruined my life. Had a wife, I've got a
kid coming. You basically ruined my life. Wow.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
So what happens next? In the legal wheels are grinding here?
Is there a plea deal? Do they go to trial?

Speaker 3 (53:47):
They went to trial. There was a grand jury hearing
and Wayne gave a very detailed statement and took responsibility
for the murders of a number of boys. And they
made a determination to try him for six because they
had the bodies one of the ones he confessed to
they didn't have the body for because they closed down

(54:08):
the beach operation too soon before they found this particular one.
But so he had confessed and he had named names
that he was implicated in. So they had a grand
jury hearing for both of them together, and then they
were both going to trial.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
So tell me a little bit more about that. How
did the media frame Tracy all of this? What was
the optics of these two teenagers, these you know, neighborhood
boys who had become involved with this older man who was,
you know, highly involved in the community and just seemed
like somebody who was totally normal, and this just must

(54:44):
have been a can of worms all over the place
that the community couldn't believe.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
And I want to start creating a parallel which is
why I started to dig into this case. After I
had researched the Gacy case. What you have are people
within one enforcement and prosecution starting to really craft a narrative.
It's ignored in police reports that an individual comes forward

(55:09):
and says there is pornography of these young men that
would widen out the case. We look in the police
records and after this is told to them, they do
nothing to research that we can see. There's no evidence
that they did. Even further, even though John David Norman
is somebody that's afoot, police deny that out of hand.
There's absolutely no connection between John David Norman and this case.

(55:33):
Even though you have a young man saying I was
supposed to be sent to Dane Coral and I think
that we know, you know, birds of a feather flock together.
So this was something that just doesn't make sense to
us in the modern day. So you see the victims
being almost made responsible for their own demise. These are
kids that are associated with a perverted psychopath who's homosexual.

(55:58):
And instead of making this an issue whereby you know,
Dean Coral is you know, he's a completely different animal altogether.
He has nothing to do with homosexuality. He has everything
to do with predation, sadism, murder, And so you have
this huge upheople in the United States while are all

(56:20):
gay men murderers, killers, defilers, and so you have this
blowback where the gay community is trying to say, look,
we're just living our lives. Even though you might see
this as perversion, it's a very normal sexual disposition, and
so trying to kind of cut that in half is

(56:40):
something where again the victims are seen as somehow tainted. So,
you know, you don't have a ton of parents, especially
given you know, kind of the amount of religion in
Texas at the time. You have people wanting to turn
away from this, people who aren't going to be aggressive
about trying to find answers. It's kind of made to

(57:01):
be elmawayn Henley's problem. He's the one who propagated this.
Dean Coral's mother says as much, Dean Coral is dead
nobody can help you hold him accountable. He ultimately as
somebody who served in the army, is given a proper
burial in an army cemetery, while Elmawayn Henley is created

(57:22):
into public enemy number one. And so this kid who's
still not even eighteen is being paraded around as somebody
who is willing to talk, somebody who's boasting about his
crimes somebody, and so he's kind of created. No matter
what he says, he's deemed to be evil beyond you know,
compare and so, and we found this in the John

(57:44):
Wayne Gacy case two, where police started looking or at
least the media started looking at victims as somehow responsible
for their own demise because of their drug use, because
of their sexual predilictions. And so you're able to both
dismiss these accomplices who are not full accomplices and yet

(58:04):
are being blamed for all I mean people have, you know,
very casually said Elmo Weyn Henley murdered twenty eight kids.
He did not, and he wasn't the driving force for
these murders. And so once that gets crafted as a narrative,
the pornography is ignored. Any larger sex trafficking ring isn't discovered,

(58:26):
then Almo Weayn Henley has to bear the brunt of
all of this, so he gets, you know, five hundred
and eighty plus years in prison. He's discredited. There's nothing
that he can say that would make him look less
than wicked. And so the people that are in power
that may have benefited from a sex trafficking ring, the

(58:47):
people who find this kind of messy and it's tough
to prosecute that might not know exactly what happened. Everybody
goes with as much simpler narrative and walks away, and
history for fifty years ignores this. But it's important for
us to know that this was one of the largest
sex trafficking rings were unaware of. It's important to know,

(59:11):
as doctor Ramsland states in the back of the book,
there are ways of getting kids out of these situations,
helping them that adults can do to intervening. Today, this
is not a subject that's lost in history. This is
something that is even more prevalent than it was during
this time because of the Internet.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
Do you think doctor Ramsland, that the nuances of these
relationships between these three people with Brooks and Henley and coral.
Would those nuances be brought out today? Knowing what we
know about you know, we're much more of course enlightened
about the difference between predators and people who are gay,
all of this stuff. It seems like some of that

(59:54):
mess might be cut away from a story that happened today.

Speaker 3 (59:58):
I think it depends in the jury diction, frankly, because
you certainly still see those same black and white attitudes,
unwillingness to look at nuances, unwillingness to give any ground
to something like that, you know, the teenage brain research.
So I even I mean, I've recently had some encounters

(01:00:20):
with a prosecutor who stated exactly what I just said,
not giving any ground on this. These kids killed blah
blah blah. You know, this is in a place you
think would be more enlightened, but no. So I think
it really depends on who's handling it, what mental health
resources are available for explanation, and you know, trying to

(01:00:42):
really just trying to deal with all that we do
know about them, and whether someone's willing to apploy that
to a given situation, Because as soon as something happens,
there's a lot of reaction, and social media just echoes
that and magnifies it and distorts it and does all
kinds of stuff with it and inspire under rage. I mean, really,

(01:01:05):
you'll see if people on social media this true crime
culture where they're ready to lynch somebody without giving any
thought to some of the factors involved, that might mitigate.
So I just think it really depends on the situation
and where it happens.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
Kind Of as we wrap up here, Wayne Henley, what
is his general outlook on life? Because he has life
in prison. Life does not stop once you're in prison.
I'm assuming that he's created some kind of a community,
some kind of family or something there what is happening
with him.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
He tends to create his family with people who write
to him more than inside the prison. He's been in
prison fifty one years, but he's been moved around a lot,
and a number of people that he was friends with
them gotten out, and I think under most circumstances he
would have been at this point, because fifty one years
is a long time, and there are people in similar

(01:02:03):
circumstances who have been paroled, but not him. He likes
the fact that we've approached him to do this book
because it feels like he might be remembered for something
more than just that bad stretch of time in his past.
He doesn't want to be reduced to that. It's a
way for him to have given a message out there

(01:02:23):
for kids to be aware, for caretakers to be aware,
for people to listen when kids try to say they're
in trouble and don't just dismiss them, try to help
them in some way. And I think that he appreciates
having something in print out there for people to see

(01:02:44):
his situation and to set the story right because prior
to this book, it was that older book from nineteen
seventy four, before even the trial, before even the grand jury,
is that older book that sets the tone for this case,
but it was based on largely on a few interviews
with families and the police reports, and the police reports

(01:03:05):
we have found are flawed, so that means that story
is flawed for a number of reasons. Kudos to him
getting that book out quickly, but unfortunately it's how many
people think about the case, and we're hoping to change
some minds. And I think way To appreciates that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
Tray see any other closing thoughts.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
I just think that elmioing Henley is looking to help,
and he's given us insight to things, especially this case,
that we never would have had had we not asked.
He's willing to answer every question that we have and
to help law enforcement understand the nuances of this, and

(01:03:45):
so I really appreciate that he's willing to do that.
And I think that as a society, it's just so
important for us to not look away from these things.
That the fact that we didn't know a lot about
this sex trafa King ring and that we're only learning
more about it in the past couple of years, it

(01:04:06):
can only lead to history repeating itself, and we don't
want that to happen. We want our children to be
safe and healthy.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
If you love historical true crime stories, check out the
audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That
Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget There are
twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More
Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and
give them a listen if you haven't already. This has
been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi.

(01:04:49):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed
by John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer, artwork by
Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff, and
Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More
Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod.