December 24, 2024 • 50 mins
In this episode, Brandon Seigel, a leader in private practice management, dives into the often-overlooked value of physical therapy. We explore how therapists undervaluing their services impacts career growth and patient outcomes, and why recognizing the balance between qualitative and quantitative value is essential for success in the healthcare field.
Key Takeaways:
- Learn how understanding and communicating your value can transform your practice and career.
- Examine how financial literacy and strategic pricing can overcome gaps in healthcare education.
- Discover how higher fees can lead to better client relationships and a more sustainable practice.
- Gain insights on aligning work-life balance preferences with fair compensation and avoiding burnout.
Virtual Rockstars specialize in helping support or replace all non-clinical roles.
Learn how a Virtual Rockstar can help scale your physical therapy practice.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
rock stars.
Welcome to the willpowerpodcast.
Our very special guest isbrandon siegel.
He's a best-selling author, aninternationally recognized
private practice guru, and Iwant to validate that I don't
just bring anyone on the show.
These are people that Iabsolutely personally guarantee
will provide you with maximumvalue.
He he's the president ofWellness Works Management
(00:23):
Partners.
He has 20 years of leadershipexperience, but what he's known
for is leadership, and his nicheis more in the pediatric space,
but everything we're going totalk about is applicable to the
entire healthcare field.
Today's message is all aboutvalue, qualitative versus
quantitative.
Here's why this is important.
The single greatest problem inour industry is that we don't
(00:47):
occur to ourselves as doctors inour community and we don't
charge what we're worth, whichis why insurance companies take
advantage of us, why it's hardto compensate our employees or
for them to even make the moneythat they would want to make,
because we're not aboutprofitability.
So he's gonna help youunderstand the difference, and I
would have all of your teammembers listen to today's
(01:07):
episode.
It's a master class on how tounderstand money and what you
can do about it to start makingmore money and working less.
Guys enjoy the show.
So, brandon, do you believethat physical therapists
understand their value?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I don't believe that physical therapists understand
how to define their value, and Ithink, as a result, what's
happening is we're teachingtherapists only how to create a
qualitative value.
We are not helping themdiscover the quantitative value,
and I think that is.
The mistake in our currenteducation system is that we
(01:46):
don't spend enough time inliterally breaking down the
equivalency between qualitativevalue and quantitative value.
So therapists are going to comeout saying I'm the best
therapist, I am a manualtherapist, I'm incredible, all
this stuff and then when I sayhow much is that worth, they
look like I have a gun, and so,literally, I think this is one
(02:10):
of the biggest barriers, becausehow can I create a value
proposition if I don't have adefined quantitative value that
I put on myself?
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So clarify that please for people who are going
qualitative, quantitative, whatis that distinction?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
So qualitative means of value, the quality of care
that I create, outcomes that youfeel better after you've been
with me.
So I'm a great therapistbecause, qualitatively, will
you're out of pain, you feelgood, I've done my job.
So you give yourself an A+.
Quantitative means that you'reable to put a financial number
(02:47):
on the value of what you justgave.
So, in your mind, will, if Iwere able to remove all pain
from you for the next six months, what is the value of what you
just received and how do youdefine that value?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
proposition, so that's like the money part of it
.
In other words, in terms of me,when you said that right now
we're talking with me havingrecently injured my rotator cuff
and so I have to go to aphysical therapist, and as you
were talking, I was thinkingabout what if someone said to me
confidently oh I can get thatcompletely better right in the
next six weeks, but here's whatyou need to do.
What number would I want or bewilling to pay and I guarantee
(03:31):
it's higher than most PTs wouldbe willing to say?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well, and I think part of the problem is we don't
know how to showcase enoughresults to allow someone to find
that financial value.
And so one of the bestexperiences I ever had full
transparency is when my daughterwas young.
I took her to a physicaltherapist and an occupational
(03:54):
therapist.
It was both and they actuallydid an evaluation in front of us
and then they did treatment andthey were able to show, within
a 90-minute process, a totalchange in function to say, buy
into our program.
So I paid probably $1,500 forthe eval and I was like that's a
lot, but let's see.
And then they had me sold.
I was like you can't put anumber on what this is, because
(04:16):
what you just showcased was nottime, it was not action, it was
results.
And so if we're really asqualitatively good as we say we
are, then why can't wefinancially value the value of
what we're going to create forsomeone?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, what are the problems that come from us as an
industry, not understanding howto quantitatively define our
value.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Well, and then you know so I told you this earlier,
but I'm going to say it againfor everyone is I went to a
physical therapist today andprivate pay physical therapist.
Now, kind of to give you somebackstory I was referred to a
pelvic floor physical therapistfrom my doctor but my wife,
who's an occupational therapist,said no, no, no, no, no, not
(05:02):
yet, you're not ready for thatand you're going to hate
biofeedback.
She was like you're going tohate it, so you don't want that.
And I'm like, okay.
And she's like you're going togo to this physical therapist
because everything in your bodyis so tight that it doesn't
matter what a pelvic floortherapist does.
You need this first in orderfor your muscles and whatnot.
And I'm not a therapist, I'm abusiness guy.
But I'm like okay, yes, yes,honey, whatever you want, I show
(05:26):
up to this therapist's officeand he's quality-wise, he's good
.
I liked what he had to do, butthe experience had room for
opportunity and the biggestthing that I think with him was
he is a really good clinician,his ability to take a good
(05:49):
clinical approach and turn itinto a value of experience where
I walk away like, oh my God, Ijust spent the best investment
of the day.
This like made my day and itreally he had the clinical
skills to do it.
He didn't know how to put itinto that next gear.
And what was sad was when wegot to the checkout period where
he's like I'm like how much doI owe you?
(06:11):
Again, he'd already sentpaperwork, I had already signed
it, everything, and he said youknow, this is how much it costs.
But since you and I stopped him, I said look, I'm going to be a
business coach right now.
Don't cheapen your value.
If that's your price foreveryone else, don't treat me
any different.
And granted, he knew I'm likein the industry and whatever I
go, hold your own buddy.
Like you earned it, you own it.
(06:33):
So it comes back to this idea ofwhether you're a practice owner
or a therapist or whatever, youneed to be able to own that
value.
And at the end of the day, wealso know when someone's not
worth their value.
And so sometimes people alsooverplay their card.
(06:53):
And so I bring this up becauseon the recruitment side, I
always let them show me theircards before I show them.
I'm a big believer in that anda lot of.
So I want to be clear.
I set a magnet when I recruitthat says this is what the job
looks like, this is what the paylooks like, all those different
things.
But once they apply, they haveto go through what I call the
analysis of fit component.
(07:14):
And when we are analyzing fit,it starts with what does the
fuel that they require and whereis that destination going to be
?
Based on that fuel, meaningphysical therapist, how much
they want to make, what does it?
Are they doing 30 minutes, 45minutes, 60 minutes, 40 minute
visits?
Do they need aids?
Do they not?
Are they in a clinic?
Are they in the home?
(07:34):
All these different factorsthat we look at.
And how hard do they want towork?
What does lifestyle look likefor them?
And that allows us to measurethis.
But when someone comes to youWill and says you know, I'm
looking for and I have thishappen all the time, I'm looking
for over six figures and I'mlooking to do see about 25
(07:55):
patients a week and I'm like 25minimum, 25 goal, because that's
a whole different thing.
I want to be clear 25 deliveredmeans that we're scheduling 30
to 35, just so that we that'sour minimum 25.
Seen to you might be, I onlywant 25 scheduled.
Well, now you've overplayedyour hand, and so it comes down
(08:16):
to.
It's really easy to quicklyidentify when a therapist has no
way to financially valuethemselves, and to me, this is
the first thing we should learnin life.
This is what we should betraining our kids for.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're a physical therapist,
you're a landscaper, you're apool man, a baseball coach or
(08:37):
whatever.
You have to be able to know howto value yourself based on ROI,
based on the benefit thatyou're delivering.
And so I bring it up, becausethere are baseball coaches
making more than physicaltherapists right now.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
And that's the whole problem we're facing.
We're realizing thisdiscrepancy that exists in our
industry.
The way it looks more directlyfor students is where they come
out of school with a studentloan debt, because the
universities know how to valuewhat they do.
You know, and there's a wholedebate on that, but like they
understand that, hey, listen,for a doctorate level degree
you're going to have to pay$130,000 in money.
(09:17):
Students are taking that on andthen they're going into a
profession that doesn't know howto value itself.
And, ironically, theeducational institutions are
perpetuating to the PTsthemselves how to undervalue
themselves individually.
So then you have theseindividuals and an institution
to where people are leavingbecause they're in a position
(09:38):
where they don't understand whatthey're worth.
And to your point, if we knewwhat we were worth as PTs, we
would know how to chargeappropriately for our patients.
We would understand as owners,how to recruit better because we
know what we're worth.
But this whole idea ofunderstanding quantitatively
what we're worth is driving themajority of all of our problems.
(09:59):
And that's why insurancecompanies are taking advantage
is because, you know, we look atthem as the big bad wolf, and I
still think they kind of are.
But at the end of the day,they're the ones who are taking
advantage of just what we'rewilling to not understand about
ourselves.
Which is what we should becharging in terms of visits,
what we should be collecting interms of cash.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Well, and in my opinion, at the end of the day,
the value of ourself is based on, in my opinion, two drivers.
One is the qualitative ROI,meaning how much is that quality
worth to you?
So I want to get leather in acar.
So it's going to cost me thismuch more because of quality of
(10:39):
life.
Like what's that qualitativevalue?
So why did I go to a private payperson when my doctor referred
me to, being very transparent, afranchise PT clinic?
That was a mill.
I could have gone throughinsurance, I could have had a
$10 copay and I opted to go fullcash.
(10:59):
And you're like well, you canafford it.
I go.
No, it's how I value it.
I'm not going to Italy, I'm notgoing on vacation, I'm not
doing what I'm doing, I'mvaluing it.
So one is that component of Iput a qualitative ROI on the
care I'm going to get.
But then the second variable,which is kind of understood as
(11:20):
affordability Can they affordwhat that qualitative ROI is?
And what's happening is ourindustry is attracting more and
more people that say my goal isto serve those who are
underserved and cannot affordquality services.
(11:40):
But the problem is when someoneI give it, I go back to that
book, the Giving Tree.
What happens at the end of theday?
The tree dies Like sorry if youhaven't read it, but bottom
line is the tree dies.
So I bring it to everyone tosay don't devalue yourself where
your tree is going to die.
It's not your problem to solvetheir crisis.
(12:01):
And I come back to whoseproblem is it to solve when they
have big student loans?
Is it your problem?
Well, if all the therapists youhire have 60, 100, $150,000
student debt, did you tell themto get that debt?
No, no, no.
At the end of the day, the twothings I always say is would you
buy a home with a variableinterest rate that goes up or
(12:24):
down every year?
And I bring that up becausethat's what we're doing with our
salaries and our employees iswe hire someone who accepts our
job and sometimes within threemonths, six months, 12 months,
whatever they're like, oh, Ineed more money, my cost of
living went up, or this or that.
I'm like you need to know whatthey value themselves at five
years from now.
You need to know what theyvalue themselves at five years
(12:46):
from now.
You need to budget for wherethat balloon payment is going to
be, because it's going to catchyou.
And I guess one of the thingskind of tying back to value I'm
a big believer in is I'm likewhatever I can pay you five
years from now, I can pay youtoday.
So would you rather me give youthe value of today for today,
(13:06):
or would you rather me slow playyou so that you get your value
today, five years from now?
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Right, I love that.
Well, and I think the big thinghere is that when we are
undervaluing ourselves, I don'tthink we understand that we are
hurting the patients, theindustry and ourselves.
Because here's the thing Ithink most PTs are thinking when
they're devaluing themselves,First of all, I don't even think
they're aware that they'redoing it, but when they are,
they justify it at least I usedto to be like well, the reason
(13:35):
I'm not, you know, charging morefor my services or whatever, is
because I'm not about the money.
That's a common phrase in ourindustry.
I'm not driven by money.
However, there's a bigdifference between not being
motivated by money and notunderstanding its impact in my
world, like that giving tree, IfI'm not, it's just a fuel.
It's not good or bad,inherently right.
(13:56):
So when PTs oftentimesundervalue their services, they
think they're doing somethingcharitable.
So explain the difference,Brandon, in that regard.
When is charity appropriateversus what we're talking about,
which is paying what is orcharging what we are worth to
our clients?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
So my viewpoint on this is no margin, no mission,
plain and simple.
And in a world whereeverything's evolving, if we
prioritize what I'm going tocall patients, employees, other
shareholders and not ourbusiness algorithm, we will not
sustain what is to come.
(14:37):
That is just a fact.
And so the reason whyconsolidation is happening is
not because people are gettinggreat valuation and out In the
last three years.
The reason why consolidation ishappening is because people
with money are seeing that otherpeople can't do a good enough
job, and so how many people doyou know?
When they get acquired by aprivate equity company within
(14:59):
three years, that practice lookstotally different than when it
was acquired Everyone, Okay.
So my viewpoint is if you reallydon't want it to get to that
level, prioritize your margin,and whatever you don't need you
can give away after the fact.
So sustain what you have, getyour 15, 20, whatever your
margin goal is, and then you cango and give back, and then you
(15:22):
can say I'm going to donate tothis cause, and they do.
Scholarships in which thosescholarships go to create
accessibility.
But the number one polarizingviewpoint right now is am I here
to create qualitative outcomesor am I here to create
accessibility to outcomes, butthey contradict each other.
(15:45):
Qualitative outcomes andaccessibility of outcomes
contradict because qualitativecosts more than accessibility.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yes, it does, and I think that they think they're
being kind and generous whenthey're making it accessible to
all.
But then how often do theystruggle with patient compliance
and attendance?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Well and this is my other statement is if you don't
care about money, then why areyou starting your own business?
So, even like this therapistthe other day, he said to me
he's like, look, honestly, mynumber one priority is just to
give great care.
And I got into this to givegreat care.
(16:28):
I'm like, well, you couldn'thave given good care at your
previous employership.
And he's like, well, no, I wasgiving great care.
There I go.
What's the difference?
Like, well, I want to make moremoney.
I'm like, so, own it.
And I say that in this way ofwe prioritize baseball contracts
, movie stars, etc.
(16:49):
Do you think the Rock givesanything with the fact that he's
making hundreds of millions ofdollars to literally show up and
say do you know what the Rockis smelling?
or whatever his slogan is, and Isay it this way, I don't
understand why we can't getbehind the idea that the cancer
doctor should get a milliondollars, the physical therapist
(17:10):
should get, like why You'resaving lives.
Fortunately, I've never had oneof my children in the NICU, but
if I went to a parent and saidhow much is it worth this NICU
to save your child, they wouldsay I will leverage every penny
(17:31):
in my name to save my child.
Somehow we've lost that valueof what it represents, because I
think we have this entitlementthat it should just be there.
But where in the world did weget this idea that it's
universally and I'm not talkinglike political, I'm not talking,
you know, universal healthcareand all that.
(17:53):
What I'm talking is is, at theend of the day, we think that
the best quality care shouldcome for free and I don't
understand that mindset.
What other industry has that?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
free and I don't understand that mindset.
What other industry has that?
Yeah, it's true, because inhealthcare we as a profession
struggle with money overall, butno one liked the PTs and OTs.
The PT, ots, slps, inparticular, are in a place where
we are so confused about itthat probably what some people
rock stars that are listeningheard what you just said,
brandon.
Some of them probably startedto feel uneasy about this idea
(18:27):
of taking a family with a kid inthe NICU and recognizing that
they'd be willing to pay thatmoney because the healthcare
provider that we've been trainedto be might hear that like
taking advantage.
And what I think is importantfor the listeners and rock stars
to understand is that there isa point of which you are taking
(18:47):
advantage and that's not theproviders.
I say this all the time,brandon.
I believe that every PT, ot andSLP should make as much money
as they want, meaning they couldmake lots of money, become
incredibly wealthy, because it'sonly with the profitability
that you can do things to turnit into charity, like you can't
(19:09):
give away what you don't haveand when you devalue your
practice.
We're not talking aboutovercharging, but what we're
recognizing is we're soundercharged that charging a
fair exchange feels like we'reripping people off because of
the way we've been programmed.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Well, and it's interesting because if, from my
experience and you may havedifferent experience when I've
gone to places that havesocialized medicine like Canada
the people actually value theprivate pay so much greater.
It's this mindset of like, hey,no, I'm ready to pay whatever
it takes to get what I need, buthere it's like, well, why isn't
(19:45):
my insurance covering it?
And part of that is thepremiums cost.
So I do want to get back toyour statement that I do agree
that two of the variables orwe'll say ingredients, that's a
better word that are plaguingour industry right now are,
plain and simple, our healthinsurance system, because
(20:06):
they're making buckets andbuckets and buckets and buckets
and buckets of money and there'sno regulation.
It's kind of like that's anissue, and I think it's also the
idea that I pay $10,000 a yearand get $100,000 of healthcare
benefits doesn't make sense,comes back to that growth.
So the whole idea of insurancethey're betting on not giving
(20:27):
you services is my point.
The second thing that isplaguing our system is our
college graduate programs.
These programs are notpreparing people for the real
world.
They're preparing people enoughto have a licensure and enough
to have enough debt to last alifetime.
(20:48):
And it's amazing because Iremember what the unit cost of
school was when I went toundergrad and what it is now.
It's like a thousand percentmore.
I'm not exactly it's insane.
It's insane and I don'tunderstand.
There's a point in which I'mnot exactly.
It's insane, it's insane andand I don't, I don't understand.
There's a point in which theprofession's not worth the cost
(21:10):
of the degree.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I agree, and it's crazy that out my school.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
It's also a school that sells an OTPT degree.
That makes no sense to me whysomeone would get both degrees
because I can't get double thepay Like what's my benefit?
I just studied, now I'm an OTand a DPT Like and I'm sorry if
you've bought into that programbut financially you're not worth
more to me as an employer.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Just plain and simple , same with any alphabet of the
suit behind your name.
Like there's this thoughtprocess of if I keep developing
my qualitative value, somehowit's going to make sense
quantitatively back on the backend.
But you and I both know thequantitative value comes from
knowing what you're worth at anylevel, so you can continue to
(22:17):
add qualitative value.
But if you're never going todevelop your ability to
understand your quantitativevalue, it doesn't matter.
As an employer, we're stillgetting paid the same because
you're still under billing.
That's the problem.
We have a broken healthcaresystem combined with these
educational components.
I agree with you a thousandpercent on that.
But here's what's funny when PT,ots and SLPs are undercharging
(22:38):
for their services, they thinkthey're helping the patient.
Do you know?
I know Brandon already knowsthis, but Rockstars do you know
who is benefiting from that?
The insurance companies.
So here's you tell me who'sovercharging right?
Last year, unitedhealthcare, inthe physical therapy practices
and OT practices I've consulted,reimbursed anywhere between $50
(23:00):
to $70 a visit across thecountry.
Last year, unitedhealthcaremade $284 billion of profit.
So when you are waving awayco-pays and helping the patient
lower their fee because you'remaking it more accessible, what
you're doing is giving them moreprofits and you're allowing the
(23:21):
patient and you, as the pt andthe owner practice, to bear that
burden.
So this might be a greatmessage for pt owners to give to
their, their pts and ots andslps and go hey, listen, listen
to this, this podcast, becauseat the end of the day, I don't
think we're aware of thatconnection.
That's what universities, ifuniversities educated in that
Brandon, how cool would that be.
(23:42):
If universities are like, let'stalk about how to develop you
quantitatively more valuable,not just qualitatively.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
I think fiscal literacy should be mandatory.
I think understanding how todefine your value and even just
the project of I want you topick your most prized possession
qualitatively, that's the mostmeaningful to you.
How would you quantitativelyput that?
Could you put a quantitativeprice on that?
And I do think it's just.
(24:10):
It's baffling to me that PTsdon't see that when they cheapen
the quantitative value, theydon't increase the qualitative
value, they actually reduce it.
And I give this example of Willand I are going to go out
tonight and we're going to get asteak and we go to that
steakhouse and the steakhousesays, hey, it's normally $59.95
(24:31):
for this steak, but we're givingit to you for $9.99 tonight.
It's a special deal, Will, ifwe decide to go in a week later
and they're like, oh, it's$59.99, aren't you like, well,
that was a $9.99 stake.
Now you're telling me it's$59.99?
.
Like, that doesn't make sense.
Like why am I paying five timesthe value?
Well, that was a discount.
People don't understanddiscounts as value.
(24:53):
They understand discounts asrepresentative of what that
qualitative value is to you.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I agree with that.
By the way, alex Ramosi alwayssays he never discounts his
price.
The price is the price, becausethe second you discount
something, that becomes theunderstanding of what the value
is.
I have a coaching program thatI won't promote here, but I had
a coach tell me I was workingwith practice owners and he told
(25:23):
me when I was launching this.
He said hey, you need to charge, let's start out at $2,000 for
six months.
And to me that number feltinsanely large.
And he goes no, no, I'mobjectively assessing what I
believe the exchange is.
He goes you're undervaluing itat $2,000, but it is your first
group.
He goes we're actually going toraise that significantly after
you get some social proof.
So I started at $2,000.
After six months he comes backto me.
He goes now you're going tocharge $8,500 for the same
(25:44):
course.
And I thought he was insane.
And this is the PT in me.
This is the educational systemI came through.
That was even though I owned apractice.
This was how this showed up forme in terms of quantitative
valuation.
So when I started to chargemore Brandon, you know what
happened because you know thisprocess the quality of my
clients got better.
It was easier to sell.
(26:05):
It wasn't harder to sell.
It was actually easier to sellbecause when someone sees that
you're pricing it high, there'san emotional experience for
people who only see that $59steak as like well, it must be
insanely delicious, right.
And so, again, there's a lot ofpeople out in the industry who
are figuring this out in the B2Bspace, where there's coaches
(26:26):
helping PT practice owners whoare really good at pricing it
high and bringing the sizzle,but their qualitative value
isn't actually matching up totheir quantitative, but they're
actually doing pretty goodbecause of that.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah, well, it's interesting you say this because
I had an experience about ayear ago and there's someone in
the industry that charged,there's a couple of people that
charged $50,000 for theirprograms and my wife was like,
why don't you do that?
I'm like I can never sellanything at a $50,000 package.
(27:01):
She's like why?
I'm like?
Because I'm call it spiritual.
I'm spiritually not at a placewhere I put that value on myself
, where I would pay myself forthat.
And I come back to you have tobe willing to buy what you're
selling, and that's so important.
Willing to buy what you'reselling, and that's so important
.
So I can't tell you how manytherapists I find they want
(27:22):
these huge salaries when they'reemployees and then when they
become employers, they don'twant to pay the salaries that
they wanted.
I'm like you were there, that'swhat you wanted.
Yeah, but I was different.
I'm like there's no difference,it's the same thing.
They don't know what I wentthrough.
I go, that's not their lifejourney.
But you have to recognize thatyou've been there and I think
that the what I call pain in thebutt employees that become
(27:45):
practice owners, they have themost challenging time because
when they start to see otherpain in the butt.
Therapists are like how darethey?
I'm like you were the same.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
They just see.
They understand it like whenyou own a practice you get the
money piece so fast.
I would say that most ownersquickly start understanding.
It's the school of hard knocksthat teaches them.
This is what the quantitativeimpact is for you as the owner
and when you're an employee,especially when you come from
our educational systems that wego through brandon.
I think there's this idea oflike well, the owner must be
killing it financially.
They have no idea that if thatowner was paid per hour for what
(28:23):
they put into their business,they make way less than the
people that work for them inmost cases.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, and that's why, for me, 95% of what I coach and
work on is comp structures, andit comes down to full
transparency.
It comes down to we want tobuild a KPI list that they
understand.
So I say what is the totalpeople expense for that employee
, not just the wages, that's theEMR, that's all these variables
(28:49):
that go up and down, thatcreate affordability or
inaffordability related to thatemployee, and how much revenue
do they get of what theygenerate?
And you'd be surprised.
And so I'm like, hey, you get40% of the revenue you generate.
Like, oh, that sounds great.
And then they're like, oh, I'monly getting $58 from UHC.
I'm like, yeah, now you knowthe problem.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
You know.
So this is important, rockstars, for people to hear this,
because Brandon is a clinicalexpert, which I don't use that
term loosely.
There's many businesses andcoaching groups that are popping
up that do not, in my opinion,match that, and here's why
Experts have either done itthemselves or have shown that
(29:31):
they can do it for others in avery reproducible way, and
oftentimes oversell themselvesbecause they understand this.
This is where, like, the coinis flipped, where sometimes
these um, quote-unquote expertsare quantitatively showing up as
experts but qualitativelyaren't, and it's like people
don't know the differencebecause they don't know what
they don't know.
So when I say that brandon isan expert, I mean he is an
(29:51):
expert.
How do you help your clientsestablish this?
Because you went through, likethe kpi piece and you mentioned
this, this whole thing aboutcompensation structures.
But, as an expert, how do youhelp your clients establish this
?
Because you went through theKPI piece and you mentioned this
whole thing about compensationstructures.
But can you walk us throughjust some of your things that
you help people do?
I have a lot of things I do soI'm not going to bore you.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
You can Google me.
But the bottom line is, I wouldsay a majority of people come
to me when they're havingtrouble with their comp
structure, and it all stems fromseveral things.
One is they don't understandtheir numbers, so the first
thing we have to do is figureout their business algorithm.
Their business algorithm is allof the data that makes up their
output, if that makes sense.
(30:27):
And so, from a quantitativestandpoint, what are your
expenses versus income?
How do you break it down andhow do you build an algorithm so
that you're consistentlycreating the same pizza pie day
in and day out?
Okay, Once we know thateverything fits that, and then,
when I communicate it, I go toWill and I go Will.
You're incredible.
You're worth 10X of what theindustry standard is.
(30:50):
The reality is, we're a vehicleof change and in order for us to
get to a destination, we haveto have the right fuel that we
can afford.
Right now we're in insurancepractice.
This is our affordability.
It's not based on value.
It's not how I feel about youNow.
If you value yourself higherthan what I'm offering, I
totally understand that, andthat's why I do a fit assessment
(31:13):
to make sure your needs, wantsand desires fully align, for not
just today, but for the nextfive years.
And sometimes we will say thatthe quantitative logistics and
needs of comp benefitseverything are not your driving
force, and that's what we haveto find out.
What are the drivers and atwhat point are you going to feel
(31:35):
full in gear?
And I bring this up becauseI've full-time therapists that
have been working for me forover 20 years, and 20 years of
retention is not easy and peoplesay, oh, you must pay the most.
I go no, I don't, Because whatI know is every day you can get
a greater dollar somewhere else.
That's just the reality.
And so what I recognize is thatthere's enough needs, wants and
(31:57):
desires being exceeded becauseI'm an under-promised,
over-delivered kind of guy thatthe consistency, reliability and
value they see in myorganization is greater than
just a quantitative compstructure Isn't that interesting
Because that's where we canbalance the quantitative and
qualitative as owners, with thepeople that we're hiring.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
But it starts with understanding the bare bones.
Numbers is what you're saying,right.
Where you go in there and youunderstand their business
algorithm is how you put it,where you're going through the
numbers, the nuts and bolts ofwhat they've established, what
their profit margins are, andthen you layer that with these
combinations of quantitative andqualitative numbers.
And to your point, with thesecombinations of quantitative and
qualitative numbers, and toyour point, like when companies
(32:39):
are only focusing on thequantitative, is when they find
themselves in a race to thebottom Because they are oh,
they're paying $75,000, I'mgoing to pay $80,000.
Oh, they're paying $80,000, I'mpaying $85,000, versus
understanding that value goesbeyond money.
And so it's an interestingproblem because it seems almost
flip-flop from what we weretalking about initially with PTs
(33:00):
.
Right, pts are so focused onthe qualitative but they don't
know how to quantify it.
But as PT owners, they're sofocused on that quantitative
amount that they're not focusingon their qualitative exchange.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I will tell you, though there's a trend that I've
seen in the last probably yearand a half.
That's changing with new grads,and the change is I would
rather make less and have a32-hour full-time job.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I've actually seen that recently in the coaching
call before this People weretalking about, one guy said this
and I'd never heard this before.
He said 80% of his employeesaren't full-time.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
So what's happening is different.
People are defining full-timedifferently and I want to be
clear In the past it was 40hours of full-time, then it was
36, became a trend.
Well, now we're starting to seethis idea of like I'll show
them hey, 40 hours a week, youget this.
(33:53):
32 hours a week, you get that.
Which one do you want?
They're like I want the 32.
And so we're seeing that lesspeople want to put in the 40
hours of time into a job today,which is so weird because, when
you think about it, we have 168hours in a week 168 hours and
(34:14):
we're complaining about 40.
It makes no sense to me, and noother industry I see as don't.
Like, if you go work in thehospitality industry, do you
think they're going to be like,oh, you get 32 hours a week?
No, they're going to be likeyou're going to work 50.
You're going to work whateverit takes.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You're going to work weekends, holidays?
Speaker 2 (34:32):
And what if your favorite restaurant just shut
down because they're like sorry,we've reached our 32 hours for
the week?
It's a little bizarre for me,but I think I'm programmed a
little different.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
No, I'm the same way.
I grew up in, actually, thehospitality industry.
My dad owned a restaurant, sonights, early mornings, weekends
, everything was on the table,pun intended to get working.
And you look at the PTs andthey're just in this place of I
don't know.
Culturally, I don't have a lotto say about it.
What are your thoughts?
Why that trend is bubbling upso much.
So I'm going to tie it to ourvalue piece.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Okay, the people that are entering the workforce or
in the workforce right now nolonger have their bucket filled
in the same capacity as they did10, 15, 20 years ago by what
they're doing.
And I think, as media andthings have changed and reality
TV and this lifestyle of I wantto travel and I want to see
(35:25):
museums and I want to go onprivate jets and like things
that we never saw 20 years ago,now people's, their whole value
system has shifted and the valuesystem is saying look, I don't
want to just live to work, Iwant to work to live.
And for me, being verytransparent, I live to work.
(35:49):
I love what I do.
If you gave me all the money inthe world, I would still work.
I love it.
It's like there's that cause andeffect of being able to create
change.
I would go nuts if I just wason a golf course all day.
Now I know there's not peoplelike me, but I also was that guy
that was busting tables at 15years old.
(36:09):
I grew up middle class, hadeverything I ever needed, what
you would consider like richJewish kid, and I just was born
with this grandfather thatliterally was like Brandon.
Nothing is given to you in life,regardless of the fact that
you're being raised a little bitspoiled, you're going to work
and learn that, like product oflike he was generation
(36:30):
depression.
So I literally was the onlygringo kid busing tables at a
restaurant and I remember fivehours on my feet.
I was tired and they're likebye, we're going to our next job
.
And it taught me that if I'mnot able to grind and enjoy the
grind, my life is going to belimited, and so the number one
(36:52):
lesson I'm trying to teach mykids is to find one thing you
can create and do for 60 hours aweek and be fulfilled, because
if you love what you do, there'snothing that someone can take
away from you.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I love that lesson and I relate to that.
I think there is a mindsetshift around entrepreneurship,
but I do believe that anyone candevelop that mindset.
But it comes from understandingwhat they value.
And I'm the very same way.
I sold my practice.
I'm not in a position where Ihave to work my 50 hours a week.
I choose to out of passion.
It's a passion drive for me andwhat I find is I love creating
(37:29):
possibility with people to thepoint where, when I'm not doing
that, I do like to relax fromtime to time.
But it's like the key thing isto find something that you're so
excited and passionate aboutthat it never feels like work,
and I love that.
You said learn to love the grind, because I have found when I
coach companies I'm sure you'veexperienced this but the company
in New York that has the teamthat's producing like each
(37:52):
therapist, is seeing like 80visits a week or more.
They're maybe, and sometimesequally or less burned out than
the group in Alaska that'sseeing less than 40 visits a
week.
So that tells the audience rockstars.
As you're listening to this,think about that.
Why are they burning out?
Like it's because we keepchoosing to talk about it, and
it's like this message we keepbeating as a drum, when, at the
(38:12):
end of the day, back during thedepression, people loved to have
the blessing to grind to makemoney.
So, yeah, I love that youexplained that, because maybe
what they're just valuing overthe years is shifting around
this like work to live versuslive to work.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Well, and I think that the grind fuels adrenaline
for those that really love it.
So to me, that grind, it givesme an adrenaline.
It's like, oh, let's go.
And there's nothing morerewarding than leaving at the
end of the day and knowingyou've left it all on the table.
You know like it.
Just I put it all out theretoday and I'm not saying like,
(38:51):
don't take breaks, don't I meanagain 168 hours.
I'm not telling you you need todo 100 of 168.
But I'm also a guy that I'mlike, if you can't live off six
hours of sleep, like six hoursis plenty, like I don't need
more, like I'm happy you give mesix, I can roll with that.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
So happy you give me six.
I can roll with that.
I need a little bit more, justfor the audience.
Who's going what?
Because you are a bit of asuperhuman, brandon, I know you
well enough to know that hisstandard might feel a little
impossible, because it is formost.
But most people can do morethan what they're able to do and
love it.
And if they could learn to loveit, I guess it just depends on
what they're being taught,because at the end of the day,
if I work at a company whereeveryone's acting burned out,
I'm going to be burned out,whether it's 40 or 80 visits a
(39:33):
week.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Totally, and I think it also comes down to when
you're not working.
Where does your mind go?
And I think that's a reallyinteresting thing.
So, for me, when you listen tomusic or you listen to a book on
tape or you listen to something, where does your mind go?
What does it do?
My mind is always creating.
(39:56):
My mind is always like, oh mygosh, this would be so cool.
Hey, have I.
And literally like it's justpart of this piece where it's
like I want to take in the world, like have you ever been to a
place that you've never seenbefore?
You show up and you're justlike, oh my God, I'm in magic.
And so this idea that you haveto be grinding all the time in
your clinic I disagree with thatand I believe there's a world
(40:20):
where you can justify takingthree days, bringing your whole
team to a new environment once ayear and getting them reset
with inspiration, because theminute you turn something
different in your mind, I feellike all your particles just
shift.
Is the way I look at it.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
It's true, Travel does that for people, and it
doesn't have to be an exoticplace.
It can be somewhere justdifferent and change.
There's all theseneuroscientists that are talking
about brushing your teeth withthe opposite hand or just doing
things a little bit different,because it completely
re-stimulates your brain to bemore present and to grow and
adapt.
But at the end of the day,we're all creators and I love
(40:59):
that piece of like.
Where does our brains go whenit's a positive place, a growth
mindset, when we're not feelinglike a victim or suppressed by
the problems we face?
Our brains organically create,and so that idea of like,
leveraging that, leveraging that.
But we can't going back to ourconcept of value.
(41:20):
I just feel like, as people arelistening, that I hope they
understand that when they canstep into their power and charge
with their worth that it'sprofitability that unlocks
possibility.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
My point on that just to piggyback on this value
piece is no one should judge youbased on the value you choose
and you should not pick itbecause someone else tells you
this is your value.
Don't let others dictate yourvalue.
So even when I say the $50,000thing, I'm envious that he sees
(41:50):
his value as 50,000.
I'm envious of it.
At this point in my reality Ican't value myself in that.
Call it self-esteem, call itwhatever.
I'm an under-promise,over-deliver person and the idea
of me creating $50,000 worth ofvalue to someone is
overwhelming to me.
And when I say, if I'm creatingwhat I call as an exchange of
(42:11):
$50,000, for me it's like youbetter be able to create 85 to
$150,000 of perceived value tojustify that.
So anyone that could do that, Iactually envy them.
So just because someone downthe street is charging 225 and
you're like that's ridiculous.
You find your number.
But don't get stuck whereyou're valuing yourself based on
(42:33):
what's around and what'savailable.
Value yourself based on whatyou're willing to fight for and
what that tipping point is.
And tipping point is everythingvalue is a product of.
When that tipping point comes,you're like I don't need it then
.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
so my question to you , brandon, is what do you think
pts, ots, should be charging?
If they were cash pay, what isthe range of money that you
would say to challenge them interms of value?
I know it's going to bevariable based on what they're
doing, and all that because it'stoo hard to float through a
single number for all things,but what would you say would be
an interesting range for peoplewho are listening to this to go?
Yeah, this is what an expertthinks that we should be
(43:08):
charging, cash pay-wise for a PTvisit.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
So I'd rather put it into this perspective.
I think that an optimum resultis worth $225 per billable hour
$225 per billable hour.
cash not discounted for optimumresults, meaning that, hey, if
(43:32):
you said to me right now, in 16visits I can get you 75% more
functional than you are today,I'll drop $2.25 an hour for
every visit.
To get to that point, you gotto be able to create an outcome.
One of the issues is we'relosing our value because we're
believing in continuous care,which just means we keep
(43:54):
treating until they dischargethemselves.
You have to have clear anddefined value goals, not
value-based based on like pay aslittle as you can for as much,
but literally like what is thisworth to you?
So to me, to operate withoutpain is worth this, and I'm
going to throw this out to thecrowd.
Me, to operate without pain isworth this, and I'm going to
throw this out to the crowd.
(44:14):
How much would you spend toensure that you never have
cancer in this lifetime?
And I have a lot of moneybecause I'm seeing it firsthand
with family there is no dollar.
So if you have a solution thattruly changes the entire quality
of life, why can't you valuethat at $225 an hour?
Speaker 1 (44:36):
I agree with you 100% and I bet and I know there are
people who charge more becauseit is that was a very like fair.
I don't even think that was, Idon't think that was generous, I
think that was conservative.
In terms of what, again, itdepends on the condition and
what we're treating.
If someone's coming with a mildsprain, who honestly could
probably self-rehab, that mightbe different than someone who's
coming in with chronic back painand you're the expert that can
(44:57):
help break through.
But at the end of the day, aspeople are listening, here's the
numbers on that.
At what Brandon just said tomake $100,000 a year if you were
working for yourself with nooverhead, if you're just like
$100,000, that's eight and ahalf visits a week.
So what if you did have someoverhead?
Great, Turn that to 10 andyou're making six figures.
Now, what if you were seeing 20visits a week and charging that
(45:19):
amount?
How much?
I mean, you're not even atone-on-one for an hour, which,
by the way, pt's coming out ofschool at least.
I don't know about OTs and SLPs, but PT's coming out of school
or train that they have to doone-on-one for an hour, because
anything less than that sucks,which blows my mind.
I would go crazy with boredomat one-on-one for an hour, but
if I was able to see 20 visits aweek and make $200,000 a year
(45:39):
profit, that means I'm in aplace where I'm only working
one-on-one for an hour, for 20hours a week.
It's insane.
It's like everything starts toreverse.
If we started to step into ourpower and charge a little bit
more of what we're worth Welland I'm going to throw one other
perspective out.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
The average family of four spends almost $7,000 for a
vacation to Disney.
Whoa, $7,000.
And that's like that's that.
So I come back to, like you goand you spend and all this stuff
, and I look at it in this wayWell, how many people average
(46:17):
$50 or more for a check of food,whether it be family or whatnot
?
Like oh, like 1500, whatever?
Like when a coffee is five to$7, how can we not justify 200?
And I brought up the 225because I'm an under-promised,
over-deliver.
I want that 225.
(46:38):
I want you to come back and sayyou should charge 275.
That's always my goal is youcould have charged more.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah, and people, if they started stepping into their
value, their clients would showup because they're like
obviously this guy Part of whatyou guys are hearing rock stars
as your owners and as your PTsI'd have your PTs listen to
today's episode is that thereason you're struggling with
your patients and the reasonthey don't show up is because
they don't perceive the value.
One of the easiest ways we canhelp them understand and
(47:06):
perceive our value is bycharging what we're worth.
This is assuming you can getthe outcomes.
If most of your patients arebringing you cookies, it's
because you can get the outcome.
So what if you could just startowning that and start charging
what you're worth?
It only would you get better,happier patients.
Ironically, they're not gonnabe upset that you're charging
them more and you might be going.
(47:27):
Well, what about the people whocan't?
Great, once you haveprofitability, you'll have
enough money to know other waysto support those populations,
but for now, showing what we'reworth only helps the patient,
you and the industry.
And I love, brandon, thatyou're going into this.
How can people get a hold ofyou, brandon?
Because I think there's.
I would say this you're one ofthose people I absolutely
(47:48):
validate.
What if a PT owner wants towork with you and understand
more about what you're talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
So easywellnessworksmpcom is one of
my companies Alsogrowthcodeconferencecom.
I've got a conference coming upin January.
Will's gonna be there and veryexcited.
It's four days of learning.
Everyone that has gone to thisconference honestly they're like
it's an experience like noother.
It is technically geared forpediatric private practices, but
(48:16):
99% is applicable to anyone andthe concept is just bringing
people together with thoughtleaders, collaboration and
honestly pushing your mind tothe break.
That is part of the growth codeis how do I push you so hard
that you're ready to just runthrough fire with me?
And yeah, those are the ways toreach me.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
Yeah, I want to validate the event.
I'm so glad you brought it upbecause I was worried you
wouldn't.
That event that I get thepleasure of speaking at has been
told to me by people across theindustry that do not BS me that
it is the single greatest eventin the physical therapy
industry and occupationalindustry and in the speech
industry, and so I initiallyreached out to you just being
(49:00):
like, hey man, how can I supportit?
Because I was deep downdreaming to speak at it.
So the fact that I get to be apart of it is huge.
So rock stars come visitBrandon and I at this event at
the end of January.
Can you give them the dates andthe location?
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yeah, january 30th to February 2nd.
It's going to be in MiamiFlorida.
Come on, literally, coralGables, florida, beautiful From
morning to night.
We are in it to win it, and sogrowthcodeconferencecom.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I'll put that in the show notes as well.
Brandon, it's been such anabsolute pleasure to have you on
the show.
I have to have you backsometime, Absolutely, Thank you.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to listen to today's
episode.
As a thank you, I have a gift.
In today's show notes.
There's a link for you to jointhe stress-free PT newsletter.
This is a comedy newsletter foranyone who works in healthcare
(49:50):
and of course we're going tohave comedy bits.
We're going to haveinspirational stories,
leadership bits.
It's going to be a weeklynewsletter just to lighten your
week, to help you do what youlove with more passion.
So click that link below andjoin that newsletter and we'll
see you in our next episode.
rock stars.
Welcome to the willpowerpodcast.
Our very special guest isbrandon siegel.
He's a best-selling author, aninternationally recognized
private practice guru, and Iwant to validate that I don't
just bring anyone on the show.
These are people that Iabsolutely personally guarantee
will provide you with maximumvalue.
He he's the president ofWellness Works Management
(00:23):
Partners.
He has 20 years of leadershipexperience, but what he's known
for is leadership, and his nicheis more in the pediatric space,
but everything we're going totalk about is applicable to the
entire healthcare field.
Today's message is all aboutvalue, qualitative versus
quantitative.
Here's why this is important.
The single greatest problem inour industry is that we don't
(00:47):
occur to ourselves as doctors inour community and we don't
charge what we're worth, whichis why insurance companies take
advantage of us, why it's hardto compensate our employees or
for them to even make the moneythat they would want to make,
because we're not aboutprofitability.
So he's gonna help youunderstand the difference, and I
would have all of your teammembers listen to today's
(01:07):
episode.
It's a master class on how tounderstand money and what you
can do about it to start makingmore money and working less.
Guys enjoy the show.
So, brandon, do you believethat physical therapists
understand their value?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I don't believe that physical therapists understand
how to define their value, and Ithink, as a result, what's
happening is we're teachingtherapists only how to create a
qualitative value.
We are not helping themdiscover the quantitative value,
and I think that is.
The mistake in our currenteducation system is that we
(01:46):
don't spend enough time inliterally breaking down the
equivalency between qualitativevalue and quantitative value.
So therapists are going to comeout saying I'm the best
therapist, I am a manualtherapist, I'm incredible, all
this stuff and then when I sayhow much is that worth, they
look like I have a gun, and so,literally, I think this is one
(02:10):
of the biggest barriers, becausehow can I create a value
proposition if I don't have adefined quantitative value that
I put on myself?
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So clarify that please for people who are going
qualitative, quantitative, whatis that distinction?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
So qualitative means of value, the quality of care
that I create, outcomes that youfeel better after you've been
with me.
So I'm a great therapistbecause, qualitatively, will
you're out of pain, you feelgood, I've done my job.
So you give yourself an A+.
Quantitative means that you'reable to put a financial number
(02:47):
on the value of what you justgave.
So, in your mind, will, if Iwere able to remove all pain
from you for the next six months, what is the value of what you
just received and how do youdefine that value?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
proposition, so that's like the money part of it
.
In other words, in terms of me,when you said that right now
we're talking with me havingrecently injured my rotator cuff
and so I have to go to aphysical therapist, and as you
were talking, I was thinkingabout what if someone said to me
confidently oh I can get thatcompletely better right in the
next six weeks, but here's whatyou need to do.
What number would I want or bewilling to pay and I guarantee
(03:31):
it's higher than most PTs wouldbe willing to say?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well, and I think part of the problem is we don't
know how to showcase enoughresults to allow someone to find
that financial value.
And so one of the bestexperiences I ever had full
transparency is when my daughterwas young.
I took her to a physicaltherapist and an occupational
(03:54):
therapist.
It was both and they actuallydid an evaluation in front of us
and then they did treatment andthey were able to show, within
a 90-minute process, a totalchange in function to say, buy
into our program.
So I paid probably $1,500 forthe eval and I was like that's a
lot, but let's see.
And then they had me sold.
I was like you can't put anumber on what this is, because
(04:16):
what you just showcased was nottime, it was not action, it was
results.
And so if we're really asqualitatively good as we say we
are, then why can't wefinancially value the value of
what we're going to create forsomeone?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, what are the problems that come from us as an
industry, not understanding howto quantitatively define our
value.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Well, and then you know so I told you this earlier,
but I'm going to say it againfor everyone is I went to a
physical therapist today andprivate pay physical therapist.
Now, kind of to give you somebackstory I was referred to a
pelvic floor physical therapistfrom my doctor but my wife,
who's an occupational therapist,said no, no, no, no, no, not
(05:02):
yet, you're not ready for thatand you're going to hate
biofeedback.
She was like you're going tohate it, so you don't want that.
And I'm like, okay.
And she's like you're going togo to this physical therapist
because everything in your bodyis so tight that it doesn't
matter what a pelvic floortherapist does.
You need this first in orderfor your muscles and whatnot.
And I'm not a therapist, I'm abusiness guy.
But I'm like okay, yes, yes,honey, whatever you want, I show
(05:26):
up to this therapist's officeand he's quality-wise, he's good
.
I liked what he had to do, butthe experience had room for
opportunity and the biggestthing that I think with him was
he is a really good clinician,his ability to take a good
(05:49):
clinical approach and turn itinto a value of experience where
I walk away like, oh my God, Ijust spent the best investment
of the day.
This like made my day and itreally he had the clinical
skills to do it.
He didn't know how to put itinto that next gear.
And what was sad was when wegot to the checkout period where
he's like I'm like how much doI owe you?
(06:11):
Again, he'd already sentpaperwork, I had already signed
it, everything, and he said youknow, this is how much it costs.
But since you and I stopped him, I said look, I'm going to be a
business coach right now.
Don't cheapen your value.
If that's your price foreveryone else, don't treat me
any different.
And granted, he knew I'm likein the industry and whatever I
go, hold your own buddy.
Like you earned it, you own it.
(06:33):
So it comes back to this idea ofwhether you're a practice owner
or a therapist or whatever, youneed to be able to own that
value.
And at the end of the day, wealso know when someone's not
worth their value.
And so sometimes people alsooverplay their card.
(06:53):
And so I bring this up becauseon the recruitment side, I
always let them show me theircards before I show them.
I'm a big believer in that anda lot of.
So I want to be clear.
I set a magnet when I recruitthat says this is what the job
looks like, this is what the paylooks like, all those different
things.
But once they apply, they haveto go through what I call the
analysis of fit component.
(07:14):
And when we are analyzing fit,it starts with what does the
fuel that they require and whereis that destination going to be
?
Based on that fuel, meaningphysical therapist, how much
they want to make, what does it?
Are they doing 30 minutes, 45minutes, 60 minutes, 40 minute
visits?
Do they need aids?
Do they not?
Are they in a clinic?
Are they in the home?
(07:34):
All these different factorsthat we look at.
And how hard do they want towork?
What does lifestyle look likefor them?
And that allows us to measurethis.
But when someone comes to youWill and says you know, I'm
looking for and I have thishappen all the time, I'm looking
for over six figures and I'mlooking to do see about 25
(07:55):
patients a week and I'm like 25minimum, 25 goal, because that's
a whole different thing.
I want to be clear 25 deliveredmeans that we're scheduling 30
to 35, just so that we that'sour minimum 25.
Seen to you might be, I onlywant 25 scheduled.
Well, now you've overplayedyour hand, and so it comes down
(08:16):
to.
It's really easy to quicklyidentify when a therapist has no
way to financially valuethemselves, and to me, this is
the first thing we should learnin life.
This is what we should betraining our kids for.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're a physical therapist,
you're a landscaper, you're apool man, a baseball coach or
(08:37):
whatever.
You have to be able to know howto value yourself based on ROI,
based on the benefit thatyou're delivering.
And so I bring it up, becausethere are baseball coaches
making more than physicaltherapists right now.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
And that's the whole problem we're facing.
We're realizing thisdiscrepancy that exists in our
industry.
The way it looks more directlyfor students is where they come
out of school with a studentloan debt, because the
universities know how to valuewhat they do.
You know, and there's a wholedebate on that, but like they
understand that, hey, listen,for a doctorate level degree
you're going to have to pay$130,000 in money.
(09:17):
Students are taking that on andthen they're going into a
profession that doesn't know howto value itself.
And, ironically, theeducational institutions are
perpetuating to the PTsthemselves how to undervalue
themselves individually.
So then you have theseindividuals and an institution
to where people are leavingbecause they're in a position
(09:38):
where they don't understand whatthey're worth.
And to your point, if we knewwhat we were worth as PTs, we
would know how to chargeappropriately for our patients.
We would understand as owners,how to recruit better because we
know what we're worth.
But this whole idea ofunderstanding quantitatively
what we're worth is driving themajority of all of our problems.
(09:59):
And that's why insurancecompanies are taking advantage
is because, you know, we look atthem as the big bad wolf, and I
still think they kind of are.
But at the end of the day,they're the ones who are taking
advantage of just what we'rewilling to not understand about
ourselves.
Which is what we should becharging in terms of visits,
what we should be collecting interms of cash.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Well, and in my opinion, at the end of the day,
the value of ourself is based on, in my opinion, two drivers.
One is the qualitative ROI,meaning how much is that quality
worth to you?
So I want to get leather in acar.
So it's going to cost me thismuch more because of quality of
(10:39):
life.
Like what's that qualitativevalue?
So why did I go to a private payperson when my doctor referred
me to, being very transparent, afranchise PT clinic?
That was a mill.
I could have gone throughinsurance, I could have had a
$10 copay and I opted to go fullcash.
(10:59):
And you're like well, you canafford it.
I go.
No, it's how I value it.
I'm not going to Italy, I'm notgoing on vacation, I'm not
doing what I'm doing, I'mvaluing it.
So one is that component of Iput a qualitative ROI on the
care I'm going to get.
But then the second variable,which is kind of understood as
(11:20):
affordability Can they affordwhat that qualitative ROI is?
And what's happening is ourindustry is attracting more and
more people that say my goal isto serve those who are
underserved and cannot affordquality services.
(11:40):
But the problem is when someoneI give it, I go back to that
book, the Giving Tree.
What happens at the end of theday?
The tree dies Like sorry if youhaven't read it, but bottom
line is the tree dies.
So I bring it to everyone tosay don't devalue yourself where
your tree is going to die.
It's not your problem to solvetheir crisis.
(12:01):
And I come back to whoseproblem is it to solve when they
have big student loans?
Is it your problem?
Well, if all the therapists youhire have 60, 100, $150,000
student debt, did you tell themto get that debt?
No, no, no.
At the end of the day, the twothings I always say is would you
buy a home with a variableinterest rate that goes up or
(12:24):
down every year?
And I bring that up becausethat's what we're doing with our
salaries and our employees iswe hire someone who accepts our
job and sometimes within threemonths, six months, 12 months,
whatever they're like, oh, Ineed more money, my cost of
living went up, or this or that.
I'm like you need to know whatthey value themselves at five
years from now.
You need to know what theyvalue themselves at five years
(12:46):
from now.
You need to budget for wherethat balloon payment is going to
be, because it's going to catchyou.
And I guess one of the thingskind of tying back to value I'm
a big believer in is I'm likewhatever I can pay you five
years from now, I can pay youtoday.
So would you rather me give youthe value of today for today,
(13:06):
or would you rather me slow playyou so that you get your value
today, five years from now?
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Right, I love that.
Well, and I think the big thinghere is that when we are
undervaluing ourselves, I don'tthink we understand that we are
hurting the patients, theindustry and ourselves.
Because here's the thing Ithink most PTs are thinking when
they're devaluing themselves,First of all, I don't even think
they're aware that they'redoing it, but when they are,
they justify it at least I usedto to be like well, the reason
(13:35):
I'm not, you know, charging morefor my services or whatever, is
because I'm not about the money.
That's a common phrase in ourindustry.
I'm not driven by money.
However, there's a bigdifference between not being
motivated by money and notunderstanding its impact in my
world, like that giving tree, IfI'm not, it's just a fuel.
It's not good or bad,inherently right.
(13:56):
So when PTs oftentimesundervalue their services, they
think they're doing somethingcharitable.
So explain the difference,Brandon, in that regard.
When is charity appropriateversus what we're talking about,
which is paying what is orcharging what we are worth to
our clients?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
So my viewpoint on this is no margin, no mission,
plain and simple.
And in a world whereeverything's evolving, if we
prioritize what I'm going tocall patients, employees, other
shareholders and not ourbusiness algorithm, we will not
sustain what is to come.
(14:37):
That is just a fact.
And so the reason whyconsolidation is happening is
not because people are gettinggreat valuation and out In the
last three years.
The reason why consolidation ishappening is because people
with money are seeing that otherpeople can't do a good enough
job, and so how many people doyou know?
When they get acquired by aprivate equity company within
(14:59):
three years, that practice lookstotally different than when it
was acquired Everyone, Okay.
So my viewpoint is if you reallydon't want it to get to that
level, prioritize your margin,and whatever you don't need you
can give away after the fact.
So sustain what you have, getyour 15, 20, whatever your
margin goal is, and then you cango and give back, and then you
(15:22):
can say I'm going to donate tothis cause, and they do.
Scholarships in which thosescholarships go to create
accessibility.
But the number one polarizingviewpoint right now is am I here
to create qualitative outcomesor am I here to create
accessibility to outcomes, butthey contradict each other.
(15:45):
Qualitative outcomes andaccessibility of outcomes
contradict because qualitativecosts more than accessibility.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yes, it does, and I think that they think they're
being kind and generous whenthey're making it accessible to
all.
But then how often do theystruggle with patient compliance
and attendance?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Well and this is my other statement is if you don't
care about money, then why areyou starting your own business?
So, even like this therapistthe other day, he said to me
he's like, look, honestly, mynumber one priority is just to
give great care.
And I got into this to givegreat care.
(16:28):
I'm like, well, you couldn'thave given good care at your
previous employership.
And he's like, well, no, I wasgiving great care.
There I go.
What's the difference?
Like, well, I want to make moremoney.
I'm like, so, own it.
And I say that in this way ofwe prioritize baseball contracts
, movie stars, etc.
(16:49):
Do you think the Rock givesanything with the fact that he's
making hundreds of millions ofdollars to literally show up and
say do you know what the Rockis smelling?
or whatever his slogan is, and Isay it this way, I don't
understand why we can't getbehind the idea that the cancer
doctor should get a milliondollars, the physical therapist
(17:10):
should get, like why You'resaving lives.
Fortunately, I've never had oneof my children in the NICU, but
if I went to a parent and saidhow much is it worth this NICU
to save your child, they wouldsay I will leverage every penny
(17:31):
in my name to save my child.
Somehow we've lost that valueof what it represents, because I
think we have this entitlementthat it should just be there.
But where in the world did weget this idea that it's
universally and I'm not talkinglike political, I'm not talking,
you know, universal healthcareand all that.
(17:53):
What I'm talking is is, at theend of the day, we think that
the best quality care shouldcome for free and I don't
understand that mindset.
What other industry has that?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
free and I don't understand that mindset.
What other industry has that?
Yeah, it's true, because inhealthcare we as a profession
struggle with money overall, butno one liked the PTs and OTs.
The PT, ots, slps, inparticular, are in a place where
we are so confused about itthat probably what some people
rock stars that are listeningheard what you just said,
brandon.
Some of them probably startedto feel uneasy about this idea
(18:27):
of taking a family with a kid inthe NICU and recognizing that
they'd be willing to pay thatmoney because the healthcare
provider that we've been trainedto be might hear that like
taking advantage.
And what I think is importantfor the listeners and rock stars
to understand is that there isa point of which you are taking
(18:47):
advantage and that's not theproviders.
I say this all the time,brandon.
I believe that every PT, ot andSLP should make as much money
as they want, meaning they couldmake lots of money, become
incredibly wealthy, because it'sonly with the profitability
that you can do things to turnit into charity, like you can't
(19:09):
give away what you don't haveand when you devalue your
practice.
We're not talking aboutovercharging, but what we're
recognizing is we're soundercharged that charging a
fair exchange feels like we'reripping people off because of
the way we've been programmed.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Well, and it's interesting because if, from my
experience and you may havedifferent experience when I've
gone to places that havesocialized medicine like Canada
the people actually value theprivate pay so much greater.
It's this mindset of like, hey,no, I'm ready to pay whatever
it takes to get what I need, buthere it's like, well, why isn't
(19:45):
my insurance covering it?
And part of that is thepremiums cost.
So I do want to get back toyour statement that I do agree
that two of the variables orwe'll say ingredients, that's a
better word that are plaguingour industry right now are,
plain and simple, our healthinsurance system, because
(20:06):
they're making buckets andbuckets and buckets and buckets
and buckets of money and there'sno regulation.
It's kind of like that's anissue, and I think it's also the
idea that I pay $10,000 a yearand get $100,000 of healthcare
benefits doesn't make sense,comes back to that growth.
So the whole idea of insurancethey're betting on not giving
(20:27):
you services is my point.
The second thing that isplaguing our system is our
college graduate programs.
These programs are notpreparing people for the real
world.
They're preparing people enoughto have a licensure and enough
to have enough debt to last alifetime.
(20:48):
And it's amazing because Iremember what the unit cost of
school was when I went toundergrad and what it is now.
It's like a thousand percentmore.
I'm not exactly it's insane.
It's insane and I don'tunderstand.
There's a point in which I'mnot exactly.
It's insane, it's insane andand I don't, I don't understand.
There's a point in which theprofession's not worth the cost
(21:10):
of the degree.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I agree, and it's crazy that out my school.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
It's also a school that sells an OTPT degree.
That makes no sense to me whysomeone would get both degrees
because I can't get double thepay Like what's my benefit?
I just studied, now I'm an OTand a DPT Like and I'm sorry if
you've bought into that programbut financially you're not worth
more to me as an employer.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Just plain and simple , same with any alphabet of the
suit behind your name.
Like there's this thoughtprocess of if I keep developing
my qualitative value, somehowit's going to make sense
quantitatively back on the backend.
But you and I both know thequantitative value comes from
knowing what you're worth at anylevel, so you can continue to
(22:17):
add qualitative value.
But if you're never going todevelop your ability to
understand your quantitativevalue, it doesn't matter.
As an employer, we're stillgetting paid the same because
you're still under billing.
That's the problem.
We have a broken healthcaresystem combined with these
educational components.
I agree with you a thousandpercent on that.
But here's what's funny when PT,ots and SLPs are undercharging
(22:38):
for their services, they thinkthey're helping the patient.
Do you know?
I know Brandon already knowsthis, but Rockstars do you know
who is benefiting from that?
The insurance companies.
So here's you tell me who'sovercharging right?
Last year, unitedhealthcare, inthe physical therapy practices
and OT practices I've consulted,reimbursed anywhere between $50
(23:00):
to $70 a visit across thecountry.
Last year, unitedhealthcaremade $284 billion of profit.
So when you are waving awayco-pays and helping the patient
lower their fee because you'remaking it more accessible, what
you're doing is giving them moreprofits and you're allowing the
(23:21):
patient and you, as the pt andthe owner practice, to bear that
burden.
So this might be a greatmessage for pt owners to give to
their, their pts and ots andslps and go hey, listen, listen
to this, this podcast, becauseat the end of the day, I don't
think we're aware of thatconnection.
That's what universities, ifuniversities educated in that
Brandon, how cool would that be.
(23:42):
If universities are like, let'stalk about how to develop you
quantitatively more valuable,not just qualitatively.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
I think fiscal literacy should be mandatory.
I think understanding how todefine your value and even just
the project of I want you topick your most prized possession
qualitatively, that's the mostmeaningful to you.
How would you quantitativelyput that?
Could you put a quantitativeprice on that?
And I do think it's just.
(24:10):
It's baffling to me that PTsdon't see that when they cheapen
the quantitative value, theydon't increase the qualitative
value, they actually reduce it.
And I give this example of Willand I are going to go out
tonight and we're going to get asteak and we go to that
steakhouse and the steakhousesays, hey, it's normally $59.95
(24:31):
for this steak, but we're givingit to you for $9.99 tonight.
It's a special deal, Will, ifwe decide to go in a week later
and they're like, oh, it's$59.99, aren't you like, well,
that was a $9.99 stake.
Now you're telling me it's$59.99?
.
Like, that doesn't make sense.
Like why am I paying five timesthe value?
Well, that was a discount.
People don't understanddiscounts as value.
(24:53):
They understand discounts asrepresentative of what that
qualitative value is to you.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I agree with that.
By the way, alex Ramosi alwayssays he never discounts his
price.
The price is the price, becausethe second you discount
something, that becomes theunderstanding of what the value
is.
I have a coaching program thatI won't promote here, but I had
a coach tell me I was workingwith practice owners and he told
(25:23):
me when I was launching this.
He said hey, you need to charge, let's start out at $2,000 for
six months.
And to me that number feltinsanely large.
And he goes no, no, I'mobjectively assessing what I
believe the exchange is.
He goes you're undervaluing itat $2,000, but it is your first
group.
He goes we're actually going toraise that significantly after
you get some social proof.
So I started at $2,000.
After six months he comes backto me.
He goes now you're going tocharge $8,500 for the same
(25:44):
course.
And I thought he was insane.
And this is the PT in me.
This is the educational systemI came through.
That was even though I owned apractice.
This was how this showed up forme in terms of quantitative
valuation.
So when I started to chargemore Brandon, you know what
happened because you know thisprocess the quality of my
clients got better.
It was easier to sell.
(26:05):
It wasn't harder to sell.
It was actually easier to sellbecause when someone sees that
you're pricing it high, there'san emotional experience for
people who only see that $59steak as like well, it must be
insanely delicious, right.
And so, again, there's a lot ofpeople out in the industry who
are figuring this out in the B2Bspace, where there's coaches
(26:26):
helping PT practice owners whoare really good at pricing it
high and bringing the sizzle,but their qualitative value
isn't actually matching up totheir quantitative, but they're
actually doing pretty goodbecause of that.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah, well, it's interesting you say this because
I had an experience about ayear ago and there's someone in
the industry that charged,there's a couple of people that
charged $50,000 for theirprograms and my wife was like,
why don't you do that?
I'm like I can never sellanything at a $50,000 package.
(27:01):
She's like why?
I'm like?
Because I'm call it spiritual.
I'm spiritually not at a placewhere I put that value on myself
, where I would pay myself forthat.
And I come back to you have tobe willing to buy what you're
selling, and that's so important.
Willing to buy what you'reselling, and that's so important
.
So I can't tell you how manytherapists I find they want
(27:22):
these huge salaries when they'reemployees and then when they
become employers, they don'twant to pay the salaries that
they wanted.
I'm like you were there, that'swhat you wanted.
Yeah, but I was different.
I'm like there's no difference,it's the same thing.
They don't know what I wentthrough.
I go, that's not their lifejourney.
But you have to recognize thatyou've been there and I think
that the what I call pain in thebutt employees that become
(27:45):
practice owners, they have themost challenging time because
when they start to see otherpain in the butt.
Therapists are like how darethey?
I'm like you were the same.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
They just see.
They understand it like whenyou own a practice you get the
money piece so fast.
I would say that most ownersquickly start understanding.
It's the school of hard knocksthat teaches them.
This is what the quantitativeimpact is for you as the owner
and when you're an employee,especially when you come from
our educational systems that wego through brandon.
I think there's this idea oflike well, the owner must be
killing it financially.
They have no idea that if thatowner was paid per hour for what
(28:23):
they put into their business,they make way less than the
people that work for them inmost cases.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, and that's why, for me, 95% of what I coach and
work on is comp structures, andit comes down to full
transparency.
It comes down to we want tobuild a KPI list that they
understand.
So I say what is the totalpeople expense for that employee
, not just the wages, that's theEMR, that's all these variables
(28:49):
that go up and down, thatcreate affordability or
inaffordability related to thatemployee, and how much revenue
do they get of what theygenerate?
And you'd be surprised.
And so I'm like, hey, you get40% of the revenue you generate.
Like, oh, that sounds great.
And then they're like, oh, I'monly getting $58 from UHC.
I'm like, yeah, now you knowthe problem.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
You know.
So this is important, rockstars, for people to hear this,
because Brandon is a clinicalexpert, which I don't use that
term loosely.
There's many businesses andcoaching groups that are popping
up that do not, in my opinion,match that, and here's why
Experts have either done itthemselves or have shown that
(29:31):
they can do it for others in avery reproducible way, and
oftentimes oversell themselvesbecause they understand this.
This is where, like, the coinis flipped, where sometimes
these um, quote-unquote expertsare quantitatively showing up as
experts but qualitativelyaren't, and it's like people
don't know the differencebecause they don't know what
they don't know.
So when I say that brandon isan expert, I mean he is an
(29:51):
expert.
How do you help your clientsestablish this?
Because you went through, likethe kpi piece and you mentioned
this, this whole thing aboutcompensation structures.
But, as an expert, how do youhelp your clients establish this
?
Because you went through theKPI piece and you mentioned this
whole thing about compensationstructures.
But can you walk us throughjust some of your things that
you help people do?
I have a lot of things I do soI'm not going to bore you.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
You can Google me.
But the bottom line is, I wouldsay a majority of people come
to me when they're havingtrouble with their comp
structure, and it all stems fromseveral things.
One is they don't understandtheir numbers, so the first
thing we have to do is figureout their business algorithm.
Their business algorithm is allof the data that makes up their
output, if that makes sense.
(30:27):
And so, from a quantitativestandpoint, what are your
expenses versus income?
How do you break it down andhow do you build an algorithm so
that you're consistentlycreating the same pizza pie day
in and day out?
Okay, Once we know thateverything fits that, and then,
when I communicate it, I go toWill and I go Will.
You're incredible.
You're worth 10X of what theindustry standard is.
(30:50):
The reality is, we're a vehicleof change and in order for us to
get to a destination, we haveto have the right fuel that we
can afford.
Right now we're in insurancepractice.
This is our affordability.
It's not based on value.
It's not how I feel about youNow.
If you value yourself higherthan what I'm offering, I
totally understand that, andthat's why I do a fit assessment
(31:13):
to make sure your needs, wantsand desires fully align, for not
just today, but for the nextfive years.
And sometimes we will say thatthe quantitative logistics and
needs of comp benefitseverything are not your driving
force, and that's what we haveto find out.
What are the drivers and atwhat point are you going to feel
(31:35):
full in gear?
And I bring this up becauseI've full-time therapists that
have been working for me forover 20 years, and 20 years of
retention is not easy and peoplesay, oh, you must pay the most.
I go no, I don't, Because whatI know is every day you can get
a greater dollar somewhere else.
That's just the reality.
And so what I recognize is thatthere's enough needs, wants and
(31:57):
desires being exceeded becauseI'm an under-promised,
over-delivered kind of guy thatthe consistency, reliability and
value they see in myorganization is greater than
just a quantitative compstructure Isn't that interesting
Because that's where we canbalance the quantitative and
qualitative as owners, with thepeople that we're hiring.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
But it starts with understanding the bare bones.
Numbers is what you're saying,right.
Where you go in there and youunderstand their business
algorithm is how you put it,where you're going through the
numbers, the nuts and bolts ofwhat they've established, what
their profit margins are, andthen you layer that with these
combinations of quantitative andqualitative numbers.
And to your point, with thesecombinations of quantitative and
qualitative numbers, and toyour point, like when companies
(32:39):
are only focusing on thequantitative, is when they find
themselves in a race to thebottom Because they are oh,
they're paying $75,000, I'mgoing to pay $80,000.
Oh, they're paying $80,000, I'mpaying $85,000, versus
understanding that value goesbeyond money.
And so it's an interestingproblem because it seems almost
flip-flop from what we weretalking about initially with PTs
(33:00):
.
Right, pts are so focused onthe qualitative but they don't
know how to quantify it.
But as PT owners, they're sofocused on that quantitative
amount that they're not focusingon their qualitative exchange.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I will tell you, though there's a trend that I've
seen in the last probably yearand a half.
That's changing with new grads,and the change is I would
rather make less and have a32-hour full-time job.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I've actually seen that recently in the coaching
call before this People weretalking about, one guy said this
and I'd never heard this before.
He said 80% of his employeesaren't full-time.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
So what's happening is different.
People are defining full-timedifferently and I want to be
clear In the past it was 40hours of full-time, then it was
36, became a trend.
Well, now we're starting to seethis idea of like I'll show
them hey, 40 hours a week, youget this.
(33:53):
32 hours a week, you get that.
Which one do you want?
They're like I want the 32.
And so we're seeing that lesspeople want to put in the 40
hours of time into a job today,which is so weird because, when
you think about it, we have 168hours in a week 168 hours and
(34:14):
we're complaining about 40.
It makes no sense to me, and noother industry I see as don't.
Like, if you go work in thehospitality industry, do you
think they're going to be like,oh, you get 32 hours a week?
No, they're going to be likeyou're going to work 50.
You're going to work whateverit takes.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You're going to work weekends, holidays?
Speaker 2 (34:32):
And what if your favorite restaurant just shut
down because they're like sorry,we've reached our 32 hours for
the week?
It's a little bizarre for me,but I think I'm programmed a
little different.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
No, I'm the same way.
I grew up in, actually, thehospitality industry.
My dad owned a restaurant, sonights, early mornings, weekends
, everything was on the table,pun intended to get working.
And you look at the PTs andthey're just in this place of I
don't know.
Culturally, I don't have a lotto say about it.
What are your thoughts?
Why that trend is bubbling upso much.
So I'm going to tie it to ourvalue piece.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Okay, the people that are entering the workforce or
in the workforce right now nolonger have their bucket filled
in the same capacity as they did10, 15, 20 years ago by what
they're doing.
And I think, as media andthings have changed and reality
TV and this lifestyle of I wantto travel and I want to see
(35:25):
museums and I want to go onprivate jets and like things
that we never saw 20 years ago,now people's, their whole value
system has shifted and the valuesystem is saying look, I don't
want to just live to work, Iwant to work to live.
And for me, being verytransparent, I live to work.
(35:49):
I love what I do.
If you gave me all the money inthe world, I would still work.
I love it.
It's like there's that cause andeffect of being able to create
change.
I would go nuts if I just wason a golf course all day.
Now I know there's not peoplelike me, but I also was that guy
that was busting tables at 15years old.
(36:09):
I grew up middle class, hadeverything I ever needed, what
you would consider like richJewish kid, and I just was born
with this grandfather thatliterally was like Brandon.
Nothing is given to you in life,regardless of the fact that
you're being raised a little bitspoiled, you're going to work
and learn that, like product oflike he was generation
(36:30):
depression.
So I literally was the onlygringo kid busing tables at a
restaurant and I remember fivehours on my feet.
I was tired and they're likebye, we're going to our next job
.
And it taught me that if I'mnot able to grind and enjoy the
grind, my life is going to belimited, and so the number one
(36:52):
lesson I'm trying to teach mykids is to find one thing you
can create and do for 60 hours aweek and be fulfilled, because
if you love what you do, there'snothing that someone can take
away from you.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I love that lesson and I relate to that.
I think there is a mindsetshift around entrepreneurship,
but I do believe that anyone candevelop that mindset.
But it comes from understandingwhat they value.
And I'm the very same way.
I sold my practice.
I'm not in a position where Ihave to work my 50 hours a week.
I choose to out of passion.
It's a passion drive for me andwhat I find is I love creating
(37:29):
possibility with people to thepoint where, when I'm not doing
that, I do like to relax fromtime to time.
But it's like the key thing isto find something that you're so
excited and passionate aboutthat it never feels like work,
and I love that.
You said learn to love the grind, because I have found when I
coach companies I'm sure you'veexperienced this but the company
in New York that has the teamthat's producing like each
(37:52):
therapist, is seeing like 80visits a week or more.
They're maybe, and sometimesequally or less burned out than
the group in Alaska that'sseeing less than 40 visits a
week.
So that tells the audience rockstars.
As you're listening to this,think about that.
Why are they burning out?
Like it's because we keepchoosing to talk about it, and
it's like this message we keepbeating as a drum, when, at the
(38:12):
end of the day, back during thedepression, people loved to have
the blessing to grind to makemoney.
So, yeah, I love that youexplained that, because maybe
what they're just valuing overthe years is shifting around
this like work to live versuslive to work.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Well, and I think that the grind fuels adrenaline
for those that really love it.
So to me, that grind, it givesme an adrenaline.
It's like, oh, let's go.
And there's nothing morerewarding than leaving at the
end of the day and knowingyou've left it all on the table.
You know like it.
Just I put it all out theretoday and I'm not saying like,
(38:51):
don't take breaks, don't I meanagain 168 hours.
I'm not telling you you need todo 100 of 168.
But I'm also a guy that I'mlike, if you can't live off six
hours of sleep, like six hoursis plenty, like I don't need
more, like I'm happy you give mesix, I can roll with that.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
So happy you give me six.
I can roll with that.
I need a little bit more, justfor the audience.
Who's going what?
Because you are a bit of asuperhuman, brandon, I know you
well enough to know that hisstandard might feel a little
impossible, because it is formost.
But most people can do morethan what they're able to do and
love it.
And if they could learn to loveit, I guess it just depends on
what they're being taught,because at the end of the day,
if I work at a company whereeveryone's acting burned out,
I'm going to be burned out,whether it's 40 or 80 visits a
(39:33):
week.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Totally, and I think it also comes down to when
you're not working.
Where does your mind go?
And I think that's a reallyinteresting thing.
So, for me, when you listen tomusic or you listen to a book on
tape or you listen to something, where does your mind go?
What does it do?
My mind is always creating.
(39:56):
My mind is always like, oh mygosh, this would be so cool.
Hey, have I.
And literally like it's justpart of this piece where it's
like I want to take in the world, like have you ever been to a
place that you've never seenbefore?
You show up and you're justlike, oh my God, I'm in magic.
And so this idea that you haveto be grinding all the time in
your clinic I disagree with thatand I believe there's a world
(40:20):
where you can justify takingthree days, bringing your whole
team to a new environment once ayear and getting them reset
with inspiration, because theminute you turn something
different in your mind, I feellike all your particles just
shift.
Is the way I look at it.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
It's true, Travel does that for people, and it
doesn't have to be an exoticplace.
It can be somewhere justdifferent and change.
There's all theseneuroscientists that are talking
about brushing your teeth withthe opposite hand or just doing
things a little bit different,because it completely
re-stimulates your brain to bemore present and to grow and
adapt.
But at the end of the day,we're all creators and I love
(40:59):
that piece of like.
Where does our brains go whenit's a positive place, a growth
mindset, when we're not feelinglike a victim or suppressed by
the problems we face?
Our brains organically create,and so that idea of like,
leveraging that, leveraging that.
But we can't going back to ourconcept of value.
(41:20):
I just feel like, as people arelistening, that I hope they
understand that when they canstep into their power and charge
with their worth that it'sprofitability that unlocks
possibility.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
My point on that just to piggyback on this value
piece is no one should judge youbased on the value you choose
and you should not pick itbecause someone else tells you
this is your value.
Don't let others dictate yourvalue.
So even when I say the $50,000thing, I'm envious that he sees
(41:50):
his value as 50,000.
I'm envious of it.
At this point in my reality Ican't value myself in that.
Call it self-esteem, call itwhatever.
I'm an under-promise,over-deliver person and the idea
of me creating $50,000 worth ofvalue to someone is
overwhelming to me.
And when I say, if I'm creatingwhat I call as an exchange of
(42:11):
$50,000, for me it's like youbetter be able to create 85 to
$150,000 of perceived value tojustify that.
So anyone that could do that, Iactually envy them.
So just because someone downthe street is charging 225 and
you're like that's ridiculous.
You find your number.
But don't get stuck whereyou're valuing yourself based on
(42:33):
what's around and what'savailable.
Value yourself based on whatyou're willing to fight for and
what that tipping point is.
And tipping point is everythingvalue is a product of.
When that tipping point comes,you're like I don't need it then
.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
so my question to you , brandon, is what do you think
pts, ots, should be charging?
If they were cash pay, what isthe range of money that you
would say to challenge them interms of value?
I know it's going to bevariable based on what they're
doing, and all that because it'stoo hard to float through a
single number for all things,but what would you say would be
an interesting range for peoplewho are listening to this to go?
Yeah, this is what an expertthinks that we should be
(43:08):
charging, cash pay-wise for a PTvisit.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
So I'd rather put it into this perspective.
I think that an optimum resultis worth $225 per billable hour
$225 per billable hour.
cash not discounted for optimumresults, meaning that, hey, if
(43:32):
you said to me right now, in 16visits I can get you 75% more
functional than you are today,I'll drop $2.25 an hour for
every visit.
To get to that point, you gotto be able to create an outcome.
One of the issues is we'relosing our value because we're
believing in continuous care,which just means we keep
(43:54):
treating until they dischargethemselves.
You have to have clear anddefined value goals, not
value-based based on like pay aslittle as you can for as much,
but literally like what is thisworth to you?
So to me, to operate withoutpain is worth this, and I'm
going to throw this out to thecrowd.
Me, to operate without pain isworth this, and I'm going to
throw this out to the crowd.
(44:14):
How much would you spend toensure that you never have
cancer in this lifetime?
And I have a lot of moneybecause I'm seeing it firsthand
with family there is no dollar.
So if you have a solution thattruly changes the entire quality
of life, why can't you valuethat at $225 an hour?
Speaker 1 (44:36):
I agree with you 100% and I bet and I know there are
people who charge more becauseit is that was a very like fair.
I don't even think that was, Idon't think that was generous, I
think that was conservative.
In terms of what, again, itdepends on the condition and
what we're treating.
If someone's coming with a mildsprain, who honestly could
probably self-rehab, that mightbe different than someone who's
coming in with chronic back painand you're the expert that can
(44:57):
help break through.
But at the end of the day, aspeople are listening, here's the
numbers on that.
At what Brandon just said tomake $100,000 a year if you were
working for yourself with nooverhead, if you're just like
$100,000, that's eight and ahalf visits a week.
So what if you did have someoverhead?
Great, Turn that to 10 andyou're making six figures.
Now, what if you were seeing 20visits a week and charging that
(45:19):
amount?
How much?
I mean, you're not even atone-on-one for an hour, which,
by the way, pt's coming out ofschool at least.
I don't know about OTs and SLPs, but PT's coming out of school
or train that they have to doone-on-one for an hour, because
anything less than that sucks,which blows my mind.
I would go crazy with boredomat one-on-one for an hour, but
if I was able to see 20 visits aweek and make $200,000 a year
(45:39):
profit, that means I'm in aplace where I'm only working
one-on-one for an hour, for 20hours a week.
It's insane.
It's like everything starts toreverse.
If we started to step into ourpower and charge a little bit
more of what we're worth Welland I'm going to throw one other
perspective out.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
The average family of four spends almost $7,000 for a
vacation to Disney.
Whoa, $7,000.
And that's like that's that.
So I come back to, like you goand you spend and all this stuff
, and I look at it in this wayWell, how many people average
(46:17):
$50 or more for a check of food,whether it be family or whatnot
?
Like oh, like 1500, whatever?
Like when a coffee is five to$7, how can we not justify 200?
And I brought up the 225because I'm an under-promised,
over-deliver.
I want that 225.
(46:38):
I want you to come back and sayyou should charge 275.
That's always my goal is youcould have charged more.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah, and people, if they started stepping into their
value, their clients would showup because they're like
obviously this guy Part of whatyou guys are hearing rock stars
as your owners and as your PTsI'd have your PTs listen to
today's episode is that thereason you're struggling with
your patients and the reasonthey don't show up is because
they don't perceive the value.
One of the easiest ways we canhelp them understand and
(47:06):
perceive our value is bycharging what we're worth.
This is assuming you can getthe outcomes.
If most of your patients arebringing you cookies, it's
because you can get the outcome.
So what if you could just startowning that and start charging
what you're worth?
It only would you get better,happier patients.
Ironically, they're not gonnabe upset that you're charging
them more and you might be going.
(47:27):
Well, what about the people whocan't?
Great, once you haveprofitability, you'll have
enough money to know other waysto support those populations,
but for now, showing what we'reworth only helps the patient,
you and the industry.
And I love, brandon, thatyou're going into this.
How can people get a hold ofyou, brandon?
Because I think there's.
I would say this you're one ofthose people I absolutely
(47:48):
validate.
What if a PT owner wants towork with you and understand
more about what you're talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
So easywellnessworksmpcom is one of
my companies Alsogrowthcodeconferencecom.
I've got a conference coming upin January.
Will's gonna be there and veryexcited.
It's four days of learning.
Everyone that has gone to thisconference honestly they're like
it's an experience like noother.
It is technically geared forpediatric private practices, but
(48:16):
99% is applicable to anyone andthe concept is just bringing
people together with thoughtleaders, collaboration and
honestly pushing your mind tothe break.
That is part of the growth codeis how do I push you so hard
that you're ready to just runthrough fire with me?
And yeah, those are the ways toreach me.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
Yeah, I want to validate the event.
I'm so glad you brought it upbecause I was worried you
wouldn't.
That event that I get thepleasure of speaking at has been
told to me by people across theindustry that do not BS me that
it is the single greatest eventin the physical therapy
industry and occupationalindustry and in the speech
industry, and so I initiallyreached out to you just being
(49:00):
like, hey man, how can I supportit?
Because I was deep downdreaming to speak at it.
So the fact that I get to be apart of it is huge.
So rock stars come visitBrandon and I at this event at
the end of January.
Can you give them the dates andthe location?
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yeah, january 30th to February 2nd.
It's going to be in MiamiFlorida.
Come on, literally, coralGables, florida, beautiful From
morning to night.
We are in it to win it, and sogrowthcodeconferencecom.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I'll put that in the show notes as well.
Brandon, it's been such anabsolute pleasure to have you on
the show.
I have to have you backsometime, Absolutely, Thank you.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to listen to today's
episode.
As a thank you, I have a gift.
In today's show notes.
There's a link for you to jointhe stress-free PT newsletter.
This is a comedy newsletter foranyone who works in healthcare
(49:50):
and of course we're going tohave comedy bits.
We're going to haveinspirational stories,
leadership bits.
It's going to be a weeklynewsletter just to lighten your
week, to help you do what youlove with more passion.
So click that link below andjoin that newsletter and we'll
see you in our next episode.
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