January 23, 2024 • 50 mins
Unlock the secrets to Instagram success with Mishelle Thorpe, the graphic designer who transformed into an online coaching phenomenon. On this episode, we navigate the twists and turns of Mishelle 's incredible entrepreneurial journey, which began at the tender age of eight. Together, we dissect the mistakes that can trip up budding entrepreneurs on social media and delve into the societal hurdles that often discourage women from following their business dreams. Mishelle 's compelling narrative is not just a story of triumph over adversity, but also a masterclass in the resolute mindset and strategic savvy needed to conquer the business world.
Mishelle reveals the transformative power of personal branding, explaining why consistent, authentic visuals and messaging are non-negotiable for trust-building with your audience. Mishelle and host Mackenzie contrast the needs of up-and-coming enterprises with the freestyle approach of celebrities, and we share practical tips on crafting a social presence that resonates and engages, using stories for informal connection, and maintaining a clear distinction between personal anecdotes and business offerings.
Our conversation rounds off with a strategic deep dive into the art of serving through social media, a subtler yet more effective approach than the hard sell. We talk about the journey of turning followers into loyal email subscribers and cultivating relationships that extend beyond the digital sphere. As we explore the intricate dance of content creation that addresses client problems, we provide valuable strategies for leveraging Instagram, from crafting a magnetic bio to navigating the ever-changing landscape of hashtags and algorithms. Join us for this episode, a veritable treasure chest of advice, as we share our experiences and guide you towards making your mark in the busy world of online business.
Mackenzie Kilshaw Co. offers comprehensive business coaching, and consulting tailored to your needs.
With Mackenzie's award winning entrepreneurial expertise in strategy, leadership, business development, branding, website development, social media management, SEO, sales and customer service training and more, clients receive personalized guidance to drive growth and success.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shauna Foster (00:06):
Winning is your guide to making it in business.
Join our award-winning host andentrepreneur, Mackenzie Kilshaw
, and special guests in casualconversations that will educate
and inspire you on your businessjourney.
Winning will help you learn thehard lessons the easy way, with
guidance from celebratedentrepreneurs and business
(00:26):
leaders.
It's fun, it's informative,it's Winning Hello.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (00:31):
I am your host, mackenzie Killshaw, and
today's guest is Michelle Thorpe.
Mishelle Thorpe (00:34):
How are you?
I am doing amazing.
Thank you for having me awesome.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (00:39):
Thanks for being on.
So if you are tuning in and youdon't know about and what she
does, she's a graphic designerwho's built two successful
online coaching business.
Over 90% of her paying clientscome from social media, which is
huge.
We're going to talk a lot aboutsocial media.
She is founder of the ElectricCompany and she creates graphics
and promotional materials forservice-providing women and
(01:01):
nonprofits.
She's an international speakerand she's helped hundreds of
women change their world throughtheir businesses.
So obviously I love women inbusiness.
I love social media.
We're going to get right intothat.
So thank you so much for beingon.
Oh, you're welcome.
It's my pleasure.
It's awesome.
So I gave a little bio aboutyou, but why don't you just
really tell the listeners whoyou are and really what is it
(01:24):
that you do?
Mishelle Thorpe (01:25):
I started my first business when I was eight
years old.
That was back in the 80s.
I knew that entrepreneurshipwas in my blood.
I knew that that's what Iwanted to do.
My first business completelytanked.
I was going to write horoscopesair quotes, for those who are
listening, I am not gifted inthat area, but that didn't stop
(01:46):
me.
I was going to do my thing.
Back then we advertised in thenickel ads.
It was this little publicationthat you paid five cents for and
you could buy an RV or adopt akitten or hire M to write your
horoscope.
Nobody did that, but thatdidn't matter.
I was still so jazzed aboutbeing my own boss.
(02:06):
But somehow I just kind of fellout of that as I followed the
path that I felt like I shouldbe following.
I went to school.
Nothing wrong with getting yourdegree, I'm not saying that.
I went to school.
I pursued the career that myparents wanted me to pursue.
I found myself sitting at adesk at my quote unquote perfect
(02:28):
corporate job.
Realizing that I was justcompletely miserable, I cried.
I pulled my face off at my desk.
People were like what's wrongwith that girl?
I was realizing that I wasmiserable and I didn't know
really how I got there and Ididn't know how to get out.
That was right around the timethat I had an opportunity to
start a coaching business forthe first time.
(02:50):
This was 2017 and we were nolonger advertising in the Nickel
ads Everything was online.
I can write a Nickel ad.
Sign me up for that.
Everyone said, , Instagram iswhere it's at.
You have to be on Instagram.
This is where you're going togrow your business.
I said all right, I'm in, I'mall in.
(03:11):
I didn't have an Instagramaccount.
I know it was 2017 andeverybody was already on
Instagram, but I wasn't.
My bunny was.
I had an account for my bunnyand he was really super cute,
but I decided he has I don'tknow like 500 followers.
That has to be a gold mine,right?
500 people, I'm going to berich tomorrow.
(03:34):
Let's just take over hisaccount, change the username and
post one day about him and thenthe next day post about hey,
I'm a coach now who wants tohire me?
Yeah, I sat back and I waitedfor the credit cards to go in
nothing happened.
Nothing happened.
Surprise, everyone always knowsthat that's coming.
(03:54):
Nothing happened.
I thought, wow, this is goingto sell itself.
500 people, this is ano-brainer.
But I realized really quicklythat nothing sells itself.
No matter how excited you areabout your business, no one else
is going to be as excited aboutit as you are.
So I had to figure it out orjust go back to that miserable
(04:15):
corporate life.
Clearly, I'm here.
So I figured it out.
I'm able to retire fromcorporate life in 2020.
I'm sure we'll dig into that alittle bit as well, but I
realized that there was a wayfor you to sell on social media
and there was a way for you notto.
I was mastering the how to not,and I had to master how to do
(04:38):
it.
Here we are three, four yearslater.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (04:43):
And it really is.
I don't know if you call it ascience or an art or what, but
it's not just like throw a postup there and you're going to get
followers or sales or whateverit is.
Mishelle Thorpe (04:52):
Absolutely not, and people are still making
that mistake to this moment.
People are doing that right now.
They're hitting post, they'reposting and praying, and that is
not a strategy.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (05:02):
I know I hear so many people say well, I post
every day and I'm not gettinganything.
But I'm posting every day.
That's what you're supposed todo.
I'm like well, not necessarilyright.
There's a lot of other factors.
Mishelle Thorpe (05:15):
There's a lot of factors that go into it.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (05:17):
Yeah, we're going to get really into that.
I just want to kind of go backa little bit.
When you said you were eightyears old, you started your
first business and then, ofcourse, you did what kind of
society tells you to go toschool, get the job.
I feel like that's very muchlike how I was too.
I did high school jobs, but Ididn't even realize
entrepreneurship was a thing,and I'm guessing that's kind of
(05:39):
the same for you.
Mishelle Thorpe (05:40):
Yeah, I mean, even up until the time that I
decided that I was going tobecome a full-time entrepreneur
and I shared that with thoseclosest to me it was, oh, that's
scary.
How can you have not aguaranteed paycheck, you don't
have health insurance?
I mean, I think that's justwhere taught, where I don't know
(06:01):
why, I don't know, but thatworking for somebody else is the
only way to go, or risk beinghomeless, and that is absolutely
1,000% not the case.
It's hard.
We could go off about how Ithink there needs to be a lot
more support for entrepreneurialfolks out there, but that's
(06:23):
another time and place.
But no, that is not the onlypath forward, and that's one
thing I preach all the time.
If this is the path that youknow you want to take, take it.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (06:34):
Yeah, I agree , and the thing is I always tell
people to if you never takethat chance, you never know.
And if you take the what?
If that's right, and if youtake that chance and for you it
was taking over your pets pageand being like, okay, now it's
gonna work.
And it didn't work.
You pivoted to how it worked.
You learned, you did make somechanges whatever we're gonna
(06:57):
talk about that but you made itwork, even though at first maybe
that was a failurequote-unquote I like to say
learning experience but maybedidn't work out at first, but
guess what?
Now it really is working out.
Yeah, it will right if you havea good idea, yeah, and you do
the things that you need to do,not just what you think you need
(07:18):
to do, because what you thinkyou're doing social media,
probably is it what's gonna getyou there, right?
Yeah, yeah, we're gonna getreally into it.
Um, okay, but tell us a littlebit more about your coaching and
your expertise.
How did you maybe, like, howdid you get to know all of the
stuff about social media?
Mishelle Thorpe (07:38):
It was kind of around the the time that I
started posting on my bunny'spage and realizing that that
wasn't going to work.
I started, I was a sponge.
I started absorbing all theinformation that I possibly
could from every source,everyone who had made it,
everyone who was more successfulThan I was.
I wanted to know how often?
If social media is, where isthat?
(08:00):
How often should you be posting?
What kind of content should Ibe posting?
Where should I be posting?
I wanted to know all of it.
But I also needed kind ofentrepreneurial one-on-one.
I mean, I was working in thecorporate space, so how am I
supposed to pivot from thismassive company with a
department for everything to mebeing the only person?
(08:21):
So I needed to soak up all ofthat.
And where my pivot point reallywas is I didn't resonate with a
lot of the teachings that were,that were popular back then
about posting it.
You had mentioned it beforeposting every single day, well,
if I'm wearing every hat in mycompany, I kind of don't have
time for that and I'm not yet ata point where I want to hire
(08:42):
someone to do that.
And if you never want to dothat, well, it's just.
You realize there's just thespiral of how am I supposed to
get it all done.
Yes and I felt like I couldn'tdo that successfully without
compromising my personal life.
So I did some trial and error.
I pulled in this piece and thatdidn't work, like the posting
(09:02):
every single day.
Well, what about three times aday?
And what if I really gotspecific with my hashtags?
And what if I really focused onInstagram first and the other
second, third, etc.
Yeah, that is really where Ifound my success and that's
where I started teaching otherwomen how to emulate what I had
done.
Then they had success, and thenothers had success and it just
(09:24):
kind of blossomed from there.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (09:25):
Yeah, that's awesome when you, when you
changed from your bunny page toyour page.
I don't even have this in mynotes, but I want to talk about
branding your brand, like howimportant was that?
Because your page before thatwas about your pet right and
(09:45):
clearly you need to now make itabout how you're a coach and how
you can help other people.
So how important was that brandfor you to get going?
I didn't have branding.
Mishelle Thorpe (09:55):
In the beginning, I didn't understand
the importance of branding andthat now is something that I
really, really stress.
Helping other women with whoare getting started on social
media, branding is absolutelykey, but I was stuck back in
that, oh well, if they want thisresult, they're gonna hire me.
My coaching sells itself andI've said it already, I'll say
(10:16):
it again You're coaching.
Your service providing does notsell itself.
You do need to have a brand.
You need to.
You need to have we're gettinginto the specifics now but you
need to have colors and fontsthat emulates who your business
is, who your target audience is.
You need to have a consistentlook.
(10:37):
Your Social media profilescannot be a collection of random
images or memes that you foundfunny or things that other folks
have created.
They're hiring you.
They want to see you.
They want to see your brand,not someone's page who could be
a business but could be just arandom person sharing funny
(11:00):
things.
Branding is 1000% key.
The lesson I didn't know in thebeginning yeah, I don't think
many people do know aboutbranding honestly, because I'm
kind of the same as you.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (11:06):
I get lots of messages and questions and I go
and I'll go look at a page andI'm not a social media expert,
but I'll just look at somebody'sInstagram page and they're like
tell me what you think.
And I'm like who are you?
Like there's every, there's notheme, there's no, everything is
random.
(11:27):
They don't have a logo or thepicture isn't even of the logo,
it's some random picture.
They like like I I can't eventell by looking at that who you
are as a business, what youstand for, what's important to
you, and Then I'm just lost,right.
(11:48):
So why do I want to follow thatperson or engage in their
content when I don't even likeget it?
Mishelle Thorpe (11:53):
Absolutely, and one misstep and one way.
I think that everyone inbusiness not just entrepreneurs,
but every business owner whythey make these mistakes is they
look at who they look up to onsocial media, usually those that
have a huge following we'retalking like Beyonce or Taylor
(12:14):
Swift level accounts.
Taylor Swift and Beyonce canshow up differently on social
media than anyone else can.
They already have that cloud,they already have that respect.
Together they could put up anypiece of crap and their
followers would be like it'strue, I'll do it, I'll do it,
(12:36):
I'll do it.
We are not of that caliber yet.
I mean, I will never be TaylorSwift.
Let's just be real.
But when you're just startingout, you have to realize that
people don't know you, peopledon't trust you and without
having your ish togethervisually and behind the scenes
(12:57):
when you're delivering thoseservices, no one is going to
trust hiring you.
It's completely different thanthose accounts that you're
looking up to.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (13:07):
Yeah, exactly , and that's why the well I post
every day and I'm not gettingany traction.
That's why, because if you'reposting, if it's your business
page, and you're posting at-shirt and then a cat, and then
your lunch, and then yourfavorite song, and what it
doesn't, people don't care.
I hate to say that, but theydon't care.
Shauna Foster (13:28):
People don't care .
Mishelle Thorpe (13:29):
It is really it's no longer social media.
I've started calling it selfishmedia, because people aren't
really that interested ingetting to know you that deep,
Maybe if they become a huge fanof yours.
But at least initially you haveto hook them with your branding
, with something free that youoffer.
(13:49):
Help them get to know youbefore you show them what you
have for lunch.
That's a personal profile.
You cannot expect businessresults from a personal profile.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (14:00):
Exactly, and I think the thing too is, if
you're doing like a lunch andFridays thing, maybe that goes
on your story where it's aslittle 30 second thing that
you're like every Friday I meetsomebody for lunch, we talk
business and here's where we areand that's it.
It's not a post, it's not areal right, exactly, exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe (14:23):
You're so right .
You don't need me here.
You already know what to do onInstagram.
Anything that is personal innature, is not branded, is maybe
something you found thatsomeone else did that you don't
want to take the time torecreate.
Anything that really is not abillboard for your business
belongs in your stories.
Write that one down.
You don't need to because youalready know.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (14:46):
You know what , though?
I learned it and I'll becompletely honest with you.
As silly as this is, a fewnights ago, I went through my
personal Instagram and I wasscrolling.
I think I was looking for aphoto of something that I knew
happened like six years ago.
So I was just like I'm sureit's on Instagram scrolling
through and I was with my niece,who's in early 20s, and I said,
(15:07):
oh my God, Instagram used to belike Snapchat for us, like I
had pictures on there literallyof my lunch, or like girls night
out, and like a wine glass, andI archived a whole bunch of
photos.
Oh, I know because I was like nonow that's something that you'd
Snapchat to your friend but youdon't post on your Instagram
(15:29):
page.
Oh, and I was like things havechanged.
But if and that's my ownpersonal page, that's not my
like podcast page or anythingbut if somebody went to look at
me and they scroll back, theythink this is weird, right.
So important to look back atwhat you've got on there.
Maybe you're not just startingout, but maybe you look back and
think, okay, this doesn't likefit the times now or my brand
(15:52):
now I've got to get rid of itand just archive it.
Mishelle Thorpe (15:55):
One of the first things that I would go
through when I offered a lot ofone on one coaching was going
through and archiving all thatstuff that does not serve your
brand.
Now, one of the rules of thumbthat really applies to any
platform, but especiallyInstagram, because Instagram is
so visual where the others arekind of combination platforms of
visual and your caption, yourtext, anything like that but
(16:19):
especially with Instagram, is ifyou want to put it on a
billboard and be proud drivingby that on the highway, you
don't want to have it on yoursocial media, especially on
Instagram, and I love that.
I wanted to take a few secondsfor those who don't really grasp
, which is most people.
Don't feel bad if this is yougrasp the difference, why
(16:43):
Instagram is so different fromthe others.
When you go to a businessFacebook page or someone's
business on LinkedIn and you'relooking at their profile, it's
really similar.
It's well more so on Facebook,but it's really similar to that
scrolling feed.
Look, you see what they'veposted.
You see, if they've posted avideo, the description of that
(17:06):
video.
If they've posted a graphic,you can see the caption.
You can really see it all.
But when someone stumblesacross one of your Instagram
posts, they go to your profile.
It's not like that.
It's the grip.
It's those boxes and only theboxes.
So the visuals that you haveposted today back through all of
(17:31):
time.
They have to speak forthemselves and they have to
really captivate that personinto tapping to learn more.
You've only got seven secondsbefore they're on to the next,
so that's why that's where Icome in as a graphic designer.
You have to be so intentionalaround the graphics that you're
posting that you're adding videocovers when they call them
(17:55):
covers on Instagram, it'sthumbnails and other verbiage on
the other platform but that youare in control of how you are
represented on your social mediaprofiles, so that folks aren't
getting the wrong idea or worksnot getting any idea at all and
bouncing over to someone else'sprofile when you've lost them
forever.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (18:14):
Yeah, exactly , because then they're gone.
Mishelle Thorpe (18:16):
Yes.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (18:16):
They're not gonna come back.
No, exactly, okay, we're kindof talking about it, but let's
talk about strategy.
Do you need a strategy forInstagram?
I think we all know the answeryes.
I think.
If you're gonna say no, webetter just listen to this
podcast 20 times over,absolutely.
And what do you need in yourstrategy?
Mishelle Thorpe (18:38):
You really need to be.
Instead of thinking about what'sgoing to look good in a feed or
what fun video can you recreatethat you've seen, you need to
be planning for what your gridis going to look like.
Feed is today, grid is forever,so you need to be intentional
about making sure that yourideal client can see who you are
(19:03):
, that any objections that youcommonly hear about working with
you, that you're able to bustthose through the use of your
graphics.
You have to show them somethingthat's free, that you offer.
Ideally, on a social mediasituation, we're talking about a
free download instead of a freecall, a free course, something
like that, something that theycan digest really quickly if it
(19:26):
gets them on your email list.
And here's one that is so oftenoverlooked a glowing
testimonial, not a bigtestimonial, not where you've
painstakingly written a captionand it took you two hours to get
it right.
They're not going to take thetime to read the caption until
they're compelled to learn more.
Put the highlights on a graphicand then take it a step further
(19:49):
and pin that to the top of yourprofile, so you're all but
ensuring that your ideal clientis going to see that before they
move on.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (19:57):
Yeah, I love that and do you advise people to
use?
I mean, I know you want tocatch someone, you want to catch
their attention, but in theactual post should they be using
just the kind of thecatchphrase I'll say or the
thing that I don't want to say,beat, that's uncerebral, but the
(20:18):
thing that gets their attention, and then more in the caption,
or should they be putting morein the post?
Mishelle Thorpe (20:24):
It's a combination of both we don't
want to be using.
We don't want to oversensationalize.
People are so attuned to what'sclick bait now and they won't
click on it, even if they'reinterested, because they don't
want to be the sucker thatclicked on it.
So we want to be very, veryintentional about how we're
wording it.
If we're sharing tips aboutthis thing, we want to say five
(20:45):
tips to this thing and then getinto it in the caption.
There is still value in knowinghow to write a great caption.
Even with the invention of AIand things like that.
There is still value in thecaption.
But first and foremost, youhave to catch them with whatever
visual it is, or they're nevergoing to read the caption.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (21:05):
That's right.
Yeah, exactly.
So it's kind of a balance and Ithink that is trial and error.
Is that how you find that outfor your audience?
Mishelle Thorpe (21:13):
Yes, it definitely can be, especially
Instagram, and I say Instagrambecause that is my platform of
choice.
But Instagram especially givesyou so many valuable insights,
so you know what kind of contentyour audience is really
interested in.
That said, insights aren'teverything.
Engagement isn't everything.
(21:35):
I have had clients hire me whonever engaged with any of my
content.
I've had clients hire mewithout even following me and
they found me on Instagram and Iknow because of how tags work
and things like that.
But it's really interesting howso many folks put all their
eggs in the engagement basketand they think, well, I'm
(21:56):
getting a lot of likes on myvideos, so I just need to keep
posting videos.
Well, are those people buyingfrom you?
Are they getting on yourmailing list at least?
Are you converting them intoleads for your programs?
If the answer is no, and whoseliking is your mom and your aunt
and your cousin?
They're not your client.
You're audio quiet.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (22:14):
Yeah, exactly .
Mishelle Thorpe (22:14):
So stop catering for those people.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (22:17):
Yeah, and I just heard you talk about
conversion and in my day jobI'll say I talk about or think
about and look at conversion allthe time.
Do you want to just explain?
Because I think for a lot ofpeople, when they're just
starting out and they're OK,I've got to build my Instagram
and everything what exactlywould that conversion be?
Because I think a lot of peoplehear it it's like a buzzword,
(22:38):
but they're not exactly sure andno one wants to ask, right,
because then you're the personthat didn't know what that meant
.
Mishelle Thorpe (22:44):
Exactly, exactly.
And even those that do knowwhat it means.
For when I used to just doInstagram strategy, when that
was kind of my bread and butter,folks would say, oh well, you
sell on Instagram, so you don'thave an email list or things
like that.
And no, having a social mediapresence doesn't mean that
(23:04):
you're selling on social media.
Eventually they'll buy from youand that sale came from social
media or they would never havefound you in the first place.
But what I consider success andwhat I teach my clients, the
kind of conversion you'relooking for on social media, is
converting on to your email list, having them request your lead
(23:26):
magnet, fill out that form andhave you be able to deepen that
relationship with them via email.
Not necessarily and I was goingto say not necessarily, but
absolutely not that you'reposting every single day about I
have this service, it's 50% off, or you can work with me for
$495, or things like that.
(23:47):
No, social media is not whereyou're selling.
It's where you're serving.
And, yes, those conversionswill bolster your business
because you're able to reallyget to know them better and have
them get to know you better.
But social media is not aselling platform in and of
(24:08):
itself.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (24:09):
Right, so really, social media is where
you put the content.
So maybe it's a strategy towhatever, whatever, whatever,
depending on what the person'sdoing.
But then it's going to yourwebsite to get on the email list
to get the free download thatyou're going to help them, and
(24:32):
then probably you should beupselling them on your website
to your paid thing or yourone-on-one coaching or whatever
it is.
Mishelle Thorpe (24:41):
Yes, absolutely absolutely.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (24:43):
People forget this all the time.
They think they only needInstagram and Facebook, but it's
just your stepping stone to getthem to your website email list
.
It's just a mastermind tool.
It cannot exist.
Mishelle Thorpe (24:58):
In a vacuum, you cannot expect a business
success.
It's the only thing you'redoing is posting on social media
100% OK.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (25:06):
Thank you for saying that, because it's
people just think that that likeoh, I have an Instagram shop,
so that's all I need.
Mishelle Thorpe (25:14):
And I think we get a false sense of what it
means to be successful inselling as well.
Because, especially right nowduring this time of year when
you're scrolling, everything isyou know I'm going to date when
we're doing this, which I know Ishould do.
But Black Friday sale 30% offand holiday sale everything is a
sale, everything is selling.
Those are paid ads.
(25:35):
That's a completely differentexperience than you trying to
grow your audience by servingthem with your content.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (25:42):
Yeah, and so your content.
And so let's say, like peoplethat listen to the podcast know
I had an online store, so I usedto have physical clothing
stores, but then I had an onlineclothing store.
I would use Instagram to showthem the clothes and I would use
story, right like today I'mwearing this shirt and this it's
also a filter for that.
Click here.
(26:02):
But when they clicked, theywent to the website.
Yes, that's the whole point.
Right For them to go to thewebsite to shop, to buy.
So, yeah, you maybe advertiseyour sale or you maybe say, like
Black Friday, but now and today, right now, everything is Black
Friday.
I don't know about everybodyelse, but I have tuned those out
(26:24):
.
Yes, there's too many.
It's been going on for threeweeks.
It's Black Friday.
Used to be one day, it's nowlike a month.
Mishelle Thorpe (26:32):
Yes, and they have a Cyber Monday, and then I
think there's something elsenext week that we've just
invented more reasons to selland people get so tired of being
sold to.
There's some statistic I thinkit kind of escapes me now which
is not helpful.
I think it's 86% of people findsomething to buy on Instagram,
(26:56):
but 99% of people self-reporthating feeling sold to oh, 100%.
But they don't want to feelsold to.
They want to come across yourproduct.
Naturally, they want to get toknow you.
Naturally, they want to make aninformed decision without
feeling like you're crammingsomething down their throats
that they didn't want in thefirst place.
They need you.
We know that People, whateverit is that your listeners are
(27:20):
doing, they have a gift.
They're changing the worldthrough their business, through
their services, but we don'twant to cram it down people's
throats.
They got to come to us.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (27:28):
Exactly so in my mind and you tell me you're
the expert if this is right.
But for my clothing store I'dbe a lot more, or it would be
more beneficial for me, if I hadme in a holiday outfit and said
, look at our three holidayoutfits like the glam outfit for
New Year's Eve, the cute outfit, comfy outfit for staying at
home on Christmas Day and theholiday shopping outfit and
(27:53):
talked about those and then wasclick here to get your holiday
discount.
And then it goes to the websiteyes, right, because more people
are going to be interested inthat.
Because it's like oh, I have aneed for that outfit and not
just another, just a blob of 40%off.
Mishelle Thorpe (28:11):
And in that kind of content you are solving
your ideal client's problem.
They didn't know what they weregoing to wear for New Year's,
or what's trendy.
What are we wearing this year?
I don't know.
Last year it was gold sequence.
What are we doing this year?
I don't know.
Well, Mackenzie just showed meand now she's also offering me a
discount what that person feelssupported and taken care of,
not just 40% off.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (28:32):
Exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe (28:33):
I wasn't ready to buy yet anyway.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (28:36):
Yeah, yeah, no.
And if you're the expert, or ifyou're saying I'm the expert in
this thing, they're going tolisten to you, yes, yes.
And if they trust you that, ifyou tell me this is what I
should wear, that's what I'mgoing to wear, I'm going to go
buy it, and that just goes backon the trust that they have in
you, that you've built by havingthem follow you.
Yes, and that's the contentthat builds that.
Mishelle Thorpe (28:59):
Yes, even when our end goal is sales and
there's nothing wrong withsaying that we all have bills to
pay.
We need shelter, we need food,we need utilities, all that
stuff there's no shame inadmitting that we have to sell
in order to survive.
That's fine.
But we're not showing up onsocial media that way.
(29:19):
We're showing up on socialmedia to serve our audience.
The rule of thumb that I wouldtell my clients is 90% of your
content needs to be serving insome way either a tip, a hack,
an outfit idea, a call to actionto download your freebie, some
kind of free content that eitheryou're giving them in the
(29:41):
context of that post orreferring them to go and get it.
However, whatever that lookslike, only 10% can be a flat out
sale.
Talking about an exchange ofmoney, I have this coaching
package.
It's $4.95.
Go to my website to get it.
Something like that Only 10% ofyour content should be direct
(30:05):
sales.
Now, we're not talking apodcast episodes.
Those are free.
Things that are free don'tcount in that 10%.
But when you're looking at overthe course of a month, if
you're only posting three timesa week, that's about one post a
month that you're talking aboutsomething actually for sale.
Go purchase this thing.
(30:26):
Give me your credit card.
Everything else needs to beserving.
We have to be delivering valuefor our audience until they
trust us enough to give us theircredit cards.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (30:36):
Exactly, and if you don't provide them value,
they're not following you,they're not buying from you.
Simple as that.
Mishelle Thorpe (30:42):
Nope, there's too much competition.
There are too many folks outthere doing something similar,
where every single person has adifferent business.
Even if you serve the sameperson, even if you're a
lifestyle coach and Jenny's alifestyle coach, you both have
different businesses.
But if you don't bring them inand if you don't serve them and
(31:02):
let them know that you are theone, your style is the way that
they need, they're going to goshop with somebody else.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (31:09):
Yeah, exactly during the tables a little bit
here, just when we're talkingabout posts and videos and
everything else.
I know reels are like.
Reels are kind of it seemed tobe everything now.
But how important is, I guess,a music in your post and should
(31:29):
you have more reels than posts?
Should it be equal?
Is there no rule of thumb?
You do you or what are yourthoughts on?
Mishelle Thorpe (31:37):
That more graphics than anything else,
more graphics than video, moregraphics than photos, and it
goes back to that seven secondrule they're not going to take
the time to watch a video whenthey don't understand the
context and they're not boughtinto you being the expert on
anything.
Yet music, if you feel calledto add that, that's fantastic.
(32:03):
I haven't heard an updatedstatistic about this since the
pandemic, but pre-pandemicquantum shorts change
Pre-pandemic.
60% of people use social mediawith the sound off, so we have
to be aware of that, not onlywith music, but also adding
captions to everything.
(32:23):
Yes, and this is also a need toremember that we've got a huge
community of hard of hearing anddeaf individuals who rely on
that kind of assistance to beable to digest your content.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (32:38):
Yeah, the other option is, if you're not
sure, that part underneath thepicture that talks about what
you're talking about.
Right, it gives moreinformation.
What about hashtags?
Okay, Hashtags is like theywere like the end, they were the
end all BL.
Then people are like just putthree, it's like I don't even
know if there's rules now, butyou need them, right, you do.
Mishelle Thorpe (33:00):
Well, you do need them, and one of the ways
in which Instagram has kind ofdialed back its ability to help
creators get out there isthey've changed the way that
hashtags are used, and thishappened at the beginning of
2023.
I have been hopeful that theywould change it back, because no
(33:20):
one likes it it's not helpinganybody, but it used to be where
.
I mean just a couple ofexamples from myself and clients
that I've worked with and wecould get 10,000 views easily on
a post using hashtags.
Now, lucky if you get 500 or600 from hashtags, because
(33:41):
they've changed it to just tothe only being able to see the
top posts on that hashtag, notrecent.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (33:50):
And again.
Mishelle Thorpe (33:50):
I'm hoping that they change that.
So if someone's listening tothis down the road and they have
changed it, this could be oldnews, but I am still approaching
Instagram as if it was the oldstyle, because it could change
it any moment where 20 to 30 isactually what's best.
There was a study done of 18million posts.
It was done by later, thesocial media planning company.
(34:12):
I love them.
They are in store.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (34:14):
Later is awesome by the way.
Yep, it is great.
Mishelle Thorpe (34:18):
They studied 18 million posts and they were
looking at engagement, followingall you know all of the metrics
, and determined that 20 to 30is actually the hashtag sweet
spot.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (34:28):
Okay, yeah, and I think the same as you like
.
Right now, if hashtags aren'tdoing what we'd like them to do,
that might change.
So make sure you're stillputting them in there, because
if it changes and then they'rethere, you wouldn't know.
Mishelle Thorpe (34:41):
Yeah, exactly.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (34:42):
Because you you're not going to go back and
add them in, right like.
You're better off to put themin and they're there than have
to add them back, right okay.
Algorithms Everybody's like.
The algorithm changed thealgorithms.
People aren't seeing my postsbecause of the algorithm.
Does it really play a part inyour success or hinder your
success on Instagram?
I?
Mishelle Thorpe (35:02):
It can, but you can't control it, so I have
never advised that folks spend awhole lot of time really
thinking about it.
Other than, what can youcontrol that can impact that
algorithm?
Your content, hashtags whenthey were relevant, and still,
to a certain extent, if you findyourself on the top post page,
(35:23):
you amazing that's, that's,that's your goal.
But think about how you canserve your audience instead of
trying to go viral which, by theway, a lot of folks have
reported as a very unpleasantexperience when you, if you're
trying to go viral, you'reprobably not going to.
(35:44):
That's kind of that's a toughtarget.
You don't want to bedisappointed when you could
otherwise be doing amazingthings.
But if you're basing yoursuccess on your ability to go
viral, that's going todisappoint you.
But when you are getting,you're not really.
Your goal shouldn't be to getyour content in front of the
(36:04):
most people possible.
You want your content in frontof of your buyers, of your
target audience, the relevantpeople.
I could care less if teenagersin Indonesia are seeing my
content.
They're not going to hire me.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (36:21):
No, exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe (36:22):
That metric, what?
Okay, so I got a couple moreviews.
That's not worth patting myselfon the back over, but if I'm
getting my content in front ofpeople who do have the problem
that I solve and they hire me,hell yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (36:37):
Yeah, exactly .
So I you kind of just answeredmy next thing that I had in my
mind which was what's moreimportant, the number of
followers or interaction?
But clearly it's theinteraction.
Mishelle Thorpe (36:49):
If I I mean.
The right answer, I think, isneither, because I've had so
many clients hire me.
A ton of clients get on,potential clients get on my
email list.
But a lot of clients pay me whonever engaged, they never left
a comment, they never evenfollowed me before getting on my
email list.
(37:09):
But if it's between followercount and your relationship with
them, definitely yourrelationship with them, 1,000
million, trillion percent.
I this is my business, it'spays me full time.
It is the only income I haveand I have less than 2,000
followers on every platform.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (37:26):
Yeah, and I think that's why, paying
followers right, you won't get abazillion DMs that are like I
probably get ten a day now, thatare like I can get you 30,000
followers.
I'm like, well, big deal,they're fake people, like
they're not people that are evergoing to get anything from me.
So just so I can say I have25,000 followers like who cares?
(37:47):
Right.
Mishelle Thorpe (37:48):
Right If you are putting out really great
content and this goes.
This full circle moment goesback to what we were talking
about at the beginning.
If someone goes to your profileand you have, say, 500
followers, and your page is amishmash of random stuff, they
can't tell who you are, what youdo or if it's even relevant to
them.
They're going to move on.
(38:08):
If they go to your profile,there's 500 followers, but
you've got your ish together.
Your page is branded, it isbeautiful, it is serving, it is
giving them everything they needand telling them that they're
in good hands, working with you.
Done yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (38:23):
Yeah, at the end of the day.
Someone once told me, like ifyou made a lemonade stand and a
thousand people came to thelemonade stand but they just
stood in line and they didn'tbuy anything, or they just
crowded around, or you had 10people come to the lemonade
stand that all bought something,you're better off to have the
(38:43):
10.
Mishelle Thorpe (38:44):
I love that analogy.
I'm going to start using thatall the time.
Use it, use it, go through.
You can picture that experience.
It's so miserable having allthose people standing around
staring at you and you have toworry about how you're going to
pay your electric bill.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (38:59):
Yeah, I know, and it's so funny because just
in I think general, like thehuman brain, you just think, oh,
more people is better.
Well, more buying people arebetter.
More buying people are better,just more people aren't going to
do anything for you.
Exactly, yeah, exactly.
Is there anything else aboutInstagram that's kind of
important or unique?
Mishelle Thorpe (39:21):
I think the number one place where Instagram
differs from every otherplatform is the grid experience,
and if that is the one platformthat you invest more time into,
here's a really great hack.
Folks tell me all the time Ipost the same content on
multiple platforms.
Usually it's I post on Facebookand share it to Instagram.
(39:43):
Do it the other way around.
Do it the other way around.
Create graphics that look goodon your Instagram grid and then
repost that to Facebook,Linkedin, a wherever it is that
you are designed for Instagramfirst.
That is the one platform whereyour design matters the most.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (40:01):
Yeah, because it's aesthetic right.
It's just physically aestheticthe look.
Mishelle Thorpe (40:05):
Yep, yep, all they can see is that grid.
Yeah, they have zero context.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (40:12):
And what about your bio?
I think that kind of goes backto brand, but your bio is really
important.
Mishelle Thorpe (40:18):
Right, it is really important.
It is Now, not everyone's goingto take the time to read it,
but they are going to skim andsee those visuals.
So your visuals are going to benumber one, but you need to
make sure that folks can tell ata glance who you help or what
you do, why and how you do it.
If they can't, if your bio, ifyou're a business and your bio
(40:39):
is about you, you like cupcakes,you have three kids, you live
in Minneapolis that's great, butthat's not important to me as
someone who doesn't know you,who may be looking for a life
coach right, yeah, but if youtalk about what you do with who,
how you do it, why it'simportant, those kinds of things
(41:01):
.
That is relevant to me.
That's what I'm going to gowith.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:05):
Yeah, exactly , and that just goes right back
to your branding.
And then when you see the postsor the photos, videos, whatever
it is that resonates more withyou because you're looking for
the expert in lifestyle coaching, you want that person right and
then you're like, okay, this is, this is why I'm following them
right.
Mishelle Thorpe (41:26):
Absolutely, absolutely.
You have to make yourself inyour business shine, and 150
characters or less it's a tallorder on Instagram.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:33):
It is 150 characters or less.
Mishelle Thorpe (41:34):
It's a tall order, but it's doable.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:36):
Yeah, so should you put emojis in there.
Mishelle Thorpe (41:41):
If they add to the bio experience, as if it's
like this picture of a paw.
If it adds to the experience,if you don't overdo it.
If you're using it to describethat you love tacos and roller
coaster and things like that Isee that kind of stuff all the
time that's a hard no.
But if it adds to your bio, acouple that's fine, that's fine,
(42:03):
awesome.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (42:05):
So you talked about this a little bit, but
just kind of in the grid.
For sure, we know for Instagrambecause it's aesthetically
pleasing.
But is there anything else thatyou should approach differently
with other platforms?
So maybe Instagram versusFacebook.
Mishelle Thorpe (42:23):
Can you say that again?
I'm sorry it got jumbled.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (42:28):
Yeah, technology Just cut us off there
.
So just an approach.
So the approach to Instagram,we know is going to be different
than other platforms, forexample Facebook, because of the
grid experience.
But is there any other way thatit would be different?
I know for sure.
If you're going to post aboutthrough Instagram, then Facebook
, yes, is there anything elsethat you would say?
(42:50):
Or should you not?
Should you be creating like,then?
Obviously, if you're going tohave a TikTok account, you
better be creating something newfor TikTok, or can you use the
same?
Mishelle Thorpe (43:02):
Well, technically, TikTok is not
social media.
TikTok is an entertainmentplatform, kind of like YouTube,
and I am most definitely not aTikTok expert.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (43:12):
So I'm not a TikTok.
I have an account and I don'tthink I've ever actually put
anything on it.
Mishelle Thorpe (43:19):
So I feel like but TikTok, aesthetically though
, looks pretty similar toInstagram, although it is a
different experience because itis short form video and you
don't have the option, like youdo with Instagram, to post
mostly videos, or at least pinvideos to the top of your
profile.
But for I consider Instagram,Facebook and LinkedIn to be the
(43:40):
big three and for the big three,you want to make sure that
you're taking advantage of yourpinned, your posts, your
featured posts, whatever thatplatform calls it.
Make sure that you are puttingyour best content forward and
your best content I'll say itagain when we talked about it a
little bit earlier but it's kindof just, guys, a bust, a myth
(44:00):
that keeps people from workingwith you.
Yes, your freebie.
Tell them why they need it, notjust what it is, and a glowing
testimonial.
Make sure that those three areat the top of your page and that
they are graphics, not videosor photos.
Make sure that they make iteasy for them.
Dummy, proof it.
Put it right out there so that,unless they're not paying
(44:23):
attention, they're going to seeit.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (44:25):
I love that and I love how you say dummy,
proof i t.
.
And I hate to say this, butpeople will take the easiest
shortest way.
So, especially for pinnedthings, they're the first three
things that they see.
You're not going to scrollthrough your feed to find a
testimonial.
No but if it's right in theirface, they're going to read it.
Mishelle Thorpe (44:42):
Yep, yep, and it may cause them to want to
look deeper, but you have to getthem.
You have to get them.
Don't count on them readingcontent.
Don't count on them watchingvideo.
Don't count on them scrollingback to that.
One time you posted that reallywell, really amazing post.
Post it again or put it on topof your page.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (45:00):
Yep, I love that.
Do you have a most importantlesson that you can share that
you've learned along the way?
Mishelle Thorpe (45:07):
I think it would be not specifically
related to social media, but ifyou feel called to go in a
specific direction, especiallyif it's away from the path that
other people tell you you shouldtake, take it.
I know we already talked aboutthis, but we will always ask
ourselves what if and if youwere called to be an
(45:29):
entrepreneur?
I'm sorry, sis, you are notgoing to be happy working for
somebody else.
Just make a plan to exit andretire yourself and do this full
time.
You will not regret it.
It's the hardest I've everworked.
It is so much harder than whatI thought a hard day was in the
corporate office, but I would.
I could never go back to workfor someone else, never.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (45:52):
I would be a horrible employee.
I cannot agree with you more,though, because if it's in you
that fires burning in you, youmight try to put it out.
It's never going out.
It's supposed to be there.
Mishelle Thorpe (46:05):
It's always going to be calling to you and
when you're successful, when youhave proven that you can keep
your bills paid and roof overyour head, your family is going
to be like wow, we told you youwere a fool.
And look at you now and you'regoing to say yes, yes, exactly,
exactly.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (46:24):
And is there anything you wish you had known?
And maybe that's it, maybe youwish you had known that earlier,
but or anything else that youcould tell your younger self, or
something like oh, I wish Iwould have known that one.
I started.
Mishelle Thorpe (46:35):
Stop shooting all over yourself the things
that you should do.
If that's not what you want todo, if you don't feel like that
is your path.
This is our one life.
This is our one chance.
So what if you make a mistake?
So what if you fall down?
What if you fly?
Mackenzie Kilshaw (46:53):
Exactly.
And guess what, if you falldown, you just get back up
exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe (46:58):
Exactly, and it's just you just learn I've
fallen down.
We could talk for hours abouttimes that I have fallen down,
but I get back up every singletime and I'm still here.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (47:09):
Exactly and typically the people, your
audience, customers, whatever itis, they don't even know you
fell no exactly, it's typicallybehind the scenes and they don't
even know it.
So brush yourself off, get backup and get out there, right?
Mishelle Thorpe (47:23):
Exactly, people are paying far less attention
to you than you think.
Remember, it's not even socialmedia anymore to selfish media.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (47:31):
That's true.
It's so true.
I love that advice.
M, where can people find you?
I know they're going to want tolearn more.
Where's the best place for themto seek you out?
Mishelle Thorpe (47:39):
Instagram is my platform of choice as a graphic
designer.
That is where I feel called tobe, and you can find me at
thorpe.
Spell my name weird, it'sM-I-S-H-E-L-L-E.
Just type that in and I'mprobably the first one that pops
up.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (47:54):
And we will have your name obviously in the
show notes and everything elseso people can find you.
Literally go and look at sInstagram, who shocked that.
You said Instagram to find youright.
I think that's a fantastic wayto end this episode about
Instagram and strategy andwhatnot.
So thank you so much for beingon.
I learned a few things and Ilove it when I even learn, so I
(48:17):
know our audience is going tolearn a lot.
Yay, my joy, you're done.
It is awesome.
Thank you so much and foreverybody listening.
We'll see you on the nextepisode.
Thanks for listening to Winning.
Be sure to subscribe to get allof our new episodes.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media and leave a rating andreview wherever you listen to
(48:40):
Winning.
To catch all of the latestfrom us, you can follow Winning
Podcast on Instagram at uunderscore podcast, Facebook
facebook at Winning Podcastpodcast and on Twitter at
Winning pod.
Winning was created and isproduced by me, Mackenzie
mackenzie Kilshaw.
Kilschath Music, created byFirby Furby, editing by Seth
(49:00):
Armstrong.
Special thanks to Shauna Fosterfor voicing our opening and, of
course, a huge thank you tothis episode's guests.
Thanks again for listening andI'll see you on the next episode
.
Winning is your guide to making it in business.
Join our award-winning host andentrepreneur, Mackenzie Kilshaw
, and special guests in casualconversations that will educate
and inspire you on your businessjourney.
Winning will help you learn thehard lessons the easy way, with
guidance from celebratedentrepreneurs and business
(00:26):
leaders.
It's fun, it's informative,it's Winning Hello.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (00:31):
I am your host, mackenzie Killshaw, and
today's guest is Michelle Thorpe.
Mishelle Thorpe (00:34):
How are you?
I am doing amazing.
Thank you for having me awesome.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (00:39):
Thanks for being on.
So if you are tuning in and youdon't know about and what she
does, she's a graphic designerwho's built two successful
online coaching business.
Over 90% of her paying clientscome from social media, which is
huge.
We're going to talk a lot aboutsocial media.
She is founder of the ElectricCompany and she creates graphics
and promotional materials forservice-providing women and
(01:01):
nonprofits.
She's an international speakerand she's helped hundreds of
women change their world throughtheir businesses.
So obviously I love women inbusiness.
I love social media.
We're going to get right intothat.
So thank you so much for beingon.
Oh, you're welcome.
It's my pleasure.
It's awesome.
So I gave a little bio aboutyou, but why don't you just
really tell the listeners whoyou are and really what is it
(01:24):
that you do?
Mishelle Thorpe (01:25):
I started my first business when I was eight
years old.
That was back in the 80s.
I knew that entrepreneurshipwas in my blood.
I knew that that's what Iwanted to do.
My first business completelytanked.
I was going to write horoscopesair quotes, for those who are
listening, I am not gifted inthat area, but that didn't stop
(01:46):
me.
I was going to do my thing.
Back then we advertised in thenickel ads.
It was this little publicationthat you paid five cents for and
you could buy an RV or adopt akitten or hire M to write your
horoscope.
Nobody did that, but thatdidn't matter.
I was still so jazzed aboutbeing my own boss.
(02:06):
But somehow I just kind of fellout of that as I followed the
path that I felt like I shouldbe following.
I went to school.
Nothing wrong with getting yourdegree, I'm not saying that.
I went to school.
I pursued the career that myparents wanted me to pursue.
I found myself sitting at adesk at my quote unquote perfect
(02:28):
corporate job.
Realizing that I was justcompletely miserable, I cried.
I pulled my face off at my desk.
People were like what's wrongwith that girl?
I was realizing that I wasmiserable and I didn't know
really how I got there and Ididn't know how to get out.
That was right around the timethat I had an opportunity to
start a coaching business forthe first time.
(02:50):
This was 2017 and we were nolonger advertising in the Nickel
ads Everything was online.
I can write a Nickel ad.
Sign me up for that.
Everyone said, , Instagram iswhere it's at.
You have to be on Instagram.
This is where you're going togrow your business.
I said all right, I'm in, I'mall in.
(03:11):
I didn't have an Instagramaccount.
I know it was 2017 andeverybody was already on
Instagram, but I wasn't.
My bunny was.
I had an account for my bunnyand he was really super cute,
but I decided he has I don'tknow like 500 followers.
That has to be a gold mine,right?
500 people, I'm going to berich tomorrow.
(03:34):
Let's just take over hisaccount, change the username and
post one day about him and thenthe next day post about hey,
I'm a coach now who wants tohire me?
Yeah, I sat back and I waitedfor the credit cards to go in
nothing happened.
Nothing happened.
Surprise, everyone always knowsthat that's coming.
(03:54):
Nothing happened.
I thought, wow, this is goingto sell itself.
500 people, this is ano-brainer.
But I realized really quicklythat nothing sells itself.
No matter how excited you areabout your business, no one else
is going to be as excited aboutit as you are.
So I had to figure it out orjust go back to that miserable
(04:15):
corporate life.
Clearly, I'm here.
So I figured it out.
I'm able to retire fromcorporate life in 2020.
I'm sure we'll dig into that alittle bit as well, but I
realized that there was a wayfor you to sell on social media
and there was a way for you notto.
I was mastering the how to not,and I had to master how to do
(04:38):
it.
Here we are three, four yearslater.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (04:43):
And it really is.
I don't know if you call it ascience or an art or what, but
it's not just like throw a postup there and you're going to get
followers or sales or whateverit is.
Mishelle Thorpe (04:52):
Absolutely not, and people are still making
that mistake to this moment.
People are doing that right now.
They're hitting post, they'reposting and praying, and that is
not a strategy.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (05:02):
I know I hear so many people say well, I post
every day and I'm not gettinganything.
But I'm posting every day.
That's what you're supposed todo.
I'm like well, not necessarilyright.
There's a lot of other factors.
Mishelle Thorpe (05:15):
There's a lot of factors that go into it.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (05:17):
Yeah, we're going to get really into that.
I just want to kind of go backa little bit.
When you said you were eightyears old, you started your
first business and then, ofcourse, you did what kind of
society tells you to go toschool, get the job.
I feel like that's very muchlike how I was too.
I did high school jobs, but Ididn't even realize
entrepreneurship was a thing,and I'm guessing that's kind of
(05:39):
the same for you.
Mishelle Thorpe (05:40):
Yeah, I mean, even up until the time that I
decided that I was going tobecome a full-time entrepreneur
and I shared that with thoseclosest to me it was, oh, that's
scary.
How can you have not aguaranteed paycheck, you don't
have health insurance?
I mean, I think that's justwhere taught, where I don't know
(06:01):
why, I don't know, but thatworking for somebody else is the
only way to go, or risk beinghomeless, and that is absolutely
1,000% not the case.
It's hard.
We could go off about how Ithink there needs to be a lot
more support for entrepreneurialfolks out there, but that's
(06:23):
another time and place.
But no, that is not the onlypath forward, and that's one
thing I preach all the time.
If this is the path that youknow you want to take, take it.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (06:34):
Yeah, I agree , and the thing is I always tell
people to if you never takethat chance, you never know.
And if you take the what?
If that's right, and if youtake that chance and for you it
was taking over your pets pageand being like, okay, now it's
gonna work.
And it didn't work.
You pivoted to how it worked.
You learned, you did make somechanges whatever we're gonna
(06:57):
talk about that but you made itwork, even though at first maybe
that was a failurequote-unquote I like to say
learning experience but maybedidn't work out at first, but
guess what?
Now it really is working out.
Yeah, it will right if you havea good idea, yeah, and you do
the things that you need to do,not just what you think you need
(07:18):
to do, because what you thinkyou're doing social media,
probably is it what's gonna getyou there, right?
Yeah, yeah, we're gonna getreally into it.
Um, okay, but tell us a littlebit more about your coaching and
your expertise.
How did you maybe, like, howdid you get to know all of the
stuff about social media?
Mishelle Thorpe (07:38):
It was kind of around the the time that I
started posting on my bunny'spage and realizing that that
wasn't going to work.
I started, I was a sponge.
I started absorbing all theinformation that I possibly
could from every source,everyone who had made it,
everyone who was more successfulThan I was.
I wanted to know how often?
If social media is, where isthat?
(08:00):
How often should you be posting?
What kind of content should Ibe posting?
Where should I be posting?
I wanted to know all of it.
But I also needed kind ofentrepreneurial one-on-one.
I mean, I was working in thecorporate space, so how am I
supposed to pivot from thismassive company with a
department for everything to mebeing the only person?
(08:21):
So I needed to soak up all ofthat.
And where my pivot point reallywas is I didn't resonate with a
lot of the teachings that were,that were popular back then
about posting it.
You had mentioned it beforeposting every single day, well,
if I'm wearing every hat in mycompany, I kind of don't have
time for that and I'm not yet ata point where I want to hire
(08:42):
someone to do that.
And if you never want to dothat, well, it's just.
You realize there's just thespiral of how am I supposed to
get it all done.
Yes and I felt like I couldn'tdo that successfully without
compromising my personal life.
So I did some trial and error.
I pulled in this piece and thatdidn't work, like the posting
(09:02):
every single day.
Well, what about three times aday?
And what if I really gotspecific with my hashtags?
And what if I really focused onInstagram first and the other
second, third, etc.
Yeah, that is really where Ifound my success and that's
where I started teaching otherwomen how to emulate what I had
done.
Then they had success, and thenothers had success and it just
(09:24):
kind of blossomed from there.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (09:25):
Yeah, that's awesome when you, when you
changed from your bunny page toyour page.
I don't even have this in mynotes, but I want to talk about
branding your brand, like howimportant was that?
Because your page before thatwas about your pet right and
(09:45):
clearly you need to now make itabout how you're a coach and how
you can help other people.
So how important was that brandfor you to get going?
I didn't have branding.
Mishelle Thorpe (09:55):
In the beginning, I didn't understand
the importance of branding andthat now is something that I
really, really stress.
Helping other women with whoare getting started on social
media, branding is absolutelykey, but I was stuck back in
that, oh well, if they want thisresult, they're gonna hire me.
My coaching sells itself andI've said it already, I'll say
(10:16):
it again You're coaching.
Your service providing does notsell itself.
You do need to have a brand.
You need to.
You need to have we're gettinginto the specifics now but you
need to have colors and fontsthat emulates who your business
is, who your target audience is.
You need to have a consistentlook.
(10:37):
Your Social media profilescannot be a collection of random
images or memes that you foundfunny or things that other folks
have created.
They're hiring you.
They want to see you.
They want to see your brand,not someone's page who could be
a business but could be just arandom person sharing funny
(11:00):
things.
Branding is 1000% key.
The lesson I didn't know in thebeginning yeah, I don't think
many people do know aboutbranding honestly, because I'm
kind of the same as you.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (11:06):
I get lots of messages and questions and I go
and I'll go look at a page andI'm not a social media expert,
but I'll just look at somebody'sInstagram page and they're like
tell me what you think.
And I'm like who are you?
Like there's every, there's notheme, there's no, everything is
random.
(11:27):
They don't have a logo or thepicture isn't even of the logo,
it's some random picture.
They like like I I can't eventell by looking at that who you
are as a business, what youstand for, what's important to
you, and Then I'm just lost,right.
(11:48):
So why do I want to follow thatperson or engage in their
content when I don't even likeget it?
Mishelle Thorpe (11:53):
Absolutely, and one misstep and one way.
I think that everyone inbusiness not just entrepreneurs,
but every business owner whythey make these mistakes is they
look at who they look up to onsocial media, usually those that
have a huge following we'retalking like Beyonce or Taylor
(12:14):
Swift level accounts.
Taylor Swift and Beyonce canshow up differently on social
media than anyone else can.
They already have that cloud,they already have that respect.
Together they could put up anypiece of crap and their
followers would be like it'strue, I'll do it, I'll do it,
(12:36):
I'll do it.
We are not of that caliber yet.
I mean, I will never be TaylorSwift.
Let's just be real.
But when you're just startingout, you have to realize that
people don't know you, peopledon't trust you and without
having your ish togethervisually and behind the scenes
(12:57):
when you're delivering thoseservices, no one is going to
trust hiring you.
It's completely different thanthose accounts that you're
looking up to.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (13:07):
Yeah, exactly , and that's why the well I post
every day and I'm not gettingany traction.
That's why, because if you'reposting, if it's your business
page, and you're posting at-shirt and then a cat, and then
your lunch, and then yourfavorite song, and what it
doesn't, people don't care.
I hate to say that, but theydon't care.
Shauna Foster (13:28):
People don't care .
Mishelle Thorpe (13:29):
It is really it's no longer social media.
I've started calling it selfishmedia, because people aren't
really that interested ingetting to know you that deep,
Maybe if they become a huge fanof yours.
But at least initially you haveto hook them with your branding
, with something free that youoffer.
(13:49):
Help them get to know youbefore you show them what you
have for lunch.
That's a personal profile.
You cannot expect businessresults from a personal profile.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (14:00):
Exactly, and I think the thing too is, if
you're doing like a lunch andFridays thing, maybe that goes
on your story where it's aslittle 30 second thing that
you're like every Friday I meetsomebody for lunch, we talk
business and here's where we areand that's it.
It's not a post, it's not areal right, exactly, exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe (14:23):
You're so right .
You don't need me here.
You already know what to do onInstagram.
Anything that is personal innature, is not branded, is maybe
something you found thatsomeone else did that you don't
want to take the time torecreate.
Anything that really is not abillboard for your business
belongs in your stories.
Write that one down.
You don't need to because youalready know.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (14:46):
You know what , though?
I learned it and I'll becompletely honest with you.
As silly as this is, a fewnights ago, I went through my
personal Instagram and I wasscrolling.
I think I was looking for aphoto of something that I knew
happened like six years ago.
So I was just like I'm sureit's on Instagram scrolling
through and I was with my niece,who's in early 20s, and I said,
(15:07):
oh my God, Instagram used to belike Snapchat for us, like I
had pictures on there literallyof my lunch, or like girls night
out, and like a wine glass, andI archived a whole bunch of
photos.
Oh, I know because I was like nonow that's something that you'd
Snapchat to your friend but youdon't post on your Instagram
(15:29):
page.
Oh, and I was like things havechanged.
But if and that's my ownpersonal page, that's not my
like podcast page or anythingbut if somebody went to look at
me and they scroll back, theythink this is weird, right.
So important to look back atwhat you've got on there.
Maybe you're not just startingout, but maybe you look back and
think, okay, this doesn't likefit the times now or my brand
(15:52):
now I've got to get rid of itand just archive it.
Mishelle Thorpe (15:55):
One of the first things that I would go
through when I offered a lot ofone on one coaching was going
through and archiving all thatstuff that does not serve your
brand.
Now, one of the rules of thumbthat really applies to any
platform, but especiallyInstagram, because Instagram is
so visual where the others arekind of combination platforms of
visual and your caption, yourtext, anything like that but
(16:19):
especially with Instagram, is ifyou want to put it on a
billboard and be proud drivingby that on the highway, you
don't want to have it on yoursocial media, especially on
Instagram, and I love that.
I wanted to take a few secondsfor those who don't really grasp
, which is most people.
Don't feel bad if this is yougrasp the difference, why
(16:43):
Instagram is so different fromthe others.
When you go to a businessFacebook page or someone's
business on LinkedIn and you'relooking at their profile, it's
really similar.
It's well more so on Facebook,but it's really similar to that
scrolling feed.
Look, you see what they'veposted.
You see, if they've posted avideo, the description of that
(17:06):
video.
If they've posted a graphic,you can see the caption.
You can really see it all.
But when someone stumblesacross one of your Instagram
posts, they go to your profile.
It's not like that.
It's the grip.
It's those boxes and only theboxes.
So the visuals that you haveposted today back through all of
(17:31):
time.
They have to speak forthemselves and they have to
really captivate that personinto tapping to learn more.
You've only got seven secondsbefore they're on to the next,
so that's why that's where Icome in as a graphic designer.
You have to be so intentionalaround the graphics that you're
posting that you're adding videocovers when they call them
(17:55):
covers on Instagram, it'sthumbnails and other verbiage on
the other platform but that youare in control of how you are
represented on your social mediaprofiles, so that folks aren't
getting the wrong idea or worksnot getting any idea at all and
bouncing over to someone else'sprofile when you've lost them
forever.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (18:14):
Yeah, exactly , because then they're gone.
Mishelle Thorpe (18:16):
Yes.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (18:16):
They're not gonna come back.
No, exactly, okay, we're kindof talking about it, but let's
talk about strategy.
Do you need a strategy forInstagram?
I think we all know the answeryes.
I think.
If you're gonna say no, webetter just listen to this
podcast 20 times over,absolutely.
And what do you need in yourstrategy?
Mishelle Thorpe (18:38):
You really need to be.
Instead of thinking about what'sgoing to look good in a feed or
what fun video can you recreatethat you've seen, you need to
be planning for what your gridis going to look like.
Feed is today, grid is forever,so you need to be intentional
about making sure that yourideal client can see who you are
(19:03):
, that any objections that youcommonly hear about working with
you, that you're able to bustthose through the use of your
graphics.
You have to show them somethingthat's free, that you offer.
Ideally, on a social mediasituation, we're talking about a
free download instead of a freecall, a free course, something
like that, something that theycan digest really quickly if it
(19:26):
gets them on your email list.
And here's one that is so oftenoverlooked a glowing
testimonial, not a bigtestimonial, not where you've
painstakingly written a captionand it took you two hours to get
it right.
They're not going to take thetime to read the caption until
they're compelled to learn more.
Put the highlights on a graphicand then take it a step further
(19:49):
and pin that to the top of yourprofile, so you're all but
ensuring that your ideal clientis going to see that before they
move on.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (19:57):
Yeah, I love that and do you advise people to
use?
I mean, I know you want tocatch someone, you want to catch
their attention, but in theactual post should they be using
just the kind of thecatchphrase I'll say or the
thing that I don't want to say,beat, that's uncerebral, but the
(20:18):
thing that gets their attention, and then more in the caption,
or should they be putting morein the post?
Mishelle Thorpe (20:24):
It's a combination of both we don't
want to be using.
We don't want to oversensationalize.
People are so attuned to what'sclick bait now and they won't
click on it, even if they'reinterested, because they don't
want to be the sucker thatclicked on it.
So we want to be very, veryintentional about how we're
wording it.
If we're sharing tips aboutthis thing, we want to say five
(20:45):
tips to this thing and then getinto it in the caption.
There is still value in knowinghow to write a great caption.
Even with the invention of AIand things like that.
There is still value in thecaption.
But first and foremost, youhave to catch them with whatever
visual it is, or they're nevergoing to read the caption.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (21:05):
That's right.
Yeah, exactly.
So it's kind of a balance and Ithink that is trial and error.
Is that how you find that outfor your audience?
Mishelle Thorpe (21:13):
Yes, it definitely can be, especially
Instagram, and I say Instagrambecause that is my platform of
choice.
But Instagram especially givesyou so many valuable insights,
so you know what kind of contentyour audience is really
interested in.
That said, insights aren'teverything.
Engagement isn't everything.
(21:35):
I have had clients hire me whonever engaged with any of my
content.
I've had clients hire mewithout even following me and
they found me on Instagram and Iknow because of how tags work
and things like that.
But it's really interesting howso many folks put all their
eggs in the engagement basketand they think, well, I'm
(21:56):
getting a lot of likes on myvideos, so I just need to keep
posting videos.
Well, are those people buyingfrom you?
Are they getting on yourmailing list at least?
Are you converting them intoleads for your programs?
If the answer is no, and whoseliking is your mom and your aunt
and your cousin?
They're not your client.
You're audio quiet.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (22:14):
Yeah, exactly .
Mishelle Thorpe (22:14):
So stop catering for those people.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (22:17):
Yeah, and I just heard you talk about
conversion and in my day jobI'll say I talk about or think
about and look at conversion allthe time.
Do you want to just explain?
Because I think for a lot ofpeople, when they're just
starting out and they're OK,I've got to build my Instagram
and everything what exactlywould that conversion be?
Because I think a lot of peoplehear it it's like a buzzword,
(22:38):
but they're not exactly sure andno one wants to ask, right,
because then you're the personthat didn't know what that meant
.
Mishelle Thorpe (22:44):
Exactly, exactly.
And even those that do knowwhat it means.
For when I used to just doInstagram strategy, when that
was kind of my bread and butter,folks would say, oh well, you
sell on Instagram, so you don'thave an email list or things
like that.
And no, having a social mediapresence doesn't mean that
(23:04):
you're selling on social media.
Eventually they'll buy from youand that sale came from social
media or they would never havefound you in the first place.
But what I consider success andwhat I teach my clients, the
kind of conversion you'relooking for on social media, is
converting on to your email list, having them request your lead
(23:26):
magnet, fill out that form andhave you be able to deepen that
relationship with them via email.
Not necessarily and I was goingto say not necessarily, but
absolutely not that you'reposting every single day about I
have this service, it's 50% off, or you can work with me for
$495, or things like that.
(23:47):
No, social media is not whereyou're selling.
It's where you're serving.
And, yes, those conversionswill bolster your business
because you're able to reallyget to know them better and have
them get to know you better.
But social media is not aselling platform in and of
(24:08):
itself.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (24:09):
Right, so really, social media is where
you put the content.
So maybe it's a strategy towhatever, whatever, whatever,
depending on what the person'sdoing.
But then it's going to yourwebsite to get on the email list
to get the free download thatyou're going to help them, and
(24:32):
then probably you should beupselling them on your website
to your paid thing or yourone-on-one coaching or whatever
it is.
Mishelle Thorpe (24:41):
Yes, absolutely absolutely.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (24:43):
People forget this all the time.
They think they only needInstagram and Facebook, but it's
just your stepping stone to getthem to your website email list
.
It's just a mastermind tool.
It cannot exist.
Mishelle Thorpe (24:58):
In a vacuum, you cannot expect a business
success.
It's the only thing you'redoing is posting on social media
100% OK.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (25:06):
Thank you for saying that, because it's
people just think that that likeoh, I have an Instagram shop,
so that's all I need.
Mishelle Thorpe (25:14):
And I think we get a false sense of what it
means to be successful inselling as well.
Because, especially right nowduring this time of year when
you're scrolling, everything isyou know I'm going to date when
we're doing this, which I know Ishould do.
But Black Friday sale 30% offand holiday sale everything is a
sale, everything is selling.
Those are paid ads.
(25:35):
That's a completely differentexperience than you trying to
grow your audience by servingthem with your content.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (25:42):
Yeah, and so your content.
And so let's say, like peoplethat listen to the podcast know
I had an online store, so I usedto have physical clothing
stores, but then I had an onlineclothing store.
I would use Instagram to showthem the clothes and I would use
story, right like today I'mwearing this shirt and this it's
also a filter for that.
Click here.
(26:02):
But when they clicked, theywent to the website.
Yes, that's the whole point.
Right For them to go to thewebsite to shop, to buy.
So, yeah, you maybe advertiseyour sale or you maybe say, like
Black Friday, but now and today, right now, everything is Black
Friday.
I don't know about everybodyelse, but I have tuned those out
(26:24):
.
Yes, there's too many.
It's been going on for threeweeks.
It's Black Friday.
Used to be one day, it's nowlike a month.
Mishelle Thorpe (26:32):
Yes, and they have a Cyber Monday, and then I
think there's something elsenext week that we've just
invented more reasons to selland people get so tired of being
sold to.
There's some statistic I thinkit kind of escapes me now which
is not helpful.
I think it's 86% of people findsomething to buy on Instagram,
(26:56):
but 99% of people self-reporthating feeling sold to oh, 100%.
But they don't want to feelsold to.
They want to come across yourproduct.
Naturally, they want to get toknow you.
Naturally, they want to make aninformed decision without
feeling like you're crammingsomething down their throats
that they didn't want in thefirst place.
They need you.
We know that People, whateverit is that your listeners are
(27:20):
doing, they have a gift.
They're changing the worldthrough their business, through
their services, but we don'twant to cram it down people's
throats.
They got to come to us.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (27:28):
Exactly so in my mind and you tell me you're
the expert if this is right.
But for my clothing store I'dbe a lot more, or it would be
more beneficial for me, if I hadme in a holiday outfit and said
, look at our three holidayoutfits like the glam outfit for
New Year's Eve, the cute outfit, comfy outfit for staying at
home on Christmas Day and theholiday shopping outfit and
(27:53):
talked about those and then wasclick here to get your holiday
discount.
And then it goes to the websiteyes, right, because more people
are going to be interested inthat.
Because it's like oh, I have aneed for that outfit and not
just another, just a blob of 40%off.
Mishelle Thorpe (28:11):
And in that kind of content you are solving
your ideal client's problem.
They didn't know what they weregoing to wear for New Year's,
or what's trendy.
What are we wearing this year?
I don't know.
Last year it was gold sequence.
What are we doing this year?
I don't know.
Well, Mackenzie just showed meand now she's also offering me a
discount what that person feelssupported and taken care of,
not just 40% off.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (28:32):
Exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe (28:33):
I wasn't ready to buy yet anyway.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (28:36):
Yeah, yeah, no.
And if you're the expert, or ifyou're saying I'm the expert in
this thing, they're going tolisten to you, yes, yes.
And if they trust you that, ifyou tell me this is what I
should wear, that's what I'mgoing to wear, I'm going to go
buy it, and that just goes backon the trust that they have in
you, that you've built by havingthem follow you.
Yes, and that's the contentthat builds that.
Mishelle Thorpe (28:59):
Yes, even when our end goal is sales and
there's nothing wrong withsaying that we all have bills to
pay.
We need shelter, we need food,we need utilities, all that
stuff there's no shame inadmitting that we have to sell
in order to survive.
That's fine.
But we're not showing up onsocial media that way.
(29:19):
We're showing up on socialmedia to serve our audience.
The rule of thumb that I wouldtell my clients is 90% of your
content needs to be serving insome way either a tip, a hack,
an outfit idea, a call to actionto download your freebie, some
kind of free content that eitheryou're giving them in the
(29:41):
context of that post orreferring them to go and get it.
However, whatever that lookslike, only 10% can be a flat out
sale.
Talking about an exchange ofmoney, I have this coaching
package.
It's $4.95.
Go to my website to get it.
Something like that Only 10% ofyour content should be direct
(30:05):
sales.
Now, we're not talking apodcast episodes.
Those are free.
Things that are free don'tcount in that 10%.
But when you're looking at overthe course of a month, if
you're only posting three timesa week, that's about one post a
month that you're talking aboutsomething actually for sale.
Go purchase this thing.
(30:26):
Give me your credit card.
Everything else needs to beserving.
We have to be delivering valuefor our audience until they
trust us enough to give us theircredit cards.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (30:36):
Exactly, and if you don't provide them value,
they're not following you,they're not buying from you.
Simple as that.
Mishelle Thorpe (30:42):
Nope, there's too much competition.
There are too many folks outthere doing something similar,
where every single person has adifferent business.
Even if you serve the sameperson, even if you're a
lifestyle coach and Jenny's alifestyle coach, you both have
different businesses.
But if you don't bring them inand if you don't serve them and
(31:02):
let them know that you are theone, your style is the way that
they need, they're going to goshop with somebody else.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (31:09):
Yeah, exactly during the tables a little bit
here, just when we're talkingabout posts and videos and
everything else.
I know reels are like.
Reels are kind of it seemed tobe everything now.
But how important is, I guess,a music in your post and should
(31:29):
you have more reels than posts?
Should it be equal?
Is there no rule of thumb?
You do you or what are yourthoughts on?
Mishelle Thorpe (31:37):
That more graphics than anything else,
more graphics than video, moregraphics than photos, and it
goes back to that seven secondrule they're not going to take
the time to watch a video whenthey don't understand the
context and they're not boughtinto you being the expert on
anything.
Yet music, if you feel calledto add that, that's fantastic.
(32:03):
I haven't heard an updatedstatistic about this since the
pandemic, but pre-pandemicquantum shorts change
Pre-pandemic.
60% of people use social mediawith the sound off, so we have
to be aware of that, not onlywith music, but also adding
captions to everything.
(32:23):
Yes, and this is also a need toremember that we've got a huge
community of hard of hearing anddeaf individuals who rely on
that kind of assistance to beable to digest your content.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (32:38):
Yeah, the other option is, if you're not
sure, that part underneath thepicture that talks about what
you're talking about.
Right, it gives moreinformation.
What about hashtags?
Okay, Hashtags is like theywere like the end, they were the
end all BL.
Then people are like just putthree, it's like I don't even
know if there's rules now, butyou need them, right, you do.
Mishelle Thorpe (33:00):
Well, you do need them, and one of the ways
in which Instagram has kind ofdialed back its ability to help
creators get out there isthey've changed the way that
hashtags are used, and thishappened at the beginning of
2023.
I have been hopeful that theywould change it back, because no
(33:20):
one likes it it's not helpinganybody, but it used to be where
.
I mean just a couple ofexamples from myself and clients
that I've worked with and wecould get 10,000 views easily on
a post using hashtags.
Now, lucky if you get 500 or600 from hashtags, because
(33:41):
they've changed it to just tothe only being able to see the
top posts on that hashtag, notrecent.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (33:50):
And again.
Mishelle Thorpe (33:50):
I'm hoping that they change that.
So if someone's listening tothis down the road and they have
changed it, this could be oldnews, but I am still approaching
Instagram as if it was the oldstyle, because it could change
it any moment where 20 to 30 isactually what's best.
There was a study done of 18million posts.
It was done by later, thesocial media planning company.
(34:12):
I love them.
They are in store.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (34:14):
Later is awesome by the way.
Yep, it is great.
Mishelle Thorpe (34:18):
They studied 18 million posts and they were
looking at engagement, followingall you know all of the metrics
, and determined that 20 to 30is actually the hashtag sweet
spot.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (34:28):
Okay, yeah, and I think the same as you like
.
Right now, if hashtags aren'tdoing what we'd like them to do,
that might change.
So make sure you're stillputting them in there, because
if it changes and then they'rethere, you wouldn't know.
Mishelle Thorpe (34:41):
Yeah, exactly.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (34:42):
Because you you're not going to go back and
add them in, right like.
You're better off to put themin and they're there than have
to add them back, right okay.
Algorithms Everybody's like.
The algorithm changed thealgorithms.
People aren't seeing my postsbecause of the algorithm.
Does it really play a part inyour success or hinder your
success on Instagram?
I?
Mishelle Thorpe (35:02):
It can, but you can't control it, so I have
never advised that folks spend awhole lot of time really
thinking about it.
Other than, what can youcontrol that can impact that
algorithm?
Your content, hashtags whenthey were relevant, and still,
to a certain extent, if you findyourself on the top post page,
(35:23):
you amazing that's, that's,that's your goal.
But think about how you canserve your audience instead of
trying to go viral which, by theway, a lot of folks have
reported as a very unpleasantexperience when you, if you're
trying to go viral, you'reprobably not going to.
(35:44):
That's kind of that's a toughtarget.
You don't want to bedisappointed when you could
otherwise be doing amazingthings.
But if you're basing yoursuccess on your ability to go
viral, that's going todisappoint you.
But when you are getting,you're not really.
Your goal shouldn't be to getyour content in front of the
(36:04):
most people possible.
You want your content in frontof of your buyers, of your
target audience, the relevantpeople.
I could care less if teenagersin Indonesia are seeing my
content.
They're not going to hire me.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (36:21):
No, exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe (36:22):
That metric, what?
Okay, so I got a couple moreviews.
That's not worth patting myselfon the back over, but if I'm
getting my content in front ofpeople who do have the problem
that I solve and they hire me,hell yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (36:37):
Yeah, exactly .
So I you kind of just answeredmy next thing that I had in my
mind which was what's moreimportant, the number of
followers or interaction?
But clearly it's theinteraction.
Mishelle Thorpe (36:49):
If I I mean.
The right answer, I think, isneither, because I've had so
many clients hire me.
A ton of clients get on,potential clients get on my
email list.
But a lot of clients pay me whonever engaged, they never left
a comment, they never evenfollowed me before getting on my
email list.
(37:09):
But if it's between followercount and your relationship with
them, definitely yourrelationship with them, 1,000
million, trillion percent.
I this is my business, it'spays me full time.
It is the only income I haveand I have less than 2,000
followers on every platform.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (37:26):
Yeah, and I think that's why, paying
followers right, you won't get abazillion DMs that are like I
probably get ten a day now, thatare like I can get you 30,000
followers.
I'm like, well, big deal,they're fake people, like
they're not people that are evergoing to get anything from me.
So just so I can say I have25,000 followers like who cares?
(37:47):
Right.
Mishelle Thorpe (37:48):
Right If you are putting out really great
content and this goes.
This full circle moment goesback to what we were talking
about at the beginning.
If someone goes to your profileand you have, say, 500
followers, and your page is amishmash of random stuff, they
can't tell who you are, what youdo or if it's even relevant to
them.
They're going to move on.
(38:08):
If they go to your profile,there's 500 followers, but
you've got your ish together.
Your page is branded, it isbeautiful, it is serving, it is
giving them everything they needand telling them that they're
in good hands, working with you.
Done yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (38:23):
Yeah, at the end of the day.
Someone once told me, like ifyou made a lemonade stand and a
thousand people came to thelemonade stand but they just
stood in line and they didn'tbuy anything, or they just
crowded around, or you had 10people come to the lemonade
stand that all bought something,you're better off to have the
(38:43):
10.
Mishelle Thorpe (38:44):
I love that analogy.
I'm going to start using thatall the time.
Use it, use it, go through.
You can picture that experience.
It's so miserable having allthose people standing around
staring at you and you have toworry about how you're going to
pay your electric bill.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (38:59):
Yeah, I know, and it's so funny because just
in I think general, like thehuman brain, you just think, oh,
more people is better.
Well, more buying people arebetter.
More buying people are better,just more people aren't going to
do anything for you.
Exactly, yeah, exactly.
Is there anything else aboutInstagram that's kind of
important or unique?
Mishelle Thorpe (39:21):
I think the number one place where Instagram
differs from every otherplatform is the grid experience,
and if that is the one platformthat you invest more time into,
here's a really great hack.
Folks tell me all the time Ipost the same content on
multiple platforms.
Usually it's I post on Facebookand share it to Instagram.
(39:43):
Do it the other way around.
Do it the other way around.
Create graphics that look goodon your Instagram grid and then
repost that to Facebook,Linkedin, a wherever it is that
you are designed for Instagramfirst.
That is the one platform whereyour design matters the most.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (40:01):
Yeah, because it's aesthetic right.
It's just physically aestheticthe look.
Mishelle Thorpe (40:05):
Yep, yep, all they can see is that grid.
Yeah, they have zero context.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (40:12):
And what about your bio?
I think that kind of goes backto brand, but your bio is really
important.
Mishelle Thorpe (40:18):
Right, it is really important.
It is Now, not everyone's goingto take the time to read it,
but they are going to skim andsee those visuals.
So your visuals are going to benumber one, but you need to
make sure that folks can tell ata glance who you help or what
you do, why and how you do it.
If they can't, if your bio, ifyou're a business and your bio
(40:39):
is about you, you like cupcakes,you have three kids, you live
in Minneapolis that's great, butthat's not important to me as
someone who doesn't know you,who may be looking for a life
coach right, yeah, but if youtalk about what you do with who,
how you do it, why it'simportant, those kinds of things
(41:01):
.
That is relevant to me.
That's what I'm going to gowith.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:05):
Yeah, exactly , and that just goes right back
to your branding.
And then when you see the postsor the photos, videos, whatever
it is that resonates more withyou because you're looking for
the expert in lifestyle coaching, you want that person right and
then you're like, okay, this is, this is why I'm following them
right.
Mishelle Thorpe (41:26):
Absolutely, absolutely.
You have to make yourself inyour business shine, and 150
characters or less it's a tallorder on Instagram.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:33):
It is 150 characters or less.
Mishelle Thorpe (41:34):
It's a tall order, but it's doable.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:36):
Yeah, so should you put emojis in there.
Mishelle Thorpe (41:41):
If they add to the bio experience, as if it's
like this picture of a paw.
If it adds to the experience,if you don't overdo it.
If you're using it to describethat you love tacos and roller
coaster and things like that Isee that kind of stuff all the
time that's a hard no.
But if it adds to your bio, acouple that's fine, that's fine,
(42:03):
awesome.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (42:05):
So you talked about this a little bit, but
just kind of in the grid.
For sure, we know for Instagrambecause it's aesthetically
pleasing.
But is there anything else thatyou should approach differently
with other platforms?
So maybe Instagram versusFacebook.
Mishelle Thorpe (42:23):
Can you say that again?
I'm sorry it got jumbled.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (42:28):
Yeah, technology Just cut us off there
.
So just an approach.
So the approach to Instagram,we know is going to be different
than other platforms, forexample Facebook, because of the
grid experience.
But is there any other way thatit would be different?
I know for sure.
If you're going to post aboutthrough Instagram, then Facebook
, yes, is there anything elsethat you would say?
(42:50):
Or should you not?
Should you be creating like,then?
Obviously, if you're going tohave a TikTok account, you
better be creating something newfor TikTok, or can you use the
same?
Mishelle Thorpe (43:02):
Well, technically, TikTok is not
social media.
TikTok is an entertainmentplatform, kind of like YouTube,
and I am most definitely not aTikTok expert.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (43:12):
So I'm not a TikTok.
I have an account and I don'tthink I've ever actually put
anything on it.
Mishelle Thorpe (43:19):
So I feel like but TikTok, aesthetically though
, looks pretty similar toInstagram, although it is a
different experience because itis short form video and you
don't have the option, like youdo with Instagram, to post
mostly videos, or at least pinvideos to the top of your
profile.
But for I consider Instagram,Facebook and LinkedIn to be the
(43:40):
big three and for the big three,you want to make sure that
you're taking advantage of yourpinned, your posts, your
featured posts, whatever thatplatform calls it.
Make sure that you are puttingyour best content forward and
your best content I'll say itagain when we talked about it a
little bit earlier but it's kindof just, guys, a bust, a myth
(44:00):
that keeps people from workingwith you.
Yes, your freebie.
Tell them why they need it, notjust what it is, and a glowing
testimonial.
Make sure that those three areat the top of your page and that
they are graphics, not videosor photos.
Make sure that they make iteasy for them.
Dummy, proof it.
Put it right out there so that,unless they're not paying
(44:23):
attention, they're going to seeit.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (44:25):
I love that and I love how you say dummy,
proof i t.
.
And I hate to say this, butpeople will take the easiest
shortest way.
So, especially for pinnedthings, they're the first three
things that they see.
You're not going to scrollthrough your feed to find a
testimonial.
No but if it's right in theirface, they're going to read it.
Mishelle Thorpe (44:42):
Yep, yep, and it may cause them to want to
look deeper, but you have to getthem.
You have to get them.
Don't count on them readingcontent.
Don't count on them watchingvideo.
Don't count on them scrollingback to that.
One time you posted that reallywell, really amazing post.
Post it again or put it on topof your page.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (45:00):
Yep, I love that.
Do you have a most importantlesson that you can share that
you've learned along the way?
Mishelle Thorpe (45:07):
I think it would be not specifically
related to social media, but ifyou feel called to go in a
specific direction, especiallyif it's away from the path that
other people tell you you shouldtake, take it.
I know we already talked aboutthis, but we will always ask
ourselves what if and if youwere called to be an
(45:29):
entrepreneur?
I'm sorry, sis, you are notgoing to be happy working for
somebody else.
Just make a plan to exit andretire yourself and do this full
time.
You will not regret it.
It's the hardest I've everworked.
It is so much harder than whatI thought a hard day was in the
corporate office, but I would.
I could never go back to workfor someone else, never.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (45:52):
I would be a horrible employee.
I cannot agree with you more,though, because if it's in you
that fires burning in you, youmight try to put it out.
It's never going out.
It's supposed to be there.
Mishelle Thorpe (46:05):
It's always going to be calling to you and
when you're successful, when youhave proven that you can keep
your bills paid and roof overyour head, your family is going
to be like wow, we told you youwere a fool.
And look at you now and you'regoing to say yes, yes, exactly,
exactly.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (46:24):
And is there anything you wish you had known?
And maybe that's it, maybe youwish you had known that earlier,
but or anything else that youcould tell your younger self, or
something like oh, I wish Iwould have known that one.
I started.
Mishelle Thorpe (46:35):
Stop shooting all over yourself the things
that you should do.
If that's not what you want todo, if you don't feel like that
is your path.
This is our one life.
This is our one chance.
So what if you make a mistake?
So what if you fall down?
What if you fly?
Mackenzie Kilshaw (46:53):
Exactly.
And guess what, if you falldown, you just get back up
exactly.
Mishelle Thorpe (46:58):
Exactly, and it's just you just learn I've
fallen down.
We could talk for hours abouttimes that I have fallen down,
but I get back up every singletime and I'm still here.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (47:09):
Exactly and typically the people, your
audience, customers, whatever itis, they don't even know you
fell no exactly, it's typicallybehind the scenes and they don't
even know it.
So brush yourself off, get backup and get out there, right?
Mishelle Thorpe (47:23):
Exactly, people are paying far less attention
to you than you think.
Remember, it's not even socialmedia anymore to selfish media.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (47:31):
That's true.
It's so true.
I love that advice.
M, where can people find you?
I know they're going to want tolearn more.
Where's the best place for themto seek you out?
Mishelle Thorpe (47:39):
Instagram is my platform of choice as a graphic
designer.
That is where I feel called tobe, and you can find me at
thorpe.
Spell my name weird, it'sM-I-S-H-E-L-L-E.
Just type that in and I'mprobably the first one that pops
up.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (47:54):
And we will have your name obviously in the
show notes and everything elseso people can find you.
Literally go and look at sInstagram, who shocked that.
You said Instagram to find youright.
I think that's a fantastic wayto end this episode about
Instagram and strategy andwhatnot.
So thank you so much for beingon.
I learned a few things and Ilove it when I even learn, so I
(48:17):
know our audience is going tolearn a lot.
Yay, my joy, you're done.
It is awesome.
Thank you so much and foreverybody listening.
We'll see you on the nextepisode.
Thanks for listening to Winning.
Be sure to subscribe to get allof our new episodes.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media and leave a rating andreview wherever you listen to
(48:40):
Winning.
To catch all of the latestfrom us, you can follow Winning
Podcast on Instagram at uunderscore podcast, Facebook
facebook at Winning Podcastpodcast and on Twitter at
Winning pod.
Winning was created and isproduced by me, Mackenzie
mackenzie Kilshaw.
Kilschath Music, created byFirby Furby, editing by Seth
(49:00):
Armstrong.
Special thanks to Shauna Fosterfor voicing our opening and, of
course, a huge thank you tothis episode's guests.
Thanks again for listening andI'll see you on the next episode
.
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