May 14, 2024 • 44 mins
When Katie Snow traded the frenetic pace of restaurant management for the tech world's promise of balance, she brought with her a unique perspective on customer service that's reshaping how we view support in business. Tune in as we chat with this Director of Customer Success and Support to unravel her journey, proving that the skills honed in the most demanding of service industries are not only transferable but invaluable. Katie's candid sharing of her career evolution offers a beacon of hope for those seeking renewal in their professional paths.
In a world where the right app can transform entire industries, she peels back the curtain to reveal the intricacies of customer experience beyond the screen. We explore the art of customer retention, dissect the methods of de-escalating issues with the written word versus the immediacy of face-to-face encounters, and celebrate the breathing room that tech jobs offer. The conversation turns to the craft of onboarding customers in tech, where Katie has mastered the dance, ensuring each client's success is as meticulously planned as a five-star dining experience.
This episode wouldn't be complete without a heartfelt discussion on nurturing trust within teams through the lens of constructive feedback. We discuss the trials in providing tough feedback, highlighting the delicate balance between preserving a team member's dignity and steering them toward growth. We muse over the creation of safe spaces that encourage straightforward, empathetic dialogue, reflecting on how such environments can be a crucible for not only professional but also personal transformation. Tune in for an episode that's as much about leading with grace as it is about embracing change.
Mackenzie Kilshaw Co. offers comprehensive business coaching, and consulting tailored to your needs.
With Mackenzie's award winning entrepreneurial expertise in strategy, leadership, business development, branding, website development, social media management, SEO, sales and customer service training and more, clients receive personalized guidance to drive growth and success.
Let's make your business unforgettable!
We are looking for Sponsors for our show!
We have a variety of sponsorship packages to suit every business and budget.
If you have a business that you would like to promote to thousands of people, send us an email at podcastwinning@gmail.com or message us through Facebook or Instagram.
Thanks for listening to this Episode of #WINNING!
Follow #WINNING on:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/winning_podcast/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/winningpodcastpage
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Winningpod
Follow Host, Mackenzie Kilshaw, on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mackenziefirbykilshaw/
Visit our Website: https://podcastwinning.wixsite.com/mysite
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shauna Foster (00:20):
Winning will help you learn the hard lessons the
easy way, with guidance fromcelebrated entrepreneurs and
business leaders.
It's fun, it's informative,it's Winning.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (00:31):
Hello, welcome to Winning.
I'm your host, MackenzieKilshaw, and today's guest is
Katie Snow.
Hi Katie, Hi Mackenzie.
How are you today?
Really good, how are you?
I'm really good.
Thank you so much for being on.
Katie is the Director ofCustomer Success and Support at
Wisk.
AI.
It's an inventory managementsystem for restaurants.
(00:53):
She began her career in tech atSeven Shifts, where she spent
nearly five years helping tobuild and scale high performance
teams.
She's also received multipleawards for leadership and
mentoring, which we're going totalk a lot about today.
So, Katie, thanks for beinghere.
I'm excited that you're here.
Katie and I have workedtogether and I feel like we just
clicked, like the moment we met.
(01:14):
So I'm so happy to have you onand hear some of your
experiences.
But do you want to start withjust giving the audience a
little bit of an idea of who youare?
Katie Snow (01:24):
Yeah, for sure.
Well, thanks for having me,Mackenzie.
On a personal front, I'm Katie.
I'm a mom of two, wife to Ryan.
I live in Saskatoon,Saskatchewan, right now, born
and raised in New Brunswick, butSaskatchewan's home for my
family.
Now, On a more professionalfront, like Mackenzie said, I'm
the Director of Customer Successand Support at Wisk.
AI.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (02:05):
That's a lot.
I know because I lived in thatworld for a few years in tech
and in the customer service area, and I think people don't
realize all that goes into tech.
I mean new it's not really thatnew, but it's a newer area.
But there's so many things inthe tech world that happen
behind the scenes because formost of us, you download an app
or you buy a system that you'regoing to use for your business,
(02:28):
whatever it is, you oftentimesdon't ever even really know much
about the company.
You don't know anyone that isthere, right, like you're just
kind of sign up and you go forit, right?
Katie Snow (02:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly actually what happened
with me at Seven Shifts where Iused the app for years and I
didn't even it didn't even occurto me that there'd be a
business behind it until theopportunity was presented to me.
So you're right, yeah, we don'teven think about the business
behind the app.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (02:56):
Yeah, no, you don't, and you don't realize
all of the things that go intothat.
And really, in tech, yourprimary goal is, when someone
signs up, to keep them right.
That's what you want to do isto keep them there, because it's
really easy to be like, oh, Idon't use this, unsubscribe or
whatever it is right.
And it's the keeping them thereand then the making them happy
(03:18):
and delighted and everything.
And that's really where yourstrengths are.
Katie Snow (03:23):
Exactly.
Yeah, you don't think about itwhen you cancel your Spotify
subscription or your Netflixsubscription, that there's
someone behind the scenes goingno, we worked so hard for this.
But yeah, that's the world thatI live in.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (03:37):
into the tech world.
You kind of mentioned that youuse Seven Shifts first.
But how did you get where youare?
Katie Snow (03:44):
Yeah, that is a bit of an interesting story.
I would say it was divinetiming.
Honestly, I've been working asa restaurant manager for several
years and it was just wearingon me.
Honestly, Mackenzie like I, oranyone who's worked in
restaurants, knows that first ofall, once you're bit by that
restaurant buck, it's reallyhard to make an exit.
But also the life is just, it'shard.
(04:05):
You're not always rewardedreally generously on a financial
front.
For one, it's not lucrative inthat way.
I was working really long hours.
At this point I had two kidsand I'm trying to build my life
with my family and my kids andmy husband around this schedule.
That was just really hard tomanage.
Really long days, really latenights, unpredictability, like
if I was working at therestaurant and one of my the
(04:26):
school, called and my you know,my son was sick.
I'm like well, like I had tofind a way to go get him.
But how, if I'm the only one atthe restaurant, like you
couldn't just leave?
And I found that it was, eventhough the family that I worked
for they were incrediblysupportive.
Honestly, I think they affordedme more flexibility and grace
than most restaurant operatorswould, but it was just so hard
(04:48):
and I was struggling, strugglingfinancially, personally.
Everything was really hard, andso I was looking for an exit
and it seemed like every doorthat I was approaching was
closing.
So a friend of mine who had acontact that worked at seven
shifts and knew that I was justlooking for something, I was
(05:09):
just looking for an out, Um.
So, hey, I have a friend thatworks at this company.
It's a tech company, it'scalled Seven Shifts.
I don't really know what itdoes, but this seems like a role
that could be a fit for you.
I'm like Seven Shifts.
And that was that moment whereI'm like oh, there's a business
behind this app that I interactwith every day, every day.
And it seems, seems crazy, but,um, I ended up.
It was just sort of like theperfect combination of events
(05:32):
that ended up landing me thisrole at seven shifts.
Um, so I started there as acustomer support rep.
I was like slinging phone callsand live chats.
I was on the front lines, um,and all of a sudden, things just
really started to fall intoplace for me.
Really, I was being recognizedfor my strengths.
I was being recognized for myability to solve problems and
(05:52):
the way that I could handlethese customer escalations and
things like that, and it waslike, oh my gosh, this is what
I've been training for.
All of these doors have beenclosed on me because I was meant
to be here.
This was the role that wasmeant for me.
So I ended up being fortunateenough to be offered several
promotions from the time Ijoined, as a CSR, through like
(06:13):
between customer success andonboarding and leading a
technical team.
And I'm just so, so thankfulfor the leaders at Seven Shifts
that saw something in me.
They saw a fire and they sawtranslatable skills.
And because of like we're goingto talk about the feedback that
they offered and because theywere generous with that, they
helped just they helped me tosee my value again and regain
some level of confidence and Irealized, okay, all of these
(06:34):
things I've been dealing with inthe restaurant space are really
translatable to to tech and tocustomer growth and experience.
So all that to say, that's howI landed where I am today.
Just really great leaders alongthe way and sort of divine
timing, with Seven Shifts, Iwould say.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (06:51):
Yeah, it's really cool that when you look
back at it.
Well, two things I have to say.
First of all, the restaurantbusiness.
There's no other customerservice teacher that's better
than the restaurant industry,because you literally face every
type of of customer serviceinteraction, issue, problem,
(07:14):
delight, whatever it is that youcould face in the restaurant
business.
Right, I feel like that's thebest teacher you could ever have
?
Katie Snow (07:21):
Yes, and because people are there in like, like
in retail, retail you go in andyou want to buy something, you
want to have a good experience.
I mean, you know this fromrunning your store.
Like, people want to have agood shopping experience, but
they're not paying for theshopping experience, they're
paying for the item, whereas ata restaurant you go out for the
experience, right like you're,you want to celebrate something,
(07:41):
or you you had a long day andyou're going out because you
don't want to cook or whateverit is, but like, the experience
is a huge part of it.
So as soon as that experiencestarts to be derailed, even if
it's not your fault as theserver maybe the kitchen's
backed up or maybe you're justout of something like that
wasn't my fault, but I'm the onethat has to look the customer
dead in the eye and try to makethings right with them.
So that, like real time.
(08:02):
Real time experience definitelyhelped to shape me.
It was hard.
I wouldn't love to do it again,but I it was worth it.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (08:12):
Yeah, and the thing too is people are really
passionate about their food andtheir experience, so if they
love it or hate it, you're goingto hear about it.
Right, like there's, you knowit's coming out.
And if there's a problem, youknow.
You talked about problemsolving skills and how you're
recognized for that, because youhad all of that experience and
(08:33):
that's likely when you said allthese other doors were closing
and it was probably veryfrustrating, deflating thinking
I need to move on, but I can't.
And just at that time, herecomes this role.
Katie Snow (08:46):
Right, yes, yeah, and I think people really
underestimate it.
I mean, restaurantprofessionals are not.
It's not a highly regardedposition, right, it's so often
it's something that you just dowhile you're in school or
university or as a young adult,when you're figuring things out,
and that's what I wanted it tobe for me.
But I was having a hard timeproving my value to anyone
(09:08):
because that was really the onlyexperience I had and what I
wanted to say is like if youonly knew you know, like if you
only knew that I had, like, asingle mom with two kids through
university and working thesehours, and if you only knew the
level of like resilience thatI've developed or how good I can
be in these situations.
Like if I could somehow showyou that I know you'd see my
value.
But it was.
(09:28):
It was really hard.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (09:29):
Yeah, so how did things change?
Let's talk about customerservice for a minute.
How did things change when youwere actually face to face with
your customers in the restaurantbusiness?
Then going to tech, wherethey're not actually I mean they
might be on a phone call butthey're likely more to be on an
(09:50):
email or a chat message orsomething how did that kind of
shift, like how you were dealtwith them?
Katie Snow (09:58):
Yeah, that's a good question.
You know, until this moment,until you, you almost just
connected some dots for mebecause my early days of Seven
Shifts I joined, there was onlya few of us on the support team
and then I was reporting into,at the time, the director of
support.
It was phenomenal.
Anyway, the escalations wouldcome in, really angry customers
(10:21):
frustrated with technical issuesor who knows, like anything
under the sun that they'refrustrated with.
They'd come into us and I waslike eager to talk to them
because it felt so easy.
And there were others on theteam that was like I don't want
to, I don't have to email backand forth with this person
because, like they're upset orthere's no way.
I'm calling this person and Ican remember being like put me
in, coach, like this is yeah, itfelt so easy, um, to not have
(10:43):
to be there the moment.
Like if someone sends you afrustrating email, you've got
time, you can write it andrewrite it and you can think
about it, whereas on the spotyou go to check on a table and
they're like explosive.
You have to react quickly.
You better know how to movequick.
So I would say, really I justfelt like it was a breath of
fresh air to be able to sitbehind a computer or behind a
(11:03):
phone.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (11:16):
No-transcript yeah, that's really cool and I
think too, like you say, it doesgive you time, because if
someone is upset at not younecessarily in the restaurant,
but they're taking it on youbecause you're the person in
front of them versus an emailthat you can literally sit back
(11:39):
and be like, okay, let me get inthis person's head, like what
are they actually upset about?
Or what?
How did this, how can Iempathize with them?
Right?
Um it, it does give you thatability to to kind of craft more
of a response.
Right, then, just be off of thetop of your head.
I do.
I'm a strong believer thatcustomer service is customer
(12:00):
service, right, but there'sdefinitely different scenarios,
like if you can handle a badsituation in the restaurant, you
can handle it in tech, you canhandle it on my clothing store,
right.
Katie Snow (12:11):
Yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (12:11):
Skills, but it's definitely different,
different ways of doing it,because it's different, similar
situations, but really adifferent environment.
Yeah, adaptable.
Right, you have to be adaptableto that new.
Yeah, it's a very translatable,very translatable skill.
Katie Snow (12:33):
That's why they say even like um.
I don't know if this stillstands today, but I can recall a
time not too long ago whenpeople said if someone has
Mcdonald's experience on theirresume, like you know, they've
been through the thick of it,like it well, it equips them
well for their life ofemployment.
And I think you could say thesame about restaurant experience
.
Like someone that's and I thinkthat's part of the reason that
(12:53):
at Seven Shifts and also at Wisk.
AI, we have a preference forhiring people who have worked in
the restaurant industry and itworks out really well because,
like nine times out of 10,they're just incredibly hard
workers, because it's like itfeels like this luxury to work
in tech after working in therestaurant industry.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (13:12):
Yeah, and you're not working until two in
the morning or every Saturday Iget to take a weekend.
Yeah, that's the thing.
But that also goes back towhere you said at the beginning
you were looking for really moretime with your family and the
ability to have some flexibility, and that is.
One great thing about tech isthat you do that right, you're
(13:34):
not working on a saturday nightusually.
Um, sometimes there's thingsthat happen, I guess, but in the
restaurant business youdefinitely were.
So I think that career changeand I know you so I know how
awesome you are at customerservice and support but that
career change just seemed to fityou so well, like I think you
(13:56):
were made for that tech spacereally.
Katie Snow (13:59):
Thank you, I like to think so.
It does feel like a really goodfit really good fit.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (14:09):
Yeah for sure .
Let's talk a little bit.
We mentioned it, we weren'teven going to talk about this.
But I want to talk a little bitabout onboarding because I
think, like you said and I saidto him, like people don't know
what happens behind the scenes.
So do you want to just give alittle bit, and I think we'll
talk to you about how that cantranslate to other businesses,
but don't just give kind of alittle bit.
What is onboarding and what doyou mean when you say you're
(14:31):
onboarding customers?
Katie Snow (14:34):
Sure, yeah.
So onboarding maybe.
I'll just speak to Wisk inparticular and what onboarding
looks like for us.
So Wisk is an inventorymanagement solution for bar and
restaurants and, as you canimagine, inventory is a really
heavy.
It's a heavy lift.
It's really important, itreally impacts your bottom line,
helps you to understand whereyour money's going, what kind of
(14:59):
stock you've got on hand, whereyour needs are and also just
whether or not you're reachingyour goals and staying within
your margins.
But all that to say,implementing a new inventory
management system is not easyand basically what we do at Wisk
when a new customer comes to usand they go through the sales
(15:20):
process and they decide, yep, Iwant to try Wisk as a solution,
then what they're going to do isthey're going to be passed on
to a customer success managerand they're going to do their
onboarding.
So they're going to do akickoff call and they're going
to say why are you here?
What is it you're strugglingwith?
Do you need to see a variancereporter?
What is it that you need to seein order to help you get a
better handle on your businessoperations, kind of understand
their goals, who thestakeholders are, and then from
(15:41):
there we're going to help themto set a timeline and a plan for
implementation.
So when do you actually want toget to this point?
What's your capacity like rightnow?
If I'm talking to a restaurantand it's like if it's the middle
of July and their patio is openand they've got a summer
feature menu and they're ahotspot in the summer, that's
probably when they're workingthe hardest all year.
It's probably not the best timeto implement an inventory
(16:03):
management solution where youhave to go and you have to input
every item that exists in yourrestaurant.
But we're going to say what'syour capacity like?
Who do you have on your team?
Who can be responsible forthese things that we need?
And then from there we're goingto go about basically, they
take the Wisk app on their phone, they go into their beer cage
in the back, they're going tostart with all their drinks and
they're just going to scan allthose barcodes.
They're going to start buildingtheir inventory list from there.
(16:26):
So what we're doing from anonboarding point is giving them
homework.
We're saying, okay, go do thisand then come back to us and
we're going to walk you throughwhat's next, instead of giving
them this long laundry list ofthings they have to do before
they see value.
We're just really walking armswith them and saying we want to
help you see value.
We want you to get up andrunning and see the value.
So you stay with us.
So we're going to walk youthrough how to do it.
So that's really whatonboarding is.
It's like here's your homework,go scan your bottles, Let me
(16:47):
know.
When you're done we'll meetagain and then we're giving them
the next thing okay, send usyour recipes so we can connect
things from your point of saleto the ingredients that we know
you have in house and we canstart tracking the cost of your
plates and what you're using.
So I think that pretty muchcovers it.
Basically, we're working withthem until they've got their
wheels off the ground, they havean understanding of how to use
(17:08):
the tool, train their team onhow to use the tool and once
they see that first value, thenwe're saying, okay, come back
and let me know if you'rerunning into any struggles, but
I think your team is ready tocontinue to manage this on your
own.
I'll check in with you in maybethree months or whatever that
cadence looks like with thatparticular customer.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (17:26):
Yeah, I think I'm a huge believer on systems
and implementing systems to helpyou, and especially now with
technology, to think that an appor a computer system or
whatever it is can do all thisfor you.
Like imagine before they wereliterally just figuring this out
with a pen and paper, or maybelike their margins, maybe not
(17:47):
even really figuring it out,right, yeah, or like a huge
issue is guessing.
Katie Snow (17:52):
Yeah, a huge issue is like sometimes they feel like
those liquor bottles have legs.
They're like there's no way wewent through 24 bottles of this
liquor, like in the point ofsale it only says that we use
this much, you know.
So we're helping to see wherethat variance is, where you know
, are we overpouring?
Are we using an expensive vodkain a cocktail that we should be
using the well, vodka?
Like helping them to see thosetrends.
(18:13):
And that's a real experiencethat actually happened this week
where the customer was likethis doesn't make sense.
Like I did inventory and thenwe have our point of sale
telling us we use this muchvodka.
What's going on?
And it was like, well, theirbartender was knowingly or
unknowingly, who knows, but theywere substituting the wrong
vodka.
That costs the restaurant a lotof money because that cocktail
is priced based on what the costof the ingredients is right, so
(18:36):
that's just crushing theirmargins.
Yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (18:40):
Okay.
So I think there's two lessonshere.
The first lesson is that anysystem that you're having, or
that if you're looking for asystem, check with them if they
have an onboarding program,because it's going to make you a
lot more successful with the,with the system, right.
But also now you can explain tothat person no, this is what's
(19:02):
happening, right.
And second of all, um, really,how important it is to know your
numbers and know yourfinancials, because I think for
a lot of people, you kind ofjust get rolling in your
business and you're like, yep,this is the price, everything is
good, and you don't actuallyever monitor that.
And there are ways to tomonitor it.
(19:25):
Like, that's such a cool thing.
I'm not in the restaurantbusiness, but I think if you are
and you're listening, youbetter give Katie not Katie
specifically, but give her acheckout.
Yeah, exactly, but it's true.
And the whole onboarding, it'sreally to set the customer up
for success, isn't it?
Katie Snow (19:46):
It is.
We want to find those quickwins for you so you can see what
kind of impact it's going tohave in your business, or maybe
that it's not going to work inyour business, because the
reality is sometimes that's howit works too.
Is you think it's going to bethe perfect fit and you start
implementing and say, oh okay,like our point of sale is set up
this way, this is our currentprocess and we're not willing to
change this.
And we can help you figure thatout sooner.
(20:06):
So you don't pay for thesoftware for 18 months, thinking
why am I not getting value?
But let's work together.
We're on the same team theonboarding manager and the
customer are on the same team.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (20:18):
Yeah, that's great, and I think, too, this is
translatable to lots ofdifferent businesses.
When you're just talking aboutcustomer onboarding, but, like I
say, it's working with yourcustomers, making sure that
everything's going reallysmoothly in their life or
whatever.
It is right.
Even me in my clothing storemaybe that quote unquote
onboarding was helping someonefind you know what are you
(20:41):
looking for oh, dress for awedding and helping find
something bringing themalternatives.
I mean, they're not necessarilyonboarding into a system, but
it's onboarding them into yourbusiness, which I think
translate kind of across a lotof different environments for
sure.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, feedback.
I really am excited to talk toyou about feedback.
(21:03):
I will just put this out thereFeedback was never one of my
strong suits as an entrepreneur.
I always gave feedback, positivefeedback.
I really grew that because it'sreally easy to tell somebody
you did a fantastic job, the wayyou handled that situation was
(21:24):
amazing, whatever, and we'regoing to talk about this a
little bit.
But giving negative feedbackwas never one of my strong suits
.
So I'm really excited to talkto you about this and maybe gain
some skills myself on feedback.
But let's just start first ofall, why is delivering feedback
(21:45):
so important and essential?
Really, not just important, butessential.
Katie Snow (21:49):
Yeah, um.
So I think feedback isimportant for everyone.
I think it's a foundation oftrust for one.
If you're giving and receivingfeedback with someone, typically
you're going to feel reallycomfortable, knowing, like,
where you stand with them,whether that's positive,
specific praise or constructivefeedback.
Um, but particularly as aleader, I think one of your key
objectives is to develop people.
(22:10):
A rising tide raises all boats,so you want to be continuously
elevating those around you.
So, as a leader especially, youhave this responsibility to
those around you and most people, I think we can assume desire
to do good and to reach somemark of success.
Generally speaking and we know,trust is the foundation of these
strong relationships, and inorder to build trust, you have
(22:31):
to show that you care enoughabout the other person to put
their best interest over yourown momentary discomfort.
So if we're failing to deliverfeedback, it's going to cost
that other person.
It could cost them anything.
It could cost them their job,their relationship, maybe a
promotion or a milestone.
It could cost them a long listof things, but it's almost
(22:53):
always going to cost them morethan the slight discomfort that
it's going to cost you.
So I think for that reason,giving constructive feedback
specifically, is just reallyimportant in order to develop
that trust and respect for youas a leader.
And I think we all haveshortcomings, right like we all
fall short.
(23:13):
But if someone, specifically aleader, is noticing this
shortcoming or something you'redoing that's negatively
impacting your growth or yourrelationships and they're not
willing to tell you about it,then you can be sure they care
more about themselves than theycare about you.
They care more about what youliked than helping you to grow.
So, um, ultimately, yeah,ultimately, trust builds trust.
(23:34):
We know that the foundation ofa strong team is trust, um, both
at their leader and around them.
So, I think, if you have reallystrong trust, if you have, if
you have found a foundation oftrust and respect from your team
(23:56):
, then it results in improvedbuy-in, improved collaboration
and better results all around.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (24:03):
And this is one of the things we're just
working on right now is that itdoesn't matter who's on your
team, how smart they are, theireducational background,
experiences, whatever.
If that team doesn't have thattrust with each other and with
(24:24):
you as the leader, there's justgoing to be issues.
So I love that you talked aboutthat, because I think that is
the best way to get your teamgoing in the direction you want
them to go right.
And individuals, of course,which build your team.
But I agree that trust if it'snot there, you're just going to
have problems from the get-go100%.
(24:45):
Yeah, delivering feedback.
What's the best way to do it?
I don't know if it's you're theexpert here, so you tell us.
But I know that some people arelike, oh, you should do it in a
group, you should do itone-on-one, you should have um,
you know, every, every so often,you need to have a meeting for
(25:05):
feedback, like what reallyreally is.
I mean, I don't know if there'sone way, but what is the best
way to deliver feedback?
Katie Snow (25:14):
So good question.
I don't think that there is oneway set in stone.
I think it's yourresponsibility as a leader
especially, to know your peopleand know what their preferences
are, and also just to be human,like we don't have to make it
such a big thing, that it's likeI'm going into this feedback
conversation and I have toexecute in this way.
It's bringing actually thathumanity and humility with you.
(25:36):
So in terms of like the best,the best method or like the best
medium for delivering it, rightnow, I mean, I work in a remote
world, so the closest I get toface to face is through like a
Google meet.
But I like just to ask theother person if you have
feedback for them.
Typically, if I have a new teammember join my team, I'll ask
(25:57):
them that in their first coupleof weeks how do you like to
receive feedback?
Because people process thingsdifferently.
Some people prefer to get it inwriting so that they can digest
, they can read it a couple oftimes, then we can meet and they
can ask questions.
Maybe they're like aparticularly emotional person
and, let's face it, people don'twant to cry in front of their
boss.
So maybe that, just if theyknow that about themselves, the
(26:17):
networks.
Maybe they prefer face-to-faceso that we can talk through it.
I think that the biggest thingis to find know your people,
know what they like and whattheir preferences are, and, if
you're not sure, just to ask andsaying something like I've got
some feedback I want to sharewith you and I'm hope, I'm
hoping that I can, um, that itwill provide value for you.
That will help you because now,at good time, if they say yes,
(26:39):
like sure, face-to-face better,or do you want me to type it out
, like just ask, yeah, the pointis you're just getting the
feedback to them.
It doesn't really matter howit's delivered.
But then, when it actually comestime to deliver that feedback,
I think bringing that humanitywith us as well, and
acknowledging that I've been ina situation, on both ends of
giving and receiving feedback,where emotion has been really
high, and one of the best thingsthat one of my leaders ever did
(27:01):
for me was I was having a toughconversation with him and I was
getting really emotional, andbecause I was getting emotional,
I was spending more timefocusing on what my face looked
like and whether you could tellI was turning red and I was
teary.
Then I was actually invested inthe conversation and he had
said to me do you want to justturn our videos off?
And it was like he just gave methat integrity.
He let me keep my integrityintact.
(27:21):
We turned our videos off.
Then I could just like crythrough the conversation.
I didn't have to worry.
But he truly held space.
He didn't rush me off the call,he didn't.
He didn't try to say nicethings to make me stop crying.
And the biggest lesson that Itook away from that was like I
got to leave that conversationwith my integrity intact.
I got to actually invest in theconversation because I wasn't
(27:42):
worried about the you know himseeing me cry and what I looked
like in this total ugly state.
But also he just held the spaceand I've brought that lesson
with me as a leader and I'vetried so hard to pay it forward
and acknowledge that when Ideliver feedback, the idea is to
help the other person.
Sometimes they're going to cry,sometimes they're going to be
(28:03):
upset.
It's not up to me to controltheir reaction.
It's up to me to be as human aspossible and to truly hold
space.
I think holding space is abuzzword right now.
We hold space for this and thatfor everything.
But what that means in thecontext of giving feedback is
that you're allowing that personto receive it and to digest it
however works for them, andyou're not rushing them off the
(28:25):
call.
You're not trying to then, youknow, toss in some praise or
it's okay, or don't cry or like,don't take it personally, no,
just hold the space.
And if it's an in-personsetting I had heard one time on
another podcast, like if you'regonna be meeting someone in
person, you know it's gonna beemotional Make sure there's a
bottle of water, make surethere's a bottle of water or
something to take a sip ofnearby, because you can hand
(28:47):
someone a Kleenex.
Sure, like.
The last thing I want to do isblow my runny nose in front of
someone who's deliveringfeedback and I'm already feeling
insecure but, like taking a sipof water and a moment to
breathe and just something to dowith your hands can go a long
way.
So just thinking about thosethings that allow the other
person to just feel comfortable,to just feel comfortable.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (29:08):
Yeah, I think that's really great advice.
And the thing too is, you don'tknow how they're going to react
, so, and they're going to reacthow they react, like there's
nothing you can do about that,right?
I've had feedback that wasn'teven that negative and I got
emotional about it.
And then it was like in my ownhead thinking why am I getting
so emotional about like thisisn't bad?
(29:30):
Why am I getting so like workedup about it, right?
So we've all been there.
Okay, I feel like for myself forsure, like I said before,
giving positive feedback is awhole heck of a lot easier than
having to give someone negativeor maybe not so great feedback,
than having to give someonenegative or maybe not so great
(29:52):
feedback.
So what are some tips or what'ssome some good ways to deliver
that feedback?
And I mean, if it's negative,it's negative.
I don't want to say you have tolike make it less negative, but
just what are some tips to kindof ease that, I guess, for the
for you giving it and maybe forreceiving it too?
Katie Snow (30:09):
I guess, for you giving it and maybe for
receiving it too, yeah, so forgiving it.
I think the most importantthing we kind of already chatted
about was just making surethere is a foundation of trust,
and there's a book calledRadical Candor by Kim Scott that
I live and die by.
She is the queen of how to Well, radical candor is defined as
caring personally whilechallenging directly.
So if the people you're leadingknow that you care personally
(30:31):
about them, you can challengethem directly and it doesn't
seem so disastrous.
They know that you have theirbest interest in mind and it's
not a threat.
And so you've used the word acouple of times now negative
feedback, and I think we have toreframe to just constructive,
which is, I mean, same same,same but different, right.
It doesn't have to reframe tojust constructive, which is, I
mean, same same, same butdifferent, right.
(30:53):
It doesn't have to be a badthing, it can actually be a good
thing, it's just constructive.
So if they, if you're, if thepeople around you, know that you
care really deeply about themand that your intention is to
help them it's that's the firststep it's going to be received a
lot better.
I have an example of a piece offeedback I had to deliver one
time.
It was possibly the hardestfeedback I've ever had to
(31:13):
deliver and basically the shortof it is brought someone new
onto a team I was leading and hejust rubbed people the wrong
way.
They just didn't like him.
And at first the feedback wascoming into me and I'm like you
guys, like fine, you don't haveto be friends with this person
like, you just have to, we'vegot to figure this out, we've
got to figure out how you canwork together.
(31:34):
But the feedback just keptrolling in and rolling in and
I'm like okay, this is now justa distraction and this is a
waste of time.
So I was trying to get them togive this feedback directly.
I'm like, if something that hesays rubs you the wrong way,
tell him.
But it was so personal.
Mackenzie was like the feedbackwas literally just I don't like
you, and that is the hardest.
It's very personal.
(31:55):
And so this leads me to well,two things.
One, we never want to startfeedback by saying don't take it
personally, because it ispersonal.
It's always personal, right,it's not a personal attack, but
it is personal.
Um, but anyways, I ended up.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (32:11):
It's I ended up saying like pardon, no, it's
just you as yourself.
When someone says something toyou, even if they're trying to
help you, your first kind ofthing is to take offense to it
because it's like I didn't do itright or good enough or
whatever it is.
And that's you personally, soit's understandable for sure.
Katie Snow (32:32):
Yeah.
So with this particular personI ended up like I went to work
and trying to figure out likehow can I?
give basically basically m, sobut.
But I'm like, okay, how can Igo in for the kill?
I gotta rip the band-aid offbecause this guy's gonna
self-sabotage.
Basically because at the end ofthe day, if you can't
(32:54):
collaborate with your team likeit is going to be an issue, it's
going to impact your success inthe role.
So I I mustered up the courage.
I just asked him if we couldchat.
I said I've got some toughfeedback to deliver to you and
it's going to feel reallypersonal.
Is this an okay time?
And he's like yeah for sure.
And I basically said like youknow, your performance is really
(33:16):
good.
There's no concerns on thatfront.
And I, I think I did say also,this feedback is hard for me to
give to you and you, you knowyou never want to make it about
yourself during feedback, but Idid acknowledge because I was
like visibly uncomfortable.
So I wanted him to know thereason that I look so
uncomfortable is because I carethat this lands the right way
(33:36):
and it's just hard.
So I hope that it lands theright way and we can chat
through it if it doesn't.
But I basically just said likeI think it's really important
that you know how you're beingperceived by the team, and I
shared some examples of how hetypically engaged a lot when he
wanted to showcase a win, but hedidn't engage a lot when
another team member shared a winor he didn't celebrate others a
lot and it just kind of madehim look arrogant.
(33:56):
And I'm like to be honest, likethe feedback is just that, like
you're not an enjoyable personto work with.
That's all there is to it.
And the reason this matters isbecause, like it's going to
stunt your growth, because a lotof the successes we have as a
team come from strongcollaboration.
You're going to lean on yourteammates for support on things.
And then I just said, did do youknow you're being perceived
this way?
And he was like no, I was likeI didn't think so.
(34:20):
Like I know, I know your heart,like I think I think you just
want to do a good job and Ithink it's okay for others, for
you, to want others around youto know you do a good job.
That's human nature.
I also want praise and I wantpeople to tell me I'm doing a
good job.
So, like, seriously, no harm,no foul, but what are we going
to do about it?
And he was like, yeah, likewhat can we do about it?
And Mackenzie, it was like thenext.
(34:42):
I feel like within a week it wasresolved and there were
relationships, sort of buddingon the team, and things were
good.
And looking back, like I'm so,I'm so thankful that I put
myself in that uncomfortableposition for 15, 20 minutes, so
so I didn't have to move themout of the business because
that's what it was going toresult in.
It was going to result in ahuge loss for him, and it didn't
have to, because he just neededto know someone needed to tell
(35:04):
him hey, we kind of think you'rea jerk and we don't like
working with you.
And so we saw like an immediateturnaround.
And it turns out he is a superlikable person.
He was just trying really hardto make his mark in the business
and it was going to cost himhis job or something to that
effect.
But, um, he apologized to theteam.
He came forward and was, likeyou know, explained his, the way
that he thought he was beingperceived and what he was, you
(35:26):
know, trying to do within theteam.
Um, and from there on out,people felt a little bit more
comfortable and as a leader, Igained the respect of the team
that I wasn't going to shy awayfrom it just because they
couldn't clearly articulate Um.
But I built that trust and youknow what?
It made it easier to go toother people on the team with
feedback, cause they're likewell, she cares, right, like
(35:49):
she's going to tell me she'sgoing to tell me if something's
off.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (35:51):
So, yeah, that's awesome and I I like the
way you did that by prefacing it.
Like, this is a really hardconversation for me to have with
you, because if you're visiblyawkward or uncomfortable, like
they're going to pick up on thattoo, and you know like you
don't want it to go sidewaysright from the beginning.
So I think that was a reallygood approach.
Um, feedback is something toothat I've been in roles where
(36:18):
there's just like crickets andyou have no clue what you're
doing or how you're doing.
So what happens when you don'tgive feedback?
Like, what detriments do yousee from that when you don't
receive feedback?
Yeah, like, so if you're um, if, or if you're the owner of the
business and you don't, you'renot giving your staff feedback
(36:40):
or your team feedback, um, like,what can, what can go south for
you?
Katie Snow (36:45):
Right, I think you just sort of lose control over
growth If you aren't givingfeedback.
People are probably flounderinga little bit, even if they
don't show it.
They may not be clear in whichof their behaviors are helping
them versus what you're harmingthem.
And there's always somethinglike you can, you know, think of
any person you've ever workedwith.
There's always something youcan point out that you liked
about working with them andsomething that you didn't love.
(37:06):
And if we don't point out thosethings that we don't love or
that aren't beneficial, or evenquirks, like everyone has blind
spots, and if we're not pointingthose out, they're going to
perpetuate because they justdon't know, right?
So I think you just losecontrol over, like, the
elevation of your business Ifyou're not regularly giving
feedback.
And as a business owner, Iwould care about the amount of
time wasted by people trying tofigure out you know what they're
(37:28):
doing well and what they're notdoing well, cause if you're not
giving them feedback, youbetter believe like they're
thinking about it.
Like am I doing okay?
Am I performing okay?
Where do I stand with thisperson?
And those are man hours thatyou don't want to want to be
wasted.
So why not just cut to thechase and and be really clear,
to really clear about um, aboutwhere people stand with you.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (37:53):
It's easier for everybody.
Yeah, I agree, and, like yousaid, where if you didn't have
that difficult conversation withthat one team member, you
likely would have had to let himgo essentially and just think
about that having to let someonego and hire someone new and
bring them on and train them, doall of that that's a heck of a
lot worse.
To me, more work than justhaving that conversation.
Katie Snow (38:10):
Right, yes, and the negative impact that that has on
the team.
So, as you're answering thequestion better than I am, that
is the negative effect.
If you don't do it and you haveto move someone out of the
business, then there's changemanagement.
Then other people are shakingin their shoes for the next
three weeks trying to recoverand you know there's always
little instances cropping upreminding you that this person
(38:44):
was let go and there's probablycapacity issues in the interim.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (38:47):
While you fill the role, your career,
whether it's customer service orfeedback or whatever it is is
there a most important lessonthat you think you learned that
you want to share with the ?
Katie Snow (39:06):
I think, don't be ruinously empathetic.
I think, as a leader, we have,as a human, we have a tendency
to want to be liked, and beingliked and being respected are
two different things.
So, when you're faced with abusiness decision whether that's
around giving feedback,receiving feedback, um, really
(39:28):
anything in terms ofimplementation or change
management in the business whenyou're making decisions, you
need to think am I behaving in away that caters to me being
liked, or maybe being respectedand giving feedback, for example
, or even sometimes movingsomeone out of the business,
you're not going to be liked inthe short term.
I've also been in the positionwhere I've had to let someone go
(39:48):
who the team really, reallyloved but who was, at the end of
the day, sandbagging the team,and in the short term, they did
not like me for that.
But in the longterm, evenpeople who were extremely upset
about it in the beginning and Ihad always tried to create an
environment where they couldcome to me, come tell me, like,
(40:09):
if you're mad about it, let'slike, tell me.
You know we have to create thatopen dialogue and I um, I can
remember people coming, peoplebeing really upset about it and
then coming back to me a coupleof weeks later and saying I have
really respect that decision,like I see it now.
Now I see, because you knowI've had to pick up their email
threads or I've had to do this,and like it's clear.
So just really thinking aboutthe difference between being
liked and being respected as aleader.
And then the other thing Ithink, just from like my whole,
(40:29):
like from the onset of meworking in the restaurant
industry to where I am today,something that I would leave
listeners with is just that,like your grit is never wasted,
I definitely felt like I wasoverworked and under-recognized
and underpaid for so long and Ithought like I lost all
confidence.
Like do I have value to offersomeone?
And then, when I joined sevenshifts, it was like the bamboo
(40:51):
effect.
It's like my growth at 10 X, Iwas afforded these opportunities
that in the moment, I canremember coming home to my
husband and saying like I don'tdeserve this, like how have I
been offered this?
And it was like no, no, this islike finally, repayment for the
hard work that you've put it,like you've done the hours, like
you've you've put in the timeto learn these skills and to to
develop this type of value andnow it's just being recognized.
(41:11):
So if you are working reallyhard and you're not getting
where you want to go, um, Ithink you know, if you're not
planted in the right soil you'renot going to thrive, right?
You just have to find that youhave to be planted in the right
soil.
The grit is not wasted.
So keep working hard, but alsokeep looking for that
environment where you can havethat growth and that opportunity
(41:32):
to showcase all the hard workyou've put in.
So the grit's never wasted.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:36):
I love that advice and I agree.
Nothing substitutes that hardwork and perseverance, right?
Nothing.
Awesome, atie, thank you somuch for being on.
I know people probably want toknow a little bit more too, and
I know you have a really greatLinkedIn page, so is that the
best place for them to find youif they want to learn more or
(41:57):
reach out?
Katie Snow (41:59):
Yeah, definitely.
I would be really happy toconnect or to chat or book
coffee with anyone that wants toreach out and chat more about
anything leadership, mentorship,feedback, especially so you can
find me on LinkedIn, for sure.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (42:12):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, atie, forbeing on.
I had such a blast this timejust flew by.
So thank you very much foreveryone listening.
We'll see you on the nextepisode.
Thanks for listening to Winning.
Be sure to subscribe to get allof our new episodes.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
(42:33):
media and leave a rating andreview wherever you listen to
Winning.
To catch all of the latest fromus, you can follow Winning
Podcast on Instagram at winningunderscore podcast, facebook at
Winning Podcast, and on Twitterat winning pod.
Winning was created and isproduced by me, mackenzie
(42:53):
Kilshaw Music, created by SummerFurby, editing by Seth
Armstrong.
Special thanks to Shauna Fosterfor voicing our opening and, of
course, a huge thank you tothis episode's guest.
Thanks again for listening andI'll see you on the next episode
.
Winning will help you learn the hard lessons the
easy way, with guidance fromcelebrated entrepreneurs and
business leaders.
It's fun, it's informative,it's Winning.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (00:31):
Hello, welcome to Winning.
I'm your host, MackenzieKilshaw, and today's guest is
Katie Snow.
Hi Katie, Hi Mackenzie.
How are you today?
Really good, how are you?
I'm really good.
Thank you so much for being on.
Katie is the Director ofCustomer Success and Support at
Wisk.
AI.
It's an inventory managementsystem for restaurants.
(00:53):
She began her career in tech atSeven Shifts, where she spent
nearly five years helping tobuild and scale high performance
teams.
She's also received multipleawards for leadership and
mentoring, which we're going totalk a lot about today.
So, Katie, thanks for beinghere.
I'm excited that you're here.
Katie and I have workedtogether and I feel like we just
clicked, like the moment we met.
(01:14):
So I'm so happy to have you onand hear some of your
experiences.
But do you want to start withjust giving the audience a
little bit of an idea of who youare?
Katie Snow (01:24):
Yeah, for sure.
Well, thanks for having me,Mackenzie.
On a personal front, I'm Katie.
I'm a mom of two, wife to Ryan.
I live in Saskatoon,Saskatchewan, right now, born
and raised in New Brunswick, butSaskatchewan's home for my
family.
Now, On a more professionalfront, like Mackenzie said, I'm
the Director of Customer Successand Support at Wisk.
AI.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (02:05):
That's a lot.
I know because I lived in thatworld for a few years in tech
and in the customer service area, and I think people don't
realize all that goes into tech.
I mean new it's not really thatnew, but it's a newer area.
But there's so many things inthe tech world that happen
behind the scenes because formost of us, you download an app
or you buy a system that you'regoing to use for your business,
(02:28):
whatever it is, you oftentimesdon't ever even really know much
about the company.
You don't know anyone that isthere, right, like you're just
kind of sign up and you go forit, right?
Katie Snow (02:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly actually what happened
with me at Seven Shifts where Iused the app for years and I
didn't even it didn't even occurto me that there'd be a
business behind it until theopportunity was presented to me.
So you're right, yeah, we don'teven think about the business
behind the app.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (02:56):
Yeah, no, you don't, and you don't realize
all of the things that go intothat.
And really, in tech, yourprimary goal is, when someone
signs up, to keep them right.
That's what you want to do isto keep them there, because it's
really easy to be like, oh, Idon't use this, unsubscribe or
whatever it is right.
And it's the keeping them thereand then the making them happy
(03:18):
and delighted and everything.
And that's really where yourstrengths are.
Katie Snow (03:23):
Exactly.
Yeah, you don't think about itwhen you cancel your Spotify
subscription or your Netflixsubscription, that there's
someone behind the scenes goingno, we worked so hard for this.
But yeah, that's the world thatI live in.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (03:37):
into the tech world.
You kind of mentioned that youuse Seven Shifts first.
But how did you get where youare?
Katie Snow (03:44):
Yeah, that is a bit of an interesting story.
I would say it was divinetiming.
Honestly, I've been working asa restaurant manager for several
years and it was just wearingon me.
Honestly, Mackenzie like I, oranyone who's worked in
restaurants, knows that first ofall, once you're bit by that
restaurant buck, it's reallyhard to make an exit.
But also the life is just, it'shard.
(04:05):
You're not always rewardedreally generously on a financial
front.
For one, it's not lucrative inthat way.
I was working really long hours.
At this point I had two kidsand I'm trying to build my life
with my family and my kids andmy husband around this schedule.
That was just really hard tomanage.
Really long days, really latenights, unpredictability, like
if I was working at therestaurant and one of my the
(04:26):
school, called and my you know,my son was sick.
I'm like well, like I had tofind a way to go get him.
But how, if I'm the only one atthe restaurant, like you
couldn't just leave?
And I found that it was, eventhough the family that I worked
for they were incrediblysupportive.
Honestly, I think they affordedme more flexibility and grace
than most restaurant operatorswould, but it was just so hard
(04:48):
and I was struggling, strugglingfinancially, personally.
Everything was really hard, andso I was looking for an exit
and it seemed like every doorthat I was approaching was
closing.
So a friend of mine who had acontact that worked at seven
shifts and knew that I was justlooking for something, I was
(05:09):
just looking for an out, Um.
So, hey, I have a friend thatworks at this company.
It's a tech company, it'scalled Seven Shifts.
I don't really know what itdoes, but this seems like a role
that could be a fit for you.
I'm like Seven Shifts.
And that was that moment whereI'm like oh, there's a business
behind this app that I interactwith every day, every day.
And it seems, seems crazy, but,um, I ended up.
It was just sort of like theperfect combination of events
(05:32):
that ended up landing me thisrole at seven shifts.
Um, so I started there as acustomer support rep.
I was like slinging phone callsand live chats.
I was on the front lines, um,and all of a sudden, things just
really started to fall intoplace for me.
Really, I was being recognizedfor my strengths.
I was being recognized for myability to solve problems and
(05:52):
the way that I could handlethese customer escalations and
things like that, and it waslike, oh my gosh, this is what
I've been training for.
All of these doors have beenclosed on me because I was meant
to be here.
This was the role that wasmeant for me.
So I ended up being fortunateenough to be offered several
promotions from the time Ijoined, as a CSR, through like
(06:13):
between customer success andonboarding and leading a
technical team.
And I'm just so, so thankfulfor the leaders at Seven Shifts
that saw something in me.
They saw a fire and they sawtranslatable skills.
And because of like we're goingto talk about the feedback that
they offered and because theywere generous with that, they
helped just they helped me tosee my value again and regain
some level of confidence and Irealized, okay, all of these
(06:34):
things I've been dealing with inthe restaurant space are really
translatable to to tech and tocustomer growth and experience.
So all that to say, that's howI landed where I am today.
Just really great leaders alongthe way and sort of divine
timing, with Seven Shifts, Iwould say.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (06:51):
Yeah, it's really cool that when you look
back at it.
Well, two things I have to say.
First of all, the restaurantbusiness.
There's no other customerservice teacher that's better
than the restaurant industry,because you literally face every
type of of customer serviceinteraction, issue, problem,
(07:14):
delight, whatever it is that youcould face in the restaurant
business.
Right, I feel like that's thebest teacher you could ever have
?
Katie Snow (07:21):
Yes, and because people are there in like, like
in retail, retail you go in andyou want to buy something, you
want to have a good experience.
I mean, you know this fromrunning your store.
Like, people want to have agood shopping experience, but
they're not paying for theshopping experience, they're
paying for the item, whereas ata restaurant you go out for the
experience, right like you're,you want to celebrate something,
(07:41):
or you you had a long day andyou're going out because you
don't want to cook or whateverit is, but like, the experience
is a huge part of it.
So as soon as that experiencestarts to be derailed, even if
it's not your fault as theserver maybe the kitchen's
backed up or maybe you're justout of something like that
wasn't my fault, but I'm the onethat has to look the customer
dead in the eye and try to makethings right with them.
So that, like real time.
(08:02):
Real time experience definitelyhelped to shape me.
It was hard.
I wouldn't love to do it again,but I it was worth it.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (08:12):
Yeah, and the thing too is people are really
passionate about their food andtheir experience, so if they
love it or hate it, you're goingto hear about it.
Right, like there's, you knowit's coming out.
And if there's a problem, youknow.
You talked about problemsolving skills and how you're
recognized for that, because youhad all of that experience and
(08:33):
that's likely when you said allthese other doors were closing
and it was probably veryfrustrating, deflating thinking
I need to move on, but I can't.
And just at that time, herecomes this role.
Katie Snow (08:46):
Right, yes, yeah, and I think people really
underestimate it.
I mean, restaurantprofessionals are not.
It's not a highly regardedposition, right, it's so often
it's something that you just dowhile you're in school or
university or as a young adult,when you're figuring things out,
and that's what I wanted it tobe for me.
But I was having a hard timeproving my value to anyone
(09:08):
because that was really the onlyexperience I had and what I
wanted to say is like if youonly knew you know, like if you
only knew that I had, like, asingle mom with two kids through
university and working thesehours, and if you only knew the
level of like resilience thatI've developed or how good I can
be in these situations.
Like if I could somehow showyou that I know you'd see my
value.
But it was.
(09:28):
It was really hard.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (09:29):
Yeah, so how did things change?
Let's talk about customerservice for a minute.
How did things change when youwere actually face to face with
your customers in the restaurantbusiness?
Then going to tech, wherethey're not actually I mean they
might be on a phone call butthey're likely more to be on an
(09:50):
email or a chat message orsomething how did that kind of
shift, like how you were dealtwith them?
Katie Snow (09:58):
Yeah, that's a good question.
You know, until this moment,until you, you almost just
connected some dots for mebecause my early days of Seven
Shifts I joined, there was onlya few of us on the support team
and then I was reporting into,at the time, the director of
support.
It was phenomenal.
Anyway, the escalations wouldcome in, really angry customers
(10:21):
frustrated with technical issuesor who knows, like anything
under the sun that they'refrustrated with.
They'd come into us and I waslike eager to talk to them
because it felt so easy.
And there were others on theteam that was like I don't want
to, I don't have to email backand forth with this person
because, like they're upset orthere's no way.
I'm calling this person and Ican remember being like put me
in, coach, like this is yeah, itfelt so easy, um, to not have
(10:43):
to be there the moment.
Like if someone sends you afrustrating email, you've got
time, you can write it andrewrite it and you can think
about it, whereas on the spotyou go to check on a table and
they're like explosive.
You have to react quickly.
You better know how to movequick.
So I would say, really I justfelt like it was a breath of
fresh air to be able to sitbehind a computer or behind a
(11:03):
phone.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (11:16):
No-transcript yeah, that's really cool and I
think too, like you say, it doesgive you time, because if
someone is upset at not younecessarily in the restaurant,
but they're taking it on youbecause you're the person in
front of them versus an emailthat you can literally sit back
(11:39):
and be like, okay, let me get inthis person's head, like what
are they actually upset about?
Or what?
How did this, how can Iempathize with them?
Right?
Um it, it does give you thatability to to kind of craft more
of a response.
Right, then, just be off of thetop of your head.
I do.
I'm a strong believer thatcustomer service is customer
(12:00):
service, right, but there'sdefinitely different scenarios,
like if you can handle a badsituation in the restaurant, you
can handle it in tech, you canhandle it on my clothing store,
right.
Katie Snow (12:11):
Yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (12:11):
Skills, but it's definitely different,
different ways of doing it,because it's different, similar
situations, but really adifferent environment.
Yeah, adaptable.
Right, you have to be adaptableto that new.
Yeah, it's a very translatable,very translatable skill.
Katie Snow (12:33):
That's why they say even like um.
I don't know if this stillstands today, but I can recall a
time not too long ago whenpeople said if someone has
Mcdonald's experience on theirresume, like you know, they've
been through the thick of it,like it well, it equips them
well for their life ofemployment.
And I think you could say thesame about restaurant experience
.
Like someone that's and I thinkthat's part of the reason that
(12:53):
at Seven Shifts and also at Wisk.
AI, we have a preference forhiring people who have worked in
the restaurant industry and itworks out really well because,
like nine times out of 10,they're just incredibly hard
workers, because it's like itfeels like this luxury to work
in tech after working in therestaurant industry.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (13:12):
Yeah, and you're not working until two in
the morning or every Saturday Iget to take a weekend.
Yeah, that's the thing.
But that also goes back towhere you said at the beginning
you were looking for really moretime with your family and the
ability to have some flexibility, and that is.
One great thing about tech isthat you do that right, you're
(13:34):
not working on a saturday nightusually.
Um, sometimes there's thingsthat happen, I guess, but in the
restaurant business youdefinitely were.
So I think that career changeand I know you so I know how
awesome you are at customerservice and support but that
career change just seemed to fityou so well, like I think you
(13:56):
were made for that tech spacereally.
Katie Snow (13:59):
Thank you, I like to think so.
It does feel like a really goodfit really good fit.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (14:09):
Yeah for sure .
Let's talk a little bit.
We mentioned it, we weren'teven going to talk about this.
But I want to talk a little bitabout onboarding because I
think, like you said and I saidto him, like people don't know
what happens behind the scenes.
So do you want to just give alittle bit, and I think we'll
talk to you about how that cantranslate to other businesses,
but don't just give kind of alittle bit.
What is onboarding and what doyou mean when you say you're
(14:31):
onboarding customers?
Katie Snow (14:34):
Sure, yeah.
So onboarding maybe.
I'll just speak to Wisk inparticular and what onboarding
looks like for us.
So Wisk is an inventorymanagement solution for bar and
restaurants and, as you canimagine, inventory is a really
heavy.
It's a heavy lift.
It's really important, itreally impacts your bottom line,
helps you to understand whereyour money's going, what kind of
(14:59):
stock you've got on hand, whereyour needs are and also just
whether or not you're reachingyour goals and staying within
your margins.
But all that to say,implementing a new inventory
management system is not easyand basically what we do at Wisk
when a new customer comes to usand they go through the sales
(15:20):
process and they decide, yep, Iwant to try Wisk as a solution,
then what they're going to do isthey're going to be passed on
to a customer success managerand they're going to do their
onboarding.
So they're going to do akickoff call and they're going
to say why are you here?
What is it you're strugglingwith?
Do you need to see a variancereporter?
What is it that you need to seein order to help you get a
better handle on your businessoperations, kind of understand
their goals, who thestakeholders are, and then from
(15:41):
there we're going to help themto set a timeline and a plan for
implementation.
So when do you actually want toget to this point?
What's your capacity like rightnow?
If I'm talking to a restaurantand it's like if it's the middle
of July and their patio is openand they've got a summer
feature menu and they're ahotspot in the summer, that's
probably when they're workingthe hardest all year.
It's probably not the best timeto implement an inventory
(16:03):
management solution where youhave to go and you have to input
every item that exists in yourrestaurant.
But we're going to say what'syour capacity like?
Who do you have on your team?
Who can be responsible forthese things that we need?
And then from there we're goingto go about basically, they
take the Wisk app on their phone, they go into their beer cage
in the back, they're going tostart with all their drinks and
they're just going to scan allthose barcodes.
They're going to start buildingtheir inventory list from there.
(16:26):
So what we're doing from anonboarding point is giving them
homework.
We're saying, okay, go do thisand then come back to us and
we're going to walk you throughwhat's next, instead of giving
them this long laundry list ofthings they have to do before
they see value.
We're just really walking armswith them and saying we want to
help you see value.
We want you to get up andrunning and see the value.
So you stay with us.
So we're going to walk youthrough how to do it.
So that's really whatonboarding is.
It's like here's your homework,go scan your bottles, Let me
(16:47):
know.
When you're done we'll meetagain and then we're giving them
the next thing okay, send usyour recipes so we can connect
things from your point of saleto the ingredients that we know
you have in house and we canstart tracking the cost of your
plates and what you're using.
So I think that pretty muchcovers it.
Basically, we're working withthem until they've got their
wheels off the ground, they havean understanding of how to use
(17:08):
the tool, train their team onhow to use the tool and once
they see that first value, thenwe're saying, okay, come back
and let me know if you'rerunning into any struggles, but
I think your team is ready tocontinue to manage this on your
own.
I'll check in with you in maybethree months or whatever that
cadence looks like with thatparticular customer.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (17:26):
Yeah, I think I'm a huge believer on systems
and implementing systems to helpyou, and especially now with
technology, to think that an appor a computer system or
whatever it is can do all thisfor you.
Like imagine before they wereliterally just figuring this out
with a pen and paper, or maybelike their margins, maybe not
(17:47):
even really figuring it out,right, yeah, or like a huge
issue is guessing.
Katie Snow (17:52):
Yeah, a huge issue is like sometimes they feel like
those liquor bottles have legs.
They're like there's no way wewent through 24 bottles of this
liquor, like in the point ofsale it only says that we use
this much, you know.
So we're helping to see wherethat variance is, where you know
, are we overpouring?
Are we using an expensive vodkain a cocktail that we should be
using the well, vodka?
Like helping them to see thosetrends.
(18:13):
And that's a real experiencethat actually happened this week
where the customer was likethis doesn't make sense.
Like I did inventory and thenwe have our point of sale
telling us we use this muchvodka.
What's going on?
And it was like, well, theirbartender was knowingly or
unknowingly, who knows, but theywere substituting the wrong
vodka.
That costs the restaurant a lotof money because that cocktail
is priced based on what the costof the ingredients is right, so
(18:36):
that's just crushing theirmargins.
Yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (18:40):
Okay.
So I think there's two lessonshere.
The first lesson is that anysystem that you're having, or
that if you're looking for asystem, check with them if they
have an onboarding program,because it's going to make you a
lot more successful with the,with the system, right.
But also now you can explain tothat person no, this is what's
(19:02):
happening, right.
And second of all, um, really,how important it is to know your
numbers and know yourfinancials, because I think for
a lot of people, you kind ofjust get rolling in your
business and you're like, yep,this is the price, everything is
good, and you don't actuallyever monitor that.
And there are ways to tomonitor it.
(19:25):
Like, that's such a cool thing.
I'm not in the restaurantbusiness, but I think if you are
and you're listening, youbetter give Katie not Katie
specifically, but give her acheckout.
Yeah, exactly, but it's true.
And the whole onboarding, it'sreally to set the customer up
for success, isn't it?
Katie Snow (19:46):
It is.
We want to find those quickwins for you so you can see what
kind of impact it's going tohave in your business, or maybe
that it's not going to work inyour business, because the
reality is sometimes that's howit works too.
Is you think it's going to bethe perfect fit and you start
implementing and say, oh okay,like our point of sale is set up
this way, this is our currentprocess and we're not willing to
change this.
And we can help you figure thatout sooner.
(20:06):
So you don't pay for thesoftware for 18 months, thinking
why am I not getting value?
But let's work together.
We're on the same team theonboarding manager and the
customer are on the same team.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (20:18):
Yeah, that's great, and I think, too, this is
translatable to lots ofdifferent businesses.
When you're just talking aboutcustomer onboarding, but, like I
say, it's working with yourcustomers, making sure that
everything's going reallysmoothly in their life or
whatever.
It is right.
Even me in my clothing storemaybe that quote unquote
onboarding was helping someonefind you know what are you
(20:41):
looking for oh, dress for awedding and helping find
something bringing themalternatives.
I mean, they're not necessarilyonboarding into a system, but
it's onboarding them into yourbusiness, which I think
translate kind of across a lotof different environments for
sure.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, feedback.
I really am excited to talk toyou about feedback.
(21:03):
I will just put this out thereFeedback was never one of my
strong suits as an entrepreneur.
I always gave feedback, positivefeedback.
I really grew that because it'sreally easy to tell somebody
you did a fantastic job, the wayyou handled that situation was
(21:24):
amazing, whatever, and we'regoing to talk about this a
little bit.
But giving negative feedbackwas never one of my strong suits
.
So I'm really excited to talkto you about this and maybe gain
some skills myself on feedback.
But let's just start first ofall, why is delivering feedback
(21:45):
so important and essential?
Really, not just important, butessential.
Katie Snow (21:49):
Yeah, um.
So I think feedback isimportant for everyone.
I think it's a foundation oftrust for one.
If you're giving and receivingfeedback with someone, typically
you're going to feel reallycomfortable, knowing, like,
where you stand with them,whether that's positive,
specific praise or constructivefeedback.
Um, but particularly as aleader, I think one of your key
objectives is to develop people.
(22:10):
A rising tide raises all boats,so you want to be continuously
elevating those around you.
So, as a leader especially, youhave this responsibility to
those around you and most people, I think we can assume desire
to do good and to reach somemark of success.
Generally speaking and we know,trust is the foundation of these
strong relationships, and inorder to build trust, you have
(22:31):
to show that you care enoughabout the other person to put
their best interest over yourown momentary discomfort.
So if we're failing to deliverfeedback, it's going to cost
that other person.
It could cost them anything.
It could cost them their job,their relationship, maybe a
promotion or a milestone.
It could cost them a long listof things, but it's almost
(22:53):
always going to cost them morethan the slight discomfort that
it's going to cost you.
So I think for that reason,giving constructive feedback
specifically, is just reallyimportant in order to develop
that trust and respect for youas a leader.
And I think we all haveshortcomings, right like we all
fall short.
(23:13):
But if someone, specifically aleader, is noticing this
shortcoming or something you'redoing that's negatively
impacting your growth or yourrelationships and they're not
willing to tell you about it,then you can be sure they care
more about themselves than theycare about you.
They care more about what youliked than helping you to grow.
So, um, ultimately, yeah,ultimately, trust builds trust.
(23:34):
We know that the foundation ofa strong team is trust, um, both
at their leader and around them.
So, I think, if you have reallystrong trust, if you have, if
you have found a foundation oftrust and respect from your team
(23:56):
, then it results in improvedbuy-in, improved collaboration
and better results all around.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (24:03):
And this is one of the things we're just
working on right now is that itdoesn't matter who's on your
team, how smart they are, theireducational background,
experiences, whatever.
If that team doesn't have thattrust with each other and with
(24:24):
you as the leader, there's justgoing to be issues.
So I love that you talked aboutthat, because I think that is
the best way to get your teamgoing in the direction you want
them to go right.
And individuals, of course,which build your team.
But I agree that trust if it'snot there, you're just going to
have problems from the get-go100%.
(24:45):
Yeah, delivering feedback.
What's the best way to do it?
I don't know if it's you're theexpert here, so you tell us.
But I know that some people arelike, oh, you should do it in a
group, you should do itone-on-one, you should have um,
you know, every, every so often,you need to have a meeting for
(25:05):
feedback, like what reallyreally is.
I mean, I don't know if there'sone way, but what is the best
way to deliver feedback?
Katie Snow (25:14):
So good question.
I don't think that there is oneway set in stone.
I think it's yourresponsibility as a leader
especially, to know your peopleand know what their preferences
are, and also just to be human,like we don't have to make it
such a big thing, that it's likeI'm going into this feedback
conversation and I have toexecute in this way.
It's bringing actually thathumanity and humility with you.
(25:36):
So in terms of like the best,the best method or like the best
medium for delivering it, rightnow, I mean, I work in a remote
world, so the closest I get toface to face is through like a
Google meet.
But I like just to ask theother person if you have
feedback for them.
Typically, if I have a new teammember join my team, I'll ask
(25:57):
them that in their first coupleof weeks how do you like to
receive feedback?
Because people process thingsdifferently.
Some people prefer to get it inwriting so that they can digest
, they can read it a couple oftimes, then we can meet and they
can ask questions.
Maybe they're like aparticularly emotional person
and, let's face it, people don'twant to cry in front of their
boss.
So maybe that, just if theyknow that about themselves, the
(26:17):
networks.
Maybe they prefer face-to-faceso that we can talk through it.
I think that the biggest thingis to find know your people,
know what they like and whattheir preferences are, and, if
you're not sure, just to ask andsaying something like I've got
some feedback I want to sharewith you and I'm hope, I'm
hoping that I can, um, that itwill provide value for you.
That will help you because now,at good time, if they say yes,
(26:39):
like sure, face-to-face better,or do you want me to type it out
, like just ask, yeah, the pointis you're just getting the
feedback to them.
It doesn't really matter howit's delivered.
But then, when it actually comestime to deliver that feedback,
I think bringing that humanitywith us as well, and
acknowledging that I've been ina situation, on both ends of
giving and receiving feedback,where emotion has been really
high, and one of the best thingsthat one of my leaders ever did
(27:01):
for me was I was having a toughconversation with him and I was
getting really emotional, andbecause I was getting emotional,
I was spending more timefocusing on what my face looked
like and whether you could tellI was turning red and I was
teary.
Then I was actually invested inthe conversation and he had
said to me do you want to justturn our videos off?
And it was like he just gave methat integrity.
He let me keep my integrityintact.
(27:21):
We turned our videos off.
Then I could just like crythrough the conversation.
I didn't have to worry.
But he truly held space.
He didn't rush me off the call,he didn't.
He didn't try to say nicethings to make me stop crying.
And the biggest lesson that Itook away from that was like I
got to leave that conversationwith my integrity intact.
I got to actually invest in theconversation because I wasn't
(27:42):
worried about the you know himseeing me cry and what I looked
like in this total ugly state.
But also he just held the spaceand I've brought that lesson
with me as a leader and I'vetried so hard to pay it forward
and acknowledge that when Ideliver feedback, the idea is to
help the other person.
Sometimes they're going to cry,sometimes they're going to be
(28:03):
upset.
It's not up to me to controltheir reaction.
It's up to me to be as human aspossible and to truly hold
space.
I think holding space is abuzzword right now.
We hold space for this and thatfor everything.
But what that means in thecontext of giving feedback is
that you're allowing that personto receive it and to digest it
however works for them, andyou're not rushing them off the
(28:25):
call.
You're not trying to then, youknow, toss in some praise or
it's okay, or don't cry or like,don't take it personally, no,
just hold the space.
And if it's an in-personsetting I had heard one time on
another podcast, like if you'regonna be meeting someone in
person, you know it's gonna beemotional Make sure there's a
bottle of water, make surethere's a bottle of water or
something to take a sip ofnearby, because you can hand
(28:47):
someone a Kleenex.
Sure, like.
The last thing I want to do isblow my runny nose in front of
someone who's deliveringfeedback and I'm already feeling
insecure but, like taking a sipof water and a moment to
breathe and just something to dowith your hands can go a long
way.
So just thinking about thosethings that allow the other
person to just feel comfortable,to just feel comfortable.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (29:08):
Yeah, I think that's really great advice.
And the thing too is, you don'tknow how they're going to react
, so, and they're going to reacthow they react, like there's
nothing you can do about that,right?
I've had feedback that wasn'teven that negative and I got
emotional about it.
And then it was like in my ownhead thinking why am I getting
so emotional about like thisisn't bad?
(29:30):
Why am I getting so like workedup about it, right?
So we've all been there.
Okay, I feel like for myself forsure, like I said before,
giving positive feedback is awhole heck of a lot easier than
having to give someone negativeor maybe not so great feedback,
than having to give someonenegative or maybe not so great
(29:52):
feedback.
So what are some tips or what'ssome some good ways to deliver
that feedback?
And I mean, if it's negative,it's negative.
I don't want to say you have tolike make it less negative, but
just what are some tips to kindof ease that, I guess, for the
for you giving it and maybe forreceiving it too?
Katie Snow (30:09):
I guess, for you giving it and maybe for
receiving it too, yeah, so forgiving it.
I think the most importantthing we kind of already chatted
about was just making surethere is a foundation of trust,
and there's a book calledRadical Candor by Kim Scott that
I live and die by.
She is the queen of how to Well, radical candor is defined as
caring personally whilechallenging directly.
So if the people you're leadingknow that you care personally
(30:31):
about them, you can challengethem directly and it doesn't
seem so disastrous.
They know that you have theirbest interest in mind and it's
not a threat.
And so you've used the word acouple of times now negative
feedback, and I think we have toreframe to just constructive,
which is, I mean, same same,same but different, right.
It doesn't have to reframe tojust constructive, which is, I
mean, same same, same butdifferent, right.
(30:53):
It doesn't have to be a badthing, it can actually be a good
thing, it's just constructive.
So if they, if you're, if thepeople around you, know that you
care really deeply about themand that your intention is to
help them it's that's the firststep it's going to be received a
lot better.
I have an example of a piece offeedback I had to deliver one
time.
It was possibly the hardestfeedback I've ever had to
(31:13):
deliver and basically the shortof it is brought someone new
onto a team I was leading and hejust rubbed people the wrong
way.
They just didn't like him.
And at first the feedback wascoming into me and I'm like you
guys, like fine, you don't haveto be friends with this person
like, you just have to, we'vegot to figure this out, we've
got to figure out how you canwork together.
(31:34):
But the feedback just keptrolling in and rolling in and
I'm like okay, this is now justa distraction and this is a
waste of time.
So I was trying to get them togive this feedback directly.
I'm like, if something that hesays rubs you the wrong way,
tell him.
But it was so personal.
Mackenzie was like the feedbackwas literally just I don't like
you, and that is the hardest.
It's very personal.
(31:55):
And so this leads me to well,two things.
One, we never want to startfeedback by saying don't take it
personally, because it ispersonal.
It's always personal, right,it's not a personal attack, but
it is personal.
Um, but anyways, I ended up.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (32:11):
It's I ended up saying like pardon, no, it's
just you as yourself.
When someone says something toyou, even if they're trying to
help you, your first kind ofthing is to take offense to it
because it's like I didn't do itright or good enough or
whatever it is.
And that's you personally, soit's understandable for sure.
Katie Snow (32:32):
Yeah.
So with this particular personI ended up like I went to work
and trying to figure out likehow can I?
give basically basically m, sobut.
But I'm like, okay, how can Igo in for the kill?
I gotta rip the band-aid offbecause this guy's gonna
self-sabotage.
Basically because at the end ofthe day, if you can't
(32:54):
collaborate with your team likeit is going to be an issue, it's
going to impact your success inthe role.
So I I mustered up the courage.
I just asked him if we couldchat.
I said I've got some toughfeedback to deliver to you and
it's going to feel reallypersonal.
Is this an okay time?
And he's like yeah for sure.
And I basically said like youknow, your performance is really
(33:16):
good.
There's no concerns on thatfront.
And I, I think I did say also,this feedback is hard for me to
give to you and you, you knowyou never want to make it about
yourself during feedback, but Idid acknowledge because I was
like visibly uncomfortable.
So I wanted him to know thereason that I look so
uncomfortable is because I carethat this lands the right way
(33:36):
and it's just hard.
So I hope that it lands theright way and we can chat
through it if it doesn't.
But I basically just said likeI think it's really important
that you know how you're beingperceived by the team, and I
shared some examples of how hetypically engaged a lot when he
wanted to showcase a win, but hedidn't engage a lot when
another team member shared a winor he didn't celebrate others a
lot and it just kind of madehim look arrogant.
(33:56):
And I'm like to be honest, likethe feedback is just that, like
you're not an enjoyable personto work with.
That's all there is to it.
And the reason this matters isbecause, like it's going to
stunt your growth, because a lotof the successes we have as a
team come from strongcollaboration.
You're going to lean on yourteammates for support on things.
And then I just said, did do youknow you're being perceived
this way?
And he was like no, I was likeI didn't think so.
(34:20):
Like I know, I know your heart,like I think I think you just
want to do a good job and Ithink it's okay for others, for
you, to want others around youto know you do a good job.
That's human nature.
I also want praise and I wantpeople to tell me I'm doing a
good job.
So, like, seriously, no harm,no foul, but what are we going
to do about it?
And he was like, yeah, likewhat can we do about it?
And Mackenzie, it was like thenext.
(34:42):
I feel like within a week it wasresolved and there were
relationships, sort of buddingon the team, and things were
good.
And looking back, like I'm so,I'm so thankful that I put
myself in that uncomfortableposition for 15, 20 minutes, so
so I didn't have to move themout of the business because
that's what it was going toresult in.
It was going to result in ahuge loss for him, and it didn't
have to, because he just neededto know someone needed to tell
(35:04):
him hey, we kind of think you'rea jerk and we don't like
working with you.
And so we saw like an immediateturnaround.
And it turns out he is a superlikable person.
He was just trying really hardto make his mark in the business
and it was going to cost himhis job or something to that
effect.
But, um, he apologized to theteam.
He came forward and was, likeyou know, explained his, the way
that he thought he was beingperceived and what he was, you
(35:26):
know, trying to do within theteam.
Um, and from there on out,people felt a little bit more
comfortable and as a leader, Igained the respect of the team
that I wasn't going to shy awayfrom it just because they
couldn't clearly articulate Um.
But I built that trust and youknow what?
It made it easier to go toother people on the team with
feedback, cause they're likewell, she cares, right, like
(35:49):
she's going to tell me she'sgoing to tell me if something's
off.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (35:51):
So, yeah, that's awesome and I I like the
way you did that by prefacing it.
Like, this is a really hardconversation for me to have with
you, because if you're visiblyawkward or uncomfortable, like
they're going to pick up on thattoo, and you know like you
don't want it to go sidewaysright from the beginning.
So I think that was a reallygood approach.
Um, feedback is something toothat I've been in roles where
(36:18):
there's just like crickets andyou have no clue what you're
doing or how you're doing.
So what happens when you don'tgive feedback?
Like, what detriments do yousee from that when you don't
receive feedback?
Yeah, like, so if you're um, if, or if you're the owner of the
business and you don't, you'renot giving your staff feedback
(36:40):
or your team feedback, um, like,what can, what can go south for
you?
Katie Snow (36:45):
Right, I think you just sort of lose control over
growth If you aren't givingfeedback.
People are probably flounderinga little bit, even if they
don't show it.
They may not be clear in whichof their behaviors are helping
them versus what you're harmingthem.
And there's always somethinglike you can, you know, think of
any person you've ever workedwith.
There's always something youcan point out that you liked
about working with them andsomething that you didn't love.
(37:06):
And if we don't point out thosethings that we don't love or
that aren't beneficial, or evenquirks, like everyone has blind
spots, and if we're not pointingthose out, they're going to
perpetuate because they justdon't know, right?
So I think you just losecontrol over, like, the
elevation of your business Ifyou're not regularly giving
feedback.
And as a business owner, Iwould care about the amount of
time wasted by people trying tofigure out you know what they're
(37:28):
doing well and what they're notdoing well, cause if you're not
giving them feedback, youbetter believe like they're
thinking about it.
Like am I doing okay?
Am I performing okay?
Where do I stand with thisperson?
And those are man hours thatyou don't want to want to be
wasted.
So why not just cut to thechase and and be really clear,
to really clear about um, aboutwhere people stand with you.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (37:53):
It's easier for everybody.
Yeah, I agree, and, like yousaid, where if you didn't have
that difficult conversation withthat one team member, you
likely would have had to let himgo essentially and just think
about that having to let someonego and hire someone new and
bring them on and train them, doall of that that's a heck of a
lot worse.
To me, more work than justhaving that conversation.
Katie Snow (38:10):
Right, yes, and the negative impact that that has on
the team.
So, as you're answering thequestion better than I am, that
is the negative effect.
If you don't do it and you haveto move someone out of the
business, then there's changemanagement.
Then other people are shakingin their shoes for the next
three weeks trying to recoverand you know there's always
little instances cropping upreminding you that this person
(38:44):
was let go and there's probablycapacity issues in the interim.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (38:47):
While you fill the role, your career,
whether it's customer service orfeedback or whatever it is is
there a most important lessonthat you think you learned that
you want to share with the ?
Katie Snow (39:06):
I think, don't be ruinously empathetic.
I think, as a leader, we have,as a human, we have a tendency
to want to be liked, and beingliked and being respected are
two different things.
So, when you're faced with abusiness decision whether that's
around giving feedback,receiving feedback, um, really
(39:28):
anything in terms ofimplementation or change
management in the business whenyou're making decisions, you
need to think am I behaving in away that caters to me being
liked, or maybe being respectedand giving feedback, for example
, or even sometimes movingsomeone out of the business,
you're not going to be liked inthe short term.
I've also been in the positionwhere I've had to let someone go
(39:48):
who the team really, reallyloved but who was, at the end of
the day, sandbagging the team,and in the short term, they did
not like me for that.
But in the longterm, evenpeople who were extremely upset
about it in the beginning and Ihad always tried to create an
environment where they couldcome to me, come tell me, like,
(40:09):
if you're mad about it, let'slike, tell me.
You know we have to create thatopen dialogue and I um, I can
remember people coming, peoplebeing really upset about it and
then coming back to me a coupleof weeks later and saying I have
really respect that decision,like I see it now.
Now I see, because you knowI've had to pick up their email
threads or I've had to do this,and like it's clear.
So just really thinking aboutthe difference between being
liked and being respected as aleader.
And then the other thing Ithink, just from like my whole,
(40:29):
like from the onset of meworking in the restaurant
industry to where I am today,something that I would leave
listeners with is just that,like your grit is never wasted,
I definitely felt like I wasoverworked and under-recognized
and underpaid for so long and Ithought like I lost all
confidence.
Like do I have value to offersomeone?
And then, when I joined sevenshifts, it was like the bamboo
(40:51):
effect.
It's like my growth at 10 X, Iwas afforded these opportunities
that in the moment, I canremember coming home to my
husband and saying like I don'tdeserve this, like how have I
been offered this?
And it was like no, no, this islike finally, repayment for the
hard work that you've put it,like you've done the hours, like
you've you've put in the timeto learn these skills and to to
develop this type of value andnow it's just being recognized.
(41:11):
So if you are working reallyhard and you're not getting
where you want to go, um, Ithink you know, if you're not
planted in the right soil you'renot going to thrive, right?
You just have to find that youhave to be planted in the right
soil.
The grit is not wasted.
So keep working hard, but alsokeep looking for that
environment where you can havethat growth and that opportunity
(41:32):
to showcase all the hard workyou've put in.
So the grit's never wasted.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:36):
I love that advice and I agree.
Nothing substitutes that hardwork and perseverance, right?
Nothing.
Awesome, atie, thank you somuch for being on.
I know people probably want toknow a little bit more too, and
I know you have a really greatLinkedIn page, so is that the
best place for them to find youif they want to learn more or
(41:57):
reach out?
Katie Snow (41:59):
Yeah, definitely.
I would be really happy toconnect or to chat or book
coffee with anyone that wants toreach out and chat more about
anything leadership, mentorship,feedback, especially so you can
find me on LinkedIn, for sure.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (42:12):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, atie, forbeing on.
I had such a blast this timejust flew by.
So thank you very much foreveryone listening.
We'll see you on the nextepisode.
Thanks for listening to Winning.
Be sure to subscribe to get allof our new episodes.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
(42:33):
media and leave a rating andreview wherever you listen to
Winning.
To catch all of the latest fromus, you can follow Winning
Podcast on Instagram at winningunderscore podcast, facebook at
Winning Podcast, and on Twitterat winning pod.
Winning was created and isproduced by me, mackenzie
(42:53):
Kilshaw Music, created by SummerFurby, editing by Seth
Armstrong.
Special thanks to Shauna Fosterfor voicing our opening and, of
course, a huge thank you tothis episode's guest.
Thanks again for listening andI'll see you on the next episode
.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.