January 16, 2024 • 52 mins
Imagine having the power to inspire, influence, and motivate your team through every word you utter and every action you make. How much more successful could your business be? Renowned communication expert, former Fortune 500 corporate communications executive, and Emmy-nominated journalist Gary Ross joins Mackenzie to help you unleash this potential. With Gary, we're unveiling the significant role communication plays in business success, dissecting the art of effective dialogue, and diving straight into the heart of the matter.
Communication is more than just words. It's the lifeline of any successful business, threading through every interaction, decision, and strategy. We explored this not just theoretically but practically—discussing professional writing, leading complex conversations, and the subtle actions that tell a story louder than words. Gary doesn’t hold back, sharing invaluable lessons from his vast experience to help you understand your audience, deliver your message with relevance and timing, and connect on an authentic, personable level.
But how does this translate to your day-to-day business? We take a deep look at the real-world impact of effective communication on productivity, employee turnover, and company value. Gary even shares personal anecdotes, notably being passed over for a promotion until he embraced authentic communication with a company president. He emphasizes the need to be genuine, offering insight on navigating career advancement and initiating difficult conversations. We even get a glimpse of his e-learning courses on communication, promising to take your newly acquired knowledge to the next level. Join us in this exploration of communication's power and reinvent your business success story.
Mackenzie Kilshaw Co. offers comprehensive business coaching, and consulting tailored to your needs.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shauna Foster (00:06):
Winning is your guide to making it in business.
Join our award-winning host andentrepreneur, Mackenzie Kilshaw
, and special guests in casualconversations that will educate
and inspire you on your businessjourney.
Winning will help you learn thehard lessons the easy way, with
guidance from celebratedentrepreneurs and business
(00:26):
leaders.
It's fun, it's informative,it's winning Hello welcome to
Winning.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (00:32):
I am your host, Mackenzie Kilshaw, and
today's guest is Gary Ross.
Hi, Gary, hey, Mackenzie,thanks for having me.
Yeah, thanks for being on.
I was just saying before Istarted recording I'm so pumped
to have Gary on.
Gary works with everyone fromC-suite to the production line
to be a better communicatorwe're talking all about
communication today, and socommunication so they can lead
(00:53):
and inspire others, increaseproductivity and advance their
careers.
He is a former Fortune 500corporate communications
executive.
He's an Emmy nominated which isso cool we have a touch on that
broadcast journalist.
And he also is a currentstadium and arena public
announcer, which is super cooltoo.
So thank you for being on, Gary, I'm really excited to have you
(01:15):
.
Gary Ross (01:15):
Yeah, thanks again.
Thanks for having me lookingforward to talking about
communication and how we canhelp people use communication to
advance their companies,advance their careers, inspire
others, increase productivityall that fun stuff.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (01:30):
I love that and I think you and I are
probably on the same page.
But if you are not a goodcommunicator, or you are not
good at communicating to whoeverit is you need to, things are
not going to go well for you.
Gary Ross (01:43):
Yeah, things will.
Things are definitely will kindof get out of control, because
if we're not communicating, ifwe're not aligning on what it is
that we want to do, if we'renot sure of the job we want our
communication to do, we're justgoing to go out there and say
things willy nilly and thingswill fall where they may.
And that's not goodstrategically, that's not good
(02:07):
tactically, it's not good foranybody.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (02:10):
So yeah, I agree, and I think communication
is one of those things, that itis essential for your success,
but it is often forgotten.
Gary Ross (02:20):
Yeah, well, it's forgotten.
But I think also sometimespeople have a nagging sense that
they need to do better at itand they're not sure how, and
that's one of the things that Ihelp people with is to drill
down into some of what some ofthose issues might be and then
to develop some tools, and alsoI have some tips for people in
various situations on how tocommunicate better, and a lot of
(02:43):
it also goes toward developingconfidence as well.
Sometimes people aren't surewhat to say, or how to say it,
or what they're allowed to say,what they feel that they're
supposed to say, all thosethings, and that can get in the
way as well.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (02:58):
Yeah, for sure, we are going to get all
into communication, but I wantedto start back.
I gave a little bit of a bioabout you, but do you want to
just tell our audience kind ofwho you are and give us some
insight into some of those Emmynominated journalists?
You're an announcer at arenas.
That's super cool.
So this is an idea of who youare and we'll go from there.
Gary Ross (03:19):
Yeah, so I got out of school as a journalist, majored
in journalism and got into TVand radio and, yeah, I was
nominated for an Emmy for somework I did in Charleston, South
Carolina, where I was aninvestigative reporter.
I also did some anchoring there,did some radio anchoring and
reporting in the New York Cityarea as well, and then it was a
(03:42):
heck of a lot of fun and I had agreat time doing it but didn't
really see it necessarily as thecareer for me.
So I got into communicationsand eventually wound up running
communication departments atthree large companies here in
the Chicago area where I'm based.
Those companies were CDW, HyattHotels and Fortune Brands and
(04:02):
after that had a chance to dosomething on my own which I
always wanted to do and havebeen consulting and training and
coaching and focused oninternal communication.
When internal communication andworkplace communication happen
well, then it benefitsindividuals because they're
aligned, they understand howthey fit into the organization
(04:23):
and the organization gets ahappy and engaged workforce.
So it's a win-win for everybodyand I like working with folks
to make a difference on thatfront.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (04:31):
That's awesome.
So did you always see yourselfin this area when you were
younger, or did your journalismcareer start you out with
realizing how importantcommunication is?
Gary Ross (04:43):
Yeah, it's kind of like that.
I mean I started in high schoolactually writing for my high
school newspaper and reallyenjoyed doing it and said, okay,
well, let's go study journalismand I can be a reporter and get
into journalism.
Or I was pretty sure thatwhatever I learned there would
serve me well and whatever Idecided to do and really both
(05:06):
happened I became a journalistand then got out of the daily
news business.
But today, being a journalist,you learn so many skills that
translate into being a greatcommunicator and helping people
be good communicators.
So things like being a quickstudy.
When you're a journalist you'rewalking in the door every day.
(05:27):
You're not sure what you'regoing to be covering that day on
the news.
You've got to be a quick study.
You have to be able to tellstories and position things in a
way that is persuasive topeople.
It's interesting to people beable to distill complicated
information and get that downinto terms that people can
understand quickly on the firstpass.
(05:48):
So all those things that youhave to do as a reporter really
serve you very well in thecorporate world, in the business
world, and again, it's one ofthose areas where people tend to
feel a little less confidentand aren't sure how to go about
improving on that.
That's something I help folkswith.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (06:07):
Yeah, that's awesome and so so you're a
communication expert, really, ifwe're, if we're getting down to
it, Tell us a little bit moreabout your business and how your
expertise of communicationhelps people.
Gary Ross (06:25):
Yeah, so I'm a workplace communication trainer,
so I work with organizations tohelp their people inform and
inspire and influence others,and that can be people within
organizations.
It can be also to communicatewith folks outside the
organization as well, likecustomers or vendors or partners
(06:45):
and those sort of things, andand so for.
For some clients, I partnerwith their learning and
development team and, and, andand I'm included in some of the
courses that they offer aroundthe, around their company.
I come in and do live in persontraining and do live virtual
training.
I also do e-learning as welland I've done some custom
(07:09):
e-learning actually for for someorganizations as well, so for
for topics that they've, thatthey've needed.
So again, that kind of bringsback my TV background too,
because I'm familiar with beingin the studio and writing for
writing for the year and all ofthat stuff.
So that helps produce a lot ofthe, the e-learning pieces as
well.
So there's really a lot ofdifferent ways that people can
(07:31):
can learn about communications.
And then, specifically, some ofthe things I work on are, for
example, clients will come to meand say you know, our people
aren't showing up professionally, they're not writing well,
they're, they're, they're notputting complete sentences
together, believe it or not, andwe need help doing that.
(07:51):
Or or by my folks have, coulduse some help in in leading
difficult conversations, whetherit's people, managers, and and
they're they're team members orleading a client perhaps through
a difficult conversation.
So things like that eliminatingfiller words, helping people
say um, and and like a lot, alot less, and even though I do
(08:13):
it myself, we all, we all do itand it's it's about and I and I
try to have fun with it too.
So I don't, I don't, get up infront of people and say, hey,
you said um 27 times on you, uhit, we, we, we go through it and
and say, okay, here's some ofthe reasons why you might use
filler words and here are someof the things that you can do to
(08:33):
to try to reduce that.
So so items like items likethat.
I have the three number onerules of communication that I
feel are pretty key to tocommunicating, and I've spoken
and talked about that as well.
So I work with organizations onthose, those kinds of topics,
and I've spoken at conferencesabout those kinds of topics as
(08:54):
well and and love to continue towork with with organizations on
that, I know, you know, withwith your audience.
They might be on the on thesmaller side, but really, as as
founders, as entrepreneurspeople are can be so close to a,
a topic, it can be hard forthem to pull back a little bit
(09:14):
and think about their audienceand understand what might
resonate about their story withtheir audience, the people that
they need to inform andinfluence and inspire.
And that's one of the things Ican, I can help people do is to
understand, really dig into whoyour audiences are, how to
understand your audience, how tothink about your audience and
how to think about yourcommunication as a result.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (09:37):
That's so interesting because I was just
watching a Masterclass the otherday about public speaking.
So many people say to me how doyou talk to people, how do you
get up in a room or how do yougo in your podcast and just talk
and you sound like you're soconfident, and I guess it does.
I don't think I'm confident,but I guess it comes down to to
confidence.
But really I love how you saidknowing your audience, cause
(09:59):
that is so true.
If you can connect with youraudience, they are going to
listen to you.
Right, they'll tune out if theydon't connect.
Gary Ross (10:07):
Absolutely, and and so know your audience actually
is one of my three number onerules of communication, and, and
it all comes down tocommunicating the right thing to
the right people at the righttime, in the right way, and
because if you don't, if youmiss any of those elements there
, then your communication iseither going to fall flat or
(10:29):
it'll land in the wrong place,or it'll go out at the wrong
time.
People won't know what, what,what to do with it, and I've
seen a lot of people in business.
They'll go out and they feellike, oh, I need to communicate
something right now, I need acommunication.
But they don't stop to think,well, all right, is this the
best time to be communicating?
And who am I?
Am I the people that I'm goingto be talking to?
Are they even prepared to acton what it is that that I want
(10:50):
to say?
And if they're not, am I usingup too much of their precious
attention on this when I'm goingto need them later on for
something else and keep mypowder dry and and and not get
in front of them with somethingthey really can't do anything
about anyway?
But I'm just going to feelbetter because I'm out there
broadcasting something sounderstanding really about your
(11:12):
audience, what, what motivatesthem?
What do, what do they want fromyou?
What do you want from them andare, again, are they prepared,
are they able to act on what itis that you're that you're
talking about, really thinkingthose things through and then
understanding and then thinkingabout actually this could be a
formal communication or couldjust be going into a
(11:35):
conversation what do you wantyour audience to think, feel and
do as a result of yourcommunication?
Those three things what do youwant them to think, what do you
want them to feel and,ultimately, what do you want
them to do?
A lot of times in ourcommunication we stop with the
think and the feel part.
We say, okay, here's theinformation and I want you to
(11:56):
get psyched about this and thisis so exciting, you're going to
be a part of something terrific.
And then we give them somethingvague that says, so, finish the
year strong, or something likethat.
Then we turn around and peopleturn around like, well, all
right, I'm in, I understand, I'mready to go, what do I do?
And then they turn to theirmanager and the manager says,
well, I don't know.
I saw the same email you did.
(12:16):
I don't really know what to do,and so we have to make sure
we're prescriptive about what itis that we want people to do
after we've made them think andfeel a certain way as a result
of our communication.
So we do that when we get againhave that understanding about
what motivates our audience, whothey are and so forth.
So starting to get into thatdiscipline of thinking about
(12:39):
that and just answering thosefew very simple questions can
really help make you a much moreeffective and confident
communicator.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (12:46):
I totally agree.
So you've talked a couple oftimes about your three rules of
communication and I think we'vetouched on one of them, know
your audience, but do you wantto tell us what are your three
rules and then go through eachone and I know the audience is
one of them?
Gary Ross (13:04):
But let's just go through all of them.
So we did the audience one, socheck.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (13:09):
Yes.
Gary Ross (13:10):
The other one, or one of the other ones, is
everything communicates.
Understanding that everythingcommunicates is not just what
you say and it's not just whatyou do.
Sometimes it's what you don'tsay.
So understanding that, forexample, there may be something
that you feel that you need tocommunicate, but you're not
(13:30):
quite ready.
So you're going to wait a week,and then a week goes by and you
figure, oh no, I just needanother week, and another week
goes by.
Meanwhile, if you put yourselfin the audience shoes, they're
not hearing anything.
That's radio.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (13:43):
Right.
Gary Ross (13:44):
And then.
So if it's kind of a diceysituation, the audience, they're
going to start making up theirown story in their own mind and
it's never as good as the storythat you want to tell or as
accurate as a story you want totell.
So by the time you're actuallygoing out there to communicate,
you're already behind the eightball.
So getting out there andcommunicating, even if you're
(14:08):
not 100% ready, I mean, don't goout there and communicate
things recklessly and so forth,but keep in mind that not
communicating is in factcommunicating.
There are also things that youmay be doing that are actually
acts of communication withoutyou realizing it.
Now give you an example.
I was working with an ITdepartment in an organization a
(14:30):
few years ago and they weregetting ready to.
The leadership of the team wasthinking about some changes to
the department and they didn'twant to communicate it out
anything out to the team justyet, because they were still
working through some things,which is fine and entirely
responsible.
But they didn't realize thatpeople were starting to get a
(14:51):
hint that something was going onand the way they got that hint
and, by the way, this is avirtual team, so it's not like
people could see folks walkingaround the hallway or anything.
What happened was is theleadership team had blocked out
half days and full days formeetings on the online calendar
and people saw they thought,well, wait a minute, why is
(15:12):
everybody all huddled up inthese meetings?
The leadership team didn'trealize they were communicating
just in the fact of schedulingtime with one another on this
visible tool, and they didn'tthink that that created a
communication implication, whichit did.
So what happened was is rumorsagain started to bubble up again
(15:34):
, never as good as what you wantthem.
So they had to.
They had to go back and hurryup and come up with something,
and it was.
We had to help them out with alittle bit.
It was a little bit of a mess.
So, understanding that the, the,the, some of the actions that
you do communicate.
Now there's ways to do that onthe positive side as well.
So, if I'm always a big fan ofthe old MBWA managing by walking
(16:00):
around and we're not all inoffices every day or or at all,
so sometimes that's hard forleaders to do, and just these
days we have to be a little moreintentional about it by getting
on virtual meetings and makingsure we're scheduled into those
and so forth, but visibility asa leader in front of key
audiences, your employees, yourkey customers and so on, just
(16:21):
showing up is an activecommunity that you can use to to
your advantage, especially whenyou're in a leadership position
, and people covet thatattention that that a leader can
give.
So so there's there's that aswell.
So understanding that thateverything communicates is is
(16:42):
hugely powerful and can help youcommunicate in some ways,
either louder or more subtly,depending on what the situation
was.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (16:53):
I love how you said that the visibility of
a leader because I know in pastjobs that I've had before I
became an entrepreneur but hadleaders that didn't attend
meetings or didn't reply to theemail chain or whatever it was.
And, of course, as the employee, your first thought is do they
(17:17):
not care about this?
Are they too busy for us?
Do we not matter?
That's kind of the first thingthat you go to right.
Gary Ross (17:25):
Yeah, because that's an act of communication.
Them not showing up is sendinga message.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (17:30):
Yes, oh, that's so true, so true.
Okay, and what's the third?
Gary Ross (17:35):
The third one is tell them a story, and it goes back
to storytelling.
As I had mentioned earlier,there's something about us as
human beings that in our brainsthat just draws us into stories.
We're programmed to be drawninto them, to be emotionally
attached into them, and eversince cave men days that's how
(17:56):
people have been communicating.
There are tried and truestorytelling formulas,
structures, whatever elements,whatever you want to call them,
that we can use in a businesssetting to give that extra
feeling, that extra emotion inwhat we want to communicate.
(18:17):
So I'm not talking abouteverybody going into a
conference room and sittingaround a campfire, but instead
we you know the sprinklers, firecodes and all that.
That's what we'd sound aboutroad right, right, right, right,
right, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I don't want to do that,but instead of just
communicating dry pieces ofinformation, take a step back
(18:38):
and think about how can Icommunicate this in a more
compelling way that's going toget people to follow along with
me, to take them from thebeginning of something all the
way through a journey that theycan see themselves on and they
can be a part of.
And so how do we do that?
We ask ourselves four questionswhen are we now, where are we
(19:00):
going, how are we going to getthere and what will it look like
when we get there?
And we go ahead and we answereach of those questions,
initially with essentially onesentence, and then, from there,
we think about some supportingthemes behind each of those
(19:20):
sentences, and then we can backthem up with some facts as well,
some proof points.
And if we ask ourselves thosequestions, all right, here I
need to communicate aboutsomething.
Let me think about this in theterms of where are we now, where
are we going, how are we goingto get there and what will it
look like when we get there?
I can organize everything out,and what that does is that gives
(19:44):
me the form of a story.
So I'll give you an example.
Let's say a company, you have abranch office out in the suburbs
and they need to move into thedowntown core to be near
customers.
A company can send out a memoand we've all seen these memos
like this that say the decisionhas been made to move our office
(20:06):
downtown.
This move will be happening onsuch and such a date.
Two days before that you'll bereceiving boxes.
Please put all your belongingsin there.
It will be moved down to thenew office and we need you to
come in on Saturday for a coupleof hours to set up your new
office.
Thank you very much for yourcooperation.
We believe this will help us besuccessful moving forward.
(20:27):
Thank you for your cooperation.
Have a nice day.
Yeah, I've seen dry memos likethat.
Well, instead, let's thinkabout what's exactly going on
here.
This office has to move intothe city to be closer to
customers.
So let's think about those fourquestions.
Where are we now?
We're at our office here in thesuburbs.
We're far from our customers.
The performance of the officeis suffering.
(20:49):
There's something that we needto do about this right now.
So that's where we now.
Where are we going?
We're going to be moving into anew office downtown in the city.
We're going to be closer to ourcustomers.
We believe that this will helpimprove revenue for our office
and help make us a lot morefinancially sustainable moving
(21:11):
forward.
How are we going to get there?
We'll provide all theinformation and materials you
need for your move.
We understand this is going todisrupt some of your commutes.
We'll give you new informationon your commutes and all the new
cool restaurants that will benear downtown and other
amenities in our newneighborhood.
And what will it look like whenwe get there is our last
(21:31):
question.
We will be well positioned tobe close to our customers and
work with them more personally,increase our sales and have a
much more successful futureindividually as well as as an
office.
So when we position somethinglike that in a story, where are
we now?
Where are we going?
How will we get there?
What will it look like when weget there?
(21:53):
We're able to give people abroad structure, a broad
framework, have something forthem to invest in and follow
along with you in doing, and, asleaders, as entrepreneurs,
that's what we need people to dois to follow our vision, follow
along with us.
So when we have four questionsand create a little story, we're
(22:15):
much more able to do that.
We're taking advantage of thehuman brain's predilection to
invest in a story, and thatstructure is an age old
structure.
It's one of many, but you seeit in Shakespeare and Star Wars.
My favorite example is theWizard of Oz.
That's the story structure forthe Wizard of Oz.
(22:37):
Where are we now?
We're stuck in Oz.
Where are we going?
We're off to see the Wizard sohe can get us home.
How are we going to get there?
We're going to follow theyellow brick road and oh, by the
way, we have to get past thewicked witch and the wing
monkeys and all that it's goingto look like when we get there.
There's no place like home.
So that simple formula, we canuse that at work, we could use
(23:00):
it every day at work to bringpeople along with us, and it's
really a terrific tool to have.
And again, as leaders, asentrepreneurs, as people who
want to inspire others, that isa great way to do it.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (23:15):
That is awesome.
I love that analogy.
And when you're talking aboutyour memo versus the first memo
where it's like we're moving,you got to pack your stuff up
and this is the date and thanksVersus.
Hey guys, we have to make somechanges, we need to move.
Because of these reasons,there's going to be some great
things once we make the move,and whatnot?
(23:36):
Not only have you gotten maybeyour team excited about the
change, because we know changeis hard, right, and change is
something that people often getnegative about.
So now they're like oh, this isgoing to be cool, we're going
to be busier at work, we'regoing to have more clients,
we're going to maybe my bonusesgo up.
(23:56):
Right, they start thinkingabout all the positive things
instead of maybe the negativethings.
And also, I think that it willalso reduce the afterthought of
the memo, which would bequestions Well, why are we
moving?
How come we have to move right?
Gary Ross (24:16):
Right.
And then again that personturns to their manager and says
well, how come we have to move?
And the manager says well, Ijust read the same memo you did.
I don't know.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (24:24):
Exactly.
Gary Ross (24:25):
Just put your stuff in the box when it comes and
don't get in trouble.
That's no way to work.
What it also does is you'realso leveling with people,
because in a situation like that, there are going to be people
(24:45):
who aren't going to like thechange that that's going to make
to their commutes, assumingthey have to be in the office
several times.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (24:53):
Further yeah.
Gary Ross (24:56):
And we're not necessarily sugarcoating it.
I mean we're telling people whywe're doing it, but notice, we
didn't in that little story.
We're not telling people we'renot apologizing, we're not
sugarcoating it or doinganything of the sort.
We're leveling with people andwhen news is bad and for some
(25:19):
folks that actually might be badnews because of their commutes
people tend to appreciate it ifyou level with them and you say
okay, look, here's what'shappening.
We'll answer all your questions, give you everything we can to
support you and we'll move on.
People may think well, you knowI don't like this, but at least
(25:40):
they leveled with me andthey're being straight.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (25:44):
Yeah, and I feel like the more you can be
transparent in yourcommunication, the better off
you're going to be.
Gary Ross (25:50):
Yeah well, so let's talk about transparency for a
second.
Okay, I'm not a huge fan of theT word when it comes to
communication, because there areas well meaning as we are.
We can't always be 100%transparent, because there are
(26:13):
confidentiality things withpersonal matters.
With some business, there couldbe some considerations, there
could be some regulatory stuff,other confidentiality things.
So when we say we're going tobe transparent, we're not.
We're actually promisingsomething we can't really
deliver.
Instead, what we can say iswe're going to promise you
(26:36):
clarity.
We're going to say you know,we're going to, we're going to
tell you everything that we can,when we're able to tell you,
and we're going to answer allyour questions and we're going
to put it all out there, and ifwe don't have an answer to the
question, we're going to tellyou we don't have an answer and
we'll give our best guess as towhen we might be able to give
you that, that answer, when itbecomes available.
(26:57):
But by saying we'll tell youeverything we can when we're
able to, you're promising togive people all the information
that you can give them, butyou're also acknowledging that
there's stuff that you justcan't talk about, and that helps
the authenticity piece.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (27:20):
Yeah, for sure, and it is true because
even just as a former businessowner of a brick and mortar
business, people would call andask a question.
You know, I had a clothingstore, so when is my dress that
I ordered going to arrive?
They call or email and I alwaysmy team or I, we maybe didn't
(27:45):
know the answer because we knewwhat day it was going to ship,
but we maybe didn't know whatday it's going to arrive.
Shauna Foster (27:49):
Right.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (27:50):
And I would always say we'd always reply
back or phone them back, emailthem back, whatever it was, and
say you know, thanks, so muchfor your call, and I don't have
the exact date right now, butonce it ships I'll get that date
and then I can let you know.
We'll have a better idea,because to just not respond at
all to their email or phone call, to not call them back, and
(28:12):
then call them back and say, oh,your dress has arrived.
You know, it was just a betterexperience for them.
Yeah, they're not left in thedark, right.
Gary Ross (28:22):
Right and you're.
You innocently may be saying toyourself well, I don't have an
answer for them yet, so I'll getback to them when I do, and
that might make that, might makesome sense to you on that end.
But on their end, think of putyourself in their shoes and
their frame of reference.
All they're seeing is radiosilence, you're not answering
their question and again they'releft up to thinking OK, well,
(28:45):
what's happening?
They're dodging me, the item'snot coming in, it's never going
to come in, I'm going to notgoing to get a refund, I'm going
to get screwed.
All that that's what's goingthrough people's mind.
But just the simple act ofreaching out and saying, hey, we
don't have a date yet, butwe'll keep you updated, shows
that you're engaged.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (29:04):
Yeah, that's so true, so true, and it's not
communicating.
You said that not communicatingis communicating and that could
not be more true.
Right, not hearing back?
And if you are on the other endof that and you keep asking and
there's nothing, there's noreply, like it's the most
frustrating experience.
Yeah, whether your staff memberor a client or whatever, it is
(29:27):
right.
Gary Ross (29:28):
Exactly, exactly.
And so when it's time for youto go, have people follow you,
inspire people to act on yourvision, you've eaten up some of
your communications capital, soto speak.
If you've made people sit inradio silence for a while on
other things, they already havein their mind their view of you
(29:53):
as a communicator, yourcommunicator identity, so to
speak.
So when it is time for you toget up there and tell your story
and all of that, if you'vealready led people into radio
silence or doubt beforehand,it's going to affect your
credibility.
When it is time, when you wantto get on the stage and then
(30:14):
start talking, For sure, and Ithink the same goes to the
importance of following through,right?
Mackenzie Kilshaw (30:22):
So when you say, if you're a leader and
you're talking to your team andyou're giving them a really
inspirational and you're doingthe, where are we here?
We are now and where are wegoing and how are we getting
there and what will it look like, and you give them this story
and everybody's excited and theycan't wait, and then nothing
(30:42):
happens, right?
That's a problem.
Gary Ross (30:47):
Well, it can be a problem because it can go toward
trust and credibility.
But if nothing happens andthere's a good reason for it
what should we do?
We should go out there andcommunicate and update our story
and say here's what's happening, we didn't expect this or
whatever the reason is.
But again, leveling with people, that authenticity, that
(31:09):
clarity that you're going tooffer people goes a long, long
way.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (31:14):
That's so true and I think once you've got
it, once you've got your threerules figured out and you've got
your story, and then you can beengaging and bring people along
with you on that journey.
We've all had things that don'twork out.
I don't really like the wordfailure because I like to look
at it more as lessons to belearned, but you're right,
(31:36):
sometimes it doesn't work outand we didn't get to where we
thought we would, or there'ssome bumps in the road.
Maybe we were getting there,but just acknowledging that
right Yep, and saying I knowthis didn't go as planned, this
was a hiccup we didn't expect to.
Whatever it is, so that yourteam or your clients, or whoever
(31:56):
it is you're communicating with, understand that that's where
you are.
Gary Ross (32:01):
Yeah, and they appreciate that.
They really appreciate thecandor they appreciate the
authenticity.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (32:07):
Yeah, and I think it builds trust too right
to just acknowledge that, hey,this isn't what we thought was
going to happen.
But here we are now, and thenyou start again.
But how are we going to get towhere we need to go, right?
Gary Ross (32:19):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (32:21):
That's awesome.
Did anyone be a goodcommunicator?
I know lots of people are likewell, I'm so introverted that I
don't like talking or I don'tlike, but if they follow these
rules, can they communicate aswell as anyone else?
Gary Ross (32:38):
I think they can improve in their communication
absolutely, and I don't know ifI would get in the business of
ranking people as communicatorsand these people are better than
others and so forth.
But I think that you candefinitely make progress by
thinking about these threenumber one rules, using some of
(33:00):
the tips and some of the thingsthat we've talked about the four
questions for the stories, thethink, feel, do piece,
understanding that you'recommunicating even without
communicating.
Yeah, and if you're consideringall of those things, when you
start tightening up yourcommunication by considering
those things, factoring them in,then, yeah, I think anybody can
(33:23):
be a better communicator.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (33:26):
I think so too, and it's so funny that
we're talking about this today,because I know I mentioned I
listened to this master classand now we're on here and I
don't think I ever actually Icertainly didn't know your three
roles listed out, but I neverkind of thought about the, the,
where are we now going, how arewe gonna get there and what will
it look like.
But I feel like when you thinkback to sometimes where you've,
(33:50):
you know, talked to your team,you're like, oh, I did that and
I didn't even realize I wasdoing it.
Gary Ross (33:55):
How about that?
Mackenzie Kilshaw (33:56):
Yeah, or on the flip side.
Wait a minute.
I did not do this and I maybeshould have right.
Things would have got a lotbetter.
Gary Ross (34:04):
Well, if you, if you realize that you've did, you did
it in the past or a form ofthat in the past, then that just
goes to show you how tried andtrue the storytelling piece is
and that particular structureAgain, it's the core of the
Wizard of Oz, which is one ofthe greatest stories of all time
, right, yes, and it's been usedin tons of others that I'm sure
(34:30):
you can think of.
So in some ways it comesnaturally because, again, as
humans, we're wired for thosestories.
But the advantage of thinkingabout those four questions and
starting to get into thediscipline of using that makes
it less likely that you'll havethose occasions where, oh gosh,
I should have done that.
So that's what I like to do isbring that to folks, to folks
(34:54):
awareness, so they can get intothat discipline, and working
with teams and executives and soforth to help them do that.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (35:03):
Yeah, I think really, if you look at this
kind of, I take notes the entiretime we're going through this,
but when you look at this onpaper, it's not complicated Like
, it's pretty easy when it'sjust written down here.
Gary Ross (35:15):
Right and it's fairly intuitive as well.
There may be some folks outthere saying, well, I kind of
already knew this.
Okay, well, good, now thatwe've put it out there in a way
that you can organize it foryourself and you can be a little
bit more disciplined aboutremembering it, let's use it
more and that'll help you be abetter communicator.
(35:37):
It's no good if it's all uphere but you don't actually use
it.
So, going through it in thisway, even if it's already
somewhat intuitive to you, Ithink this will help organize
some of those thoughts so youcan actually use them on a
day-to-day basis.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (35:50):
Yeah, I think you're so right on that.
And just when we're talkingabout strong communication or
being a good communicator, whatsuccesses can you attribute to
communication, to yourcommunication skills?
What you mean, me personally,or just yeah, so like so I know
(36:13):
we talked before that you canimprove productivity or you can
be a more inspirational leader.
Is there things that come toyour mind that you're like, oh,
when someone's communicationskills are awesome, this is what
rewards they can see.
Gary Ross (36:29):
Oh yeah, I'll give you a big one is when there's a
merger or an acquisition somesort of, or an integration of
two companies.
That's you can see where goodcommunication can help there and
you could also see where badcommunication has led to
(36:50):
disaster.
Because if you're buying anorganization, what happens in
the organization that's beingacquired?
They start getting nervous, orwe're gonna lose our jobs,
what's gonna happen and all that.
So the acquirer better have agood story to tell those folks
so they can understand what'shappening, how they're gonna fit
into the new organization, evenif some of the news isn't so
(37:10):
good.
Yeah, and by doing that thenpeople can turn around and say,
okay, well, at least theyleveled with me, I'm gonna go
get back to work.
So that's what goodcommunication can give you.
And what that means issustained productivity.
And what that means is you'vepreserved or even enhanced the
value of what you just bought.
If you bought an organization,let's say, for $100 million just
(37:33):
throw out a number, that'spretty big number.
But let's say you bought anorganization for $100 million
and it's full of angry, confused, disengaged people on the day
that the deal closes, is whatyou bought still worth $100
million?
Mackenzie Kilshaw (37:50):
No, yeah, probably not right.
Gary Ross (37:53):
But if you get up there with that good
communication you answerpeople's questions, you tell
them a story, you provide asmuch clarity as you possibly can
then they'll turn around andsay, all right, well, they
leveled with me and I guess I'llget back to work.
I've actually seen this happenin a project that I worked on a
while back.
I was working at a.
(38:14):
It was a publicly tradedcompany where everybody had
stock options and being apublicly traded company was a
big deal to everybody.
Well, the company was beingsold to a private equity group
and the company was gonna betaken private.
So no more stock price, no morestock options.
People were gonna get paid fortheir options but nothing more
additional.
This was really gonna rockpeople's world and I was brought
(38:39):
in early to put togethercommunication plan on this and,
by the way, a lot of the commshad to do with executive
visibility and answeringquestions, all the things that
we had talked about.
And the announcement came and weexecuted our plan and it went
really well and within 48 hoursof the announcement the company
(39:00):
had its fourth largest sales dayever in the history of the
company to that date.
To that date.
And the CEO said to me.
He said a big part of that isbecause of our communication
around this announcement.
Because that's exactly whathappened is we've reduced that
anxiety, we answered people'squestions, they turn around and
(39:21):
they got back to work, and sothat's what good communication
can get to.
It's real dollars, it's realmoney.
So do you wanna make money andpreserve the level of your
investment or do you wanna kissit goodbye because you might be
a little nervous aboutcommunicating?
So that's a real question thatbusiness leaders, managers,
(39:43):
business owners need to askthemselves Sometimes.
I learned a while back and Itold executives this I would say
to people as I was coachingthem sometimes doing the right
thing is kind of a pain in theneck, and I didn't use language
with that knife, but this is afamily podcast, right?
Mackenzie Kilshaw (40:06):
It's all good , Gary, we can say it if we
complete that.
Gary Ross (40:10):
I literally did tell a CEO to his face.
I said you know what sometimesdoing the right thing is a pain
in the ass.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (40:16):
And.
Gary Ross (40:16):
It's true too, but it's worth doing.
And so if you've got thatlittle guy on your shoulder
saying you know you better getout there and communicate about
this, even though it might betough and you've got some hard
things to say, and whatever yougo out there, you will preserve
and enhance productivity.
You'll preserve and enhance thevalue of your organization.
(40:39):
If you don't, then productivitywill go down.
Distractions will go up.
By the way, employee turnoverwill increase.
That costs real money as well,right, especially the labor
market that you know.
Who knows where things aregoing right now depends on your
industry, but that's reallyimportant.
Also, this is real money.
It's not just a nice to have,it's real money.
(41:01):
So that's what's at stake.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:03):
Yeah, for sure, and I mean your example
was big corporation, but itdoesn't matter what size you are
.
Shauna Foster (41:10):
Oh no, not at all.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:11):
Because this can happen in a small business
of 10 people, right?
Maybe someone's buying thebusiness, or maybe there's a new
employee or I call them acancerous employee right?
Someone that kind of causestrouble.
And you're right, if yourcommunication skills are where
they should be, you can reallymitigate a lot of these problems
(41:33):
that are potential problems.
Gary Ross (41:36):
Yeah, yep, yeah, awesome and reduce a lot of the
drama also, too, that can comealong with some of these things
as well.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:43):
Yeah, and drama in the workplace it
happens and it's never goodright?
Gary Ross (41:48):
Yeah, that's a drag on productivity as well 100%.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:52):
Do you have, I guess, throughout all of your
years, of your different careersand now with being a
communications expert, do youhave a most important lesson on
communication that you wannashare, or something that you
must do?
This to be a great communicator?
Gary Ross (42:13):
Keep communicating, keep communicating and remember
all the different ways in whichyou can communicate through your
actions, through your words,through, again, not
communicating there are, andthat's generally not a good
thing.
But the more radio silencethere is, the more gap that will
(42:36):
form between the people whoneed to communicate something
and the people who need to hearwhat's being communicated.
So figure out a way to do it.
And I know there are sometimesthere's people in our ears, like
lawyers or other folks, thatsay oh wait, we can't say this,
(42:58):
we shouldn't do that.
Well, and that's fine, and I'veloved working with lawyers on
those sorts of things throughoutmy career.
It's intellectually stimulating.
But we also have to be preparedto say well, there's a business
need to communicate somethinghere.
So as somebody Mr or MsAttorney, as someone who is here
(43:21):
to support the business, let'swork together on figuring out
what it is we can say, becausenot saying anything really
shouldn't be an option.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (43:29):
I agree and I just want to personally thank
you because I mean, I think Iknew it, but it was kind of a
light bulb moment for me wherenot communicating is
communicating, and it's so trueand I think that can be almost
more of a detriment than sayingsomething right.
Gary Ross (43:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (43:51):
Yeah, for sure.
Is there anything you wish youhad known, or maybe wish you had
known sooner?
With communication, I feel likewhen you have a journalist
background, you're really greatat speaking and writing, but
maybe there's something you'dlike to tell your younger self.
Gary Ross (44:10):
To tell my younger self.
I'll tell you where I got alittle bit in trouble earlier in
my career.
Not so much trouble, it'ssomething that held me back and
it was a lack of authenticity onmy part.
(44:31):
I was in line for a promotionand my boss, who was a VP,
wanted to promote me up a levelin his team.
But because I would work a lotwith the president of the
company, the president needed toapprove the promotion and he
didn't approve it.
He didn't deny it either.
He said, well, let's just waita little bit.
(44:52):
And he kind of kept me twistingin the wind for months at a time
and I didn't really understandwhat was happening.
Well, one day I think it waslate in the day I happened to go
into his office with a coupleother executives to talk about I
don't know what it was, but itwas late in the day, it was a
long day and around this guy Iused to just really tighten up
(45:14):
and stand on ceremony and justnot be myself.
But for whatever it was thisday I was just tired.
It was like whatever, I'll justgo in and I was a lot more
myself.
I joked around a little bit, alittle more questionable around
him than I normally was.
And the meeting ended and thenumber two guy in the company
followed me out the door and hesaid you know, if you had been
(45:36):
like that in every other meeting, you would have gotten the
promotion already.
And eventually I did get thepromotion.
But it was a huge learningexperience for me in that, in
working with with seniorexecutives and working with
people that I might haveinitially been intimidated by,
or with their roles and whatnot,you still need to be your
(45:59):
authentic self, because they'repeople too, and it's applied
just to managing up.
I think it applies to any othersituation where, if it's if
it's an individual or anorganization or just a situation
in general that we might beintimidated by, you need to take
a step back and say you know,I'm here for a reason.
I can be myself and and that'swhat people are expecting and
(46:22):
that's what people are wanting.
And that was a huge lesson forme earlier in my career and I
guess I had wished I had knownthat earlier, would have gotten
promoted earlier and wouldn'thave had all those months of of
angst yeah, you know what.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (46:34):
That's great.
That's great advice and I think, especially when we're living
in a world of digital and all ofthat stuff just being true and
genuine to who you are it isdefinitely going to get you
further, and likely further,faster.
Gary Ross (46:49):
Yeah, and people ask me, now that we're in this world
of virtual work, how do peopleneed to be communicating?
And, yeah, you know there aresome things that we need to make
sure we do, that we know how touse cameras and microphones and
lights and all that stuff.
And, yeah, yes, we have to bemore intentional to get somebody
on the other end of the zoom orwhatever it is that that we're
(47:11):
using, and so that that requiresmore, more discipline and more
intentionally.
But the end of the day, that'sthe same two people on the other
side of the camera and themicrophone.
And I think the more weremember that, the more
authentic, the more authenticand the more the more effective
our communication will be, evenin a, even in a virtual setting.
(47:34):
So, yeah, we've got to learnsome of the tactical things and
that kind of stuff, and surethat that comes with getting
used to a new piece oftechnology and this remote work
stuff has been going on for afew years now.
So hopefully we're, we're alllearning on that, but at the end
of the day, we're the samepeople that used to be in the
(47:55):
office together and and so thethe authenticity, the
genuineness, the forthcoming ofnature of communication, the
storytelling, knowing thateverything communicates, having
to know your audience all thatstuff still applies.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (48:14):
Totally true, Gary.
I know that there are going tobe so many people listening that
want to learn more about youand what you do, so where is the
best place for them to find you?
Gary Ross (48:25):
Well, you can email me at info, info at inside comms
.
com, that's i N, s, I, d, e, c,o M M S dot com.
Or you can go on to my mainwebsite, which is W W, W do
inside comms do com, spelled thesame way.
(48:47):
And then I have e learningcourses as well, which I think I
mentioned earlier aboutcommunication.
I also do custom e learning aswell.
So if anybody is looking for elearning courses for their
organization, let's talk aboutwhat it is you need, and it's
most likely something I can, Ican, produce for you.
But my e learning website,where there's communication
(49:08):
courses available for purchase,is plus P, l, u, s do inside
comm do com.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (49:15):
Gary, thank you so much.
I appreciate this so much andI'm a little light bulb moment
here with the non communicatingand I know that so many other
people are going to learn somevery valuable lessons here from
our little chat today.
So thank you so much for beingon.
I really appreciate it.
Gary Ross (49:32):
I'm so glad.
Thank you for having me.
This has been fun.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (49:34):
Yeah, that worked out great and to
everybody listening.
Thank you guys so much fortuning in and we will see you on
the next episode.
Thanks for listening to Winning.
Be sure to subscribe to get allof our new episodes.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about on social
media and leave a rating andreview wherever you listen to it
(49:56):
.
To catch all of the latest fromus, you can follow Winning
podcast on Instagram a winningpodcast, facebook Facebook
Winning podcast Podcast onTwitter at Winning winning.
Winning was created and isproduced by me, mackenzie
Mackenzie Music, created bySummer Furby, Firby editing by
Seth Armstrong.
(50:17):
Special thanks to Shauna Fosterfor voicing our opening and, of
course, a huge thank you tothis episode's guest.
Thanks again for listening andI'll see you on the next episode
.
Winning is your guide to making it in business.
Join our award-winning host andentrepreneur, Mackenzie Kilshaw
, and special guests in casualconversations that will educate
and inspire you on your businessjourney.
Winning will help you learn thehard lessons the easy way, with
guidance from celebratedentrepreneurs and business
(00:26):
leaders.
It's fun, it's informative,it's winning Hello welcome to
Winning.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (00:32):
I am your host, Mackenzie Kilshaw, and
today's guest is Gary Ross.
Hi, Gary, hey, Mackenzie,thanks for having me.
Yeah, thanks for being on.
I was just saying before Istarted recording I'm so pumped
to have Gary on.
Gary works with everyone fromC-suite to the production line
to be a better communicatorwe're talking all about
communication today, and socommunication so they can lead
(00:53):
and inspire others, increaseproductivity and advance their
careers.
He is a former Fortune 500corporate communications
executive.
He's an Emmy nominated which isso cool we have a touch on that
broadcast journalist.
And he also is a currentstadium and arena public
announcer, which is super cooltoo.
So thank you for being on, Gary, I'm really excited to have you
(01:15):
.
Gary Ross (01:15):
Yeah, thanks again.
Thanks for having me lookingforward to talking about
communication and how we canhelp people use communication to
advance their companies,advance their careers, inspire
others, increase productivityall that fun stuff.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (01:30):
I love that and I think you and I are
probably on the same page.
But if you are not a goodcommunicator, or you are not
good at communicating to whoeverit is you need to, things are
not going to go well for you.
Gary Ross (01:43):
Yeah, things will.
Things are definitely will kindof get out of control, because
if we're not communicating, ifwe're not aligning on what it is
that we want to do, if we'renot sure of the job we want our
communication to do, we're justgoing to go out there and say
things willy nilly and thingswill fall where they may.
And that's not goodstrategically, that's not good
(02:07):
tactically, it's not good foranybody.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (02:10):
So yeah, I agree, and I think communication
is one of those things, that itis essential for your success,
but it is often forgotten.
Gary Ross (02:20):
Yeah, well, it's forgotten.
But I think also sometimespeople have a nagging sense that
they need to do better at itand they're not sure how, and
that's one of the things that Ihelp people with is to drill
down into some of what some ofthose issues might be and then
to develop some tools, and alsoI have some tips for people in
various situations on how tocommunicate better, and a lot of
(02:43):
it also goes toward developingconfidence as well.
Sometimes people aren't surewhat to say, or how to say it,
or what they're allowed to say,what they feel that they're
supposed to say, all thosethings, and that can get in the
way as well.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (02:58):
Yeah, for sure, we are going to get all
into communication, but I wantedto start back.
I gave a little bit of a bioabout you, but do you want to
just tell our audience kind ofwho you are and give us some
insight into some of those Emmynominated journalists?
You're an announcer at arenas.
That's super cool.
So this is an idea of who youare and we'll go from there.
Gary Ross (03:19):
Yeah, so I got out of school as a journalist, majored
in journalism and got into TVand radio and, yeah, I was
nominated for an Emmy for somework I did in Charleston, South
Carolina, where I was aninvestigative reporter.
I also did some anchoring there,did some radio anchoring and
reporting in the New York Cityarea as well, and then it was a
(03:42):
heck of a lot of fun and I had agreat time doing it but didn't
really see it necessarily as thecareer for me.
So I got into communicationsand eventually wound up running
communication departments atthree large companies here in
the Chicago area where I'm based.
Those companies were CDW, HyattHotels and Fortune Brands and
(04:02):
after that had a chance to dosomething on my own which I
always wanted to do and havebeen consulting and training and
coaching and focused oninternal communication.
When internal communication andworkplace communication happen
well, then it benefitsindividuals because they're
aligned, they understand howthey fit into the organization
(04:23):
and the organization gets ahappy and engaged workforce.
So it's a win-win for everybodyand I like working with folks
to make a difference on thatfront.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (04:31):
That's awesome.
So did you always see yourselfin this area when you were
younger, or did your journalismcareer start you out with
realizing how importantcommunication is?
Gary Ross (04:43):
Yeah, it's kind of like that.
I mean I started in high schoolactually writing for my high
school newspaper and reallyenjoyed doing it and said, okay,
well, let's go study journalismand I can be a reporter and get
into journalism.
Or I was pretty sure thatwhatever I learned there would
serve me well and whatever Idecided to do and really both
(05:06):
happened I became a journalistand then got out of the daily
news business.
But today, being a journalist,you learn so many skills that
translate into being a greatcommunicator and helping people
be good communicators.
So things like being a quickstudy.
When you're a journalist you'rewalking in the door every day.
(05:27):
You're not sure what you'regoing to be covering that day on
the news.
You've got to be a quick study.
You have to be able to tellstories and position things in a
way that is persuasive topeople.
It's interesting to people beable to distill complicated
information and get that downinto terms that people can
understand quickly on the firstpass.
(05:48):
So all those things that youhave to do as a reporter really
serve you very well in thecorporate world, in the business
world, and again, it's one ofthose areas where people tend to
feel a little less confidentand aren't sure how to go about
improving on that.
That's something I help folkswith.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (06:07):
Yeah, that's awesome and so so you're a
communication expert, really, ifwe're, if we're getting down to
it, Tell us a little bit moreabout your business and how your
expertise of communicationhelps people.
Gary Ross (06:25):
Yeah, so I'm a workplace communication trainer,
so I work with organizations tohelp their people inform and
inspire and influence others,and that can be people within
organizations.
It can be also to communicatewith folks outside the
organization as well, likecustomers or vendors or partners
(06:45):
and those sort of things, andand so for.
For some clients, I partnerwith their learning and
development team and, and, andand I'm included in some of the
courses that they offer aroundthe, around their company.
I come in and do live in persontraining and do live virtual
training.
I also do e-learning as welland I've done some custom
(07:09):
e-learning actually for for someorganizations as well, so for
for topics that they've, thatthey've needed.
So again, that kind of bringsback my TV background too,
because I'm familiar with beingin the studio and writing for
writing for the year and all ofthat stuff.
So that helps produce a lot ofthe, the e-learning pieces as
well.
So there's really a lot ofdifferent ways that people can
(07:31):
can learn about communications.
And then, specifically, some ofthe things I work on are, for
example, clients will come to meand say you know, our people
aren't showing up professionally, they're not writing well,
they're, they're, they're notputting complete sentences
together, believe it or not, andwe need help doing that.
(07:51):
Or or by my folks have, coulduse some help in in leading
difficult conversations, whetherit's people, managers, and and
they're they're team members orleading a client perhaps through
a difficult conversation.
So things like that eliminatingfiller words, helping people
say um, and and like a lot, alot less, and even though I do
(08:13):
it myself, we all, we all do itand it's it's about and I and I
try to have fun with it too.
So I don't, I don't, get up infront of people and say, hey,
you said um 27 times on you, uhit, we, we, we go through it and
and say, okay, here's some ofthe reasons why you might use
filler words and here are someof the things that you can do to
(08:33):
to try to reduce that.
So so items like items likethat.
I have the three number onerules of communication that I
feel are pretty key to tocommunicating, and I've spoken
and talked about that as well.
So I work with organizations onthose, those kinds of topics,
and I've spoken at conferencesabout those kinds of topics as
(08:54):
well and and love to continue towork with with organizations on
that, I know, you know, withwith your audience.
They might be on the on thesmaller side, but really, as as
founders, as entrepreneurspeople are can be so close to a,
a topic, it can be hard forthem to pull back a little bit
(09:14):
and think about their audienceand understand what might
resonate about their story withtheir audience, the people that
they need to inform andinfluence and inspire.
And that's one of the things Ican, I can help people do is to
understand, really dig into whoyour audiences are, how to
understand your audience, how tothink about your audience and
how to think about yourcommunication as a result.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (09:37):
That's so interesting because I was just
watching a Masterclass the otherday about public speaking.
So many people say to me how doyou talk to people, how do you
get up in a room or how do yougo in your podcast and just talk
and you sound like you're soconfident, and I guess it does.
I don't think I'm confident,but I guess it comes down to to
confidence.
But really I love how you saidknowing your audience, cause
(09:59):
that is so true.
If you can connect with youraudience, they are going to
listen to you.
Right, they'll tune out if theydon't connect.
Gary Ross (10:07):
Absolutely, and and so know your audience actually
is one of my three number onerules of communication, and, and
it all comes down tocommunicating the right thing to
the right people at the righttime, in the right way, and
because if you don't, if youmiss any of those elements there
, then your communication iseither going to fall flat or
(10:29):
it'll land in the wrong place,or it'll go out at the wrong
time.
People won't know what, what,what to do with it, and I've
seen a lot of people in business.
They'll go out and they feellike, oh, I need to communicate
something right now, I need acommunication.
But they don't stop to think,well, all right, is this the
best time to be communicating?
And who am I?
Am I the people that I'm goingto be talking to?
Are they even prepared to acton what it is that that I want
(10:50):
to say?
And if they're not, am I usingup too much of their precious
attention on this when I'm goingto need them later on for
something else and keep mypowder dry and and and not get
in front of them with somethingthey really can't do anything
about anyway?
But I'm just going to feelbetter because I'm out there
broadcasting something sounderstanding really about your
(11:12):
audience, what, what motivatesthem?
What do, what do they want fromyou?
What do you want from them andare, again, are they prepared,
are they able to act on what itis that you're that you're
talking about, really thinkingthose things through and then
understanding and then thinkingabout actually this could be a
formal communication or couldjust be going into a
(11:35):
conversation what do you wantyour audience to think, feel and
do as a result of yourcommunication?
Those three things what do youwant them to think, what do you
want them to feel and,ultimately, what do you want
them to do?
A lot of times in ourcommunication we stop with the
think and the feel part.
We say, okay, here's theinformation and I want you to
(11:56):
get psyched about this and thisis so exciting, you're going to
be a part of something terrific.
And then we give them somethingvague that says, so, finish the
year strong, or something likethat.
Then we turn around and peopleturn around like, well, all
right, I'm in, I understand, I'mready to go, what do I do?
And then they turn to theirmanager and the manager says,
well, I don't know.
I saw the same email you did.
(12:16):
I don't really know what to do,and so we have to make sure
we're prescriptive about what itis that we want people to do
after we've made them think andfeel a certain way as a result
of our communication.
So we do that when we get againhave that understanding about
what motivates our audience, whothey are and so forth.
So starting to get into thatdiscipline of thinking about
(12:39):
that and just answering thosefew very simple questions can
really help make you a much moreeffective and confident
communicator.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (12:46):
I totally agree.
So you've talked a couple oftimes about your three rules of
communication and I think we'vetouched on one of them, know
your audience, but do you wantto tell us what are your three
rules and then go through eachone and I know the audience is
one of them?
Gary Ross (13:04):
But let's just go through all of them.
So we did the audience one, socheck.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (13:09):
Yes.
Gary Ross (13:10):
The other one, or one of the other ones, is
everything communicates.
Understanding that everythingcommunicates is not just what
you say and it's not just whatyou do.
Sometimes it's what you don'tsay.
So understanding that, forexample, there may be something
that you feel that you need tocommunicate, but you're not
(13:30):
quite ready.
So you're going to wait a week,and then a week goes by and you
figure, oh no, I just needanother week, and another week
goes by.
Meanwhile, if you put yourselfin the audience shoes, they're
not hearing anything.
That's radio.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (13:43):
Right.
Gary Ross (13:44):
And then.
So if it's kind of a diceysituation, the audience, they're
going to start making up theirown story in their own mind and
it's never as good as the storythat you want to tell or as
accurate as a story you want totell.
So by the time you're actuallygoing out there to communicate,
you're already behind the eightball.
So getting out there andcommunicating, even if you're
(14:08):
not 100% ready, I mean, don't goout there and communicate
things recklessly and so forth,but keep in mind that not
communicating is in factcommunicating.
There are also things that youmay be doing that are actually
acts of communication withoutyou realizing it.
Now give you an example.
I was working with an ITdepartment in an organization a
(14:30):
few years ago and they weregetting ready to.
The leadership of the team wasthinking about some changes to
the department and they didn'twant to communicate it out
anything out to the team justyet, because they were still
working through some things,which is fine and entirely
responsible.
But they didn't realize thatpeople were starting to get a
(14:51):
hint that something was going onand the way they got that hint
and, by the way, this is avirtual team, so it's not like
people could see folks walkingaround the hallway or anything.
What happened was is theleadership team had blocked out
half days and full days formeetings on the online calendar
and people saw they thought,well, wait a minute, why is
(15:12):
everybody all huddled up inthese meetings?
The leadership team didn'trealize they were communicating
just in the fact of schedulingtime with one another on this
visible tool, and they didn'tthink that that created a
communication implication, whichit did.
So what happened was is rumorsagain started to bubble up again
(15:34):
, never as good as what you wantthem.
So they had to.
They had to go back and hurryup and come up with something,
and it was.
We had to help them out with alittle bit.
It was a little bit of a mess.
So, understanding that the, the,the, some of the actions that
you do communicate.
Now there's ways to do that onthe positive side as well.
So, if I'm always a big fan ofthe old MBWA managing by walking
(16:00):
around and we're not all inoffices every day or or at all,
so sometimes that's hard forleaders to do, and just these
days we have to be a little moreintentional about it by getting
on virtual meetings and makingsure we're scheduled into those
and so forth, but visibility asa leader in front of key
audiences, your employees, yourkey customers and so on, just
(16:21):
showing up is an activecommunity that you can use to to
your advantage, especially whenyou're in a leadership position
, and people covet thatattention that that a leader can
give.
So so there's there's that aswell.
So understanding that thateverything communicates is is
(16:42):
hugely powerful and can help youcommunicate in some ways,
either louder or more subtly,depending on what the situation
was.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (16:53):
I love how you said that the visibility of
a leader because I know in pastjobs that I've had before I
became an entrepreneur but hadleaders that didn't attend
meetings or didn't reply to theemail chain or whatever it was.
And, of course, as the employee, your first thought is do they
(17:17):
not care about this?
Are they too busy for us?
Do we not matter?
That's kind of the first thingthat you go to right.
Gary Ross (17:25):
Yeah, because that's an act of communication.
Them not showing up is sendinga message.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (17:30):
Yes, oh, that's so true, so true.
Okay, and what's the third?
Gary Ross (17:35):
The third one is tell them a story, and it goes back
to storytelling.
As I had mentioned earlier,there's something about us as
human beings that in our brainsthat just draws us into stories.
We're programmed to be drawninto them, to be emotionally
attached into them, and eversince cave men days that's how
(17:56):
people have been communicating.
There are tried and truestorytelling formulas,
structures, whatever elements,whatever you want to call them,
that we can use in a businesssetting to give that extra
feeling, that extra emotion inwhat we want to communicate.
(18:17):
So I'm not talking abouteverybody going into a
conference room and sittingaround a campfire, but instead
we you know the sprinklers, firecodes and all that.
That's what we'd sound aboutroad right, right, right, right,
right, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I don't want to do that,but instead of just
communicating dry pieces ofinformation, take a step back
(18:38):
and think about how can Icommunicate this in a more
compelling way that's going toget people to follow along with
me, to take them from thebeginning of something all the
way through a journey that theycan see themselves on and they
can be a part of.
And so how do we do that?
We ask ourselves four questionswhen are we now, where are we
(19:00):
going, how are we going to getthere and what will it look like
when we get there?
And we go ahead and we answereach of those questions,
initially with essentially onesentence, and then, from there,
we think about some supportingthemes behind each of those
(19:20):
sentences, and then we can backthem up with some facts as well,
some proof points.
And if we ask ourselves thosequestions, all right, here I
need to communicate aboutsomething.
Let me think about this in theterms of where are we now, where
are we going, how are we goingto get there and what will it
look like when we get there?
I can organize everything out,and what that does is that gives
(19:44):
me the form of a story.
So I'll give you an example.
Let's say a company, you have abranch office out in the suburbs
and they need to move into thedowntown core to be near
customers.
A company can send out a memoand we've all seen these memos
like this that say the decisionhas been made to move our office
(20:06):
downtown.
This move will be happening onsuch and such a date.
Two days before that you'll bereceiving boxes.
Please put all your belongingsin there.
It will be moved down to thenew office and we need you to
come in on Saturday for a coupleof hours to set up your new
office.
Thank you very much for yourcooperation.
We believe this will help us besuccessful moving forward.
(20:27):
Thank you for your cooperation.
Have a nice day.
Yeah, I've seen dry memos likethat.
Well, instead, let's thinkabout what's exactly going on
here.
This office has to move intothe city to be closer to
customers.
So let's think about those fourquestions.
Where are we now?
We're at our office here in thesuburbs.
We're far from our customers.
The performance of the officeis suffering.
(20:49):
There's something that we needto do about this right now.
So that's where we now.
Where are we going?
We're going to be moving into anew office downtown in the city.
We're going to be closer to ourcustomers.
We believe that this will helpimprove revenue for our office
and help make us a lot morefinancially sustainable moving
(21:11):
forward.
How are we going to get there?
We'll provide all theinformation and materials you
need for your move.
We understand this is going todisrupt some of your commutes.
We'll give you new informationon your commutes and all the new
cool restaurants that will benear downtown and other
amenities in our newneighborhood.
And what will it look like whenwe get there is our last
(21:31):
question.
We will be well positioned tobe close to our customers and
work with them more personally,increase our sales and have a
much more successful futureindividually as well as as an
office.
So when we position somethinglike that in a story, where are
we now?
Where are we going?
How will we get there?
What will it look like when weget there?
(21:53):
We're able to give people abroad structure, a broad
framework, have something forthem to invest in and follow
along with you in doing, and, asleaders, as entrepreneurs,
that's what we need people to dois to follow our vision, follow
along with us.
So when we have four questionsand create a little story, we're
(22:15):
much more able to do that.
We're taking advantage of thehuman brain's predilection to
invest in a story, and thatstructure is an age old
structure.
It's one of many, but you seeit in Shakespeare and Star Wars.
My favorite example is theWizard of Oz.
That's the story structure forthe Wizard of Oz.
(22:37):
Where are we now?
We're stuck in Oz.
Where are we going?
We're off to see the Wizard sohe can get us home.
How are we going to get there?
We're going to follow theyellow brick road and oh, by the
way, we have to get past thewicked witch and the wing
monkeys and all that it's goingto look like when we get there.
There's no place like home.
So that simple formula, we canuse that at work, we could use
(23:00):
it every day at work to bringpeople along with us, and it's
really a terrific tool to have.
And again, as leaders, asentrepreneurs, as people who
want to inspire others, that isa great way to do it.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (23:15):
That is awesome.
I love that analogy.
And when you're talking aboutyour memo versus the first memo
where it's like we're moving,you got to pack your stuff up
and this is the date and thanksVersus.
Hey guys, we have to make somechanges, we need to move.
Because of these reasons,there's going to be some great
things once we make the move,and whatnot?
(23:36):
Not only have you gotten maybeyour team excited about the
change, because we know changeis hard, right, and change is
something that people often getnegative about.
So now they're like oh, this isgoing to be cool, we're going
to be busier at work, we'regoing to have more clients,
we're going to maybe my bonusesgo up.
(23:56):
Right, they start thinkingabout all the positive things
instead of maybe the negativethings.
And also, I think that it willalso reduce the afterthought of
the memo, which would bequestions Well, why are we
moving?
How come we have to move right?
Gary Ross (24:16):
Right.
And then again that personturns to their manager and says
well, how come we have to move?
And the manager says well, Ijust read the same memo you did.
I don't know.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (24:24):
Exactly.
Gary Ross (24:25):
Just put your stuff in the box when it comes and
don't get in trouble.
That's no way to work.
What it also does is you'realso leveling with people,
because in a situation like that, there are going to be people
(24:45):
who aren't going to like thechange that that's going to make
to their commutes, assumingthey have to be in the office
several times.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (24:53):
Further yeah.
Gary Ross (24:56):
And we're not necessarily sugarcoating it.
I mean we're telling people whywe're doing it, but notice, we
didn't in that little story.
We're not telling people we'renot apologizing, we're not
sugarcoating it or doinganything of the sort.
We're leveling with people andwhen news is bad and for some
(25:19):
folks that actually might be badnews because of their commutes
people tend to appreciate it ifyou level with them and you say
okay, look, here's what'shappening.
We'll answer all your questions, give you everything we can to
support you and we'll move on.
People may think well, you knowI don't like this, but at least
(25:40):
they leveled with me andthey're being straight.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (25:44):
Yeah, and I feel like the more you can be
transparent in yourcommunication, the better off
you're going to be.
Gary Ross (25:50):
Yeah well, so let's talk about transparency for a
second.
Okay, I'm not a huge fan of theT word when it comes to
communication, because there areas well meaning as we are.
We can't always be 100%transparent, because there are
(26:13):
confidentiality things withpersonal matters.
With some business, there couldbe some considerations, there
could be some regulatory stuff,other confidentiality things.
So when we say we're going tobe transparent, we're not.
We're actually promisingsomething we can't really
deliver.
Instead, what we can say iswe're going to promise you
(26:36):
clarity.
We're going to say you know,we're going to, we're going to
tell you everything that we can,when we're able to tell you,
and we're going to answer allyour questions and we're going
to put it all out there, and ifwe don't have an answer to the
question, we're going to tellyou we don't have an answer and
we'll give our best guess as towhen we might be able to give
you that, that answer, when itbecomes available.
(26:57):
But by saying we'll tell youeverything we can when we're
able to, you're promising togive people all the information
that you can give them, butyou're also acknowledging that
there's stuff that you justcan't talk about, and that helps
the authenticity piece.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (27:20):
Yeah, for sure, and it is true because
even just as a former businessowner of a brick and mortar
business, people would call andask a question.
You know, I had a clothingstore, so when is my dress that
I ordered going to arrive?
They call or email and I alwaysmy team or I, we maybe didn't
(27:45):
know the answer because we knewwhat day it was going to ship,
but we maybe didn't know whatday it's going to arrive.
Shauna Foster (27:49):
Right.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (27:50):
And I would always say we'd always reply
back or phone them back, emailthem back, whatever it was, and
say you know, thanks, so muchfor your call, and I don't have
the exact date right now, butonce it ships I'll get that date
and then I can let you know.
We'll have a better idea,because to just not respond at
all to their email or phone call, to not call them back, and
(28:12):
then call them back and say, oh,your dress has arrived.
You know, it was just a betterexperience for them.
Yeah, they're not left in thedark, right.
Gary Ross (28:22):
Right and you're.
You innocently may be saying toyourself well, I don't have an
answer for them yet, so I'll getback to them when I do, and
that might make that, might makesome sense to you on that end.
But on their end, think of putyourself in their shoes and
their frame of reference.
All they're seeing is radiosilence, you're not answering
their question and again they'releft up to thinking OK, well,
(28:45):
what's happening?
They're dodging me, the item'snot coming in, it's never going
to come in, I'm going to notgoing to get a refund, I'm going
to get screwed.
All that that's what's goingthrough people's mind.
But just the simple act ofreaching out and saying, hey, we
don't have a date yet, butwe'll keep you updated, shows
that you're engaged.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (29:04):
Yeah, that's so true, so true, and it's not
communicating.
You said that not communicatingis communicating and that could
not be more true.
Right, not hearing back?
And if you are on the other endof that and you keep asking and
there's nothing, there's noreply, like it's the most
frustrating experience.
Yeah, whether your staff memberor a client or whatever, it is
(29:27):
right.
Gary Ross (29:28):
Exactly, exactly.
And so when it's time for youto go, have people follow you,
inspire people to act on yourvision, you've eaten up some of
your communications capital, soto speak.
If you've made people sit inradio silence for a while on
other things, they already havein their mind their view of you
(29:53):
as a communicator, yourcommunicator identity, so to
speak.
So when it is time for you toget up there and tell your story
and all of that, if you'vealready led people into radio
silence or doubt beforehand,it's going to affect your
credibility.
When it is time, when you wantto get on the stage and then
(30:14):
start talking, For sure, and Ithink the same goes to the
importance of following through,right?
Mackenzie Kilshaw (30:22):
So when you say, if you're a leader and
you're talking to your team andyou're giving them a really
inspirational and you're doingthe, where are we here?
We are now and where are wegoing and how are we getting
there and what will it look like, and you give them this story
and everybody's excited and theycan't wait, and then nothing
(30:42):
happens, right?
That's a problem.
Gary Ross (30:47):
Well, it can be a problem because it can go toward
trust and credibility.
But if nothing happens andthere's a good reason for it
what should we do?
We should go out there andcommunicate and update our story
and say here's what's happening, we didn't expect this or
whatever the reason is.
But again, leveling with people, that authenticity, that
(31:09):
clarity that you're going tooffer people goes a long, long
way.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (31:14):
That's so true and I think once you've got
it, once you've got your threerules figured out and you've got
your story, and then you can beengaging and bring people along
with you on that journey.
We've all had things that don'twork out.
I don't really like the wordfailure because I like to look
at it more as lessons to belearned, but you're right,
(31:36):
sometimes it doesn't work outand we didn't get to where we
thought we would, or there'ssome bumps in the road.
Maybe we were getting there,but just acknowledging that
right Yep, and saying I knowthis didn't go as planned, this
was a hiccup we didn't expect to.
Whatever it is, so that yourteam or your clients, or whoever
(31:56):
it is you're communicating with, understand that that's where
you are.
Gary Ross (32:01):
Yeah, and they appreciate that.
They really appreciate thecandor they appreciate the
authenticity.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (32:07):
Yeah, and I think it builds trust too right
to just acknowledge that, hey,this isn't what we thought was
going to happen.
But here we are now, and thenyou start again.
But how are we going to get towhere we need to go, right?
Gary Ross (32:19):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (32:21):
That's awesome.
Did anyone be a goodcommunicator?
I know lots of people are likewell, I'm so introverted that I
don't like talking or I don'tlike, but if they follow these
rules, can they communicate aswell as anyone else?
Gary Ross (32:38):
I think they can improve in their communication
absolutely, and I don't know ifI would get in the business of
ranking people as communicatorsand these people are better than
others and so forth.
But I think that you candefinitely make progress by
thinking about these threenumber one rules, using some of
(33:00):
the tips and some of the thingsthat we've talked about the four
questions for the stories, thethink, feel, do piece,
understanding that you'recommunicating even without
communicating.
Yeah, and if you're consideringall of those things, when you
start tightening up yourcommunication by considering
those things, factoring them in,then, yeah, I think anybody can
(33:23):
be a better communicator.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (33:26):
I think so too, and it's so funny that
we're talking about this today,because I know I mentioned I
listened to this master classand now we're on here and I
don't think I ever actually Icertainly didn't know your three
roles listed out, but I neverkind of thought about the, the,
where are we now going, how arewe gonna get there and what will
it look like.
But I feel like when you thinkback to sometimes where you've,
(33:50):
you know, talked to your team,you're like, oh, I did that and
I didn't even realize I wasdoing it.
Gary Ross (33:55):
How about that?
Mackenzie Kilshaw (33:56):
Yeah, or on the flip side.
Wait a minute.
I did not do this and I maybeshould have right.
Things would have got a lotbetter.
Gary Ross (34:04):
Well, if you, if you realize that you've did, you did
it in the past or a form ofthat in the past, then that just
goes to show you how tried andtrue the storytelling piece is
and that particular structureAgain, it's the core of the
Wizard of Oz, which is one ofthe greatest stories of all time
, right, yes, and it's been usedin tons of others that I'm sure
(34:30):
you can think of.
So in some ways it comesnaturally because, again, as
humans, we're wired for thosestories.
But the advantage of thinkingabout those four questions and
starting to get into thediscipline of using that makes
it less likely that you'll havethose occasions where, oh gosh,
I should have done that.
So that's what I like to do isbring that to folks, to folks
(34:54):
awareness, so they can get intothat discipline, and working
with teams and executives and soforth to help them do that.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (35:03):
Yeah, I think really, if you look at this
kind of, I take notes the entiretime we're going through this,
but when you look at this onpaper, it's not complicated Like
, it's pretty easy when it'sjust written down here.
Gary Ross (35:15):
Right and it's fairly intuitive as well.
There may be some folks outthere saying, well, I kind of
already knew this.
Okay, well, good, now thatwe've put it out there in a way
that you can organize it foryourself and you can be a little
bit more disciplined aboutremembering it, let's use it
more and that'll help you be abetter communicator.
(35:37):
It's no good if it's all uphere but you don't actually use
it.
So, going through it in thisway, even if it's already
somewhat intuitive to you, Ithink this will help organize
some of those thoughts so youcan actually use them on a
day-to-day basis.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (35:50):
Yeah, I think you're so right on that.
And just when we're talkingabout strong communication or
being a good communicator, whatsuccesses can you attribute to
communication, to yourcommunication skills?
What you mean, me personally,or just yeah, so like so I know
(36:13):
we talked before that you canimprove productivity or you can
be a more inspirational leader.
Is there things that come toyour mind that you're like, oh,
when someone's communicationskills are awesome, this is what
rewards they can see.
Gary Ross (36:29):
Oh yeah, I'll give you a big one is when there's a
merger or an acquisition somesort of, or an integration of
two companies.
That's you can see where goodcommunication can help there and
you could also see where badcommunication has led to
(36:50):
disaster.
Because if you're buying anorganization, what happens in
the organization that's beingacquired?
They start getting nervous, orwe're gonna lose our jobs,
what's gonna happen and all that.
So the acquirer better have agood story to tell those folks
so they can understand what'shappening, how they're gonna fit
into the new organization, evenif some of the news isn't so
(37:10):
good.
Yeah, and by doing that thenpeople can turn around and say,
okay, well, at least theyleveled with me, I'm gonna go
get back to work.
So that's what goodcommunication can give you.
And what that means issustained productivity.
And what that means is you'vepreserved or even enhanced the
value of what you just bought.
If you bought an organization,let's say, for $100 million just
(37:33):
throw out a number, that'spretty big number.
But let's say you bought anorganization for $100 million
and it's full of angry, confused, disengaged people on the day
that the deal closes, is whatyou bought still worth $100
million?
Mackenzie Kilshaw (37:50):
No, yeah, probably not right.
Gary Ross (37:53):
But if you get up there with that good
communication you answerpeople's questions, you tell
them a story, you provide asmuch clarity as you possibly can
then they'll turn around andsay, all right, well, they
leveled with me and I guess I'llget back to work.
I've actually seen this happenin a project that I worked on a
while back.
I was working at a.
(38:14):
It was a publicly tradedcompany where everybody had
stock options and being apublicly traded company was a
big deal to everybody.
Well, the company was beingsold to a private equity group
and the company was gonna betaken private.
So no more stock price, no morestock options.
People were gonna get paid fortheir options but nothing more
additional.
This was really gonna rockpeople's world and I was brought
(38:39):
in early to put togethercommunication plan on this and,
by the way, a lot of the commshad to do with executive
visibility and answeringquestions, all the things that
we had talked about.
And the announcement came and weexecuted our plan and it went
really well and within 48 hoursof the announcement the company
(39:00):
had its fourth largest sales dayever in the history of the
company to that date.
To that date.
And the CEO said to me.
He said a big part of that isbecause of our communication
around this announcement.
Because that's exactly whathappened is we've reduced that
anxiety, we answered people'squestions, they turn around and
(39:21):
they got back to work, and sothat's what good communication
can get to.
It's real dollars, it's realmoney.
So do you wanna make money andpreserve the level of your
investment or do you wanna kissit goodbye because you might be
a little nervous aboutcommunicating?
So that's a real question thatbusiness leaders, managers,
(39:43):
business owners need to askthemselves Sometimes.
I learned a while back and Itold executives this I would say
to people as I was coachingthem sometimes doing the right
thing is kind of a pain in theneck, and I didn't use language
with that knife, but this is afamily podcast, right?
Mackenzie Kilshaw (40:06):
It's all good , Gary, we can say it if we
complete that.
Gary Ross (40:10):
I literally did tell a CEO to his face.
I said you know what sometimesdoing the right thing is a pain
in the ass.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (40:16):
And.
Gary Ross (40:16):
It's true too, but it's worth doing.
And so if you've got thatlittle guy on your shoulder
saying you know you better getout there and communicate about
this, even though it might betough and you've got some hard
things to say, and whatever yougo out there, you will preserve
and enhance productivity.
You'll preserve and enhance thevalue of your organization.
(40:39):
If you don't, then productivitywill go down.
Distractions will go up.
By the way, employee turnoverwill increase.
That costs real money as well,right, especially the labor
market that you know.
Who knows where things aregoing right now depends on your
industry, but that's reallyimportant.
Also, this is real money.
It's not just a nice to have,it's real money.
(41:01):
So that's what's at stake.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:03):
Yeah, for sure, and I mean your example
was big corporation, but itdoesn't matter what size you are
.
Shauna Foster (41:10):
Oh no, not at all.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:11):
Because this can happen in a small business
of 10 people, right?
Maybe someone's buying thebusiness, or maybe there's a new
employee or I call them acancerous employee right?
Someone that kind of causestrouble.
And you're right, if yourcommunication skills are where
they should be, you can reallymitigate a lot of these problems
(41:33):
that are potential problems.
Gary Ross (41:36):
Yeah, yep, yeah, awesome and reduce a lot of the
drama also, too, that can comealong with some of these things
as well.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:43):
Yeah, and drama in the workplace it
happens and it's never goodright?
Gary Ross (41:48):
Yeah, that's a drag on productivity as well 100%.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (41:52):
Do you have, I guess, throughout all of your
years, of your different careersand now with being a
communications expert, do youhave a most important lesson on
communication that you wannashare, or something that you
must do?
This to be a great communicator?
Gary Ross (42:13):
Keep communicating, keep communicating and remember
all the different ways in whichyou can communicate through your
actions, through your words,through, again, not
communicating there are, andthat's generally not a good
thing.
But the more radio silencethere is, the more gap that will
(42:36):
form between the people whoneed to communicate something
and the people who need to hearwhat's being communicated.
So figure out a way to do it.
And I know there are sometimesthere's people in our ears, like
lawyers or other folks, thatsay oh wait, we can't say this,
(42:58):
we shouldn't do that.
Well, and that's fine, and I'veloved working with lawyers on
those sorts of things throughoutmy career.
It's intellectually stimulating.
But we also have to be preparedto say well, there's a business
need to communicate somethinghere.
So as somebody Mr or MsAttorney, as someone who is here
(43:21):
to support the business, let'swork together on figuring out
what it is we can say, becausenot saying anything really
shouldn't be an option.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (43:29):
I agree and I just want to personally thank
you because I mean, I think Iknew it, but it was kind of a
light bulb moment for me wherenot communicating is
communicating, and it's so trueand I think that can be almost
more of a detriment than sayingsomething right.
Gary Ross (43:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (43:51):
Yeah, for sure.
Is there anything you wish youhad known, or maybe wish you had
known sooner?
With communication, I feel likewhen you have a journalist
background, you're really greatat speaking and writing, but
maybe there's something you'dlike to tell your younger self.
Gary Ross (44:10):
To tell my younger self.
I'll tell you where I got alittle bit in trouble earlier in
my career.
Not so much trouble, it'ssomething that held me back and
it was a lack of authenticity onmy part.
(44:31):
I was in line for a promotionand my boss, who was a VP,
wanted to promote me up a levelin his team.
But because I would work a lotwith the president of the
company, the president needed toapprove the promotion and he
didn't approve it.
He didn't deny it either.
He said, well, let's just waita little bit.
(44:52):
And he kind of kept me twistingin the wind for months at a time
and I didn't really understandwhat was happening.
Well, one day I think it waslate in the day I happened to go
into his office with a coupleother executives to talk about I
don't know what it was, but itwas late in the day, it was a
long day and around this guy Iused to just really tighten up
(45:14):
and stand on ceremony and justnot be myself.
But for whatever it was thisday I was just tired.
It was like whatever, I'll justgo in and I was a lot more
myself.
I joked around a little bit, alittle more questionable around
him than I normally was.
And the meeting ended and thenumber two guy in the company
followed me out the door and hesaid you know, if you had been
(45:36):
like that in every other meeting, you would have gotten the
promotion already.
And eventually I did get thepromotion.
But it was a huge learningexperience for me in that, in
working with with seniorexecutives and working with
people that I might haveinitially been intimidated by,
or with their roles and whatnot,you still need to be your
(45:59):
authentic self, because they'repeople too, and it's applied
just to managing up.
I think it applies to any othersituation where, if it's if
it's an individual or anorganization or just a situation
in general that we might beintimidated by, you need to take
a step back and say you know,I'm here for a reason.
I can be myself and and that'swhat people are expecting and
(46:22):
that's what people are wanting.
And that was a huge lesson forme earlier in my career and I
guess I had wished I had knownthat earlier, would have gotten
promoted earlier and wouldn'thave had all those months of of
angst yeah, you know what.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (46:34):
That's great.
That's great advice and I think, especially when we're living
in a world of digital and all ofthat stuff just being true and
genuine to who you are it isdefinitely going to get you
further, and likely further,faster.
Gary Ross (46:49):
Yeah, and people ask me, now that we're in this world
of virtual work, how do peopleneed to be communicating?
And, yeah, you know there aresome things that we need to make
sure we do, that we know how touse cameras and microphones and
lights and all that stuff.
And, yeah, yes, we have to bemore intentional to get somebody
on the other end of the zoom orwhatever it is that that we're
(47:11):
using, and so that that requiresmore, more discipline and more
intentionally.
But the end of the day, that'sthe same two people on the other
side of the camera and themicrophone.
And I think the more weremember that, the more
authentic, the more authenticand the more the more effective
our communication will be, evenin a, even in a virtual setting.
(47:34):
So, yeah, we've got to learnsome of the tactical things and
that kind of stuff, and surethat that comes with getting
used to a new piece oftechnology and this remote work
stuff has been going on for afew years now.
So hopefully we're, we're alllearning on that, but at the end
of the day, we're the samepeople that used to be in the
(47:55):
office together and and so thethe authenticity, the
genuineness, the forthcoming ofnature of communication, the
storytelling, knowing thateverything communicates, having
to know your audience all thatstuff still applies.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (48:14):
Totally true, Gary.
I know that there are going tobe so many people listening that
want to learn more about youand what you do, so where is the
best place for them to find you?
Gary Ross (48:25):
Well, you can email me at info, info at inside comms
.
com, that's i N, s, I, d, e, c,o M M S dot com.
Or you can go on to my mainwebsite, which is W W, W do
inside comms do com, spelled thesame way.
(48:47):
And then I have e learningcourses as well, which I think I
mentioned earlier aboutcommunication.
I also do custom e learning aswell.
So if anybody is looking for elearning courses for their
organization, let's talk aboutwhat it is you need, and it's
most likely something I can, Ican, produce for you.
But my e learning website,where there's communication
(49:08):
courses available for purchase,is plus P, l, u, s do inside
comm do com.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (49:15):
Gary, thank you so much.
I appreciate this so much andI'm a little light bulb moment
here with the non communicatingand I know that so many other
people are going to learn somevery valuable lessons here from
our little chat today.
So thank you so much for beingon.
I really appreciate it.
Gary Ross (49:32):
I'm so glad.
Thank you for having me.
This has been fun.
Mackenzie Kilshaw (49:34):
Yeah, that worked out great and to
everybody listening.
Thank you guys so much fortuning in and we will see you on
the next episode.
Thanks for listening to Winning.
Be sure to subscribe to get allof our new episodes.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about on social
media and leave a rating andreview wherever you listen to it
(49:56):
.
To catch all of the latest fromus, you can follow Winning
podcast on Instagram a winningpodcast, facebook Facebook
Winning podcast Podcast onTwitter at Winning winning.
Winning was created and isproduced by me, mackenzie
Mackenzie Music, created bySummer Furby, Firby editing by
Seth Armstrong.
(50:17):
Special thanks to Shauna Fosterfor voicing our opening and, of
course, a huge thank you tothis episode's guest.
Thanks again for listening andI'll see you on the next episode
.
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