November 15, 2022 • 24 mins
How do you know whether your startup has an accurate understanding of what exactly psychological safety is; why it’s so important; & then, how to foster it, effectively?
In her book, Teaming, Harvard Business School professor & researcher, Amy Edmondson describes psychological safety as the shared belief among team members that the team is safe for interpersonal risk taking. Noting that this involves, but goes beyond, interpersonal trust, Edmondson explains that it is characterized by a team climate of interpersonal trust & mutual respect, where people are comfortable being themselves. Edmondson describes psychological safety as a felt-sense of whether an environment is safe (e.g., not experiencing micro-aggressions or unconscious bias, having access to opportunities & advancements, feeling welcomed in the hybrid mix of socio-professional gatherings, believing work & contributions are valued). She indicates that when psychological safety is present the wellbeing & well-doing climate is enhanced: people feel comfortable taking risks, making mistakes, asking for help, & speaking up to challenge the status quo or improve processes. It includes a necessarily strong core of trust; & also requires compassion (compassion = empathy + action).
Startup therapist, Lisa Birnbaum; & startup coach, Marisa Birnbaum, have seen the understanding of psychological safety & the fostering of it, vary significantly between startups. During this episode, Lisa & Marisa, talk through exactly what psychological safety looks like & sounds like in the context of your startup; why psychological safety is so important for the success of your startup; as well as, how to effectively create, build, & cultivate psychological safety, in an ongoing way, within your startup.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lisa (00:01):
Hi there.
Lisa here.
Before we start the show.
I have a few disclaimers that Iwould like for you to keep in
mind as you listen to eachepisode.
First this show will cover avariety of topics related to
connection.
Mental health work and life.
And some of these topics may besensitive for you or for
(00:21):
someone, you know, I want tooffer you permission to choose
courage over comfort when itcomes to consuming sensitive
content and also permission torespect your own limits.
When it comes to consuming thiscontent, which may be sensitive
for you.
I also need to indicate thatwhile I am a licensed therapist.
(00:41):
I am not your therapist.
This show is not intended to bedirect professional advice, and
you should not use this as asubstitute for individualized
professional help.
Lastly, while I can assure youthat any of the coachable or
teachable content I share willhave demonstrated effectiveness
and our practices.
(01:02):
I use myself.
I can also assure you that I amimperfect.
And there are times when I donot act as skillfully as I would
have liked.
My goal is to act skillfullymost of the time.
And I very much want that foryou too.
Now with that said let's startthe show Hello, and welcome to
(01:27):
wire to connect the startupmental health podcast that keeps
you going every week with oureasily digestible lessons,
skills and stories that you canput into practice immediately.
I'm your host, your coach, yourteacher, Lisa Birnbaum.
I'm also a social worker, atherapist, and the co-founder of
strength squared, a therapycoaching and consulting practice
(01:48):
for startup founders in theirteams that I started with my
wife and co-founder in 2021.
The learnings we are sharinghere, come from a combination of
the lived experiences of thestartup founders and startup
team members.
We've worked with over theyears.
From our own lived experiences.
And from research backedstrategies too.
And we are so excited to be ableto share these insights here
(02:11):
with all of you now.
In today's episode, we'll bediscussing Whether your startup
has an accurate understanding ofwhat exactly psychological
safety is, why it's so importantand then how to foster it
effectively.
Today's episode is going to be abit different in that my wife
and co-founder Marissa will bejoining me on the mic today.
(02:31):
On a personal note.
And as some of our listenersknow at the time of this
recording, November, 2022.
Marissa.
And I have two young kids, Mayaand Parker.
Maya is three and Parker justturned And yes, like many of
you, we too are right in thethick of it.
As we try to navigate both workand life.
Anyway with Parker syllabi, itjust felt super hard to have us
(02:52):
both on And it's really thanksto Marissa that I've been able
to record these episodes at all.
There's nothing magical aboutParker turning one the other
day.
He's definitely still a baby whoneeds constant care, love and
attention.
It's a milestone though, forsure.
And so we wanted to give this atry.
Our plan from the beginning wasto have us co-host together.
And hopefully we'll be able toget there soon.
(03:14):
For today though, you'll get tomeet Marissa and spend some time
with both of us.
As we talk through this crucialtopic of psychological safety.
As I hope you can all appreciateso much of this is
interconnected.
We're going to break all of thisdown for you in today's episode.
So let's get into it.
Let's make some meaningfulconnections.
Support for today's show comesfrom our very own strength
(03:36):
squared.
What, if you really knew thetype of startup founder you are,
or the type of future startupfounder you are likely to
become, would it change yourtrajectory?
Would you do anythingdifferently?
Well, now you can better answerthese questions for yourself.
By taking the quiz we createdspecifically for startup
founders and future startupfounders.
(03:57):
In 10 pinpoint questions, you'llidentify your leadership
strengths as well as youropportunities for growth.
At the end, you'll see whichtype of startup founder you are.
Or which type of future startupfounder you are likely to become
so that you can move forwardwith the clarity, courage, and
confidence.
To ensure that your type isworking for you rather than
(04:18):
against you.
Just had to strength,square.com/quiz to take the
first step toward being the beststartup founder.
You can be.
That's S T R E N G T H S S Q U aR E d.com.
Forward slash quiz.
And we can't wait to hear whichtype of startup founder you are.
(04:43):
In today's episode, Marissa andI are talking through what
exactly psychological safety isto be sure you have an accurate
understanding of it and why it'sso important for the success of
your startup.
Then we'll get into how toestablish, build and cultivate
that psych safety effectively.
And now a long overdue and verywarm welcome to my wife and
co-founder Marissa Birnbaum.
(05:04):
Welcome to the show, Marissa.
So excited to have Thanks somuch.
I'm very happy to be here toprovide some context into our
topic for today.
Why don't we start by having youtell our listeners about
Google's now famous researchstudy project Aristotle.
Sure.
So before I started working withGooglers, Google conducted a
(05:25):
multi-year research study.
To understand the dynamics thatdefine their most successful
teams.
What they found was thatpsychological safety.
Which in its most simplisticterms is the belief that you can
speak up without the fear ofembarrassment or the fear of
punishment.
Was by far the most important ofthe dynamics that set their most
successful teams apart.
I know from my own experiencesand from the experiences of my
(05:48):
clients.
As well as from the researchthat when psychological safety
is experienced on a team, teammembers then feel safe enough to
take risks and to be vulnerablein front of each other, which
results in effectivecollaboration and feedback,
healthy, challenging of one,another greater creativity and
innovation and strongerconnections with each other.
Psychological safety is socrucial to the success of a team
(06:09):
that it is experienced as morevaluable than resources, money,
and training.
In fact, a lack of psych safety,stifles productivity,
creativity, and innovation.
It deters risk-taking andperpetuates only harmful
competition.
Great.
Thanks for that.
I think at the time of thisrecording, again, it's November
20, 20, too many people workingin tech will have at least heard
(06:33):
of psychological safety, whichwas coined by Harvard business
school, professor andresearcher, Amy Edmondson, who
also gave an excellent Ted talkon the topic.
So why do you think more teamshaven't focused on providing
this kind of support to oneanother good question.
I think there's a few factors atEven after everything that's
(06:56):
been written on the topic, thereare some who have managed to
survive despite skirting theissue.
And therefore haven'tappreciated its importance or
its necessity.
There are others who hold thefaulty belief that creating this
sense of safety would meanhaving a lack of accountability.
When in reality, psychologicalsafety and accountability are
not at all mutually exclusive.
They are two differentdimensions and both are
(07:17):
important.
Also holding people accountablewithout them feeling
psychologically safe, onlybreeds a climate of heightened,
unnecessary anxiety.
There are some who may want tocreate the sense of safety and
don't know where to start.
And then there are others whomay think they've created this
sense of safety and haven't, orperhaps they've created it at
some point and haven'tcultivated it in an ongoing way.
(07:41):
Creating building andcultivating psychological safety
takes intention, time andeffort.
It's not the same asimplementing a new software
development process or followinga checklist to finish a project.
What is needed first andforemost is for founders and
leaders to really understandwhat psychological safety is to
then model it.
By example, starting at the top.
(08:01):
And to routinely revisit it asthings change and Okay.
So Lisa, can you break downpsychological safety for us so
that our listeners can reallyunderstand what it is?
And then maybe talk through howyou would model it for others.
Absolutely the way I think aboutpsychological safety is like
(08:22):
this.
If I've created a culture on myteam that is truly
psychologically safe, a fewthings are not negotiable.
First, every single person on myteam must genuinely believe that
they are empowered to speak upabout concerns.
And suggest ideas without thesenegatively impacting them in
some This needs to be felt bythose who are new to the team.
(08:42):
And by those who have been withthe company since day one, By
those who have worked at anumber of other startups and by
those who have never worked at astartup by By those who have
tons of other work experiences.
And by those who are juststarting out.
And for folks of marginalizedidentities, I would say this is
even more important to ensuremodeling this at the top starts
by asking everyone somethinglike.
(09:04):
What would support from me, looklike encouraging each of them to
tease out what support would bemost And then either ensuring I
support them in those ways orthat I find a suitable
alternative for supporting them.
I think it's most useful whenthis is done by meeting with
each team member individually.
Some additional and relativelysimple questions I'd ask each of
them routinely are, how arethings What would you like to
(09:28):
see change?
How can I help and what issomething I could do to make
things easier on you?
Then I keep track of theirpreferences and use them to
build a project schedule and aneffective workflow.
Next, anyone on my team,including myself who has been
around since day one.
I genuinely believe that they donot have all the answers that
simply because they are doingsomething that's working doesn't
(09:50):
mean that's the only way ofdoing it.
And doesn't mean that's the mostdesirable way of doing And must
be open both to new suggestionsideas and solutions and open to
revisiting previous suggestionsideas and solutions Adopting a
mindset of I'm here to get itright.
Not to be right.
Is a necessity.
Which can be especially hard forfounders and leaders who believe
(10:10):
we understand the businessbetter than anyone.
Often, this means founders andleaders needing to find creative
ways of encouraging others tospeak before speaking ourselves,
when I've seen founders do thiswell, they tend to frame the
work as a learning problem, notan execution problem.
They make explicit, both theenormous uncertainty inherent
within startups.
(10:31):
As well as the enormousinterdependence required of each
team.
Modeling this at the top couldsound like.
We don't know exactly how thiswill turn out.
We've got to have everybody'sbrains and voices in the game.
This creates a strong rationalefor speaking up.
When I've seen founders do thiswhile they also acknowledge
their own, valuability modelingthis at the top could sound like
(10:53):
I may miss something here.
I very much want to hear fromeach This creates an additional
sense of safety for speakingNext thing is that everyone on
my team.
Must demonstrate a willingnessto enter into conversations with
an open As opposed to alreadycoming to the table with fixed
beliefs around what makes for agood idea or a bad idea.
(11:15):
And who gets to suggest theseideas in the first place
Everyone on my team needs tounderstand that the idea we wind
up going with might come fromsomeone who is more junior.
When I've seen founders do thiswhile they ask lots of questions
and take an approach of genuinecuriosity, which serves as a
sort of natural antidote tojudgment.
Modeling this at the top, itsounds something like, help me
(11:38):
understand how you reached thisconclusion or.
Say more about how you imaginethis playing out.
This creates a real need forvoice and encouragement for
speaking up rather than doing orsaying something that is likely
to silence and facilitateshutting down.
Useful starting points for thisare structuring meetings in a
way that encourages everyone totalk.
(11:59):
And allows enough time foreveryone to talk that doesn't
facilitate or tolerate teammembers interrupting one
another.
And that uses active listeningskills to ensure an accurate
understanding of what's beingsaid, rather than making
unnecessary assumptions.
And just so our listeners knowactive listening is where you
say back to the person speaking.
(12:21):
What you understood to havesaid, and then you give them an
opportunity to confirm or toclarify.
This could sound something like,from what I'm hearing, it sounds
like you think we have placedtoo much importance on speed of
response time in our SLS.
And not enough importance onunderstanding what each of our
customer's actual concerns are.
(12:43):
In order to respond in athoughtful way that actually
helps them.
I'm also hearing you say thatbecause we've prioritized speed
over quality.
We've generated additionalcustomer support tickets that
don't need to exist in an effortto close more tickets.
Am I understanding thiscorrectly.
Yes.
Excellent.
(13:03):
Thanks for jumping in there todemonstrate what active
listening sounds like.
You're welcome.
Why don't you continue with whatyou believe are the
non-negotiables that have toexist in order to create a team
culture?
And company.
Culture that is trulypsychologically safe.
Right.
Thank you.
So the last of thesenon-negotiables is for every
(13:23):
single person on a team,regardless of their job title,
to engage in behaviors thatflatten hierarchy and allow
folks to experience being on aneven playing field when
brainstorming and workingthrough problems.
It's crucial that we allconsider what types of privilege
we hold relative to one And whateach of us can do personally to
minimize existing powerdifferentials.
(13:44):
A helpful reminder is for eachperson to challenge themselves
to either step up or step backprior to entering into any
conversation, meeting orinteraction, depending on who
else is present relative tothemselves.
Another easy way to engage inbehaviors.
Aimed at flattening hierarchyduring meetings is to share
responsibilities.
When I've seen founders do thiswell, they create about four
(14:06):
special roles for folks,including themselves to take on
during meetings.
Basically using a rotatingschedule that remains ongoing.
Everyone gets a turn in thesespecial roles.
My favorite combination I'veseen of these four special roles
I think is for one person to beresponsible for leading everyone
in a 10 minute mindfulnesspractice or gratitude practice
to start the meeting One personresponsible for facilitating the
(14:28):
meaning itself.
Meaning holding everyoneaccountable to their determined
agenda and the determined timeestimates, and then one person
responsible for helping the teamnotice moments during the
meeting where someone might beprioritizing something else over
the company's core values.
And when I've seen this, it, itwasn't intended to negatively
judge shame or blame.
Whoever was doing this.
(14:49):
It was instead meant to bringawareness to it so that it could
be talked about openly andhonestly, and then one person
responsible for taking notesduring the meeting, in the form
of, of meeting minutes.
In addition to this approach,working to build psychological
safety.
And extra benefit, a rippleeffect that often results from
this is that team members whotypically have a harder time
(15:10):
speaking up report feelingincreasingly more comfortable
doing so, and increasingly moreconfident doing so.
In meetings generally afterstepping into one of these four
special roles, while those whohave an easier time speaking up,
report, viewing these folks inan increasingly more favorable
light, and increasingly seekingout their input more often.
(15:30):
Which in my opinion, just createsuch a beautiful feedback loop.
Wow.
That's a lot to digest, Anythingelse we haven't covered.
Actually, yes.
One more thing I'd like to add.
In its most simplistic terms.
If psychological safety is thebelief that we can speak up
(15:50):
without the fear ofembarrassment or the fear of
punishment.
Along with the additionaldetails we just talked through.
And I'm hoping that this may noteven be necessary for me to say.
This doesn't mean speakingwithout limits or in ways that
utilize our power or privilegeto speak in ways that are
oppressive or othering to folks.
You.
And I both are very intentionalabout our dialectical worldview.
(16:13):
We recognize that we humans arecomplicated imperfect beings and
that seemingly oppositeperspectives or paradoxes can
and often do simultaneouslyexist.
And we are both deeply committedto looking for that kernel of
truth, to another's perspective.
These are guiding principlesthat are fundamental to the way
we approach our work and ourlives.
And these are all very much inline with the concept of
(16:34):
psychological safety that said,I feel the need to be clear
about the fact that if there wasever a question within systems
that devalue and dehumanizepeople, there is no middle path
that we are willing to Thisdoesn't mean shaming and blaming
others.
It does, however, me anddismantling oppressive systems,
holding people accountable fortheir actions.
(16:56):
And supporting a person's basichuman rights above all else.
Good thing I asked as we hopeyou've come to appreciate so
much of this is interconnected.
We'll be back to recap all ofthese connections right after
this.
Support for today's show comesfrom our very own strengths
(17:17):
squared, a therapy coaching andconsulting practice partnering
with startup founders andstartup teams.
At the strength squared.
Our goal is not to have to treatburnout after the fact, and
instead to prevent burnout fromhappening in the first place, we
do this by equipping startupfounders in their teams with the
necessary skills to buildsustainable mentally healthy
(17:38):
work cultures of collectivecare, collective accountability,
and intentional work-lifeintegration.
If you are a startup founder, astartup team member, or someone
who might be a future startupfounder, and are navigating a
challenging topic that you wouldlike addressed on our show.
Or if you have a question youwould like answered on our show.
(17:59):
Please send an email topodcast@strengthsquared.com For
a chance to have your topicaddressed or to have your
question answered on a futureepisode.
Again, that's P O D C A S T.
at.
S T R E N G T H S S Q U A R Ed.com.
(18:24):
And we'll keep our eyes out foryour topics and for your
questions.
Let's go ahead and pull allthese connections together.
To recap.
If I've created a culture on myteam that is truly
psychologically safe, a fewthings are not negotiable.
First, every single person on myteam must genuinely believe that
(18:44):
they are empowered to speak upabout concerns and suggest ideas
without these negativelyimpacting them in some way.
Next, anyone on my team,including myself who has been
around since day one.
Must genuinely believe that theydo not have all the answers that
simply because they are doingsomething that's working doesn't
mean that's the only way ofdoing it.
And doesn't mean that's the mostdesirable way of doing it.
(19:07):
And must be open both to newsuggestions, ideas, and
solutions.
And open to revisiting previoussuggestions, ideas, and
solutions.
Next everyone on my team mustdemonstrate a willingness to
enter into conversations with anopen mind.
As opposed to already coming tothe table with fixed beliefs
around what makes for a goodidea or a bad idea.
(19:28):
And who gets to suggest theseideas in the first place.
And lastly every single personon my team regardless of their
job title needs to engage inbehaviors that flattened
hierarchy and allow folks toexperience being on an even
playing field when brainstormingand working through problems
Thank you so much for listeningto today's episode of fire to
(19:50):
connect.
And I hope this was helpful.
If you've got a question youwould like answered on our show.
Just send an email topodcast@strengthsquared.com.
That's P O D C a St@strengthssquared.com.
Or use the link in the shownotes.
(20:12):
And if you would like a chanceto win a free startup coaching
session which retails for$500,keep your ears out in the very
next section for theinstructions That wraps up
today's episode.
I hope you loved it.
Don't forget to hit subscribe orfollow on your favorite podcast
app.
So you don't miss an episode.
(20:33):
And we are currently giving awayour free startup coaching
session.
If you want to win a freecoaching session.
Just leave us a rating andbrighter review on apple
podcasts or the podcast app ofyour choice.
And you'll be entered in ourweekly random draw.
This type of startup coachingsession retails for$500 and can
be yours for free by rating andwriting a review of our podcast.
(20:57):
Then listen in next week to seeif you won it's that simple
thanks so much in advance forsupporting us on apple podcasts
or on the podcast app of yourchoice Before we go, we want to
leave you with this like manythings.
Establishing psychologicalsafety is not a one and done
thing.
It requires ongoing cultivationand re-establishing along the
(21:19):
way.
Creating what Dr.
Bernay.
Brown re refers to as a safecontainer.
Is done by asking your team whatthey need in order to feel open
and safe in a givenconversation.
This is one of the easiestpractices to implement.
Yet many founders leaders andteams don't know to ask this.
(21:40):
There are a number of thingsthat can get in the way of
psychological safety.
The behaviors we've seen mostoften get in the way of psych
safety at startups are behaviorslike not recognizing judgment as
such.
Giving unsolicited advice,interrupting.
Maintaining unclear boundariesand sharing information outside
(22:01):
of team meetings.
You know, like the meeting afterthe meeting that not everyone is
in on.
On the other hand, the behaviorsthat folks need from their
founders, leaders and teams,whether startup or otherwise.
Almost always includeacknowledging and reserving
judgment.
Staying curious, listening, andasking questions, being clear
(22:21):
about what is known and beinghonest about what is unknown.
And not sharing information orexperience about others that
aren't yours to share.
Invest 20 minutes in creatingpsychological safety before any
discussion meeting orconversation.
The return on investment is hugein terms of building trust and
improving the quality offeedback and conversation.
(22:45):
Make your intention of creatingsafety explicit and get your
team's help on co-creating itand effectively implementing it
together.
Okay.
That's it for us for today.
Be sure to tune into our nextepisode.
Episode 12.
can't wait to connect with youThen Again, Thank you to my
(23:06):
incredibly talented cousin,Andrew Fisher.
For writing and playing theoriginal music for the show.
And from the bottom of my heart.
Thank you to my amazing lifepartner and co-founder Marissa.
For your belief in me and in theshow for everything you do for
our family and for strengthsquared, for everything you are
doing behind the scenes for wireto connect.
(23:28):
And without whom none of thiswould be possible.
Lastly and perhaps mostimportantly, thank you so much
to all of you who are listeningfor supporting us by choosing to
spend your time with us, forconnecting with us and for
keeping an open mind and an openheart.
I'll look forward to connectingwith you in next week's episode
and until then take good careand remember, we are all wired
(23:52):
to connect.
Hi there.
Lisa here.
Before we start the show.
I have a few disclaimers that Iwould like for you to keep in
mind as you listen to eachepisode.
First this show will cover avariety of topics related to
connection.
Mental health work and life.
And some of these topics may besensitive for you or for
(00:21):
someone, you know, I want tooffer you permission to choose
courage over comfort when itcomes to consuming sensitive
content and also permission torespect your own limits.
When it comes to consuming thiscontent, which may be sensitive
for you.
I also need to indicate thatwhile I am a licensed therapist.
(00:41):
I am not your therapist.
This show is not intended to bedirect professional advice, and
you should not use this as asubstitute for individualized
professional help.
Lastly, while I can assure youthat any of the coachable or
teachable content I share willhave demonstrated effectiveness
and our practices.
(01:02):
I use myself.
I can also assure you that I amimperfect.
And there are times when I donot act as skillfully as I would
have liked.
My goal is to act skillfullymost of the time.
And I very much want that foryou too.
Now with that said let's startthe show Hello, and welcome to
(01:27):
wire to connect the startupmental health podcast that keeps
you going every week with oureasily digestible lessons,
skills and stories that you canput into practice immediately.
I'm your host, your coach, yourteacher, Lisa Birnbaum.
I'm also a social worker, atherapist, and the co-founder of
strength squared, a therapycoaching and consulting practice
(01:48):
for startup founders in theirteams that I started with my
wife and co-founder in 2021.
The learnings we are sharinghere, come from a combination of
the lived experiences of thestartup founders and startup
team members.
We've worked with over theyears.
From our own lived experiences.
And from research backedstrategies too.
And we are so excited to be ableto share these insights here
(02:11):
with all of you now.
In today's episode, we'll bediscussing Whether your startup
has an accurate understanding ofwhat exactly psychological
safety is, why it's so importantand then how to foster it
effectively.
Today's episode is going to be abit different in that my wife
and co-founder Marissa will bejoining me on the mic today.
(02:31):
On a personal note.
And as some of our listenersknow at the time of this
recording, November, 2022.
Marissa.
And I have two young kids, Mayaand Parker.
Maya is three and Parker justturned And yes, like many of
you, we too are right in thethick of it.
As we try to navigate both workand life.
Anyway with Parker syllabi, itjust felt super hard to have us
(02:52):
both on And it's really thanksto Marissa that I've been able
to record these episodes at all.
There's nothing magical aboutParker turning one the other
day.
He's definitely still a baby whoneeds constant care, love and
attention.
It's a milestone though, forsure.
And so we wanted to give this atry.
Our plan from the beginning wasto have us co-host together.
And hopefully we'll be able toget there soon.
(03:14):
For today though, you'll get tomeet Marissa and spend some time
with both of us.
As we talk through this crucialtopic of psychological safety.
As I hope you can all appreciateso much of this is
interconnected.
We're going to break all of thisdown for you in today's episode.
So let's get into it.
Let's make some meaningfulconnections.
Support for today's show comesfrom our very own strength
(03:36):
squared.
What, if you really knew thetype of startup founder you are,
or the type of future startupfounder you are likely to
become, would it change yourtrajectory?
Would you do anythingdifferently?
Well, now you can better answerthese questions for yourself.
By taking the quiz we createdspecifically for startup
founders and future startupfounders.
(03:57):
In 10 pinpoint questions, you'llidentify your leadership
strengths as well as youropportunities for growth.
At the end, you'll see whichtype of startup founder you are.
Or which type of future startupfounder you are likely to become
so that you can move forwardwith the clarity, courage, and
confidence.
To ensure that your type isworking for you rather than
(04:18):
against you.
Just had to strength,square.com/quiz to take the
first step toward being the beststartup founder.
You can be.
That's S T R E N G T H S S Q U aR E d.com.
Forward slash quiz.
And we can't wait to hear whichtype of startup founder you are.
(04:43):
In today's episode, Marissa andI are talking through what
exactly psychological safety isto be sure you have an accurate
understanding of it and why it'sso important for the success of
your startup.
Then we'll get into how toestablish, build and cultivate
that psych safety effectively.
And now a long overdue and verywarm welcome to my wife and
co-founder Marissa Birnbaum.
(05:04):
Welcome to the show, Marissa.
So excited to have Thanks somuch.
I'm very happy to be here toprovide some context into our
topic for today.
Why don't we start by having youtell our listeners about
Google's now famous researchstudy project Aristotle.
Sure.
So before I started working withGooglers, Google conducted a
(05:25):
multi-year research study.
To understand the dynamics thatdefine their most successful
teams.
What they found was thatpsychological safety.
Which in its most simplisticterms is the belief that you can
speak up without the fear ofembarrassment or the fear of
punishment.
Was by far the most important ofthe dynamics that set their most
successful teams apart.
I know from my own experiencesand from the experiences of my
(05:48):
clients.
As well as from the researchthat when psychological safety
is experienced on a team, teammembers then feel safe enough to
take risks and to be vulnerablein front of each other, which
results in effectivecollaboration and feedback,
healthy, challenging of one,another greater creativity and
innovation and strongerconnections with each other.
Psychological safety is socrucial to the success of a team
(06:09):
that it is experienced as morevaluable than resources, money,
and training.
In fact, a lack of psych safety,stifles productivity,
creativity, and innovation.
It deters risk-taking andperpetuates only harmful
competition.
Great.
Thanks for that.
I think at the time of thisrecording, again, it's November
20, 20, too many people workingin tech will have at least heard
(06:33):
of psychological safety, whichwas coined by Harvard business
school, professor andresearcher, Amy Edmondson, who
also gave an excellent Ted talkon the topic.
So why do you think more teamshaven't focused on providing
this kind of support to oneanother good question.
I think there's a few factors atEven after everything that's
(06:56):
been written on the topic, thereare some who have managed to
survive despite skirting theissue.
And therefore haven'tappreciated its importance or
its necessity.
There are others who hold thefaulty belief that creating this
sense of safety would meanhaving a lack of accountability.
When in reality, psychologicalsafety and accountability are
not at all mutually exclusive.
They are two differentdimensions and both are
(07:17):
important.
Also holding people accountablewithout them feeling
psychologically safe, onlybreeds a climate of heightened,
unnecessary anxiety.
There are some who may want tocreate the sense of safety and
don't know where to start.
And then there are others whomay think they've created this
sense of safety and haven't, orperhaps they've created it at
some point and haven'tcultivated it in an ongoing way.
(07:41):
Creating building andcultivating psychological safety
takes intention, time andeffort.
It's not the same asimplementing a new software
development process or followinga checklist to finish a project.
What is needed first andforemost is for founders and
leaders to really understandwhat psychological safety is to
then model it.
By example, starting at the top.
(08:01):
And to routinely revisit it asthings change and Okay.
So Lisa, can you break downpsychological safety for us so
that our listeners can reallyunderstand what it is?
And then maybe talk through howyou would model it for others.
Absolutely the way I think aboutpsychological safety is like
(08:22):
this.
If I've created a culture on myteam that is truly
psychologically safe, a fewthings are not negotiable.
First, every single person on myteam must genuinely believe that
they are empowered to speak upabout concerns.
And suggest ideas without thesenegatively impacting them in
some This needs to be felt bythose who are new to the team.
(08:42):
And by those who have been withthe company since day one, By
those who have worked at anumber of other startups and by
those who have never worked at astartup by By those who have
tons of other work experiences.
And by those who are juststarting out.
And for folks of marginalizedidentities, I would say this is
even more important to ensuremodeling this at the top starts
by asking everyone somethinglike.
(09:04):
What would support from me, looklike encouraging each of them to
tease out what support would bemost And then either ensuring I
support them in those ways orthat I find a suitable
alternative for supporting them.
I think it's most useful whenthis is done by meeting with
each team member individually.
Some additional and relativelysimple questions I'd ask each of
them routinely are, how arethings What would you like to
(09:28):
see change?
How can I help and what issomething I could do to make
things easier on you?
Then I keep track of theirpreferences and use them to
build a project schedule and aneffective workflow.
Next, anyone on my team,including myself who has been
around since day one.
I genuinely believe that they donot have all the answers that
simply because they are doingsomething that's working doesn't
(09:50):
mean that's the only way ofdoing it.
And doesn't mean that's the mostdesirable way of doing And must
be open both to new suggestionsideas and solutions and open to
revisiting previous suggestionsideas and solutions Adopting a
mindset of I'm here to get itright.
Not to be right.
Is a necessity.
Which can be especially hard forfounders and leaders who believe
(10:10):
we understand the businessbetter than anyone.
Often, this means founders andleaders needing to find creative
ways of encouraging others tospeak before speaking ourselves,
when I've seen founders do thiswell, they tend to frame the
work as a learning problem, notan execution problem.
They make explicit, both theenormous uncertainty inherent
within startups.
(10:31):
As well as the enormousinterdependence required of each
team.
Modeling this at the top couldsound like.
We don't know exactly how thiswill turn out.
We've got to have everybody'sbrains and voices in the game.
This creates a strong rationalefor speaking up.
When I've seen founders do thiswhile they also acknowledge
their own, valuability modelingthis at the top could sound like
(10:53):
I may miss something here.
I very much want to hear fromeach This creates an additional
sense of safety for speakingNext thing is that everyone on
my team.
Must demonstrate a willingnessto enter into conversations with
an open As opposed to alreadycoming to the table with fixed
beliefs around what makes for agood idea or a bad idea.
(11:15):
And who gets to suggest theseideas in the first place
Everyone on my team needs tounderstand that the idea we wind
up going with might come fromsomeone who is more junior.
When I've seen founders do thiswhile they ask lots of questions
and take an approach of genuinecuriosity, which serves as a
sort of natural antidote tojudgment.
Modeling this at the top, itsounds something like, help me
(11:38):
understand how you reached thisconclusion or.
Say more about how you imaginethis playing out.
This creates a real need forvoice and encouragement for
speaking up rather than doing orsaying something that is likely
to silence and facilitateshutting down.
Useful starting points for thisare structuring meetings in a
way that encourages everyone totalk.
(11:59):
And allows enough time foreveryone to talk that doesn't
facilitate or tolerate teammembers interrupting one
another.
And that uses active listeningskills to ensure an accurate
understanding of what's beingsaid, rather than making
unnecessary assumptions.
And just so our listeners knowactive listening is where you
say back to the person speaking.
(12:21):
What you understood to havesaid, and then you give them an
opportunity to confirm or toclarify.
This could sound something like,from what I'm hearing, it sounds
like you think we have placedtoo much importance on speed of
response time in our SLS.
And not enough importance onunderstanding what each of our
customer's actual concerns are.
(12:43):
In order to respond in athoughtful way that actually
helps them.
I'm also hearing you say thatbecause we've prioritized speed
over quality.
We've generated additionalcustomer support tickets that
don't need to exist in an effortto close more tickets.
Am I understanding thiscorrectly.
Yes.
Excellent.
(13:03):
Thanks for jumping in there todemonstrate what active
listening sounds like.
You're welcome.
Why don't you continue with whatyou believe are the
non-negotiables that have toexist in order to create a team
culture?
And company.
Culture that is trulypsychologically safe.
Right.
Thank you.
So the last of thesenon-negotiables is for every
(13:23):
single person on a team,regardless of their job title,
to engage in behaviors thatflatten hierarchy and allow
folks to experience being on aneven playing field when
brainstorming and workingthrough problems.
It's crucial that we allconsider what types of privilege
we hold relative to one And whateach of us can do personally to
minimize existing powerdifferentials.
(13:44):
A helpful reminder is for eachperson to challenge themselves
to either step up or step backprior to entering into any
conversation, meeting orinteraction, depending on who
else is present relative tothemselves.
Another easy way to engage inbehaviors.
Aimed at flattening hierarchyduring meetings is to share
responsibilities.
When I've seen founders do thiswell, they create about four
(14:06):
special roles for folks,including themselves to take on
during meetings.
Basically using a rotatingschedule that remains ongoing.
Everyone gets a turn in thesespecial roles.
My favorite combination I'veseen of these four special roles
I think is for one person to beresponsible for leading everyone
in a 10 minute mindfulnesspractice or gratitude practice
to start the meeting One personresponsible for facilitating the
(14:28):
meaning itself.
Meaning holding everyoneaccountable to their determined
agenda and the determined timeestimates, and then one person
responsible for helping the teamnotice moments during the
meeting where someone might beprioritizing something else over
the company's core values.
And when I've seen this, it, itwasn't intended to negatively
judge shame or blame.
Whoever was doing this.
(14:49):
It was instead meant to bringawareness to it so that it could
be talked about openly andhonestly, and then one person
responsible for taking notesduring the meeting, in the form
of, of meeting minutes.
In addition to this approach,working to build psychological
safety.
And extra benefit, a rippleeffect that often results from
this is that team members whotypically have a harder time
(15:10):
speaking up report feelingincreasingly more comfortable
doing so, and increasingly moreconfident doing so.
In meetings generally afterstepping into one of these four
special roles, while those whohave an easier time speaking up,
report, viewing these folks inan increasingly more favorable
light, and increasingly seekingout their input more often.
(15:30):
Which in my opinion, just createsuch a beautiful feedback loop.
Wow.
That's a lot to digest, Anythingelse we haven't covered.
Actually, yes.
One more thing I'd like to add.
In its most simplistic terms.
If psychological safety is thebelief that we can speak up
(15:50):
without the fear ofembarrassment or the fear of
punishment.
Along with the additionaldetails we just talked through.
And I'm hoping that this may noteven be necessary for me to say.
This doesn't mean speakingwithout limits or in ways that
utilize our power or privilegeto speak in ways that are
oppressive or othering to folks.
You.
And I both are very intentionalabout our dialectical worldview.
(16:13):
We recognize that we humans arecomplicated imperfect beings and
that seemingly oppositeperspectives or paradoxes can
and often do simultaneouslyexist.
And we are both deeply committedto looking for that kernel of
truth, to another's perspective.
These are guiding principlesthat are fundamental to the way
we approach our work and ourlives.
And these are all very much inline with the concept of
(16:34):
psychological safety that said,I feel the need to be clear
about the fact that if there wasever a question within systems
that devalue and dehumanizepeople, there is no middle path
that we are willing to Thisdoesn't mean shaming and blaming
others.
It does, however, me anddismantling oppressive systems,
holding people accountable fortheir actions.
(16:56):
And supporting a person's basichuman rights above all else.
Good thing I asked as we hopeyou've come to appreciate so
much of this is interconnected.
We'll be back to recap all ofthese connections right after
this.
Support for today's show comesfrom our very own strengths
(17:17):
squared, a therapy coaching andconsulting practice partnering
with startup founders andstartup teams.
At the strength squared.
Our goal is not to have to treatburnout after the fact, and
instead to prevent burnout fromhappening in the first place, we
do this by equipping startupfounders in their teams with the
necessary skills to buildsustainable mentally healthy
(17:38):
work cultures of collectivecare, collective accountability,
and intentional work-lifeintegration.
If you are a startup founder, astartup team member, or someone
who might be a future startupfounder, and are navigating a
challenging topic that you wouldlike addressed on our show.
Or if you have a question youwould like answered on our show.
(17:59):
Please send an email topodcast@strengthsquared.com For
a chance to have your topicaddressed or to have your
question answered on a futureepisode.
Again, that's P O D C A S T.
at.
S T R E N G T H S S Q U A R Ed.com.
(18:24):
And we'll keep our eyes out foryour topics and for your
questions.
Let's go ahead and pull allthese connections together.
To recap.
If I've created a culture on myteam that is truly
psychologically safe, a fewthings are not negotiable.
First, every single person on myteam must genuinely believe that
(18:44):
they are empowered to speak upabout concerns and suggest ideas
without these negativelyimpacting them in some way.
Next, anyone on my team,including myself who has been
around since day one.
Must genuinely believe that theydo not have all the answers that
simply because they are doingsomething that's working doesn't
mean that's the only way ofdoing it.
And doesn't mean that's the mostdesirable way of doing it.
(19:07):
And must be open both to newsuggestions, ideas, and
solutions.
And open to revisiting previoussuggestions, ideas, and
solutions.
Next everyone on my team mustdemonstrate a willingness to
enter into conversations with anopen mind.
As opposed to already coming tothe table with fixed beliefs
around what makes for a goodidea or a bad idea.
(19:28):
And who gets to suggest theseideas in the first place.
And lastly every single personon my team regardless of their
job title needs to engage inbehaviors that flattened
hierarchy and allow folks toexperience being on an even
playing field when brainstormingand working through problems
Thank you so much for listeningto today's episode of fire to
(19:50):
connect.
And I hope this was helpful.
If you've got a question youwould like answered on our show.
Just send an email topodcast@strengthsquared.com.
That's P O D C a St@strengthssquared.com.
Or use the link in the shownotes.
(20:12):
And if you would like a chanceto win a free startup coaching
session which retails for$500,keep your ears out in the very
next section for theinstructions That wraps up
today's episode.
I hope you loved it.
Don't forget to hit subscribe orfollow on your favorite podcast
app.
So you don't miss an episode.
(20:33):
And we are currently giving awayour free startup coaching
session.
If you want to win a freecoaching session.
Just leave us a rating andbrighter review on apple
podcasts or the podcast app ofyour choice.
And you'll be entered in ourweekly random draw.
This type of startup coachingsession retails for$500 and can
be yours for free by rating andwriting a review of our podcast.
(20:57):
Then listen in next week to seeif you won it's that simple
thanks so much in advance forsupporting us on apple podcasts
or on the podcast app of yourchoice Before we go, we want to
leave you with this like manythings.
Establishing psychologicalsafety is not a one and done
thing.
It requires ongoing cultivationand re-establishing along the
(21:19):
way.
Creating what Dr.
Bernay.
Brown re refers to as a safecontainer.
Is done by asking your team whatthey need in order to feel open
and safe in a givenconversation.
This is one of the easiestpractices to implement.
Yet many founders leaders andteams don't know to ask this.
(21:40):
There are a number of thingsthat can get in the way of
psychological safety.
The behaviors we've seen mostoften get in the way of psych
safety at startups are behaviorslike not recognizing judgment as
such.
Giving unsolicited advice,interrupting.
Maintaining unclear boundariesand sharing information outside
(22:01):
of team meetings.
You know, like the meeting afterthe meeting that not everyone is
in on.
On the other hand, the behaviorsthat folks need from their
founders, leaders and teams,whether startup or otherwise.
Almost always includeacknowledging and reserving
judgment.
Staying curious, listening, andasking questions, being clear
(22:21):
about what is known and beinghonest about what is unknown.
And not sharing information orexperience about others that
aren't yours to share.
Invest 20 minutes in creatingpsychological safety before any
discussion meeting orconversation.
The return on investment is hugein terms of building trust and
improving the quality offeedback and conversation.
(22:45):
Make your intention of creatingsafety explicit and get your
team's help on co-creating itand effectively implementing it
together.
Okay.
That's it for us for today.
Be sure to tune into our nextepisode.
Episode 12.
can't wait to connect with youThen Again, Thank you to my
(23:06):
incredibly talented cousin,Andrew Fisher.
For writing and playing theoriginal music for the show.
And from the bottom of my heart.
Thank you to my amazing lifepartner and co-founder Marissa.
For your belief in me and in theshow for everything you do for
our family and for strengthsquared, for everything you are
doing behind the scenes for wireto connect.
(23:28):
And without whom none of thiswould be possible.
Lastly and perhaps mostimportantly, thank you so much
to all of you who are listeningfor supporting us by choosing to
spend your time with us, forconnecting with us and for
keeping an open mind and an openheart.
I'll look forward to connectingwith you in next week's episode
and until then take good careand remember, we are all wired
(23:52):
to connect.
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