April 18, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of Wisdom on the Front Porch, LS Kirkpatrick chats with Kevin Thallemer about his holistic leadership coaching approach. They discuss optimal group sizes, traits of high-performing teams, and the psychoanalytic approach to constructive conflict. Kevin shares conflict resolution strategies and insights on workplace fulfillment, team communication, and managing generational divides. He emphasizes the importance of facilitation and innovation in teams and offers advice on training future leaders. The episode concludes with Kevin's contact information and final thoughts.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome to another episode with Wisdom on theFront Porch and on my Front Porch is Kevin.
Thank you so much for being here today.
Hi, Ellis.
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm really excited to be here.
I love the work you do.
Oh, awesome.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
So tell us about your work and what you do.
Absolutely.
So I'm an executive coach and founding partnerat Leadership Reinvented, and we're an
(00:26):
executive coaching, leadership coaching, HRadvisory, and training firm.
What we do is, you know, we work with a lot ofyou know, we work everywhere from first level
leaders to executive teams to boards.
A lot of group dynamics is what we focus on.
Leadership development, we take a very customapproach to our coaching and training and
(00:48):
development programs where we combine ourexperience as former corporate executives and
entrepreneurs and as well as our experience asboard certified counselors to really dig
deeper, into really what's happening with theorganization.
We take a very holistic system, you know,really a system approach to really figure out
where some of the root cause issues holdingeither our clients back or these teams back.
(01:11):
So how many people do you does a businessusually have to work with you?
So, usually, if we're I mean, we've seen somevery large boards.
Right?
So we've worked in professional associations.
Those can get very, very large.
So those can be 25, 30.
Ideally, we'd like to stay at a smaller grouplevel.
(01:32):
And so, you know, in most boards, there are sixto seven people, c suite right around that same
area too as well.
So we work with even if it's a leadership teamjust kinda struggling or a team overall,
there's a really critical strategic initiativecoming in.
So we'll work with the team to kinda help toform them, you know, get them, you know, set
their ground rules, and how do we get them toprogress rapidly where they're not going back
(01:55):
to, you know, their their forming or theirstorming levels.
So we wanna kinda progress them pretty quicklythrough these stages of group development to
get them into that that performing area.
And that performing area is really what, youknow, I like to call this utopian team.
It's a highly agile.
It is self regulating.
It's very innovative.
(02:17):
There's no, you know, silos.
There's no you know, really, it it's what whatwe posture is is the very few teams ever get to
this utopian performing level that is, youknow, like I said, highly agile and really
what's what's true performing.
Wow.
Wow.
So let's say I'm I'm coming to you.
(02:39):
I've got a team of six people.
We've got a big event coming up, and we'rereally struggling to just make it all cohesive.
Is that something you would help with?
Yeah.
Those are probably those are probably our ourour best ones.
Right?
Because we we kinda wanna figure out what'sbeen going on.
Mean, I mean, I think we enjoy that the mostbecause this is really you know, when we
(03:00):
combine our our counseling backgrounds and andand, again, we're not counselors.
We I I don't wanna say that, but we just youknow, we're board certified counselors.
And so we like to kinda have take that deeperapproach.
And so we really wanna kinda talk to everyoneand see where some of this conflict is coming
from or what's holding them back, what some ofthe root causes.
It's a very normal for a team to go throughstages of development, and that can look like
(03:22):
infighting.
That can look like a lot of conflict.
And even even individual members will want to,kind of almost question authority, start to
take you know, try to take on some authority,and that can that can present us a lot of
different ways.
What we would do is, one, we'd wanna work withthe team as a whole.
We're not interested in only working wecertainly can to help the leader to kinda build
(03:46):
their own team dynamics.
But especially in a situation like that, ifthere's a large project, whether it's a, you
know, it's a software, it's a it's atransformation, it's a digital transformation
program, We're gonna look at that team as awhole and say, okay.
How do we get back to basics?
How do we move them from this initial stage offorming where nobody might know each other or
or there's some, you know, impressions of whatthey might have from people and have them set
(04:10):
their own ground rules, have them set how theywanna perform, how they wanna communicate, what
are the milestones, and build them up from thatpoint where we can start to get them into this
higher level of collaboration where there's notconflict.
How can they fix their own conflict, And howcan they kind of build out their road map to
grow the you know, to make the projectsuccessful?
Very difficult.
(04:30):
It's easier said than done.
It it takes some time.
There's no doubt about it.
But in a lot of coaching, it's it's a very wewe sometimes we'll take a very, like,
psychoanalytic approach.
Like, we're gonna look at this and say, okay.
Here's some of the roadblocks we're having.
And so that's where, you know, we we reallyjust wanna progress people to get there for the
most part.
Wow.
(04:50):
That sounds really amazing to be able to gothrough that because it sounds like you're not
just helping them through this moment ofconflict, but you're giving them tools so that
they can handle the next conflict that comesup.
Because, well, you're working with people.
People are gonna have conflicts ever so often.
So you're giving them something that they canuse to, I don't wanna say self regulate, but
(05:14):
manage themselves or handle the issue before itbecomes a problem.
The group self regulating is almost like wherewhere you start to get to that high level where
Oh, okay.
Conflict is conflict is almost encouraged.
Right?
As opposed to you know, and certainly this canhappen in personal lives and and and
professional lives where, you know, if I feellike something happened and it wasn't you know,
(05:38):
I might have taken this like a slight or I, youknow, I disagreed with.
And and if that team doesn't speak up, thatteam's not performing.
Right?
So if if there is conflict or if I disagree orif I'm not even just comfortable speaking in
the meeting, I mean, innovation suffers, theteam suffers, everybody kinda leaves the
meeting saying, I don't know what I learned.
I don't know why I was in this meeting.
(05:59):
And that can really kind of progress into avery not necessarily always a toxic culture,
but it it can start and it can almost kindahave that ripple effect too as well as you
know?
But if but if we can get them to a point whereconflict is kind of encouraged a little bit you
know, I I say this a lot.
Conflict is not always a negative.
We we've taken this term conflict as being abad thing.
(06:20):
But if I can go in and say, I actually disagreewith that, or or what about if we look at it
from this perspective?
That's where we can kinda start to change thatnarrative, and the team can work together to
solve their own issues where you don't need us.
You don't need a coach to come in.
You don't need a third party.
And the team can yeah.
I mean, I I feel really like that selfregulation.
They can they can stop somebody and say, Ithought we were planning on doing this way, and
(06:42):
that's where the team can continue to grow.
Everyone feels safe.
That's really the biggest thing too as well.
That sounds a little contrived.
But, you know, where everyone feels safe to beable to bring these things up and say, you
know, I I I don't know why I have to be in thismeeting or or what is our goal?
What is our what how do we know we're forthese?
That's what so those are all conflict that, youknow, needs to be solved.
(07:04):
I really like that.
You know, you can take that even if you onlyhave yourself and maybe your spouse or your
partner that is not a part of your business.
But because they're in your household andaffect everything you do too, there's a way to
work with that too.
So, yeah, learning that it's okay to disagree.
(07:25):
You know?
And and I agree.
This sounds kind of, you know, simple, but weneed to be able to feel safe to voice our
opinion, whether it's it's in our relationshipsor in the business world.
Even with our clients, we need our clients tobe able to feel safe enough with us to be able
to say, you know, I don't quite disagree withthat or I don't understand it.
(07:49):
Because if you're just always telling them whatto do and they have to go along with it,
eventually, they're gonna like, okay.
Fine.
This is nice.
It's over.
And then that's it.
They're not gonna refer you to anybody.
They're not gonna want to work with you again.
So learning this conflict resolution, if I'musing the right words, even as a team, you can
(08:10):
take that into other aspects of your life.
So it's really a great thing that you're doingthere.
I know that I've heard other people talk abouttheir business meetings that they were in and
how they don't know why they keep having them.
It's the same meeting over and over again.
Nothing ever gets solved.
And every time they bring up a solution, theyget shut out or they get knocked down, and
(08:34):
nothing happens.
In fact, that causes a lot of strife.
And I've I've seen big corporations even thoughbig corporations are still going.
They have all of this nitpicking and fightingand and in house conflict that doesn't really
resolve anything.
And, eventually, the company doesn't do sowell.
(08:54):
They get bought out by somebody else and thingschange.
So what you're offering is is, excuse me, asolution that not only works for the company,
but it also works for the individual within thecompany.
And when they each go to run their own littleteams, they already have all the tools on how
to make sure that it goes well.
Absolutely.
One the things in my community is I want peopleto feel safe, to feel safe so if they have to
(09:20):
be vulnerable, they know that it's okay, thatit's not gonna go any further, that they're
going to be accepted in that vulnerability.
So how did you get started in this?
Is this something you've always been a
part of?
If I can I'd love to circle back on your otherpoint.
I'd love to get there, but I I loved youryou're right.
That personal side is very important.
(09:41):
Right?
And that's and and we we try not to separatethe person from the professional, or we have to
look at that person.
Get that's a big thing.
But even just you're right.
If you're in a corporate meeting or you're in arelationship and you don't feel comfortable or
if there's something you disagree with andyou're not comfortable, eventually, it's gonna
silence you.
Yeah.
And and I think that's the one thing that weunderstand that leaders have to push for
(10:04):
results.
Leaders have to push their teams.
Leaders have to complete tasks.
Right?
When we stay on this task only and we're justpushing and pushing and pushing, and if you're
and if you're not noticing that your team'sgoing quiet, that the innovation has suffered
in your group, it's something you've lost yourteam, but it's something that you need to kinda
slow slow down and almost pause and reflectthat a little bit.
Because, again, even you're right.
(10:25):
In large corporations and I've worked withcorporation I've worked with individuals in
almost any company you can imagine, every fieldin I'll kinda get to where I started beef you
know, in just a second.
But Okay.
Things will still get done is the thing.
Things are still getting done.
Tasks are still getting completed even in thesegroups, even in the leadership team.
But if they're silent, they're not comfortablevoicing their opinion.
(10:47):
What is the point of having the team?
Yeah.
Because if especially if everyone's justagreeing, and there's only a yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's all you hear.
You have a bunch of yes people there.
It's not necessarily because they're yespeople.
It's because when they brought up concernsbefore, they brought up some strategic
initiatives or they brought up their ideas, itit either fell on deaf ears or it just didn't
go.
So that's where you get back and kinda fallinto, and that does spread.
(11:10):
There's no doubt about it.
Yeah.
Definitely.
Just wanna circle back on that.
No.
That was great.
How did I get into it?
I came out of, you know, you know, kind ofthings.
It was it was in the army.
I went to that paid for my college.
I, you know, complete school.
I ended up getting into, like, a careercoaching and resume writing business.
(11:31):
And then I started my own going back almost,probably twenty years ago.
And then so I've kinda built that business up,and that's where I really had this this
wonderful, very micro experience.
Right?
So I've worked with individuals, and we've Iyou know, we built it up, did some outplacement
stuff, a lot of presentations, some things ofthat nature.
But I I really worked with individuals verydeeply getting into their careers and things of
(11:55):
that nature.
And you would hear all these stories, right, ofof, you know, one thing I I hear all the time
or or my clients will say if they're trying todrive initiative, they'll hear, that's the way
we've always done it.
And to me, that's that's almost like the f wordof of corporate speak where it's it's it's so
awful for someone to hear that.
(12:16):
That's the way we've always done it even thoughit's not efficient, even though it's it's not
doing anything for us.
So that's always a phrase.
So I'd work I'd work with these individuals.
We'd really get into their background.
I'd hear their stories.
I'd hear where, you know, maybe their struggleswere as executives or or individual
contributors.
And so as as I was doing that and about my mywife, who's also my partner in my in my firm
(12:40):
now, she was she was growing up throughcorporate, and she worked for a bunch of high
level you know, she kinda grew up into her lastposition was a chief transformation officer,
and then we started this business together.
We kinda thought about doing this a long timeago because I would tell her we kind of run
started running case studies together.
So I would tell her about my clients or shewould tell me about, you know, her leadership
(13:03):
teams, and we'd be working on it together kindof very much strategizing.
Well, I I think if we take this approach orhere's what I'm hearing.
I think this is the this is might be one of theroot causes.
So we went to counseling school together.
We went got a master's degree in 2014.
It's a very intensive process.
It's like a three year program, lots ofclinicals, internships, things of that nature.
(13:25):
We had no intention of doing clinical mentalhealth counseling.
I I really greatly respect that field and andactually really do admire admire counselors.
I I've struggled probably, you know, thethought of working with, you know, heavy
clinical or children with, you know, severemental health diagnosis.
I just don't know if I have the stomach for it.
(13:45):
But we really wanted to kind of how do wetranslate this into our business world?
And so that's kind of where you know, how do wedrive for deeper meaning?
People would come to us and they'd have yeah.
It was professional.
There's nothing about it.
It was their career.
It was I'm not you know, I don't have purpose.
I'm not fulfilled, but everything should befine.
Boy, I hear that.
Yeah.
I hear that a lot.
You know, how how do I work with them deeper?
(14:07):
Because they would bring these personal thingsto us, but I I wasn't skilled enough.
I I could tell you on the career side, or let'srun some career assessments, and I could I I I
I just wasn't skilled enough to be able to kindof really feel like I was making a huge
difference with them.
And so and my wife would say the same thing.
You know, she's she's coaching theseexecutives, and she's training these teams.
And, you know, everyone's excited the firstcouple days.
(14:30):
Everyone's, oh, this is gonna be this is agreat training or thank you so much for that
new idea.
I'm gonna implement this, and everyone comesout in about a week later.
Everyone go right back to doing the exact samething.
And so that's really and and, again, that'sreal comments from mine trying to keep us in
that same place.
It's really a safety mechanism.
But how do we dig deeper?
How do we how are we able to protect ourclients even better or get them to perform
(14:51):
better?
And that's that's really when we so we startedabout 2018, and we've been kind of full full
going at it.
But even then, it was relatively slow.
So we've kind of done a slow burn, but nowwe're both, you know, really focused on kinda
pushing this out.
And, yeah, it it's it's great.
It's an it's I I love I I you know, I certainlylike I have nothing but respect for the mental
(15:15):
health field.
But, you know, certainly, when what I feel likethat we do is our our ripple effect of a good
leadership, a good executive team, of a goodboard, it impacts a lot of people.
Right?
So we know that the, you know, the workplace oftoday are the numbers are are are are rough.
Stress levels are up, and people aren'tthriving, and they're miserable, but they can't
(15:38):
leave because the job market's no good.
But if if we can develop a a good team, right,or if they they they feel like they can go to a
meeting and have an impact, there's purposethere, and that does impact them.
That impacts them personally too as well.
And so there's this this this beautiful rippleeffect that, again, takes time, you know, once
that trust is there, that purpose is there.
(15:59):
And so that's really where I kind of that's thebottom line.
This is why we get into it.
So we feel like you can make that ripple rippleimpact and have more impact on people's lives.
And I know it sounds, you know, maybe maybe alittle overstated, but it it really does
matter.
You know, if you're Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've all gotta be working.
Right?
I mean, it's you know, all have to be.
But, you know, if you're gonna be working, youwanna feel like that's that, you know, you
(16:22):
there is purpose there.
It's aligned to your values, and you're makinga difference even if it is as an IC or if it is
as a first first level manager.
Right.
But, you know, that does translate.
But if you're stressed, if if work is off, youfeel you feel bad at the office, you're not
contributing, you're micromanaged, that doestranslate to the home.
There's no doubt about it.
Yeah.
I definitely agree with that.
(16:44):
It just reminded me of the time when I wasworking at the factory.
You know?
You work on the line, you do the same thingover and over and over and repeat it.
And Of and you don't really feel like you're,you know, you're doing your job.
But, you know, for me personally, I wanted todo more.
I want to contribute more.
And so when I was able to move into the displaydepartment, I knew I was making a difference
(17:08):
there.
I knew that I was giving them the high qualitythat needed to be there for people to see these
items because they were going to shows andwhatnot, and it was wonderful.
Because now I was leading a team that we'regonna give our best.
We're gonna make these stand out to look likesomething more amazing than anything, not just,
you know, the normal humdrum.
(17:29):
And you brought up a really good point that Ihad just recently discovered, be November,
December of last year, is the starting out withsomething new.
Well, this is gonna be really great.
You know?
Those endorphins are going on in your mind.
It's just like, this is so fantastic.
And and it's one of the things that asentrepreneurs, we get into the shiny object
(17:53):
thing because, wow, this is really exciting.
But doing the normal day to day task andwaiting for things to happen can get slow and
boring.
And so we try something else because we wantthat big rush of endorphins and happiness
again.
And and so instead of taking our time and goingthrough the steps that need to be, we keep
jumping from one thing to another.
(18:15):
And so I like the way you're talking aboutbringing the team together, finding out what's
really going on and giving them the steps andthe ability to self regulate and and continue
to go on and get it done.
So by the time they finish this course withyou, they still have that that sense of
fulfillment.
(18:35):
And and, we're gonna get this done, I can carrythis on into this, and I can do this.
Another team.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We don't wanna coach you forever.
Yeah.
And we No.
Like, yeah, we you don't you don't want usthere all the time, right, is the thing.
So that's that's the other thing.
But, yeah, that that will that will go to otherteams or that you know, here's where maybe we
can build these expectations around there as weas we form Storm and Norma groups.
(19:01):
Yeah.
Definitely.
Yeah.
Gosh.
You just brought up a lot of good things, and Ilike the way that you were working together and
until you finally found the place that did workfor you.
So what are some of the things that if youdon't mind sharing, as we we get into a team
(19:22):
and we have a conflict, what are some thingsthat we can do on our own maybe before you come
into our team and help us out?
What are some things that we can look for thatmaybe we need to say, hey.
This maybe is the problem here before weactually hire somebody to come in.
Need to identify these first.
(19:42):
I think everyone has a responsibility whenthere's teams.
Right?
And and I think that's where you know, if I ifand and it can be more much more difficult if I
made, you know, two years out of school and I'mand I'm with this group and I've got a couple
IT SMEs and I've got a software.
And then if there's a there's an outsideconsultant in there too as well.
(20:03):
And then the, you know, the executivestakeholders of VP or or the, you know, the the
leaders of VP or director, it can be difficultfor, you know, a first level software engineer
for and I'm just using technology.
But, you know, that can be difficult forsomeone like that to speak up, but there is
still responsibility there.
Right?
But number one, if you're forming before youhave to come in so say you are forming a a team
(20:26):
like that, it can be difficult.
But, especially for your audience, like, if I'man entrepreneur and I'm starting to ramp,
starting to grow a little bit, now I need a CFOand I COO or CSO.
Okay.
What do I need to do to them?
You know, how do I get them to start you know,how do I get us to start operating?
And I think that's probably one of the firstthings that you do have to be a leader at that
(20:48):
point.
Right?
It's still CSOs, CSOs, CFOs right, to be partof this team and be like, okay.
What are we doing here?
But let's figure out as a group how do we worktogether.
Or even an entrepreneur is bringing in asmaller team, right, of their their specialist
of all I see.
Number one, what we really recommend is, okay.
Let's let's show some vulnerability.
What what do we have to do?
(21:09):
Let's have open conversations.
The you know, if you're forming a group, andthis is where definitely in corporate
environments, it can get difficult.
And I kind of alluded to this where a lot ofcompanies, don't feel really very rarely ever
get to that performing stage, that utopianstage because, again, people leave or a new
consultant comes in.
So what really has to work is almost like, youknow, let's focus on the group.
(21:33):
Let's get back to the basics.
K.
What do we expect?
Let's have this open conversation because wecan't just start going into tasks.
We can't just start going into this is this.
This is your allocation.
So, really, the importance of building theteam, even though it's gonna take time.
Right?
And it's going to take a little bit ofconflict.
It's gonna take a little bit of headway.
Someone's gonna try and, you know, jockey forauthority.
(21:56):
It's gonna be it's gonna be a little painful onthe front end, but it's gonna pay off a million
times.
You know?
And that's really where the leader can kindaalright.
How do we form?
Let's let's talk about our concerns.
Let's talk about what do we wanna see?
How do we wanna communicate?
What are our expectations of communication?
What are some of our goals?
What are what's our plan for how we're gonnahandle conflict?
(22:18):
Is it going to be there?
So that's where it takes a little bit of timereally on their front end.
But if you want innovation, collaboration,productivity, efficiency with this group and
you want this group really being agile to kindause everyone's diverse perspectives, which is
really the ideal, why else are you forming ateam?
And you have to spend that time to kinda buildthat team and really get them all on the same
(22:39):
page.
Yeah.
That's really good.
You know, you mentioned about the young ITperson coming in or engineer, whatever it is,
and it reminded me of a situation not that Iwas involved in, but I was you know, because
people work from home, I get to hear some ofthese corporate conversations that go on.
(23:03):
And one was where you have this this youngperson who has a little bit of experience
wanting to make an impact on the team, very hasa strong you know, you've got a lot of strong
personalities here.
You have the experienced person who has gonethrough all the changes, who sees what's going
on.
You've got the young person who says, yeah, butwe've got all these new innovations and
(23:26):
everything coming on, and you're old.
You don't know what you're doing.
You've got the older person who's saying, theyoung kids are just you know, even though
you're smart, you really don't have theknowledge that goes on with the whole whole
system that's going on here.
So you've got these two very strong strongwilled, very smart, intelligent people that but
(23:50):
heads against each other.
And sometimes one goes behind the back of theother, and and then it gets found out you've
got all these problems going on.
So how do you handle, or how do you advise, youknow, the strong willed personalities to listen
to each other, take the best from each other,be part of the team to work together.
(24:13):
And then I have another question after that.
Yeah.
I mean, I you know, I I started to even thinklike, okay.
This is and this is something we're we'relooked at a lot now with the 2025 trends that
are out there, right, in in Right.
In Gallup and and MITs, and they've all gotthese these trends.
And that look that almost sounded like thismultigenerational workforce.
And so we've really looked at that, like, okay.
(24:34):
How do we coach that?
Because you do hear a lot of people sayingthat, Gen Zs and and baby boomers, and we've
got up to five generations working in inoffices now too as well.
You know, if you've got multiple headstrongpersonalities, what's the point of the team?
Yeah.
You know, blind to their values, blind to theirpurpose is the thing.
(24:54):
So that's really where yeah.
You're always there's gonna be that conflict,and that's where you can't ignore that conflict
because, yeah, if I've got a headstrong,whatever, 26 year old, I don't know, Harvard
grad, and I've got my, you know, my CIO is alsonow leading this team with this 25.
Yeah.
How do they how do they get to value each otherthan two as well?
(25:17):
And that's where I started kinda thinking,yeah, we've been doing a lot of research on
this multigenerational workforce.
How do we how do we get them?
I think we have to get them to appreciate theirwhat everyone brings is number one too as well.
Right?
And you hear all these stories and Gen z isthis or Gen x is this and all.
And I don't even know where all thesegenerations came from.
Also, everyone's labeled.
Right?
(25:38):
And but, I mean but it's true.
We do the the you know, there is differentvalues with a baby boomer versus a, you know,
Gen X or a millennial.
And Mhmm.
They've come up on technology different.
And so I I guess it looks to you you kinda haveto have to have some, you know, understanding
of what their values is or how they prefer towork.
(26:00):
And, again, where we get back down to basics.
That's instead of looking this as just thisteam of ICs that I you know, or or my SMEs
that, we've all gotta work together and let'sstart driving for results.
What what does the gen what does the gen zvalue?
What, you know, what does the baby boomervalue?
And and how does gen z wanna work?
Does gen z gen z likes texting?
(26:21):
They don't they don't wanna have a meeting ifthey don't need to, but a baby boomer might
look at that and might say, well, that'sactually way too informal for me, that feels a
little disrespectful.
And that's conflict.
But if we if we if we solve that, if we couldjust sit down and say, okay.
How do we wanna work?
What do we expect?
You know, the headstrong thing.
There's always gonna be that headstrong,especially if you're talking expertise or
(26:43):
you're you know, you you've you've been to thebest school, and this person didn't go to
college at all, they've grown throughout theorganization.
But, again, that's where we say, okay.
Well, let let's dig a little deeper.
What what do you value?
Do, you know, do we think we're gonna besuccessful?
How how do we bring that together and connectthat to the whether the team's larger purchase
their purpose, excuse me, or values, theorganization's larger purpose?
(27:04):
And that's where you can start getting the workaltogether.
Again, easier said than done.
This is not a I go in for twenty minutes andpoof, we've got a performing team.
This takes a lot of work on everyone's part,including the facilitator.
But sometimes that's why it is beneficial tobring in just just someone who can help
facilitate a conversation.
What I hear you saying, Jim, what I hear yousaying, Susan, and and this isn't working and
(27:27):
things of that nature.
And do we feel we need this many meetings orwhatever whatever the case is?
And let the team solve the problems themselves.
We always say this.
We don't have the answers.
I'm I'm not I'm never gonna go in and say, whatis right for your business?
I I have no idea, but you know.
Now let's figure out how how we can get thattogether.
Yeah.
You know, I was thinking about my my uncle.
(27:49):
He worked for the state.
They, you know, put the robes in and and didthe pavement and all of that.
And I remember he was talking about this youngman that came to work, and he was getting
closer to retirement.
And and the young man made a mistake.
You know, my uncle told him, he goes, I'm notyour boss, but this is the way I think it would
(28:11):
be better for it to go and you'll have betterresults.
And the young kid goes, no.
I'm just gonna do it the way that that Ithought I was supposed to do it.
And it's like, okay.
Well, the main boss came in and and said, whathappened here?
Why because it ended up becoming a mess.
And he goes, what happened?
He and he goes, well, you know, I did it thisway.
(28:33):
He goes, well, did Leonard tell you how to doit?
He goes, yeah.
He told me what should have been done.
He goes, well, why didn't you listen?
Because he, you know, he'd been there longenough.
He knew how everything worked and how thingswere supposed to be done to where now, I hear
some of the conversations in some of the rooms.
(28:54):
It's like when the the one that, excuse me, ismore experienced and has been there for a while
says, you know, I think this is the way itshould be done, automatically gets shut out.
Says, no.
You can't do it that way.
We're gonna do it this way.
So they go and do it, and and they make a messof it.
(29:14):
And then later, it's like, you know, I told youthis is gonna happen, that this is what it's
supposed to do.
And so then, you know, after all the problemsarise, then they have to go, okay.
Well, what did you say we were supposed to doso we can fix it?
Or someone else comes in and says, well, henever said that.
So they have to keep track of what they say.
(29:34):
I mean, it can be very frustrating.
So how do you, I guess that's another one ofthat that, you know, generational thing coming
in there.
What is a way that if you find yourself in theposition that you've got all these, to put it,
and words from from when I was a kid that thoseyoung whippersnappers that come in and wanna do
(29:58):
everything their way, how would you as as amore experienced person that maybe is not in a
position of authority, but you do have theknowledge and wisdom?
How do you handle something like that to stilllet them have their voice be heard, but say,
yes.
That's really great.
But this has been our experience in doing this,and this is why it doesn't work without making
(30:24):
them feel like you're bossing them around.
What'd you hire them for?
Would be my first question.
And I guess kinda getting to your stories is isthere you know, even to your story, what was
the point of of him saying we're gonna go youknow, I'm gonna do it this way regardless of
how we said it.
The leader might come in and say, well, and andthis could get back to what I said.
(30:45):
This is the way we've always done it.
This has always worked.
And and this very well could be a standardoperating procedure.
I'm not sure what
we're
talking about.
Right?
I mean, again, if this is how to do preventivemaintenance on a on a manufacturing line, yeah,
I'd follow that to a t.
But if you've got someone else that comes in,they're 22, they're 25, headstrong, but they
might have value.
(31:06):
Right?
There might be new ideas.
And so I think that's where why don't we startgetting back down the basis as opposed to
because that might be something this individuallooks at and goes, well, actually, I think we
might be able to do a little bit better thisway.
They've gotta feel comfortable saying it.
This individual just was like, no.
I'm gonna do it this way, it blew up in hisface.
But on the same note, a leader could have beenlike, okay.
(31:26):
Well, I I hear what you're saying.
Why what's tell me tell me more about that.
And that's where, you know, we can startgetting that value.
And that's why I opened going, well, why'd youhire him?
Right?
I mean, is it is it to just do the same thing?
You can get a robot to do that.
Right?
Everybody's retiring.
We need new people.
Yeah.
I I I you know, to have that you know, whatabout the you know, so innovation could suffer
(31:47):
in that.
And and that young man might have been like,well, I did have this idea, but it but it was a
mistake, or he didn't fully cultivate it, orthey they could have come up with you know,
collaborated on on what a better process couldhave been.
You know?
So that's the same yes.
What I would say to your audience is if you'rebringing in these young kids, they do have new
ideas.
They do know how, you know, the world works ina sense.
(32:08):
Right?
It it's a lot different than how we all grewup.
It's a lot different than how I grew up in theUber.
It's it's different, but that's not a bad thingnecessarily.
And you you still got the final call.
Right?
I mean, as a leader, you still got the finalcall.
But how do we get them to feel comfortable,comfortable with you, and saying, actually,
what if we did this?
Or this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
(32:28):
I don't get this.
Those are all great questions to ask.
Tell me more about this.
Look.
This is difficult.
And and as a leader or an entrepreneur oryou're in the c suite, you've got a million
priorities, a million things coming at you allthe time.
And it can sometimes be difficult to to findthat time to do it.
But what happens if you don't?
And I think there's one of the key things wealways like to say is is why are they there
(32:52):
then?
Is this gonna be the same mold?
Are you gonna be left behind?
Are you gonna be, you know, AT and T and allthese other companies that refuse to innovate
or refuse to kinda take that next step?
You've got a great product.
You got a great team.
Use them.
Right.
And it's your responsibility to be like, how dothey feel comfortable coming to you with with a
new process, a new idea, and collaboratetogether, you know, to potentially find
(33:14):
something new.
Like I it may go back to exactly what you saidyou were gonna do anyway.
That's fine.
But what about some new ideas?
Never a bet.
Yeah.
Oh, that's really great.
Yeah.
I like the insight on all of that.
Yeah.
So how do people get ahold of you?
Where do they find you at to help them out withtheir team?
(33:34):
Yeah.
You know, we're we're we're trying ourmarketing.
We don't do great.
So our website is, you know,leadership-reinvented.com.
That's our that's our main website, and then wedo LinkedIn, of course.
So they can just you know, they find me or findthe company on that end.
We do a lot of blogs.
We're a lot of what we do, our marketing isreally you know, I'm not selling anybody right
(33:55):
now.
Right?
And so a lot of it is just information.
We just did a live seminar, and we've got some,you know, training we're doing.
But, yeah, we're speaking of technical issues.
We had a little bit of technical issues, sowe're working on that.
But, we just did a live with, you know, peopleasking, you know, questions and things of that
nature.
So, and that was actually about the 2025 trendsand, like, what people can do.
(34:17):
And so, know, and how to kinda manage those.
So but, yeah, our website's probably the best,and, know, we we do a free consultation, you
know, where we just kinda do a half hour, fortyfive minutes and see if we can help you.
Because it potentially might not even be us.
Right?
There might be something else that your teamneeds, but, you know, we would look at
everything, again, very holistically.
(34:38):
Try some different modalities that just tokinda help get your team really to that next
level.
So That
sounds really great.
So do you have any closing thoughts for us?
There's a million things that are out thereright now.
I think, you know, and and certainly for youraudience, you know, with with these trends that
(35:00):
are coming, the workplace trends that and thischange, the multi general rate rational
workforce, AI, the great detachment, which islike an engagement number that is ugly, you
know, all of these stress levels that seem tobe increasing in the well-being of the issue.
The workplace is changing, but we're we have tofocus on and and a lot of what people say with
AI is we have to kinda start getting back tosome of the basics of our soft skills and our
(35:25):
and our empathy and what's called the humanhuman centric leadership, which is gonna be a
little different than, you know, empatheticleadership or really leading to the individual,
what we're calling leading to complex emotions.
Not that a leader is a is a counselor, but inin in in probably what you've heard a lot is
just skip back to basics.
Let's have the communication.
(35:45):
Let's have the talk.
You can't be wrong with me.
It's it's you know, again, I want to know.
I wanna learn even as an executive.
I want the feedback.
You know, there's the other thing we hear a lotabout is I I'm sorry.
I'm going down this crazy path.
But, like, especially the higher up and higherup you get, you get less and less feedback.
And so you don't know, but you also have toseek it out a little bit too as well.
And and your teams have to feel comfortabledoing whether it's a VP or I mean, it might be
(36:10):
a little unorthodox for, you know, it's youknow, first first year entry level client to
come up to you and give you feedback, but Idon't you know, tons of the organization.
But, again, it's a lot of just being open tothat feedback and really exploring it.
And as a leader, what's go what's going on witheveryone else too as well?
So if I am pushing the initiative, I am pushingmy team very hard, I'm just gonna tell them
(36:32):
that I understand this is kind of a crazy timeand, you know, just to be able to slow down.
Don't respond from, you know, your withoutreally pausing and kind of taking a breath to
know, okay.
Where's this person come from?
So if you've got a new employee and they seemstressed out and they're always stressed out
and you're like, well, I used to work fourteenhours a day.
That's that's true, and that's that iscertainly valid.
(36:53):
We all did.
Right?
But this person maybe never has had thatexperience, but they're still brilliant.
Then you hired them for a reason, and they dooffer value.
But they're coming from a different perspectiveof you, and that's different values from the
new different work life balance needs.
And that's where sometimes even as a leader orowner, it's good to kind of slow down and be
like, okay.
What does this person need?
(37:14):
Difficult.
Again, easier said than done, but that's gonnahelp your team grow as opposed to getting them
stuck, having them just go in the corner andsearching on, you know, LinkedIn looking for
their next job because they're miserablebecause they're not valued.
Right.
So I have a question for you, and maybe this isunfair to ask you.
I was reading one of John Maxwell's books, andhe talks about as a leader, you are training
(37:40):
the person who's going to take over for you.
And so you train this person, and then thisperson is trained.
Now they're gonna train the next person, butyou're there with them.
You're not actually gonna train the thirdperson.
I would be the second person then, I guess.
I don't know.
You're the first, second, third.
But you're gonna be there to help them ifthere's any situations arise that maybe they
(38:06):
didn't quite know how to handle.
So that when you're gone, the second personautomatically goes into your place and is
helping this third person now train the fourthperson.
So do you agree with that?
Is that a good way to do it that as a leader,you're there not to look over their shoulder,
(38:27):
but to guide them and help them to do whatyou're doing to get the job done?
Would that be something that would helpeliminate a lot of conflict?
I guess I I certainly get that point.
Right?
I mean, you're you're and I and I think I'vesaid it before.
You're always looking you're you're developinga replacement.
Right?
You're you're leading to your replacement.
But, again, it's it's so you can take more of astrategic approach.
(38:51):
You're building your team so they can operateif you've got a different meeting.
You're trying to optimize your time the mostand optimize your, optimize your team, get
their value up.
Right?
And I think there's and, yeah, some of thatvalue is being able to take over your
responsibility and potentially your role.
I do feel like that is eventually theresponsibility of the leader.
(39:12):
If they've got 50 people, you got 50 peoplepaying for the role.
But, yeah, ideally, you're they're developingwhere they can operate in your stead.
Okay.
%.
That's really great.
Thank you.
Yeah.
And if you have any questions or comments oraudience, you know, for for Kevin, you know,
get ahold of him.
What are some of the social media sites thatthey can get ahold of you, Kevin?
(39:35):
Right now, it's just right now, it's justLinkedIn.
Yeah.
LinkedIn.
We're we're
both Keep it simple.
Yeah.
Sir.
Absolutely.
And then Yeah.
Yeah.
We're our our courses, we're we're trying toexpand some of the courses and things of that
nature, especially as we see some of thesetrends.
But, yeah, for the most part, yeah, it'sLinkedIn or our website that's best for us.
So and our blog.
Okay.
That sounds wonderful.
And be sure to check out wisdom on the frontporch for a link to this this, podcast and
(40:01):
share it with others.
You can see the magazines that's there.
We now have the first issue out.
It's free to everybody who looks on there soyou can see what's going on with the magazine,
but you can subscribe for the other magazinescoming up.
Thank you so much, Kevin, for being here, andthank you, our audience, for being here.
We really appreciate you.
Remember Thank you.
There's something wonderful that's going tohappen, so be sure and keep your eyes open for
(40:24):
it.
Mhmm.
That's a lot of fun.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us today on Wisdom on theFront Porch with your host, Ellis Kirkpatrick.
You can find us on our website,wisdomonthefrontporch.com, see previous
episodes of the podcast, and view issues of themagazine.
Did you know you can submit questions, leavereviews, or suggest topics?
(40:47):
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Subscribe to Wisdom on the Front Porch magazineand join in next week when we bring you another
great insight into the world of entrepreneurculture and lifestyle.
(41:11):
Make today a great day.
Always believe that something wonderful isgoing to happen.
Welcome to another episode with Wisdom on theFront Porch and on my Front Porch is Kevin.
Thank you so much for being here today.
Hi, Ellis.
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm really excited to be here.
I love the work you do.
Oh, awesome.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
So tell us about your work and what you do.
Absolutely.
So I'm an executive coach and founding partnerat Leadership Reinvented, and we're an
(00:26):
executive coaching, leadership coaching, HRadvisory, and training firm.
What we do is, you know, we work with a lot ofyou know, we work everywhere from first level
leaders to executive teams to boards.
A lot of group dynamics is what we focus on.
Leadership development, we take a very customapproach to our coaching and training and
(00:48):
development programs where we combine ourexperience as former corporate executives and
entrepreneurs and as well as our experience asboard certified counselors to really dig
deeper, into really what's happening with theorganization.
We take a very holistic system, you know,really a system approach to really figure out
where some of the root cause issues holdingeither our clients back or these teams back.
(01:11):
So how many people do you does a businessusually have to work with you?
So, usually, if we're I mean, we've seen somevery large boards.
Right?
So we've worked in professional associations.
Those can get very, very large.
So those can be 25, 30.
Ideally, we'd like to stay at a smaller grouplevel.
(01:32):
And so, you know, in most boards, there are sixto seven people, c suite right around that same
area too as well.
So we work with even if it's a leadership teamjust kinda struggling or a team overall,
there's a really critical strategic initiativecoming in.
So we'll work with the team to kinda help toform them, you know, get them, you know, set
their ground rules, and how do we get them toprogress rapidly where they're not going back
(01:55):
to, you know, their their forming or theirstorming levels.
So we wanna kinda progress them pretty quicklythrough these stages of group development to
get them into that that performing area.
And that performing area is really what, youknow, I like to call this utopian team.
It's a highly agile.
It is self regulating.
It's very innovative.
(02:17):
There's no, you know, silos.
There's no you know, really, it it's what whatwe posture is is the very few teams ever get to
this utopian performing level that is, youknow, like I said, highly agile and really
what's what's true performing.
Wow.
Wow.
So let's say I'm I'm coming to you.
(02:39):
I've got a team of six people.
We've got a big event coming up, and we'rereally struggling to just make it all cohesive.
Is that something you would help with?
Yeah.
Those are probably those are probably our ourour best ones.
Right?
Because we we kinda wanna figure out what'sbeen going on.
Mean, I mean, I think we enjoy that the mostbecause this is really you know, when we
(03:00):
combine our our counseling backgrounds and andand, again, we're not counselors.
We I I don't wanna say that, but we just youknow, we're board certified counselors.
And so we like to kinda have take that deeperapproach.
And so we really wanna kinda talk to everyoneand see where some of this conflict is coming
from or what's holding them back, what some ofthe root causes.
It's a very normal for a team to go throughstages of development, and that can look like
(03:22):
infighting.
That can look like a lot of conflict.
And even even individual members will want to,kind of almost question authority, start to
take you know, try to take on some authority,and that can that can present us a lot of
different ways.
What we would do is, one, we'd wanna work withthe team as a whole.
We're not interested in only working wecertainly can to help the leader to kinda build
(03:46):
their own team dynamics.
But especially in a situation like that, ifthere's a large project, whether it's a, you
know, it's a software, it's a it's atransformation, it's a digital transformation
program, We're gonna look at that team as awhole and say, okay.
How do we get back to basics?
How do we move them from this initial stage offorming where nobody might know each other or
or there's some, you know, impressions of whatthey might have from people and have them set
(04:10):
their own ground rules, have them set how theywanna perform, how they wanna communicate, what
are the milestones, and build them up from thatpoint where we can start to get them into this
higher level of collaboration where there's notconflict.
How can they fix their own conflict, And howcan they kind of build out their road map to
grow the you know, to make the projectsuccessful?
Very difficult.
(04:30):
It's easier said than done.
It it takes some time.
There's no doubt about it.
But in a lot of coaching, it's it's a very wewe sometimes we'll take a very, like,
psychoanalytic approach.
Like, we're gonna look at this and say, okay.
Here's some of the roadblocks we're having.
And so that's where, you know, we we reallyjust wanna progress people to get there for the
most part.
Wow.
(04:50):
That sounds really amazing to be able to gothrough that because it sounds like you're not
just helping them through this moment ofconflict, but you're giving them tools so that
they can handle the next conflict that comesup.
Because, well, you're working with people.
People are gonna have conflicts ever so often.
So you're giving them something that they canuse to, I don't wanna say self regulate, but
(05:14):
manage themselves or handle the issue before itbecomes a problem.
The group self regulating is almost like wherewhere you start to get to that high level where
Oh, okay.
Conflict is conflict is almost encouraged.
Right?
As opposed to you know, and certainly this canhappen in personal lives and and and
professional lives where, you know, if I feellike something happened and it wasn't you know,
(05:38):
I might have taken this like a slight or I, youknow, I disagreed with.
And and if that team doesn't speak up, thatteam's not performing.
Right?
So if if there is conflict or if I disagree orif I'm not even just comfortable speaking in
the meeting, I mean, innovation suffers, theteam suffers, everybody kinda leaves the
meeting saying, I don't know what I learned.
I don't know why I was in this meeting.
(05:59):
And that can really kind of progress into avery not necessarily always a toxic culture,
but it it can start and it can almost kindahave that ripple effect too as well as you
know?
But if but if we can get them to a point whereconflict is kind of encouraged a little bit you
know, I I say this a lot.
Conflict is not always a negative.
We we've taken this term conflict as being abad thing.
(06:20):
But if I can go in and say, I actually disagreewith that, or or what about if we look at it
from this perspective?
That's where we can kinda start to change thatnarrative, and the team can work together to
solve their own issues where you don't need us.
You don't need a coach to come in.
You don't need a third party.
And the team can yeah.
I mean, I I feel really like that selfregulation.
They can they can stop somebody and say, Ithought we were planning on doing this way, and
(06:42):
that's where the team can continue to grow.
Everyone feels safe.
That's really the biggest thing too as well.
That sounds a little contrived.
But, you know, where everyone feels safe to beable to bring these things up and say, you
know, I I I don't know why I have to be in thismeeting or or what is our goal?
What is our what how do we know we're forthese?
That's what so those are all conflict that, youknow, needs to be solved.
(07:04):
I really like that.
You know, you can take that even if you onlyhave yourself and maybe your spouse or your
partner that is not a part of your business.
But because they're in your household andaffect everything you do too, there's a way to
work with that too.
So, yeah, learning that it's okay to disagree.
(07:25):
You know?
And and I agree.
This sounds kind of, you know, simple, but weneed to be able to feel safe to voice our
opinion, whether it's it's in our relationshipsor in the business world.
Even with our clients, we need our clients tobe able to feel safe enough with us to be able
to say, you know, I don't quite disagree withthat or I don't understand it.
(07:49):
Because if you're just always telling them whatto do and they have to go along with it,
eventually, they're gonna like, okay.
Fine.
This is nice.
It's over.
And then that's it.
They're not gonna refer you to anybody.
They're not gonna want to work with you again.
So learning this conflict resolution, if I'musing the right words, even as a team, you can
(08:10):
take that into other aspects of your life.
So it's really a great thing that you're doingthere.
I know that I've heard other people talk abouttheir business meetings that they were in and
how they don't know why they keep having them.
It's the same meeting over and over again.
Nothing ever gets solved.
And every time they bring up a solution, theyget shut out or they get knocked down, and
(08:34):
nothing happens.
In fact, that causes a lot of strife.
And I've I've seen big corporations even thoughbig corporations are still going.
They have all of this nitpicking and fightingand and in house conflict that doesn't really
resolve anything.
And, eventually, the company doesn't do sowell.
(08:54):
They get bought out by somebody else and thingschange.
So what you're offering is is, excuse me, asolution that not only works for the company,
but it also works for the individual within thecompany.
And when they each go to run their own littleteams, they already have all the tools on how
to make sure that it goes well.
Absolutely.
One the things in my community is I want peopleto feel safe, to feel safe so if they have to
(09:20):
be vulnerable, they know that it's okay, thatit's not gonna go any further, that they're
going to be accepted in that vulnerability.
So how did you get started in this?
Is this something you've always been a
part of?
If I can I'd love to circle back on your otherpoint.
I'd love to get there, but I I loved youryou're right.
That personal side is very important.
(09:41):
Right?
And that's and and we we try not to separatethe person from the professional, or we have to
look at that person.
Get that's a big thing.
But even just you're right.
If you're in a corporate meeting or you're in arelationship and you don't feel comfortable or
if there's something you disagree with andyou're not comfortable, eventually, it's gonna
silence you.
Yeah.
And and I think that's the one thing that weunderstand that leaders have to push for
(10:04):
results.
Leaders have to push their teams.
Leaders have to complete tasks.
Right?
When we stay on this task only and we're justpushing and pushing and pushing, and if you're
and if you're not noticing that your team'sgoing quiet, that the innovation has suffered
in your group, it's something you've lost yourteam, but it's something that you need to kinda
slow slow down and almost pause and reflectthat a little bit.
Because, again, even you're right.
(10:25):
In large corporations and I've worked withcorporation I've worked with individuals in
almost any company you can imagine, every fieldin I'll kinda get to where I started beef you
know, in just a second.
But Okay.
Things will still get done is the thing.
Things are still getting done.
Tasks are still getting completed even in thesegroups, even in the leadership team.
But if they're silent, they're not comfortablevoicing their opinion.
(10:47):
What is the point of having the team?
Yeah.
Because if especially if everyone's justagreeing, and there's only a yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's all you hear.
You have a bunch of yes people there.
It's not necessarily because they're yespeople.
It's because when they brought up concernsbefore, they brought up some strategic
initiatives or they brought up their ideas, itit either fell on deaf ears or it just didn't
go.
So that's where you get back and kinda fallinto, and that does spread.
(11:10):
There's no doubt about it.
Yeah.
Definitely.
Just wanna circle back on that.
No.
That was great.
How did I get into it?
I came out of, you know, you know, kind ofthings.
It was it was in the army.
I went to that paid for my college.
I, you know, complete school.
I ended up getting into, like, a careercoaching and resume writing business.
(11:31):
And then I started my own going back almost,probably twenty years ago.
And then so I've kinda built that business up,and that's where I really had this this
wonderful, very micro experience.
Right?
So I've worked with individuals, and we've Iyou know, we built it up, did some outplacement
stuff, a lot of presentations, some things ofthat nature.
But I I really worked with individuals verydeeply getting into their careers and things of
(11:55):
that nature.
And you would hear all these stories, right, ofof, you know, one thing I I hear all the time
or or my clients will say if they're trying todrive initiative, they'll hear, that's the way
we've always done it.
And to me, that's that's almost like the f wordof of corporate speak where it's it's it's so
awful for someone to hear that.
(12:16):
That's the way we've always done it even thoughit's not efficient, even though it's it's not
doing anything for us.
So that's always a phrase.
So I'd work I'd work with these individuals.
We'd really get into their background.
I'd hear their stories.
I'd hear where, you know, maybe their struggleswere as executives or or individual
contributors.
And so as as I was doing that and about my mywife, who's also my partner in my in my firm
(12:40):
now, she was she was growing up throughcorporate, and she worked for a bunch of high
level you know, she kinda grew up into her lastposition was a chief transformation officer,
and then we started this business together.
We kinda thought about doing this a long timeago because I would tell her we kind of run
started running case studies together.
So I would tell her about my clients or shewould tell me about, you know, her leadership
(13:03):
teams, and we'd be working on it together kindof very much strategizing.
Well, I I think if we take this approach orhere's what I'm hearing.
I think this is the this is might be one of theroot causes.
So we went to counseling school together.
We went got a master's degree in 2014.
It's a very intensive process.
It's like a three year program, lots ofclinicals, internships, things of that nature.
(13:25):
We had no intention of doing clinical mentalhealth counseling.
I I really greatly respect that field and andactually really do admire admire counselors.
I I've struggled probably, you know, thethought of working with, you know, heavy
clinical or children with, you know, severemental health diagnosis.
I just don't know if I have the stomach for it.
(13:45):
But we really wanted to kind of how do wetranslate this into our business world?
And so that's kind of where you know, how do wedrive for deeper meaning?
People would come to us and they'd have yeah.
It was professional.
There's nothing about it.
It was their career.
It was I'm not you know, I don't have purpose.
I'm not fulfilled, but everything should befine.
Boy, I hear that.
Yeah.
I hear that a lot.
You know, how how do I work with them deeper?
(14:07):
Because they would bring these personal thingsto us, but I I wasn't skilled enough.
I I could tell you on the career side, or let'srun some career assessments, and I could I I I
I just wasn't skilled enough to be able to kindof really feel like I was making a huge
difference with them.
And so and my wife would say the same thing.
You know, she's she's coaching theseexecutives, and she's training these teams.
And, you know, everyone's excited the firstcouple days.
(14:30):
Everyone's, oh, this is gonna be this is agreat training or thank you so much for that
new idea.
I'm gonna implement this, and everyone comesout in about a week later.
Everyone go right back to doing the exact samething.
And so that's really and and, again, that'sreal comments from mine trying to keep us in
that same place.
It's really a safety mechanism.
But how do we dig deeper?
How do we how are we able to protect ourclients even better or get them to perform
(14:51):
better?
And that's that's really when we so we startedabout 2018, and we've been kind of full full
going at it.
But even then, it was relatively slow.
So we've kind of done a slow burn, but nowwe're both, you know, really focused on kinda
pushing this out.
And, yeah, it it's it's great.
It's an it's I I love I I you know, I certainlylike I have nothing but respect for the mental
(15:15):
health field.
But, you know, certainly, when what I feel likethat we do is our our ripple effect of a good
leadership, a good executive team, of a goodboard, it impacts a lot of people.
Right?
So we know that the, you know, the workplace oftoday are the numbers are are are are rough.
Stress levels are up, and people aren'tthriving, and they're miserable, but they can't
(15:38):
leave because the job market's no good.
But if if we can develop a a good team, right,or if they they they feel like they can go to a
meeting and have an impact, there's purposethere, and that does impact them.
That impacts them personally too as well.
And so there's this this this beautiful rippleeffect that, again, takes time, you know, once
that trust is there, that purpose is there.
(15:59):
And so that's really where I kind of that's thebottom line.
This is why we get into it.
So we feel like you can make that ripple rippleimpact and have more impact on people's lives.
And I know it sounds, you know, maybe maybe alittle overstated, but it it really does
matter.
You know, if you're Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've all gotta be working.
Right?
I mean, it's you know, all have to be.
But, you know, if you're gonna be working, youwanna feel like that's that, you know, you
(16:22):
there is purpose there.
It's aligned to your values, and you're makinga difference even if it is as an IC or if it is
as a first first level manager.
Right.
But, you know, that does translate.
But if you're stressed, if if work is off, youfeel you feel bad at the office, you're not
contributing, you're micromanaged, that doestranslate to the home.
There's no doubt about it.
Yeah.
I definitely agree with that.
(16:44):
It just reminded me of the time when I wasworking at the factory.
You know?
You work on the line, you do the same thingover and over and over and repeat it.
And Of and you don't really feel like you're,you know, you're doing your job.
But, you know, for me personally, I wanted todo more.
I want to contribute more.
And so when I was able to move into the displaydepartment, I knew I was making a difference
(17:08):
there.
I knew that I was giving them the high qualitythat needed to be there for people to see these
items because they were going to shows andwhatnot, and it was wonderful.
Because now I was leading a team that we'regonna give our best.
We're gonna make these stand out to look likesomething more amazing than anything, not just,
you know, the normal humdrum.
(17:29):
And you brought up a really good point that Ihad just recently discovered, be November,
December of last year, is the starting out withsomething new.
Well, this is gonna be really great.
You know?
Those endorphins are going on in your mind.
It's just like, this is so fantastic.
And and it's one of the things that asentrepreneurs, we get into the shiny object
(17:53):
thing because, wow, this is really exciting.
But doing the normal day to day task andwaiting for things to happen can get slow and
boring.
And so we try something else because we wantthat big rush of endorphins and happiness
again.
And and so instead of taking our time and goingthrough the steps that need to be, we keep
jumping from one thing to another.
(18:15):
And so I like the way you're talking aboutbringing the team together, finding out what's
really going on and giving them the steps andthe ability to self regulate and and continue
to go on and get it done.
So by the time they finish this course withyou, they still have that that sense of
fulfillment.
(18:35):
And and, we're gonna get this done, I can carrythis on into this, and I can do this.
Another team.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We don't wanna coach you forever.
Yeah.
And we No.
Like, yeah, we you don't you don't want usthere all the time, right, is the thing.
So that's that's the other thing.
But, yeah, that that will that will go to otherteams or that you know, here's where maybe we
can build these expectations around there as weas we form Storm and Norma groups.
(19:01):
Yeah.
Definitely.
Yeah.
Gosh.
You just brought up a lot of good things, and Ilike the way that you were working together and
until you finally found the place that did workfor you.
So what are some of the things that if youdon't mind sharing, as we we get into a team
(19:22):
and we have a conflict, what are some thingsthat we can do on our own maybe before you come
into our team and help us out?
What are some things that we can look for thatmaybe we need to say, hey.
This maybe is the problem here before weactually hire somebody to come in.
Need to identify these first.
(19:42):
I think everyone has a responsibility whenthere's teams.
Right?
And and I think that's where you know, if I ifand and it can be more much more difficult if I
made, you know, two years out of school and I'mand I'm with this group and I've got a couple
IT SMEs and I've got a software.
And then if there's a there's an outsideconsultant in there too as well.
(20:03):
And then the, you know, the executivestakeholders of VP or or the, you know, the the
leaders of VP or director, it can be difficultfor, you know, a first level software engineer
for and I'm just using technology.
But, you know, that can be difficult forsomeone like that to speak up, but there is
still responsibility there.
Right?
But number one, if you're forming before youhave to come in so say you are forming a a team
(20:26):
like that, it can be difficult.
But, especially for your audience, like, if I'man entrepreneur and I'm starting to ramp,
starting to grow a little bit, now I need a CFOand I COO or CSO.
Okay.
What do I need to do to them?
You know, how do I get them to start you know,how do I get us to start operating?
And I think that's probably one of the firstthings that you do have to be a leader at that
(20:48):
point.
Right?
It's still CSOs, CSOs, CFOs right, to be partof this team and be like, okay.
What are we doing here?
But let's figure out as a group how do we worktogether.
Or even an entrepreneur is bringing in asmaller team, right, of their their specialist
of all I see.
Number one, what we really recommend is, okay.
Let's let's show some vulnerability.
What what do we have to do?
(21:09):
Let's have open conversations.
The you know, if you're forming a group, andthis is where definitely in corporate
environments, it can get difficult.
And I kind of alluded to this where a lot ofcompanies, don't feel really very rarely ever
get to that performing stage, that utopianstage because, again, people leave or a new
consultant comes in.
So what really has to work is almost like, youknow, let's focus on the group.
(21:33):
Let's get back to the basics.
K.
What do we expect?
Let's have this open conversation because wecan't just start going into tasks.
We can't just start going into this is this.
This is your allocation.
So, really, the importance of building theteam, even though it's gonna take time.
Right?
And it's going to take a little bit ofconflict.
It's gonna take a little bit of headway.
Someone's gonna try and, you know, jockey forauthority.
(21:56):
It's gonna be it's gonna be a little painful onthe front end, but it's gonna pay off a million
times.
You know?
And that's really where the leader can kindaalright.
How do we form?
Let's let's talk about our concerns.
Let's talk about what do we wanna see?
How do we wanna communicate?
What are our expectations of communication?
What are some of our goals?
What are what's our plan for how we're gonnahandle conflict?
(22:18):
Is it going to be there?
So that's where it takes a little bit of timereally on their front end.
But if you want innovation, collaboration,productivity, efficiency with this group and
you want this group really being agile to kindause everyone's diverse perspectives, which is
really the ideal, why else are you forming ateam?
And you have to spend that time to kinda buildthat team and really get them all on the same
(22:39):
page.
Yeah.
That's really good.
You know, you mentioned about the young ITperson coming in or engineer, whatever it is,
and it reminded me of a situation not that Iwas involved in, but I was you know, because
people work from home, I get to hear some ofthese corporate conversations that go on.
(23:03):
And one was where you have this this youngperson who has a little bit of experience
wanting to make an impact on the team, very hasa strong you know, you've got a lot of strong
personalities here.
You have the experienced person who has gonethrough all the changes, who sees what's going
on.
You've got the young person who says, yeah, butwe've got all these new innovations and
(23:26):
everything coming on, and you're old.
You don't know what you're doing.
You've got the older person who's saying, theyoung kids are just you know, even though
you're smart, you really don't have theknowledge that goes on with the whole whole
system that's going on here.
So you've got these two very strong strongwilled, very smart, intelligent people that but
(23:50):
heads against each other.
And sometimes one goes behind the back of theother, and and then it gets found out you've
got all these problems going on.
So how do you handle, or how do you advise, youknow, the strong willed personalities to listen
to each other, take the best from each other,be part of the team to work together.
(24:13):
And then I have another question after that.
Yeah.
I mean, I you know, I I started to even thinklike, okay.
This is and this is something we're we'relooked at a lot now with the 2025 trends that
are out there, right, in in Right.
In Gallup and and MITs, and they've all gotthese these trends.
And that look that almost sounded like thismultigenerational workforce.
And so we've really looked at that, like, okay.
(24:34):
How do we coach that?
Because you do hear a lot of people sayingthat, Gen Zs and and baby boomers, and we've
got up to five generations working in inoffices now too as well.
You know, if you've got multiple headstrongpersonalities, what's the point of the team?
Yeah.
You know, blind to their values, blind to theirpurpose is the thing.
(24:54):
So that's really where yeah.
You're always there's gonna be that conflict,and that's where you can't ignore that conflict
because, yeah, if I've got a headstrong,whatever, 26 year old, I don't know, Harvard
grad, and I've got my, you know, my CIO is alsonow leading this team with this 25.
Yeah.
How do they how do they get to value each otherthan two as well?
(25:17):
And that's where I started kinda thinking,yeah, we've been doing a lot of research on
this multigenerational workforce.
How do we how do we get them?
I think we have to get them to appreciate theirwhat everyone brings is number one too as well.
Right?
And you hear all these stories and Gen z isthis or Gen x is this and all.
And I don't even know where all thesegenerations came from.
Also, everyone's labeled.
Right?
(25:38):
And but, I mean but it's true.
We do the the you know, there is differentvalues with a baby boomer versus a, you know,
Gen X or a millennial.
And Mhmm.
They've come up on technology different.
And so I I guess it looks to you you kinda haveto have to have some, you know, understanding
of what their values is or how they prefer towork.
(26:00):
And, again, where we get back down to basics.
That's instead of looking this as just thisteam of ICs that I you know, or or my SMEs
that, we've all gotta work together and let'sstart driving for results.
What what does the gen what does the gen zvalue?
What, you know, what does the baby boomervalue?
And and how does gen z wanna work?
Does gen z gen z likes texting?
(26:21):
They don't they don't wanna have a meeting ifthey don't need to, but a baby boomer might
look at that and might say, well, that'sactually way too informal for me, that feels a
little disrespectful.
And that's conflict.
But if we if we if we solve that, if we couldjust sit down and say, okay.
How do we wanna work?
What do we expect?
You know, the headstrong thing.
There's always gonna be that headstrong,especially if you're talking expertise or
(26:43):
you're you know, you you've you've been to thebest school, and this person didn't go to
college at all, they've grown throughout theorganization.
But, again, that's where we say, okay.
Well, let let's dig a little deeper.
What what do you value?
Do, you know, do we think we're gonna besuccessful?
How how do we bring that together and connectthat to the whether the team's larger purchase
their purpose, excuse me, or values, theorganization's larger purpose?
(27:04):
And that's where you can start getting the workaltogether.
Again, easier said than done.
This is not a I go in for twenty minutes andpoof, we've got a performing team.
This takes a lot of work on everyone's part,including the facilitator.
But sometimes that's why it is beneficial tobring in just just someone who can help
facilitate a conversation.
What I hear you saying, Jim, what I hear yousaying, Susan, and and this isn't working and
(27:27):
things of that nature.
And do we feel we need this many meetings orwhatever whatever the case is?
And let the team solve the problems themselves.
We always say this.
We don't have the answers.
I'm I'm not I'm never gonna go in and say, whatis right for your business?
I I have no idea, but you know.
Now let's figure out how how we can get thattogether.
Yeah.
You know, I was thinking about my my uncle.
(27:49):
He worked for the state.
They, you know, put the robes in and and didthe pavement and all of that.
And I remember he was talking about this youngman that came to work, and he was getting
closer to retirement.
And and the young man made a mistake.
You know, my uncle told him, he goes, I'm notyour boss, but this is the way I think it would
(28:11):
be better for it to go and you'll have betterresults.
And the young kid goes, no.
I'm just gonna do it the way that that Ithought I was supposed to do it.
And it's like, okay.
Well, the main boss came in and and said, whathappened here?
Why because it ended up becoming a mess.
And he goes, what happened?
He and he goes, well, you know, I did it thisway.
(28:33):
He goes, well, did Leonard tell you how to doit?
He goes, yeah.
He told me what should have been done.
He goes, well, why didn't you listen?
Because he, you know, he'd been there longenough.
He knew how everything worked and how thingswere supposed to be done to where now, I hear
some of the conversations in some of the rooms.
(28:54):
It's like when the the one that, excuse me, ismore experienced and has been there for a while
says, you know, I think this is the way itshould be done, automatically gets shut out.
Says, no.
You can't do it that way.
We're gonna do it this way.
So they go and do it, and and they make a messof it.
(29:14):
And then later, it's like, you know, I told youthis is gonna happen, that this is what it's
supposed to do.
And so then, you know, after all the problemsarise, then they have to go, okay.
Well, what did you say we were supposed to doso we can fix it?
Or someone else comes in and says, well, henever said that.
So they have to keep track of what they say.
(29:34):
I mean, it can be very frustrating.
So how do you, I guess that's another one ofthat that, you know, generational thing coming
in there.
What is a way that if you find yourself in theposition that you've got all these, to put it,
and words from from when I was a kid that thoseyoung whippersnappers that come in and wanna do
(29:58):
everything their way, how would you as as amore experienced person that maybe is not in a
position of authority, but you do have theknowledge and wisdom?
How do you handle something like that to stilllet them have their voice be heard, but say,
yes.
That's really great.
But this has been our experience in doing this,and this is why it doesn't work without making
(30:24):
them feel like you're bossing them around.
What'd you hire them for?
Would be my first question.
And I guess kinda getting to your stories is isthere you know, even to your story, what was
the point of of him saying we're gonna go youknow, I'm gonna do it this way regardless of
how we said it.
The leader might come in and say, well, and andthis could get back to what I said.
(30:45):
This is the way we've always done it.
This has always worked.
And and this very well could be a standardoperating procedure.
I'm not sure what
we're
talking about.
Right?
I mean, again, if this is how to do preventivemaintenance on a on a manufacturing line, yeah,
I'd follow that to a t.
But if you've got someone else that comes in,they're 22, they're 25, headstrong, but they
might have value.
(31:06):
Right?
There might be new ideas.
And so I think that's where why don't we startgetting back down the basis as opposed to
because that might be something this individuallooks at and goes, well, actually, I think we
might be able to do a little bit better thisway.
They've gotta feel comfortable saying it.
This individual just was like, no.
I'm gonna do it this way, it blew up in hisface.
But on the same note, a leader could have beenlike, okay.
(31:26):
Well, I I hear what you're saying.
Why what's tell me tell me more about that.
And that's where, you know, we can startgetting that value.
And that's why I opened going, well, why'd youhire him?
Right?
I mean, is it is it to just do the same thing?
You can get a robot to do that.
Right?
Everybody's retiring.
We need new people.
Yeah.
I I I you know, to have that you know, whatabout the you know, so innovation could suffer
(31:47):
in that.
And and that young man might have been like,well, I did have this idea, but it but it was a
mistake, or he didn't fully cultivate it, orthey they could have come up with you know,
collaborated on on what a better process couldhave been.
You know?
So that's the same yes.
What I would say to your audience is if you'rebringing in these young kids, they do have new
ideas.
They do know how, you know, the world works ina sense.
(32:08):
Right?
It it's a lot different than how we all grewup.
It's a lot different than how I grew up in theUber.
It's it's different, but that's not a bad thingnecessarily.
And you you still got the final call.
Right?
I mean, as a leader, you still got the finalcall.
But how do we get them to feel comfortable,comfortable with you, and saying, actually,
what if we did this?
Or this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
(32:28):
I don't get this.
Those are all great questions to ask.
Tell me more about this.
Look.
This is difficult.
And and as a leader or an entrepreneur oryou're in the c suite, you've got a million
priorities, a million things coming at you allthe time.
And it can sometimes be difficult to to findthat time to do it.
But what happens if you don't?
And I think there's one of the key things wealways like to say is is why are they there
(32:52):
then?
Is this gonna be the same mold?
Are you gonna be left behind?
Are you gonna be, you know, AT and T and allthese other companies that refuse to innovate
or refuse to kinda take that next step?
You've got a great product.
You got a great team.
Use them.
Right.
And it's your responsibility to be like, how dothey feel comfortable coming to you with with a
new process, a new idea, and collaboratetogether, you know, to potentially find
(33:14):
something new.
Like I it may go back to exactly what you saidyou were gonna do anyway.
That's fine.
But what about some new ideas?
Never a bet.
Yeah.
Oh, that's really great.
Yeah.
I like the insight on all of that.
Yeah.
So how do people get ahold of you?
Where do they find you at to help them out withtheir team?
(33:34):
Yeah.
You know, we're we're we're trying ourmarketing.
We don't do great.
So our website is, you know,leadership-reinvented.com.
That's our that's our main website, and then wedo LinkedIn, of course.
So they can just you know, they find me or findthe company on that end.
We do a lot of blogs.
We're a lot of what we do, our marketing isreally you know, I'm not selling anybody right
(33:55):
now.
Right?
And so a lot of it is just information.
We just did a live seminar, and we've got some,you know, training we're doing.
But, yeah, we're speaking of technical issues.
We had a little bit of technical issues, sowe're working on that.
But, we just did a live with, you know, peopleasking, you know, questions and things of that
nature.
So, and that was actually about the 2025 trendsand, like, what people can do.
(34:17):
And so, know, and how to kinda manage those.
So but, yeah, our website's probably the best,and, know, we we do a free consultation, you
know, where we just kinda do a half hour, fortyfive minutes and see if we can help you.
Because it potentially might not even be us.
Right?
There might be something else that your teamneeds, but, you know, we would look at
everything, again, very holistically.
(34:38):
Try some different modalities that just tokinda help get your team really to that next
level.
So That
sounds really great.
So do you have any closing thoughts for us?
There's a million things that are out thereright now.
I think, you know, and and certainly for youraudience, you know, with with these trends that
(35:00):
are coming, the workplace trends that and thischange, the multi general rate rational
workforce, AI, the great detachment, which islike an engagement number that is ugly, you
know, all of these stress levels that seem tobe increasing in the well-being of the issue.
The workplace is changing, but we're we have tofocus on and and a lot of what people say with
AI is we have to kinda start getting back tosome of the basics of our soft skills and our
(35:25):
and our empathy and what's called the humanhuman centric leadership, which is gonna be a
little different than, you know, empatheticleadership or really leading to the individual,
what we're calling leading to complex emotions.
Not that a leader is a is a counselor, but inin in in probably what you've heard a lot is
just skip back to basics.
Let's have the communication.
(35:45):
Let's have the talk.
You can't be wrong with me.
It's it's you know, again, I want to know.
I wanna learn even as an executive.
I want the feedback.
You know, there's the other thing we hear a lotabout is I I'm sorry.
I'm going down this crazy path.
But, like, especially the higher up and higherup you get, you get less and less feedback.
And so you don't know, but you also have toseek it out a little bit too as well.
And and your teams have to feel comfortabledoing whether it's a VP or I mean, it might be
(36:10):
a little unorthodox for, you know, it's youknow, first first year entry level client to
come up to you and give you feedback, but Idon't you know, tons of the organization.
But, again, it's a lot of just being open tothat feedback and really exploring it.
And as a leader, what's go what's going on witheveryone else too as well?
So if I am pushing the initiative, I am pushingmy team very hard, I'm just gonna tell them
(36:32):
that I understand this is kind of a crazy timeand, you know, just to be able to slow down.
Don't respond from, you know, your withoutreally pausing and kind of taking a breath to
know, okay.
Where's this person come from?
So if you've got a new employee and they seemstressed out and they're always stressed out
and you're like, well, I used to work fourteenhours a day.
That's that's true, and that's that iscertainly valid.
(36:53):
We all did.
Right?
But this person maybe never has had thatexperience, but they're still brilliant.
Then you hired them for a reason, and they dooffer value.
But they're coming from a different perspectiveof you, and that's different values from the
new different work life balance needs.
And that's where sometimes even as a leader orowner, it's good to kind of slow down and be
like, okay.
What does this person need?
(37:14):
Difficult.
Again, easier said than done, but that's gonnahelp your team grow as opposed to getting them
stuck, having them just go in the corner andsearching on, you know, LinkedIn looking for
their next job because they're miserablebecause they're not valued.
Right.
So I have a question for you, and maybe this isunfair to ask you.
I was reading one of John Maxwell's books, andhe talks about as a leader, you are training
(37:40):
the person who's going to take over for you.
And so you train this person, and then thisperson is trained.
Now they're gonna train the next person, butyou're there with them.
You're not actually gonna train the thirdperson.
I would be the second person then, I guess.
I don't know.
You're the first, second, third.
But you're gonna be there to help them ifthere's any situations arise that maybe they
(38:06):
didn't quite know how to handle.
So that when you're gone, the second personautomatically goes into your place and is
helping this third person now train the fourthperson.
So do you agree with that?
Is that a good way to do it that as a leader,you're there not to look over their shoulder,
(38:27):
but to guide them and help them to do whatyou're doing to get the job done?
Would that be something that would helpeliminate a lot of conflict?
I guess I I certainly get that point.
Right?
I mean, you're you're and I and I think I'vesaid it before.
You're always looking you're you're developinga replacement.
Right?
You're you're leading to your replacement.
But, again, it's it's so you can take more of astrategic approach.
(38:51):
You're building your team so they can operateif you've got a different meeting.
You're trying to optimize your time the mostand optimize your, optimize your team, get
their value up.
Right?
And I think there's and, yeah, some of thatvalue is being able to take over your
responsibility and potentially your role.
I do feel like that is eventually theresponsibility of the leader.
(39:12):
If they've got 50 people, you got 50 peoplepaying for the role.
But, yeah, ideally, you're they're developingwhere they can operate in your stead.
Okay.
%.
That's really great.
Thank you.
Yeah.
And if you have any questions or comments oraudience, you know, for for Kevin, you know,
get ahold of him.
What are some of the social media sites thatthey can get ahold of you, Kevin?
(39:35):
Right now, it's just right now, it's justLinkedIn.
Yeah.
LinkedIn.
We're we're
both Keep it simple.
Yeah.
Sir.
Absolutely.
And then Yeah.
Yeah.
We're our our courses, we're we're trying toexpand some of the courses and things of that
nature, especially as we see some of thesetrends.
But, yeah, for the most part, yeah, it'sLinkedIn or our website that's best for us.
So and our blog.
Okay.
That sounds wonderful.
And be sure to check out wisdom on the frontporch for a link to this this, podcast and
(40:01):
share it with others.
You can see the magazines that's there.
We now have the first issue out.
It's free to everybody who looks on there soyou can see what's going on with the magazine,
but you can subscribe for the other magazinescoming up.
Thank you so much, Kevin, for being here, andthank you, our audience, for being here.
We really appreciate you.
Remember Thank you.
There's something wonderful that's going tohappen, so be sure and keep your eyes open for
(40:24):
it.
Mhmm.
That's a lot of fun.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Thank you for joining us today on Wisdom on theFront Porch with your host, Ellis Kirkpatrick.
You can find us on our website,wisdomonthefrontporch.com, see previous
episodes of the podcast, and view issues of themagazine.
Did you know you can submit questions, leavereviews, or suggest topics?
(40:47):
You can also tell us where your favorite frontporch location is and what it means to you.
We hope you gain value and insight from today'sor previous talks.
We appreciate your support for us so we cancontinue to provide value and expertise to you
and others.
Subscribe to Wisdom on the Front Porch magazineand join in next week when we bring you another
great insight into the world of entrepreneurculture and lifestyle.
(41:11):
Make today a great day.
Always believe that something wonderful isgoing to happen.
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