December 18, 2024 • 53 mins
Historian Louis Pulford reveals how a 13th-century religious persecution became the blueprint for centuries of persecution. The Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229) marked the first time the Catholic Church turned its crusading armies inward, targeting the Cathar religious minority in southern France. Pulford, who recently completed his PhD research on firsthand accounts of the crusade, traces how tactics developed during this campaign - from systematic interrogations to public marking of the accused - would later be deployed in witch trials across Europe and colonial America. By understanding how these persecution methods were first developed and refined during the Albigensian Crusade, we gain crucial insight into the mechanics of later witch hunts and how established systems of persecution could be turned against any marginalized group. Join us as we explore this pivotal moment when methods of mass persecution were refined and institutionalized, setting dangerous precedents that would echo through the centuries.
United Nations Human Rights Council Resolution 47/8
Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And there's an apocryphal phrasegiven to Arno Amory, the
ecclesiastical leader of this army.
When asked if the crusader should be ordered to stop, he is
attributed with saying kill themall.
God will know his own. Welcome to Witch Hunt, the
(00:21):
podcast Building contacts for understanding witch trials.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. And I'm Sarah Jack.
Today we're exploring the Albigensen Crusade, a massive
persecution campaign that established patterns later seen
in witch hunts across Europe andcolonial America.
Our guest is Louis Pulford, who recently completed his PhD at
(00:41):
Lancaster University, Setting the Historia Albigensis, a
detailed contemporary account ofthe crusade written by a monk
who participated in it. We'll learn about the Cathars, a
religious group in Southern. France accused of heresy and how
the Catholic. Church's response to them
created methods of persecution. That would be used for.
Centuries to come. The parallels between this 13th
(01:04):
century crusade and later witch hunts are striking.
Let's get started with. Our interview.
With Louie Pullford. Thank you for coming on Witch
Hunt Podcast. It was so nice to see you at the
Witchcraft and Human Rights Conference in Lancaster.
Can you tell us who you are and about your interests and
expertise? Yeah, thank you very much for
(01:25):
inviting me on to the podcast. I was lovely to meet you at the
conference, too. I'm Louis Pulford.
I'm a recent PhD from Lancaster University, where I've been
working in or in conducting my doctoral research in the history
department. Before that, I undertook my
undergraduate and master's degrees at the University of
(01:46):
East Anglia, chiefly focused on the Albigensian Crusade, quite
specifically on one of the most detailed contemporary narratives
of the Albigensian Crusade, which is written by a monk,
Peter Levo de Sene, who participated in the Albigensian
Crusade and was quite involved with the leadership of the
(02:09):
crusade. And my research of offers the
first modern detailed analysis of his text, which is called the
Historianal begins this. And that's the topic of my PhD
research. And it was wonderful hearing
your talk at the Witchcraft and Human Rights Conference.
You really pointed out how the Albigensian Crusade established
(02:34):
a pattern of persecution that had echoes later on in the witch
hunts. What can you tell us about the
Albigensian Crusade? I think the Albigensian Crusade,
it's so this I think not many people have heard of, and those
who have heard of it aren't necessarily entirely clear what
(02:56):
it is. So I think if I speak to what
the crusade actually was and then get stuck into some of the
methods of persecution that are detectable in the crusade, the
Abigenzi Crusade was the first crusade undertaken against those
(03:18):
living in Christendom itself during the late 11th century and
the heat throughout the 12th century.
You have the more commonly knowncrusading movement, which was
undertaken against Muslims in the Holy Land in an effort to
retake Jerusalem, the holy places, but also other crusading
efforts such as those in Spain trying to drive Islamic rule out
(03:42):
of Spain, and also increasingly in the Baltic Sea, where you
have armed conversion movements essentially from the late 12th
century onwards. What you have in the Aberjenzi
Crusade is internal campaign against the enemies of
Christianity essentially, and it's undertaken against a sect
(04:02):
of those accused of being heretics in the South of France
in a region chiefly called the Langodock I.
I don't know how well your listeners know their French
geography, but it's the central southern around the cities of
Toulouse and Carcassonne and Bezier.
And it emerges from quite a longperiod of concern on the part of
(04:30):
the church authorities about these religious, what they
perceive to be religious dissidents in the South of
France. And from the mid 1140s onwards,
you have preachers, I can say maybe a little bit more with
these preachers well later, because that's quite
interesting. But preachers going to the South
(04:52):
of France and conducting preaching tours where they
preached against the heretics ofthe region and tried to convert
them back to orthodoxy, these carry on, it goes.
It follows church legislation. This is an era of Great Church
councils and in 1179 you have the Third Lateran Council where
Pope that is under the second Anthro falls a Great Church
(05:16):
council in Rome, and one of their chief concerns is that of
heresy. And at this point you get the
First Church legislation for an armed response to heresy
introduced in that a legger, a papal legate or churchman can
lead an armed force against heresy according to the Third
(05:36):
Lateran Council. And that happens.
A small force is LED in 1181 by Henry of Albano is the Abbot of
Clarevo. And the papal legate leads a
force against the castle of Lava, town of Lava and besieges
the heretics that are in there. But it all comes to a head in
(05:57):
12/08 when actually the Papal Legate of the time, Michael
Pierre of Castle now is murdered, seemingly by agents of
Raymond the 6th of Toulouse, whois the overlord of this region
of France and is accused of protecting heretics.
He views heretics as his subjects and gives a shelter to
(06:19):
them. He is accused of overseeing the
murder of the Papal legate and Pope Innocent the Third calls a
crusade against them against. Well, to start with, it's the
vice counties of Coxon and Bezier, and the crusading army
is levied and goes South. And throughout the first
(06:42):
campaigns, the first campaign isled by the Duke of Burgundy and
the Count of neither, as well asa new papal Leggett.
There's a lot of papal leggetts called Arno Amory, who's the
Abbot of the place called Seto, which is quite important in this
story, leads the army. But following that first
campaign, in which the towns of Carcassonne and Bezier quite
(07:03):
mercilessly sacked, a new leaderemerges, the Mac of Simon De
Montfort, who's the Lord of a small holding in northern
France, 35 kilometres southwest of Paris.
He's from that region, I should say, talking of patterns of
persecution, talking to speakingto patterns of persecution.
(07:24):
This first campaign is quite marked for its savagery against
the populace of Langodot, and the town of Bezier especially is
sacked especially brutally. And there's There's an
apocryphal phrase given to Arno Amory, the ecclesiastical leader
of this army. When asked if the crusader
(07:46):
should be ordered to stop, he isattributed with saying kill them
all. God will know his own.
It's unlikely that he did say that, but that sums up the
attitude taken in that first campaign quite well.
And Bezier is the entire populace.
(08:09):
It's essentially massacred moving forwards under the
leadership of Simon De Montfort.The crusade it it doesn't lessen
in brutality, but it settles into a pattern of persecution
far more. And he leads the crusade from
12/09 to 12/18 when he died outside the walls of Toulouse.
(08:30):
And what you get here is essentially he and a small group
of Knights replace siege to all the individual castles of the
region. This region is known for its
political fragmentation. It's built up with a patchwork
well who local seniors who are Lords of castles dominate small
(08:55):
sort of pockets of land and pay like nominal homage to the
counts of Toulouse. So the castles of the region are
many in manifold and very difficult to siege besieged
because this is quite a mountainous region.
So Simon and his ecclesiastical compatriots, he's always
(09:19):
accompanied by bishops or rabbits who are preaching the
crusade and preaching against heresy as the crusading army are
getting down to the business of doing the fighting and doing the
proceeding. And what tends to happen is the
town surrenders. And when they surrender, the
(09:40):
preachers, the ecclesiastical leaders, the crusade, go into
the town, often bearing the cross, and they reconsecrate the
church because they perceive that the Church has been made
impure by heresy and invite the populace to recount their heresy
and return to orthodoxy. And sometimes they do, and they
(10:06):
are returned to the bosom of theChurch, and other times they do
not. And the pattern that emerges
then is that the preachers remove, leave the town again, or
leave the castle and hand over the town to secular justice.
(10:29):
And Sam De Montfort and his nights go in, and the results
are characterized by essentiallymass burnings of those accused
of heresy in the town. The accounts of these events are
quite bizarre because most of our accounts are from Catholic
authors, and Peter, who I work on especially, comments that
(10:51):
those who refuse to recount their heresy throw themselves
gladly on the fire. They would rather burn than
convert. I find that unlikely.
And I think that what's actuallygoing on is quite a brutal
throwing of people onto these maths Piers.
I think you your most recent episode that you released was
(11:13):
with a historian at Cardiff, IanNikhil.
He was talking about how in the 17th century with witches there
was a combination of strangulation and burning.
Am I correct in saying that? Right?
Nothing quite so delicate at this period we're talking about.
It's mass pious, but that's the military aspect of the crusade.
(11:37):
And there's a far more politicalnarrative to this that goes
alongside the persecution, whichif you'd like me to, I can speak
to afterwards. Because an important part of
purse, the church will embrace this new machinery of
persecution. Basically what Simon De Montfort
dies outside of Toulouse in 12/18 and his son takes over the
leash the crusade. But his son is far less capable
(12:01):
and in 12/24 he relinquishes hisclaims to the lands that his
father took in the Langodock to King Louis the 8th of France.
And it's at this point where thekings of France get involved in
the Albajensian Crusade. And it is a large part of the
(12:22):
modern narrative of the Crusade that the campaign served as the
means by which the South of France was incorporated
incredibly brutally by the Kingdom of France, making France
as we know it today. And so Louis actually dies on
the Aberdeen say, and his claim to the langadot passes to his
(12:46):
son, who you might know well as Saint Louis.
You may have heard of Louis the 9th of France.
And in 12/29 Louis alongside hismother Blanchard Castile,
negotiates the Treaty of Paris, in which peace is essentially
made in the South, and this is worse, more of the machinery of
(13:07):
persecution that you might be familiar with from a later
period is implemented. There's a political angle.
Raymond the 7th Toulouse. At this point his father Raymond
Sig died, is forced to marry hisdaughter Joan to the brother of
Louis the 9th Alfons Poitier, and there heirs will inherit the
(13:30):
lands of Bremen of Toulouse, this massive southern
principality essentially subsuming that into the lands of
the King of France. But in terms of the repression
of heresy, the methods put in place, there's a University of
Toulouse forced to be set up. Bremen the 7th is forced to pay
for a University of Toulouse which teaches orthodox
(13:52):
Christianity, and then a set of laws are put in place.
So though essentially those who confess their heresy voluntarily
in the region, they aren't treated leniently, but they're
not persecuted. They're often relocated to a
region not known for heresy, andthey're forced to wear yellow
(14:15):
crosses to mark them as the constituent heretics, and they
could take no public office. They're also forced to attend
confession 3 * a year in order to make sure they're staying on
the straight and narrow, and this is a time when confession
isn't necessarily a regular event.
(14:36):
I think the 4th Latchman Councilin 12/15 encourages a good
Christian attend confession oncea year so recalcitrant heretics
are forced to attend triple the amount.
Just so I said to the church, keep tabs on them.
Non voluntary confessions of heresy.
(14:57):
That means they've been informedupon results in imprisonment and
penance, and all southerners swore an oath against heresy at
the age of discretion so that they are bound not to engage in
heresy. Those who would not recount
Heracy like we saw in the Abjensing Crusade are handed
(15:19):
over to secular justice and withsimilar results and die for
their heresy, which doesn't go down very well in the South.
Is not at this point that the South of France is under the
boot, the French as it were. And Inquisitors who are leading
(15:40):
these investigations into heresyare quite regularly beaten and
or killed by the local populace who don't want them there.
And this leads to in 1242 a group of inquisitors are
attacked and killed in Albie, which is one of the traditional
centres of heresy, and a Royal Army is sent S in 1244 and
(16:03):
besieged as the last heretical stronghold of monster Europe
which you should look at pictures of.
It is the most stunning cast you'll ever see.
And once monsecure falls 200 heretics were burned to death
following and that was the last real outburst of heresy.
(16:23):
But attempts to revive the Cathar Church are present
throughout the early 14th century, but never really come
to very much. Bernard Ghee, who is one of the
great inquisitors of his aid. I say great sarcastically.
He was an eager guy. He was an inquisitor in the
(16:44):
South between thirteen O 8 and 1323, and he carried out 930
sentences of heresy, of which 42were handed over to secular
justice. So there's a presence of heresy,
but also a willingness to recantto or at least say they've
(17:05):
recanted. So this is dwindling throughout
the 14th century. What do we need to know about
the heretical beliefs that they were getting arrested for?
So this is a matter of quite some debate within the scholarly
field at the moment. So the big debate amongst some
(17:29):
stories of the Alba Jensen Crusade, of which I'm not
necessarily one, is whether or not heresy existed in the 1st
place. So I think I'll answer in two
parts. I'll set.
I'll answer as if to say this iswhat it is.
If heresy did exist and what we understand, if heresy didn't
(17:49):
just give shape to both sides ofthe debate.
If heresy did exist, the beliefsthat really threaten the Church
about the nature of God, the nature of the world, and the
nature of the Bible. So it's worth saying that this
(18:15):
is a great age of almost heresies.
So you have lots of movement, monastic movements, especially
the Churchill authorities look out and not too sure about this,
but we think it's OK. So a great example is the Abbey
of Fontebrough where several England's kings are buried just
(18:38):
outside Poitier and elsewhere. So Henry the Second, Rich the
Lionheart and Elinor of Attain are buried at Fontebrough, but
it's founder, Robert of Abrazel,begins life as a sort of
wandering preacher and hermit. And in the early 12th century,
when he's around church authorities aren't sure whether
(19:00):
or not he's a heretic but fundamentally decide that he's
OK. Where they get more worried is
with heresy such as that in the South of France, which is more
commonly known as the Cathar Heresy, although some may
include to try to avoid that term because it's quite loaded
and drives southern Branson's tourist industry.
(19:21):
They're either called Cathars orAlbigensians.
They're called Albigensians at the time.
Some things that they preach arevery common to what some of the
major forces of Orthodoxy are preaching, which is priests
should undertake a very ascetic lifestyle and dress quite
plainly and not overindulge in their lifestyle.
(19:44):
And actually, when Orthodox churchmen are preaching against
our sea, they adopt A far more aesthetic lifestyle, because the
people of Langodock see the Cathar preachers living without
meat, eggs, any dairy and walking very plain clothes, and
(20:05):
then these bishops and abbot's dressed very richly in silk.
And the church fuzzy actually this isn't working.
And this is where movements suchas the Dominicans and the
Franciscans emerge sort of in response to this heresy in the
South of France as simpler living Friars.
It's a fine line that the beliefs that are of the real
(20:27):
issue are the Cathars are perceived to believe that there
are two gods, they're duellist heretics.
And the God that the Orthodox Church and Christians today
worship is the God of the spiritual realm.
And what we would call the devilis the God of the physical
(20:52):
realm. So everything earthly is of the
devil. Everything spiritual is of God
is what they believe and and as such part of being a Catholic is
the rejection of the earthly which is why they don't eat
dairy or any product of animals.And actually most Cathars appear
(21:18):
to can only convert fully as they're dying because
essentially you would waste awayif you converted early because
it's not a sustainable lifestyle.
But as a result of that they believe.
They believe that the Old Testament is a work of evil and
that the New Testament is the only Testament worth following.
(21:41):
And they reject John the Baptistas one of the Saints and they
reject a formal priesthood. So a lot of Catholic preachers
are wandering preachers that that's if if there is a heresy
in the South of France, that's what the church amongst some
other thing. So it was like a collective
(22:02):
heresy versus an individual heresy.
That's a really interesting question.
And it depend. So the church, the Orthodox
Church, is worried that there isa Cathar church hierarchy and
indeed there is some evidence ofCathar bishops and a formalised
(22:23):
Cathar Church. This is when it really depends
on if you believe heresy existedor if heresy didn't exist.
So if you follow the argument ofis is a history, he's a
fantastic historian, Mark Gregory Pegg.
He argues that there was no heresy and that the Alba Jensen
(22:47):
Crusade and the persecution of heresy represents the church
forging a heresy as an excuse towipe out a wandering cast of
ascetic preachers. And that is a means by which the
church exercised control of a region that it perceived it did
(23:07):
not have control of. I I think the Albigens Crusade,
whatever way you look at it, is a really tragic episode in
history. If you look at it, if you agree,
well, if you're convinced by what Peg's arguing, it just it
multiplies that tragedy tenfold because you have the church
essentially inventing a heresy and being responsible for the
(23:32):
massacre of thousands essentially to bring control,
bring a region of France and what they perceive as being a
moral orthodox control. I personally I'm not in, I don't
find it a fully convincing argument.
I think it falls somewhere in between.
I think the church emphasized oroverrated aspects of the heresy,
(23:57):
but I also think there the evidence we have is compelling
enough to suggest that there is a deviation from Catholic
doctrine in the South of France,which obviously doesn't justify
the response. The real life Cathars there.
(24:17):
You mentioned these civil or political, Were they tried or
they just rounded up and executed?
It depends when, when. OK, so if you're talking about
the high point of the crusade, we're talking, yeah, 1209
through to 1218, due process wasn't a high priority of the
(24:41):
crusading army. But during this time you have
separate to the crusading army really the sort of nascent
mechanisms of the Inquisition which would follow through.
So that's when those accused to piracy or suspected piracy would
(25:03):
be interviewed quite rigorously by an inquisitor who by the time
the Inquisition got going would often be a Dominican or a
Franciscan Friar LED most of themovements and they were
documented like vigorously. So you have what has referred to
colloquially as the Doac collection, which is in the
(25:25):
Bibliotheque Nationale, and we have records of all of the
Inquisitions in the South of France.
Because what would happen is youhave your Inquisitor
interrogating a suspected heretic, and you would have a
other cleric or Clare in the room writing everything down.
(25:49):
Actually it's worth saying this because the language is quite
important in the Albajanian Crusade because in the South of
France at this time they weren'tspeaking the same French as the
French. The north you have two major
dialects of French called the Langodoy and the Langodock.
So in the IT is named after how each dialect said yes.
(26:10):
So in the north you have the Langodoy which is WE and in the
South you have the Langodock which is yet which is yet which
is OC. You'd have the Inquisitor
questioning in either Latin or aform of Northern French A or met
(26:33):
in borough. The La Okatan population are
answering in Okatan, probably with a translator in the middle,
then as clerk writing it down, probably in northern French and
then translating it to Latin. This this isn't a collection I
worked much on. You have people who really get
(26:54):
into it, but the process of translate, like when I say that
a machinery of persecution is developing here, it is literally
that there is a very rigorous process by which these
inquisitions are being carried out because I think last,
because of the language barrier,they had to be quite rigorous
(27:18):
with how they do things. Once the.
Individual was in that seat being questioned.
Are they guilty? What was next for them?
Well it depends if you are willing to follow Orthodox
(27:39):
practice and most importantly ifyou're willing to tell the
Church who the real heretics areand inform you're not getting
off but you're treated relative.This is what I said.
I mentioned the yellow crosses. You have people who are former
(28:01):
heretics wearing yellow crosses to show people their former
heretics. They're not able to hold public
office, but if they've sworn to oppose heresy, they're attending
Mass regularly. They're attending that thrice.
You a confession, you're OK. You've been informed upon and
(28:23):
you're brought in and you're found guilty, but you're willing
to recant and you're willing to swear to Orthodoxy.
You'll be given quite rigorous penance and maybe a term of
imprisonment. But then following that, if
you've shown that you are indeeda good Orthodox Catholic Yellow
(28:47):
Cross, so on. If you refuse to recant your if
you are found guilty of heresy and refuse to recant your
heresy, then you're handed over to secular justice and then
secular justice. Do they hold a trial or what
happens there? No, the, the I, I, as I
(29:10):
understand it, the Church does the trial and the legwork and
you'll handle secular justice for punishment because the
church can't be seen to be drawing blood.
So that's inquisitions, kind of the judge.
And then the enforcers of the punishment are the secular.
(29:31):
Secular. Yeah.
OK, so they're told here's what the punishment should be and you
just do what you want, as I understand.
And well, it's not necessarily do what you want.
I think it's quite rigidly burning because there is A and
there's two reasons for that which but this is research I've
(29:54):
heard rather than research I've done.
One reason is there is a purifying aspect to dying by
fire, which is disgusting, but that's what the belief was.
Another aspect is there is a concern amongst the Church
(30:15):
authorities that if the our bodies of heretics left you will
that they would see a development of relic cults of
martyred heretics. So just as the Catholic Church
would, you would have cults developing round relics of
(30:38):
martyrs. So if you had sent Stephen's
ankle bone, that would be a source of devotion.
The remains of martyred heretics, they worried, would
become objects of devotion for heretics and inspire huge
generations of heretics. That kind of sounds.
(30:59):
Very interesting research on that wish I wish was mine but
isn't. Were there other so that would
be like? A possible ritual or practice
they would. Not want to see happen.
Were there any other ritual? Practices or beliefs attributed
to. Them.
That we could associate with. Witchcraft accusations.
(31:21):
I've never seen anything akin toa witch's Sabbath, for instance.
Their devil worship isn't a factor in the persecution of
heresy. There's rites of passage so that
the Catholics are accused of rejecting their baptism and not
(31:45):
and refusing to take or uphold oaths, which is a beat and
actually touches on some of the same things that later, which
Syracuse because that that's a breaking down of social
convention and that's a subversion of social order.
This is a world based on oaths. Oaths are incredibly important
(32:06):
and if you don't abide by an oath, everything falls apart.
And similar to baptism, I, I think baptism in this period
serves an important social spiritual function because to be
baptised, to be inducted into the community of the faithful
(32:27):
and to subvert that and reject that is to weaken the community
of the faithful. So that's where parallels it is
quite possible to draw because here the threat of heresy is a
threat to the social order, justas I think as I understand it,
witchcraft worth perceived witches were perceived as a
(32:50):
threat to social order, definitely.
And the rejection of baptism. We see that with the so-called
witches rejecting their Christian baptism and being re
baptized by the devil. You have that in Salem a lot of
devil baptisms. So we do see that a lot and, and
(33:10):
at least in the 13th century, that's terrifying to the
organised church because of course the church is responsible
for the maintaining and upholding of the integrity of
the souls of the vapel. So to reject baptism is to
essentially cast yourself out and reject the possibility of
(33:32):
salvation, which the person is not supposed for.
That is ultimately the Pope. But because this so this is the
great be able to goes alongside the great age of hospital
concern for the church, which iswhen the church essentially
(33:53):
really cracks down on making sure that people are aware of
the condition of their souls. So you have this, you have great
tracks passed out and this is what heresy is, this is how
often you should be going to confession.
This is what you do to make sureyour soul is in a good
(34:16):
condition. An example in England is when
you have Magna Carta being made the cornerstone that the legal
system is now to define. Magna Carta is punishable by its
communication, which is to be cast out at the church and the
(34:36):
church, the English church, makesure that that fact is broadcast
very widely. If you defy this set of laws,
you will be excommunicated. So don't do that, because we're
responsible for your souls and we want your souls to be
spiritually well. So the rejection of baptism is a
(35:02):
massive threat to what the church was trying to do at that
time. I'm also seeing how a conspiracy
involving this dualism. They're not necessarily
worshipping the devil or following meeting with him
without, you know, devil sabats and things that witches do, but
(35:23):
believing that he's a God, doesn't that kind of elevate him
into a a different role at leastthen what the Orthodox would
have believed to? Yes, it it it ascribes the devil
more power than the church wouldwant people to perceive.
But I think the bigger issue is orthodoxies that God created the
(35:47):
world. Catharism is that the devil
created the world as the matter of two creators.
So it's taking the act of creation away from God is the
deeper heresy there I think, if that makes sense.
One of the aspects of your research.
That I've found a. Connection with is just.
(36:10):
This rhetoric used. To push the narrative.
About. The heresy we really.
See that in accusing witches I'd.
Love to hear a little. Bit about how Peter.
Used. That narrative.
To drive the crusade just. Because it's very similar to
(36:33):
driving. These hunts.
In communities once the for instance, was Salem, as it
exploded and there were more witches to seek out, there was
narratives. Used it's important to view what
Peter Vleau Desanea was writing about heresy in terms of what
his purpose in writing in the 1st place was, which was to
(36:56):
justify the Albigensi crusade. But he he he began writing a
point where papal confidence in the crusade was quite deeply
shaken actually in 1213 Pope Innocent the third disavowed the
crusade and I've argued to mixedreception.
(37:17):
The Historiopaganzis was undertaken as part of a broader
rhetorical campaign to restore papal confidence in the crusade
and thereby re endorse the crusade.
Peter betrayings heresy, as he does in an attempt to convince
the Pope, Pope Innocent the 3rd,that heresy is still a very
(37:43):
present threat in the South of France.
So the way in which he does thatis, and I hope I'm answering
your questions, Sarah, he mostlyrelies on biblical rhetoric and
he casts his depiction of heresyin biblical terms.
(38:03):
So there's a couple of examples.There's he relates heresy to the
parable of the tares, which Christ gives in Matthew, in
which you have tares growing up in the field of the good sower.
No matter how good the sower is,you have tares coming up.
And the analysis of that parableis very different to what it
(38:28):
would be now because Christ goeson to say, don't RIP the tears
up because you're going to causedamage to the good part.
Separate it when harvesting. So basically, don't punish
heresy. God will do that at judgement.
But in the 13th century, it's perceived to be like, no, we
(38:50):
need to tear up the tears. In terms of justifying continued
crusading to the Pope, It's these tears are still very
present. We need to root them up as many
other examples I could talk about.
One that I think is especially striking is Peter refers to
(39:11):
heretic. The heres takes that they're
fighting as a generation of Vipers, which has manifold
meanings. So he's he's drawing on two
references here. 1 is to Christ teaching Christ refers to the
set Pharisees as a generation ofVipers are essentially damaging
the faith the faithfuls it wouldhave been the Jewish community
(39:36):
at that point, but in the 13th century it's viewed as the
faith, the community of the faithful relationship with God
and they're coming between God and the faithful but also Isidor
of Seville who wrote this massive etymology of everything
in creation and he assigns a moral assessment of everything
in creation. But in his description of Vipers
(39:56):
he has are frankly mad the idea that Vipers the mother beheads
the father following reproduction and then the young
tear themselves out of the mother, thus killing the mother
in the act of childbirth and essentially is the idea that the
(40:18):
Viper is conceived and born in the act of murder.
And so in using this rhetoric, Peter is saying.
Look, if we allow heresy to endure in the South, we're just
going to have this cyclical chaos in which the social order
is completely torn apart and will ultimately come between the
(40:44):
faithful and salvation again. It's always all coming if
there's to view faith and religion and social order is one
in the same in this period. And essentially what Peter's
saying is heresy is this existential threat to the social
order of Christendom, which I suppose if you look at the
(41:04):
beginning of the 17th century, which is there an existential
threat to the social order of the Commonwealth?
I suppose absolutely. And there's like an
ecclesiastical threat also by both groups undermining the
(41:24):
authority of the church. The Cathars were, Albigensians,
said, having their own itinerantpreachers and maybe bishops.
Obviously a threat to the established Catholic Church and
their authority, their power, their finances in every way.
(41:46):
Yeah. And the Orthodox Church doesn't
like to be threatened. Yeah.
Yeah, we see that throughout history.
Yeah, time and again. Yeah.
And actually that's sorry, I just had a point on the list of
one of the important things thatthose advocating the crusade do
is very much tie the beliefs of the Cathars to the ancient
(42:08):
heresies of like Mason Christianity.
So Peter doesn't necessarily, but a lot of his contemporaries
describe Cathars as Manakees, and Manichaeanism was an early
Christian heresy of the 4th century, and Saint Augustine
opposed Manichaeanism and Faustus.
(42:29):
And there's this drawing of a chronology of heresy and a
chronology of faithlessness thatthose justifying the album
today, Genesee and Crusade placethemselves within.
It's like this isn't a new threat to the Church.
This is a millennial threat thatwe need to be combating time and
(42:49):
again, time and again, time and again, thereby so justifying
this repeat cycle of persecution.
It feels like, frankly, a game of whack a mole.
You just have the heresy pop up and you suppress it and it pops
up again and eventually it pops up heresy.
(43:10):
But there's also witchcraft things like that that pop up and
they need to be well, the same way yes, and I think the
Reformation probably just sets all that alight.
I think when Luther is doing allhis Lutheran things, he's
compared to the Cathars of old by those opposing him and in is
(43:34):
quite is something that I want to pursue more seriously.
But during the French Wars of Religion, in sort of the 16th,
early 17th centuries, you get this quite intense copying of
manuscripts or about from the year of the Aberjenzi Crusade,
copying and translations, I think half of our surviving
(43:58):
manuscripts of the Historia Aberjenesus, early 17th century
French translations. So there's an interest during
the French Wars of Religion where you have this religious
divide in France again, in what was going on back in the 13th
century during the Alba Jensen Crusade, which I'd like to look
more into because it's really interesting.
(44:19):
Yeah. Sounds like kind of a manual
against heresy. The way about a demonology is
manual against witchcraft. Precisely.
And actually, that's a real genre in the 12th and 13th
century. It's not called a demonology.
(44:40):
They're referred to as exemplar.And you have preachers juicing
exemplar collections, which are these little snippets, like
little anecdotes to be regurgitated in sermons.
And so essentially a preacher should have a textual arsenal of
(45:02):
arguments and preaching tools, many of which concern themselves
with heresy. So but when preaching in at
least, and oh, I've got this onefor heresy, or if someone
challenges him whilst preaching as heresy, he has the exemplar
ready to combat it, which they're fascinating documents,
(45:25):
some kind of wacky ones. But yeah, so that's again a
similarities preaching tools. Yeah, learning about this
crusade, it's been very revelatory for me to know that
there's this widespread hunt forheretics so many centuries
(45:47):
before the hunting that we usually think about on this
podcast. Were there other heresies in
addition to Catharism at this time?
Yes, quite a lot, actually. Catharism attracts the most
attention, I think mostly because of the sheer scale of
(46:09):
the reaction and suppression of Catherism.
But the 12th century especially and into the 13th century was
marred by instances of heresy. So I think if we go back to even
earlier the 12th century, in 1022 a sect of heretics are
(46:29):
discovered in Olio during the reign of Robert the Second of
France. And they are, they represent the
first burning of heretics in Christendom since the 4th or 5th
century. So that's like the
reintroduction of the threat of heresy to Christendom.
But then through the 12th century you have the Cathars, of
(46:52):
course, you have the Bogomil heresy, which appears to have
come from Bulgaria but moved westward.
And as there's a long standing debate, which I try not to get
involved with, about whether or not Bogomilism is the sort of
pair and heresy. Catharism, I'm inclined to think
(47:14):
it's not, but some people think that it is.
The other sort of large movementof heresy, contemporary
Catharism, is Voldenzianism, which has some of the same
beliefs as Catharism, but the the beliefs are less
controversial. I think Peach Vlayvodosene
(47:36):
characterises them. He talks to the Bolden.
Then they. They were evil men, but very
much less perverted than other heretics.
And they agreed with all such Christianity in many matters,
and differed in some. Their error arose in four major
points. They wore sandals in imitation
of the Apostles. Witches.
(47:58):
Awful. They also condemned the swearing
of oaths and their major heresy was that it was OK for anyone to
administer communion even thoughthey hadn't received holy
orders, which wasn't very good, but not nearly as bad as the
Cathars. I think wearing saddles and
giving a communion was more acceptable than believing the
(48:20):
devil created the world. Mary Bingham is back with
another enlightening minute withMary.
The early sources regarding heresy were written by dissonant
voices or lost voices, and this reflected a critique of modern
society. According to historian Dr.
(48:41):
Claire Taylor, these dissenting beliefs created a Gray area in
defining heresy by challenging what would have been deemed by
some as necessary change in the church versus what was actually
defined as heretical in medievaltimes.
Historians who specialize in heresy, such as Louis Pulford
(49:04):
and Claire Taylor, can look at early text and separate what was
actually heretical versus those views which challenge what
simply threatens the church. Please listen to Doctor Claire
Taylor on YouTube. The link to her interviews are
in the show notes. Thank you, Mary.
(49:25):
And now Sarah has End witch hunts news.
Haiti holds a profound place in the Americas after becoming the
second independent nation in thehemisphere in 18 O Four and the
first independent Caribbean state.
The United States would not recognize this achievement until
1862, when it finally established diplomatic relations
(49:46):
by appointing Benjamin F Whittenas its first commissioner and
consul general to Haiti, markingEU s s formal acknowledgement of
Haiti's sovereignty. Named for its mountainous
terrain, Haiti's independence from France marked a
revolutionary moment in world history.
Media reports of witchcraft accusations and violent attacks
(50:06):
against elderly Haitians have circulated around the globe,
raising many questions and assumptions.
Let's learn what we can togetherabout Haiti's rich culture and
the organizations working to protect human rights there.
But first, please join me in 10.Seconds of silence to
acknowledge. The innocent men and women who
recently lost their lives in theelder witchcraft allegations
(50:29):
attack. To read more.
Specifics from locals about the innocent lives lost.
Please check the news link in our show notes.
Now let's learn about a Haitian organization striving to
(50:49):
promote, protect and defend the fundamental human rights of all
Haitians. Quote with many hands.
The load is not heavy. That's a Haitian proverb and is
the header on the donation page for Haiti's National Human
Rights Defense Network. In the organization's website
About section, it states that the roots of democracy are
(51:09):
desperately trying to take hold in Haiti.
Here is a foundational definition of democracy.
Democracy is a system of government in which power lies
with the people who either exercise it directly or through
freely elected representatives. Let's examine how Haiti's
National Human Rights Defense Network describes their crucial
work on their website. According to the National Human
(51:31):
Rights Defense Network's websitestatement, democracy cannot.
Happen with a flawed. Foundation in Haiti the
fundamental principles of justice are not applied to those
with power and influence, money and eminence, as different
socioeconomic status means different status and treatment
before the law. The National Human Rights
Defense Network operates throughtwo essential groups, the
(51:52):
Port-au-Prince Central staff andthe local departmental network
staff and volunteers. The Central Office comprises 12
working group commissions focused on critical areas like
human rights education, police monitoring, prison oversight,
and judicial system monitoring. Their local departmental
networks consist of trained human rights defenders committed
to fostering human rights in their communities to persevere.
(52:15):
The National Human Rights Network depends on the
commitment and solidarity of concerned individuals and
organizations, both in Haiti andabroad, to support their fight
against injustice and impunity. They call on all individuals,
organizations, and governments to demonstrate their commitment
to these precious principles by seeking change.
Where these principles are ignored, please reach out to
(52:37):
them. If your agency has support to
offer at web.rnddh.org, you can also find this link in the
episode show description as Executive Director of End Witch
Hunts. I want to.
Emphasize our dedication to United Nations Resolution 47
Eight the elimination of harmfulpractices related to accusations
(52:58):
of witchcraft and ritual attacks, passed by the UN Human
Rights Council in June 2021 thisresolution specifically
addresses. The harmful practices.
We're seeing today we also want to express our dedication to
standing with the people of Haiti who helped define freedom
in the Americas. Together with the international
network of advocates, we stand committed to implementing this
(53:20):
resolution and ending persecution based on witchcraft
accusations throughout the Americas and worldwide.
Thank you, Sarah. You're welcome.
And thank you for tuning into your witch hunt.
Join us every week. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
And there's an apocryphal phrasegiven to Arno Amory, the
ecclesiastical leader of this army.
When asked if the crusader should be ordered to stop, he is
attributed with saying kill themall.
God will know his own. Welcome to Witch Hunt, the
(00:21):
podcast Building contacts for understanding witch trials.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. And I'm Sarah Jack.
Today we're exploring the Albigensen Crusade, a massive
persecution campaign that established patterns later seen
in witch hunts across Europe andcolonial America.
Our guest is Louis Pulford, who recently completed his PhD at
(00:41):
Lancaster University, Setting the Historia Albigensis, a
detailed contemporary account ofthe crusade written by a monk
who participated in it. We'll learn about the Cathars, a
religious group in Southern. France accused of heresy and how
the Catholic. Church's response to them
created methods of persecution. That would be used for.
Centuries to come. The parallels between this 13th
(01:04):
century crusade and later witch hunts are striking.
Let's get started with. Our interview.
With Louie Pullford. Thank you for coming on Witch
Hunt Podcast. It was so nice to see you at the
Witchcraft and Human Rights Conference in Lancaster.
Can you tell us who you are and about your interests and
expertise? Yeah, thank you very much for
(01:25):
inviting me on to the podcast. I was lovely to meet you at the
conference, too. I'm Louis Pulford.
I'm a recent PhD from Lancaster University, where I've been
working in or in conducting my doctoral research in the history
department. Before that, I undertook my
undergraduate and master's degrees at the University of
(01:46):
East Anglia, chiefly focused on the Albigensian Crusade, quite
specifically on one of the most detailed contemporary narratives
of the Albigensian Crusade, which is written by a monk,
Peter Levo de Sene, who participated in the Albigensian
Crusade and was quite involved with the leadership of the
(02:09):
crusade. And my research of offers the
first modern detailed analysis of his text, which is called the
Historianal begins this. And that's the topic of my PhD
research. And it was wonderful hearing
your talk at the Witchcraft and Human Rights Conference.
You really pointed out how the Albigensian Crusade established
(02:34):
a pattern of persecution that had echoes later on in the witch
hunts. What can you tell us about the
Albigensian Crusade? I think the Albigensian Crusade,
it's so this I think not many people have heard of, and those
who have heard of it aren't necessarily entirely clear what
(02:56):
it is. So I think if I speak to what
the crusade actually was and then get stuck into some of the
methods of persecution that are detectable in the crusade, the
Abigenzi Crusade was the first crusade undertaken against those
(03:18):
living in Christendom itself during the late 11th century and
the heat throughout the 12th century.
You have the more commonly knowncrusading movement, which was
undertaken against Muslims in the Holy Land in an effort to
retake Jerusalem, the holy places, but also other crusading
efforts such as those in Spain trying to drive Islamic rule out
(03:42):
of Spain, and also increasingly in the Baltic Sea, where you
have armed conversion movements essentially from the late 12th
century onwards. What you have in the Aberjenzi
Crusade is internal campaign against the enemies of
Christianity essentially, and it's undertaken against a sect
(04:02):
of those accused of being heretics in the South of France
in a region chiefly called the Langodock I.
I don't know how well your listeners know their French
geography, but it's the central southern around the cities of
Toulouse and Carcassonne and Bezier.
And it emerges from quite a longperiod of concern on the part of
(04:30):
the church authorities about these religious, what they
perceive to be religious dissidents in the South of
France. And from the mid 1140s onwards,
you have preachers, I can say maybe a little bit more with
these preachers well later, because that's quite
interesting. But preachers going to the South
(04:52):
of France and conducting preaching tours where they
preached against the heretics ofthe region and tried to convert
them back to orthodoxy, these carry on, it goes.
It follows church legislation. This is an era of Great Church
councils and in 1179 you have the Third Lateran Council where
Pope that is under the second Anthro falls a Great Church
(05:16):
council in Rome, and one of their chief concerns is that of
heresy. And at this point you get the
First Church legislation for an armed response to heresy
introduced in that a legger, a papal legate or churchman can
lead an armed force against heresy according to the Third
(05:36):
Lateran Council. And that happens.
A small force is LED in 1181 by Henry of Albano is the Abbot of
Clarevo. And the papal legate leads a
force against the castle of Lava, town of Lava and besieges
the heretics that are in there. But it all comes to a head in
(05:57):
12/08 when actually the Papal Legate of the time, Michael
Pierre of Castle now is murdered, seemingly by agents of
Raymond the 6th of Toulouse, whois the overlord of this region
of France and is accused of protecting heretics.
He views heretics as his subjects and gives a shelter to
(06:19):
them. He is accused of overseeing the
murder of the Papal legate and Pope Innocent the Third calls a
crusade against them against. Well, to start with, it's the
vice counties of Coxon and Bezier, and the crusading army
is levied and goes South. And throughout the first
(06:42):
campaigns, the first campaign isled by the Duke of Burgundy and
the Count of neither, as well asa new papal Leggett.
There's a lot of papal leggetts called Arno Amory, who's the
Abbot of the place called Seto, which is quite important in this
story, leads the army. But following that first
campaign, in which the towns of Carcassonne and Bezier quite
(07:03):
mercilessly sacked, a new leaderemerges, the Mac of Simon De
Montfort, who's the Lord of a small holding in northern
France, 35 kilometres southwest of Paris.
He's from that region, I should say, talking of patterns of
persecution, talking to speakingto patterns of persecution.
(07:24):
This first campaign is quite marked for its savagery against
the populace of Langodot, and the town of Bezier especially is
sacked especially brutally. And there's There's an
apocryphal phrase given to Arno Amory, the ecclesiastical leader
of this army. When asked if the crusader
(07:46):
should be ordered to stop, he isattributed with saying kill them
all. God will know his own.
It's unlikely that he did say that, but that sums up the
attitude taken in that first campaign quite well.
And Bezier is the entire populace.
(08:09):
It's essentially massacred moving forwards under the
leadership of Simon De Montfort.The crusade it it doesn't lessen
in brutality, but it settles into a pattern of persecution
far more. And he leads the crusade from
12/09 to 12/18 when he died outside the walls of Toulouse.
(08:30):
And what you get here is essentially he and a small group
of Knights replace siege to all the individual castles of the
region. This region is known for its
political fragmentation. It's built up with a patchwork
well who local seniors who are Lords of castles dominate small
(08:55):
sort of pockets of land and pay like nominal homage to the
counts of Toulouse. So the castles of the region are
many in manifold and very difficult to siege besieged
because this is quite a mountainous region.
So Simon and his ecclesiastical compatriots, he's always
(09:19):
accompanied by bishops or rabbits who are preaching the
crusade and preaching against heresy as the crusading army are
getting down to the business of doing the fighting and doing the
proceeding. And what tends to happen is the
town surrenders. And when they surrender, the
(09:40):
preachers, the ecclesiastical leaders, the crusade, go into
the town, often bearing the cross, and they reconsecrate the
church because they perceive that the Church has been made
impure by heresy and invite the populace to recount their heresy
and return to orthodoxy. And sometimes they do, and they
(10:06):
are returned to the bosom of theChurch, and other times they do
not. And the pattern that emerges
then is that the preachers remove, leave the town again, or
leave the castle and hand over the town to secular justice.
(10:29):
And Sam De Montfort and his nights go in, and the results
are characterized by essentiallymass burnings of those accused
of heresy in the town. The accounts of these events are
quite bizarre because most of our accounts are from Catholic
authors, and Peter, who I work on especially, comments that
(10:51):
those who refuse to recount their heresy throw themselves
gladly on the fire. They would rather burn than
convert. I find that unlikely.
And I think that what's actuallygoing on is quite a brutal
throwing of people onto these maths Piers.
I think you your most recent episode that you released was
(11:13):
with a historian at Cardiff, IanNikhil.
He was talking about how in the 17th century with witches there
was a combination of strangulation and burning.
Am I correct in saying that? Right?
Nothing quite so delicate at this period we're talking about.
It's mass pious, but that's the military aspect of the crusade.
(11:37):
And there's a far more politicalnarrative to this that goes
alongside the persecution, whichif you'd like me to, I can speak
to afterwards. Because an important part of
purse, the church will embrace this new machinery of
persecution. Basically what Simon De Montfort
dies outside of Toulouse in 12/18 and his son takes over the
leash the crusade. But his son is far less capable
(12:01):
and in 12/24 he relinquishes hisclaims to the lands that his
father took in the Langodock to King Louis the 8th of France.
And it's at this point where thekings of France get involved in
the Albajensian Crusade. And it is a large part of the
(12:22):
modern narrative of the Crusade that the campaign served as the
means by which the South of France was incorporated
incredibly brutally by the Kingdom of France, making France
as we know it today. And so Louis actually dies on
the Aberdeen say, and his claim to the langadot passes to his
(12:46):
son, who you might know well as Saint Louis.
You may have heard of Louis the 9th of France.
And in 12/29 Louis alongside hismother Blanchard Castile,
negotiates the Treaty of Paris, in which peace is essentially
made in the South, and this is worse, more of the machinery of
(13:07):
persecution that you might be familiar with from a later
period is implemented. There's a political angle.
Raymond the 7th Toulouse. At this point his father Raymond
Sig died, is forced to marry hisdaughter Joan to the brother of
Louis the 9th Alfons Poitier, and there heirs will inherit the
(13:30):
lands of Bremen of Toulouse, this massive southern
principality essentially subsuming that into the lands of
the King of France. But in terms of the repression
of heresy, the methods put in place, there's a University of
Toulouse forced to be set up. Bremen the 7th is forced to pay
for a University of Toulouse which teaches orthodox
(13:52):
Christianity, and then a set of laws are put in place.
So though essentially those who confess their heresy voluntarily
in the region, they aren't treated leniently, but they're
not persecuted. They're often relocated to a
region not known for heresy, andthey're forced to wear yellow
(14:15):
crosses to mark them as the constituent heretics, and they
could take no public office. They're also forced to attend
confession 3 * a year in order to make sure they're staying on
the straight and narrow, and this is a time when confession
isn't necessarily a regular event.
(14:36):
I think the 4th Latchman Councilin 12/15 encourages a good
Christian attend confession oncea year so recalcitrant heretics
are forced to attend triple the amount.
Just so I said to the church, keep tabs on them.
Non voluntary confessions of heresy.
(14:57):
That means they've been informedupon results in imprisonment and
penance, and all southerners swore an oath against heresy at
the age of discretion so that they are bound not to engage in
heresy. Those who would not recount
Heracy like we saw in the Abjensing Crusade are handed
(15:19):
over to secular justice and withsimilar results and die for
their heresy, which doesn't go down very well in the South.
Is not at this point that the South of France is under the
boot, the French as it were. And Inquisitors who are leading
(15:40):
these investigations into heresyare quite regularly beaten and
or killed by the local populace who don't want them there.
And this leads to in 1242 a group of inquisitors are
attacked and killed in Albie, which is one of the traditional
centres of heresy, and a Royal Army is sent S in 1244 and
(16:03):
besieged as the last heretical stronghold of monster Europe
which you should look at pictures of.
It is the most stunning cast you'll ever see.
And once monsecure falls 200 heretics were burned to death
following and that was the last real outburst of heresy.
(16:23):
But attempts to revive the Cathar Church are present
throughout the early 14th century, but never really come
to very much. Bernard Ghee, who is one of the
great inquisitors of his aid. I say great sarcastically.
He was an eager guy. He was an inquisitor in the
(16:44):
South between thirteen O 8 and 1323, and he carried out 930
sentences of heresy, of which 42were handed over to secular
justice. So there's a presence of heresy,
but also a willingness to recantto or at least say they've
(17:05):
recanted. So this is dwindling throughout
the 14th century. What do we need to know about
the heretical beliefs that they were getting arrested for?
So this is a matter of quite some debate within the scholarly
field at the moment. So the big debate amongst some
(17:29):
stories of the Alba Jensen Crusade, of which I'm not
necessarily one, is whether or not heresy existed in the 1st
place. So I think I'll answer in two
parts. I'll set.
I'll answer as if to say this iswhat it is.
If heresy did exist and what we understand, if heresy didn't
(17:49):
just give shape to both sides ofthe debate.
If heresy did exist, the beliefsthat really threaten the Church
about the nature of God, the nature of the world, and the
nature of the Bible. So it's worth saying that this
(18:15):
is a great age of almost heresies.
So you have lots of movement, monastic movements, especially
the Churchill authorities look out and not too sure about this,
but we think it's OK. So a great example is the Abbey
of Fontebrough where several England's kings are buried just
(18:38):
outside Poitier and elsewhere. So Henry the Second, Rich the
Lionheart and Elinor of Attain are buried at Fontebrough, but
it's founder, Robert of Abrazel,begins life as a sort of
wandering preacher and hermit. And in the early 12th century,
when he's around church authorities aren't sure whether
(19:00):
or not he's a heretic but fundamentally decide that he's
OK. Where they get more worried is
with heresy such as that in the South of France, which is more
commonly known as the Cathar Heresy, although some may
include to try to avoid that term because it's quite loaded
and drives southern Branson's tourist industry.
(19:21):
They're either called Cathars orAlbigensians.
They're called Albigensians at the time.
Some things that they preach arevery common to what some of the
major forces of Orthodoxy are preaching, which is priests
should undertake a very ascetic lifestyle and dress quite
plainly and not overindulge in their lifestyle.
(19:44):
And actually, when Orthodox churchmen are preaching against
our sea, they adopt A far more aesthetic lifestyle, because the
people of Langodock see the Cathar preachers living without
meat, eggs, any dairy and walking very plain clothes, and
(20:05):
then these bishops and abbot's dressed very richly in silk.
And the church fuzzy actually this isn't working.
And this is where movements suchas the Dominicans and the
Franciscans emerge sort of in response to this heresy in the
South of France as simpler living Friars.
It's a fine line that the beliefs that are of the real
(20:27):
issue are the Cathars are perceived to believe that there
are two gods, they're duellist heretics.
And the God that the Orthodox Church and Christians today
worship is the God of the spiritual realm.
And what we would call the devilis the God of the physical
(20:52):
realm. So everything earthly is of the
devil. Everything spiritual is of God
is what they believe and and as such part of being a Catholic is
the rejection of the earthly which is why they don't eat
dairy or any product of animals.And actually most Cathars appear
(21:18):
to can only convert fully as they're dying because
essentially you would waste awayif you converted early because
it's not a sustainable lifestyle.
But as a result of that they believe.
They believe that the Old Testament is a work of evil and
that the New Testament is the only Testament worth following.
(21:41):
And they reject John the Baptistas one of the Saints and they
reject a formal priesthood. So a lot of Catholic preachers
are wandering preachers that that's if if there is a heresy
in the South of France, that's what the church amongst some
other thing. So it was like a collective
(22:02):
heresy versus an individual heresy.
That's a really interesting question.
And it depend. So the church, the Orthodox
Church, is worried that there isa Cathar church hierarchy and
indeed there is some evidence ofCathar bishops and a formalised
(22:23):
Cathar Church. This is when it really depends
on if you believe heresy existedor if heresy didn't exist.
So if you follow the argument ofis is a history, he's a
fantastic historian, Mark Gregory Pegg.
He argues that there was no heresy and that the Alba Jensen
(22:47):
Crusade and the persecution of heresy represents the church
forging a heresy as an excuse towipe out a wandering cast of
ascetic preachers. And that is a means by which the
church exercised control of a region that it perceived it did
(23:07):
not have control of. I I think the Albigens Crusade,
whatever way you look at it, is a really tragic episode in
history. If you look at it, if you agree,
well, if you're convinced by what Peg's arguing, it just it
multiplies that tragedy tenfold because you have the church
essentially inventing a heresy and being responsible for the
(23:32):
massacre of thousands essentially to bring control,
bring a region of France and what they perceive as being a
moral orthodox control. I personally I'm not in, I don't
find it a fully convincing argument.
I think it falls somewhere in between.
I think the church emphasized oroverrated aspects of the heresy,
(23:57):
but I also think there the evidence we have is compelling
enough to suggest that there is a deviation from Catholic
doctrine in the South of France,which obviously doesn't justify
the response. The real life Cathars there.
(24:17):
You mentioned these civil or political, Were they tried or
they just rounded up and executed?
It depends when, when. OK, so if you're talking about
the high point of the crusade, we're talking, yeah, 1209
through to 1218, due process wasn't a high priority of the
(24:41):
crusading army. But during this time you have
separate to the crusading army really the sort of nascent
mechanisms of the Inquisition which would follow through.
So that's when those accused to piracy or suspected piracy would
(25:03):
be interviewed quite rigorously by an inquisitor who by the time
the Inquisition got going would often be a Dominican or a
Franciscan Friar LED most of themovements and they were
documented like vigorously. So you have what has referred to
colloquially as the Doac collection, which is in the
(25:25):
Bibliotheque Nationale, and we have records of all of the
Inquisitions in the South of France.
Because what would happen is youhave your Inquisitor
interrogating a suspected heretic, and you would have a
other cleric or Clare in the room writing everything down.
(25:49):
Actually it's worth saying this because the language is quite
important in the Albajanian Crusade because in the South of
France at this time they weren'tspeaking the same French as the
French. The north you have two major
dialects of French called the Langodoy and the Langodock.
So in the IT is named after how each dialect said yes.
(26:10):
So in the north you have the Langodoy which is WE and in the
South you have the Langodock which is yet which is yet which
is OC. You'd have the Inquisitor
questioning in either Latin or aform of Northern French A or met
(26:33):
in borough. The La Okatan population are
answering in Okatan, probably with a translator in the middle,
then as clerk writing it down, probably in northern French and
then translating it to Latin. This this isn't a collection I
worked much on. You have people who really get
(26:54):
into it, but the process of translate, like when I say that
a machinery of persecution is developing here, it is literally
that there is a very rigorous process by which these
inquisitions are being carried out because I think last,
because of the language barrier,they had to be quite rigorous
(27:18):
with how they do things. Once the.
Individual was in that seat being questioned.
Are they guilty? What was next for them?
Well it depends if you are willing to follow Orthodox
(27:39):
practice and most importantly ifyou're willing to tell the
Church who the real heretics areand inform you're not getting
off but you're treated relative.This is what I said.
I mentioned the yellow crosses. You have people who are former
(28:01):
heretics wearing yellow crosses to show people their former
heretics. They're not able to hold public
office, but if they've sworn to oppose heresy, they're attending
Mass regularly. They're attending that thrice.
You a confession, you're OK. You've been informed upon and
(28:23):
you're brought in and you're found guilty, but you're willing
to recant and you're willing to swear to Orthodoxy.
You'll be given quite rigorous penance and maybe a term of
imprisonment. But then following that, if
you've shown that you are indeeda good Orthodox Catholic Yellow
(28:47):
Cross, so on. If you refuse to recant your if
you are found guilty of heresy and refuse to recant your
heresy, then you're handed over to secular justice and then
secular justice. Do they hold a trial or what
happens there? No, the, the I, I, as I
(29:10):
understand it, the Church does the trial and the legwork and
you'll handle secular justice for punishment because the
church can't be seen to be drawing blood.
So that's inquisitions, kind of the judge.
And then the enforcers of the punishment are the secular.
(29:31):
Secular. Yeah.
OK, so they're told here's what the punishment should be and you
just do what you want, as I understand.
And well, it's not necessarily do what you want.
I think it's quite rigidly burning because there is A and
there's two reasons for that which but this is research I've
(29:54):
heard rather than research I've done.
One reason is there is a purifying aspect to dying by
fire, which is disgusting, but that's what the belief was.
Another aspect is there is a concern amongst the Church
(30:15):
authorities that if the our bodies of heretics left you will
that they would see a development of relic cults of
martyred heretics. So just as the Catholic Church
would, you would have cults developing round relics of
(30:38):
martyrs. So if you had sent Stephen's
ankle bone, that would be a source of devotion.
The remains of martyred heretics, they worried, would
become objects of devotion for heretics and inspire huge
generations of heretics. That kind of sounds.
(30:59):
Very interesting research on that wish I wish was mine but
isn't. Were there other so that would
be like? A possible ritual or practice
they would. Not want to see happen.
Were there any other ritual? Practices or beliefs attributed
to. Them.
That we could associate with. Witchcraft accusations.
(31:21):
I've never seen anything akin toa witch's Sabbath, for instance.
Their devil worship isn't a factor in the persecution of
heresy. There's rites of passage so that
the Catholics are accused of rejecting their baptism and not
(31:45):
and refusing to take or uphold oaths, which is a beat and
actually touches on some of the same things that later, which
Syracuse because that that's a breaking down of social
convention and that's a subversion of social order.
This is a world based on oaths. Oaths are incredibly important
(32:06):
and if you don't abide by an oath, everything falls apart.
And similar to baptism, I, I think baptism in this period
serves an important social spiritual function because to be
baptised, to be inducted into the community of the faithful
(32:27):
and to subvert that and reject that is to weaken the community
of the faithful. So that's where parallels it is
quite possible to draw because here the threat of heresy is a
threat to the social order, justas I think as I understand it,
witchcraft worth perceived witches were perceived as a
(32:50):
threat to social order, definitely.
And the rejection of baptism. We see that with the so-called
witches rejecting their Christian baptism and being re
baptized by the devil. You have that in Salem a lot of
devil baptisms. So we do see that a lot and, and
(33:10):
at least in the 13th century, that's terrifying to the
organised church because of course the church is responsible
for the maintaining and upholding of the integrity of
the souls of the vapel. So to reject baptism is to
essentially cast yourself out and reject the possibility of
(33:32):
salvation, which the person is not supposed for.
That is ultimately the Pope. But because this so this is the
great be able to goes alongside the great age of hospital
concern for the church, which iswhen the church essentially
(33:53):
really cracks down on making sure that people are aware of
the condition of their souls. So you have this, you have great
tracks passed out and this is what heresy is, this is how
often you should be going to confession.
This is what you do to make sureyour soul is in a good
(34:16):
condition. An example in England is when
you have Magna Carta being made the cornerstone that the legal
system is now to define. Magna Carta is punishable by its
communication, which is to be cast out at the church and the
(34:36):
church, the English church, makesure that that fact is broadcast
very widely. If you defy this set of laws,
you will be excommunicated. So don't do that, because we're
responsible for your souls and we want your souls to be
spiritually well. So the rejection of baptism is a
(35:02):
massive threat to what the church was trying to do at that
time. I'm also seeing how a conspiracy
involving this dualism. They're not necessarily
worshipping the devil or following meeting with him
without, you know, devil sabats and things that witches do, but
(35:23):
believing that he's a God, doesn't that kind of elevate him
into a a different role at leastthen what the Orthodox would
have believed to? Yes, it it it ascribes the devil
more power than the church wouldwant people to perceive.
But I think the bigger issue is orthodoxies that God created the
(35:47):
world. Catharism is that the devil
created the world as the matter of two creators.
So it's taking the act of creation away from God is the
deeper heresy there I think, if that makes sense.
One of the aspects of your research.
That I've found a. Connection with is just.
(36:10):
This rhetoric used. To push the narrative.
About. The heresy we really.
See that in accusing witches I'd.
Love to hear a little. Bit about how Peter.
Used. That narrative.
To drive the crusade just. Because it's very similar to
(36:33):
driving. These hunts.
In communities once the for instance, was Salem, as it
exploded and there were more witches to seek out, there was
narratives. Used it's important to view what
Peter Vleau Desanea was writing about heresy in terms of what
his purpose in writing in the 1st place was, which was to
(36:56):
justify the Albigensi crusade. But he he he began writing a
point where papal confidence in the crusade was quite deeply
shaken actually in 1213 Pope Innocent the third disavowed the
crusade and I've argued to mixedreception.
(37:17):
The Historiopaganzis was undertaken as part of a broader
rhetorical campaign to restore papal confidence in the crusade
and thereby re endorse the crusade.
Peter betrayings heresy, as he does in an attempt to convince
the Pope, Pope Innocent the 3rd,that heresy is still a very
(37:43):
present threat in the South of France.
So the way in which he does thatis, and I hope I'm answering
your questions, Sarah, he mostlyrelies on biblical rhetoric and
he casts his depiction of heresyin biblical terms.
(38:03):
So there's a couple of examples.There's he relates heresy to the
parable of the tares, which Christ gives in Matthew, in
which you have tares growing up in the field of the good sower.
No matter how good the sower is,you have tares coming up.
And the analysis of that parableis very different to what it
(38:28):
would be now because Christ goeson to say, don't RIP the tears
up because you're going to causedamage to the good part.
Separate it when harvesting. So basically, don't punish
heresy. God will do that at judgement.
But in the 13th century, it's perceived to be like, no, we
(38:50):
need to tear up the tears. In terms of justifying continued
crusading to the Pope, It's these tears are still very
present. We need to root them up as many
other examples I could talk about.
One that I think is especially striking is Peter refers to
(39:11):
heretic. The heres takes that they're
fighting as a generation of Vipers, which has manifold
meanings. So he's he's drawing on two
references here. 1 is to Christ teaching Christ refers to the
set Pharisees as a generation ofVipers are essentially damaging
the faith the faithfuls it wouldhave been the Jewish community
(39:36):
at that point, but in the 13th century it's viewed as the
faith, the community of the faithful relationship with God
and they're coming between God and the faithful but also Isidor
of Seville who wrote this massive etymology of everything
in creation and he assigns a moral assessment of everything
in creation. But in his description of Vipers
(39:56):
he has are frankly mad the idea that Vipers the mother beheads
the father following reproduction and then the young
tear themselves out of the mother, thus killing the mother
in the act of childbirth and essentially is the idea that the
(40:18):
Viper is conceived and born in the act of murder.
And so in using this rhetoric, Peter is saying.
Look, if we allow heresy to endure in the South, we're just
going to have this cyclical chaos in which the social order
is completely torn apart and will ultimately come between the
(40:44):
faithful and salvation again. It's always all coming if
there's to view faith and religion and social order is one
in the same in this period. And essentially what Peter's
saying is heresy is this existential threat to the social
order of Christendom, which I suppose if you look at the
(41:04):
beginning of the 17th century, which is there an existential
threat to the social order of the Commonwealth?
I suppose absolutely. And there's like an
ecclesiastical threat also by both groups undermining the
(41:24):
authority of the church. The Cathars were, Albigensians,
said, having their own itinerantpreachers and maybe bishops.
Obviously a threat to the established Catholic Church and
their authority, their power, their finances in every way.
(41:46):
Yeah. And the Orthodox Church doesn't
like to be threatened. Yeah.
Yeah, we see that throughout history.
Yeah, time and again. Yeah.
And actually that's sorry, I just had a point on the list of
one of the important things thatthose advocating the crusade do
is very much tie the beliefs of the Cathars to the ancient
(42:08):
heresies of like Mason Christianity.
So Peter doesn't necessarily, but a lot of his contemporaries
describe Cathars as Manakees, and Manichaeanism was an early
Christian heresy of the 4th century, and Saint Augustine
opposed Manichaeanism and Faustus.
(42:29):
And there's this drawing of a chronology of heresy and a
chronology of faithlessness thatthose justifying the album
today, Genesee and Crusade placethemselves within.
It's like this isn't a new threat to the Church.
This is a millennial threat thatwe need to be combating time and
(42:49):
again, time and again, time and again, thereby so justifying
this repeat cycle of persecution.
It feels like, frankly, a game of whack a mole.
You just have the heresy pop up and you suppress it and it pops
up again and eventually it pops up heresy.
(43:10):
But there's also witchcraft things like that that pop up and
they need to be well, the same way yes, and I think the
Reformation probably just sets all that alight.
I think when Luther is doing allhis Lutheran things, he's
compared to the Cathars of old by those opposing him and in is
(43:34):
quite is something that I want to pursue more seriously.
But during the French Wars of Religion, in sort of the 16th,
early 17th centuries, you get this quite intense copying of
manuscripts or about from the year of the Aberjenzi Crusade,
copying and translations, I think half of our surviving
(43:58):
manuscripts of the Historia Aberjenesus, early 17th century
French translations. So there's an interest during
the French Wars of Religion where you have this religious
divide in France again, in what was going on back in the 13th
century during the Alba Jensen Crusade, which I'd like to look
more into because it's really interesting.
(44:19):
Yeah. Sounds like kind of a manual
against heresy. The way about a demonology is
manual against witchcraft. Precisely.
And actually, that's a real genre in the 12th and 13th
century. It's not called a demonology.
(44:40):
They're referred to as exemplar.And you have preachers juicing
exemplar collections, which are these little snippets, like
little anecdotes to be regurgitated in sermons.
And so essentially a preacher should have a textual arsenal of
(45:02):
arguments and preaching tools, many of which concern themselves
with heresy. So but when preaching in at
least, and oh, I've got this onefor heresy, or if someone
challenges him whilst preaching as heresy, he has the exemplar
ready to combat it, which they're fascinating documents,
(45:25):
some kind of wacky ones. But yeah, so that's again a
similarities preaching tools. Yeah, learning about this
crusade, it's been very revelatory for me to know that
there's this widespread hunt forheretics so many centuries
(45:47):
before the hunting that we usually think about on this
podcast. Were there other heresies in
addition to Catharism at this time?
Yes, quite a lot, actually. Catharism attracts the most
attention, I think mostly because of the sheer scale of
(46:09):
the reaction and suppression of Catherism.
But the 12th century especially and into the 13th century was
marred by instances of heresy. So I think if we go back to even
earlier the 12th century, in 1022 a sect of heretics are
(46:29):
discovered in Olio during the reign of Robert the Second of
France. And they are, they represent the
first burning of heretics in Christendom since the 4th or 5th
century. So that's like the
reintroduction of the threat of heresy to Christendom.
But then through the 12th century you have the Cathars, of
(46:52):
course, you have the Bogomil heresy, which appears to have
come from Bulgaria but moved westward.
And as there's a long standing debate, which I try not to get
involved with, about whether or not Bogomilism is the sort of
pair and heresy. Catharism, I'm inclined to think
(47:14):
it's not, but some people think that it is.
The other sort of large movementof heresy, contemporary
Catharism, is Voldenzianism, which has some of the same
beliefs as Catharism, but the the beliefs are less
controversial. I think Peach Vlayvodosene
(47:36):
characterises them. He talks to the Bolden.
Then they. They were evil men, but very
much less perverted than other heretics.
And they agreed with all such Christianity in many matters,
and differed in some. Their error arose in four major
points. They wore sandals in imitation
of the Apostles. Witches.
(47:58):
Awful. They also condemned the swearing
of oaths and their major heresy was that it was OK for anyone to
administer communion even thoughthey hadn't received holy
orders, which wasn't very good, but not nearly as bad as the
Cathars. I think wearing saddles and
giving a communion was more acceptable than believing the
(48:20):
devil created the world. Mary Bingham is back with
another enlightening minute withMary.
The early sources regarding heresy were written by dissonant
voices or lost voices, and this reflected a critique of modern
society. According to historian Dr.
(48:41):
Claire Taylor, these dissenting beliefs created a Gray area in
defining heresy by challenging what would have been deemed by
some as necessary change in the church versus what was actually
defined as heretical in medievaltimes.
Historians who specialize in heresy, such as Louis Pulford
(49:04):
and Claire Taylor, can look at early text and separate what was
actually heretical versus those views which challenge what
simply threatens the church. Please listen to Doctor Claire
Taylor on YouTube. The link to her interviews are
in the show notes. Thank you, Mary.
(49:25):
And now Sarah has End witch hunts news.
Haiti holds a profound place in the Americas after becoming the
second independent nation in thehemisphere in 18 O Four and the
first independent Caribbean state.
The United States would not recognize this achievement until
1862, when it finally established diplomatic relations
(49:46):
by appointing Benjamin F Whittenas its first commissioner and
consul general to Haiti, markingEU s s formal acknowledgement of
Haiti's sovereignty. Named for its mountainous
terrain, Haiti's independence from France marked a
revolutionary moment in world history.
Media reports of witchcraft accusations and violent attacks
(50:06):
against elderly Haitians have circulated around the globe,
raising many questions and assumptions.
Let's learn what we can togetherabout Haiti's rich culture and
the organizations working to protect human rights there.
But first, please join me in 10.Seconds of silence to
acknowledge. The innocent men and women who
recently lost their lives in theelder witchcraft allegations
(50:29):
attack. To read more.
Specifics from locals about the innocent lives lost.
Please check the news link in our show notes.
Now let's learn about a Haitian organization striving to
(50:49):
promote, protect and defend the fundamental human rights of all
Haitians. Quote with many hands.
The load is not heavy. That's a Haitian proverb and is
the header on the donation page for Haiti's National Human
Rights Defense Network. In the organization's website
About section, it states that the roots of democracy are
(51:09):
desperately trying to take hold in Haiti.
Here is a foundational definition of democracy.
Democracy is a system of government in which power lies
with the people who either exercise it directly or through
freely elected representatives. Let's examine how Haiti's
National Human Rights Defense Network describes their crucial
work on their website. According to the National Human
(51:31):
Rights Defense Network's websitestatement, democracy cannot.
Happen with a flawed. Foundation in Haiti the
fundamental principles of justice are not applied to those
with power and influence, money and eminence, as different
socioeconomic status means different status and treatment
before the law. The National Human Rights
Defense Network operates throughtwo essential groups, the
(51:52):
Port-au-Prince Central staff andthe local departmental network
staff and volunteers. The Central Office comprises 12
working group commissions focused on critical areas like
human rights education, police monitoring, prison oversight,
and judicial system monitoring. Their local departmental
networks consist of trained human rights defenders committed
to fostering human rights in their communities to persevere.
(52:15):
The National Human Rights Network depends on the
commitment and solidarity of concerned individuals and
organizations, both in Haiti andabroad, to support their fight
against injustice and impunity. They call on all individuals,
organizations, and governments to demonstrate their commitment
to these precious principles by seeking change.
Where these principles are ignored, please reach out to
(52:37):
them. If your agency has support to
offer at web.rnddh.org, you can also find this link in the
episode show description as Executive Director of End Witch
Hunts. I want to.
Emphasize our dedication to United Nations Resolution 47
Eight the elimination of harmfulpractices related to accusations
(52:58):
of witchcraft and ritual attacks, passed by the UN Human
Rights Council in June 2021 thisresolution specifically
addresses. The harmful practices.
We're seeing today we also want to express our dedication to
standing with the people of Haiti who helped define freedom
in the Americas. Together with the international
network of advocates, we stand committed to implementing this
(53:20):
resolution and ending persecution based on witchcraft
accusations throughout the Americas and worldwide.
Thank you, Sarah. You're welcome.
And thank you for tuning into your witch hunt.
Join us every week. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.