March 15, 2025 • 29 mins
Join us each day March 15-21 as we participate in Podcasthon 2025, where more than 1,500 podcasters unite to amplify causes close to their hearts. We're proud to participate with our nonprofit End Witch Hunts, which is working to educate about persecution of alleged witches worldwide. When you think of the Salem Witch Trials, it might seem like ancient history—an open-and-shut case from a bygone era. But as Sarah reveals, "The witch hunting story is bigger than just Salem. Pull back each layer and you find that witch hunts aren't a tall tale or an opened and shut case." One minute you think you know the truth. The next, you realize you don't know the half of it.
Throughout this special week-long series, we'll explore how witch hunts transcend ancient historic documents and continue happening today. In this installment We examine literal witch hunts—where fear of witchcraft drives accusations of supernatural harm—featuring insights from Economist Boris Gershman on global witchcraft beliefs and the path toward ending these dangerous persecutions. Tune in daily as we uncover this complex story layer by layer. Learn more at podcasthon.org and discover how you can help at www.endwitchhunts.org.
Donate to Witch Hunt Podcast Conference Fund
Boris Gershman Witch Hunt Podcast Episode
Witchcraft Beliefs Around the World: An Exploratory Analysis
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Hi, I'm Josh Hutchinson and she's Sarah Jack.
Welcome to Witch Hunt Podcast. Thanks for introducing us.
Are you excited for a podcast on?
Could you remind me what that isagain?
Podcast On is podcasters unitingfor good and impact this week,
March 15th through the 21st. Every podcast can use their
(00:31):
platform to talk about a charitythat's important to them to give
them a wider audience listener. If you want to learn more about
podcasts than go to podcaststhan.org and you'll see
our nonprofit and witch hunts featured with the other
charities. Oh, that's great.
Does that mean we're doing an episode every day this week?
(00:53):
Yes, we are because we have a whole story to tell about witch
hunting, but most podcasts are going to participate with one
episode during the 15th through the 21st.
Oh, I see. You know, when you first
consider the infamous Salem witch trials, it may seem like a
tall tale or an open and shut case.
(01:14):
Witch hunting is a story that isbigger than just Salem, and with
our podcast, we pull back each layer of that story to show that
witch hunts aren't a tall tale and they are not an open and
shut case. Right one minute you think you
know the truth. But then the next minute you
(01:35):
realize you don't know the half of it.
Life isn't black and white, and witch hunts are proof of that
because they're still happening today.
That's right. So March 15th through the 21st,
we're telling that whole story and talking about ending witch
hunts. Literal witch hunts where the
(01:56):
fear of witchcraft tries someoneto accuse another person of
causing harm through witchcraft.In this first episode, I'd like
to talk about our nonprofit and witch hunts and how it started.
But first, I have a question foryou, Josh.
Oh great, what is it? Do you remember that article
that I brought to your attentionjust after we started the
podcast? The one about witchcraft belief
(02:18):
around the world. Oh, absolutely.
That was the one by economist Boris Gershman.
He came on our show about two years ago, and that was a really
great episode where he talked about his research.
He talked about the giant data set that he used, which he
pulled from a series of surveys by the Pew Research Center.
(02:39):
It's so informative to look at the stats that he has brought
together. Yeah, here are some of the
stats. Boris analyzed data on 95
countries and he found that approximately 40% of people
globally believe in harmful witchcraft, which is defined as
the ability to cast harmful curses or spells or use the evil
eye. And the prevalence ranges from
(03:02):
9% in Sweden to 90% in countrieslike Tunisia.
And what might surprise some, but shouldn't, is 16% of
Americans, which is nearly one in six, believe in this harmful
witchcraft. We say 40% of people believe in
(03:24):
witchcraft. That's 40% of people in the
world believing in curses, the evil eye, or the ability for
spells to cause actual harm. It's one thing believing in it
as a possibility, but knowing inone's mind that it's real and
feeling threatened by it is another thing entirely.
(03:46):
Witch hunts exist because, unfortunately, acting on these
beliefs often are crossing a line.
In that line, crossing harms innocent people.
That's right. I remember this UN report came
out in 2023 about the harmful practices being done against
(04:10):
people accused of witchcraft, and it said that the victims are
often people in vulnerable situations, including women,
children, persons with disabilities, older persons,
persons with albinism and persons with dementia.
And our story that we're sharingduring the podcast on 2025 is
(04:30):
going to talk about who those victims are across several
countries and what's happening to them.
Yeah, witchcraft accusation can come from anybody in any
community, anybody who has the fear of being bewitched.
Accusations, as they did in historic witch trials.
These days, accusations follow some misfortune, and they often
(04:54):
come from one's own family members or close neighbors.
Many times accusers hold this belief that life is a 0 sum game
and that if one person is getting ahead, then another
person has to fall behind. They don't want to be that
person who's falling behind. Can you give us an example of
(05:17):
that, Josh? Sure.
It reminds me of the case of Catherine Harrison from
Connecticut. She prospered and her neighbors
believed that she caused their losses, such as livestock deaths
and crop failures, that she onlysucceeded because they did not.
They were also jealous of her relationships with bees and
(05:40):
cows, how easily she could call them.
Hocking them, Hocking them, comeHocking them and they would come
running the cows and the bees would just automatically follow
her when she approached them. It was amazing.
She was so, so good at her job that they accused her of
(06:03):
witchcraft. And her neighbors were so afraid
of her, in fact, that over 80 ofthem signed a petition to return
her to jail after she was initially released following
questioning. You know, I first found out
about cast on and LinkedIn, and I was just thinking about what a
great post she could have postedabout her bees or her cows.
(06:28):
And then, you know, you're not going to have 80 people on
LinkedIn complaining they're going to share that post.
But it's very different when you're looking at somebody's
success as attributing to your downfall.
Yeah. I'm thinking about what kind of
TikTok video she could have madeabout Hocking them, Hocking
(06:49):
them, come Hocking them, and allthe cows come running.
To hear more stories like Catherine's, you can check out
our other podcast series. We have a One O 1 Series
covering Connecticut with trial history, Massachusetts and the
Salem Witch Trials. Yeah, absolutely.
Check out all those series. You know, when fearful people
(07:11):
come together like that, emotions take control of the
room and rationality can easily go out the window.
And then these accusations are made of people doing impossible
things, frankly. Yeah, and once that accusation
is made, I mean, it's out there,it can not.
(07:31):
It's already causing harm. The moment the accusation is
naming a person, that person is no longer seen as human, but as
a source of evil. Yeah, once they're dehumanized
that way, accusers are willing to commit horrific acts of
violence, including murder, justto get that evil force out of
their community. The victims are not witches,
(07:56):
they are human beings. We also need to realize that the
accusers are not monsters, they are humans enacting human
behaviors. What blew me away about our
episode with Boris was how he shared ways to actually
eliminate witchcraft accusations.
(08:17):
Yeah, he gave us a list of necessary changes for any witch
hunts. And I think that's what's
amazing about human rights, is there are necessary changes.
And isn't it amazing that we have experts like Boris and so
(08:38):
many more that can offer change ideas?
And let's end witch hunts with some of these changes.
Right. A lot of these changes that he
talks about go back to this central point that when people's
needs are met, they're less likely to want to scapegoat
(09:00):
somebody as a source of their problems because they have fewer
problems. And when if there's this social
safety net or something to catchyou when you fall, when
misfortune befalls you, that really keeps you from making
these accusations against people?
He gave some great effective approaches, including building
(09:24):
stronger formal institutions like just courts, just police,
property rights. Yeah.
He also talked about the need toreduce poverty and vulnerability
through the social safety Nets that I mentioned.
They're so important to keep people's needs met.
So they aren't looking for outlets of, you know, my needs
(09:48):
aren't being met. This person's obviously the one
doing it. I need to take care of them and
then my needs will be met. It's comes as a surprise to some
people that these programs to diminish poverty are things that
are going to end violence against women due to witchcraft
(10:09):
accusations. Programs that help meet basic
needs, whether they're developed, you know, from within
the community, local outreach and organizations meeting the
needs of their own community, orif neighboring communities are
helping to support a community that needs support from the
(10:30):
outside. Those programs significantly
reduce violence against women and children, and specifically
witchcraft accusation related violence.
When you lift people up they don't have to lash out anymore.
So doing things like addressing the root causes of witchcraft
(10:51):
fears rather than then the beliefs themselves.
And understanding all of that and implementing the change does
take time, but we have to get started now.
We need to continue to support programs that are supporting
people. Yeah, these community building
strategies are essential for a holistic framework to combat
(11:15):
witch hunting. Laws against witchcraft
accusations alone will not get the job done.
You have to support the the people because witchcraft,
accusations and poverty are so intertwined.
You've got to break that cycle. It's amazing that the beginning
(11:36):
of this education for me came out of an article, an article
that may many of our listeners might have actually looked at.
It was during Thanksgiving breakof 2022 and you know, when you
see a Pew Research survey come out and it's talking about the
evil eye, I think a lot of people probably looked at that.
(11:57):
In essence, Bortz, you know, took some of that information
and with his expertise and research, she provided this
comprehensive data-driven analysis of the prevalence,
distribution and correlates of witchcraft elites right now,
highlighting the complex social functions and the significant
(12:18):
costs. He really emphasized the
importance of institutional development and social safety
Nets as key factors in addressing the harmful
consequences of these beliefs. He underscored the need for a
nuanced and culturally sensitiveapproach to tackling this
complex issue. This encounter with Boris's
(12:40):
research came about the time we decided to create a nonprofit.
After speaking with him, we saw how we could use our podcast to
advocate and promote solutions for the witchcraft accusation
crisis. The timing was quite interesting
because when we started the podcast, we were really focused
(13:02):
on Connecticut witch trials, NewEngland witch trials, other
historic witch trials. But about a year before we
started the podcast, in 2021, the United Nations Human Rights
Council issued a resolution #47-8 that recognizes the issue
(13:26):
of the witchcraft accusation violence and urges nations to
make all necessary efforts to eliminate the witch hunt
violence. That next year, in 2022, three
organizations joined this advocacy for ending witch hunts,
Ours and witch Hunts, but also the International Network
(13:48):
Against Witchcraft Accusations and Ritual Attacks and the
International Alliance to End Witch Hunts.
In Witch Hunts is our organization we started December
2022, that we are advocating forthe elimination of witch hunts
and we're raising awareness of this crisis because, you know,
(14:12):
especially in the beginning whenwe started, when we would talk
to people, nobody understood what was going on.
Nobody knew about witch hunt still happening in the world.
We think here in the West they're metaphorical, always
tied to politics somehow, but they're not.
It's person against person usingeach other of witchcraft.
(14:37):
And sometimes it's because we have this deeply rooted
assumption that which trials were the only witch hunts, and
those were centuries ago. We don't even recognize the type
of accusations that are happening right before our eyes.
And one of those that does happen in the US is demonic
(15:00):
possession, accusations that turn into violent exorcisms
resulting in the death of a child or and elderly fathers.
Those are crimes that have been committed recently in the United
States. Yes.
And you mentioned the International Network and the
(15:21):
International Alliance, and they're both organizations
which, as their names imply, bring together people from a lot
of different countries, different advocates, academics,
people who are involved in localadvocacy organizations, get
together to exchange notes, helpeach other out.
(15:42):
Will seminars and conferences that really get the word out
that this is happening and try to enact positive change through
advocacy with governments and international bodies like the
United Nations? Yeah.
And as you can imagine, there's a lot of legal aspects to this.
(16:03):
So there's legal experts who areworking on laws and then
sometimes in the court, just like with other human rights
cases, working to fight for the rights of the vulnerable in
witchcraft, accusation, violencesituations.
So we talked about all these things that are podcast with
(16:24):
experts. But Josh, should we tell them
about our projects, our nonprofit?
Projects, Absolutely. Let's tell them what in witch
hunts does. So our first project was our
Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project and an
exoneration for those who were accused of witchcraft in 17th
(16:48):
century colonial Connecticut. The first part of that project
has been a success. That first year that we were
working with other volunteers onthe exoneration of those
innocent victims of the Connecticut witch trials, they
did receive a bill that absolvedthem of the crime of witchcraft.
(17:13):
Now that project is focused on creating a monument for them.
Connecticut does not have a monument dedicated to the group
of individuals that were accusedof witchcraft there.
After the Connecticut witch trial exoneration bill was
passed, we started to look at Massachusetts because we're we
(17:37):
know that the Salem convicted have been clear.
They've been exonerated. However, those accused in Boston
and convicted in Boston, eight people convicted there,
including five women who were hanged, they've never received
(17:57):
any kind of recognition like that.
No exoneration, no name clearing, no acknowledgement.
So we just want them to be recognized.
We want to basically have everybody who was accused of
witchcraft in Massachusetts, they're what they went through.
We want that to be acknowledged and recognized that this was an
(18:19):
error that happened and these people never should have been
prosecuted. And that legislation was
proposed in January of this year.
It's pending a committee review before it goes to the House
floor. And I hope it makes sense to
you, the listeners, why we woulddo this because those
(18:42):
experiences that Josh was just referring to are the same
experiences that men, women and children are having happened to
them in their communities. Now, some places that could
still be in court. There are some countries where
that is the case, but a lot of these are outside the court.
(19:02):
But it's still this life disrupting accusation that is a
devastation to families. And so when we go back and we
recognize and have authority saythese women were innocent, these
men who were hate for witchcraftwere innocent, it is taking a
(19:25):
stand that we should not be persecuting people for something
that's not happening, something that's not provable.
Do you have anything to add to that, Josh?
Yeah, I really liked the way yousaid that.
As an example, there's legislation currently under
review in the state of Maryland to exonerate people accused and
(19:50):
some convicted of witchcraft in the 17th century, again in
colonial times in Maryland. And that went before a committee
for review this week. They held a hearing on Monday
and you and I testified there and.
(20:10):
We did. I focused my testimony on the
modern situation, letting peopleknow that this exoneration
legislation, like you said, Sarah, is so relevant today.
It's not just, you know, we wantto get justice for the people
who deserve justice, which are the victims of the historic
(20:31):
witch trials, but we also want to see justice for the victims
of modern witch hunts. And we've been told by advocates
in different countries, such as Doctor Leo Edway from the Abbey
Sea for alleged witches in Nigeria, that what we do here in
America, recognizing these injustices, saying that witch
(20:55):
hunts are wrong, really resoundsand echoes across the world.
People hear that message and imbibe it and say, well, they're
saying that what we're doing is wrong or what I'm thinking of
doing is wrong. And maybe it gives people some
pause. Yeah, exactly, Josh.
(21:17):
So our other project is podcasting.
We have a lot of fun with it. We do talk a lot on very serious
matters, but it's great because we have had over 100 experts,
academics, lawyers, politicians,descendants, even someone who
(21:42):
experienced witchcraft accusation against their mother.
So they're on our show talking about how what their work or
their experience is and how it intersects with witchcraft
accusations and ending witch hunts.
We hope you check out those other episodes The project.
(22:05):
That's really at the core of what we're about in raising
awareness and doing advocacy forthe elimination of these harmful
practices we call World Without Witch Hunts.
That's our platform for amplifying messages from around
the world about what's going on and getting people to know the
(22:27):
reality of the situation. So participating in Podcast On
really falls under a couple of our projects, but because of our
World Without Witch Hunt's effort, when we saw Podcast On
happening, we knew we wanted to be a part of it to get our
message out further. That's really what we're doing
(22:48):
in these six episodes for podcasts on We're going around
the world to talk about different continents and the
situations there. Yeah.
Briefly we mentioned the deaths occurring with exorcisms that
become violent here in the US and that falls under a project
(23:11):
called End Spiritual and Ritual Abuse.
And currently with that project,we're just kind of getting
familiar with what is happening in the country right now, what
has happened in the past decade.How does our legal system look
at it? How does the court look at it
when it's processing these trials and looking at the
(23:31):
charged individuals versus what's happened to a victim?
And we're doing that through media reporting and talking to
people. And if you have any insight on
that or leads from your organization or any type of
advocacy or legal work that you do, we would love for you to
(23:54):
reach out to us. This is an area that other parts
of the world kind of have a leadon us with.
There's been great data collected in some other
countries around spiritual and ritual abuse and we'd really
like to be able to show what's happening in the US around Sarah
spiritual and ritual abuse. Absolutely, and for updates on
(24:17):
all of our projects and more, subscribe to our newsletter.
You'll get exclusive content about witch hunt podcasts and
about historic witch trials, as well as updates on the modern
accusations. That comes out weekly.
It's cool because we put photos in there from our interviews or
(24:40):
if we've been out giving a presentation or if we've had an
event, they'll be updates. Another thing that we do, as in
witch hunts, is attend importantconferences.
Last year we went to two important conferences.
In September we went to the Magic and Witchcraft Conference
in York and we spoke about the modern witch hunt crisis there.
(25:05):
And then we went to a conference, the International
Conference on Witchcraft and Human Rights, which was totally,
entirely dedicated to the modernwitch hunting situation and
brought in advocates and leadersfrom around the world.
And it was those two experienceswere so amazing.
(25:25):
Really looking forward to getting back to some conferences
this year, including Magic and Witchcraft Conference 2025.
I'm so excited. It's in June, it's in York,
England, and the subject is whatis a witch?
How more exciting could you get of a topic?
Then it's like the central question of witch hunting or one
(25:50):
of the central questions to answer what even is a witch?
What do people believe witches can do and who they are?
So we've submitted to talk thereabout what is a witch in the
context of today's witch hunts, something that we've done
several episodes about. And we have, you know, a good
(26:11):
base of research to do that talk.
And we hope that you'll support our GoFundMe so we can go there
to spread awareness of the modern crisis of witchcraft
accusations and also to learn many more facts about what is a
witch from the historical witch trials, things that we can use
(26:32):
on this podcast. We'll be meeting guests that
will be on the podcast in the future, I'm sure, and just as we
did with our conferences last year, really be rounding out our
coming calendar for the second-half of the year with
people that we meet in June. Awesome.
(26:52):
Thanks for talking about our Go Fund Me.
We have AQR code that we'll put up here on the video and a link
in the description of this episode.
And thank you for helping us getthere this year too.
I want to talk about that conference that the other
conference that you brought up, Josh, the one for September, the
International Conference on Albinism at Lancaster
(27:15):
University. Yeah, Lancaster University is
hosting this conference. It's commemorating the 10 year
anniversary of the UN Human Rights Council's mandate on the
rights of persons with albinism,and it'll be going September
16th to 18th this year. We have they're addressing some
(27:39):
key challenges that persons withalbatism face in their life,
including skin cancer from the climate change threats.
They have educational, employment and community
inclusion barriers, and they face discrimination fueled by
supernatural beliefs and misinformation.
(28:00):
And they experience and die fromritual attacks and violence.
And we're actually going to tellmore of that story on tomorrow's
episode. Yes, we are.
And the conference will be emphasizing the needs for
enhanced data collection, stronger government protections,
(28:20):
international cooperation, grassroots collaborations and
cross movement partnerships. These conferences bring together
diverse participants. There are albinism advocates and
human rights defenders, medical researchers on genetics,
ophthalmology, dermatology, oncology, arts, humanities and
(28:42):
social science scholars, and interdisciplinary experts.
You can help in witch hunts by volunteering or donating to our
projects. Tomorrow our episode discusses
contemporary witch hunts across African countries based on the
conversations that we've had in our previous episodes.
(29:04):
So it's current information and experiences and you don't want
to miss that. This is a very under addressed
issue affecting communities throughout the continent.
And you want to be sure to tune in because you do not want to
miss the update we received fromDoctor Leo Egwe in Nigeria on
(29:28):
what advocacy for alleged witches is doing.
There's very powerful stories inthere, so do not miss it.
Thank you so much for joining usfor podcast on 2025.
Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
Hi, I'm Josh Hutchinson and she's Sarah Jack.
Welcome to Witch Hunt Podcast. Thanks for introducing us.
Are you excited for a podcast on?
Could you remind me what that isagain?
Podcast On is podcasters unitingfor good and impact this week,
March 15th through the 21st. Every podcast can use their
(00:31):
platform to talk about a charitythat's important to them to give
them a wider audience listener. If you want to learn more about
podcasts than go to podcaststhan.org and you'll see
our nonprofit and witch hunts featured with the other
charities. Oh, that's great.
Does that mean we're doing an episode every day this week?
(00:53):
Yes, we are because we have a whole story to tell about witch
hunting, but most podcasts are going to participate with one
episode during the 15th through the 21st.
Oh, I see. You know, when you first
consider the infamous Salem witch trials, it may seem like a
tall tale or an open and shut case.
(01:14):
Witch hunting is a story that isbigger than just Salem, and with
our podcast, we pull back each layer of that story to show that
witch hunts aren't a tall tale and they are not an open and
shut case. Right one minute you think you
know the truth. But then the next minute you
(01:35):
realize you don't know the half of it.
Life isn't black and white, and witch hunts are proof of that
because they're still happening today.
That's right. So March 15th through the 21st,
we're telling that whole story and talking about ending witch
hunts. Literal witch hunts where the
(01:56):
fear of witchcraft tries someoneto accuse another person of
causing harm through witchcraft.In this first episode, I'd like
to talk about our nonprofit and witch hunts and how it started.
But first, I have a question foryou, Josh.
Oh great, what is it? Do you remember that article
that I brought to your attentionjust after we started the
podcast? The one about witchcraft belief
(02:18):
around the world. Oh, absolutely.
That was the one by economist Boris Gershman.
He came on our show about two years ago, and that was a really
great episode where he talked about his research.
He talked about the giant data set that he used, which he
pulled from a series of surveys by the Pew Research Center.
(02:39):
It's so informative to look at the stats that he has brought
together. Yeah, here are some of the
stats. Boris analyzed data on 95
countries and he found that approximately 40% of people
globally believe in harmful witchcraft, which is defined as
the ability to cast harmful curses or spells or use the evil
eye. And the prevalence ranges from
(03:02):
9% in Sweden to 90% in countrieslike Tunisia.
And what might surprise some, but shouldn't, is 16% of
Americans, which is nearly one in six, believe in this harmful
witchcraft. We say 40% of people believe in
(03:24):
witchcraft. That's 40% of people in the
world believing in curses, the evil eye, or the ability for
spells to cause actual harm. It's one thing believing in it
as a possibility, but knowing inone's mind that it's real and
feeling threatened by it is another thing entirely.
(03:46):
Witch hunts exist because, unfortunately, acting on these
beliefs often are crossing a line.
In that line, crossing harms innocent people.
That's right. I remember this UN report came
out in 2023 about the harmful practices being done against
(04:10):
people accused of witchcraft, and it said that the victims are
often people in vulnerable situations, including women,
children, persons with disabilities, older persons,
persons with albinism and persons with dementia.
And our story that we're sharingduring the podcast on 2025 is
(04:30):
going to talk about who those victims are across several
countries and what's happening to them.
Yeah, witchcraft accusation can come from anybody in any
community, anybody who has the fear of being bewitched.
Accusations, as they did in historic witch trials.
These days, accusations follow some misfortune, and they often
(04:54):
come from one's own family members or close neighbors.
Many times accusers hold this belief that life is a 0 sum game
and that if one person is getting ahead, then another
person has to fall behind. They don't want to be that
person who's falling behind. Can you give us an example of
(05:17):
that, Josh? Sure.
It reminds me of the case of Catherine Harrison from
Connecticut. She prospered and her neighbors
believed that she caused their losses, such as livestock deaths
and crop failures, that she onlysucceeded because they did not.
They were also jealous of her relationships with bees and
(05:40):
cows, how easily she could call them.
Hocking them, Hocking them, comeHocking them and they would come
running the cows and the bees would just automatically follow
her when she approached them. It was amazing.
She was so, so good at her job that they accused her of
(06:03):
witchcraft. And her neighbors were so afraid
of her, in fact, that over 80 ofthem signed a petition to return
her to jail after she was initially released following
questioning. You know, I first found out
about cast on and LinkedIn, and I was just thinking about what a
great post she could have postedabout her bees or her cows.
(06:28):
And then, you know, you're not going to have 80 people on
LinkedIn complaining they're going to share that post.
But it's very different when you're looking at somebody's
success as attributing to your downfall.
Yeah. I'm thinking about what kind of
TikTok video she could have madeabout Hocking them, Hocking
(06:49):
them, come Hocking them, and allthe cows come running.
To hear more stories like Catherine's, you can check out
our other podcast series. We have a One O 1 Series
covering Connecticut with trial history, Massachusetts and the
Salem Witch Trials. Yeah, absolutely.
Check out all those series. You know, when fearful people
(07:11):
come together like that, emotions take control of the
room and rationality can easily go out the window.
And then these accusations are made of people doing impossible
things, frankly. Yeah, and once that accusation
is made, I mean, it's out there,it can not.
(07:31):
It's already causing harm. The moment the accusation is
naming a person, that person is no longer seen as human, but as
a source of evil. Yeah, once they're dehumanized
that way, accusers are willing to commit horrific acts of
violence, including murder, justto get that evil force out of
their community. The victims are not witches,
(07:56):
they are human beings. We also need to realize that the
accusers are not monsters, they are humans enacting human
behaviors. What blew me away about our
episode with Boris was how he shared ways to actually
eliminate witchcraft accusations.
(08:17):
Yeah, he gave us a list of necessary changes for any witch
hunts. And I think that's what's
amazing about human rights, is there are necessary changes.
And isn't it amazing that we have experts like Boris and so
(08:38):
many more that can offer change ideas?
And let's end witch hunts with some of these changes.
Right. A lot of these changes that he
talks about go back to this central point that when people's
needs are met, they're less likely to want to scapegoat
(09:00):
somebody as a source of their problems because they have fewer
problems. And when if there's this social
safety net or something to catchyou when you fall, when
misfortune befalls you, that really keeps you from making
these accusations against people?
He gave some great effective approaches, including building
(09:24):
stronger formal institutions like just courts, just police,
property rights. Yeah.
He also talked about the need toreduce poverty and vulnerability
through the social safety Nets that I mentioned.
They're so important to keep people's needs met.
So they aren't looking for outlets of, you know, my needs
(09:48):
aren't being met. This person's obviously the one
doing it. I need to take care of them and
then my needs will be met. It's comes as a surprise to some
people that these programs to diminish poverty are things that
are going to end violence against women due to witchcraft
(10:09):
accusations. Programs that help meet basic
needs, whether they're developed, you know, from within
the community, local outreach and organizations meeting the
needs of their own community, orif neighboring communities are
helping to support a community that needs support from the
(10:30):
outside. Those programs significantly
reduce violence against women and children, and specifically
witchcraft accusation related violence.
When you lift people up they don't have to lash out anymore.
So doing things like addressing the root causes of witchcraft
(10:51):
fears rather than then the beliefs themselves.
And understanding all of that and implementing the change does
take time, but we have to get started now.
We need to continue to support programs that are supporting
people. Yeah, these community building
strategies are essential for a holistic framework to combat
(11:15):
witch hunting. Laws against witchcraft
accusations alone will not get the job done.
You have to support the the people because witchcraft,
accusations and poverty are so intertwined.
You've got to break that cycle. It's amazing that the beginning
(11:36):
of this education for me came out of an article, an article
that may many of our listeners might have actually looked at.
It was during Thanksgiving breakof 2022 and you know, when you
see a Pew Research survey come out and it's talking about the
evil eye, I think a lot of people probably looked at that.
(11:57):
In essence, Bortz, you know, took some of that information
and with his expertise and research, she provided this
comprehensive data-driven analysis of the prevalence,
distribution and correlates of witchcraft elites right now,
highlighting the complex social functions and the significant
(12:18):
costs. He really emphasized the
importance of institutional development and social safety
Nets as key factors in addressing the harmful
consequences of these beliefs. He underscored the need for a
nuanced and culturally sensitiveapproach to tackling this
complex issue. This encounter with Boris's
(12:40):
research came about the time we decided to create a nonprofit.
After speaking with him, we saw how we could use our podcast to
advocate and promote solutions for the witchcraft accusation
crisis. The timing was quite interesting
because when we started the podcast, we were really focused
(13:02):
on Connecticut witch trials, NewEngland witch trials, other
historic witch trials. But about a year before we
started the podcast, in 2021, the United Nations Human Rights
Council issued a resolution #47-8 that recognizes the issue
(13:26):
of the witchcraft accusation violence and urges nations to
make all necessary efforts to eliminate the witch hunt
violence. That next year, in 2022, three
organizations joined this advocacy for ending witch hunts,
Ours and witch Hunts, but also the International Network
(13:48):
Against Witchcraft Accusations and Ritual Attacks and the
International Alliance to End Witch Hunts.
In Witch Hunts is our organization we started December
2022, that we are advocating forthe elimination of witch hunts
and we're raising awareness of this crisis because, you know,
(14:12):
especially in the beginning whenwe started, when we would talk
to people, nobody understood what was going on.
Nobody knew about witch hunt still happening in the world.
We think here in the West they're metaphorical, always
tied to politics somehow, but they're not.
It's person against person usingeach other of witchcraft.
(14:37):
And sometimes it's because we have this deeply rooted
assumption that which trials were the only witch hunts, and
those were centuries ago. We don't even recognize the type
of accusations that are happening right before our eyes.
And one of those that does happen in the US is demonic
(15:00):
possession, accusations that turn into violent exorcisms
resulting in the death of a child or and elderly fathers.
Those are crimes that have been committed recently in the United
States. Yes.
And you mentioned the International Network and the
(15:21):
International Alliance, and they're both organizations
which, as their names imply, bring together people from a lot
of different countries, different advocates, academics,
people who are involved in localadvocacy organizations, get
together to exchange notes, helpeach other out.
(15:42):
Will seminars and conferences that really get the word out
that this is happening and try to enact positive change through
advocacy with governments and international bodies like the
United Nations? Yeah.
And as you can imagine, there's a lot of legal aspects to this.
(16:03):
So there's legal experts who areworking on laws and then
sometimes in the court, just like with other human rights
cases, working to fight for the rights of the vulnerable in
witchcraft, accusation, violencesituations.
So we talked about all these things that are podcast with
(16:24):
experts. But Josh, should we tell them
about our projects, our nonprofit?
Projects, Absolutely. Let's tell them what in witch
hunts does. So our first project was our
Connecticut Witch Trial Exoneration Project and an
exoneration for those who were accused of witchcraft in 17th
(16:48):
century colonial Connecticut. The first part of that project
has been a success. That first year that we were
working with other volunteers onthe exoneration of those
innocent victims of the Connecticut witch trials, they
did receive a bill that absolvedthem of the crime of witchcraft.
(17:13):
Now that project is focused on creating a monument for them.
Connecticut does not have a monument dedicated to the group
of individuals that were accusedof witchcraft there.
After the Connecticut witch trial exoneration bill was
passed, we started to look at Massachusetts because we're we
(17:37):
know that the Salem convicted have been clear.
They've been exonerated. However, those accused in Boston
and convicted in Boston, eight people convicted there,
including five women who were hanged, they've never received
(17:57):
any kind of recognition like that.
No exoneration, no name clearing, no acknowledgement.
So we just want them to be recognized.
We want to basically have everybody who was accused of
witchcraft in Massachusetts, they're what they went through.
We want that to be acknowledged and recognized that this was an
(18:19):
error that happened and these people never should have been
prosecuted. And that legislation was
proposed in January of this year.
It's pending a committee review before it goes to the House
floor. And I hope it makes sense to
you, the listeners, why we woulddo this because those
(18:42):
experiences that Josh was just referring to are the same
experiences that men, women and children are having happened to
them in their communities. Now, some places that could
still be in court. There are some countries where
that is the case, but a lot of these are outside the court.
(19:02):
But it's still this life disrupting accusation that is a
devastation to families. And so when we go back and we
recognize and have authority saythese women were innocent, these
men who were hate for witchcraftwere innocent, it is taking a
(19:25):
stand that we should not be persecuting people for something
that's not happening, something that's not provable.
Do you have anything to add to that, Josh?
Yeah, I really liked the way yousaid that.
As an example, there's legislation currently under
review in the state of Maryland to exonerate people accused and
(19:50):
some convicted of witchcraft in the 17th century, again in
colonial times in Maryland. And that went before a committee
for review this week. They held a hearing on Monday
and you and I testified there and.
(20:10):
We did. I focused my testimony on the
modern situation, letting peopleknow that this exoneration
legislation, like you said, Sarah, is so relevant today.
It's not just, you know, we wantto get justice for the people
who deserve justice, which are the victims of the historic
(20:31):
witch trials, but we also want to see justice for the victims
of modern witch hunts. And we've been told by advocates
in different countries, such as Doctor Leo Edway from the Abbey
Sea for alleged witches in Nigeria, that what we do here in
America, recognizing these injustices, saying that witch
(20:55):
hunts are wrong, really resoundsand echoes across the world.
People hear that message and imbibe it and say, well, they're
saying that what we're doing is wrong or what I'm thinking of
doing is wrong. And maybe it gives people some
pause. Yeah, exactly, Josh.
(21:17):
So our other project is podcasting.
We have a lot of fun with it. We do talk a lot on very serious
matters, but it's great because we have had over 100 experts,
academics, lawyers, politicians,descendants, even someone who
(21:42):
experienced witchcraft accusation against their mother.
So they're on our show talking about how what their work or
their experience is and how it intersects with witchcraft
accusations and ending witch hunts.
We hope you check out those other episodes The project.
(22:05):
That's really at the core of what we're about in raising
awareness and doing advocacy forthe elimination of these harmful
practices we call World Without Witch Hunts.
That's our platform for amplifying messages from around
the world about what's going on and getting people to know the
(22:27):
reality of the situation. So participating in Podcast On
really falls under a couple of our projects, but because of our
World Without Witch Hunt's effort, when we saw Podcast On
happening, we knew we wanted to be a part of it to get our
message out further. That's really what we're doing
(22:48):
in these six episodes for podcasts on We're going around
the world to talk about different continents and the
situations there. Yeah.
Briefly we mentioned the deaths occurring with exorcisms that
become violent here in the US and that falls under a project
(23:11):
called End Spiritual and Ritual Abuse.
And currently with that project,we're just kind of getting
familiar with what is happening in the country right now, what
has happened in the past decade.How does our legal system look
at it? How does the court look at it
when it's processing these trials and looking at the
(23:31):
charged individuals versus what's happened to a victim?
And we're doing that through media reporting and talking to
people. And if you have any insight on
that or leads from your organization or any type of
advocacy or legal work that you do, we would love for you to
(23:54):
reach out to us. This is an area that other parts
of the world kind of have a leadon us with.
There's been great data collected in some other
countries around spiritual and ritual abuse and we'd really
like to be able to show what's happening in the US around Sarah
spiritual and ritual abuse. Absolutely, and for updates on
(24:17):
all of our projects and more, subscribe to our newsletter.
You'll get exclusive content about witch hunt podcasts and
about historic witch trials, as well as updates on the modern
accusations. That comes out weekly.
It's cool because we put photos in there from our interviews or
(24:40):
if we've been out giving a presentation or if we've had an
event, they'll be updates. Another thing that we do, as in
witch hunts, is attend importantconferences.
Last year we went to two important conferences.
In September we went to the Magic and Witchcraft Conference
in York and we spoke about the modern witch hunt crisis there.
(25:05):
And then we went to a conference, the International
Conference on Witchcraft and Human Rights, which was totally,
entirely dedicated to the modernwitch hunting situation and
brought in advocates and leadersfrom around the world.
And it was those two experienceswere so amazing.
(25:25):
Really looking forward to getting back to some conferences
this year, including Magic and Witchcraft Conference 2025.
I'm so excited. It's in June, it's in York,
England, and the subject is whatis a witch?
How more exciting could you get of a topic?
Then it's like the central question of witch hunting or one
(25:50):
of the central questions to answer what even is a witch?
What do people believe witches can do and who they are?
So we've submitted to talk thereabout what is a witch in the
context of today's witch hunts, something that we've done
several episodes about. And we have, you know, a good
(26:11):
base of research to do that talk.
And we hope that you'll support our GoFundMe so we can go there
to spread awareness of the modern crisis of witchcraft
accusations and also to learn many more facts about what is a
witch from the historical witch trials, things that we can use
(26:32):
on this podcast. We'll be meeting guests that
will be on the podcast in the future, I'm sure, and just as we
did with our conferences last year, really be rounding out our
coming calendar for the second-half of the year with
people that we meet in June. Awesome.
(26:52):
Thanks for talking about our Go Fund Me.
We have AQR code that we'll put up here on the video and a link
in the description of this episode.
And thank you for helping us getthere this year too.
I want to talk about that conference that the other
conference that you brought up, Josh, the one for September, the
International Conference on Albinism at Lancaster
(27:15):
University. Yeah, Lancaster University is
hosting this conference. It's commemorating the 10 year
anniversary of the UN Human Rights Council's mandate on the
rights of persons with albinism,and it'll be going September
16th to 18th this year. We have they're addressing some
(27:39):
key challenges that persons withalbatism face in their life,
including skin cancer from the climate change threats.
They have educational, employment and community
inclusion barriers, and they face discrimination fueled by
supernatural beliefs and misinformation.
(28:00):
And they experience and die fromritual attacks and violence.
And we're actually going to tellmore of that story on tomorrow's
episode. Yes, we are.
And the conference will be emphasizing the needs for
enhanced data collection, stronger government protections,
(28:20):
international cooperation, grassroots collaborations and
cross movement partnerships. These conferences bring together
diverse participants. There are albinism advocates and
human rights defenders, medical researchers on genetics,
ophthalmology, dermatology, oncology, arts, humanities and
(28:42):
social science scholars, and interdisciplinary experts.
You can help in witch hunts by volunteering or donating to our
projects. Tomorrow our episode discusses
contemporary witch hunts across African countries based on the
conversations that we've had in our previous episodes.
(29:04):
So it's current information and experiences and you don't want
to miss that. This is a very under addressed
issue affecting communities throughout the continent.
And you want to be sure to tune in because you do not want to
miss the update we received fromDoctor Leo Egwe in Nigeria on
(29:28):
what advocacy for alleged witches is doing.
There's very powerful stories inthere, so do not miss it.
Thank you so much for joining usfor podcast on 2025.
Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.