This International Women's Day, we revisit the story of Arminda de Jesus, a 32-year-old mother accused of witchcraft in 1933 Portugal. Through our interview with Dr. Inês Tadeu from the University of Madeira, we present the historical facts of this little-known case from the village of Soalhães. Dr. Tadeu's research through trial records and newspaper accounts provides context for understanding how witchcraft accusations persisted into the 20th century. Arminda's case, occurring just 22 years after the first International Women's Day, illustrates the ongoing threat faced by women accused of witchcraft globally.
Content warning: Contains descriptions of violence.
Witch Hunt Episode: Witchcraft Accusations and Gender Inequality with Dr. Samantha Spence
Witch Hunt Episode: Women and Witch Trials with Ann Little
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MD Witch Exoneration Project Website
Sign the Massachusetts Petition
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast about historical witch
trials and the modern persecution of people accused of
witchcraft. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
And I'm Sarah Jack. In this International Women's
Day special edition, we revisit the intriguing story of our
Aminda de Jesus. When we think of witch burnings,
most of us picture distant centuries.
(00:20):
But today, we're exploring a case that challenges everything
we think we know about when witch hunts ended.
In 1933, in the small Portuguesevillage of Sualez, a 32 year old
mother of two named Armindo de Jesus was accused of which
happened by her neighbor, a woman she had spent years caring
for during illness. What followed was a scene of
(00:43):
intense brutality in 20th century Europe.
Today we're sharing a portion ofour interview with Doctor Ines
to Do from the University of Madera, who has been working to
uncover Aminda's story and ensure she is not forgotten.
We bring this to you on International Women's Day to
point out that witchcraft accusations have continued and
(01:03):
remained a form of gender based violence towards women.
This tragic incident occurred 22years after the first
International Women's Day was observed.
Arminda was killed on February 25th, 1933, just 92 years ago.
Not many generations have passed, but the tale is already
obscure. However, through trial records,
(01:26):
newspaper accounts and her own research visits to Swallows Dr.
To Do brings this powerful storyto light.
As we continue to document whichpersecutions happening around
the world today, Arminda's case reminds us that the mechanisms
of fear and scapegoating that drive witch hunts persisted well
into the modern era and continueto threaten vulnerable
(01:47):
individuals today. Through this episode, we seek to
honor Arminda's memory and recognize her humanity by saying
her name and acknowledging her suffering.
We take a small but crucial steptoward justice for all victims
of witchcraft accusations. Content warning This episode
contains descriptions of violence and murder.
(02:08):
We believe it's crucial to remember stories like Armena de
Jesus not just as historical events, but as warnings about
how quickly fear can turn to violence in any era.
We're grateful to Doctor Tadeo for sharing this powerful story
and shining a light on this important case.
So she was 32 years old and the mother of two little children,
(02:32):
Manuel and Invention Lena. And she was at the time her
husband was in Brazil, as it wasvery often in Portugal at that
time. The wives would stay with the
children and the husbands would migrate to places like Brazil or
Venezuela or et cetera. And she was, she's listed as
(02:53):
being a farmer, but not in the sense of owning the farm.
She was a laborer that would work at farms.
Like they did that a lot at thattime as well.
They didn't own the farm, but they would work and get paid per
day. And she lived right next door to
another lady called Joaquina. And Joaquina, unfortunately,
(03:15):
also in her 3037, slightly older.
And she had actually six children.
The youngest was still a toddler, not even it was an
infant at the time this whole thing happened.
But she had been known for yearsto suffer these crises.
You have different descriptions of it, but if you put it all
(03:36):
together, it seems to me that she was epileptic at in the very
least because she would have these shakes and these no one
could control her. But she would also go into
screaming and shouting and saying that she was being
tormented. It almost she was to, to the
(03:57):
naked eye, to the untrained eye,she look afflicted really seeing
if we, again, based on the different accounts, you almost
probably was, I don't know, bipolar or something like that.
I don't know the way that they go on about it.
And this had been going on for four, three to four years.
She would just collapse and thenhave these crises and while that
(04:18):
was happening, Adaminda, her next door neighbor, would
actually come over, take care ofher.
Adaminda would babysit the kids because she had her own
children. They still were also young,
Joaquina's children, also young.She would also do that.
She would nurse Joaquina back tohealth.
That this is the accounts that you get from the different, the
(04:40):
trial, the trial records and as well as the newspapers as well.
So the, and I wish I could show the picture, but you know what
I'm talking about. They really literally live next
to each other. It's like as close as possible,
right? And, but that particular year in
(05:00):
1933, Joaquin got really, reallybad.
It got worse, the crisis got worse.
And she kept on saying she's being afflicted and it just went
on and on. And her husband didn't know what
to do, so he asked his brother-in-law and, and and you
might ask, why would you ask that person?
(05:20):
Well, that person based again onthe accounts he seemed to think
of himself as, I wouldn't say witch doctor, but at least
what's black cook called the unwitcher.
He felt himself like being the person in the in that area who
could help with certain things. Because people were starting to
think she really was afflicted by spirits, by evil spirits.
(05:42):
They wouldn't, they didn't thinkthat maybe she needed a doctor
or anything. No, because the way that she
would act, it just felt like it has to be something else.
It can't just be health related,right?
So when a Stasi paradic came over with his trusted book, the
Book of Saints, the Prion, one of those books that in Portugal
you just do not say the name when you do not buy it because
(06:06):
it's dangerous. He, he did some prayers and, and
he did some smudging with olive tree leaves and Rosemary Bush
was a very traditional thing in Portugal to, to smudge the
houses with Rosemary Bush or drink the tea to protect you
from evil spirits as well. It's a very, very normal thing.
(06:27):
And he tried to do that, but Jokina didn't respond.
She didn't get better eventually, and this is
interesting because in the trialthey don't mention that the
trial records but in the newspapers they do.
They eventually called a series of witches. 3 different witches
came, none of them so known. When I say witches I mean wise
women from the neighboring towns.
(06:50):
They couldn't help until the one, this one came, this Olivia
person, and she was the one who actually went to give her
account. And she's like, yes, I'm sorry,
but Jacquina is possessed. There's two spirits.
There's a good one and a bad one.
And this, there's no way to solve this.
She's going to be like this forever.
(07:12):
But Anastasi insisted he wanted to help, right?
So they did these sessions in that particular month.
So the whole thing happened on the 21st of February the the,
the last days leading up to the 2020.
First they did a series of they would invite the family over and
they were doing like these prayers like these, these
(07:34):
rituals at our place. Like they would read from the
book and pray from the book and do the smudging.
And they did it for a few nights.
And what's interesting is this because there's two conflicting
accounts, but one actually showsthis.
I mean, that was part of that. She liked her neighbor.
She wanted to help Joaquina. She was also in those prayers up
(07:57):
leading up to the 21st. But on on that particular night,
she was late for whatever reason, she wasn't there at the
same time as everyone else. So everyone else was already
experiencing all these things where they were as Joaquina was
giving them instructions to lie on the ground and they would and
then look as if they were dead and then they would come back to
(08:17):
life. It was this whole production,
this whole show, right? And then that's when she walked
in on that particular night. That's Saturday, 25th of
February, the weekend before what in Portugal we celebrate as
being carnival. And she walked in and as she was
asked to lie on the ground, she had a bad reaction.
(08:37):
We can't possibly guess what it was, right?
We can only imagine. And again, these are trial
records, people saying things, right?
And someone took the notes down.We will never know the details
unless you were actually there, right?
That's always the issue. And she had a bad reaction.
She herself started having some sort of affliction.
(08:58):
She started laughing, she started crying, she started
reacting badly. She started saying she could see
these little lights. And at that moment, Joaquina
decided that she was that Amindawho had just walked in and had
that bad reaction. She's possessed and I'm
possessed because she's possessed.
So if you want to help me, you have to do something about the
(09:20):
Amanda. And that's where everything took
a really bad turn to the worst. And Stasi went with it.
And at first they beat her up. They dragged her out of the
house. Not only these men that were all
related to Joaquina, but I mean,this brother was also in that
(09:41):
group of people who dragged her out of the house.
His name was Jemontaido. And they first beat up with
these, it's these, it's like these tree branches, these
quench sticks, like with these sticks.
And those sticks were actually included in the trial evidence.
And one of them was actually broken.
So they really hit as hard as possible with those sticks to
(10:02):
the point of breaking those sticks, right.
And the what the whole instruction was, oh, she has to
be beaten until she says I'm in a douche.
Oh my God. And then she they'll stay.
They stopped. She said that, of course, who
wouldn't, right? And they dragged her back in and
Joaquina kept on saying, no, she's still possessed.
(10:23):
They dragged her back out. This is just, you know, every
time I say this, it's just it really gets to me, the whole
thing. And they dragged her back out
again and they carried on with the beating.
But this time, German said her brother was already horrified by
this. And he started saying, I think
he started to intervene. And that's when he claims that
they threaten him. If you do anything to stop us,
(10:45):
you're next. Basically.
He just left her. He left her.
He left her to her own, to theirdevices.
And that's when they went and started a fire because she was
half, she was unconscious and they just put pine needles,
dried pine needles over her and they just started the fire.
This is where the accounts differ.
(11:06):
Some say that it was Joaquina kept on saying that to do that.
Others say that Anastasio was the one behind it, the on
Witcher guy. The point is the fire was
started and this woman who was still alive got burned to death
and no one stopped it. And people, most people fled in
(11:27):
horror. But there's one freakish account
that says that actually Joaquina's family were just
there looking at it and they allinsiders this.
This is the part that I don't know if they just got together
and all came up with the same story or this is the part where
did they really believe. They all insisted they truly
believed she was going to come back to life the next day, that
(11:49):
they would just, it was a ritualby fire to to get rid of the
supposed demons, whatever that she had in order to save
Joaquina, right? Others insist that Joaquina was
a master of everything. Why did they listen to her life?
They will never know. Joaquina later is deemed unfit
(12:11):
to stand trial because they wentshe was institutionalized and
they she they actually believed that she wasn't in her right
mind. So she couldn't stand trial.
And she had also conflicting information.
She would either say no, I didn't do anything, or she would
say that I have no recollection from that period, like from the
(12:35):
period of 20 something in February all the way through to
April. I have no recollection of what
happened in my life during that time because I was so ill.
But there's also other accounts that she was destroying the the
room in the institution, like with her hands, she would tear
apart the bedding and all that stuff.
So it's again, unless we actually go and check out those
(12:58):
records, which I don't even knowwhere to begin.
We don't know. All I know is that why would
this group of men listen to thiswoman so easily?
And it has to be you have to kind of come to grips with they
must have really believed what they were doing.
However, the Portuguese authorities struggled with the
(13:18):
whole superstition thing and they tried to find two other
avenues for motive. One of the avenues was that
Anastasia Pereira had borrowed money from Adaminda and her
husband, and they wanted to see that.
Maybe that's why he forced the whole situation so he didn't
have to pay back the money. However, they couldn't find any
(13:42):
indication that Adminda was asking for the money back and
she actually had a nice hefty bank account apparently at the
time and they didn't see a reason for it to that she was
pestering Anastasia with that. Another Ave. was, and this is
interesting because this was suggested by Adam Mendez,
widower once, because he came from Brazil soon after and he
(14:03):
still spoke to the authorities and he was at the trial as well.
And he was convinced that Joaquina wasn't crazy and she
knew exactly what she was doing because Joaquina had asked
Anastasia's wife to go and tell the people that there was going
to be a miracle on at our house,like she was premeditating
(14:25):
something. That's what he suggested.
However, when it came to the trial, it just came down to
superstition and a gruesome death, but they still considered
it involuntary manslaughter. I don't know how is that And the
reasons the defense uses reasonssuch as, oh, these poor men,
(14:47):
yeah, they did what they did, but they are poor and they are
stupid and they are superstitious and they are.
It's like all these reasons is like, I'm sorry, an innocent
woman was killed brutally. I don't care about those kind of
oh, they were superstitious. Yeah.
After that happened during that night again, conflicting
(15:10):
account. Some say her body was just left
there for two days. No one did anything at at the
doorsteps of Jokina and that someone addressed Jokina.
What is this? And that she just casually said
I don't know this is it's all horrifying.
Others say that the next morningsomeone had covered the body
(15:31):
with a blanket or something. And they people were coming over
to see the horrifying scene to check is this was this that mean
that because everyone knew her. She was a good neighbor.
She went loved in that area. No one had a complaint.
At least you can't find in the red because no one said oh, she
was mean nothing like that. Everyone keeps on saying no, we
(15:53):
loved her. She was such a depressed and
there's also one that claims that's understands you.
The whole the on which a guy hadcome over the next morning and
he had a pickaxe and they were wondering if he wasn't going to
just get rid of her remains. But there were so many people
around apparently that they didn't he didn't have the
(16:14):
chance. The interesting thing is that
when they finally called what inPortugal at that time, we used
to call the who's door. It's like the closest thing I
can think in in American cultures, like the sheriff, the
town sheriff kind of thing. Why did the small area away from
the authorities? So you have this little sheriff
guy and he arrested them. And Anastasia was the only one
(16:39):
who resisted arrest. She tried to to escape.
All the others would just yeah, we did it and we sorry.
And we really thought that she was going to come back to live.
And he was the only one who didn't want.
He tried, but then he confessed.They all confessed.
They all confessed. Yeah.
But we thought we were doing something good.
We were helping Joaquin and we were helping Arminda.
(16:59):
That the way that it comes out in the trial.
Yeah. Bad.
And then they were found. So the trial took a year, more
or less. So that between the inquiry and
all that, it was a year later that it took place in thirty,
1934, May 1934. It was, I would say it's a short
(17:20):
trial compared to today's. What happened today or because
it was one day for all the witnesses and then they had to
postpone and then a second day for just to show the closing
arguments and the decision. And the second day was actually
at Marc Navia's show. Everyone came to watch it.
Everyone from around there came to just see that.
(17:41):
And then at 8:00 at night, I can't imagine a court being open
at 8:00 at night today. But at that time they were.
The sentence came out and they were sentenced.
They were all found guilty and they were sentenced to over 20
years in jail. Or they had the option of being
exiled to one of the Portuguese colonies.
(18:02):
It was a very common thing at the time.
It would be sent basically to the edge of the empire kind of
thing. And it would be could be
Mozambique or Angola or Santo main priest also happened that
the islands, the African islands, but apparently they
chose to stay in Portugal. And they also had to pay each
one of them, the whole of them, the four men, the three men had
(18:25):
to pay actually a form of restitution to Arminda's family.
And it was quite hard for the time. 6 stage middle school, so
like 6. I can't even imagine what that
is in today's money. I will have to figure that out.
But at that time it was a lot ofmoney.
And again, made me mad to find out again that they didn't even
(18:45):
they didn't stay in prison for the whole sentence because of 13
years later, 13, only 13 years later, there was all sorts of
amnesties and they were given the right to to they were
released. So this woman died the way she
did, got gets forgotten by everyone, including her family.
(19:09):
And these men just got 13 years and went on with their lives.
And when the family didn't, theyreally didn't discuss it at all.
There was this in one of the newspaper reports, someone who
claimed to the newspaper, to thereporter that he actually knew
he was a nephew by marriage of Angelina's son.
(19:32):
And he says, I've never heard Manuel ever speaking about his
mother. I don't know.
It's I don't know if it's the trauma and you just want you
just don't want to deal with it or if it's the shame that you
believe that she actually was. I, I don't know what it is, but
to me, it's the family didn't memorialize her either at all.
(19:53):
The fact that those houses are still standing, it's actually
amazing. You would think that that they
would have taken that how those houses brick by brick down.
But apparently Joaquin must havecarried on her life as well.
I don't, I, I, I haven't found information if she was
institutionalized for the rest of her life or she carried on
with her life because her husband went to prison.
(20:15):
So who was going to take care ofher and her children?
I, I really want to go down thatrabbit hole, find out more about
that. But those houses are standing
there, right? And people know that thing
happened there. For me, it was because I wanted,
I do that a lot when I went to Salem, when I went to Pendle
(20:35):
Hill, and I like to go and experience the area.
Of course, it's 20th century. It's not the same, but I still
like to go there and have that feeling.
And for me it was shocking. I kept on telling the lady of
the of the council, the people assisted me.
So this is it. They were that.
I kept on repeating myself because I can't understand, or
(20:56):
maybe I can. I don't know.
How can people who were so closein every possible way do that to
each other and carry on with their lives because they were so
convinced that they were doing the right thing?
It's scary, but for me, what's more scary and more sad is not
(21:16):
being. No one talks.
They don't even know about her name there.
They actually from the conversations, a few
conversations I had, they seem to conflate the two Joaquin and
Arminda. They just say, oh, she was the
crazy lady who was possessed by the demons and like, wait, no,
which one is the crazy? Joaquin was the one who was
known as being the crazy Atula, the fool.
(21:39):
What? That's not the Minda.
Minda was the other one and but it's all conflated.
It's all confused. And the one of the people, the
young woman that was assisting me, that took me around, she
actually, she, she went to law school.
And she was also telling me thather colleagues from other
universities, such as Universityof Quimbra, which or, or what
(22:02):
would will study? They study, they actually study
this case because in the law it's one of those examples.
What do we do with this? How would we defend this?
How would you judge that? But in Porto, which is the
district of Swellesh, no one touches that.
It's not part of the curriculum.And it's like, why does one
university, that particular university?
(22:25):
But there's a lot of unanswered questions for me.
I think there's still a lot of work.
I'm surprised at not like I said, I'm not an historian.
I'm surprised at no historian inPortugal has picked up on it.
Do a proper go through anything,dig it up.
I'm going to try and see if I can do more because recently I
found another interesting article not directly about
(22:47):
remained in her story, but that the New York Times in 1929
reported that Portugal was having a hard time controlling
their witches. And it's not a joke because I
actually thought this is a joke that they were trying to.
The Portuguese authorities in 1925 at 29 were trying to teach
(23:12):
the population to not resort to witches, and they couldn't stop
it. They were struggling with it.
That's another interesting rabbit hole that I want to go
down because I want to understand, really.
I've never read anything about that again in Portugal,
unfortunately, with the exceptions of, like I mentioned,
Pina Cabral or another one is Peter Piper.
(23:35):
Very few historians have dedicated themselves to
witchcraft or the witch hunts, to be more precise, or any
cases. There are cases, but there's
very little even paid attention to it just gets dismissed and
disregard is like, yeah, it was just the fluke or I don't know.
But for me it's, I don't know why it just, I don't understand
(23:56):
how it can just be forgotten like that.
How I don't understand. It should be part of the
cultural memory of that place. This person was treated like the
right. It's quite a powerful story and
it should be known. It's important to know that
these things still happen and sowe can try and do something
(24:20):
about them. So thank you so much for sharing
that. Thank you for joining us on
Witch Hunt. You should check out our robust
catalog of expert discussions. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast about historical witch
trials and the modern persecution of people accused of
witchcraft. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
And I'm Sarah Jack. In this International Women's
Day special edition, we revisit the intriguing story of our
Aminda de Jesus. When we think of witch burnings,
most of us picture distant centuries.
(00:20):
But today, we're exploring a case that challenges everything
we think we know about when witch hunts ended.
In 1933, in the small Portuguesevillage of Sualez, a 32 year old
mother of two named Armindo de Jesus was accused of which
happened by her neighbor, a woman she had spent years caring
for during illness. What followed was a scene of
(00:43):
intense brutality in 20th century Europe.
Today we're sharing a portion ofour interview with Doctor Ines
to Do from the University of Madera, who has been working to
uncover Aminda's story and ensure she is not forgotten.
We bring this to you on International Women's Day to
point out that witchcraft accusations have continued and
(01:03):
remained a form of gender based violence towards women.
This tragic incident occurred 22years after the first
International Women's Day was observed.
Arminda was killed on February 25th, 1933, just 92 years ago.
Not many generations have passed, but the tale is already
obscure. However, through trial records,
(01:26):
newspaper accounts and her own research visits to Swallows Dr.
To Do brings this powerful storyto light.
As we continue to document whichpersecutions happening around
the world today, Arminda's case reminds us that the mechanisms
of fear and scapegoating that drive witch hunts persisted well
into the modern era and continueto threaten vulnerable
(01:47):
individuals today. Through this episode, we seek to
honor Arminda's memory and recognize her humanity by saying
her name and acknowledging her suffering.
We take a small but crucial steptoward justice for all victims
of witchcraft accusations. Content warning This episode
contains descriptions of violence and murder.
(02:08):
We believe it's crucial to remember stories like Armena de
Jesus not just as historical events, but as warnings about
how quickly fear can turn to violence in any era.
We're grateful to Doctor Tadeo for sharing this powerful story
and shining a light on this important case.
So she was 32 years old and the mother of two little children,
(02:32):
Manuel and Invention Lena. And she was at the time her
husband was in Brazil, as it wasvery often in Portugal at that
time. The wives would stay with the
children and the husbands would migrate to places like Brazil or
Venezuela or et cetera. And she was, she's listed as
(02:53):
being a farmer, but not in the sense of owning the farm.
She was a laborer that would work at farms.
Like they did that a lot at thattime as well.
They didn't own the farm, but they would work and get paid per
day. And she lived right next door to
another lady called Joaquina. And Joaquina, unfortunately,
(03:15):
also in her 3037, slightly older.
And she had actually six children.
The youngest was still a toddler, not even it was an
infant at the time this whole thing happened.
But she had been known for yearsto suffer these crises.
You have different descriptions of it, but if you put it all
(03:36):
together, it seems to me that she was epileptic at in the very
least because she would have these shakes and these no one
could control her. But she would also go into
screaming and shouting and saying that she was being
tormented. It almost she was to, to the
(03:57):
naked eye, to the untrained eye,she look afflicted really seeing
if we, again, based on the different accounts, you almost
probably was, I don't know, bipolar or something like that.
I don't know the way that they go on about it.
And this had been going on for four, three to four years.
She would just collapse and thenhave these crises and while that
(04:18):
was happening, Adaminda, her next door neighbor, would
actually come over, take care ofher.
Adaminda would babysit the kids because she had her own
children. They still were also young,
Joaquina's children, also young.She would also do that.
She would nurse Joaquina back tohealth.
That this is the accounts that you get from the different, the
(04:40):
trial, the trial records and as well as the newspapers as well.
So the, and I wish I could show the picture, but you know what
I'm talking about. They really literally live next
to each other. It's like as close as possible,
right? And, but that particular year in
(05:00):
1933, Joaquin got really, reallybad.
It got worse, the crisis got worse.
And she kept on saying she's being afflicted and it just went
on and on. And her husband didn't know what
to do, so he asked his brother-in-law and, and and you
might ask, why would you ask that person?
(05:20):
Well, that person based again onthe accounts he seemed to think
of himself as, I wouldn't say witch doctor, but at least
what's black cook called the unwitcher.
He felt himself like being the person in the in that area who
could help with certain things. Because people were starting to
think she really was afflicted by spirits, by evil spirits.
(05:42):
They wouldn't, they didn't thinkthat maybe she needed a doctor
or anything. No, because the way that she
would act, it just felt like it has to be something else.
It can't just be health related,right?
So when a Stasi paradic came over with his trusted book, the
Book of Saints, the Prion, one of those books that in Portugal
you just do not say the name when you do not buy it because
(06:06):
it's dangerous. He, he did some prayers and, and
he did some smudging with olive tree leaves and Rosemary Bush
was a very traditional thing in Portugal to, to smudge the
houses with Rosemary Bush or drink the tea to protect you
from evil spirits as well. It's a very, very normal thing.
(06:27):
And he tried to do that, but Jokina didn't respond.
She didn't get better eventually, and this is
interesting because in the trialthey don't mention that the
trial records but in the newspapers they do.
They eventually called a series of witches. 3 different witches
came, none of them so known. When I say witches I mean wise
women from the neighboring towns.
(06:50):
They couldn't help until the one, this one came, this Olivia
person, and she was the one who actually went to give her
account. And she's like, yes, I'm sorry,
but Jacquina is possessed. There's two spirits.
There's a good one and a bad one.
And this, there's no way to solve this.
She's going to be like this forever.
(07:12):
But Anastasi insisted he wanted to help, right?
So they did these sessions in that particular month.
So the whole thing happened on the 21st of February the the,
the last days leading up to the 2020.
First they did a series of they would invite the family over and
they were doing like these prayers like these, these
(07:34):
rituals at our place. Like they would read from the
book and pray from the book and do the smudging.
And they did it for a few nights.
And what's interesting is this because there's two conflicting
accounts, but one actually showsthis.
I mean, that was part of that. She liked her neighbor.
She wanted to help Joaquina. She was also in those prayers up
(07:57):
leading up to the 21st. But on on that particular night,
she was late for whatever reason, she wasn't there at the
same time as everyone else. So everyone else was already
experiencing all these things where they were as Joaquina was
giving them instructions to lie on the ground and they would and
then look as if they were dead and then they would come back to
(08:17):
life. It was this whole production,
this whole show, right? And then that's when she walked
in on that particular night. That's Saturday, 25th of
February, the weekend before what in Portugal we celebrate as
being carnival. And she walked in and as she was
asked to lie on the ground, she had a bad reaction.
(08:37):
We can't possibly guess what it was, right?
We can only imagine. And again, these are trial
records, people saying things, right?
And someone took the notes down.We will never know the details
unless you were actually there, right?
That's always the issue. And she had a bad reaction.
She herself started having some sort of affliction.
(08:58):
She started laughing, she started crying, she started
reacting badly. She started saying she could see
these little lights. And at that moment, Joaquina
decided that she was that Amindawho had just walked in and had
that bad reaction. She's possessed and I'm
possessed because she's possessed.
So if you want to help me, you have to do something about the
(09:20):
Amanda. And that's where everything took
a really bad turn to the worst. And Stasi went with it.
And at first they beat her up. They dragged her out of the
house. Not only these men that were all
related to Joaquina, but I mean,this brother was also in that
(09:41):
group of people who dragged her out of the house.
His name was Jemontaido. And they first beat up with
these, it's these, it's like these tree branches, these
quench sticks, like with these sticks.
And those sticks were actually included in the trial evidence.
And one of them was actually broken.
So they really hit as hard as possible with those sticks to
(10:02):
the point of breaking those sticks, right.
And the what the whole instruction was, oh, she has to
be beaten until she says I'm in a douche.
Oh my God. And then she they'll stay.
They stopped. She said that, of course, who
wouldn't, right? And they dragged her back in and
Joaquina kept on saying, no, she's still possessed.
(10:23):
They dragged her back out. This is just, you know, every
time I say this, it's just it really gets to me, the whole
thing. And they dragged her back out
again and they carried on with the beating.
But this time, German said her brother was already horrified by
this. And he started saying, I think
he started to intervene. And that's when he claims that
they threaten him. If you do anything to stop us,
(10:45):
you're next. Basically.
He just left her. He left her.
He left her to her own, to theirdevices.
And that's when they went and started a fire because she was
half, she was unconscious and they just put pine needles,
dried pine needles over her and they just started the fire.
This is where the accounts differ.
(11:06):
Some say that it was Joaquina kept on saying that to do that.
Others say that Anastasio was the one behind it, the on
Witcher guy. The point is the fire was
started and this woman who was still alive got burned to death
and no one stopped it. And people, most people fled in
(11:27):
horror. But there's one freakish account
that says that actually Joaquina's family were just
there looking at it and they allinsiders this.
This is the part that I don't know if they just got together
and all came up with the same story or this is the part where
did they really believe. They all insisted they truly
believed she was going to come back to life the next day, that
(11:49):
they would just, it was a ritualby fire to to get rid of the
supposed demons, whatever that she had in order to save
Joaquina, right? Others insist that Joaquina was
a master of everything. Why did they listen to her life?
They will never know. Joaquina later is deemed unfit
(12:11):
to stand trial because they wentshe was institutionalized and
they she they actually believed that she wasn't in her right
mind. So she couldn't stand trial.
And she had also conflicting information.
She would either say no, I didn't do anything, or she would
say that I have no recollection from that period, like from the
(12:35):
period of 20 something in February all the way through to
April. I have no recollection of what
happened in my life during that time because I was so ill.
But there's also other accounts that she was destroying the the
room in the institution, like with her hands, she would tear
apart the bedding and all that stuff.
So it's again, unless we actually go and check out those
(12:58):
records, which I don't even knowwhere to begin.
We don't know. All I know is that why would
this group of men listen to thiswoman so easily?
And it has to be you have to kind of come to grips with they
must have really believed what they were doing.
However, the Portuguese authorities struggled with the
(13:18):
whole superstition thing and they tried to find two other
avenues for motive. One of the avenues was that
Anastasia Pereira had borrowed money from Adaminda and her
husband, and they wanted to see that.
Maybe that's why he forced the whole situation so he didn't
have to pay back the money. However, they couldn't find any
(13:42):
indication that Adminda was asking for the money back and
she actually had a nice hefty bank account apparently at the
time and they didn't see a reason for it to that she was
pestering Anastasia with that. Another Ave. was, and this is
interesting because this was suggested by Adam Mendez,
widower once, because he came from Brazil soon after and he
(14:03):
still spoke to the authorities and he was at the trial as well.
And he was convinced that Joaquina wasn't crazy and she
knew exactly what she was doing because Joaquina had asked
Anastasia's wife to go and tell the people that there was going
to be a miracle on at our house,like she was premeditating
(14:25):
something. That's what he suggested.
However, when it came to the trial, it just came down to
superstition and a gruesome death, but they still considered
it involuntary manslaughter. I don't know how is that And the
reasons the defense uses reasonssuch as, oh, these poor men,
(14:47):
yeah, they did what they did, but they are poor and they are
stupid and they are superstitious and they are.
It's like all these reasons is like, I'm sorry, an innocent
woman was killed brutally. I don't care about those kind of
oh, they were superstitious. Yeah.
After that happened during that night again, conflicting
(15:10):
account. Some say her body was just left
there for two days. No one did anything at at the
doorsteps of Jokina and that someone addressed Jokina.
What is this? And that she just casually said
I don't know this is it's all horrifying.
Others say that the next morningsomeone had covered the body
(15:31):
with a blanket or something. And they people were coming over
to see the horrifying scene to check is this was this that mean
that because everyone knew her. She was a good neighbor.
She went loved in that area. No one had a complaint.
At least you can't find in the red because no one said oh, she
was mean nothing like that. Everyone keeps on saying no, we
(15:53):
loved her. She was such a depressed and
there's also one that claims that's understands you.
The whole the on which a guy hadcome over the next morning and
he had a pickaxe and they were wondering if he wasn't going to
just get rid of her remains. But there were so many people
around apparently that they didn't he didn't have the
(16:14):
chance. The interesting thing is that
when they finally called what inPortugal at that time, we used
to call the who's door. It's like the closest thing I
can think in in American cultures, like the sheriff, the
town sheriff kind of thing. Why did the small area away from
the authorities? So you have this little sheriff
guy and he arrested them. And Anastasia was the only one
(16:39):
who resisted arrest. She tried to to escape.
All the others would just yeah, we did it and we sorry.
And we really thought that she was going to come back to live.
And he was the only one who didn't want.
He tried, but then he confessed.They all confessed.
They all confessed. Yeah.
But we thought we were doing something good.
We were helping Joaquin and we were helping Arminda.
(16:59):
That the way that it comes out in the trial.
Yeah. Bad.
And then they were found. So the trial took a year, more
or less. So that between the inquiry and
all that, it was a year later that it took place in thirty,
1934, May 1934. It was, I would say it's a short
(17:20):
trial compared to today's. What happened today or because
it was one day for all the witnesses and then they had to
postpone and then a second day for just to show the closing
arguments and the decision. And the second day was actually
at Marc Navia's show. Everyone came to watch it.
Everyone from around there came to just see that.
(17:41):
And then at 8:00 at night, I can't imagine a court being open
at 8:00 at night today. But at that time they were.
The sentence came out and they were sentenced.
They were all found guilty and they were sentenced to over 20
years in jail. Or they had the option of being
exiled to one of the Portuguese colonies.
(18:02):
It was a very common thing at the time.
It would be sent basically to the edge of the empire kind of
thing. And it would be could be
Mozambique or Angola or Santo main priest also happened that
the islands, the African islands, but apparently they
chose to stay in Portugal. And they also had to pay each
one of them, the whole of them, the four men, the three men had
(18:25):
to pay actually a form of restitution to Arminda's family.
And it was quite hard for the time. 6 stage middle school, so
like 6. I can't even imagine what that
is in today's money. I will have to figure that out.
But at that time it was a lot ofmoney.
And again, made me mad to find out again that they didn't even
(18:45):
they didn't stay in prison for the whole sentence because of 13
years later, 13, only 13 years later, there was all sorts of
amnesties and they were given the right to to they were
released. So this woman died the way she
did, got gets forgotten by everyone, including her family.
(19:09):
And these men just got 13 years and went on with their lives.
And when the family didn't, theyreally didn't discuss it at all.
There was this in one of the newspaper reports, someone who
claimed to the newspaper, to thereporter that he actually knew
he was a nephew by marriage of Angelina's son.
(19:32):
And he says, I've never heard Manuel ever speaking about his
mother. I don't know.
It's I don't know if it's the trauma and you just want you
just don't want to deal with it or if it's the shame that you
believe that she actually was. I, I don't know what it is, but
to me, it's the family didn't memorialize her either at all.
(19:53):
The fact that those houses are still standing, it's actually
amazing. You would think that that they
would have taken that how those houses brick by brick down.
But apparently Joaquin must havecarried on her life as well.
I don't, I, I, I haven't found information if she was
institutionalized for the rest of her life or she carried on
with her life because her husband went to prison.
(20:15):
So who was going to take care ofher and her children?
I, I really want to go down thatrabbit hole, find out more about
that. But those houses are standing
there, right? And people know that thing
happened there. For me, it was because I wanted,
I do that a lot when I went to Salem, when I went to Pendle
(20:35):
Hill, and I like to go and experience the area.
Of course, it's 20th century. It's not the same, but I still
like to go there and have that feeling.
And for me it was shocking. I kept on telling the lady of
the of the council, the people assisted me.
So this is it. They were that.
I kept on repeating myself because I can't understand, or
(20:56):
maybe I can. I don't know.
How can people who were so closein every possible way do that to
each other and carry on with their lives because they were so
convinced that they were doing the right thing?
It's scary, but for me, what's more scary and more sad is not
(21:16):
being. No one talks.
They don't even know about her name there.
They actually from the conversations, a few
conversations I had, they seem to conflate the two Joaquin and
Arminda. They just say, oh, she was the
crazy lady who was possessed by the demons and like, wait, no,
which one is the crazy? Joaquin was the one who was
known as being the crazy Atula, the fool.
(21:39):
What? That's not the Minda.
Minda was the other one and but it's all conflated.
It's all confused. And the one of the people, the
young woman that was assisting me, that took me around, she
actually, she, she went to law school.
And she was also telling me thather colleagues from other
universities, such as Universityof Quimbra, which or, or what
(22:02):
would will study? They study, they actually study
this case because in the law it's one of those examples.
What do we do with this? How would we defend this?
How would you judge that? But in Porto, which is the
district of Swellesh, no one touches that.
It's not part of the curriculum.And it's like, why does one
university, that particular university?
(22:25):
But there's a lot of unanswered questions for me.
I think there's still a lot of work.
I'm surprised at not like I said, I'm not an historian.
I'm surprised at no historian inPortugal has picked up on it.
Do a proper go through anything,dig it up.
I'm going to try and see if I can do more because recently I
found another interesting article not directly about
(22:47):
remained in her story, but that the New York Times in 1929
reported that Portugal was having a hard time controlling
their witches. And it's not a joke because I
actually thought this is a joke that they were trying to.
The Portuguese authorities in 1925 at 29 were trying to teach
(23:12):
the population to not resort to witches, and they couldn't stop
it. They were struggling with it.
That's another interesting rabbit hole that I want to go
down because I want to understand, really.
I've never read anything about that again in Portugal,
unfortunately, with the exceptions of, like I mentioned,
Pina Cabral or another one is Peter Piper.
(23:35):
Very few historians have dedicated themselves to
witchcraft or the witch hunts, to be more precise, or any
cases. There are cases, but there's
very little even paid attention to it just gets dismissed and
disregard is like, yeah, it was just the fluke or I don't know.
But for me it's, I don't know why it just, I don't understand
(23:56):
how it can just be forgotten like that.
How I don't understand. It should be part of the
cultural memory of that place. This person was treated like the
right. It's quite a powerful story and
it should be known. It's important to know that
these things still happen and sowe can try and do something
(24:20):
about them. So thank you so much for sharing
that. Thank you for joining us on
Witch Hunt. You should check out our robust
catalog of expert discussions. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
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