March 26, 2025 • 51 mins
In this compelling episode, we welcome back returning guest Dr. Govind Kelkar. Building on her previous insights about women's experiences in India, Dr. Kelkar shares her recent groundbreaking research across eight northeastern Indian states, examining the complex interplay between traditional beliefs and modern pressures.
Dr. Kelkar's fieldwork reveals how patriarchal systems have intensified within these communities, fueling the devaluation of women and perpetuating the dangerous practice of witch branding. Her research uncovers unexpected connections between economic development initiatives, efforts at cultural preservation, and gender-based violence.
Listeners will gain deep insights into how evolved capitalist economic structures have transformed traditional gender dynamics in these regions, creating new vulnerabilities for women. We discuss the formidable challenges facing activists working to create safer spaces, and explore how feminist movements can effectively address witchcraft accusations while honoring indigenous rights and cultural autonomy.
This episode offers a straightforward look at the intersection of gender, power, and belief systems, essential listening for anyone seeking to understand the persistence of witch hunts in our modern world.
Research Documents and Books by Govind Kelkar
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
But there is a silver lining in this.
There are women who are questioning this, either vocally
or in action. Welcome back to Witch Hunt
Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
And I'm Sarah Jack. We're continuing our exploration
of contemporary witch hunting practices around the world with
our returning guest, Doctor Govan Gelpert.
(00:22):
In an earlier episode that you need to listen to, she shared
valuable insights into the experiences of women in India.
Today, she's discussing her recent research in field work
examining witch hunts and ritualattacks across 8 northeastern
states of India. Doctor Kelker's research reveals
how patriarchal systems have intensified within these
(00:44):
communities, leading to the devaluation of women and
perpetuating harmful practices like witch branding.
Her work uncovers surprising connections between economic
development, cultural preservation and gender based
violence. You'll learn how capitalism has
transformed gender dynamics in these regions, about the
(01:05):
challenges facing activists working to create safer spaces
for women. And how feminist movements might
address witchcraft accusations while respecting indigenous
rights and cultural autonomy. It's so good to have you back.
Thank you for all that you taught us on your first visit.
That conversation was a startingpoint for us as a podcast to
(01:34):
look at India and to start looking at the different
experiences happening there. So we really appreciate what you
taught us on that episode, and we're so glad to have you here
today to talk about your recent book.
Can you please introduce yourself and tell us about your
recent work? Well my name is Govind Kelkar
(01:56):
and last year I completed a study of eight northeastern
state in India. So these states of North India
they are all indigenous peoples.I wanted to look at what is the
system of witch hunts are harmful practices like tiger
spirits clan which is a serpent kind of thing which is suppose
(02:20):
captain rich persons houses notional notional serpent not
real serpent. So this is the study that I did
the in the 8 states of India andthese states include let me go
by alphabetically Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Manipur,
(02:40):
Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland, Sikkim, Tripura these are the 8
states. So if you look at the map that
you can find out that they are really in the northeastern part
of India. There is a diversity of culture
in these states. They are different indigenous
people in India. They are called tribes
officially, but I like to call the word indigenous.
(03:02):
I don't like the word tribe. And Meghana is matrilineal and
the other states are in pockets.There have been matrilinee but
otherwise they have shifted to battery locality.
That is one aspect of diversity.2nd aspect of diversity is
different culture. A lot of them but lot of them
(03:26):
are Christians. So Christianity binds them.
Some have of course are Hindus, some are the nature worshippers.
But majority of them would fall into the category of Christians.
They speak different languages. They have different cultural
system. However, two things are very
common in these states besides being geographically kind of
(03:50):
located area in the northeastern.
What is that the Conservation ofNature, whether it is water,
trees, forest in particular and so they like to conserve.
And 2nd is the devaluation of women even in matrilineal
Society of Meghalaya which we spoke a little bit earlier that
(04:13):
in Meghalaya it is the land and lineage belongs to women.
So that is why I call them the matrilineal society.
But decision making is in the hands of men.
So there is a patriarchal systemwithin the matrilineal system.
So I call it kind of devaluationof women at various layers.
(04:38):
So these are the common features.
Another common feature is tremendous kind of myths are
going around and they in turn create some adverse aspect of
the cultural system. Devaluation of women itself is a
kind of cultural aspect in my analysis and that's why I
selected these states. Thank you.
(05:00):
Since we're talking about witch hunting and witch branding, can
you refresh our memories on how a witch is defined in
northeastern India? A woman or a man who causes harm
to others. But I think 96% less than 5% are
(05:23):
men. So largely it is the women who
cause harm to others. Harm in the sense of causing
illness, causing death, causing bad harvest, causing natural
disasters. A woman is considered
responsible for her acts during the night or they say the
capsule definition is which causes harms the society.
(05:48):
And interestingly they do harm only to their own community, not
in general. So if I go there as a kind of
non indigenous non community person then I won't be affected
by it. Even a indigenous person from
other state or from other tribe is not affected by it, so that
causes harm to others within their own community.
(06:12):
Today we're going to talk about gender, culture and capital
witch hunts and ritual attacks across NE India.
Why was it important to write this right now?
But I have worked for nearly 30 years on the subject of witch
hunts. It started with one state, which
is called Jharkhand in the central part of India.
(06:36):
Now I wanted to look one of the primary objective was to look at
the northeastern region of India, which is indigenous.
The second is that they are economically better off than the
rest of not the rest of India, but the rest of indigenous
states in India. Indigenous peoples in India,
they are in terms of whether we call it literacy or education,
(07:01):
they are mostly educated. This education has been provided
to them by Christian missionaries.
They speak, most of them speak not Hindi, which is the
considered official language in India or national language of
India. So for this reason, I wanted to
see this kind of cluster of indigenous people, whether they
(07:21):
have the witch hunts or not. Because modernity, whether it is
the modern, I mean what by all factors, by economic status, by
knowledge in terms of increased knowledge through English
language, through English language largely whether they
have gained anything and whetherthe big practice has, whether it
(07:43):
exists there or whether if it exists in what form it exists or
it doesn't exist. That is also I wanted to see
whether the big system is part of the societies which are not
exposed to modernity. That was my purpose to and study
that. And a lot of this modernity that
(08:05):
you wrote about in this important work has to do with
the development of capitalist systems.
How have those systems helped tointroduce this patriarchy into
these communities? I find that responsive and two
factors largely 1 is the cultural roots within the
(08:29):
indigenous society for which people are very defensive.
Anyway, I come on that later. So cultural roots I wanted to
see culture and belief system was one thing that I wanted to
look at from these states. Second was also which is you say
modernity, whether modernity in terms of these factors,
education, economic development,all this whether patriarchy has
(08:54):
decreased or increased. And my analysis was that these
cultural roots which were there,they have already that the base
was there and patriarchy gave a push.
Not a push, but a great push in terms of making it the kind of
coming in a very bad form, bringing a lot of brutality, a
(09:17):
lot of discrimination, a lot of devaluation of women.
So which were earlier used to belittle bit kind of there was a
bit bit of layer. It became a full blown kind of
thing. When did this push, this big
push happen? What era?
How long ago? I cannot say market forces were
(09:41):
not there 50 years ago, but I can.
I looked at only the history of the 70 years since the India got
freed from the colonial rule of the British.
And earlier they were very kind of warring tribes.
In Nagaland, for example, the villages would attack each other
(10:01):
in order to take resources, establish their own control on
people, women and men and own resources.
So this kind of warring factionswere there earlier British did.
The British colonial system brought them in the formation of
the bigger groups and then subsequently they were created
(10:24):
States and then they became partof the India.
So India it is our almost 70 years 1947.
So I looked at what kind of changes has happened in the one
is the kind of joining the Indian Union and 2nd is with
Indian Union the education and the other kind of things started
(10:44):
happening. They were happening earlier also
the missionaries came not duringthe British colonial period, but
this the other kind of push in terms of infrastructure, roads,
control of militancy, both of among these states.
They were fighting against each other, but they were also
(11:05):
fighting the Indian control, Indian government control.
When I say Indian kind of systemthat I mean central Government
of India. This is how the historically I
looked at that not periodically so much somewhere something
developed somewhere something developed, but I steady
development in three areas in terms of the infrastructure,
(11:27):
roads, electricity, water supplythough limited and uneven, but
there is a steady increase. Second steady increase is really
in terms of the making part of them, controlling them,
including Hinduizing them. Earlier they were Christianized,
now the afford making them as a kind of Hindu part of the Hindu
(11:52):
India and that is the main kind of thing, the patriarchal
development. Women behave like there is a lot
of patriarchy in Hinduism and there was a Christian version of
patriarchy which was introduced earlier.
Now another aspect of the patriarchy was introduced which
is based comes from the Hindu scriptures, Hindus and they call
(12:15):
it Hindu civilization. But I don't know when you
devalue women, what kind of civilization is that?
So that was also used. Yeah.
And what are the implications ofthese developments in the
devaluation of women? One in terms of implication is
(12:35):
that little mobility is affected.
Women's mobility going to feel going to still it is so much
better than rest of India. There is no further system,
further means veiling of the face that is the OR mobility
control. So Parda system was never there
but now one has to say oh it is nighttime, we will not go.
(12:58):
So nighttime means what? That means that they are likely
to be attacked with the exception of metrilineal
Meghalaya which is bit different.
So that is that is one implication.
Second implication is that control which women had in their
hands, they were come and for example in Nagaland women were
the village heads and when they got married husband was supposed
(13:23):
to help them in administration. But now the husband has become
the nokma that means the villagehead and woman has become a
helper. Even his officially his helper
would be men but the men are just cooking and cleaning and
all this kind of domestic work. Domestic duty is a rearing of
(13:46):
children. So it is the like in rest of
India. It happens in the rural India.
This is what is being has been introduced.
So this is a very serious implication in terms of steady
and full blown patriarchy that is there violence against women
within that domestic sphere is very much and also the safety
(14:09):
and security in public spaces, lack of that and I call it as a
part of that. When you are attacked, you are
not attacked by the animal, we are attacked by the human
beings. So when safety and security is
being talked, that itself shows that women are not safe in terms
of walking around. So this is 1 implication. 2nd
(14:31):
implication is that which is onebetter part that women, young
women in particular after their school education or college
education they are leaving for work outside their region Delhi,
Bombay, other cities they will be full of Indiana 2 professions
1 is the sales and other is the beautician and they are good
(14:56):
managers and some are getting a kind of semi nursing jobs also
not not nurses in the medical system but in the beauty place
they would be doing the work helping I mean helpers but with
good knowledge and they are considered very honest working
hard working thus who they are hired first and since the middle
(15:20):
class get attacked because of their ability to handle things
and not fool around with the work time and better manage
things. So this is, I don't know good
aspect or bad aspect, but women's mobility outside women's
migration within the country hasincreased and they don't want to
(15:43):
go back also. And they say I don't know how it
is going to lead in another 10 years.
These are women who have boyfriends because self
arrangement system is there backhome and but they said that he's
not doing anything. What's the point of going there?
So by and large, young men are staying behind and they have not
(16:04):
taken this advantage of this guygetting job either within their
region or outside the region while women are doing that.
So modernity is malcontents. That is one thing that is
malcontents in terms of patriarchy.
But mobility is 1 aspect which is good.
(16:26):
These women live together, they feel safer in terms of their own
environment because they are working, they have some
independence, financial independence, so they are very
happy about that. So it's creating a new social
culture for these women who are able to go do some work.
(16:49):
Yeah, precisely. So it is a new culture.
And even when they go during Christmas time, they go for a
month or 20 days, three weeks toone month to 30 days.
And in these kind of situations,they take a lot of money, a lot
of gifts to their families and also provide some money the on a
regular basis. So they are supporting their
(17:09):
family. So women in terms of no longer
as not as breadwinners but a kind of participants in the
breadwinning situation these young women are entering and
probably that's why they are notgoing for any matrimonial
alliance. But strangely they don't like
these men. Young people from India, I have
(17:32):
not come across anyone who has aboyfriend, young girl kind of in
the society from North India where I live.
And this either they have it in back home, which they need maybe
probably I assume they meet because I once in a while I
asked them from where they are and whether they have the
(17:52):
boyfriends or whether they support their family.
And they all say they support their family and they have a
boyfriend at home back home. And but nobody is going around
with the kind of Indian, Indian men because they find them
probably more mature than their own men.
In these communities in Northeast India, what are the
(18:17):
challenges that are being faced by women and activists trying to
create safe spaces for women andchallenge harmful practices like
witch hunting? Strangely, witch hunting is
still seen as part of their cultural systems that they lot
of them, they believe so that itis the part of their indigenous
(18:42):
culture and it is not being attacked even from women who are
outside, outside that region. They also believe that yes,
there are witches. And one question that I've been
asking on a ad hoc basis, when you are in Delhi, because I live
near Delhi, I said why don't youadd Delhi?
Why the wish does not affect you?
(19:03):
Do you think any person affectedby which they said no, this is
not really, this is only in our region but being this practice
of our region is considered as the part of indigenity.
So there is a lot of when you are fighting for your cultural
system against a Indian state which is creating a
(19:25):
Hinduizations or system Hinduised system, then you find
that to save their system lot ofills you manage.
This is the kind of diaspora situation that they diasporas I
find generally more conservativethan the back home societies.
They have gone somewhere, they have the same cultural system.
(19:46):
They are not changing because all their efforts go in
conserving their own culture. And I find the same thing in
Northeast women who are working here.
So the which system as a challenge is not taken by the
women. But there are some journalists,
there are some university professors in this region,
(20:07):
particularly in Meghalaya and Nagaland and Tripara.
There is the acceptance that this is not a good practice.
This is, they call it, part of superstition.
They should get rid of this. This is a part of the their
cultures won't be get affected by this.
I mean they will be culturally strong, they will be more good
(20:30):
modern if they get rid of this system.
So there is a bit of shyness about talking about this.
There is a bit of also resistance to talk about that
because they think that you are pinning down on something as
such you they are considered thequote again backward people and
you are by discussing this that you are thinking that they are
(20:52):
really backward. And so that is the defense comes
and that is happening and this defensive attitude makes them
not discuss openly about that this system needs to be changed.
Except in the few universities and I think Assam, there is a
student movement which took up this question.
(21:13):
Then there are some other professors and one journalist in
Shillong Times that who is the editor of the Shillong Time.
You can count them on fingers. How many people are there who
are openly talking against the system?
You discuss briefly how the capitalist development devalued
(21:35):
women. What is the connection there to
which branding? How did that come out of the
development? I interviewed about 171 total
people from all these states. Maybe in total would be 20 men
(21:56):
and rest of 151 would be the women That is them.
What I find that lot of cases, uh, when go to the what are the
factors that denounce them as witches?
They are related to the questionof land rights or property
rights. So women, when women assert
(22:16):
their right to own property or to have their share in the
housing or in the agricultural land, they are denounced as
witches. And they are denounced by the
close relatives who would be thebut who would take, who would be
next in line to succeed? So it would be the husband's
(22:39):
brother's son, the nephew, the nephews are there though who
will claim this property. So this breed for money that at
any cost you have to get some money even at the kind of
eliminating some people or killing some people.
That is one thing that is that says the capitalist system.
(22:59):
Second is this kind of modernitywhich comes as a part of the
capitalist system has not reallyimproved women's position.
So there is, I mean in terms of improving position means that
they are not in the decision making.
They are still considered dependent on men with the
exception of Meghalaya. They are also they are not
(23:19):
decision making applies, but they are considered as the head
of the household. So the head of the household is
still men decision making withinthe house, within the community
or overall. In the Regional Council, they
have the Regional Council. Latest states make a Regional
Council also, all men are there and women is not even allowed to
(23:41):
enter that place. So the capitalism which treats
women as the housewife and men as the breadwinner, this is the
basic kind of thing. Women don't have the father that
of the economist or the capitalist economics which is
there. It seems that men are the
superior beings in terms of analysis, in terms of scientific
(24:03):
knowledge and women are just to do the brown work that is the
doing agriculture, doing housework.
So women's shaping of women in this kind of category, that is
how the capitalism has affected them within home, outside home
and including leading to internalization of this role.
(24:25):
Women have also started believing that they are not as
as good a person or as intelligent as men are, or they
are not as good managers as men are.
This kind of internalization is very bad for the system.
When you internalize or your inferiority, that means that is
(24:49):
very difficult to change rather than somebody imposes on you.
So it is being imposed, it is being internalized and that is
how the, I call it, the development of patriarchal
forces. But patriarchy has to have this
component that how women are made as subordinates and who are
the superordinates. Yes.
(25:10):
And one form that this internalization takes or one
aspect of it that you talk abouthas to do with gender based
violence and whether women, I know you analyzed some surveys
about whether women believe thatmen are within their rights to
(25:30):
discipline with violence. Is that something that's changed
because of the development or was that something that was
present before development? I said earlier and I find it
that I do find this root in the cultural system that men are
(25:53):
superior beings, but not in terms of very stark and very
clear terms, clarity and acceptance by women.
Total acceptance by women with the exception of you is this is
this has happened. So this is the part I call it
the internalization, which is very dangerous when the person
(26:14):
tend to justify this happens with the in dealing with the
raised question, dealing with the caste system.
When a person thinks that, OK, Iam not as good as a Brahman.
I mean, a person would be I'm not as good as a white person or
I'm not good as a as being a man, then probably this is the
(26:37):
worst aspect that you can see. That means you have there is an
enemy within, realize that enemywithin and to fight against that
enemy, you have to unlearn so much there.
A lot of unlearning is required and probably when you see others
like this, then peer group kind of pressure, then you find that
(26:58):
others are also like that. So women are kind of happening
in this. But there is a silver lining in
this. When I say majority of the
people, a great majority of the women are like that.
There are women who are questioning this either either
vocally or in action. In action also they may not sit
down and articulate this, but what is this is happening?
(27:21):
Their migration outside that region and working in Delhi.
And although they find Delhi as a kind of they are not in the
mainstream of society. They still look for their peer
groups, is still their friendship circles, but the
social groups. But at the same time they find
themselves freer to have financial independence, have
(27:44):
decide about their own life, notto marry, not to have children.
It is by certain age these kind of pressures are over.
And they also find little bit comfort in living because living
in forest can be good in them. But when you have to do the
infrastructure is not enough, then probably you find that
(28:06):
those it's a difficult to rain. So they find that this terrain
is better with few precautions. Delhi terrain is better than it.
Rain is securement. The rain is there.
When you planned your research and then you began interviewing
and collecting data, was there anything that surprised you or
(28:32):
did you find what you thought you were going to find?
Yes, a lot of surprises were there.
I first thing, I went there withthe idea that it will be a very
modern society. I was initially reluctant to
take it that there won't be any kind of practice of witch hunts.
But then when I learn, I have some friends in the universities
(28:56):
and journalism and this circle and they told me it is there.
So I wanted to explore that itself was a surprise when I
came to know this practice. Second thing surprises me that
there were besides which and there were additional kind of
besides which branding. I will say there were additional
(29:19):
factors that surprised me. For example, there is a system
of tiger that man becomes a tiger in the night, one man and
there is a circle of these tigers.
So 1 village might have 2-3 tigers.
They meet there themselves in the night.
(29:39):
They go and loot the villages correct resources.
And there is no no police report, nothing like that.
Because they are supposed to be the tigers.
They are not they the tiger spirit, they call them tiger
spirit. Tiger spirit has entered their
body. So they behave like tiger.
(29:59):
They will eat raw meat, they sometimes they will crave even
for killing the human beings andsome remote part.
And there was what surprised me,there were also some tiger
women. So I met a tiger woman and I
asked her what do you think? What made you a tiger?
Why did they call you a tiger woman?
(30:20):
And they said when she was in the school she could not focus.
Her focus, her attention was very short lived and she would
look at like this and sometime like this then you are not
paying enough attention or you're distracted.
Then probably you start looking around the kind of thing not
focused on that your eyes not stuck at the teacher.
(30:42):
And they thought that because she roams around in the night as
a tiger. So she's a tiger woman.
She studied, she worked in within the government and when
she I met her, she's almost retiring age that kind of she
was 58, very articulate, very good looking woman.
But at the same time they calledher a tiger woman.
(31:03):
And before that I was given a description that how a tiger man
or a woman looks, that big eyes,rolling eyes, they can't see you
straight in the eyes. So this was they, they are very
sleepy in the during the day because they have not slept in
the night. They are roaming around in the
(31:24):
forest. So this was the myth that and I
said how many, how many tiger men would be in this village?
And I was told by a retired police officer but a very high
ranked director general of the police that that Indian police
force in that state is full of these tigers.
(31:45):
So they are considered as efficient that you can track the
criminals in the night who are part of this.
So if you are a tiger man, you won't feel sleepy in the night.
So this surprised me. Second thing that surprised me
also was the question of how do you poison food by looking at
that. So in Sikkim for example, tiger
(32:06):
man were there in Nagalip and also part in bit of other state
also adjoining in Sikkim there was a practice of Ning ning.
Ning Ning Ning is the food poisoning, but this food
poisoning can be that you eat only in the safe restaurant.
So you can get food poisoning byif you eat by anywhere, by any
(32:31):
stranger. For example, I can eat some
sweets and then I had to eat first myself and then pick up
kind of thing then I would offerto others.
So this was also surprises me that food is not after this.
Of course, these young students,they became very friendly with
me and they related that how they were warned by mothers that
(32:51):
they could work with me but not take any offering.
They told me that offering by meor eat with in a restaurant with
me, but they were eating later but they shared themselves.
So this widespread thing about food poisoning, not because the
food can be polluted, but food can be poisoned and if a person
indulges in this a lot more poisoning other person, then a
(33:14):
Black Flag is put on that person's house.
And lot of them are lot of them are these women who are the food
poisoners. They cook and they serve and
they market kind of food. After processing him, that came
a big surprise to me. Third surprise came to me
burying alive people. That is the history I've read
(33:36):
about burning of women as which is in Europe, early modern
Europe. But this was almost like that
that a woman would be driven to a dry well and then she would
made to she would kind of pushedinto that well and want that
they will put a lot of mud so that she's covered and cover her
(34:00):
with that and women. Some women were also involved in
this actor. This is one act that surprised
me very act. This happened in the and two
weeks before I was there. Of course then it matter was
reported to the police and the police came and they removed the
dead body. And when I went to the police
station because this officer wasthere and I wanted to see his
(34:23):
reaction and he said well this is part of their system.
We have to have the penal measures.
But it is they won't. They are not even punished for
the murders. In this case.
Lot of the mob is there when they are done this and that.
The mob is led by the close relatives.
In this case, it was the husband's younger brother whose
(34:45):
son was ill for 15 days, fever and young child.
I mean he was three-year old andhe died and as a result was that
they thought that she has cast the spell.
So she was pushed to the well and after that all the ritual
ceremony was there. Even she, this woman who was
(35:05):
killed like this, she has a eight-year old son and he was
wearing a mourning dress, white and some kind of traditional
dress. I was so amazed that and
everyone was talking coolly about that, that of course this
has to be, it has to be done because she was a witch.
If you don't kill her, then she would kill others.
(35:29):
So this is for your own safety. You are killing them.
So this logic also surprised me.It repeatedly surprised me kind
of thing that even in this modern kind of society, these
things are accepted so easily. So these surprises came to me,
this thing. And then women also believe.
(35:51):
Why women won't believe Women also would believe in this.
When she was pushed to the kind of well there were couple of
women in that and there were about 8 men and three women.
So that is the this kind of woman pushing another woman and
then this is seeking the acceptability that you have to
(36:13):
be part of that system. Otherwise they think that if you
are not participating, you mightbe sympathetic to to the witch
and they might have some witch element in yourself.
That's why you are protecting her.
So this is part of the internalization I am talking
about, but creating as a kind ofpressure group pressure within
(36:33):
yourself, which you have internalized.
One more surprise I was because I am from India and Delhi.
So that is what the people from Delhi are always a suspect.
They think you are part of the central government and the
Government of India has controlled some areas,
particularly Netherland with thekind of militant forces because
(36:56):
there has been a militancy goingon.
They want their own society, they want separation from India,
that complex kind of phenomenon.So in this I was allowed that.
In this I was told that you cannot, you cannot go to the
village because you are from Delhi.
So I said, but I want to meet a tiger man because the tiger man
(37:18):
was there who was willing to talk.
So he said you can go there, they won't attack you, but they
won't talk to you. They would meet you neither.
You can enter the village. You can be on the outer skirts
of the village. So this problem was solved by my
friend who's in not A and who teaches English in the
Department of English in Nagaland University.
(37:40):
And she said she would go and she will interview on my behalf
so that you cannot go to any village.
That is, that came as a surprise.
These are some surprises. Given how entrenched witch
hunting is in cultures and this skepticism towards outside
(38:05):
influences, what kind of changescan happen to go against to
challenge the witch hunting and the harmful practices How is
change going to happen I. Think change is going to happen
through rights movement. Rights movement of eminent
(38:28):
particular focused attention butpeople also rights of the
indigenous people as such but within that rights of the
indigenous women with attention to that.
That would be one thing which has very limited efforts that
have been made. Right now there are two forces
that are working to change the system.
One force is really the make thelaw.
(38:50):
But in this region there is no law against witch hunts except
in Assam which is at the border and Assam was second worst
affected state and also studentstook the movement.
So this is these are some welcome signs.
Besides Assam there is no state that has the law because they
thought this is a part of their indigenity.
(39:13):
Vichhans is a part of their indigenity.
Once you say that it's part of indigenity then you don't change
it. For example, after so many
years, maybe in the last 10 years, now the change is
happening in India with regard to the caste system is very bad.
Untouchability is so bad. But in rural situation is still
(39:34):
it is being practiced. I mean there is a law if you
call somebody untouchable then you would be really you can be
taken to court or you can be punished for that.
But this is the open kind of this change has happened that
openly you will not denounce as a witch, but everybody would
know about it. This is very strange kind of
(39:54):
thing. There would be a kind effect
that she cast her spells, she says.
But when that woman comes, they would try to shy away, they
would try to not associate with her and then she will know that
probably they are casting, they are treating me different.
So that means that I am in trouble.
Now this needs to be addressed their kind of through awareness
(40:17):
raising, through government programs, through.
Civil society programs and civilsociety problems are so
enormous. Civil society within these this
region has been struggling with their rights against rest of
Indians. OK, but not yet a cum has to
look at their own cultures. So this is the second kind of
(40:39):
thing. I am finding it difficult to
present this case. The witches study those people
who are working in indigenous area, they think it is something
which is which furthers the ideaor deepens the idea that they
are backward people, backward incourt.
So that's why they don't want tosay that.
(41:00):
But I strongly believe that. I strongly believe in feminist
theory of women's rights and this kind of brutal, brutal
killing and much worse than subtle discrimination and other
things. And this need to be stopped.
Can you tell us a little bit more about the feminist
movement? What's happening right now with
(41:23):
it? Feminist movement in India,
right? I think one of the things
feminist movement are strugglingfor their rights on following
factors. One is the whole question of
land rights. I also work on the land rights.
76% of the agriculturalist women, those who work cultivate
(41:44):
cultivators and those who work on land, they are, they are
women. It is the official statistics
I'm giving, not even data. But they are not recognized land
owners and they are not, therefore they are not
recognized as farmers. So whatever the farmers
development program is there, only a land owner can be a
farmer officially. But these women are land owners.
(42:07):
So what you have, you have the master and the worker in the
same house. Men are the masters because they
own land and housing and women are the workers because they
work on that. So it is not only housework, it
is the work. Agricultural work also is done
by women. So agriculture work has become
like household work, non recognition of that work.
(42:29):
That is one struggle. Second point of struggle is the
unpaid care work. There is a struggle that this
need to be recognized as worker.It's a global kind of situation.
But in India also there is a lotof large movement about that.
Unpaid care work is to be recognized as the work of the
women. How it needs to be compensated,
(42:50):
the need to be worked first. The recognition is needed
because it takes lot of work on the women.
So the other day, couple of daysago, there was a discussion in a
institute on proposal and I usedthe word that marriage and
motherhood penalty. And they said we can't say
(43:10):
motherhood penalty, this will the funders won't like that.
This is the industry, What if you call it the motherhood
penalty? So I said OK, call it
implication. So this motherhood and marriage,
they are still come with all theills, with all the dowry murders
and other things, they are stillconsidered as the aim of women
(43:33):
that the good woman has to get married, she has to produce
children. In urban area, things are little
different but there, there is implicit kind of acceptance even
in cities and in urban areas. But rural area is entrenched
with that. So fundest movement is attacking
that. Third thing is political, right.
(43:55):
So we have very little representation of women in the
upper, in the parliament, in state assemblies and that is
also being discussed. Dubai women are not there in
politics. What should be done to include
their voice theorem? We have made changes at the
grassroots level, 33% compulsoryrepresentation of women and of
(44:19):
course there are some problems the men would go in women's
place, particularly if a woman is not articulate and not this.
So that is also being discussed.So these are some three economic
cultures are in culture only thecaste system is very highly
questioned category. That is why women by men.
(44:40):
So the intersectionality of gender and caste.
Some people are working on that.Even patriarchy is seen as the
Brahminical patriarchy by some. That is only among the Brahmins
has promoted the Brahmins are the uppermost caste.
I believe the patriarchy is muchmore widespread than only among
Brahmins. But Brahmins were the originator
(45:01):
purity, The Who talked of purityand pollution, let women get
polluted during menstruation period, during childbirth and
all the so on and so forth. Feminist movement is quite
vibrant in India. There on the one hand like same
thing in Pakistan. When the oppression is there
(45:23):
then the reaction is also very strong.
If you don't have the reaction is strong, then your voices are
lost. And violence against women, my
goodness, violence against womenhas become very brutal.
Earlier we read about rapes and other things.
Now we read gang rapes and murders in the most kind of
(45:47):
brutal form, because they destroy the evidence also after
that. So it is the rapes have become
gang rapes and brutal murders ofwomen in public places.
Once in a while you share the cases made more prominent but
this goes on kind of things. So when not only domestic
violence but it is the public places also are not safe
(46:11):
transports, roads, they are not safe places also.
So these are the 4-5 features onwhich feminist movement in India
is very strong. Of course, Government of India
talks about AG20 women LED development.
I'm I'm still debating what is women LED women president who is
(46:35):
from indigenous areas, indigenous women.
So our president, presi Prime Minister, we don't have American
system. They are the president is
everything. We have the Prime Minister that
system, but nevertheless the president is the head of the
state. So a woman is the head of the
state. Delhi yesterday got elected.
(46:56):
The chief minister of Delhi state is a woman.
So these are the things that attempt is being made to have
the token tokenization of women in order to show that we are
doing better. So India's number is very, very
low in terms of the gender baseddiscrimination.
So they are trying to improve their situation.
(47:16):
And before you go, could you tell us about the International
Alliance to End Witch Hunts? Oh, that about three years ago I
set up this international alliance to end witch hunts.
Idea was that how to spread thisknowledge about the witch
question and how we do you enlarge kind of things.
(47:38):
So we have meeting about four times a year.
Initially it was twice a year where we invite people from
Pacific, from Africa in particular because Africa, it is
quite widespread and also some Europeans and from the US you
are there and these are the somenetworks that kind of thing.
(48:01):
And there are 15 members who arethe core group, people with whom
initially the meeting was set up.
Now the membership which is freekind of thing, it is there about
200 people. So we have this meeting
regularly and we discussed not only in question of India, we
(48:21):
also discussed the what has happened in Africa, what happens
early modern Europe. So looking at the history also
sometime I would like of course you and Josh also to talk about
your situation. That is that would be really
good. I after I come back this time it
is a bit delayed. So I was thinking after this
(48:41):
Commission on the status of women in New York meeting and
then we come back and what happened there and how the which
question is seen or not seen. It is in Europe and North
America with the exception people like you, it is seen as
if it is, it is a part of the ancient system and it's
disappeared. And so there is a limited
(49:05):
interest except among some scholars.
But Asia and more so in Africa, Africa there is a lot of now
research that is happening in the last five years, Tanzania,
Ghana, South Africa, I mean there are studies are coming on
the discussion and Pacific also is bad but not so many studies
(49:28):
on Pacific as you find in Africa.
In Asia also some people are interested but in India in
particular, but very limited. I don't see any other country of
Asia that that has addressed this issue except in China where
the soon after liberation they have outlawed the veg question
(49:48):
and they have made a cluster of the villages because they were
not accepted in the society and there was violence.
So they're outcasting of these people.
But in the government jobs thereare no kind of discrimination,
but outside they are called as the veg village.
We're so glad you joined us for today's important episode with
(50:08):
Doctor Govan Kilker. Sarah, do you have any
announcements this week? Yes, I do Listeners, you can
help by signing the petition forthe Accused Witches of Maryland
to show your support for their exoneration, please go to
change.org/MD Witch Trials. Change.org/MD witch Trials.
(50:37):
Anything else we need to cover? Yes, listeners, we have an
important fundraiser this June. We want to go to the Magic and
Witchcraft Conference, and whilewe are there, we've been invited
to create a podcast episode in historic York, England.
But we need your help to get there.
You can donate at the link in the show notes.
(51:01):
Thank you so much. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
But there is a silver lining in this.
There are women who are questioning this, either vocally
or in action. Welcome back to Witch Hunt
Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
And I'm Sarah Jack. We're continuing our exploration
of contemporary witch hunting practices around the world with
our returning guest, Doctor Govan Gelpert.
(00:22):
In an earlier episode that you need to listen to, she shared
valuable insights into the experiences of women in India.
Today, she's discussing her recent research in field work
examining witch hunts and ritualattacks across 8 northeastern
states of India. Doctor Kelker's research reveals
how patriarchal systems have intensified within these
(00:44):
communities, leading to the devaluation of women and
perpetuating harmful practices like witch branding.
Her work uncovers surprising connections between economic
development, cultural preservation and gender based
violence. You'll learn how capitalism has
transformed gender dynamics in these regions, about the
(01:05):
challenges facing activists working to create safer spaces
for women. And how feminist movements might
address witchcraft accusations while respecting indigenous
rights and cultural autonomy. It's so good to have you back.
Thank you for all that you taught us on your first visit.
That conversation was a startingpoint for us as a podcast to
(01:34):
look at India and to start looking at the different
experiences happening there. So we really appreciate what you
taught us on that episode, and we're so glad to have you here
today to talk about your recent book.
Can you please introduce yourself and tell us about your
recent work? Well my name is Govind Kelkar
(01:56):
and last year I completed a study of eight northeastern
state in India. So these states of North India
they are all indigenous peoples.I wanted to look at what is the
system of witch hunts are harmful practices like tiger
spirits clan which is a serpent kind of thing which is suppose
(02:20):
captain rich persons houses notional notional serpent not
real serpent. So this is the study that I did
the in the 8 states of India andthese states include let me go
by alphabetically Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Manipur,
(02:40):
Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland, Sikkim, Tripura these are the 8
states. So if you look at the map that
you can find out that they are really in the northeastern part
of India. There is a diversity of culture
in these states. They are different indigenous
people in India. They are called tribes
officially, but I like to call the word indigenous.
(03:02):
I don't like the word tribe. And Meghana is matrilineal and
the other states are in pockets.There have been matrilinee but
otherwise they have shifted to battery locality.
That is one aspect of diversity.2nd aspect of diversity is
different culture. A lot of them but lot of them
(03:26):
are Christians. So Christianity binds them.
Some have of course are Hindus, some are the nature worshippers.
But majority of them would fall into the category of Christians.
They speak different languages. They have different cultural
system. However, two things are very
common in these states besides being geographically kind of
(03:50):
located area in the northeastern.
What is that the Conservation ofNature, whether it is water,
trees, forest in particular and so they like to conserve.
And 2nd is the devaluation of women even in matrilineal
Society of Meghalaya which we spoke a little bit earlier that
(04:13):
in Meghalaya it is the land and lineage belongs to women.
So that is why I call them the matrilineal society.
But decision making is in the hands of men.
So there is a patriarchal systemwithin the matrilineal system.
So I call it kind of devaluationof women at various layers.
(04:38):
So these are the common features.
Another common feature is tremendous kind of myths are
going around and they in turn create some adverse aspect of
the cultural system. Devaluation of women itself is a
kind of cultural aspect in my analysis and that's why I
selected these states. Thank you.
(05:00):
Since we're talking about witch hunting and witch branding, can
you refresh our memories on how a witch is defined in
northeastern India? A woman or a man who causes harm
to others. But I think 96% less than 5% are
(05:23):
men. So largely it is the women who
cause harm to others. Harm in the sense of causing
illness, causing death, causing bad harvest, causing natural
disasters. A woman is considered
responsible for her acts during the night or they say the
capsule definition is which causes harms the society.
(05:48):
And interestingly they do harm only to their own community, not
in general. So if I go there as a kind of
non indigenous non community person then I won't be affected
by it. Even a indigenous person from
other state or from other tribe is not affected by it, so that
causes harm to others within their own community.
(06:12):
Today we're going to talk about gender, culture and capital
witch hunts and ritual attacks across NE India.
Why was it important to write this right now?
But I have worked for nearly 30 years on the subject of witch
hunts. It started with one state, which
is called Jharkhand in the central part of India.
(06:36):
Now I wanted to look one of the primary objective was to look at
the northeastern region of India, which is indigenous.
The second is that they are economically better off than the
rest of not the rest of India, but the rest of indigenous
states in India. Indigenous peoples in India,
they are in terms of whether we call it literacy or education,
(07:01):
they are mostly educated. This education has been provided
to them by Christian missionaries.
They speak, most of them speak not Hindi, which is the
considered official language in India or national language of
India. So for this reason, I wanted to
see this kind of cluster of indigenous people, whether they
(07:21):
have the witch hunts or not. Because modernity, whether it is
the modern, I mean what by all factors, by economic status, by
knowledge in terms of increased knowledge through English
language, through English language largely whether they
have gained anything and whetherthe big practice has, whether it
(07:43):
exists there or whether if it exists in what form it exists or
it doesn't exist. That is also I wanted to see
whether the big system is part of the societies which are not
exposed to modernity. That was my purpose to and study
that. And a lot of this modernity that
(08:05):
you wrote about in this important work has to do with
the development of capitalist systems.
How have those systems helped tointroduce this patriarchy into
these communities? I find that responsive and two
factors largely 1 is the cultural roots within the
(08:29):
indigenous society for which people are very defensive.
Anyway, I come on that later. So cultural roots I wanted to
see culture and belief system was one thing that I wanted to
look at from these states. Second was also which is you say
modernity, whether modernity in terms of these factors,
education, economic development,all this whether patriarchy has
(08:54):
decreased or increased. And my analysis was that these
cultural roots which were there,they have already that the base
was there and patriarchy gave a push.
Not a push, but a great push in terms of making it the kind of
coming in a very bad form, bringing a lot of brutality, a
(09:17):
lot of discrimination, a lot of devaluation of women.
So which were earlier used to belittle bit kind of there was a
bit bit of layer. It became a full blown kind of
thing. When did this push, this big
push happen? What era?
How long ago? I cannot say market forces were
(09:41):
not there 50 years ago, but I can.
I looked at only the history of the 70 years since the India got
freed from the colonial rule of the British.
And earlier they were very kind of warring tribes.
In Nagaland, for example, the villages would attack each other
(10:01):
in order to take resources, establish their own control on
people, women and men and own resources.
So this kind of warring factionswere there earlier British did.
The British colonial system brought them in the formation of
the bigger groups and then subsequently they were created
(10:24):
States and then they became partof the India.
So India it is our almost 70 years 1947.
So I looked at what kind of changes has happened in the one
is the kind of joining the Indian Union and 2nd is with
Indian Union the education and the other kind of things started
(10:44):
happening. They were happening earlier also
the missionaries came not duringthe British colonial period, but
this the other kind of push in terms of infrastructure, roads,
control of militancy, both of among these states.
They were fighting against each other, but they were also
(11:05):
fighting the Indian control, Indian government control.
When I say Indian kind of systemthat I mean central Government
of India. This is how the historically I
looked at that not periodically so much somewhere something
developed somewhere something developed, but I steady
development in three areas in terms of the infrastructure,
(11:27):
roads, electricity, water supplythough limited and uneven, but
there is a steady increase. Second steady increase is really
in terms of the making part of them, controlling them,
including Hinduizing them. Earlier they were Christianized,
now the afford making them as a kind of Hindu part of the Hindu
(11:52):
India and that is the main kind of thing, the patriarchal
development. Women behave like there is a lot
of patriarchy in Hinduism and there was a Christian version of
patriarchy which was introduced earlier.
Now another aspect of the patriarchy was introduced which
is based comes from the Hindu scriptures, Hindus and they call
(12:15):
it Hindu civilization. But I don't know when you
devalue women, what kind of civilization is that?
So that was also used. Yeah.
And what are the implications ofthese developments in the
devaluation of women? One in terms of implication is
(12:35):
that little mobility is affected.
Women's mobility going to feel going to still it is so much
better than rest of India. There is no further system,
further means veiling of the face that is the OR mobility
control. So Parda system was never there
but now one has to say oh it is nighttime, we will not go.
(12:58):
So nighttime means what? That means that they are likely
to be attacked with the exception of metrilineal
Meghalaya which is bit different.
So that is that is one implication.
Second implication is that control which women had in their
hands, they were come and for example in Nagaland women were
the village heads and when they got married husband was supposed
(13:23):
to help them in administration. But now the husband has become
the nokma that means the villagehead and woman has become a
helper. Even his officially his helper
would be men but the men are just cooking and cleaning and
all this kind of domestic work. Domestic duty is a rearing of
(13:46):
children. So it is the like in rest of
India. It happens in the rural India.
This is what is being has been introduced.
So this is a very serious implication in terms of steady
and full blown patriarchy that is there violence against women
within that domestic sphere is very much and also the safety
(14:09):
and security in public spaces, lack of that and I call it as a
part of that. When you are attacked, you are
not attacked by the animal, we are attacked by the human
beings. So when safety and security is
being talked, that itself shows that women are not safe in terms
of walking around. So this is 1 implication. 2nd
(14:31):
implication is that which is onebetter part that women, young
women in particular after their school education or college
education they are leaving for work outside their region Delhi,
Bombay, other cities they will be full of Indiana 2 professions
1 is the sales and other is the beautician and they are good
(14:56):
managers and some are getting a kind of semi nursing jobs also
not not nurses in the medical system but in the beauty place
they would be doing the work helping I mean helpers but with
good knowledge and they are considered very honest working
hard working thus who they are hired first and since the middle
(15:20):
class get attacked because of their ability to handle things
and not fool around with the work time and better manage
things. So this is, I don't know good
aspect or bad aspect, but women's mobility outside women's
migration within the country hasincreased and they don't want to
(15:43):
go back also. And they say I don't know how it
is going to lead in another 10 years.
These are women who have boyfriends because self
arrangement system is there backhome and but they said that he's
not doing anything. What's the point of going there?
So by and large, young men are staying behind and they have not
(16:04):
taken this advantage of this guygetting job either within their
region or outside the region while women are doing that.
So modernity is malcontents. That is one thing that is
malcontents in terms of patriarchy.
But mobility is 1 aspect which is good.
(16:26):
These women live together, they feel safer in terms of their own
environment because they are working, they have some
independence, financial independence, so they are very
happy about that. So it's creating a new social
culture for these women who are able to go do some work.
(16:49):
Yeah, precisely. So it is a new culture.
And even when they go during Christmas time, they go for a
month or 20 days, three weeks toone month to 30 days.
And in these kind of situations,they take a lot of money, a lot
of gifts to their families and also provide some money the on a
regular basis. So they are supporting their
(17:09):
family. So women in terms of no longer
as not as breadwinners but a kind of participants in the
breadwinning situation these young women are entering and
probably that's why they are notgoing for any matrimonial
alliance. But strangely they don't like
these men. Young people from India, I have
(17:32):
not come across anyone who has aboyfriend, young girl kind of in
the society from North India where I live.
And this either they have it in back home, which they need maybe
probably I assume they meet because I once in a while I
asked them from where they are and whether they have the
(17:52):
boyfriends or whether they support their family.
And they all say they support their family and they have a
boyfriend at home back home. And but nobody is going around
with the kind of Indian, Indian men because they find them
probably more mature than their own men.
In these communities in Northeast India, what are the
(18:17):
challenges that are being faced by women and activists trying to
create safe spaces for women andchallenge harmful practices like
witch hunting? Strangely, witch hunting is
still seen as part of their cultural systems that they lot
of them, they believe so that itis the part of their indigenous
(18:42):
culture and it is not being attacked even from women who are
outside, outside that region. They also believe that yes,
there are witches. And one question that I've been
asking on a ad hoc basis, when you are in Delhi, because I live
near Delhi, I said why don't youadd Delhi?
Why the wish does not affect you?
(19:03):
Do you think any person affectedby which they said no, this is
not really, this is only in our region but being this practice
of our region is considered as the part of indigenity.
So there is a lot of when you are fighting for your cultural
system against a Indian state which is creating a
(19:25):
Hinduizations or system Hinduised system, then you find
that to save their system lot ofills you manage.
This is the kind of diaspora situation that they diasporas I
find generally more conservativethan the back home societies.
They have gone somewhere, they have the same cultural system.
(19:46):
They are not changing because all their efforts go in
conserving their own culture. And I find the same thing in
Northeast women who are working here.
So the which system as a challenge is not taken by the
women. But there are some journalists,
there are some university professors in this region,
(20:07):
particularly in Meghalaya and Nagaland and Tripara.
There is the acceptance that this is not a good practice.
This is, they call it, part of superstition.
They should get rid of this. This is a part of the their
cultures won't be get affected by this.
I mean they will be culturally strong, they will be more good
(20:30):
modern if they get rid of this system.
So there is a bit of shyness about talking about this.
There is a bit of also resistance to talk about that
because they think that you are pinning down on something as
such you they are considered thequote again backward people and
you are by discussing this that you are thinking that they are
(20:52):
really backward. And so that is the defense comes
and that is happening and this defensive attitude makes them
not discuss openly about that this system needs to be changed.
Except in the few universities and I think Assam, there is a
student movement which took up this question.
(21:13):
Then there are some other professors and one journalist in
Shillong Times that who is the editor of the Shillong Time.
You can count them on fingers. How many people are there who
are openly talking against the system?
You discuss briefly how the capitalist development devalued
(21:35):
women. What is the connection there to
which branding? How did that come out of the
development? I interviewed about 171 total
people from all these states. Maybe in total would be 20 men
(21:56):
and rest of 151 would be the women That is them.
What I find that lot of cases, uh, when go to the what are the
factors that denounce them as witches?
They are related to the questionof land rights or property
rights. So women, when women assert
(22:16):
their right to own property or to have their share in the
housing or in the agricultural land, they are denounced as
witches. And they are denounced by the
close relatives who would be thebut who would take, who would be
next in line to succeed? So it would be the husband's
(22:39):
brother's son, the nephew, the nephews are there though who
will claim this property. So this breed for money that at
any cost you have to get some money even at the kind of
eliminating some people or killing some people.
That is one thing that is that says the capitalist system.
(22:59):
Second is this kind of modernitywhich comes as a part of the
capitalist system has not reallyimproved women's position.
So there is, I mean in terms of improving position means that
they are not in the decision making.
They are still considered dependent on men with the
exception of Meghalaya. They are also they are not
(23:19):
decision making applies, but they are considered as the head
of the household. So the head of the household is
still men decision making withinthe house, within the community
or overall. In the Regional Council, they
have the Regional Council. Latest states make a Regional
Council also, all men are there and women is not even allowed to
(23:41):
enter that place. So the capitalism which treats
women as the housewife and men as the breadwinner, this is the
basic kind of thing. Women don't have the father that
of the economist or the capitalist economics which is
there. It seems that men are the
superior beings in terms of analysis, in terms of scientific
(24:03):
knowledge and women are just to do the brown work that is the
doing agriculture, doing housework.
So women's shaping of women in this kind of category, that is
how the capitalism has affected them within home, outside home
and including leading to internalization of this role.
(24:25):
Women have also started believing that they are not as
as good a person or as intelligent as men are, or they
are not as good managers as men are.
This kind of internalization is very bad for the system.
When you internalize or your inferiority, that means that is
(24:49):
very difficult to change rather than somebody imposes on you.
So it is being imposed, it is being internalized and that is
how the, I call it, the development of patriarchal
forces. But patriarchy has to have this
component that how women are made as subordinates and who are
the superordinates. Yes.
(25:10):
And one form that this internalization takes or one
aspect of it that you talk abouthas to do with gender based
violence and whether women, I know you analyzed some surveys
about whether women believe thatmen are within their rights to
(25:30):
discipline with violence. Is that something that's changed
because of the development or was that something that was
present before development? I said earlier and I find it
that I do find this root in the cultural system that men are
(25:53):
superior beings, but not in terms of very stark and very
clear terms, clarity and acceptance by women.
Total acceptance by women with the exception of you is this is
this has happened. So this is the part I call it
the internalization, which is very dangerous when the person
(26:14):
tend to justify this happens with the in dealing with the
raised question, dealing with the caste system.
When a person thinks that, OK, Iam not as good as a Brahman.
I mean, a person would be I'm not as good as a white person or
I'm not good as a as being a man, then probably this is the
(26:37):
worst aspect that you can see. That means you have there is an
enemy within, realize that enemywithin and to fight against that
enemy, you have to unlearn so much there.
A lot of unlearning is required and probably when you see others
like this, then peer group kind of pressure, then you find that
(26:58):
others are also like that. So women are kind of happening
in this. But there is a silver lining in
this. When I say majority of the
people, a great majority of the women are like that.
There are women who are questioning this either either
vocally or in action. In action also they may not sit
down and articulate this, but what is this is happening?
(27:21):
Their migration outside that region and working in Delhi.
And although they find Delhi as a kind of they are not in the
mainstream of society. They still look for their peer
groups, is still their friendship circles, but the
social groups. But at the same time they find
themselves freer to have financial independence, have
(27:44):
decide about their own life, notto marry, not to have children.
It is by certain age these kind of pressures are over.
And they also find little bit comfort in living because living
in forest can be good in them. But when you have to do the
infrastructure is not enough, then probably you find that
(28:06):
those it's a difficult to rain. So they find that this terrain
is better with few precautions. Delhi terrain is better than it.
Rain is securement. The rain is there.
When you planned your research and then you began interviewing
and collecting data, was there anything that surprised you or
(28:32):
did you find what you thought you were going to find?
Yes, a lot of surprises were there.
I first thing, I went there withthe idea that it will be a very
modern society. I was initially reluctant to
take it that there won't be any kind of practice of witch hunts.
But then when I learn, I have some friends in the universities
(28:56):
and journalism and this circle and they told me it is there.
So I wanted to explore that itself was a surprise when I
came to know this practice. Second thing surprises me that
there were besides which and there were additional kind of
besides which branding. I will say there were additional
(29:19):
factors that surprised me. For example, there is a system
of tiger that man becomes a tiger in the night, one man and
there is a circle of these tigers.
So 1 village might have 2-3 tigers.
They meet there themselves in the night.
(29:39):
They go and loot the villages correct resources.
And there is no no police report, nothing like that.
Because they are supposed to be the tigers.
They are not they the tiger spirit, they call them tiger
spirit. Tiger spirit has entered their
body. So they behave like tiger.
(29:59):
They will eat raw meat, they sometimes they will crave even
for killing the human beings andsome remote part.
And there was what surprised me,there were also some tiger
women. So I met a tiger woman and I
asked her what do you think? What made you a tiger?
Why did they call you a tiger woman?
(30:20):
And they said when she was in the school she could not focus.
Her focus, her attention was very short lived and she would
look at like this and sometime like this then you are not
paying enough attention or you're distracted.
Then probably you start looking around the kind of thing not
focused on that your eyes not stuck at the teacher.
(30:42):
And they thought that because she roams around in the night as
a tiger. So she's a tiger woman.
She studied, she worked in within the government and when
she I met her, she's almost retiring age that kind of she
was 58, very articulate, very good looking woman.
But at the same time they calledher a tiger woman.
(31:03):
And before that I was given a description that how a tiger man
or a woman looks, that big eyes,rolling eyes, they can't see you
straight in the eyes. So this was they, they are very
sleepy in the during the day because they have not slept in
the night. They are roaming around in the
(31:24):
forest. So this was the myth that and I
said how many, how many tiger men would be in this village?
And I was told by a retired police officer but a very high
ranked director general of the police that that Indian police
force in that state is full of these tigers.
(31:45):
So they are considered as efficient that you can track the
criminals in the night who are part of this.
So if you are a tiger man, you won't feel sleepy in the night.
So this surprised me. Second thing that surprised me
also was the question of how do you poison food by looking at
that. So in Sikkim for example, tiger
(32:06):
man were there in Nagalip and also part in bit of other state
also adjoining in Sikkim there was a practice of Ning ning.
Ning Ning Ning is the food poisoning, but this food
poisoning can be that you eat only in the safe restaurant.
So you can get food poisoning byif you eat by anywhere, by any
(32:31):
stranger. For example, I can eat some
sweets and then I had to eat first myself and then pick up
kind of thing then I would offerto others.
So this was also surprises me that food is not after this.
Of course, these young students,they became very friendly with
me and they related that how they were warned by mothers that
(32:51):
they could work with me but not take any offering.
They told me that offering by meor eat with in a restaurant with
me, but they were eating later but they shared themselves.
So this widespread thing about food poisoning, not because the
food can be polluted, but food can be poisoned and if a person
indulges in this a lot more poisoning other person, then a
(33:14):
Black Flag is put on that person's house.
And lot of them are lot of them are these women who are the food
poisoners. They cook and they serve and
they market kind of food. After processing him, that came
a big surprise to me. Third surprise came to me
burying alive people. That is the history I've read
(33:36):
about burning of women as which is in Europe, early modern
Europe. But this was almost like that
that a woman would be driven to a dry well and then she would
made to she would kind of pushedinto that well and want that
they will put a lot of mud so that she's covered and cover her
(34:00):
with that and women. Some women were also involved in
this actor. This is one act that surprised
me very act. This happened in the and two
weeks before I was there. Of course then it matter was
reported to the police and the police came and they removed the
dead body. And when I went to the police
station because this officer wasthere and I wanted to see his
(34:23):
reaction and he said well this is part of their system.
We have to have the penal measures.
But it is they won't. They are not even punished for
the murders. In this case.
Lot of the mob is there when they are done this and that.
The mob is led by the close relatives.
In this case, it was the husband's younger brother whose
(34:45):
son was ill for 15 days, fever and young child.
I mean he was three-year old andhe died and as a result was that
they thought that she has cast the spell.
So she was pushed to the well and after that all the ritual
ceremony was there. Even she, this woman who was
(35:05):
killed like this, she has a eight-year old son and he was
wearing a mourning dress, white and some kind of traditional
dress. I was so amazed that and
everyone was talking coolly about that, that of course this
has to be, it has to be done because she was a witch.
If you don't kill her, then she would kill others.
(35:29):
So this is for your own safety. You are killing them.
So this logic also surprised me.It repeatedly surprised me kind
of thing that even in this modern kind of society, these
things are accepted so easily. So these surprises came to me,
this thing. And then women also believe.
(35:51):
Why women won't believe Women also would believe in this.
When she was pushed to the kind of well there were couple of
women in that and there were about 8 men and three women.
So that is the this kind of woman pushing another woman and
then this is seeking the acceptability that you have to
(36:13):
be part of that system. Otherwise they think that if you
are not participating, you mightbe sympathetic to to the witch
and they might have some witch element in yourself.
That's why you are protecting her.
So this is part of the internalization I am talking
about, but creating as a kind ofpressure group pressure within
(36:33):
yourself, which you have internalized.
One more surprise I was because I am from India and Delhi.
So that is what the people from Delhi are always a suspect.
They think you are part of the central government and the
Government of India has controlled some areas,
particularly Netherland with thekind of militant forces because
(36:56):
there has been a militancy goingon.
They want their own society, they want separation from India,
that complex kind of phenomenon.So in this I was allowed that.
In this I was told that you cannot, you cannot go to the
village because you are from Delhi.
So I said, but I want to meet a tiger man because the tiger man
(37:18):
was there who was willing to talk.
So he said you can go there, they won't attack you, but they
won't talk to you. They would meet you neither.
You can enter the village. You can be on the outer skirts
of the village. So this problem was solved by my
friend who's in not A and who teaches English in the
Department of English in Nagaland University.
(37:40):
And she said she would go and she will interview on my behalf
so that you cannot go to any village.
That is, that came as a surprise.
These are some surprises. Given how entrenched witch
hunting is in cultures and this skepticism towards outside
(38:05):
influences, what kind of changescan happen to go against to
challenge the witch hunting and the harmful practices How is
change going to happen I. Think change is going to happen
through rights movement. Rights movement of eminent
(38:28):
particular focused attention butpeople also rights of the
indigenous people as such but within that rights of the
indigenous women with attention to that.
That would be one thing which has very limited efforts that
have been made. Right now there are two forces
that are working to change the system.
One force is really the make thelaw.
(38:50):
But in this region there is no law against witch hunts except
in Assam which is at the border and Assam was second worst
affected state and also studentstook the movement.
So this is these are some welcome signs.
Besides Assam there is no state that has the law because they
thought this is a part of their indigenity.
(39:13):
Vichhans is a part of their indigenity.
Once you say that it's part of indigenity then you don't change
it. For example, after so many
years, maybe in the last 10 years, now the change is
happening in India with regard to the caste system is very bad.
Untouchability is so bad. But in rural situation is still
(39:34):
it is being practiced. I mean there is a law if you
call somebody untouchable then you would be really you can be
taken to court or you can be punished for that.
But this is the open kind of this change has happened that
openly you will not denounce as a witch, but everybody would
know about it. This is very strange kind of
(39:54):
thing. There would be a kind effect
that she cast her spells, she says.
But when that woman comes, they would try to shy away, they
would try to not associate with her and then she will know that
probably they are casting, they are treating me different.
So that means that I am in trouble.
Now this needs to be addressed their kind of through awareness
(40:17):
raising, through government programs, through.
Civil society programs and civilsociety problems are so
enormous. Civil society within these this
region has been struggling with their rights against rest of
Indians. OK, but not yet a cum has to
look at their own cultures. So this is the second kind of
(40:39):
thing. I am finding it difficult to
present this case. The witches study those people
who are working in indigenous area, they think it is something
which is which furthers the ideaor deepens the idea that they
are backward people, backward incourt.
So that's why they don't want tosay that.
(41:00):
But I strongly believe that. I strongly believe in feminist
theory of women's rights and this kind of brutal, brutal
killing and much worse than subtle discrimination and other
things. And this need to be stopped.
Can you tell us a little bit more about the feminist
movement? What's happening right now with
(41:23):
it? Feminist movement in India,
right? I think one of the things
feminist movement are strugglingfor their rights on following
factors. One is the whole question of
land rights. I also work on the land rights.
76% of the agriculturalist women, those who work cultivate
(41:44):
cultivators and those who work on land, they are, they are
women. It is the official statistics
I'm giving, not even data. But they are not recognized land
owners and they are not, therefore they are not
recognized as farmers. So whatever the farmers
development program is there, only a land owner can be a
farmer officially. But these women are land owners.
(42:07):
So what you have, you have the master and the worker in the
same house. Men are the masters because they
own land and housing and women are the workers because they
work on that. So it is not only housework, it
is the work. Agricultural work also is done
by women. So agriculture work has become
like household work, non recognition of that work.
(42:29):
That is one struggle. Second point of struggle is the
unpaid care work. There is a struggle that this
need to be recognized as worker.It's a global kind of situation.
But in India also there is a lotof large movement about that.
Unpaid care work is to be recognized as the work of the
women. How it needs to be compensated,
(42:50):
the need to be worked first. The recognition is needed
because it takes lot of work on the women.
So the other day, couple of daysago, there was a discussion in a
institute on proposal and I usedthe word that marriage and
motherhood penalty. And they said we can't say
(43:10):
motherhood penalty, this will the funders won't like that.
This is the industry, What if you call it the motherhood
penalty? So I said OK, call it
implication. So this motherhood and marriage,
they are still come with all theills, with all the dowry murders
and other things, they are stillconsidered as the aim of women
(43:33):
that the good woman has to get married, she has to produce
children. In urban area, things are little
different but there, there is implicit kind of acceptance even
in cities and in urban areas. But rural area is entrenched
with that. So fundest movement is attacking
that. Third thing is political, right.
(43:55):
So we have very little representation of women in the
upper, in the parliament, in state assemblies and that is
also being discussed. Dubai women are not there in
politics. What should be done to include
their voice theorem? We have made changes at the
grassroots level, 33% compulsoryrepresentation of women and of
(44:19):
course there are some problems the men would go in women's
place, particularly if a woman is not articulate and not this.
So that is also being discussed.So these are some three economic
cultures are in culture only thecaste system is very highly
questioned category. That is why women by men.
(44:40):
So the intersectionality of gender and caste.
Some people are working on that.Even patriarchy is seen as the
Brahminical patriarchy by some. That is only among the Brahmins
has promoted the Brahmins are the uppermost caste.
I believe the patriarchy is muchmore widespread than only among
Brahmins. But Brahmins were the originator
(45:01):
purity, The Who talked of purityand pollution, let women get
polluted during menstruation period, during childbirth and
all the so on and so forth. Feminist movement is quite
vibrant in India. There on the one hand like same
thing in Pakistan. When the oppression is there
(45:23):
then the reaction is also very strong.
If you don't have the reaction is strong, then your voices are
lost. And violence against women, my
goodness, violence against womenhas become very brutal.
Earlier we read about rapes and other things.
Now we read gang rapes and murders in the most kind of
(45:47):
brutal form, because they destroy the evidence also after
that. So it is the rapes have become
gang rapes and brutal murders ofwomen in public places.
Once in a while you share the cases made more prominent but
this goes on kind of things. So when not only domestic
violence but it is the public places also are not safe
(46:11):
transports, roads, they are not safe places also.
So these are the 4-5 features onwhich feminist movement in India
is very strong. Of course, Government of India
talks about AG20 women LED development.
I'm I'm still debating what is women LED women president who is
(46:35):
from indigenous areas, indigenous women.
So our president, presi Prime Minister, we don't have American
system. They are the president is
everything. We have the Prime Minister that
system, but nevertheless the president is the head of the
state. So a woman is the head of the
state. Delhi yesterday got elected.
(46:56):
The chief minister of Delhi state is a woman.
So these are the things that attempt is being made to have
the token tokenization of women in order to show that we are
doing better. So India's number is very, very
low in terms of the gender baseddiscrimination.
So they are trying to improve their situation.
(47:16):
And before you go, could you tell us about the International
Alliance to End Witch Hunts? Oh, that about three years ago I
set up this international alliance to end witch hunts.
Idea was that how to spread thisknowledge about the witch
question and how we do you enlarge kind of things.
(47:38):
So we have meeting about four times a year.
Initially it was twice a year where we invite people from
Pacific, from Africa in particular because Africa, it is
quite widespread and also some Europeans and from the US you
are there and these are the somenetworks that kind of thing.
(48:01):
And there are 15 members who arethe core group, people with whom
initially the meeting was set up.
Now the membership which is freekind of thing, it is there about
200 people. So we have this meeting
regularly and we discussed not only in question of India, we
(48:21):
also discussed the what has happened in Africa, what happens
early modern Europe. So looking at the history also
sometime I would like of course you and Josh also to talk about
your situation. That is that would be really
good. I after I come back this time it
is a bit delayed. So I was thinking after this
(48:41):
Commission on the status of women in New York meeting and
then we come back and what happened there and how the which
question is seen or not seen. It is in Europe and North
America with the exception people like you, it is seen as
if it is, it is a part of the ancient system and it's
disappeared. And so there is a limited
(49:05):
interest except among some scholars.
But Asia and more so in Africa, Africa there is a lot of now
research that is happening in the last five years, Tanzania,
Ghana, South Africa, I mean there are studies are coming on
the discussion and Pacific also is bad but not so many studies
(49:28):
on Pacific as you find in Africa.
In Asia also some people are interested but in India in
particular, but very limited. I don't see any other country of
Asia that that has addressed this issue except in China where
the soon after liberation they have outlawed the veg question
(49:48):
and they have made a cluster of the villages because they were
not accepted in the society and there was violence.
So they're outcasting of these people.
But in the government jobs thereare no kind of discrimination,
but outside they are called as the veg village.
We're so glad you joined us for today's important episode with
(50:08):
Doctor Govan Kilker. Sarah, do you have any
announcements this week? Yes, I do Listeners, you can
help by signing the petition forthe Accused Witches of Maryland
to show your support for their exoneration, please go to
change.org/MD Witch Trials. Change.org/MD witch Trials.
(50:37):
Anything else we need to cover? Yes, listeners, we have an
important fundraiser this June. We want to go to the Magic and
Witchcraft Conference, and whilewe are there, we've been invited
to create a podcast episode in historic York, England.
But we need your help to get there.
You can donate at the link in the show notes.
(51:01):
Thank you so much. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
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