October 16, 2024 • 46 mins
Explore one of Europe's most notorious witch hunts - the Basque Witch Trials in France and Spain - with historian Jan Machielsen, author of the new release "The Basque Witch Hunt: A Secret History." We uncover the complex factors behind the trials, including the role of sex-obsessed judge Pierre de Lancre. Machielsen shares the unique Basque Sabbath descriptions and the controversial use of child witnesses, revealing how approximately 100 victims fell prey to these trials. Learn how witch hunt fears persisted and transformed within communities, and draw striking parallels between historical witch hunts and modern witch persecutions. Join us for an eye-opening exploration of the Basque country's rich history.
Buy: The Basque Witch Hunt: A Secret History by Jan Machielsen
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast that explores the
history and impact of witch hunts around the world.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. And I'm Sarah Jack.
Today we're uncovering the history of one of Europe's most
notorious witch hunts, the Basque witch trials.
We're joined by historian Jan Mckeelson, author of the newly
released book The Basque Witch Hunt, A Secret History.
(00:22):
Jan's research offers a fresh perspective on this dark chapter
of history. From sex obsessed judges to
child witnesses, and from bizarre descriptions of witch's
Sabbath to lingering societal fears, the episode uncovers the
complex factors that fueled the Basque witch hunt.
John also draws some intriguing parallels between historical
(00:43):
witch hunts and modern day conspiracy theories, reminding
us that these events are not just relics of the past.
So get ready for a fascinating journey into the heart of the
Basque Country and the witch hunts that shaped its history.
Let's begin our conversation with Jan Mckeelson.
Welcome to Witch Hunt and congratulations on your new
(01:05):
book, The Basque Witch Hunt, A Secret History.
Can you tell our listeners aboutyour background and expertise
and have you had any author events?
Oh, so my name is Jan Mckeelson.I'm a reader which is sort of
associate professor here in the UK.
I'm a reader at Cardiff University.
This is my depending on how you can by second or my third book,
(01:27):
I've written wildly about witchcraft in different guises.
So I have written a biography ofa man called Martin Del Rio who
some of your readers listeners might know.
He is one of the very famous demonologists.
But this is a very different book.
This is a book about a witch hunt rather than demonologist,
although there is a demonologistinvolved in it too.
(01:50):
But I didn't really want to start Young Michaelson series of
biographies of demonologists, soI was very keen on focusing it
on the witch hunt rather than onthe demonologist in question.
Piada long term. And yeah, the book came out as
we're speaking. The book came out last week.
So at the moment I have one event here in Cardiff next week
(02:12):
on on the 15th of October, but it's sold out.
And when I say sold, it's actually a free event.
So it's not that difficult. And then there is an event in
London that people might want toget tickets for still, and
that's on Thursday from memory, the 23rd of October.
And that's at Fred Bells. It's a bookshop in in London, in
(02:36):
Bloomsbury. Thank you.
And your book is more than a simple retelling of the story of
the Basque witch hunt. It offers a lot more.
What more can listeners expect to learn about when they pick up
your book? Well, the story of the Basque
(02:56):
witch hunt is really famous. It is one of Europe's most
notorious witch hunts. And actually the parallel here
is maybe particularly with Salemin the United States.
There is just as Salem is like part of the origin story of the
United States, the Basque witch hunt is very much part of the
origin story of the Basque Country as a territory.
(03:18):
And the traditional story of thewitch hunt that has been retold
over the centuries, that this isa witch hunt that has been
inflicted on the Basque Country by evil outside judges.
The Basque countries, as you mayknow, divided between France and
Spain. On the French side, you have a
judge copier, the long crew who wrote a famous book about his
(03:39):
experiences in the Basque Country.
And he is maybe for that reason always held up as almost an
archetypal villain. And then on the Spanish side,
you have the Inquisition who gothim for of.
So it's quite easy to see why this is a witch hunt that's
often been told as a story of outside judges, like going into
(04:01):
a territory and then searching for evil.
And that's a story that like as particular resonances in the
Basque Country, because the Basque Country is, is quite an
unusual space. Basque, the language is Europe's
only language isolates, which means that it has no connections
whatsoever to any other Europeanlanguage.
(04:22):
So the masque have the very own distinct culture.
And part of what seems to have happened also is that our
culture ends up being demonized in some ways.
And of course, this attack or this witch hunt is then seen as
an attack not just on Basque people, Basque women in
particular, of course, but also seen as an attack on Basque
(04:44):
culture as well. And what I sort of tried to do
in this book is actually turn a story a bit on this head and
show that actually we love the impulse for this witch hunt was
actually homegrown starting in the Basque Country.
And I actually that Basques havea very long established history
of of witch hunting that goes back at least a century, a
(05:06):
century and a half, possibly longer, and that this is just
the most extreme version of a long existing trend.
That's such a familiar, the secret history part.
I really am so happy to see thatemphasized.
We have seen when we're looking at Salem, there's the history
(05:30):
behind what is popularly known. Is there anything else that you
want to speak to about the Secret History?
The other part of the story, I think, in terms of the secret
history, is the question about the sources that we historians
have and how we can use those sources to try and tell a story.
Part of the reason why, particularly on the French side
(05:52):
of this witch hunt, why this witch hunt was always seen as
like Pierre Delanca being this sole person responsible for this
witch hunt, is because he wrote a book about it.
And I was like, why do you believe that?
No other source survives? And this, I think, has a sort of
like real methodological issue for us as historians, because it
(06:13):
raises the question as to how can we see this witch hunt from
the eyes of someone else And Pierre Delancro, And maybe we'll
get into this, but Pierre Delancro had his.
He's not a nice person. But when I say that this book
tries to show that the witch hunt emerged out of the Basque
Country itself, it's in no way an attempt to excuse Pierre de
(06:34):
Lanco. He was one of the most
unpleasant people that I've everhad to work on.
And I've worked on other demonologists.
So I think that's saying a lot. What it does mean is trying to
escape his perspective. And is that's another component
I think of biting us as a sort of secret history.
And in there I have found other documents that people weren't
(06:55):
aware of. Some of them were really
difficult documents to work with.
A lot of documents that I found were financial records where
literally just said payment to this judge, payment to this
interpreter, payment to this jailer, and then trying to
reconstruct things from there. But there are also other
witnesses out there who've left fragmentary accounts of what
(07:19):
happened. And I think when you put all of
those things together, get a different story that shows up.
Pieter Langkra is still a significant actor in this story,
but he was called in to prosecute this witch hunt.
And he was also related by marriage to a member of the
local Basque nobility. So he was not actually an
(07:41):
outsider. He was actually part of internal
factionalism inside the Basque Country.
What can you tell us about the scale and scope magnitude of
this witch hunt? How many victims are we talking
about and what do we need to know about the victims?
(08:02):
Well, this is a really great question, and it's also a
question that doesn't have a very cut and dry answer.
Pierre Delancro in for the French side.
Pierre Delancro is not at all interested in telling us those
types of detail. He doesn't offer like a
chronological account being like, well, today I arrived in
(08:24):
beyond the capital of the BasqueCountry, and now I'm going to go
and hunt some witches and tomorrow I will execute for
nearly all he. All Pierre Elanquis says is that
he and his colleague, because there was another judge working
alongside him that they prosecuted between 60 and 80
witches, that he number then gets a bit complex because he
(08:46):
talks about saucier. So that's the female branch for
which, and we know that one set of targets is also priests or by
definition male. So there might be some men.
No one could add to that mix. But on the other hand, we know
that some of the people he prosecuted, he ended up
banishing rather than executing so that you could take some
people away from the equation. And then there is the final
(09:09):
thing that is really important to my wider story is that this
witchcraft Commission that was sent from Bordeaux in 16 O 9 to
deal with this witchcraft problem and which operated for
about four months. That's only one part of the
story. Like in my book, it's like the
middle bars. And what I tried to show is that
they're actually, it's already witch hunting happening before
(09:32):
they call in these outside judges.
And actually, after they leave there, there's evidence of
vigilante justice and people lynching suspected witches.
My own estimate is that there isprobably about 100 victims, but
that's based not on any clear mathematics.
It's really just for you to taketogether the, the bits and
(09:55):
pieces of evidence that we have.I'm think that's still a
significant number. It's, it's more than Salem, but
it's also, it can also point to some German witch hunts where
about 1000 people died by by that count, it's, it's a, it's,
it's a noticeable number, but it's, it's not exceptionally big
by comparative European standards.
(10:19):
And but was there a lot of confessing that happened with
the accused? So with the testimony that we
have, we have quite a few accusations by children that are
an important part of this witch hunt.
These children were in all likelihood, not charged.
(10:40):
I think there's one case where one of these children said the
wrong thing and then ended up being executed as a witch.
And basically what happened is that they claimed to be taken to
the Sabbath by witches, which made them valuable witnesses to
use against witches. And then one of them
(11:01):
accidentally said, Oh yes, but sometimes I went on my own and
that meant that they that she clearly was not actually taken
against her will. And and then what a tragically
when she did was done on the scaffolds and realized, Oh my
God, I'm being killed too. She said, no, no, no, I made it
all up And at that point it was too late.
So that makes it actually ratherdifficult to say how many of the
(11:24):
actual key switches confessed. Get along quick really valued
the testimony of this particulargirl because he who says witches
really rarely confess but of course she never thought of
herself as a witch. She thought of herself as a
witness. So most of the testimony that we
have, particularly from Kate Alanka's account comes from
children and teenagers who act as accusers while bothered under
(11:45):
the confessions of witches. But there are definitely some of
them in the book. There is one particular moving
example of Kate Alanka does not name her.
He describes her as a 40 year old witch from beer.
It's beer, it's as a small, it'sa seaside resort now on the
Bosque Coast. But back then I was a small
seaside village. And there is this bit along who
describes this 40 year olds which like crying and hitting
(12:09):
her head against his desk being so upset about what what was
happening. So there is some destiny there.
But the bulk of the material that we have comes from Mchughes
as well done for Mitchells. And how were those who were
convicted, how were they executed?
So Pierre Delanco doesn't botherto tell or describe the method
(12:32):
of execution, but I think we cantake it for granted that they
will be burned. It is possible, I would hope so,
hopefully likely, that they might have been spangled before
their bodies were burned. That was common practice and
French legal procedure at the time for reasons that it makes
(12:53):
it makes the whole execution a bit more orderly and a bit more
seemly. Sorry, that sounds really grim
to say it in that way. We have one example that he
gives where a which is executed by burning.
But at that moment a toad escapes from her body.
And toads are also in the BasqueCountry particularly associated
with witchcraft. And he says that at that stage
(13:15):
the the public gets so outraged that they start throwing stones
at the tying person. And from that I think it's it is
clear that there is death by burning.
But that's about as close to himbothering to describe anything
as a source. He's really not interested in
telling us anything in terms of chronology or detail.
(13:37):
What he wants to convey is what he's discovered, which is the
world of the Sabbath. And the book is really basically
a extended description of the witch's Sabbath, which he's
cobbled together from quotationsfrom the the witnesses that he
had interviewed. What was a Sabbath and how did
(13:58):
his differ from other European Sabbaths?
Partly because of Pietilanqua, the witch's Sabbath has always
been associated with the Basque.In his the second edition of his
famous book, he even commissioned a Paris engraver to
include an engraving of what theWitcher Sabbath looks like,
(14:22):
which is quite an interesting thing to think about because the
Witcher Sabbath takes place at night.
Only witches are meant to be there or witches and these
witnesses then taken against their will.
But in theory, only witches are meant to be there and the devil.
And it should not be accessible to normal bias Christian eyes.
And it's only really accessible to the judges through the
(14:45):
testimony of those who went there and and yet here get
along. Chris even includes an engraving
the big thing what is meant to have looked like and Kayla Lanka
is really obsessed by the Sabbath.
Like when he finds out locationswhere the Sabbath is meant to
have been held, he goes there just to see if he can find any
evidence. He claims at one point that he
(15:06):
found from a marking that he canfound where the bots of the
witch's Sabbath where the poisons and potions were cooked
that he couldn't find the part where the Sabbath was held.
So the so the Sabbath is really,really associated with the
Basque Country. And that's also because the
testimony that be along with andgathers up about a Sabbath is
(15:29):
much more sensational than any other Sabbath testimony gathered
from anywhere else. Stories about which a Sabbath
are often quite commonplace, butone story that you might know or
that in that your listeners might know, is that witches were
meant to consume the bodies of dead babies at a Sabbath.
But what the what the busts do is that apparently they go into
(15:52):
cemeteries and dig up the bodiesof dead witches and that the
devil gives them special dentures so that at the Sabbath
they can eat the bodies of dead witches.
So there's a lot of really bizarre graphic detail that
really is highly unusual, and there's nothing really similar
to it in what survives of sort of European Sabbath narratives.
(16:17):
That engraving his rather incredible of everything with
all the different panels depicting everybody's different
involvement. The children guarding the toads
is probably my favorite piece ofthat.
Yeah, yeah. So I had a whole chapter in the
book where so basically I take every little fragment, every
(16:37):
little vignette and use it to decode the surviving testimony.
Then and then then boy, comparing the French material
that Catalan cruise gathered up,we have the material that the
Spanish inquisitors scattered up.
You can actually see how much ofthis material comes from the
Basque country. That's not to say that any of
these stories was were real. It's just that a lot of this is
(17:01):
folkloric beliefs inside the Basque Country.
And that to me it really explains why someone like
Catalan crept ended up writing this book because he didn't
arrive in the Basque country of preconceived ideas of of that
are adapts a specific like he presumably had read his malaise
Maleficarum before traveling to the Basque Country.
So to me knows books like the Malaya's and Martin del Rio's
(17:26):
book, the the person I wrote on before I worked on cattle and
grow. Certainly he knows those books.
But then he arrives in the Basque Country and then he has
all these witnesses tell him these extraordinary stories
that, you know, that, as he himself said, were never
reported in any of the literature that he'd read.
And that's part of his motivation to to write his book
is basically to show his readers.
(17:48):
Look at what I found here, whichis a very different, I think a
reason for writing than what most authors or most, most
historians have have said about get along with that.
He wrote his book as a way of justifying his witch hunt.
So that's not what he is interested in.
It's more like this is amazing material and everyone needs to
(18:08):
know about this. You've read about a debate that
was going on about whether the Sabbath was a real physical
event or whether it was more an illusion or imaginary.
Can you explain that? This is particularly the case in
Spain with Inside a Spanish Inquisition and that the Spanish
(18:30):
Inquisitors really argued amongst themselves whether or
not the Sabbath that they were exploring whether or not that
was a real thing or whether or not it was entirely imaginary.
And when I say imaginary, I meanthat what they were wondering
whether whether or not it happened or whether or not the
devil made them think it happened.
And that if the devil made them think it happened.
(18:52):
So for instance, they were sleeping and in their sleep the
devil made them think that they traveled to the Sabbath, whether
or not these people were then still legally responsible.
Are you still a witch if you dream that you went to the
Sabbath rather than if you actually flew to the Sabbath
from on a goat? And these are the types of like
really faxing legal questions that the Inquisition in
(19:15):
particular got really obsessed by.
Then on the Spanish side, it really seems that those types of
debates ultimately frustrated any further action against the
witches. Piet Alankra seems not to be
interested in this at all. For him, the Sabbath was a real
thing, and witches deserved to die for going to the Sabbath.
(19:36):
But the Spanish Inquisition is avery bureaucratic institution.
It's also very legally minded. They were also saying we cannot
prosecute these refugees from France, these people accused of
witchcraft of fled into Spain because they haven't committed
any witchcraft here in Spain, which is quite a fun sort of
(19:59):
thing to think about if you think about it because.
If you made it back to the devil, why does it matter that
you made it back to the devil inFrance as opposed to Spain?
But that is the sort of like legal consideration that they
really thought about in the Inquisition.
And is there anything we need tounderstand about the French
(20:19):
legal framework with witch trials?
That's a really good question because it gets to the reason
why Pierre de Longue was send in.
The thing about the French legalsystem is that it's highly
bureaucratic in a different way,in that they have lots of
appeals processes and that if you are accused of witchcrafts
(20:42):
or any other crime, then there will be a trial in Bayonne.
But that file couldn't be appealed to Bordeaux.
In Bordeaux, you'd have maybe 15judges looking over your your
case, and all of those judges needed baying.
And one of the things that's so interesting about the surviving
(21:04):
material, the few surviving archival materials, is that a
lot of them are invoices and a lot of them are like account
book listing the costs. And it really brings out the
high cost of French justice. So one of the reasons then why
the Basque communities on the French side really wanted this
outside Commission and was because it would make witch
(21:25):
hunting a lot cheaper. Because it meant that you didn't
have to transport your witches from the Basque Country to
Bordeaux, which was about 5 daystravel at the time.
And you wouldn't have to house them and feed them there.
You wouldn't have to pay all of those judges.
You only needed to pay the two judges on your witchcraft
Commission. The there were actually some
(21:47):
strong financial motives for creating a witchcraft Commission
because it meant that they couldact.
The judges could act in the Basque Country and they could
act without any possibility of appeal.
So the main thing to notice about the the French side is
it's just like the high cost of,of justice in France.
The Commission you mentioned before, they worked for four
(22:11):
months, and how were they able to work so much more quickly
than regular justice? There are a few factors there.
I think the, the main thing is that that there was no
possibility of appeal. And this is something that the
Bordeaux Parliament, which is the the court of Pietilanco
himself was part of. That's the appeals court in
(22:32):
Bordeaux. The parliament really resisted
registering. There's the King Henry the Force
edict setting up this witchcraftCommission because I think they
were like, we want do we get paid?
And I think can be maybe that, yeah, it can be that crude.
So the fact that there was no longer any forms of appeal meant
that they could act more quickly.
(22:54):
The fact that they literally traveled from community to
community and I don't know how accurate or complete my
reconstruction has been, but like looking at these invoices
and comparing it with dates thatget along could casually
management. I've been able to create a map
as to sort of like where they were at any given point in time,
I think. And then you can still get a
(23:15):
sense as to they travel to a village, they would prosecute
the witches there and then they would execute them there and
then they would move on to the next village.
And that obviously went a lot quicker than having to send all
of those witches and the witnesses accusing them, sending
all of them to Bordeaux. And therefore is quite plausible
to me that they actually did endup executing 50-60, maybe more
(23:43):
people in that four months period.
You had mentioned that there wasa history of witchcraft
accusations in the Basque Country.
How was that a perfect expression of a conflict there?
So a big part of my argument about this witch hunt is sort of
(24:03):
that it's really significant that it took place in the border
region. France and Spain in the early
17th century were the two major European powers and they were
almost always at war with one another.
Spain at the time had you know avast empire and of course like
(24:23):
from an American come context, you will know about the Spanish
empire in the Americas. But in Europe the kings of Spain
were also the Dukes of Milan so northern Italy.
They also were in charge of whatwas good done then called the
Spanish Netherlands, which is now Belgium.
There were a number of territories to the east of
(24:44):
France that owed their allegiance to Spain.
So as you can see that Spain almost encircles France at a
time. So Spain and France did not
really get along. And the Basque Country, in
particular, the town of city of Bayonne really is like the entry
point between France and Spain because France and Spain are
(25:07):
separated by the Pyrenees, the destiny territory of the Beta
labor did this part of the Basque Country that is in France
is like the first French line ofthe fence against Spain, which
makes it really important for the French monarchy that people
in the Beta labor are all happy and harmonious and working
(25:28):
together at this the just in case the Spanish invade.
But what then also happens is that because of that and because
Paris is so far away, it also means that actually it's very
difficult for the kings of France to assert their authority
in a territory like the beta laborer because they need to
keep everyone happy. It's far away.
(25:51):
How do you assert your authority?
So there's actually, as a result, constant conflicts
between the communities and towns of the beta laborer, where
they all argue about scarce resources, and also between the
nobles and the towns where it's really clear to that the towns
are by French standards, we havea lot of rights.
(26:13):
They're incredibly independent. And the nobles are like, they
look at what nobles in other parts of France are getting away
with and they're like, we want that too.
So there's actually a lot of conflicts and it's quite
difficult to see how that conflict links to the witch
hunts, except that it's clear that it did in the sense that it
(26:34):
you can see how people from 1 faction accuse other people from
the opposite faction of witchcraft.
So again, there is maybe a parallel there with some of the
stuff that's been written about Salem.
But I think it's really important to say that we should
never see which accusations as just a tool of a cynical tool of
accusing the other. I think it's also very natural
(26:57):
to believe the worst of an enemyand that if you are engaged in a
long running dispute that you would be willing to believe that
your enemy would make a pact with the devil.
But these conflicts are really gradually tearing this this
territory apart. And actually then sending a
group of commissioners in from the outside seems like the best
(27:19):
way of solving this problem. But then of course, one of the
commissioners is Cadel Ankara and he is a a water sex grace
maniac who was fascinated by by by the devil.
So he's watered the wrong personto sort out the many different
conflicts that exist in this territory.
Yeah, on the subject you got into at the end, his sex
(27:44):
obsession, what's the deal with that?
Why was he so utterly obsessed with the sex lives of especially
the beautiful women and the teenagers?
It's really what is working so that when you read his his
descriptions, he constantly liketalks about how bewitching the
(28:07):
the Basque women are. And he also really represents
the Basque Country as a femininespace.
And to some extent, he's actually justified by doing that
because the main economic foundation of the Basque Country
is fishing and whaling and sort of the menfolk are all off.
Actually. Some of them go as far away as
(28:28):
like the Canadian Maritimes to go hunts for whales.
So in Catalan, his imagination, that means that the women and
both men and priests are just all that's left in the Basque
Country. And as a result, the devil is
very easy to infiltrate the space and seduce the women.
So, yeah, so the Basque Country and it's womenfolk are clearly
(28:49):
like an obsession of his. And he describes Basque women in
their dress. That included two contemporary
engravings of Basque women and how they dressed.
And it's quite unusual. So we'll buy the book because,
yes, you can look at some imagesthere.
So he's clearly so taken, taken by, by, by, by how they looked.
(29:13):
I think there is also maybe an important factor here that he
doesn't speak Basque and he usesinterpreters.
So he cannot actually get to what these people are saying
except through an interpreter. But he can scrutinize the bodies
of the witnesses and witches andthey give him some sort of like
direct access to this demonic story that the testimony in some
(29:39):
sense doesn't. So I think there are a number of
factors there that sort of come together.
But yeah, as I write in the book, we we know he has an
illegitimate son. So if he's already married to
his wife, so there is definitelyevidence that he is a bit of a
sex best, let's put it that way the very least.
(30:00):
These demonology books and theirauthors, other men were reading
these other people, other authorities involved in
convicting witches were reading these.
It's so I just think that impactmust have really trickled
through the communities, the world, the ages.
Yeah, it's interesting because there is actually a relatively
(30:24):
contemporary German translation of get Along who's book, and it
has a sort of, I think Clyde revealing titles of the
wonderful secrets of witches. And that sort of I think really
like testifies is what Pedlanko is revealing here is like this
exotic author quite sexually explicit.
Like he also talks a great length about the size and shape
(30:44):
of the devil's penis. Like there's really strange
remarkable worlds that he's uncovered.
But it's also like fair to say that the tableau, which so
that's the main text of Catalan provides, it goes only through
two editions. So it's not the malaious
Malafakaram where it's not Martin Douglio's disc was a
Jonas. Like it's as far as early modern
(31:06):
neurological text goes. It's actually not really quite a
bestseller. So it's quite and I don't quite
conquer and explain why it wasn't more successful at the
time, but at the same time get along quick keeps on writing
about witches. So after he has to blow, he
writes two more books about witches, the last apparently for
(31:31):
his own personal entertainment. That's literally what the
contract with the publisher says.
It's only it was only printed in40 copies and therefore only
three or four copies still survive to this day.
You put all the pages of those books together, you get through
about 1700 pages about witches and demons and other to the
(31:51):
related supernatural things. And that does make him, I would
argue I haven't found anyone else.
Maybe in response to this interview someone will come up
with with a counter example, butI think he would name he may
very well be the the burst of who was filled to most pages on
demonology in the entire early modern period, because 1700
(32:15):
pages is a lot. Yeah, when books of.
That time were generally pretty sure that these were some real
opuses. Yeah, very.
Much, Yeah. The only other thing I would
bring up is that I also want to spend some time about the way
this witch hunt ends because. I think often people.
(32:40):
Think that witch hunting ends once the witch hunter backs up
his back and leaves. And that's like a traditional
story that has been told about the witch hunt in the Basque
Country. It's like get along and his
colleague, their four months areover, they returned to Bordeaux
and then that's that basically, but.
(33:01):
The. Evidence that survived shows
that there is substantial panic about witches persisting in the
Basque Country across the 16 dens.
Almost like a full decade after the judges leave, there are
still people being panicked about witches, people going to
visiting missionaries and confess that they were witches.
(33:23):
And there's lots of stuff still happening.
So my book doesn't end in six year online.
My book ends in 1619, and it ends there because it's a that
moment where I think that the witch hunt really ends because
one thing that happens with the border is that there is another
group of refugees, but this timefleeing from Spain into.
(33:46):
France, rather. Than witches fleeing from France
into Spain. And these refugees are religious
refugees. They are new Christians.
So these are people who whose ancestors have been forced to
convert from Judaism and Islam and but were suspected by the
imposition of having reverted tothe faith of their ancestors.
(34:07):
And they they flee across the border.
And obviously the Basque Country, because it's just
across the border, is a place where a lot of them settle.
And it seems like a lot of thesefears about witches are
displaced. They move from witches to these
new these refugees, and in 1619,one of these refugees, a
Portuguese woman called KaterinaFernandez, ends up being lynched
(34:33):
by a mob in the small town of Saint John the loose and and the
way that event is described to me sounds very similar to the
fears that's around witches a decade earlier.
We can have a really, I think interesting discussion as well
as like how do witch hunts end? Because I don't think they end
(34:54):
simply because a judge leaves when because they cast so much
Banach in the territory and thatlingered.
And I think those fears were transferred onto another group
of victims who were then ultimately cast out and expels
from the Basque Country. I'm really glad that you.
Wanted to speak about that it's your your book really is going
(35:18):
to expand people's understandingof humans and witchcraft fears
put on innocent people. But I think the ending thing,
they haven't ended in our world and they don't just have that
final chapter. So we do need to get there.
(35:40):
But it when you thank. You for sharing.
That because I it's an example of how communities.
Have that panic. And it doesn't just, it's not
just over because the judge left, as you said.
And how that fear can be transferred.
Yeah, I said. What in my.
Epilogue and didn't want to apply the full conclusion, but I
(36:02):
wrote a a short epilogue. But I as of idea, I think
witchcraft is still with us. But I think previous historians,
even just 5 or 10 years ago, people would those historians
would all be writing about witchcraft as a thing that like
in the past. And yet I think these days, I
think we're so much more aware about how there is different
(36:26):
ways in which people think aboutwitches, like how which is
witchcraft was feel was fueled by fears about the other that
transcend like just the categoryof which and how conspiracy
theories are not something that has just just belonged to the
past. There are very much present in
the present as well. We should never see these
stories, as I think the witch hunt has often been portrayed as
(36:49):
a story of like, reason triumphing over superstition,
because that's not how these witch hunts ended.
There is, at least the Basque witch hunt did not end because
people woke up and looked aroundand thought to themselves, like,
what are we doing? It's like it seems to have ended
in a form of transfer theorems of fears of one group of
(37:10):
outsiders to another group of outsiders.
And it seems to have ended because of an act of like
popular violence rather than like an act of radical
enlightenment of whatever shape.And I think that's probably true
for the the witch hunt bit. Large in the early.
Modern period, I don't think which witchcraft police were
ever defeated by rational argument right that whole.
(37:34):
Enlightenment into the witch trials narrative has prevailed
for a long time and. I'm finding.
Myself growing out of that, thatrealizing that witch trials just
went underground and became these extrajudicial actions and
(37:56):
that has continued around the world.
Yes, a colleague. Of mine here in the UK, Bill
Pulley, who's at the University of Bristol, I don't know if
you've had a chance to interviewhim yet, but he he works on
witchcraft believes in 19th century France and there you can
see how it's no longer than likethe witches for appear in front
(38:18):
of a judge. It is people who have killed
witches who appear in front of judges and then in many
instances actually like they arelet go or they're released or
there's a jury who refuses to convict.
The story of like how the witch hunt ends is a story that is
continuing in the present day, Ithink.
(38:39):
And it's not a story that that has a very neat and uplifting
ending either. Yeah, certainly not.
Yet I think. That we're all working towards
that ending though, inside one way or another.
I think that's one of the reallyimportant ways that your podcast
contributes to to those discussions.
(39:00):
Thank you. I it is uplifting to see that
from academics and from people who are literally advocating and
rescuing folks. There's space for this
conversation now and there's lots of conversation to have.
Looking at the history gives us an opportunity to ask important
(39:21):
questions about humanity, ones that are questions that are
relevant today, that were relevant then too.
So thanks for your book is so enjoyable to read.
It really brought questions to mind of other witch hunt
histories that I. Read and study on.
(39:42):
So I just, it's a really great tool, but it tells a story that
people need to hear about the Basque Country and its people as
well. Thank you.
Well, thank you so much. Again, for having me, it's been
a real pleasure to to speak to the two of you and it's also
been an honor to be invited ontothis podcast because I know
you've attributed. Quite a number of very famous
(40:04):
people already. So it's it's honor, it's an
honor to join that particular list as well.
So thank you, thank you and. When is your book available and
how can people get their hands on it?
It's on till. Now we haven't checked the price
in dollars, but I think in at least in, in pounds and EUR,
it's quite reasonably priced. I'm hoping that it would reach a
(40:26):
wider audience and that people who are interested in finding
out more about to buzz witch hunts and fine and as as A2 if
you did so I'm placed that into a wider history that they're
they'll be interested in in buying it.
But yeah, I'm not sure we'll hitevery bookstore in in the world,
but it's certainly accessible onon all the major online
retailers at I think a quite affordable price.
(40:50):
Thank you, Jan. Now.
Mary Bingham returns with an allnew minute with Mary.
Harris agree. Regarding.
Three women over a span of 82 years, all accused of
witchcraft, who boldly defended themselves, standing in the
truth, though they knew that death was their outcome.
(41:11):
Maria Dasha Chute from Navarre, northern Spain, repeatedly
denied that she was a witch, though making a false confession
would have most likely resulted in a pardon for her.
Maria paid with her life in 1610.
Ann Hibbens, a well educated woman who was tried twice and
(41:31):
boldly declared her innocence. Ann was hanged at Boston Neck in
Boston, MA in 1656. Mary Este, a pillar in her
Topsfield, Massachusetts community, was arrested,
released, and then yet arrested again in 1692.
(41:52):
She never wavered while being badgered by the magistrates,
even authoring 2 petitions, 1 advising the magistrates how to
proceed with the trials after her death.
The strength of character of these three women is inspiring
beyond anything that I could ever imagine.
(42:12):
Thank you. Thank you, Mary.
And now Sarah has this. Week's edition of In Witch Hunts
News. On our end, Witch Hunt's.
New segment Today we're highlighting a crucial human
rights issue affecting persons with albinism.
The Africa Albinism Network is campaigning to have sunscreen
(42:32):
added to the World Health Organization's Essential
Medicines list. This campaign is driven by
compelling evidence from the 2023 report by Maluca and MIDI
Drummond, the UN independent expert on the enjoyment of human
rights by persons with albinism.Her findings under score.
A critical truth for people withalbinism, sunscreen isn't merely
(42:54):
a cosmetic luxury, it's a vital,life saving medical necessity
that can significantly extend and enhance their quality of
life. We strongly support the rights
and protection of persons with albinism.
Ending their persecution and ensuring their safety is
fundamental to upholding human dignity and rights.
Making sunscreen more accessibleby including it on the World
(43:16):
Health Organization's Essential Medicines list would
significantly improve affordability and access for
those who need it most. Do you want to learn about this
issue or get directly involved in supporting persons with
albinism? Here's an excellent opportunity.
On Thursday, October 24th at 2:00 PM GMT time.
There's an important webinar youshould know about Sunscreen as
(43:39):
Essential Medicine, a climate justice webinar.
It's being hosted by CBM Global Disability Inclusion, the Africa
Albinism Network, the Fund for Global Human Rights, and Climate
Action Network Europe. This virtual event will dive
into the crucial campaign to addsunscreen to who's essential
medicines list for persons with albinism, framing it as both a
(44:01):
human rights and climate justiceissue.
You can learn how you can actively support this vital
campaign. It's a chance to engage in a
critical conversation on human rights and climate justice,
particularly for one of the mostvulnerable populations affected
by climate change. We've included the registration
link in our show notes. Remember, your participation can
make a real difference in this important 'cause.
(44:24):
Recently, Josh and I had the privilege of meeting and
engaging with Maluca Ann MIDI Drummond at the Witchcraft and
Human Rights Conference in Lancaster.
During our interactions, we gained valuable insight into the
critical importance of ensuring the enjoyment of human rights by
persons with albinism. Maluca Ann's expertise and
passion for this cause left a lasting impression on us.
(44:45):
Following the conference, she shared a powerful statement that
directly relates to art and witch Hunt's mission.
She said. Well, this week I was at
Lancaster University attending aconference on the UN Resolution
on the Elimination of Harmful Practices related to accusations
of witchcraft and ritual attacks.
Around the world, people continue to lose their lives and
(45:05):
livelihoods due to witchcraft accusations, or in the case of
persons with albinism, for example, witchcraft related
practices. Whether you believe in
witchcraft or not, it cannot be denied that people are dying
because of it, and we cannot continue to relegate the topic
to the Isles of history in fiction, while the rights of so
many are violated and quote our conversation with Melaleuca and
(45:28):
reinforced our understanding that protecting the rights of
persons with albinism is not just a matter of policy, but a
fundamental aspect of human dignity.
It's clear that addressing harmful practices and ensuring
full human rights for persons with albinism are interconnected
and crucial goals. How will you use your unique
skills, authority, agency, and platform to advocate for persons
(45:52):
with albinism? Your collaboration is needed
now. Thank you, Sarah.
You're welcome. Thank you for joining us for
this episode. Of witch hunt.
Join us every week. Have a great today and a.
Beautiful tomorrow.
Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast that explores the
history and impact of witch hunts around the world.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. And I'm Sarah Jack.
Today we're uncovering the history of one of Europe's most
notorious witch hunts, the Basque witch trials.
We're joined by historian Jan Mckeelson, author of the newly
released book The Basque Witch Hunt, A Secret History.
(00:22):
Jan's research offers a fresh perspective on this dark chapter
of history. From sex obsessed judges to
child witnesses, and from bizarre descriptions of witch's
Sabbath to lingering societal fears, the episode uncovers the
complex factors that fueled the Basque witch hunt.
John also draws some intriguing parallels between historical
(00:43):
witch hunts and modern day conspiracy theories, reminding
us that these events are not just relics of the past.
So get ready for a fascinating journey into the heart of the
Basque Country and the witch hunts that shaped its history.
Let's begin our conversation with Jan Mckeelson.
Welcome to Witch Hunt and congratulations on your new
(01:05):
book, The Basque Witch Hunt, A Secret History.
Can you tell our listeners aboutyour background and expertise
and have you had any author events?
Oh, so my name is Jan Mckeelson.I'm a reader which is sort of
associate professor here in the UK.
I'm a reader at Cardiff University.
This is my depending on how you can by second or my third book,
(01:27):
I've written wildly about witchcraft in different guises.
So I have written a biography ofa man called Martin Del Rio who
some of your readers listeners might know.
He is one of the very famous demonologists.
But this is a very different book.
This is a book about a witch hunt rather than demonologist,
although there is a demonologistinvolved in it too.
(01:50):
But I didn't really want to start Young Michaelson series of
biographies of demonologists, soI was very keen on focusing it
on the witch hunt rather than onthe demonologist in question.
Piada long term. And yeah, the book came out as
we're speaking. The book came out last week.
So at the moment I have one event here in Cardiff next week
(02:12):
on on the 15th of October, but it's sold out.
And when I say sold, it's actually a free event.
So it's not that difficult. And then there is an event in
London that people might want toget tickets for still, and
that's on Thursday from memory, the 23rd of October.
And that's at Fred Bells. It's a bookshop in in London, in
(02:36):
Bloomsbury. Thank you.
And your book is more than a simple retelling of the story of
the Basque witch hunt. It offers a lot more.
What more can listeners expect to learn about when they pick up
your book? Well, the story of the Basque
(02:56):
witch hunt is really famous. It is one of Europe's most
notorious witch hunts. And actually the parallel here
is maybe particularly with Salemin the United States.
There is just as Salem is like part of the origin story of the
United States, the Basque witch hunt is very much part of the
origin story of the Basque Country as a territory.
(03:18):
And the traditional story of thewitch hunt that has been retold
over the centuries, that this isa witch hunt that has been
inflicted on the Basque Country by evil outside judges.
The Basque countries, as you mayknow, divided between France and
Spain. On the French side, you have a
judge copier, the long crew who wrote a famous book about his
(03:39):
experiences in the Basque Country.
And he is maybe for that reason always held up as almost an
archetypal villain. And then on the Spanish side,
you have the Inquisition who gothim for of.
So it's quite easy to see why this is a witch hunt that's
often been told as a story of outside judges, like going into
(04:01):
a territory and then searching for evil.
And that's a story that like as particular resonances in the
Basque Country, because the Basque Country is, is quite an
unusual space. Basque, the language is Europe's
only language isolates, which means that it has no connections
whatsoever to any other Europeanlanguage.
(04:22):
So the masque have the very own distinct culture.
And part of what seems to have happened also is that our
culture ends up being demonized in some ways.
And of course, this attack or this witch hunt is then seen as
an attack not just on Basque people, Basque women in
particular, of course, but also seen as an attack on Basque
(04:44):
culture as well. And what I sort of tried to do
in this book is actually turn a story a bit on this head and
show that actually we love the impulse for this witch hunt was
actually homegrown starting in the Basque Country.
And I actually that Basques havea very long established history
of of witch hunting that goes back at least a century, a
(05:06):
century and a half, possibly longer, and that this is just
the most extreme version of a long existing trend.
That's such a familiar, the secret history part.
I really am so happy to see thatemphasized.
We have seen when we're looking at Salem, there's the history
(05:30):
behind what is popularly known. Is there anything else that you
want to speak to about the Secret History?
The other part of the story, I think, in terms of the secret
history, is the question about the sources that we historians
have and how we can use those sources to try and tell a story.
Part of the reason why, particularly on the French side
(05:52):
of this witch hunt, why this witch hunt was always seen as
like Pierre Delanca being this sole person responsible for this
witch hunt, is because he wrote a book about it.
And I was like, why do you believe that?
No other source survives? And this, I think, has a sort of
like real methodological issue for us as historians, because it
(06:13):
raises the question as to how can we see this witch hunt from
the eyes of someone else And Pierre Delancro, And maybe we'll
get into this, but Pierre Delancro had his.
He's not a nice person. But when I say that this book
tries to show that the witch hunt emerged out of the Basque
Country itself, it's in no way an attempt to excuse Pierre de
(06:34):
Lanco. He was one of the most
unpleasant people that I've everhad to work on.
And I've worked on other demonologists.
So I think that's saying a lot. What it does mean is trying to
escape his perspective. And is that's another component
I think of biting us as a sort of secret history.
And in there I have found other documents that people weren't
(06:55):
aware of. Some of them were really
difficult documents to work with.
A lot of documents that I found were financial records where
literally just said payment to this judge, payment to this
interpreter, payment to this jailer, and then trying to
reconstruct things from there. But there are also other
witnesses out there who've left fragmentary accounts of what
(07:19):
happened. And I think when you put all of
those things together, get a different story that shows up.
Pieter Langkra is still a significant actor in this story,
but he was called in to prosecute this witch hunt.
And he was also related by marriage to a member of the
local Basque nobility. So he was not actually an
(07:41):
outsider. He was actually part of internal
factionalism inside the Basque Country.
What can you tell us about the scale and scope magnitude of
this witch hunt? How many victims are we talking
about and what do we need to know about the victims?
(08:02):
Well, this is a really great question, and it's also a
question that doesn't have a very cut and dry answer.
Pierre Delancro in for the French side.
Pierre Delancro is not at all interested in telling us those
types of detail. He doesn't offer like a
chronological account being like, well, today I arrived in
(08:24):
beyond the capital of the BasqueCountry, and now I'm going to go
and hunt some witches and tomorrow I will execute for
nearly all he. All Pierre Elanquis says is that
he and his colleague, because there was another judge working
alongside him that they prosecuted between 60 and 80
witches, that he number then gets a bit complex because he
(08:46):
talks about saucier. So that's the female branch for
which, and we know that one set of targets is also priests or by
definition male. So there might be some men.
No one could add to that mix. But on the other hand, we know
that some of the people he prosecuted, he ended up
banishing rather than executing so that you could take some
people away from the equation. And then there is the final
(09:09):
thing that is really important to my wider story is that this
witchcraft Commission that was sent from Bordeaux in 16 O 9 to
deal with this witchcraft problem and which operated for
about four months. That's only one part of the
story. Like in my book, it's like the
middle bars. And what I tried to show is that
they're actually, it's already witch hunting happening before
(09:32):
they call in these outside judges.
And actually, after they leave there, there's evidence of
vigilante justice and people lynching suspected witches.
My own estimate is that there isprobably about 100 victims, but
that's based not on any clear mathematics.
It's really just for you to taketogether the, the bits and
(09:55):
pieces of evidence that we have.I'm think that's still a
significant number. It's, it's more than Salem, but
it's also, it can also point to some German witch hunts where
about 1000 people died by by that count, it's, it's a, it's,
it's a noticeable number, but it's, it's not exceptionally big
by comparative European standards.
(10:19):
And but was there a lot of confessing that happened with
the accused? So with the testimony that we
have, we have quite a few accusations by children that are
an important part of this witch hunt.
These children were in all likelihood, not charged.
(10:40):
I think there's one case where one of these children said the
wrong thing and then ended up being executed as a witch.
And basically what happened is that they claimed to be taken to
the Sabbath by witches, which made them valuable witnesses to
use against witches. And then one of them
(11:01):
accidentally said, Oh yes, but sometimes I went on my own and
that meant that they that she clearly was not actually taken
against her will. And and then what a tragically
when she did was done on the scaffolds and realized, Oh my
God, I'm being killed too. She said, no, no, no, I made it
all up And at that point it was too late.
So that makes it actually ratherdifficult to say how many of the
(11:24):
actual key switches confessed. Get along quick really valued
the testimony of this particulargirl because he who says witches
really rarely confess but of course she never thought of
herself as a witch. She thought of herself as a
witness. So most of the testimony that we
have, particularly from Kate Alanka's account comes from
children and teenagers who act as accusers while bothered under
(11:45):
the confessions of witches. But there are definitely some of
them in the book. There is one particular moving
example of Kate Alanka does not name her.
He describes her as a 40 year old witch from beer.
It's beer, it's as a small, it'sa seaside resort now on the
Bosque Coast. But back then I was a small
seaside village. And there is this bit along who
describes this 40 year olds which like crying and hitting
(12:09):
her head against his desk being so upset about what what was
happening. So there is some destiny there.
But the bulk of the material that we have comes from Mchughes
as well done for Mitchells. And how were those who were
convicted, how were they executed?
So Pierre Delanco doesn't botherto tell or describe the method
(12:32):
of execution, but I think we cantake it for granted that they
will be burned. It is possible, I would hope so,
hopefully likely, that they might have been spangled before
their bodies were burned. That was common practice and
French legal procedure at the time for reasons that it makes
(12:53):
it makes the whole execution a bit more orderly and a bit more
seemly. Sorry, that sounds really grim
to say it in that way. We have one example that he
gives where a which is executed by burning.
But at that moment a toad escapes from her body.
And toads are also in the BasqueCountry particularly associated
with witchcraft. And he says that at that stage
(13:15):
the the public gets so outraged that they start throwing stones
at the tying person. And from that I think it's it is
clear that there is death by burning.
But that's about as close to himbothering to describe anything
as a source. He's really not interested in
telling us anything in terms of chronology or detail.
(13:37):
What he wants to convey is what he's discovered, which is the
world of the Sabbath. And the book is really basically
a extended description of the witch's Sabbath, which he's
cobbled together from quotationsfrom the the witnesses that he
had interviewed. What was a Sabbath and how did
(13:58):
his differ from other European Sabbaths?
Partly because of Pietilanqua, the witch's Sabbath has always
been associated with the Basque.In his the second edition of his
famous book, he even commissioned a Paris engraver to
include an engraving of what theWitcher Sabbath looks like,
(14:22):
which is quite an interesting thing to think about because the
Witcher Sabbath takes place at night.
Only witches are meant to be there or witches and these
witnesses then taken against their will.
But in theory, only witches are meant to be there and the devil.
And it should not be accessible to normal bias Christian eyes.
And it's only really accessible to the judges through the
(14:45):
testimony of those who went there and and yet here get
along. Chris even includes an engraving
the big thing what is meant to have looked like and Kayla Lanka
is really obsessed by the Sabbath.
Like when he finds out locationswhere the Sabbath is meant to
have been held, he goes there just to see if he can find any
evidence. He claims at one point that he
(15:06):
found from a marking that he canfound where the bots of the
witch's Sabbath where the poisons and potions were cooked
that he couldn't find the part where the Sabbath was held.
So the so the Sabbath is really,really associated with the
Basque Country. And that's also because the
testimony that be along with andgathers up about a Sabbath is
(15:29):
much more sensational than any other Sabbath testimony gathered
from anywhere else. Stories about which a Sabbath
are often quite commonplace, butone story that you might know or
that in that your listeners might know, is that witches were
meant to consume the bodies of dead babies at a Sabbath.
But what the what the busts do is that apparently they go into
(15:52):
cemeteries and dig up the bodiesof dead witches and that the
devil gives them special dentures so that at the Sabbath
they can eat the bodies of dead witches.
So there's a lot of really bizarre graphic detail that
really is highly unusual, and there's nothing really similar
to it in what survives of sort of European Sabbath narratives.
(16:17):
That engraving his rather incredible of everything with
all the different panels depicting everybody's different
involvement. The children guarding the toads
is probably my favorite piece ofthat.
Yeah, yeah. So I had a whole chapter in the
book where so basically I take every little fragment, every
(16:37):
little vignette and use it to decode the surviving testimony.
Then and then then boy, comparing the French material
that Catalan cruise gathered up,we have the material that the
Spanish inquisitors scattered up.
You can actually see how much ofthis material comes from the
Basque country. That's not to say that any of
these stories was were real. It's just that a lot of this is
(17:01):
folkloric beliefs inside the Basque Country.
And that to me it really explains why someone like
Catalan crept ended up writing this book because he didn't
arrive in the Basque country of preconceived ideas of of that
are adapts a specific like he presumably had read his malaise
Maleficarum before traveling to the Basque Country.
So to me knows books like the Malaya's and Martin del Rio's
(17:26):
book, the the person I wrote on before I worked on cattle and
grow. Certainly he knows those books.
But then he arrives in the Basque Country and then he has
all these witnesses tell him these extraordinary stories
that, you know, that, as he himself said, were never
reported in any of the literature that he'd read.
And that's part of his motivation to to write his book
is basically to show his readers.
(17:48):
Look at what I found here, whichis a very different, I think a
reason for writing than what most authors or most, most
historians have have said about get along with that.
He wrote his book as a way of justifying his witch hunt.
So that's not what he is interested in.
It's more like this is amazing material and everyone needs to
(18:08):
know about this. You've read about a debate that
was going on about whether the Sabbath was a real physical
event or whether it was more an illusion or imaginary.
Can you explain that? This is particularly the case in
Spain with Inside a Spanish Inquisition and that the Spanish
(18:30):
Inquisitors really argued amongst themselves whether or
not the Sabbath that they were exploring whether or not that
was a real thing or whether or not it was entirely imaginary.
And when I say imaginary, I meanthat what they were wondering
whether whether or not it happened or whether or not the
devil made them think it happened.
And that if the devil made them think it happened.
(18:52):
So for instance, they were sleeping and in their sleep the
devil made them think that they traveled to the Sabbath, whether
or not these people were then still legally responsible.
Are you still a witch if you dream that you went to the
Sabbath rather than if you actually flew to the Sabbath
from on a goat? And these are the types of like
really faxing legal questions that the Inquisition in
(19:15):
particular got really obsessed by.
Then on the Spanish side, it really seems that those types of
debates ultimately frustrated any further action against the
witches. Piet Alankra seems not to be
interested in this at all. For him, the Sabbath was a real
thing, and witches deserved to die for going to the Sabbath.
(19:36):
But the Spanish Inquisition is avery bureaucratic institution.
It's also very legally minded. They were also saying we cannot
prosecute these refugees from France, these people accused of
witchcraft of fled into Spain because they haven't committed
any witchcraft here in Spain, which is quite a fun sort of
(19:59):
thing to think about if you think about it because.
If you made it back to the devil, why does it matter that
you made it back to the devil inFrance as opposed to Spain?
But that is the sort of like legal consideration that they
really thought about in the Inquisition.
And is there anything we need tounderstand about the French
(20:19):
legal framework with witch trials?
That's a really good question because it gets to the reason
why Pierre de Longue was send in.
The thing about the French legalsystem is that it's highly
bureaucratic in a different way,in that they have lots of
appeals processes and that if you are accused of witchcrafts
(20:42):
or any other crime, then there will be a trial in Bayonne.
But that file couldn't be appealed to Bordeaux.
In Bordeaux, you'd have maybe 15judges looking over your your
case, and all of those judges needed baying.
And one of the things that's so interesting about the surviving
(21:04):
material, the few surviving archival materials, is that a
lot of them are invoices and a lot of them are like account
book listing the costs. And it really brings out the
high cost of French justice. So one of the reasons then why
the Basque communities on the French side really wanted this
outside Commission and was because it would make witch
(21:25):
hunting a lot cheaper. Because it meant that you didn't
have to transport your witches from the Basque Country to
Bordeaux, which was about 5 daystravel at the time.
And you wouldn't have to house them and feed them there.
You wouldn't have to pay all of those judges.
You only needed to pay the two judges on your witchcraft
Commission. The there were actually some
(21:47):
strong financial motives for creating a witchcraft Commission
because it meant that they couldact.
The judges could act in the Basque Country and they could
act without any possibility of appeal.
So the main thing to notice about the the French side is
it's just like the high cost of,of justice in France.
The Commission you mentioned before, they worked for four
(22:11):
months, and how were they able to work so much more quickly
than regular justice? There are a few factors there.
I think the, the main thing is that that there was no
possibility of appeal. And this is something that the
Bordeaux Parliament, which is the the court of Pietilanco
himself was part of. That's the appeals court in
(22:32):
Bordeaux. The parliament really resisted
registering. There's the King Henry the Force
edict setting up this witchcraftCommission because I think they
were like, we want do we get paid?
And I think can be maybe that, yeah, it can be that crude.
So the fact that there was no longer any forms of appeal meant
that they could act more quickly.
(22:54):
The fact that they literally traveled from community to
community and I don't know how accurate or complete my
reconstruction has been, but like looking at these invoices
and comparing it with dates thatget along could casually
management. I've been able to create a map
as to sort of like where they were at any given point in time,
I think. And then you can still get a
(23:15):
sense as to they travel to a village, they would prosecute
the witches there and then they would execute them there and
then they would move on to the next village.
And that obviously went a lot quicker than having to send all
of those witches and the witnesses accusing them, sending
all of them to Bordeaux. And therefore is quite plausible
to me that they actually did endup executing 50-60, maybe more
(23:43):
people in that four months period.
You had mentioned that there wasa history of witchcraft
accusations in the Basque Country.
How was that a perfect expression of a conflict there?
So a big part of my argument about this witch hunt is sort of
(24:03):
that it's really significant that it took place in the border
region. France and Spain in the early
17th century were the two major European powers and they were
almost always at war with one another.
Spain at the time had you know avast empire and of course like
(24:23):
from an American come context, you will know about the Spanish
empire in the Americas. But in Europe the kings of Spain
were also the Dukes of Milan so northern Italy.
They also were in charge of whatwas good done then called the
Spanish Netherlands, which is now Belgium.
There were a number of territories to the east of
(24:44):
France that owed their allegiance to Spain.
So as you can see that Spain almost encircles France at a
time. So Spain and France did not
really get along. And the Basque Country, in
particular, the town of city of Bayonne really is like the entry
point between France and Spain because France and Spain are
(25:07):
separated by the Pyrenees, the destiny territory of the Beta
labor did this part of the Basque Country that is in France
is like the first French line ofthe fence against Spain, which
makes it really important for the French monarchy that people
in the Beta labor are all happy and harmonious and working
(25:28):
together at this the just in case the Spanish invade.
But what then also happens is that because of that and because
Paris is so far away, it also means that actually it's very
difficult for the kings of France to assert their authority
in a territory like the beta laborer because they need to
keep everyone happy. It's far away.
(25:51):
How do you assert your authority?
So there's actually, as a result, constant conflicts
between the communities and towns of the beta laborer, where
they all argue about scarce resources, and also between the
nobles and the towns where it's really clear to that the towns
are by French standards, we havea lot of rights.
(26:13):
They're incredibly independent. And the nobles are like, they
look at what nobles in other parts of France are getting away
with and they're like, we want that too.
So there's actually a lot of conflicts and it's quite
difficult to see how that conflict links to the witch
hunts, except that it's clear that it did in the sense that it
(26:34):
you can see how people from 1 faction accuse other people from
the opposite faction of witchcraft.
So again, there is maybe a parallel there with some of the
stuff that's been written about Salem.
But I think it's really important to say that we should
never see which accusations as just a tool of a cynical tool of
accusing the other. I think it's also very natural
(26:57):
to believe the worst of an enemyand that if you are engaged in a
long running dispute that you would be willing to believe that
your enemy would make a pact with the devil.
But these conflicts are really gradually tearing this this
territory apart. And actually then sending a
group of commissioners in from the outside seems like the best
(27:19):
way of solving this problem. But then of course, one of the
commissioners is Cadel Ankara and he is a a water sex grace
maniac who was fascinated by by by the devil.
So he's watered the wrong personto sort out the many different
conflicts that exist in this territory.
Yeah, on the subject you got into at the end, his sex
(27:44):
obsession, what's the deal with that?
Why was he so utterly obsessed with the sex lives of especially
the beautiful women and the teenagers?
It's really what is working so that when you read his his
descriptions, he constantly liketalks about how bewitching the
(28:07):
the Basque women are. And he also really represents
the Basque Country as a femininespace.
And to some extent, he's actually justified by doing that
because the main economic foundation of the Basque Country
is fishing and whaling and sort of the menfolk are all off.
Actually. Some of them go as far away as
(28:28):
like the Canadian Maritimes to go hunts for whales.
So in Catalan, his imagination, that means that the women and
both men and priests are just all that's left in the Basque
Country. And as a result, the devil is
very easy to infiltrate the space and seduce the women.
So, yeah, so the Basque Country and it's womenfolk are clearly
(28:49):
like an obsession of his. And he describes Basque women in
their dress. That included two contemporary
engravings of Basque women and how they dressed.
And it's quite unusual. So we'll buy the book because,
yes, you can look at some imagesthere.
So he's clearly so taken, taken by, by, by, by how they looked.
(29:13):
I think there is also maybe an important factor here that he
doesn't speak Basque and he usesinterpreters.
So he cannot actually get to what these people are saying
except through an interpreter. But he can scrutinize the bodies
of the witnesses and witches andthey give him some sort of like
direct access to this demonic story that the testimony in some
(29:39):
sense doesn't. So I think there are a number of
factors there that sort of come together.
But yeah, as I write in the book, we we know he has an
illegitimate son. So if he's already married to
his wife, so there is definitelyevidence that he is a bit of a
sex best, let's put it that way the very least.
(30:00):
These demonology books and theirauthors, other men were reading
these other people, other authorities involved in
convicting witches were reading these.
It's so I just think that impactmust have really trickled
through the communities, the world, the ages.
Yeah, it's interesting because there is actually a relatively
(30:24):
contemporary German translation of get Along who's book, and it
has a sort of, I think Clyde revealing titles of the
wonderful secrets of witches. And that sort of I think really
like testifies is what Pedlanko is revealing here is like this
exotic author quite sexually explicit.
Like he also talks a great length about the size and shape
(30:44):
of the devil's penis. Like there's really strange
remarkable worlds that he's uncovered.
But it's also like fair to say that the tableau, which so
that's the main text of Catalan provides, it goes only through
two editions. So it's not the malaious
Malafakaram where it's not Martin Douglio's disc was a
Jonas. Like it's as far as early modern
(31:06):
neurological text goes. It's actually not really quite a
bestseller. So it's quite and I don't quite
conquer and explain why it wasn't more successful at the
time, but at the same time get along quick keeps on writing
about witches. So after he has to blow, he
writes two more books about witches, the last apparently for
(31:31):
his own personal entertainment. That's literally what the
contract with the publisher says.
It's only it was only printed in40 copies and therefore only
three or four copies still survive to this day.
You put all the pages of those books together, you get through
about 1700 pages about witches and demons and other to the
(31:51):
related supernatural things. And that does make him, I would
argue I haven't found anyone else.
Maybe in response to this interview someone will come up
with with a counter example, butI think he would name he may
very well be the the burst of who was filled to most pages on
demonology in the entire early modern period, because 1700
(32:15):
pages is a lot. Yeah, when books of.
That time were generally pretty sure that these were some real
opuses. Yeah, very.
Much, Yeah. The only other thing I would
bring up is that I also want to spend some time about the way
this witch hunt ends because. I think often people.
(32:40):
Think that witch hunting ends once the witch hunter backs up
his back and leaves. And that's like a traditional
story that has been told about the witch hunt in the Basque
Country. It's like get along and his
colleague, their four months areover, they returned to Bordeaux
and then that's that basically, but.
(33:01):
The. Evidence that survived shows
that there is substantial panic about witches persisting in the
Basque Country across the 16 dens.
Almost like a full decade after the judges leave, there are
still people being panicked about witches, people going to
visiting missionaries and confess that they were witches.
(33:23):
And there's lots of stuff still happening.
So my book doesn't end in six year online.
My book ends in 1619, and it ends there because it's a that
moment where I think that the witch hunt really ends because
one thing that happens with the border is that there is another
group of refugees, but this timefleeing from Spain into.
(33:46):
France, rather. Than witches fleeing from France
into Spain. And these refugees are religious
refugees. They are new Christians.
So these are people who whose ancestors have been forced to
convert from Judaism and Islam and but were suspected by the
imposition of having reverted tothe faith of their ancestors.
(34:07):
And they they flee across the border.
And obviously the Basque Country, because it's just
across the border, is a place where a lot of them settle.
And it seems like a lot of thesefears about witches are
displaced. They move from witches to these
new these refugees, and in 1619,one of these refugees, a
Portuguese woman called KaterinaFernandez, ends up being lynched
(34:33):
by a mob in the small town of Saint John the loose and and the
way that event is described to me sounds very similar to the
fears that's around witches a decade earlier.
We can have a really, I think interesting discussion as well
as like how do witch hunts end? Because I don't think they end
(34:54):
simply because a judge leaves when because they cast so much
Banach in the territory and thatlingered.
And I think those fears were transferred onto another group
of victims who were then ultimately cast out and expels
from the Basque Country. I'm really glad that you.
Wanted to speak about that it's your your book really is going
(35:18):
to expand people's understandingof humans and witchcraft fears
put on innocent people. But I think the ending thing,
they haven't ended in our world and they don't just have that
final chapter. So we do need to get there.
(35:40):
But it when you thank. You for sharing.
That because I it's an example of how communities.
Have that panic. And it doesn't just, it's not
just over because the judge left, as you said.
And how that fear can be transferred.
Yeah, I said. What in my.
Epilogue and didn't want to apply the full conclusion, but I
(36:02):
wrote a a short epilogue. But I as of idea, I think
witchcraft is still with us. But I think previous historians,
even just 5 or 10 years ago, people would those historians
would all be writing about witchcraft as a thing that like
in the past. And yet I think these days, I
think we're so much more aware about how there is different
(36:26):
ways in which people think aboutwitches, like how which is
witchcraft was feel was fueled by fears about the other that
transcend like just the categoryof which and how conspiracy
theories are not something that has just just belonged to the
past. There are very much present in
the present as well. We should never see these
stories, as I think the witch hunt has often been portrayed as
(36:49):
a story of like, reason triumphing over superstition,
because that's not how these witch hunts ended.
There is, at least the Basque witch hunt did not end because
people woke up and looked aroundand thought to themselves, like,
what are we doing? It's like it seems to have ended
in a form of transfer theorems of fears of one group of
(37:10):
outsiders to another group of outsiders.
And it seems to have ended because of an act of like
popular violence rather than like an act of radical
enlightenment of whatever shape.And I think that's probably true
for the the witch hunt bit. Large in the early.
Modern period, I don't think which witchcraft police were
ever defeated by rational argument right that whole.
(37:34):
Enlightenment into the witch trials narrative has prevailed
for a long time and. I'm finding.
Myself growing out of that, thatrealizing that witch trials just
went underground and became these extrajudicial actions and
(37:56):
that has continued around the world.
Yes, a colleague. Of mine here in the UK, Bill
Pulley, who's at the University of Bristol, I don't know if
you've had a chance to interviewhim yet, but he he works on
witchcraft believes in 19th century France and there you can
see how it's no longer than likethe witches for appear in front
(38:18):
of a judge. It is people who have killed
witches who appear in front of judges and then in many
instances actually like they arelet go or they're released or
there's a jury who refuses to convict.
The story of like how the witch hunt ends is a story that is
continuing in the present day, Ithink.
(38:39):
And it's not a story that that has a very neat and uplifting
ending either. Yeah, certainly not.
Yet I think. That we're all working towards
that ending though, inside one way or another.
I think that's one of the reallyimportant ways that your podcast
contributes to to those discussions.
(39:00):
Thank you. I it is uplifting to see that
from academics and from people who are literally advocating and
rescuing folks. There's space for this
conversation now and there's lots of conversation to have.
Looking at the history gives us an opportunity to ask important
(39:21):
questions about humanity, ones that are questions that are
relevant today, that were relevant then too.
So thanks for your book is so enjoyable to read.
It really brought questions to mind of other witch hunt
histories that I. Read and study on.
(39:42):
So I just, it's a really great tool, but it tells a story that
people need to hear about the Basque Country and its people as
well. Thank you.
Well, thank you so much. Again, for having me, it's been
a real pleasure to to speak to the two of you and it's also
been an honor to be invited ontothis podcast because I know
you've attributed. Quite a number of very famous
(40:04):
people already. So it's it's honor, it's an
honor to join that particular list as well.
So thank you, thank you and. When is your book available and
how can people get their hands on it?
It's on till. Now we haven't checked the price
in dollars, but I think in at least in, in pounds and EUR,
it's quite reasonably priced. I'm hoping that it would reach a
(40:26):
wider audience and that people who are interested in finding
out more about to buzz witch hunts and fine and as as A2 if
you did so I'm placed that into a wider history that they're
they'll be interested in in buying it.
But yeah, I'm not sure we'll hitevery bookstore in in the world,
but it's certainly accessible onon all the major online
retailers at I think a quite affordable price.
(40:50):
Thank you, Jan. Now.
Mary Bingham returns with an allnew minute with Mary.
Harris agree. Regarding.
Three women over a span of 82 years, all accused of
witchcraft, who boldly defended themselves, standing in the
truth, though they knew that death was their outcome.
(41:11):
Maria Dasha Chute from Navarre, northern Spain, repeatedly
denied that she was a witch, though making a false confession
would have most likely resulted in a pardon for her.
Maria paid with her life in 1610.
Ann Hibbens, a well educated woman who was tried twice and
(41:31):
boldly declared her innocence. Ann was hanged at Boston Neck in
Boston, MA in 1656. Mary Este, a pillar in her
Topsfield, Massachusetts community, was arrested,
released, and then yet arrested again in 1692.
(41:52):
She never wavered while being badgered by the magistrates,
even authoring 2 petitions, 1 advising the magistrates how to
proceed with the trials after her death.
The strength of character of these three women is inspiring
beyond anything that I could ever imagine.
(42:12):
Thank you. Thank you, Mary.
And now Sarah has this. Week's edition of In Witch Hunts
News. On our end, Witch Hunt's.
New segment Today we're highlighting a crucial human
rights issue affecting persons with albinism.
The Africa Albinism Network is campaigning to have sunscreen
(42:32):
added to the World Health Organization's Essential
Medicines list. This campaign is driven by
compelling evidence from the 2023 report by Maluca and MIDI
Drummond, the UN independent expert on the enjoyment of human
rights by persons with albinism.Her findings under score.
A critical truth for people withalbinism, sunscreen isn't merely
(42:54):
a cosmetic luxury, it's a vital,life saving medical necessity
that can significantly extend and enhance their quality of
life. We strongly support the rights
and protection of persons with albinism.
Ending their persecution and ensuring their safety is
fundamental to upholding human dignity and rights.
Making sunscreen more accessibleby including it on the World
(43:16):
Health Organization's Essential Medicines list would
significantly improve affordability and access for
those who need it most. Do you want to learn about this
issue or get directly involved in supporting persons with
albinism? Here's an excellent opportunity.
On Thursday, October 24th at 2:00 PM GMT time.
There's an important webinar youshould know about Sunscreen as
(43:39):
Essential Medicine, a climate justice webinar.
It's being hosted by CBM Global Disability Inclusion, the Africa
Albinism Network, the Fund for Global Human Rights, and Climate
Action Network Europe. This virtual event will dive
into the crucial campaign to addsunscreen to who's essential
medicines list for persons with albinism, framing it as both a
(44:01):
human rights and climate justiceissue.
You can learn how you can actively support this vital
campaign. It's a chance to engage in a
critical conversation on human rights and climate justice,
particularly for one of the mostvulnerable populations affected
by climate change. We've included the registration
link in our show notes. Remember, your participation can
make a real difference in this important 'cause.
(44:24):
Recently, Josh and I had the privilege of meeting and
engaging with Maluca Ann MIDI Drummond at the Witchcraft and
Human Rights Conference in Lancaster.
During our interactions, we gained valuable insight into the
critical importance of ensuring the enjoyment of human rights by
persons with albinism. Maluca Ann's expertise and
passion for this cause left a lasting impression on us.
(44:45):
Following the conference, she shared a powerful statement that
directly relates to art and witch Hunt's mission.
She said. Well, this week I was at
Lancaster University attending aconference on the UN Resolution
on the Elimination of Harmful Practices related to accusations
of witchcraft and ritual attacks.
Around the world, people continue to lose their lives and
(45:05):
livelihoods due to witchcraft accusations, or in the case of
persons with albinism, for example, witchcraft related
practices. Whether you believe in
witchcraft or not, it cannot be denied that people are dying
because of it, and we cannot continue to relegate the topic
to the Isles of history in fiction, while the rights of so
many are violated and quote our conversation with Melaleuca and
(45:28):
reinforced our understanding that protecting the rights of
persons with albinism is not just a matter of policy, but a
fundamental aspect of human dignity.
It's clear that addressing harmful practices and ensuring
full human rights for persons with albinism are interconnected
and crucial goals. How will you use your unique
skills, authority, agency, and platform to advocate for persons
(45:52):
with albinism? Your collaboration is needed
now. Thank you, Sarah.
You're welcome. Thank you for joining us for
this episode. Of witch hunt.
Join us every week. Have a great today and a.
Beautiful tomorrow.
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