Can You Eat "Clean" Without Food Guilt in an Ultra-Processed World? (Alana Bonnemann) | Ep 328 - Wits & Weights | Fat Loss, Nutrition, & Strength Training for Lifters

Episode Transcript
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Philip Pape (00:01):
If you've ever looked at your grocery list and
wondered, am I buying the rightfoods?
And you've read everyingredient label, or you feel
guilty about enjoying meals offriends because they don't fit
your clean standards, thisepisode is for you.
The rise of social media gurushas created a culture of fear
around food, where everythingseems potentially harmful, from

(00:22):
anything in a package to evenfresh fruits and vegetables.
Potentially harmful fromanything in a package to even
fresh fruits and vegetables.
My guest today reveals why thisfear-based approach to eating
might be worse for your healththan the occasional indulgence.
You'll discover what's moreimportant than perfectly
adhering to your diet, how tonavigate grocery shopping
without paranoia and some tipsto enjoy eating again without
sacrificing your health andfitness goals.

(00:42):
Stop letting food fear controlyour life and learn how to build
sustainable, enjoyable eatinghabits that actually improve
your health long-term.
Welcome to Wits and Weights,the show that helps you build a
strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering and
efficiency.

(01:03):
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday we're discussing how to
make food choices in our modernworld without falling prey to
fear, guilt and obsession.
In a food environment dominatedby processing, by
ultra-palatability hard word tosay and with social media
constantly bombarding us withconfusing and conflicting
nutrition advice.

(01:24):
Many people are scared of theirfood choices.
My guest today is AlanaBonneman, a naturopathic
nutritionist who specializes inhelping women reconnect with
their bodies and findsustainable approaches to
nutrition, which is what we'reall about here as well.
She guides clients away fromrestrictive diets and toward
nourishing foods that supportabundant energy, balanced

(01:45):
hormones and optimal health, andshe is the host of the Health
After 30 podcast, so give that afollow, because there's a
conversation with us on there aswell.
Today, you'll learn why yourrelationship with food matters
more than perfect adherence toclean eating, how to approach
processed foods without fear,and some tips to make food
choices that work for yourlifestyle and health goals.

(02:05):
Alana, good to see you again.
Welcome back.
Welcome to the show.

Alana Bonnemann (02:09):
Yeah, thank you , Welcome back yeah we just had
a wonderful episode on theHealth After 30 as well, so it's
really good to be here.

So on that show we talked about lifting, we talked
about nutrition and lifestyleand all that.
Today, I really want to diginto the topic of food fear and
the environment and kind of howpeople make choices.
The first question that comesto mind then is, like what is
going on when people are afraidof food?
Like why is that even a thing?
Let's start there.

Well, I mean, that's a learned behavior, right
.
Why are we afraid of food?
And that comes down to, perhaps, the psyche of things.
Also, perhaps we could even gointo the food rules that we've
been taught.
So this comes not only fromsociety and Instagram and all
the rest of it, but also whatwe've been taught at home.
If you've ever heard or maybeyou might even say it yourself

(02:58):
no, you probably don't, but it'ssomething that I definitely
heard when I was growing up upthat you need to finish all the
food on your plate in order toget dessert.
You know things like this, oryeah, you have to.
What's another?

food rule yeah, clean your plate.
No, you're right yeah, yeah.

My grandmother would always say you know, if
you leave any rice on your plate, that's the amount of holes
that your partner's going tohave in their face when they're
older, like terrible, why that'sso arbitrary.
So we kind of grow up withthese understandings of what
food is.
And also, you know, finishing aplate in order to get dessert,
that means it's also puttingthis dessert and sweet stuff on

(03:37):
a pedestal as well.
So this distorted idea of whatfood is and how it serves us and
how we should be eating it,rather than what we think we
should be eating, becomes really, really difficult.

Yeah, yeah, and there's a should in there that I
think is important, the wordshould and rules, and that
really hits me hard because youand I were chatting, I think,
off the record about just ourhistory with that.
So then the converse of this islike what would a world look
like where people didn't havefear, guilt, morality related to
food?

(04:10):
Like what is that ideal visionIf there was never any of this
conditioning these food rules,anything else, what would that
look like to you?

The thing is you know what you feel good on.
If you pay attention, you willknow what foods make you feel
light and agile and focused andfull of energy and vitality.
And you know the foods thatdon't make you feel that way.
It's just that in today'ssociety, when that's set up, the
foods that don't make us feelso good, so that means perhaps

(04:38):
sluggish, constipated, bloated,sedative you know, in a way
they're just really deliciousand they're designed to be
delicious and that's not withyour health in mind.
That's obviously in the mindsto make, make money or make
business or, you know, just tobasically sell things that are
delicious.
This is not to say that thosethings are bad.

(05:00):
Food is food.
It comes down to okay, how muchshould can we, how much do we
thrive on of that?
And that comes down to theability to be able to listen to
your body.
So when you say how does anideal world look like?
It's different for everyone,because everyone needs different
things.
How much do you exercise?
How much do you move?

(05:20):
How's your stress levels?
Where are you at in what stageof your life depends on how much
we need to be eating.
But knowing what foods youthrive on and what foods you
don't, and if you went a littlebit there then you would get a
good understanding of what youshould be eating.

Two corollary questions come up from this
Cause.
I love.
I love how you got into that,like you know what you feel good
on.
The first question that comesto mind people might wonder is
what if someone has been eatinga certain way for so long that,
at least in their own narrativeor their mind, they don't feel
that that's true, that theycan't claim that they know what
they feel good on, perhapsbecause they haven't given

(05:57):
themselves the opportunity tosee the difference?
Is that a thing?

So they've been following dogmatically we
talked about as well a certainway.
So perhaps what's their goalthere and why are they doing it
and are they feeling their best?
And it's often funny if you askpeople like how are you, how is
your life, we usually willanswer oh well, as an Australian
, we answer yeah, great,everything's good, I feel well,

(06:26):
I feel productive.
But if you start to stripthings back and you dive into
well, how are we sleeping forwomen?
How are you menstruating?
How are your bowel movements?
How is your energy?
Do you need to rely on coffeeto get through the day?
If you start to kind of dig intothat, then you might get some
clues into what's working andperhaps what's not working as

(06:48):
well.
So a lot of the time whenchecking into your body which I
think it really comes down tounderstanding what you need is
getting in contact with yourbody, which is, let's be fair, a
lost art.
We don't know how to do itbecause it's kind of been
drummed out of us or you know,just basically forgotten is our
mind takes over.

(07:09):
So if we're reading all theliterature which I know is
important and we need to know weneed to know what's happening
and how our bodies function andhow different things work in our
bodies.
This is why the academic side ofnutritional science is so
wonderful, but if we just relyon that and we believe or we
kind of put ourselves into thatstatistic of what that certain
research says, it takes us awayfrom us knowing what we need,

(07:33):
what you need, what theindividual needs.
So I think at the base of this,it comes down to trust,
understanding and feeling how totrust yourself and to be able
to let go of things that youthink might be serving you,
perhaps are serving you but alsomight not be serving you.

(07:54):
What you said really nicely onmy podcast was you know you can
take everything away but thenreintroduce things, start to
bring things in and see, youknow if your world crashes you
didn't say that, but you know.
Basically, see if thingscrumble and I I really agree
with that approach and if you'vebeen living in a restricted,
start to bring things in and seehow it works and then you can

(08:18):
go from there.

Yeah.
So what you're saying, fromwhat I hear, is being
intentional and taking a momentto breathe and think and reflect
on your life, because I thinkpeople do make the excuse, maybe
about their food choices ortheir habits, and that's okay,
right, like people, that's humanbehavior.
But then to say, okay, I needto look at how, when I eat that

(08:42):
protein bar, when I eat thisfood or drink this at this time
of day, what is the cascade ofdata?
I'll call it data is whatyou're telling me.
It's funny Cause we we jokeabout, like me being the
sciencey guy and you being morefluid, but at the end of the day
, we're still being intentionaland observing and at the end,
that's that's what data is right.
So, to trust yourself, you wantto define yourself and your

(09:10):
identity and what's happening inthis moment, and then it sounds
like you can make changes fromthere.
Let me ask you this youmentioned how food science and
the food industry makes food sodelicious, and does that mean
that the foods that are good foryou can't be delicious?
Now, obviously it's a leadingquestion, but let's address that
.

Yeah, well, you know Michael Pollan right?
He's an American-based author.
He has a little book calledFood Rules, which I mean I find
food rules to be a funny name,but he says which will kind of
segue into my answer he's gotthese different rules and one of
them is when you go shopping,it's to shop the periphery of

(09:42):
the supermarket, so you walk inand you walk into the fresh
produce and then on theperipheries it's usually
freezers.
That's how it is in Australia,that's how it is in Germany, I
assume in the States andbasically everywhere that's how
it is.
In the middle of a supermarketis aisles of canned, packaged
foods.
They're foods with additives.
They're there to basically havelong shelf lives, emulsifiers

(10:05):
and lists that go quite long,and you know they need to be
able to hold flavor and theyneed to be able, yeah, to be
palatable.
So they do these foods tastegood, but they might not feel
good also just because of thedifferent ingredients that are
in them as well.

(10:25):
I think your question was canhealthy foods taste good?
Is that what you're alluding to?
I mean, the thing is and I willbe honest here when I first got
into the health space, when Ifirst started studying nutrition
, I remember learning about allof the different benefits that
nutrition can have.
You know whether it wasanti-inflammatory, for

(10:47):
cardiovascular, for skin, forgut, for mood, for like, all the
different things that tricksand tips that you could do in
order to have a good diet.
And I was not eating for thejoy of eating, I was eating for
the benefits of eating.
So it didn't matter if ittasted good or not.
Like, for example, a proteinbar, do they taste that good?

(11:09):
Like they do the trick to get abit of protein in, but are they
like?
Do they taste that good?
So you know whether we needthis amount of protein or this
amount of fiber.
I think making sure that you'regetting the right things, but
also enjoying what you eat doesplay a huge like.
It plays a huge part on it.
Eating, like in cultures, it'ssuch a huge part of what we do.

(11:32):
We do it several times a day.
It connects people.
It connects with yourself.
You know it is.
It's the first thing we do.
When we are like bottle fed orbreastfed in a nurturing
situation by our primarycaregiver.
You know they're there with us.
So eating is a huge part ofwhat we do and to some extent.
Yes, it should be enjoyable andit can be enjoyable.

And I love that.
And, of course, I ask a lot ofleading questions or a lot of
kind of questions from a placeof skepticism for the person
listening.
I love food, I'm a huge foodie.
I love to prepare nutritiousfoods and make them taste good
and, honestly, if I'm trying toeat something like, let's say,
brussels sprouts, because I knowthey're cruciferous and they
have these nutrients and I heardthey taste good, and yet my
whole life I've had exposure toonly boiled, canned Brussels

(12:17):
sprouts that make me gag.
And then I try fresh, roastedBrussels sprouts with a little
bit of salt and they're divine,like this totally different food
.
I think that's important.
Like I've seen people commentno, it's not about enjoying your
food, it's about fuel or it'sabout nutrition, and it's not,
it's a human experience.
So I think that's why I wantedto ask that early in this
episode, so that people, youknow, give themselves the

(12:38):
permission to enjoy food, toactually seek out delicious ways
to prepare, to purchase theingredients, everything, but
also understand when we saytasty or delicious or whatever.
What do we mean?
And if you eat Oreos and theyspike your dopamine but then you
know you got some rumblies inyour tumbly right, like Winnie
the Pooh would say maybe there'ssomething off that doesn't work

(12:59):
for you Now.
Granted, I personally I couldeat an Oreo every now and then
when I'm in a bulking phase andit's whatever, but I'm actually
thinking of it then as just fastsugary nutrition for a lifter
in a tiny, tiny percentage of mycalories.

That's so interesting.
So you see food in that respect, and I guess that's it.
You're seeing food as serving apurpose for gain or loss.

It's a carve out.
It's a carve out for if I haveto eat 4,000 calories, I
literally am not going to enjoyall 4,000 calories.
Probably that's a differenttopic for a different day.

Some people will, some people will eat all
whole foods and it's more power,I mean, but I would I mean,
yeah, I guess I would maybe puthoney, or that's interesting
because, yes, if you start tosee just the calorie impact of
the from an Oreo, of what youcan get compared to, I never
thought about that, to be honest.
So I've never bulked, so it'snever been, it's never been

(13:56):
something that I've had to thinkof.
And even for those who I workwith, you know it's like feel
good weight, sometimes it isweight gain.
Okay, then how can we do it?
And I usually do it with wholefoods, but I never thought to,
never crossed my mind.

Yeah, so, okay.
So now I have another questionfor you, then.
Do you think people should bestriving for a 100% whole food
diet, or that there should besome carve out or allowance or
whatever term you use forwhatever you know ice cream,
baked goods, donuts, pizza,whatever.

Yes, I, I straight up, I say eat cake and
feel great, like not.
I mean, you're on the same page.
It's not about restrictions,but I think the difference
between eating a food like anOreo in order to get a result is
different to I shouldn't eatthis food.
Go back to your first question,because the whole point is like
, because that's bad and I can'teat this cake, it's not the
cake.
You know, if you eat cake sevendays a week, your body's going

(14:53):
to feel it.
Your body's probably going toask for something like a salad.
But likewise, if you're justeating salad seven days a week,
your body's going to ask forsomething like a cake.
So no, and when you eat thiscake, you want to not feel bad.
You don't want it to be aterrible experience If your
whole purpose is to lose weight,build muscle, whatever it is

(15:15):
that you're trying to get withnutrition and then you're having
a piece of cake or whatever itis, and you feel bad for eating
it.
You quickly smash it down andthen you feel bad for eating it,
or you quickly smash it downand then you feel bad for eating
it.
That's actually equally goinginto that diet cycle of like I
want to get to a certain goal,I'm doing it, I'm motivated, I
had a weak point, I feel guilt,I feel shame, I'm pathetic.

(15:37):
Okay, I'm motivated again tolose weight again.
And it's just, that cycle isn'thelpful for anyone and it will
usually keep people stuck intheir let's call it a weight
loss journey or in their healthjourney in order to get to a
certain result.

Yeah, yeah, so so then, how does the language
change when you work withsomebody?
And they are, you know, let'sgo, let's reverse engineer it.
Somebody who's who's beensuccessful and gone through this
transformation and used tothink of foods as good or bad,
or had guilt or shame aroundcertain foods.
This binary thinking or moralthinking what does it look like
when you don't have that anymore?

(16:13):
What is the language someonewill use around, say, a
processed food that they justeat it because they want to eat
it and it's?
not there's no moral judgment.

Yeah.
So in order to get to thatplace of no moral judgment, we
need to actually address thelanguage that we're using
towards the foods.
The whole industry and I getcaught up as well doing it.
Sometimes we will call it foodgood or bad, healthy, unhealthy,
super junk food.
And just by doing that like Iwent to a cafe the other day and
it had clean like the cafe islike clean food, like acai bowl,

(16:45):
like whatever it was there andI was just, I just observed that
because that meant at this cafethat was clean, which meant the
burger across the world.
That's not clean, that's dirty.
So even if you are perhaps notfully aware of like that clean
or not, just the idea that it'snot healthy, it's not clean.
I'm going to have a burger, I'mdoing something bad.

(17:07):
Oh, like, I'm doing somethingnaughty.
I often hear that, oh, Ideserve a piece of cake.
It's something naughty.
It's not naughty to have apiece of cake or a burger.
If you do it intentionally, asthe one-off thing, and you enjoy
it, I think that's going to hitmore dopamine than eating it
and then feeling stress andguilt and shame afterwards.
That's probably adding more tothe stress and the imbalance of

(17:31):
your health in general if you'reseeing those foods as bad.
So you can start with thelanguage and this is you know.
When we say healthy, healthyfood, everyone kind of knows
what healthy is or unhealthy is,but by just labeling those
foods it really puts thatjudgment on the foods and then
also the people eating them getthat judgment whether it's

(17:53):
yourself eating it or if you'rejudging other people for eating
those foods as well.

Yeah, a hundred percent, it does, it does.
And I even have deep seated inmy brain when someone themselves
declares that they're noteating something because it's
quote unquote, unhealthy, andI'm there choosing to eat it.
I think, wait a minute, whatare you saying about me?
But then you know, it's likeback in your brain we want to
belong, we want to be part ofthat group and it kind of
isolates and singles people out.

(18:18):
So with this diet culturebecause that's really what it is
, this conditioning, the guiltand shame on food choices what
are the signs that people shouldlook for about themselves, to
kind of reflect?
on themselves with thisunhealthy food guilt and maybe
how it connects with theirwell-being.

I know we've talked about this a little bit,
but just so someone is moreaware of when and why they're
doing this.
Yeah, so I mean the dietculture like I grew up I I was
born in the 80s, grew up in the90s and this is when I think I
mean diet culture's been aroundfor ages, but it really hit home
.
Today we have more of this bodypositivity, but back in the 90s
heroin chic was in and peopleyou know this thin was almost

(19:00):
synonymous for healthy.
So it wasn't get healthy at anycost, it was get thin at any
cost.
And I've heard stories of womenwho used to just drink orange
juice and eat cotton balls toget healthy.
Not to get healthy, obviously,to get thin, and so like just

(19:21):
the idea to do that and this isperpetuated.
So we're trying to get thin, sowe hop on any crazy diet to
then get a certain result andthat's that's backwards.
That is not what we should bedoing.
The goal is to have energy.
The goal is to have afunctioning menstruation.
You know a monthly, not youknow painful bowel movements,

(19:46):
hair, skin and nails strong.
You know focus in your eyes andwhen you go to work you're
feeling productive and you'refeeling vital.
That's the goal, I think, andalso for me, that's again like
with this feel good weight.
The weight is actually aby-product of all of those
things.
I'll also throw sleep in thereas well, you know, cause that's

(20:06):
obviously important one, butthat's, you know, that's, it's a
by-product of you optimizingeach area of those of that life
and diet culture didn't do that.
It didn't do any of thatbecause it was all for getting
thin.
So the first thing is to kindof perhaps be aware of is it
about my body or is it about myhealth?

(20:26):
You know, I mean, you put youwork with people in weight loss
and weight loss.
You know making thesetransformations.
So what is it about in the end?
What's their true, what's theirtrue calling that they're
coming to you to work with?
And it usually is about thehealth, it's not about how they
look, although that is thecatalyst for people coming in.

(20:47):
So that's, I think, the firstplace to be aware of it.

Yeah, that is huge, because if you're chasing the
wrong goal, the feedback loop isnot going to align.
In other words, what you do mayreinforce that misaligned goal
and then you're going to keepgoing down that path rather than
the path you choose to go down.
And you're right when it comesto weight loss or even body
composition.
When it's more physical, someof the most inspiring stories I

(21:13):
hear from clients and justpeople in the general when they
start down the path of doingwhat you're doing is the
language around how they feel,the language around how other
people perceive them, notphysically, but like their
energy and their showing up intheir health and their
confidence, and that can be moreinspiring than anything, in my
opinion.
And then if you happen to havethe byproduct of the physical

(21:34):
side, that's great.
Now, what about something likewe talked about strength
training on my show?
What about somebody who doeshave a legitimate goal where
they're trying to add weight tothe bar and they're trying to
get stronger and therefore someof these goals need to align
with that?
But that is physical, not somuch about how they feel.
What are your thoughts on that?

Well, it's interesting, Cause when we
chatted, you were like, okay,this needs to happen.
People have to do weights, andyou know and I was like, oh,
that's so interesting Is that?
okay, you know it's a similarthing, different approaches, so
it's crazy.
So I take a very holisticapproach, very fluid approach,
as I said, I will often workwith.
What is your resistance?
What is your resistance togetting to a certain result?

(22:18):
Okay, I would just give anexample.
It's actually the opposite.
So it's the like losing ratherthan putting on.
But, for example, someone whocannot start to get moving a
client of mine comes to mind.
It's a story of, yeah, I wantto do it, but I can't actually
do it, like I'm not starting,they're not taking action.

(22:38):
It's like what's the resistancethere?
I get people to literally get apen and paper and every morning
, few pages writing down what'syour resistance and writing down
into the point where it getsuncomfortable and like why am I
even writing about this?
Keep writing, you will find thereason to what's resisting.

(22:58):
And so, for example, with thisclient, she came back to me.
She's like oh my gosh, when Iwas in primary school I was in a
sports lesson and I was runningand the PE instructor kind of
slapped her on the ass and fromthen on, like for her that was
just, it was so violating, andshe just shut down and from then

(23:19):
on she just stopped doingmovement.
So to get back to this point ofokay, what's at the root cause
of you not taking action and younot making change is a really
important factor to kind of getthrough that, understand that
and break, kind of break throughfrom that as well, and I think
you could kind of see it.
Yeah.

Yeah, so resistance .
So and the word I use for thatis friction it's the same idea
of like what is in the way,whether it's some short-term
thing you're struggling with orthe deeper what you suggested.
I had a guest on not long agoAdam Badger was his name, and he
talked about stress, and he wastalking about how, a lot of
times when something happens tous outside of us, we react in a

(24:00):
way that ramps up our stress,but that reaction is rooted in
something in our life thatcauses us to act that way where
someone else might not.
And so I love these ideas ofgetting further and further,
deeper into potential rootcauses, without driving
ourselves crazy, trying to likeunpackage our entire psyche on
day one right Cause it's aprocess.

Stephanie (24:20):
It's a process.

But I think that's really important.
So let's talk about youmentioned.
When we think of foods right, Ithink there's a spectrum of
processing.
Is is how a lot of people putit.
Do you ascribe to that idea ofcategorizing foods that way of
like, from minimally to ultraprocessed, and then alcohol
needs to be in there too, beinga toxin and kind of a unique

(24:42):
thing.
What are your thoughts on thatfor people?

listening.
Yeah, so there, I mean I thinkit's generally understood that
there's whole foods, processedfoods and then these highly
ultra processed foods.
And to kind of referenceMichael Pollan again, because I
really like his work, I think heeven calls it food-like
substances.

Okay, Just to make it sound gross, right?
Yeah, a little bit.

But so like, while I do see it like that, I
think you know logically I seeit like that but in the end food
is food, like everything that'sbeing sold at the supermarket
is kind of food.
So if you can imagine, like Ihave two children, I'm trying to
raise them up to not havehighly restrictive diets but to
understand that you are going tohave everything at your

(25:30):
fingertips, like once they're 16or even like even earlier, like
I don't.
We're not going to be able tocontrol whatever they're eating.
So it's the same for an adultas well.
You have access to everything.
And if you kind of see it allas food, and again it's actually
getting back into your body andunderstanding what actually
makes you feel good, versus thehighly processed stuff which,

(25:52):
while it tastes good, chancesare it's not going to be making
you feel good or function well.
So yes, and then also on abiochemical level, obviously,
when we've got all of theseingredients in these food-like
substances, they're notbenefiting the body in the way
in which whole foods benefit thebody as far as macro and micro
nutrients go.

(26:13):
So I mean, is it even aquestion to ask if it's out
there?
No, because they're obviouslyall available.
It's how we kind of associateourselves with all of them.
Again, I would I try not to callthem good or bad, because then
it puts you back into the oh,like this is bad, I'm doing
something bad.
That is elevating that stresslevel which we want to kind of

(26:35):
not, you know, like yeah, andit's also when we call salads
good as well.
It's just I'm just thinkingabout it because, like when
stress, when stress is involved,stress elevates every single
condition, whether it's a skincondition, whether it's a bowel
condition, whatever you have,any type of stress is going to
exacerbate that.

(26:55):
So it's the same thing whenyou're thinking about nutrition,
because so many people we cancontrol our nutrition, we eat
several times a day.
That's something that we cancontrol.
So when we're controlling ournutrition, we eat several times
a day.
That's something that we cancontrol.
So when we're controlling ournutrition and we're not, we're
doing things that we think arebad for us, then again this
stress is spiked and that'swhat's going to cascade with
every health concern in our body.
Nervous system regulation ishuge.

(27:16):
So I think, just be aware andbe mindful of the foods that are
out there and again, and it'shard because they're all
delicious and they're alladvertised to us in very
delicious ways.
But understanding what it isthat you want and understanding
what your body thrives on, andalso, if you're on a journey and

(27:38):
you want to get there, then youhave to be diligent.
Motivation discipline can onlypush you so far.
Well, discipline can actuallyget you probably a bit further
than motivation.
But you need you need tochallenge yourself as well.
In that space of challenge youdo grow.
And I think if you've just beenused to kind of having all
foods at once, it's going to bechallenging to change that.

(27:59):
But in that challenge you'llgrow.

And this is where we have a lot of overlap right
Is the idea that you arecreating a sense of awareness,
intention.
I like the word diligencebecause it strikes me as an
intentional perseverance andintentional decision-making,
informed decision-making.
It doesn't necessarily mean itrequires massive mental energy,
especially if you're reducingyour resistance, your friction,

(28:24):
like it can all come together ina way that's just pushing that
comfort zone slowly over timeand always improving, just like
in the gym where you don't jumpto a 400 pound deadlift on day
one, you start with the emptybar and you move slowly you
mentioned.
I want to get back to thefeeling good part and get more
objective and dig into that sothat the listener understands.

(28:45):
What does she mean by feelinggood?
A little story about my daughter.
We have two daughters, 11 and13.
And my oldest daughter, for awhile there had some anxiety
about going to restaurants and Ithink the reason was she had a
few experiences where it justdidn't work well for her system,
whatever she ate at arestaurant, because we eat so
much prepared at home and mywife is just a great cook and

(29:07):
she doesn't use many ingredientsand you know we go to a
restaurant like once every twoor three weeks and it's like all
the oils and sugars and fats,and again it's not the good or
bad, it's just how do you feelLike.
So she would do that and itwould get.
She eventually had a little bitof anxiety.
We said, hey, why don't we goout?
And she just wouldn't enjoy itat all, no matter what it was.
And eventually we started tobecome more intentional, like

(29:30):
you said with her about hey, weare going to a restaurant, let's
look at the menu, let's figureout together what might make
sense and then understand thatit's, you know, pretty close to
what mommy makes at home.
So, you know, give it a shotand then kind of see how you
feel afterward.
So I think that's a relevantstory, but I want to understand
from you for the listener how doyou know what feels good?

Yeah, well, it's interesting because her
that level of anxiety is anindication, like I don't want to
say red flag, but it's a, it'sa big, it's an obvious sign that
something is not going okay.
So this can come in, like Imean, yeah, emotional things can
come up stress and also we knowthat our brain and our gut are
tight, like the brain access,like we know it's affected and

(30:16):
what comes first.
If your gut balance is alsolike your microbiome is out,
then it affects your mentalhealth and vice versa.
So we know that mood or mentalor emotional aspects do play
into it.
We also need to think about thephysical effects that we get,
like are we getting digestivecramps afterwards or reflux or

(30:42):
just lethargy?
You know what's happening withwhat we're eating or are we
getting like super excited fromlike a bag of Oreos or whatever
it is, like the sugar hits?
So I think understanding howyou're feeling because, okay,
like I'm going to put this backdown to a very basic thing the
body has a life force that likeflows through it and you can
feel this life force, like ifyou clap your hands together,
force that like flows through itand you can feel this life

(31:05):
force, like if you clap yourhands together, your hands start
to tingle and you'll feel thelife force dropping into your
body to feel those feelings.
And I don't want to bring itback to emotions all the time,
but I think, like a lot of thetimes I'm working with people,
it does come back to how they'refeeling, whether they are
stressed, whether they haveanxiety.
Those feelings also have acertain vibration in our body as

(31:28):
well.
They're not something tosuppress and it's really good
that you kind of talk throughwith your daughter.
Okay, how can we do this?
Because they're there tellingus something Anger, for example.
We need to listen to our anger.
Or, if we're having guilt,listen to that.
And what anxiety?
What is it trying to tell usand why is it trying to tell us
that?
So I've totally diverged, but Ithink when, like when you, when

(31:56):
we want to think about whatfeels good, you can have the
mental side or the physical sideof it.
Sometimes they're conjoined andthen you want to also tap in
and listen to that and alsoperhaps honor that as well,
because I think sometimes inyour body it'd be like I don't
actually want that.
For example, if you've eatenbreakfast and then you're going
out for brunch and you're nothungry but you're eating, to be
polite, because it's brunch.

(32:18):
Then, even though your body'ssaying, but I'm not hungry, you
kind of override it and then eatanyway.
Even though your body's saying,but I'm not hungry, you kind of
override it and then eat anyway.
So in what ways can we kind ofhonor our body and listen to
what our body's saying?

I think that's the core of it.
That piece is actually verypowerful in my opinion because
if you go, if you extrapolate itto something like alcohol,
which is so socially conditionedand, I'll say, twisted in terms
of how it's portrayed right asthis wonderful thing, and you
think of the pressure people puton themselves just to imbibe
because they're with people,because of the social whatever,
that's kind of the extreme caseof it, but I do like the idea

(32:57):
that your hunger cues forexample you alluded to your
context of where you are withpeople is a variable, it's a
very strong variable in yourenvironment and you have control
.
You don't have control overthat, but you have control over
what you do within thatsituation.
So understanding why you'remaking your decisions is really
important.

(33:17):
Speaking of why, when you go tothe grocery store, because now
we can get a little practical,get a little more practical.
This is all practical, Ishouldn't say it's not, it's all
right.
They go to the grocery storenow and that's a powerful place
to be, because that is whereyou're purchasing all the things
that are going to go in yourbody over the next week or so.
Potentially if you cook a lotat home, which I recommend, but

(33:40):
to each his own.
That balances the.
We'll say nutrition quality,cause we don't want to say good
or bad, we don't want to sayhealthy, we want to say like the
quality of the food for whatyou need, and feel with the
enjoyment, with the practicality, with the indulgences, like how
do we make it all work?

We go to the grocery store.
Yeah, I love that.
Well, I find, to be honest, Ifind the grocery stores to be a
rather depleting and depressingplace.
I mean, in Germany I feel likewhen I go to the fresh produce,
all year round I have capsicums,paprika I'm not sure what you
call them cucumbers, tomatoesand salad.
I feel like the whole yearthese things are on offer and

(34:17):
that is very like.
That is a very limited amountof food.
So if you want to kind of getthe most out of what you're
eating, you need diversity.
You need to have diversity.
I like to follow the.
I like to follow the kind ofwhat do you call it?
I guess, let's say, rule If Ihave eaten it yesterday, don't

(34:38):
eat it again today.
So this way you're just changingup what you're eating, and
there's some people who don'tlike having a lot of variety.
But this means if you're eatingapples like, just change the
type of apples that you'reeating.
I guess, when things are inseason, to also kind of eat with
the seasons as well.
But this is also reallydifficult.
I mean, you can't.
That means, you know, for us inGermany, probably in the States

(34:58):
as well six months of the yearit's winter and you can't have a
lot of diversity.
There's like potatoes andcabbage.
So you need to get kind ofclever and see how you can
perhaps it's frozen stuff, youknow to kind of bring in that
diversity.
And then when you are thinkingof diversity, because you still
want to have fun, you don't wantit to just be fruits and

(35:21):
veggies.
You can't just live on fruitsand veg and a good quality
protein.
You want to be able to kind ofhave fun.
So I don't follow like a cheatday or a certain time, but it
comes back to that, really saidover and over again, this 80-20
rule.
You want to make sure that thefoods that you are eating they

(35:43):
are as whole and fresh aspossible but then also have room
for fun.
And I think if you've strictlyfollowed something, a high
regime, then it might be hard torelax a bit, and if you've
strictly just always relaxed,it's hard to have a good regime.
But with practice and it doestake practice, practice is the
progress in this you find a wayof what I thrive on and what I

(36:08):
can kind of add to.
I think, with the foods that,let's say, less nutritious, the
ones that are at least highlyprocessed, the food like
substances, why are we eatingthem?
We need to kind of strip backto okay, how did we sleep?
Do we need energy?
Are we grabbing them for quickenergy fixes?
Are we coming back from a weekof complete, you know, hard work

(36:31):
?
We're exhausted, we're stressed.
Okay, we're eating them to kindof, you know, put down that
feeling, or are we feeling sad?
Or are we bored and thereforeeating those foods?
I think it's not necessary.
It's what I tried to allude tobefore.
It's not the foods, necessarily, but the reasons why we're
eating them play a bigger partin the problem of them.
Everyone knows how to eathealthy.

(36:53):
If you say eat healthy, peopleknow what that means.
But actually doing that is thedifficult step, like the actual
act of doing it is what makes ithard.
So yes, variety is number one,diversity variety and diversity.
uh proportion so 80, 20, andthen yeah, with also like

(37:16):
moderation it's you know, yeah,moderation is everything as well
.

Stephanie (37:20):
The most value that I got from this was the fact that
I had someone that I could talkto about anything and that
there was going to be nojudgment.
It was just well, here are yourgoals, here's the best way that
you're going to achieve it, andthen let's work together to
help you feel inspired andmotivated to do that and there's
a lot of people out theretrying to be coaches and not all

(37:44):
of them have done the work andalso just be a genuine person
that is positive and coming fromthe heart in terms of wanting
to help, and Phillip reallyembodied all of those qualities.
I would recommend him to justabout anyone that's looking to
achieve goals in that realm oftheir nutrition and building new
habits.

It's simple, but we do like to complicate things
and until you've done itintentionally, you don't know
what you are capable of.
I mean, that's the way I see itis that right now, as we talk
about food, I'm thinking ofdifferent foods because it's
about lunchtime here.
But I also thought what came tomy head is the more I
personally have gone toward this, you know, nutrient-dense,
whole food, diverse approach,and I have a long way to go.

(38:27):
Like we all do, we have thingsthat we want to improve with the
more I those foods and actuallydon't crave or want or need the
quote unquote indulgences asmuch to the extent that, like, I
can think of a bowl of frozenshrimp with some cocktail sauce
as a really tasty, deliciousafternoon snack that I would
crave and that's awesome.
Like, for me, that's greatbecause I consume protein and

(38:49):
some taste and whatever.
It satisfies the all the things.
So the 80, 20 rule we use it alot in this industry because I
think it is effective.
I think the idea of 80, 20permeates a lot of things.
Actually, there's the Paretoprinciple where, like, 20% of
your effort leads to 80% of theresults and I think same thing
here is that 80, 20 is a goodsplit.
But when we say that, how doessomeone concretely do that?

(39:13):
And I ask because we havedifferent approaches.
If I had a client who's justtracking their food, it
literally is math.
It's just like, let's make surethe calorie, like 10, 20% of
your calories effectively are,you know, you're not crazy, like
half and half like processedfoods.
Let's say, how do you do itwhen you're tracking in other
ways or not tracking, or howeveryou'd like to do it with

(39:33):
clients?

So I focus on what we add in first, like what
can we add into your diet?
Like when I first start workingwith someone, I don't ever
strip anything away.
Like, similar to you, I don'twant to restrict anything and
usually when you add things intothe diet and that becomes a new
way of how you do things, itjust naturally pushes things out
.
And while you don't necessarilysee that, I mean you like,

(39:58):
sometimes with my clients I keeplike a food and mood journal
what are you eating and how doyou feel?
So they're writing it down.
There, is that awareness thereand that assertiveness.
But, yes, it's not what you seeto be like, oh, I've done this
and tick, it's kind of done.
It's more of a okay, like Irealize that this week I haven't
, yeah, eaten this, that and theother.

(40:18):
But in saying that, while we'rebringing in foods, I'm also
working on the reasons that theywould grab for those 20% rule,
you know, in the first placeBecause, again, if your way of
dealing with boredom orexhaustion is to go for food,
that's always going to be yourdefault, no matter how, how hard

(40:40):
you try to stay disciplined atsome point you can do it now.
For a few months.
You can even do it for a year,but if then something happens
that just makes you break, thenyou're going to default back to
that.
So we need to change thatdefault loop, and so it kind of
works.
You're working in two wayswe're working to break the cycle
and also just add in thingsthat are then going to make you

(41:03):
also not want them to.

Love it.
Change the default loop thathits it right on the head with
that phrase.
Right, Because it's what is thething you're always coming back
to when life throws its worstat you, right that's the habit
you want.
It's not what do you deviatefrom because of life.
So that's powerful In that case.
One of the things that manypeople face regularly is all the

(41:28):
social things right, going torestaurants, being asked to go
to happy hour, wanting to go toa party, vacation, travel, all
the things.
And you know there's so manylike download my you know travel
eating guide, download mytravel training guide, and it's
like all the traditional thingslike plan ahead and look at the
menu and all that.
But how do you get people tobecome comfortable in their

(41:50):
default while maybe doing havingthat kind of lifestyle?

To honestly, to start off, I don't.
People are like I'm going onholidays to Italy, I'm like
enjoy Italy.
So at the start it's like that.
At the start it's like that,and that's the thing is, on
holidays your 20 becomes your 80and your 80 becomes your 20.
And if you're on holidays forlonger than three weeks, after
some point you probably getconstipated and then realize

(42:14):
that you need to change and kindof go back to the ways that
you're doing things.
But as people become moreunderstanding that this way of
living, living aligned withtheir health and I also call it
your higher healer Once you tapinto something which makes you
feel completely different frominside to out, you are

(42:36):
unapologetically kind of show upfor yourself.
The drinking culture is a hugeone, because to go to a bar I
live in Germany to go to a barand everyone's drinking beer and
you kind of ask for like awater, sparkling water you know
people will say you know likewhat's, what's wrong with you?
Or oh yeah, you're the healthyand you know at some point, like
I stopped caring, like I carewhat you.
Or oh yeah, you're the healthyand you know at some point, like
I stopped caring, like I carewhat you think, but I care about

(42:59):
what I think about myself moreand I'm living my life in a
certain way because I, like,this is how I want to live.
So I think you know, when youstart, you know in your perhaps
not fully committed, then, yes,go on holidays and enjoy it and
go to the bar every now and thenand live that life, that's
totally fine.
But for the people who are thenaligned with their authentic

(43:22):
way of living and say, no, thisis what I stand by and this is
how I do it, you can then also,but to do that, you have to find
what your truth means to you,and that is I'm packing all that
uncomfortable stuff that youdon't want to do in the first
meeting.

For sure, and you want people to fall on their
faces sometimes and, like, I sawthis funny meme that says, even
if you fall on your face,you're still moving forward,
right, which is the truth of it.
And since they have a guidelineand a structure they're trying
to follow.
And again, I always come backto engineering words, but
effectively, what you're sayingright is be intentional.

(44:01):
Then you know when you'redeviating, because you're being
more aware of what's happeningin your body.
So, let's say, you do go to arestaurant and I say restaurant
because that is where somepeople struggle, right, because
it's easy to just over-consumeand over-indulge with, even if
you are thinking I'm going tohave lean meats and vegetables
because those taste good, andI'm gonna do this, and that
you've got, of course, thealcohol is its own thing You've

(44:24):
got the appetizer flowing,you've got all the salads and
then the food and the dessert,potentially there for the taking
, and you're trying to enjoythis social experience.
It's like people are thinking,okay, great, like five days, six
days out of the week, mydefault is this wonderful thing
where I'm in tune with my body,and yet I go to a restaurant,
and how do I still do that?
Right, that's kind of what I'mgetting at.
People are wondering about.

Yeah, that's a good question, because when you
go to the restaurant, like atthe end of the day, like when
you see food as calories in,calories out, so to say, or I
have to eat this many or I can'teat that many it becomes really
difficult.
Because then you know it's likeoh, a beer, is this mention?
Okay, but I'm also having thismeal.

(45:04):
Oh, I don't want a dessert too,and then you kind of it becomes
stressful.
But if you eat till satiation,like and again honoring your
body, I don't want to eatanymore.
Or like you know, I'm listeningto your hunger cues then do you
eat just to like stuff yourself?

(45:24):
And that might the answer mightbe yes, because it tastes good
and like.
No judgment there.
But you know, if you are livingthe life where you're like I'm
eating because I'm hungry andI'm stopping when I'm full and
you're aware of that, then thatactually changes the whole

(45:44):
entire meal eating outexperience.
So I think that's kind of how I.
Yeah, because listening to ourhunger cues and our satiation
cues are one of the biggestparts of tapping into our bodies
.
So I think that's one of thelargest parts there.

And that's very consistent with everything
you've said today, which isbeing in tune with that and
letting that drive decisions inthe moment and not having to
artificially constrain yourselfvia whatever it is right.
It's funny you say that becauseI think of going to an Italian
restaurant around here whereit's almost all pasta dishes
with rich sauces and things, andof course, you can choose to
have different, you can chooseother things on there, and I

(46:16):
know if I have a Alfredo sauceit's probably not going to feel
great.
So right there I'm thinkingokay, my body tells me maybe I
want a lighter sauce just tobegin with, but even if I do
choose to have it, half ofthat's going to go in the
takeout box, Like for sure,because you're right.

(46:39):
You, unless you're mindlesslyeating, which is another piece
of this is intention.

Stephanie (46:40):
My wife, my kids and I we all have.
We have four boxes Every timewe go to the restaurant.

This is lunch tomorrow, which is great,
because then you save money andyou have more food ready to go
for the next day.

Yeah, but it comes down having this intention
and tapping in with your body,like what we first started
talking about.
Why is there so much feararound food?
And I think, when you're notsure what you should be eating
and how you should be eating it,which is aligned with you know,
how much exercise are you doing, depending on how much you need
?
Are you listening to yourbody's cues?

(47:05):
Am I hungry, am I full?
Is it appetite?
Appetite's the psychologicalwant for foods, like you walk
past Subway and you're like, oh,actually I do want a Subway.
That's your appetite, that'snot hunger, hunger is.
You know you might belightheaded, your stomach has
like some pains in it, likethat's the hunger.
And so when you yes, when youkind of align with what your

(47:26):
goals are and why you're doingthis whole transformation,
aligning it with exactly how youfeel in your body, you become
perhaps like more convicted inyour food choices and you know
I'm making these right choicesand there is less of that.
Oh, like carbs are bad, I'mscared of carbs.
Can't have a cake because, oh,it's bad, and that all will then

(47:47):
kind of fall away.

Yeah, I'm hearing that you become confident in
your choices, you own them, youbecome the, you know, the master
of your own, your own choices,which is a great place to be.
So, as we wrap up cause I thinkwe covered, we covered a lot of
great things at all,interconnected ultimately, which
is wonderful, and that happens.
Is there anything you wish Idid ask and if so, what is your
answer?

Oh, that's a lovely question.
I think perhaps is there andyou also touched on this the
word holistic.
Is there a more holisticapproach to self-mastery,
optimizing ourselves, getting incontact with our own self, and
how can we do that?

(48:30):
I think a holistic approach,which is the movement, the
strength as you talk about, isone aspect.
The biochemical, the toxins,also the nutrition that we put
into our body, is the second.
The mental and emotional aspectis the third and then I think
all encompassing in that is alsoperhaps I almost want to say

(48:52):
spirituality to it, tounderstanding that our bodies I
mean people call our bodiestemples you always hear this
like your body's your temple.
I feel like your bodies areactually inherited, like a
lifelong inherited mansion thatyou kind of get from your
forefathers, and it's filledwith habits, these cycles and
the way that, the things that wetriggered us, perhaps even why

(49:15):
we are the way we are, and weneed to do some deep work on
that first, or at some point todo some work there, because this
connects you with a higherversion of yourself, a higher, a
higher power, which whichreally then drives you to make
the choices, not because youthink you should or not because
society says you should, butbecause you genuinely want to be

(49:44):
at that place.
I think, yes, you didn't have toask that question.
But when I think about theunderlying basis of why I do
what I do and how I doeverything, I think that is also
it, because ultimately, in theend of the day, I would love to
see in everyone like a healer inevery home.
I would love to have a space, aspace and a healing area in
your house where you have theability to heal.

(50:07):
My dad's a chiropractor and thechiropractic philosophy is the
power that made the body, is apower that heals the body, and I
genuinely stick by that.
And of course, food and ofcourse movement has something to
do with that.
Of course our mental healthdoes, but then again also the
spiritual too.

I love that.
I love that.
Yeah, I'm definitely open tomany of these ideas and to me it
comes down to purpose andsomething deeper and
philosophical that we can'tnecessarily explain.
And I love how you said we'reconnected to our forefathers
because we are, I think,physiologically and like
genetically, but also there'ssomething that's passed through

(50:43):
us culturally and and in someother ways we can't explain
potentially.
So it's great, the mysteries ofthe universe, beautiful, all
right, we love that.

Stephanie (50:51):
We love that.

So, all right, all right, we want people to find
you and I'll definitely beincluding a link to your podcast
, since, um, you know, again, wehave another conversation where
you interviewed me there.
But where do you want folks?

to reach out.
Come to alannabonnemancom.
I mean that's, if you want toreach out.
I guess that's where I hang.
Instagram is also there,youtube, linkedin, they're all
there, um, but I think the hubof everything I do is at
alannabonnemancom.

Cool, We'll make it simple.
Podcast alannabonnemancom.
You can find all of yourresources.
You're a very special person,Alanna.
I've had lots and lots ofinterviews, but this was so
positive, so much energy andenthusiasm, and I love the fact
that we are different in so manyways but also care about the
same thing and have purpose andspirituality in abundance.

(51:38):
I think so.
Thank you again for coming on.

Thank you as well for having me.
I also very much enjoy that wehave similar outlooks and work
in very different ways, but getthe same result and also have
the same approach.
We're always learning.

We learn from each other, so thank you so much for
coming on.
Likewise, we're always learning, yeah, and we learn from each
other, so thank you so much forcoming on.

Likewise.
Thank you, Philip.

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Can You Eat "Clean" Without Food Guilt in an Ultra-Processed World? (Alana Bonnemann) | Ep 328

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Can You Eat "Clean" Without Food Guilt in an Ultra-Processed World? (Alana Bonnemann) | Ep 328