September 10, 2025 • 25 mins
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Are you sore after workouts... and does this even matter?
Learn why DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness) is actually a terrible indicator of workout effectiveness, what it really tells you about your training, and the performance metrics you should track instead to know if you're making real progress toward your physique goals.
This episode answers a question from a Wits & Weights Physique University member about whether soreness indicates workout quality and how to measure progress effectively.
Main Takeaways:
- Soreness indicates novelty and adaptation to new stimuli, not workout effectiveness or muscle growth
- You can get sore from ineffective activities
- Experienced lifters get less sore over time while still making gains
- Track much more targeted metrics of performance and progress instead of how sore you are
- However, soreness can be used to measure recovery
Timestamps:
0:00 - Does pain equal progress?
2:57 - What is DOMS?
5:27 - Why soreness doesn't equal progress
8:51 - The repeated bout effect
10:53 - What soreness tells you about training
12:09 - When soreness becomes counterproductive
14:10 - Performance metrics that matter
17:20 - Recovery strategies for managing soreness
21:57 - From pain-focused to performance-focused
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Philip Pape (00:02):
If you're someone who judges your workouts by how
sore you are the next day,thinking that pain equals
progress, and you've beenchasing that muscle burn as
proof.
You've been getting strongerand building muscle, but you're
confused because sometimes youfeel like you had an amazing
training session, yet wake upfeeling perfectly fine.
This episode is for you.
You'll discover why soreness isactually a terrible indicator
(00:25):
of workout quality, the sciencebehind what DOMS really tells us
about your training, and themetrics you should be tracking
instead to know if you'reactually making progress toward
your Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build
(00:50):
a strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering and
efficiency.
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday we're going to answer a
question that came from one ofour Wits and Weights Physique
University members, one that Iget asked constantly in both
coaching calls and when I appearon other podcasts, and the
exact question she shared was,quote is a workout effective if
(01:11):
you're not sore the next day?
Conversely, can you sometimesfeel DOMS without actually
getting stronger?
I'm trying to measure progressby increasing weight and reps
over time, but you know I'malways looking for more feedback
or confirmation that I'm doingenough, without overdoing it.
This perfectly captures theconfusion around soreness and
(01:31):
training effectiveness that I'veseen ever since I got into this
space, and we're going to breakthis down systematically.
First, I'm going to explainwhat DOMS actually is and why it
happens.
Doms stands for Delayed OnsetMuscle Soreness.
Then we'll explore why sorenessis a terrible indicator of
workout quality.
After that, we're gonna look atwhat soreness actually does
tell you about your trainingboth the good and the concerning
(01:53):
signals and then, finally, I'llgive you the specific metrics
you should track instead to knowif your workouts, if your
training, is actually working.
By the end of this episode, myhope is you'll never again judge
a training session by how youfeel the next morning.
Before we get into the science,I do want to share a testimonial
from one of our PhysiqueUniversity members that I think
(02:14):
captures the spirit of today'stopic Quote.
When I asked a question aboutwanting to get back into a cut
in the Facebook group butmentioned that my lifts
plateaued, philip opened my eyes.
I'm realizing that those dietbreaks, carefully tracked, would
have been a good move.
All these tips are with themindset of looking far down the
road and getting into habitslittle by little, to where you
hardly feel the effort.
I signed up for PhysiqueUniversity right away, as I
(02:36):
don't want to lose my progress,end quote.
Now notice this is a little bitabout plateauing and tracking,
but notice the big picture here.
The member shifted fromworrying about immediate
feedback, which soreness wouldfall into that category, to
focusing on the long termprocess and tracking progress
and the systematic approach, andthat's basically what we're
talking about today.
(02:57):
All right, what is DOMS?
Let's start with the foundationunderstanding what soreness
actually represents at thephysiological level, because
even that alone can be difficultto wrap your head around unless
you understand, okay, what evencauses soreness to begin with,
before we decide, should we bechasing it?
So let's talk about DOMS,delayed onset muscle soreness.
(03:17):
It kicks in about 12 to 24hours after exercise so hence
the word delayed onset and itpeaks around 24 to 72 hours
later, so about a half a day tothree days later.
And you might have noticedcertain muscle groups will take
longer to feel sore than others,right, like the bigger muscles,
like your legs.
Now, this is not from lactateacid buildup, despite what you
(03:40):
might've heard.
Doms comes from microtrauma tomuscle fibers, as well as
localized inflammation and fluidshifts going on in the tissue.
So this is your body's responseto the mechanical stress,
especially from movements thatemphasize the eccentric phase,
that is, the lowering portion ofa lift.
(04:02):
For example, romanian deadlifts, if done right, can actually
produce some notorious sorenessbecause of the controlled
lowering motion.
It is in a sense an isolationmovement, even though it's a
compound lift.
If done right, you really cantear those hamstrings in the
eccentric.
And again we're going to talkabout why that's not always a
bad thing.
Right, we want to do Romaniandeadlifts Same thing with, say,
(04:24):
walking lunges or negatives.
If you're trying to get betterat your chin-ups or pull-ups or
bodyweight squats, for example,the muscle lengthens under
tension and that creates moremicroscopic damage than the
concentric contractions bythemselves.
And you're thinking, okay, well, don't you always have an
eccentric?
You do, so stick with me Now.
(04:44):
Soreness itself is an adaptationsignal, usually to novel,
that's, new or unaccustomedstress.
The key word here is novel.
Your body is telling you itexperienced something different,
not necessarily that it's quoteunquote optimal for muscle
growth or that it's doinganything more than something
(05:05):
that doesn't make you sore.
So I want to talk about whythis distinction between
different and optimal is thecritical piece.
So we're going to get to theheart of our member's question
Can you get sore without gettingstronger?
Absolutely, and can effectiveworkouts leave you without
soreness?
Also, absolutely so they'reindependent variables, is my
(05:27):
point.
One doesn't follow from theother per se.
So, for example, you can getincredibly sore from activities
that really don't do anythingfor your strength, muscle,
physique goals.
You know, I've seen peoplereport soreness after moving
from one house to another, doingyard work, taking a long hike,
especially if you don't do itoften or if you're going uphill
(05:49):
and you normally go on flat land.
And none of these activitieswere designed specifically to
train and progress over time tobuild muscle, but they create
plenty of DOMS.
On the flip side, you can makehuge strength and muscle gains
with minimal soreness onceyou're adapted to your training
routine, and this is one of thebiggest surprises I face all the
(06:09):
time.
In fact, it creates concern insome people's minds.
It's like, oh, I'm not gettingsore.
What is going on?
Is this actually working?
And I work with, you know,newbies, late beginner, early
intermediate, late intermediate,advanced lifters, all at
different levels, who, they'llrarely get sore because their
bodies have adapted to thestimulus really quickly, like
(06:31):
within a few sessions, is oftenthe case, and we see this even
in a single training block, likeif I switch from one six week
block into a new block with newlifts.
I may get a little bit soreafter those first couple
sessions, or even each of thosesessions the first week because
it's all new movements I haven'tdone in a while.
And then by the next week it'sall good and I don't feel sore
anymore, right, and yet you'restill increasing and adding
(06:54):
weight to the bar, adding repsto your lifts.
So let's step back and talkabout first principles again.
Muscle hypertrophy the growth inmuscle size, is driven by
mechanical tension, progressiveoverload and sufficient volume
over time.
Now mechanical tension isreally what it is, because the
progressive overload and thevolume is just a way to increase
(07:15):
that over time as it getsharder and harder to do so
unless you increase thechallenge on your muscles.
Soreness correlates with noneof these.
That's the revelation here.
You can create mechanicaltension through heavy compound
movements without generatingsignificant soreness.
You can progressively overloadby adding weights, reps or sets
(07:37):
without chasing any sort ofsoreness or pain.
So this addresses the secondpart of the question.
Yes, you're absolutely doingenough if you are increasing
weight in reps over time,regardless of the soreness level
.
And, just as a quick aside,because we're talking about
progressive overload andtracking and training and what
matters for your physique.
(07:57):
This is something we definitelyhelp out with in Physique
University, which is where themember question comes from.
When you join, you get not onlya custom nutrition plan if you
use the special link in the shownotes this is for podcast
listeners only.
Not only do you get that, wehave training templates that are
designed around theseprinciples and also flex around
your days per week, yourequipment access, your
(08:19):
experience level, and none ofthem have to do with chasing
soreness in any way.
And you could always joinPhysique University using the
link in the show notes and tryit out.
We've got a series of lessonsthat will onboard you into how
to lift weights, how to breathe,how to brace, how to you know
should you wear squat shoes, howto use a power rack, how to use
rest periods and so on.
(08:40):
So, again, if you want to joinPhysique University to get all
of that, it's still just $27 amonth and if you use the special
link in the show notes, youwill get a custom nutrition plan
absolutely free included inthat.
All right.
Next up, I want to explain thesort of fascinating physiology
behind why experienced liftersget less sore over time and why
(09:01):
that's good for progress.
So this is called the repeatedbout effect.
When you perform the sameexercise pattern repeatedly,
your body adapts, not just bygetting stronger but becoming
more resistant toexercise-induced damage, and
this means less soreness overtime, even as you're making
better gains.
Your muscle fibers become moreresilient to mechanical stress.
(09:23):
Your inflammatory responsebecomes more efficient.
Your nervous system coordinatesmovement patterns more smoothly
.
Now for some of us that's goodand at the same time means you
have to continue challengingyourself over time.
It's kind of a double-edgedsword.
So beginning lifters often doexperience significant soreness
in those first few days or evenweeks, because everything is new
(09:45):
to them.
Everything is novel.
Their muscles, their connectivetissues, their nervous systems
are all adapting simultaneously.
But then, as they progress, thesoreness diminishes while the
strength and muscle masscontinue increasing.
For some people it happens veryquickly.
For some people the sorenesslasts a little bit longer and
also it's affected by yourrecovery needs.
And this is why chasingsoreness through constant
(10:08):
exercise variation right whatsome people used to call muscle
confusion, or if you look at theCrossFit community, they seem
to put on a pedestal.
The idea of constantly varied,which we know, in and of itself
has no benefit whatsoever otherthan it might be fun.
But if we're trying to makeprogress to something here, fun
can't be the only variable.
It can interfere with yourprogress.
Is what I'm saying?
(10:28):
You're preventing your bodyfrom adapting efficiently to the
movements that drive the bestresults.
Why do you think I haveprograms like Ironclad in our
training templates that areactually built on lots and lots
of increasing volume over timewithout changing the movements?
It's to create that efficientadaptation so that you could
then get stronger and build moremuscle.
So we've covered what DOMS is.
(10:50):
We've covered why it's not aprogress indicator.
But soreness does tell yousomething useful about your
training.
So I want to explain what thatis.
It is telling you about thenovelty.
So you've introduced a newexercise or rep range or
training volume or movementpattern, and soreness often
indicates an emphasis oneccentric contractions, like I
(11:12):
alluded to earlier.
And this can actually bevaluable for your muscle
development when you program itthe right way.
So that's one thing.
Soreness can also signalrecovery issues.
This can actually be valuablefor your muscle development when
you program it the right way.
So that's one thing Sorenesscan also signal recovery issues.
So this is where I think it'svery, very helpful.
If you are consistently gettingexcessive soreness from what
I'll call your routine workoutsor training sessions, that might
(11:33):
indicate a lack of sleep,insufficient protein or calories
, high stress levels, poorhydration, just too much volume,
your body just isn't recoveringefficiently between sessions.
Now, individual variability ishuge here, as always, right, we
know this.
Some people are geneticallypredisposed to more
(11:54):
exercise-induced inflammation.
Others have like their musclefiber composition is more
resistant to damage.
And you know, neither of theseindicate better or worse
training outcomes.
It's just differences and youhave to understand your body.
But here's where soreness canbecome counterproductive to your
goals.
Extreme soreness this is thekind that makes it difficult to
(12:17):
walk downstairs, where you'relike man, I'm slammed, that
crushed me, that killed me.
I can barely stand up.
I remember my first couple oftimes doing CrossFit.
I literally felt like I wasgoing to die, like I was going
to puke.
I had to lay down.
It was just insane, right?
That kind of soreness where youcan't even lift your arms up is
going to interfere with yourtraining quality.
It just is.
(12:37):
When you are significantly sore,you're going to move
differently, you're gonna have adecreased range of motion,
you're gonna have less strength,you're gonna have poorer
technique.
It's just this systemic fatigueemanating throughout your body,
and so it creates a cascade ofproblems Poor movement quality.
What does that do?
Well, it increases injury risk.
Reduced strength means lessmechanical tension, so you're
(12:59):
actually not going to hit theintensity you intend.
Compromise technique is goingto shift the load away from what
you're trying to do in the gym,which is focus on specific
movements and muscles anddevelop them.
And excessive soreness can setyou back with time, with your
recovery time.
It's not time efficient.
If you're so sore from Monday'sworkout that you can't train
(13:21):
effectively for three or fourmore days, you're going to
create a bottleneck in yourfrequency and then, if you do go
into the gym while you'reexcessively sore, you may
exacerbate the issue.
You know, worst case, best case, you're just going to train but
then not really have muchprogress.
Right, we know that there's acertain amount of frequency,
intensity and volume that areneeded for optimal growth.
(13:42):
So, again, this is why theprograms that I create, the
templates that we have inPhysique University, are
designed around sustainableprogression.
That's really the key here.
You know we focus on thetraining variables that drive
results progressive overload,appropriate volume, optimal
frequency and if you just ignoresoreness completely, you're
(14:03):
probably better off, except forits use as a negative indicator
of too much of something or notenough recovery right Now.
The one thing I didn't mentionwith recovery is if you're doing
a bunch of cardio, if you'redoing a bunch of body weight
stuff in between your trainingsessions, that could be making
you sore too, and then it'sinterfering with everything else
, including your main liftingsessions.
Now this brings us to the mostpractical part of today's
(14:25):
episode.
If you should not tracksoreness, then what should you
be monitoring instead?
All right, let's talk about themetrics that predict success
with your training, right?
So if it's not soreness whichwe've said that that's the case
now it's not your heart rate,it's not how much you sweat,
right, it's not how you feel.
We want to be objective.
(14:46):
We want to use performancemetrics that give you feedback
so you can make informed choices, right?
And the member who wrote thequestion she's already doing a
lot of this.
You can hear the way she framedthe question like I'm doing
this, this, this, this.
Now I'm trying to understandwhere soreness fits into the
equation.
So the first thing is to trackyour strength progression.
Seems obvious but noteverybody's doing it.
I've had advanced clients whojoin and they hadn't been
(15:08):
tracking their workouts and Iwas quite surprised by this.
But it's more often than youthink.
You need to track all yoursessions, your exercises, your
load sets, reps, and then howthat progresses over time.
And to do that you need to knowwhat did you do last time.
If your squat was 225 last time, you're probably going for
maybe 230 this time, or maybeyou're adding a rep, and that
(15:29):
tells you not only what to gofor but whether you're making
progress, regardless of soreness.
So that's strength progression.
Then you have to monitor yourvolume.
Everybody I can't tell you theright volume for you.
It's gonna depend on yourlifestyle, and what I mean by
that is the amount of stress inyour life, your individual
response, and don't buy any ofthe malarkey about men and women
(15:49):
being so different withtraining volume.
There are average.
There might be differences tothe population level, and even
now I'm coming to see there'sprobably not even that, to be
honest that it's much moreindividual from person to person
.
So volume is the whole, thetotal sets that you lift
throughout the week, and somepeople can handle a lot, some
people can't.
And also, if you're in asurplus or maintenance or
deficit, it's going to bedifferent.
(16:10):
And also if you're working submaximally instead of very, at a
very high load, that can affecthow much volume you can take,
because obviously the totaltonnage is different, meaning
the volume times the load right.
So as long as you areincreasing in your overall
volume, which is usuallyindicated by weight on the bar
and or reps, you're getting thestimulus needed for adaptation.
(16:33):
Don't worry about soreness.
The next thing I would ask youto think about is your intensity
.
How hard are you trainingduring your sets?
Are you getting close to therep shy?
Are you getting to the rep shyof failure that you're intending
?
Or, if it sets across, itshould feel, you know, a few
reps shy of failure, dependingon if we're talking compound
lifts or isolation lifts.
(16:53):
The goal again is to createsufficient mechanical tension
without excessive fatigue.
Right to fatigue, not soreness,doesn't matter.
Also, your body compositionchanges matter more than
soreness, because if you'regaining muscle mass and you're
losing body fat, you'reimproving your strength to
weight ratio.
Again, who cares about sorenessunless the soreness is holding
(17:13):
you back?
And so, speaking of that, ofrecovery, since excessive
soreness does often indicaterecovery issues.
Let us walk through strategiesthat work for managing soreness
from a recovery standpoint, sothat you can get the best
adaptations that we're lookingfor, because that's what the
goal is of all of this trainingstuff that we do.
So what is the role of recoveryhere in managing soreness?
(17:35):
Well, the big one is sleepright.
That Muscle protein synthesisis going to peak when you're
sleeping.
Most adults need at least seven, if not eight or nine, hours
for optimal recovery, and if youget enough sleep, you'll
probably actually get far lesssore.
So now we're talking about more.
How do you manage the sorenessitself?
Because in many cases, you'rehaving soreness and you don't
need to.
(17:55):
Having enough food and proteinsupports repair of your tissues.
People forget protein is notjust to build muscle, it's to
repair all tissues in your body.
That's why we need enough ofthose amino acids flooding our
system right.
It's the remodeling of yourbody without the excessive
inflammation because you don'thave enough resources coming in,
and this is where, when you'rein a fat loss phase, you don't
have as many resources.
(18:16):
Protein needs to be even higherthan, or at least kept high,
and you have to manage yourvolume and all the other things
and your sleep and so on.
Hydration is also big right.
In fact, this is often thego-to for a lot of folks.
When you have cramping andsoreness is just, you don't have
enough fluid coming in.
There's your tissues all have.
I mean, we are full of water,right, your tissue has a balance
(18:37):
of water.
Your tissues are always tryingto remove waste and dehydration
can exacerbate soreness anddelay recovery.
Most people need at least halfof their body weight plus 15
ounces of water a day, probablya lot more than that.
If you're training hard, if youlive in hot climates, don't
neglect hydration.
It's huge.
Then we have movement.
(18:58):
Here's the other thing.
People are on their desk allday, even though they lift
weights, even though they go forwalks.
If you're sitting down a lot,that's going to reduce your
blood flow and that's going toincrease your stiffness and
soreness as well.
So, just getting up frequentlyand moving around, right, we're
not talking cardio, we'retalking walking, moving, yoga,
mobility, whatever.
Whatever gets you up and movingdoesn't matter.
Anything that promotescirculation without extra
(19:19):
training, stress, right, we'renot trying to go do more cardio
and all of those things arereally great for managing
soreness.
All right.
Now, before we wrap up, I wantto address all the recovery
methods that you do see promotedonline Real quick ice baths,
foam rolling, supplements andwhat works in the context of
evidence-based sorenessmanagement, because these do
(19:41):
come up.
All right, foam rolling andmassage probably provide some
temporarily, mostly perceptual,relief.
I mean, I get a massage once amonth and I know half of the
reason I go is just because itfeels good, you know it feels
good.
The other half is I thinkthere's probably benefit there
to my fascial tissue on theoutside of my muscles, for a
(20:01):
little bit of my range of motion, for getting some extra.
I'll say stretching and, youknow, digging into the tissue
that I just wouldn't be doing onmy own right For my shoulder,
for example, for my lower back.
Similar thing with foam rolling.
They might make you feel better.
We don't know that theysignificantly accelerate the
recovery process Again outsideof a rehab setting.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm just talking aboutday-to-day soreness, all right,
(20:22):
but some people swear by them.
Some people swear by Thera gunsright, the self massage, really
powerful massage gun.
So that's that's.
That's foam rolling and massage.
What about static stretching?
Static stretching apparentlydoesn't really prevent DOMS and
it may provide some acute relief.
But I think you know myposition on stretching is you
don't really need it as you warmup.
You want to warm up, doing thelift and light movement is fine,
(20:46):
but extended stretchingprotocols doesn't necessarily
have any benefit and it couldbackfire in some cases.
But anyway, it's kind of seemsagnostic when it comes to
soreness.
What about cold water andcryotherapy?
Again, evidence is mixed.
I'm sorry for all of you thatare like gung-ho about cold
plunges these days.
In fact, the more we learnabout icing, the more we think
it may actually arrest thepositive inflammatory response
(21:10):
that you need.
They might reduce perceivedsoreness, but they also can
blunt some adaptation signals ifyou're using a lot.
So if you don't want to do icebaths, you don't need to.
I'm sorry, you just don't.
And I'm not even going to talkabout saunas.
That's one area that I thinkcould be helpful, but I actually
didn't come up with any noteson that, so I apologize.
What about medicines?
What about NSAIDs likeibuprofen?
(21:31):
They do reduce inflammation andthe perception of soreness, but
you don't wanna be chronicallytaking those and they can impair
your muscle growth as well.
They can stop the inflammatoryresponse, which which is part of
the adaptation process.
Remember, inflammation is not abad word, it's a neutral word
of something your body naturallydoes.
The question is excessiveinflammation, chronic
inflammation, versus normaladaptation inflammation.
(21:52):
So if we're constantlysuppressing inflammation, it can
interfere with long-term gains.
All right, we covered whatsoreness is, why it's misleading
, what it actually tells you andhow to manage it properly.
But I want to leave you withone more what it actually tells
you and how to manage itproperly.
But I want to leave you withone more insight to reframe how
successful lifters think abouttheir training.
Most of the successful liftersthat I work with, that I talk to
every day, the ones who aremaking consistent progress
(22:15):
they're really into liftingbecause of the result it gives
them.
They never talk about soreness.
They just.
They just never do.
I mean, you might have this oddday where somebody's like, yeah
, I tried Nordic curls for thefirst time in two years and I
got a little bit sore.
That's kind of the extent of it, unless they're doing something
stupid outside the gym and theyget sore from that.
(22:37):
That can happen.
But I'm talking about justtheir training and they're
focusing on performance.
They're focusing on the liftand their recovery quality and
the long-term progression.
They understand that.
Adaptations about providing theright stimulus consistently over
time, not maximizing acutediscomfort.
I don't even really wantworkouts to feel feel hard in
(22:58):
the discomfort way.
They should feel hard in achallenging way.
That's making progress.
Having said that, I know thereare certain lifts everybody has.
It's like the lift that theyare not a fan of.
Okay, but that's a differenttype of discomfort.
I think that's more mental thananything.
But I think it's a big ironyhere is that once you stop
chasing soreness and sweat andthe YouTube workouts and the
endurance training and the P90Xand the F45 and the CrossFit and
(23:20):
the boot camps and the groupclasses, all that stuff, and
just step back and do some basiclifts, you have plenty of rest
period, enjoy pushing yourselfand challenging yourself to
increase over time.
You often end up with bettersatisfaction and joy from your
training.
You feel more capable, you arestronger.
(23:41):
You see the measurableimprovements week to week.
You build confidence in theprogram because you have
objective data showing it works,because I'll tell you, feeling
wiped after a workout is notobjective data that shows it
works.
So this shift from a pain focusto a performance focus is often
(24:03):
that transition from I was acasual exerciser to now I'm a
serious trainee and that is whenpeople start seeing the
physique changes that they'vebeen working toward, and we
would love to help you do that.
That's what we do all the time.
That is how I design mytraining templates and guidance
around them.
So soreness is a normal responseto a novel stimulus, but it is
(24:24):
neither necessary nor sufficientfor muscle growth and strength
development.
You can get sore fromineffective activities.
You can make excellent progresswith minimal soreness once you
are adapted.
So focus on progressiveoverload, appropriate volume,
recovery, quality, track yourperformance, weight sets, reps,
body composition over time.
These provide much betterfeedback about whether your
(24:45):
training is working.
The goal isn't to punishyourself with miserable workouts
that leave you hobbling aroundas much as that seems to be a
mark of pride in some circles.
The goal is to provide yourmuscles with the stimulus they
need to adapt and grow stronger,while allowing sufficient
recovery for that adaptation tooccur.
All right Hope I made it clear.
(25:07):
If this episode did make itclear, if it clarified your
thinking about soreness versusprogress, just text it to a
friend who's still judging theirworkouts by how much they hurt
afterward.
Share this with someone whoneeds to hear that effective
training doesn't requiresuffering.
Until next time, keep usingyour wits lifting those weights
and remember progress happenswhen you train consistently and
(25:29):
recover well, not when you'retoo sore to move.
This is Philip Pape and you'vebeen listening to Wits and
Weights.
I'll talk to you next time.
If you're someone who judges your workouts by how
sore you are the next day,thinking that pain equals
progress, and you've beenchasing that muscle burn as
proof.
You've been getting strongerand building muscle, but you're
confused because sometimes youfeel like you had an amazing
training session, yet wake upfeeling perfectly fine.
This episode is for you.
You'll discover why soreness isactually a terrible indicator
(00:25):
of workout quality, the sciencebehind what DOMS really tells us
about your training, and themetrics you should be tracking
instead to know if you'reactually making progress toward
your Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build
(00:50):
a strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering and
efficiency.
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday we're going to answer a
question that came from one ofour Wits and Weights Physique
University members, one that Iget asked constantly in both
coaching calls and when I appearon other podcasts, and the
exact question she shared was,quote is a workout effective if
(01:11):
you're not sore the next day?
Conversely, can you sometimesfeel DOMS without actually
getting stronger?
I'm trying to measure progressby increasing weight and reps
over time, but you know I'malways looking for more feedback
or confirmation that I'm doingenough, without overdoing it.
This perfectly captures theconfusion around soreness and
(01:31):
training effectiveness that I'veseen ever since I got into this
space, and we're going to breakthis down systematically.
First, I'm going to explainwhat DOMS actually is and why it
happens.
Doms stands for Delayed OnsetMuscle Soreness.
Then we'll explore why sorenessis a terrible indicator of
workout quality.
After that, we're gonna look atwhat soreness actually does
tell you about your trainingboth the good and the concerning
(01:53):
signals and then, finally, I'llgive you the specific metrics
you should track instead to knowif your workouts, if your
training, is actually working.
By the end of this episode, myhope is you'll never again judge
a training session by how youfeel the next morning.
Before we get into the science,I do want to share a testimonial
from one of our PhysiqueUniversity members that I think
(02:14):
captures the spirit of today'stopic Quote.
When I asked a question aboutwanting to get back into a cut
in the Facebook group butmentioned that my lifts
plateaued, philip opened my eyes.
I'm realizing that those dietbreaks, carefully tracked, would
have been a good move.
All these tips are with themindset of looking far down the
road and getting into habitslittle by little, to where you
hardly feel the effort.
I signed up for PhysiqueUniversity right away, as I
(02:36):
don't want to lose my progress,end quote.
Now notice this is a little bitabout plateauing and tracking,
but notice the big picture here.
The member shifted fromworrying about immediate
feedback, which soreness wouldfall into that category, to
focusing on the long termprocess and tracking progress
and the systematic approach, andthat's basically what we're
talking about today.
(02:57):
All right, what is DOMS?
Let's start with the foundationunderstanding what soreness
actually represents at thephysiological level, because
even that alone can be difficultto wrap your head around unless
you understand, okay, what evencauses soreness to begin with,
before we decide, should we bechasing it?
So let's talk about DOMS,delayed onset muscle soreness.
(03:17):
It kicks in about 12 to 24hours after exercise so hence
the word delayed onset and itpeaks around 24 to 72 hours
later, so about a half a day tothree days later.
And you might have noticedcertain muscle groups will take
longer to feel sore than others,right, like the bigger muscles,
like your legs.
Now, this is not from lactateacid buildup, despite what you
(03:40):
might've heard.
Doms comes from microtrauma tomuscle fibers, as well as
localized inflammation and fluidshifts going on in the tissue.
So this is your body's responseto the mechanical stress,
especially from movements thatemphasize the eccentric phase,
that is, the lowering portion ofa lift.
(04:02):
For example, romanian deadlifts, if done right, can actually
produce some notorious sorenessbecause of the controlled
lowering motion.
It is in a sense an isolationmovement, even though it's a
compound lift.
If done right, you really cantear those hamstrings in the
eccentric.
And again we're going to talkabout why that's not always a
bad thing.
Right, we want to do Romaniandeadlifts Same thing with, say,
(04:24):
walking lunges or negatives.
If you're trying to get betterat your chin-ups or pull-ups or
bodyweight squats, for example,the muscle lengthens under
tension and that creates moremicroscopic damage than the
concentric contractions bythemselves.
And you're thinking, okay, well, don't you always have an
eccentric?
You do, so stick with me Now.
(04:44):
Soreness itself is an adaptationsignal, usually to novel,
that's, new or unaccustomedstress.
The key word here is novel.
Your body is telling you itexperienced something different,
not necessarily that it's quoteunquote optimal for muscle
growth or that it's doinganything more than something
(05:05):
that doesn't make you sore.
So I want to talk about whythis distinction between
different and optimal is thecritical piece.
So we're going to get to theheart of our member's question
Can you get sore without gettingstronger?
Absolutely, and can effectiveworkouts leave you without
soreness?
Also, absolutely so they'reindependent variables, is my
(05:27):
point.
One doesn't follow from theother per se.
So, for example, you can getincredibly sore from activities
that really don't do anythingfor your strength, muscle,
physique goals.
You know, I've seen peoplereport soreness after moving
from one house to another, doingyard work, taking a long hike,
especially if you don't do itoften or if you're going uphill
(05:49):
and you normally go on flat land.
And none of these activitieswere designed specifically to
train and progress over time tobuild muscle, but they create
plenty of DOMS.
On the flip side, you can makehuge strength and muscle gains
with minimal soreness onceyou're adapted to your training
routine, and this is one of thebiggest surprises I face all the
(06:09):
time.
In fact, it creates concern insome people's minds.
It's like, oh, I'm not gettingsore.
What is going on?
Is this actually working?
And I work with, you know,newbies, late beginner, early
intermediate, late intermediate,advanced lifters, all at
different levels, who, they'llrarely get sore because their
bodies have adapted to thestimulus really quickly, like
(06:31):
within a few sessions, is oftenthe case, and we see this even
in a single training block, likeif I switch from one six week
block into a new block with newlifts.
I may get a little bit soreafter those first couple
sessions, or even each of thosesessions the first week because
it's all new movements I haven'tdone in a while.
And then by the next week it'sall good and I don't feel sore
anymore, right, and yet you'restill increasing and adding
(06:54):
weight to the bar, adding repsto your lifts.
So let's step back and talkabout first principles again.
Muscle hypertrophy the growth inmuscle size, is driven by
mechanical tension, progressiveoverload and sufficient volume
over time.
Now mechanical tension isreally what it is, because the
progressive overload and thevolume is just a way to increase
(07:15):
that over time as it getsharder and harder to do so
unless you increase thechallenge on your muscles.
Soreness correlates with noneof these.
That's the revelation here.
You can create mechanicaltension through heavy compound
movements without generatingsignificant soreness.
You can progressively overloadby adding weights, reps or sets
(07:37):
without chasing any sort ofsoreness or pain.
So this addresses the secondpart of the question.
Yes, you're absolutely doingenough if you are increasing
weight in reps over time,regardless of the soreness level
.
And, just as a quick aside,because we're talking about
progressive overload andtracking and training and what
matters for your physique.
(07:57):
This is something we definitelyhelp out with in Physique
University, which is where themember question comes from.
When you join, you get not onlya custom nutrition plan if you
use the special link in the shownotes this is for podcast
listeners only.
Not only do you get that, wehave training templates that are
designed around theseprinciples and also flex around
your days per week, yourequipment access, your
(08:19):
experience level, and none ofthem have to do with chasing
soreness in any way.
And you could always joinPhysique University using the
link in the show notes and tryit out.
We've got a series of lessonsthat will onboard you into how
to lift weights, how to breathe,how to brace, how to you know
should you wear squat shoes, howto use a power rack, how to use
rest periods and so on.
(08:40):
So, again, if you want to joinPhysique University to get all
of that, it's still just $27 amonth and if you use the special
link in the show notes, youwill get a custom nutrition plan
absolutely free included inthat.
All right.
Next up, I want to explain thesort of fascinating physiology
behind why experienced liftersget less sore over time and why
(09:01):
that's good for progress.
So this is called the repeatedbout effect.
When you perform the sameexercise pattern repeatedly,
your body adapts, not just bygetting stronger but becoming
more resistant toexercise-induced damage, and
this means less soreness overtime, even as you're making
better gains.
Your muscle fibers become moreresilient to mechanical stress.
(09:23):
Your inflammatory responsebecomes more efficient.
Your nervous system coordinatesmovement patterns more smoothly
.
Now for some of us that's goodand at the same time means you
have to continue challengingyourself over time.
It's kind of a double-edgedsword.
So beginning lifters often doexperience significant soreness
in those first few days or evenweeks, because everything is new
(09:45):
to them.
Everything is novel.
Their muscles, their connectivetissues, their nervous systems
are all adapting simultaneously.
But then, as they progress, thesoreness diminishes while the
strength and muscle masscontinue increasing.
For some people it happens veryquickly.
For some people the sorenesslasts a little bit longer and
also it's affected by yourrecovery needs.
And this is why chasingsoreness through constant
(10:08):
exercise variation right whatsome people used to call muscle
confusion, or if you look at theCrossFit community, they seem
to put on a pedestal.
The idea of constantly varied,which we know, in and of itself
has no benefit whatsoever otherthan it might be fun.
But if we're trying to makeprogress to something here, fun
can't be the only variable.
It can interfere with yourprogress.
Is what I'm saying?
(10:28):
You're preventing your bodyfrom adapting efficiently to the
movements that drive the bestresults.
Why do you think I haveprograms like Ironclad in our
training templates that areactually built on lots and lots
of increasing volume over timewithout changing the movements?
It's to create that efficientadaptation so that you could
then get stronger and build moremuscle.
So we've covered what DOMS is.
(10:50):
We've covered why it's not aprogress indicator.
But soreness does tell yousomething useful about your
training.
So I want to explain what thatis.
It is telling you about thenovelty.
So you've introduced a newexercise or rep range or
training volume or movementpattern, and soreness often
indicates an emphasis oneccentric contractions, like I
(11:12):
alluded to earlier.
And this can actually bevaluable for your muscle
development when you program itthe right way.
So that's one thing.
Soreness can also signalrecovery issues.
This can actually be valuablefor your muscle development when
you program it the right way.
So that's one thing Sorenesscan also signal recovery issues.
So this is where I think it'svery, very helpful.
If you are consistently gettingexcessive soreness from what
I'll call your routine workoutsor training sessions, that might
(11:33):
indicate a lack of sleep,insufficient protein or calories
, high stress levels, poorhydration, just too much volume,
your body just isn't recoveringefficiently between sessions.
Now, individual variability ishuge here, as always, right, we
know this.
Some people are geneticallypredisposed to more
(11:54):
exercise-induced inflammation.
Others have like their musclefiber composition is more
resistant to damage.
And you know, neither of theseindicate better or worse
training outcomes.
It's just differences and youhave to understand your body.
But here's where soreness canbecome counterproductive to your
goals.
Extreme soreness this is thekind that makes it difficult to
(12:17):
walk downstairs, where you'relike man, I'm slammed, that
crushed me, that killed me.
I can barely stand up.
I remember my first couple oftimes doing CrossFit.
I literally felt like I wasgoing to die, like I was going
to puke.
I had to lay down.
It was just insane, right?
That kind of soreness where youcan't even lift your arms up is
going to interfere with yourtraining quality.
It just is.
(12:37):
When you are significantly sore,you're going to move
differently, you're gonna have adecreased range of motion,
you're gonna have less strength,you're gonna have poorer
technique.
It's just this systemic fatigueemanating throughout your body,
and so it creates a cascade ofproblems Poor movement quality.
What does that do?
Well, it increases injury risk.
Reduced strength means lessmechanical tension, so you're
(12:59):
actually not going to hit theintensity you intend.
Compromise technique is goingto shift the load away from what
you're trying to do in the gym,which is focus on specific
movements and muscles anddevelop them.
And excessive soreness can setyou back with time, with your
recovery time.
It's not time efficient.
If you're so sore from Monday'sworkout that you can't train
(13:21):
effectively for three or fourmore days, you're going to
create a bottleneck in yourfrequency and then, if you do go
into the gym while you'reexcessively sore, you may
exacerbate the issue.
You know, worst case, best case, you're just going to train but
then not really have muchprogress.
Right, we know that there's acertain amount of frequency,
intensity and volume that areneeded for optimal growth.
(13:42):
So, again, this is why theprograms that I create, the
templates that we have inPhysique University, are
designed around sustainableprogression.
That's really the key here.
You know we focus on thetraining variables that drive
results progressive overload,appropriate volume, optimal
frequency and if you just ignoresoreness completely, you're
(14:03):
probably better off, except forits use as a negative indicator
of too much of something or notenough recovery right Now.
The one thing I didn't mentionwith recovery is if you're doing
a bunch of cardio, if you'redoing a bunch of body weight
stuff in between your trainingsessions, that could be making
you sore too, and then it'sinterfering with everything else
, including your main liftingsessions.
Now this brings us to the mostpractical part of today's
(14:25):
episode.
If you should not tracksoreness, then what should you
be monitoring instead?
All right, let's talk about themetrics that predict success
with your training, right?
So if it's not soreness whichwe've said that that's the case
now it's not your heart rate,it's not how much you sweat,
right, it's not how you feel.
We want to be objective.
(14:46):
We want to use performancemetrics that give you feedback
so you can make informed choices, right?
And the member who wrote thequestion she's already doing a
lot of this.
You can hear the way she framedthe question like I'm doing
this, this, this, this.
Now I'm trying to understandwhere soreness fits into the
equation.
So the first thing is to trackyour strength progression.
Seems obvious but noteverybody's doing it.
I've had advanced clients whojoin and they hadn't been
(15:08):
tracking their workouts and Iwas quite surprised by this.
But it's more often than youthink.
You need to track all yoursessions, your exercises, your
load sets, reps, and then howthat progresses over time.
And to do that you need to knowwhat did you do last time.
If your squat was 225 last time, you're probably going for
maybe 230 this time, or maybeyou're adding a rep, and that
(15:29):
tells you not only what to gofor but whether you're making
progress, regardless of soreness.
So that's strength progression.
Then you have to monitor yourvolume.
Everybody I can't tell you theright volume for you.
It's gonna depend on yourlifestyle, and what I mean by
that is the amount of stress inyour life, your individual
response, and don't buy any ofthe malarkey about men and women
(15:49):
being so different withtraining volume.
There are average.
There might be differences tothe population level, and even
now I'm coming to see there'sprobably not even that, to be
honest that it's much moreindividual from person to person
.
So volume is the whole, thetotal sets that you lift
throughout the week, and somepeople can handle a lot, some
people can't.
And also, if you're in asurplus or maintenance or
deficit, it's going to bedifferent.
(16:10):
And also if you're working submaximally instead of very, at a
very high load, that can affecthow much volume you can take,
because obviously the totaltonnage is different, meaning
the volume times the load right.
So as long as you areincreasing in your overall
volume, which is usuallyindicated by weight on the bar
and or reps, you're getting thestimulus needed for adaptation.
(16:33):
Don't worry about soreness.
The next thing I would ask youto think about is your intensity
.
How hard are you trainingduring your sets?
Are you getting close to therep shy?
Are you getting to the rep shyof failure that you're intending
?
Or, if it sets across, itshould feel, you know, a few
reps shy of failure, dependingon if we're talking compound
lifts or isolation lifts.
(16:53):
The goal again is to createsufficient mechanical tension
without excessive fatigue.
Right to fatigue, not soreness,doesn't matter.
Also, your body compositionchanges matter more than
soreness, because if you'regaining muscle mass and you're
losing body fat, you'reimproving your strength to
weight ratio.
Again, who cares about sorenessunless the soreness is holding
(17:13):
you back?
And so, speaking of that, ofrecovery, since excessive
soreness does often indicaterecovery issues.
Let us walk through strategiesthat work for managing soreness
from a recovery standpoint, sothat you can get the best
adaptations that we're lookingfor, because that's what the
goal is of all of this trainingstuff that we do.
So what is the role of recoveryhere in managing soreness?
(17:35):
Well, the big one is sleepright.
That Muscle protein synthesisis going to peak when you're
sleeping.
Most adults need at least seven, if not eight or nine, hours
for optimal recovery, and if youget enough sleep, you'll
probably actually get far lesssore.
So now we're talking about more.
How do you manage the sorenessitself?
Because in many cases, you'rehaving soreness and you don't
need to.
(17:55):
Having enough food and proteinsupports repair of your tissues.
People forget protein is notjust to build muscle, it's to
repair all tissues in your body.
That's why we need enough ofthose amino acids flooding our
system right.
It's the remodeling of yourbody without the excessive
inflammation because you don'thave enough resources coming in,
and this is where, when you'rein a fat loss phase, you don't
have as many resources.
(18:16):
Protein needs to be even higherthan, or at least kept high,
and you have to manage yourvolume and all the other things
and your sleep and so on.
Hydration is also big right.
In fact, this is often thego-to for a lot of folks.
When you have cramping andsoreness is just, you don't have
enough fluid coming in.
There's your tissues all have.
I mean, we are full of water,right, your tissue has a balance
(18:37):
of water.
Your tissues are always tryingto remove waste and dehydration
can exacerbate soreness anddelay recovery.
Most people need at least halfof their body weight plus 15
ounces of water a day, probablya lot more than that.
If you're training hard, if youlive in hot climates, don't
neglect hydration.
It's huge.
Then we have movement.
(18:58):
Here's the other thing.
People are on their desk allday, even though they lift
weights, even though they go forwalks.
If you're sitting down a lot,that's going to reduce your
blood flow and that's going toincrease your stiffness and
soreness as well.
So, just getting up frequentlyand moving around, right, we're
not talking cardio, we'retalking walking, moving, yoga,
mobility, whatever.
Whatever gets you up and movingdoesn't matter.
Anything that promotescirculation without extra
(19:19):
training, stress, right, we'renot trying to go do more cardio
and all of those things arereally great for managing
soreness.
All right.
Now, before we wrap up, I wantto address all the recovery
methods that you do see promotedonline Real quick ice baths,
foam rolling, supplements andwhat works in the context of
evidence-based sorenessmanagement, because these do
(19:41):
come up.
All right, foam rolling andmassage probably provide some
temporarily, mostly perceptual,relief.
I mean, I get a massage once amonth and I know half of the
reason I go is just because itfeels good, you know it feels
good.
The other half is I thinkthere's probably benefit there
to my fascial tissue on theoutside of my muscles, for a
(20:01):
little bit of my range of motion, for getting some extra.
I'll say stretching and, youknow, digging into the tissue
that I just wouldn't be doing onmy own right For my shoulder,
for example, for my lower back.
Similar thing with foam rolling.
They might make you feel better.
We don't know that theysignificantly accelerate the
recovery process Again outsideof a rehab setting.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm just talking aboutday-to-day soreness, all right,
(20:22):
but some people swear by them.
Some people swear by Thera gunsright, the self massage, really
powerful massage gun.
So that's that's.
That's foam rolling and massage.
What about static stretching?
Static stretching apparentlydoesn't really prevent DOMS and
it may provide some acute relief.
But I think you know myposition on stretching is you
don't really need it as you warmup.
You want to warm up, doing thelift and light movement is fine,
(20:46):
but extended stretchingprotocols doesn't necessarily
have any benefit and it couldbackfire in some cases.
But anyway, it's kind of seemsagnostic when it comes to
soreness.
What about cold water andcryotherapy?
Again, evidence is mixed.
I'm sorry for all of you thatare like gung-ho about cold
plunges these days.
In fact, the more we learnabout icing, the more we think
it may actually arrest thepositive inflammatory response
(21:10):
that you need.
They might reduce perceivedsoreness, but they also can
blunt some adaptation signals ifyou're using a lot.
So if you don't want to do icebaths, you don't need to.
I'm sorry, you just don't.
And I'm not even going to talkabout saunas.
That's one area that I thinkcould be helpful, but I actually
didn't come up with any noteson that, so I apologize.
What about medicines?
What about NSAIDs likeibuprofen?
(21:31):
They do reduce inflammation andthe perception of soreness, but
you don't wanna be chronicallytaking those and they can impair
your muscle growth as well.
They can stop the inflammatoryresponse, which which is part of
the adaptation process.
Remember, inflammation is not abad word, it's a neutral word
of something your body naturallydoes.
The question is excessiveinflammation, chronic
inflammation, versus normaladaptation inflammation.
(21:52):
So if we're constantlysuppressing inflammation, it can
interfere with long-term gains.
All right, we covered whatsoreness is, why it's misleading
, what it actually tells you andhow to manage it properly.
But I want to leave you withone more what it actually tells
you and how to manage itproperly.
But I want to leave you withone more insight to reframe how
successful lifters think abouttheir training.
Most of the successful liftersthat I work with, that I talk to
every day, the ones who aremaking consistent progress
(22:15):
they're really into liftingbecause of the result it gives
them.
They never talk about soreness.
They just.
They just never do.
I mean, you might have this oddday where somebody's like, yeah
, I tried Nordic curls for thefirst time in two years and I
got a little bit sore.
That's kind of the extent of it, unless they're doing something
stupid outside the gym and theyget sore from that.
(22:37):
That can happen.
But I'm talking about justtheir training and they're
focusing on performance.
They're focusing on the liftand their recovery quality and
the long-term progression.
They understand that.
Adaptations about providing theright stimulus consistently over
time, not maximizing acutediscomfort.
I don't even really wantworkouts to feel feel hard in
(22:58):
the discomfort way.
They should feel hard in achallenging way.
That's making progress.
Having said that, I know thereare certain lifts everybody has.
It's like the lift that theyare not a fan of.
Okay, but that's a differenttype of discomfort.
I think that's more mental thananything.
But I think it's a big ironyhere is that once you stop
chasing soreness and sweat andthe YouTube workouts and the
endurance training and the P90Xand the F45 and the CrossFit and
(23:20):
the boot camps and the groupclasses, all that stuff, and
just step back and do some basiclifts, you have plenty of rest
period, enjoy pushing yourselfand challenging yourself to
increase over time.
You often end up with bettersatisfaction and joy from your
training.
You feel more capable, you arestronger.
(23:41):
You see the measurableimprovements week to week.
You build confidence in theprogram because you have
objective data showing it works,because I'll tell you, feeling
wiped after a workout is notobjective data that shows it
works.
So this shift from a pain focusto a performance focus is often
(24:03):
that transition from I was acasual exerciser to now I'm a
serious trainee and that is whenpeople start seeing the
physique changes that they'vebeen working toward, and we
would love to help you do that.
That's what we do all the time.
That is how I design mytraining templates and guidance
around them.
So soreness is a normal responseto a novel stimulus, but it is
(24:24):
neither necessary nor sufficientfor muscle growth and strength
development.
You can get sore fromineffective activities.
You can make excellent progresswith minimal soreness once you
are adapted.
So focus on progressiveoverload, appropriate volume,
recovery, quality, track yourperformance, weight sets, reps,
body composition over time.
These provide much betterfeedback about whether your
(24:45):
training is working.
The goal isn't to punishyourself with miserable workouts
that leave you hobbling aroundas much as that seems to be a
mark of pride in some circles.
The goal is to provide yourmuscles with the stimulus they
need to adapt and grow stronger,while allowing sufficient
recovery for that adaptation tooccur.
All right Hope I made it clear.
(25:07):
If this episode did make itclear, if it clarified your
thinking about soreness versusprogress, just text it to a
friend who's still judging theirworkouts by how much they hurt
afterward.
Share this with someone whoneeds to hear that effective
training doesn't requiresuffering.
Until next time, keep usingyour wits lifting those weights
and remember progress happenswhen you train consistently and
(25:29):
recover well, not when you'retoo sore to move.
This is Philip Pape and you'vebeen listening to Wits and
Weights.
I'll talk to you next time.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
What Are We Even Doing? with Kyle MacLachlan
Join award-winning actor and social media madman Kyle MacLachlan on “What Are We Even Doing,” where he sits down with Millennial and Gen Z actors, musicians, artists, and content creators to share stories about the entertainment industry past, present, and future. Kyle and his guests will talk shop, compare notes on life, and generally be weird together. In a good way. Their conversations will resonate with listeners of any age whose interests lie in television & film, music, art, or pop culture.