Eat More of THESE Mood-Boosting Foods for Everyday Happiness (Dr. Sarah Ballantyne) | Ep 241 - Wits & Weights | Fat Loss, Nutrition, & Strength Training for Lifters

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Philip Pape (00:01):
If you're like most of us, you've probably tried
everything to feel better whenyou're stressed or overwhelmed
Meditation, supplements, youname it but what if the answer
was sitting right there in yourkitchen?
Today, I'm sitting down with DrSarah Ballantyne to uncover the
fascinating link betweenspecific nutrients and happiness
.
You'll learn why certain foodscan boost your mood more

(00:22):
effectively than any supplement,and how simple additions to
your diet could improve yourlife satisfaction as much as
landing your dream job.
Whether you're dealing withdaily stress or you just want to
feel more resilient withoutanother restrictive diet, what
we're about to share will giveyou those practical,
science-backed strategies thatactually work actually work.

(00:49):
Welcome to Wits and Weights,the podcast that blends evidence
and engineering to help youbuild smart, efficient systems
to achieve your dream physique.
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday we are exploring a
surprising connection betweennutrient-dense foods and
happiness with Dr SarahBallantyne.
Now, sarah is a New York Timesbestselling author with a PhD in
medical biophysics, and herresearch background spans a ton

(01:10):
of areas inflammation, immunity,cell biology.
And, after her personalexperience with the limitations
of restrictive dieting raiseyour hand she developed the
NutriVore framework, anevidence-based approach focused
on nutrient density rather thanrestriction.
So today, you're going to learnwhich nutrients are essential
for mood and mental health, howto easily add more

(01:31):
nutrient-dense foods to yourdiet, not take things away, and
why focusing on abundance couldbe the key to both physical and
psychological well-being.
Sarah, thank you so much forcoming on the show.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne (01:42):
Oh, thank you so much for having me, and
I'm just like so excited aboutthis conversation today.

Yeah, as I was saying before we started
recording, you know I personallyhad not followed you until
someone who follows this showrecommended you and then I was
kind of I'll say in love withyour content right away because
of how aligned we are in youknow, the freedom, the freedom
that comes from knowing thereare a variety of ways that you
can eat.
There's no right or wrong.
There's diversity of wonderfulfoods out there.

(02:08):
And you take the lens and theframe of nutrients specifically,
which is also a little bitunique because sometimes it gets
it's like the fourth thingright.
It's like calories, macros,meal timing, oh, and, by the way
, get your nutrients.

It ends up being the fourth thing on a
to-do list where you only everget three things done.

Yes, right.

It's always the so I'm a big to-do
list person.
Every morning I'll like writeout like the things that I want
to accomplish for the day, andthere's always those couple of
things at the bottom of the listthat get pushed to tomorrow and
then pushed to tomorrow andthey don't actually make it far
enough to get done until the daybefore their due right.
I think that getting all of theessential nutrients that we need

(02:49):
I mean no dietary frameworkteaches that the USDA dietary
guidelines doesn't teach us whatnutrients are important.
There's 49 essential nutrients,right, they've just decided it's
too complex.
Right, we'll focus on eatingpatterns.
But when you don't reallyunderstand the whys behind those
eating patterns, it makes itreally really hard to implement.

(03:10):
And so if you don't have anappreciation for I'm getting
these types of nutrients fromthese types of foods, we don't
need to have it like, all 49nutrients memorized, right.
Like we don't need that kind ofencyclopedic knowledge to be
able to figure out, like, withinthe foods we like and fit
within our budget and fit withinthe time we have to prepare
food, we don't need to knowevery single thing about those

(03:31):
foods to be able to make thosechoices so that we're actually
getting the full range ofnutrients our bodies need.
But, like of some basics which,like, we're not taught in
school, we're not taught by themedical establishment, we're not
taught by the different dietaryframeworks that are out there,
that base knowledge changes thegame, right.
It turns any diet into a dietthat actually meets our

(03:52):
nutritional needs, and that isthe thing that actually improves
long-term health.

Yeah, and I think it.
Also it makes it exciting,interesting and desirous to go
after certain foods Like, forexample I think about mushrooms
you talk about ergothionine, Ithink it's called, which we can
get into as like, great forlongevity, I think.
And I would have had no idea.
And also I'm not a huge fan ofmushrooms, Neither is one of my
daughters, but my wife makesthem and throws them in our food

(04:19):
.
We're like we eat them anywayand this is kind of incentive.
You know, it's just.
It's just another incentive toadd in nutritious foods and not
think like it's about weightloss or it's about a macro like
protein or even fiber.
Right, like it's much morenuanced but it doesn't have to
be complicated, is what I'mhearing.

Yes, so I would say it's complex but not
complicated, if that makes anysense, right?
So you know that's a knowledgebase that I need to be able to
communicate, but I don't thinkit's a knowledge base that, like
the average person needs.
I think we can talk about, likesome simple ways to formulate a
plate, some, you know, a shortlist of foods of, like mushrooms

(04:55):
that are important foods to add, right Like, where we can get
those like really cool uniquenutrients and then fill those
nutritional gaps.
But it doesn't need to be like.
I actually think, very, veryimportantly, I want to take the
stress out of food choice.
I think, with restrictive diets, there's a lot of like reading
labels to look for those foodtoxins and those inflammatory

(05:17):
ingredients, right Like I thinka lot of diet culture nowadays
is really focused on identifyingthings to avoid, the vast
majority of which is notconsidering the very important
aspect of dose, like how much ofthat?

compound is a problem.
And context, am I gettingenough?

of that from this food.
Generally, the answer is noright, like, yeah, sure, those
are foods to moderate, but thatdoesn't mean avoid completely,
right, and I think, that yeah,go ahead.

No, no, no, no, go ahead.
Keep going, please.

So I think the challenge right now, in a
time where, like there's so muchfood fear, right, so much
conspiracy theory around food,food choices become a stressful
event, and so I'm not looking tomake it complicated in a way
that's stressful.
I'm looking to redirect ourattention to the things that
really matter, which is does mydiet actually meet my

(06:09):
nutritional needs?
And actually create some simplestructure to take the stress
out of it.
And then, by adopting apermissive structure where we
make room for those deliciousfoods that someone else is
telling me to be terrified of,but I love and makes my life
better when I eat them becausethey give me joy right, if I can

(06:30):
intentionally use those astools for sustainability, those
foods as something reallypositive to include in my diet.
So I'm getting enough joy frommy diet that I can stick to it.
Right, like we're justcompletely changing the way we
think about food choice with thegoal of let's make it fun,
let's make it easy, let's takethe stress out of it.
What foods I eat in the dayshould not be a point of stress

(06:56):
and anxiety.

I totally agree.
I had a delicious apple notlong ago after lunch.
It was like a new variety wehad tried and just the enjoyment
of the taste and the sweetnessand knowing that there's nothing
wrong with fruits.
Like, believe it or not, somepeople think there's something
wrong, you know, granted, if youhad 50 apples a day it might be
a problem.
But again, food matrix.
So it's interesting.
You mentioned joy and positivitybecause kind of the angle I was

(07:18):
hoping to take for today'spodcast and I know we'll go on a
lot of tangents is what theresearch shows about adding
fruits and vegetables into yourdiet to improve well-being, mood
, happiness and I think beyondthat, because people are like,
oh okay, that's a very kind ofnarrow thing.
Look at this as levels, levelsof education and levels of
application, in that there areprobably a lot of people eating

(07:39):
a ton of processed foods withoutmany nutritious foods in their
diet.
They're like what do I even doto start?
And I don't want to go to aNutriVore index and try to make
a whole puzzle out of a millionfoods, right?
So when we talk about joy andwell-being and happiness, I
don't think we're talking aboutnecessarily comfort foods or the
hedonic pleasure.

(07:59):
We're talking about genuine,lasting improvements in our
well-being.
What's the difference betweenthose?
That'll be the first question.
And then what is the baselinestep up people can take in their
diets to get toward that point?

Yeah, so when we talk about quality of
life foods which is how I liketo think of them I'm referring
very specifically to those likehigh dopamine response foods,
right?
So, like the foods that havethat like salt, sugar, fat
combination that just triggerslike all of the reward centers
in our brain that give me, likea short-term like dopamine high,

(08:33):
but that aren't necessarily thefoods that are supplying a lot
of the nutrients that I need forlong-term mental health,
physical health, right, stressmanagement, things that are
actually going to make aprofound impact in just like how
I feel walking through theworld.
I think it's really importantto like have room for both,

(08:55):
right?
So those like dopamine hits.

Oh, for sure.

I don't see those as bad foods but, like
often, we're talking aboutfoods that don't have a lot of
nutritional value and whenthey're overabundant in our diet
, it makes it really hard toselect foods in the rest of our
diet so that we're still gettingall of the essential vitamins
and minerals and amino acids andfatty acids and phytonutrients
that are really important, ifnot technically essential, that

(09:20):
actually support our long-termhealth.
So when we're talking aboutthose foods like, what are the
nutrients that we can focus onto support mental health?
Or, as you just mentioned,right, what is my entry point?
What is my one little thing nowthat I can do?
When I talk about habitformation I love, like, what is
the easiest thing?

(09:41):
What is going to be somethingthat's so easy for you to do
that it's a no-brainer, it fitswithin your budget, it fits
within your time.
It's going to be foods that Imean maybe they're not dopamine
foods, but they're still foodsthat you like and you can build
on that success.
And it is always, always,always.
Let's start with adding aserving of vegetables.
That is, like, always step one,and a part of that is we get

(10:06):
the same benefit to all-causemortality as a general indicator
of health and longevity, goingfrom zero to one servings of
fruits and vegetables per day,as we do from going from one to
four.
So like that first little babystep.

It's like an exponential curve.
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, we get sort of diminishing returns.
We still get benefit goinghigher, but we get sort of
diminishing returns the higherwe go.
And it kind of plateaus.
Different studies showdifferent plateau levels.
Some are as low as threeservings of vegetables per day.
Some are as high as eight right, but five is kind of where most
studies show above that we'renot necessarily getting
additional benefit from moreservings of vegetables.

(10:42):
And then with fruit it's liketwo to three servings is kind of
the sweet spot where we get themost health benefit, kind of
where most of the science is at.
But there was this amazing 2016study, I think out of Australia,
where they looked at justmeasurements of like life
satisfaction, right, so justlike how happy are you, and they

(11:05):
looked at fruit and vegetableintake and they basically showed
that for every servings offruit or vegetable added per day
, that a person ate up to eightservings per day.
Total.
That aligns very well with likefive servings of vegetables and
three servings with a fruit.
They had like this increase inhappiness, well-being, life
satisfaction and the differencethey calculated, right.

(11:27):
So it's sort of a theoreticalstudy.
They calculated the differencebetween going from zero fruits
and vegetables per day to goingto eight was an equivalent
increase in life satisfaction asgoing from unemployed to
employed.
I mean, I would love to seelike an intervention version of
the study where they take peoplewho are not eating any fruits
and vegetables and, like here,eat eight fruits and vegetables

(11:50):
per day and we're going tomeasure, like how long it takes
to like have this improvement inlife satisfaction.
But, based on the data they had, they predicted that
improvement occurs in under twoyears.
Whereas when you think about,like, the benefits of eating
lots of fruits and vegetables Imean you might have some like
digestive improvements that arepretty fast, right, but a lot of
the rationale is so that youwon't have cardiovascular

(12:12):
disease in three years right Todiabetes in 20 years right, it
feels very far off and I thinksometimes it's really hard to
feel motivated to make foodchanges now, especially when
that's really like outside ofour routine and our comfort area
.
It's maybe flavors we're notfamiliar with, Maybe we find
vegetables to be bitter it'sreally hard to make those

(12:32):
choices.
When we're thinking about somekind of far off like consequence
right, that's not going to be aproblem for decades.
But when you think about, yeah,you could feel that much
happier in some months, maybe upto two years.
Now we're talking right Likenow.
This feels like yeah, this isworth it and I'm just going to
be a happier person and all Ihave to do is eat more fruits

(12:53):
and vegetables.
That's amazing, and the bestplace to start is the beginning.
Just add more compared to whatyou're eating now.

Yeah, I feel like we see that similar pattern with
anything that promotes healthyliving, like strength training.
You're not necessarily going toget a ton of benefit in the
first few weeks.
In fact, you might feel likewhat am I doing?
And then it takes a little bit,even like walking more.
We know that's huge forall-cause mortality, but it's
not like you're just going toget an immediate benefit the
first week necessarily.
So, speaking of the fruits andvegetables, then the study

(13:21):
you're talking about is exactlythe one that made me think about
this topic to begin with, andit's in your book.
What's happening at abiochemical level?
Is it changing our mental state, or is it that that lifestyle
is then correlated with overallhealthier eating and behavior?

Yeah, so studies that look at this are
really trying to control for asmany other factors as possible.
So we're trying to make surethat this isn't.
People who eat more fruits andvegetables are also more active
and they're also younger, right,and they also have, you know, a
higher socioeconomic status,like those things are true,
right?
So people who eat more fruitsand vegetables do tend to have

(13:59):
other health related behaviors,but they try to account for that
in their mathematical analysisas much as possible to try to
tease out what part of thiseffect is just the fruits and
vegetables versus, like,something about this group of
people.
But, like, absolutely, there isa piece of this that you know,
health behavior stack, right.
So someone who is very active,probably also trying to get more

(14:20):
sleep, right.
So probably also trying to eata diet to fuel athletic
performance, right, like, we dotend to see those patterns.
But we know also that there'snutrients in fruits and
vegetables that are directlylinked to physical and mental
health.
So big one here is vitamin C,right, fruits and vegetables are

(14:41):
our best food sources ofvitamin C, and vitamin C is a
really key modulator of thestress response.
So vitamin C is required forthe production of catecholamines
like adrenaline, noradrenaline,cortisol, but it also modulates
the sensitivity ofcatecholamine receptors.

(15:02):
So it's also modulating how,like, the body responds to the
production of those stresshormones.
So what happens is when we arenot getting enough vitamin C,
that magnifies the stressresponse.
When we are stressed we kind ofburn through vitamin C so we
kind of get it from like bothsides.
We can kind of get this likerunaway snowball of badness or

(15:23):
we've got a really clearintervention point.
So they've done studies wherethey give people vitamin C.
There's one study done, I think2004, if I remember correctly,
where they gave people vitamin C.
So they did a thousandmilligrams three times a day for
two weeks.
So technically that is abovethe tolerable upper limit of

(15:44):
vitamin C.
So just throwing that littlecaveat out there, the tolerable
upper limit of vitamin C.
So just throwing that littlecaveat out there, the tolerable
upper limit for vitamin C is2000 milligrams.
That's based on GI side effects.
We don't see other negativehealth effects of too much
vitamin C until about 10 gramsper day and that seems to
increase risk of kidney stones,at least in men.
But if anytime you're goingabove the tolerable upper limit,

(16:05):
that's a talk with your doctormoment.
So just throwing out the caveat.
But then they measured thestress response to mental
arithmetic.
So like quick, what's 27 timesthree divided by two plus 17,.
Right, like that type of though.
And you got to figure that out.
Can you really anxious about it?

(16:25):
You got to do it real fast.
Or they had people do publicspeaking and measured their
stress response and showed thatjust two weeks of upping vitamin
C intake really dramaticallydecreased the stress response.
There's been other studiesshowing that people who consume
more vitamin C have lower riskof depression and anxiety.
There was a study out of theNurses' Health Study that showed

(16:46):
that two servings of citrusfruit per day one of our best
food sources of vitamin C,including what's cool about
citrus is the polyphenols incitrus increase the
bioavailability of vitamin C.
So we actually use that vitaminC a little bit more readily.
And they had 18%, 20% somewherein that vicinity reduced risk
of developing depressioncompared to two servings or less

(17:08):
per week.
So that is like just an exampleof one nutrient.
We've got lots of fiber thatimproves the composition of the
gut microbiome, our gut bacteria, and they're linked to just
about everything that can gowrong with us health-wise.
But a major path here is likethey're actually making
neurotransmitters.
They're impacting ourneurological health prettywise.
But a major path here isthey're actually making
neurotransmitters.
They're impacting ourneurological health pretty

(17:28):
dramatically.
We do know there's a verystrong link between gut
microbiome activity and mentalhealth challenges.
There's other things, right,vitamin B6, other nutrients in
fruits and vegetables that aredirectly impacting our
neurophysiology, which weexperience as mood and cognition
and resilience, and that's allin those fruits and vegetables.

(17:52):
So that is like our mechanisticexplanation.
And then we've got the likeadded benefit of.
You know, probably if we'readding more fruits and
vegetables, we're going to startmaking other changes that will
also like getting more activityalso boosts mood, right.

Absolutely.
Getting more sleep also boostsmood right.

So like we're also building more health
habits, that are all going tostack.

Yeah, and there's the benefits like being more
full and having more hydrationand all of that.
I like that you mentioned.
I mean, we talked about thelevels and what we're saying
here is, just by adding somelevel of servings of fruits and
vegetables and we didn't evensay it has to be these or has to
be that you're probably goingto have major benefits.
You mentioned vitamin C.
There's a ton of other vitaminsand minerals and you mentioned

(18:34):
polyphenols and I wanted to hiton that one because I feel like
there's a whole hidden world ofcompounds in vegetables and
fruits that we are oblivious tobecause they're not on a
nutrition label and they're notin an ingredient list.
Can you just talk a little bitabout that and how important
that is?

Yeah, so polyphenols are the best studied
, best understood class ofphytonutrients, phyto meaning
plant, nutrient meaning thingthat we use as a raw material.
Right, and what's interestingabout phytonutrients, like
broadly as a class, is weconsider them non-essential, but
we know that the more are, onaverage.
A lot of that comes out ofresearch into polyphenols.

(19:14):
So it was actually beforevitamin C was identified as the
nutrient that, like if we didn'tget enough, we developed scurvy
.
They knew that lemon juice orlemons or citrus fruit we
developed scurvy.
They knew that lemon juice orlemons or citrus fruit could
treat scurvy.
They also knew, like turnips andturnip greens, like they had
some other like foods that theyknew could prevent scurvy.
And so a lot of that earlyresearch was done on lemons and

(19:35):
there were actually somepolyphenols in a lemon peel I
think it was that theyidentified as being protective
against the scurvy rash, eventhough it was like a whole
separate pathway compared tovitamin C and scurvy.
And so when they first sort ofidentified these polyphenols
they didn't realize it was sucha huge class of molecules at the

(19:57):
time and they actuallyinitially labeled them vitamin P
, like they got to be a vitaminfor a little while and then it
was like, oh, okay, like Plutowas a planet, yeah, they're not
Right.
Yes, very much Like we'rechanging our description.
Once we realize it's nottechnically essential, then we
take it out of the vitaminclassification that you only get
the vitamin name if you'reabsolutely essential.

(20:17):
I mean, there's about 10,000 ofthem and they are broadly
antioxidant andanti-inflammatory, and then
different ones have differentadditional effects, right?
So some can localize indifferent tissues, they can bind
with different receptors.
So we'll see the polyphenols incoffee are different than the
polyphenols in tea, which aredifferent than the polyphenols

(20:39):
in chocolate, which aredifferent than the polyphenols
in citrus fruit, which isdifferent than the polyphenols
in apples.
Right, we're getting differentones from different foods, and
it's actually one of the thingsthat makes different families of
fruits and vegetables sobeneficial and is a really
strong argument for diversifyingour diet as much as possible,
so eating as wide a variety offoods as possible, because then

(21:01):
we're getting maybe these, youknow, 40 polyphenols from this
food and like a different 50polyphenols from this other food
.
But fruits and vegetables aregenerally our best sources,
right?
There's some other, right?
I mentioned chocolate andcoffee and tea.
Legumes, as a general rule, arereally packed with polyphenols
as well, so like lentils arejust like, really really high in

(21:23):
polyphenols, so those are sortof our best sources.
And what's really justfascinating is there's like
increased polyphenol intakereduces risk of again just about
everything that can go wrongwith us health-wise.
Right, it's just one of thosenutrients that, because it's
antioxidant, because it'santi-inflammatory, it then
intersects with just about everypathology, just because

(21:45):
inflammation is part of thepathogenesis of just about every
chronic illness.

Okay, so that makes sense and I'm glad you threw in
.
We don't want to limit thediscussion to fruits and
vegetables.
Right, there's all the otherfood.
I mean, there's a whole bunchof food that has all these
compounds.

Anytime I can bring in chocolate, I'm
going to for sure.

I'm with you, I love chocolate, I love chocolate
Then I guess the next leveldown would be if someone's
saying wanting to go from zeroto two or three servings a day
of something, whether it isfruits and vegetables or some
other compounds, just to make iteasy for them and again we're
talking about mood well-being,kind of this general improvement
in health.
You did mention diversity, sopart of the answer might be well

(22:23):
, it's going to change like dayto day, week to week.
But are there some basics thatyou would say start here?
You know, go to the grocerystore, everyone can get these
things.
Start there and then you canstart to get more complex from
there.

Yeah.
So this argument kind of goesbeyond polyphenols, because
we've got some other classes ofphytonutrients that are really
important, so, for example, theglucosinolates in the
cruciferous vegetable family, sothat's broccoli, cabbage, kale,
those types of vegetables.

And don't leave out Brussels sprouts please, my
favorite.

And Brussels sprouts is also in this
family, yeah.
They reduce risk ofcardiovascular disease and
cancer very, very strongly.
And then some of those becauseagain it's another big class of
phytonutrients are reallyimportant for reducing risk of
neurodegenerative disease likeAlzheimer's disease.
The onion family has a similarclass of phytonutrients called
thiosulfonates Again reducedrisk of cancer, type 2 diabetes,

(23:14):
cardiovascular disease.
The beet like beets are kind ofa small family, like it's beets
and chard and amaranth and likeprickly pear and dragon fruit,
but they have a class ofphytonutrients called betalains,
named after being discovered inbeets, that really strongly
reduce risk of cardiovasculardisease but also improve muscle

(23:36):
like exercise performance andmuscle recovery.
It's why beetroot supplementsare like all over social media.

right now they're in pre-workouts, betaine yeah,
yeah yeah, that's true.

And then we've got you know like we can
keep going right with theergothionine, which is a really
cool antioxidant amino acid.
That's non-proteinogenic, so wedon't incorporate it into our
proteins but it still hasbiological roles in our bodies
From mushrooms.
It's also been nicknamed thelongevity vitamin by scientists
because it's so stronglyantioxidant, reduces risk of
basically everything associatedwith aging, which includes

(24:07):
Alzheimer's disease, parkinson'sdisease, dementia in general.
So if we start to think about,like the patterns, like what
types of fruit and vegetablefamilies we're going to get
these from, like I've alreadynamed some, right?
So cruciferous vegetables liketicking that box, super
beneficial.
The onion families that includeonions, garlic chives right,
ticking that box, superbeneficial, the onion family.
So that would include onions,garlic, chives.

(24:27):
Right, ticking that box, superbeneficial.
Mushrooms ticking that box.
Citrus fruits those polyphenolsare so beneficial.
Ticking that box.
Berries are best food source ofanthocyanins, which also improve
exercise performance and musclerecovery, but also can reduce
pain sensation.
Exercise performance and musclerecovery but also can reduce

(24:48):
pain sensation, so it can bevery, very helpful for chronic
pain.
Our best food source of thoseis berries.
So, like there's another box tocheck, we can look at the
sugars that are really good forthe gut bacteria in leafy
vegetables like lettuce orspinach.
We can look at the slow burningcarbohydrates, also really good
for the gut microbiome in rootvegetables.
So like those are like the onesthat come to mind as like if

(25:10):
we're going to start adding,like trying to get as much like
spread across those fruit andvegetable families as possible,
get those beats maybe like oncea week, right?
So some people think of this astrying to hit the different
colors of fruits and vegetables.
So there's five color familiesred, orange and yellow, green,
blue and purple, white and brown.
But I think eat the rainbow andlike the different fruits and

(25:32):
vegetable families are likeoverlapping concepts but they're
still slightly different.
Right, like you can get to oneplace from the other.
Right, you can focus on thefruit and vegetable families and
end up at eat the rainbow.

But I kind of think like- yeah, and you can have
like three things with one color, but still diverse, right, yes,
exactly.

My wife in case she does that.

I'm like we're eating a white dinner tonight,
aren't we?
But it's like cauliflower andthree other things that are just
light colored.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyn (25:58):
Cauliflower and turnips, and yeah, you can
absolutely get diversity andit's not Eat the Rainbow and you
get diversity and it's not eatthe rainbow and you can get eat
the rainbow and still be hittingall the same fruit and
vegetable family.
So I kind of like you know bothof those concepts ideally,
would kind of be somewhere inour brain.
Right Like, okay, this has beena lot of cruciferous vegetables
this week.
Now maybe let me add some likecarrots, or you know, some

(26:21):
asparagus, right, something froma completely different
vegetable family, even thoughI'm still hitting green.
Right Like now I'm mixing upwhich vegetable family I'm
actually selecting from.
So kind of having those ideas.
But it doesn't mean like, okay,I just listed 7,000 foods.
It doesn't mean we need to go.
You know, I would.

(26:41):
Generally nutrition changes.
We never want to go from zeroto 100 in 0.6 seconds.
Right Like, that can actuallycause increased GI symptoms.
Right Like, it's not generallyfun.
And why, like there's no liketime limit here?
Right, there's no deadlinewhere someone's gonna be like,
oh, you're not eating your fiveservings of vegetables yet or
your three servings of fruit yetYou're gonna like fail your

(27:03):
assignment.
Like there's not a teacherwaiting for you to turn it in.
There's no timeframe that wehave to accomplish all of these
diet changes in, which is great,because that gives us
permission to tackle that stepby step, to set ourselves up, to
figure out each piece, turnthat into a healthy habit, build
that success and then figureout what the next piece is going

(27:25):
to be so we can each take ourown path there.
And maybe it's adding a servingof vegetables to lunch, right?
Maybe that's the first step.
And with lunch, okay, what'sgoing to be easiest for me?
Maybe some carrot and celerysticks with a dip I really like.
Maybe it's adding some lettuceto my sandwich, right.
Or picking a soup that has somevegetables in it, right, some

(27:46):
chicken vegetable soup for lunch.
Maybe it's some guacamole,right.
Like what is the thing that'sgoing to make sense in my life?
And like I'm going to work onthat habit.
And then I'm going to go okay,well, I've got veggies and dip,
like as a lunch food, as part ofmy routine, so now I'm going to
try to mix up those veggies.
So now I'm going to try to add,you know, some kohlrabi,

(28:09):
delicious cruciferous vegetablethat is a great dipping
vegetable, I know, not familiarfor a lot of people, but because
of that it tends to be veryaffordable, or some, you know,
broccoli or cauliflower.
Maybe I'll add some tomatoes,right, like maybe I'm going to
branch out my veggies that I'mgoing to dip in for lunch, right
, like maybe I'm going to branchout my veggies that I'm going
to dip in for lunch, right, sonow I can start adding that more
rainbow of colors, moredifferent fruits and vegetable

(28:30):
families.
So I think it's important tosort of give ourselves
permission to iterate in a waythat we're still making those
steps towards diet improvementand towards that diet that is
going to increase our lifesatisfaction dramatically from
unemployment to employmentlevels, their life satisfaction
dramatically from unemploymentto employment levels.
But do it in such a way thatwe're not tackling it with a
diet mentality right.

(28:51):
We're not like jumping in andlike muscling our way through
until we can't anymore and thenfalling off that bandwagon.
Instead we're adopting it as alifelong healthy habit.
So that means making it so muchpart of our routine.
That's the norm, right, that'sthe automatic, that's the
default mode and that's where wesee, like, the really dramatic

(29:12):
improvements to long-term healthoutcomes is when we can make
those healthy not just dietchanges, lifestyle changes to
health-related behaviors.
When we can make all of thatour default mode, that's when we
really win.

Carol (29:24):
Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying
to lose weight and was reallystruggling with consistency, but
from the very beginning, philiptook the time to listen to me
and understand my goals.
He taught me the importance offueling my body with the right
foods to optimize my training inthe gym, and I lost 20 pounds.
More importantly, I gainedself-confidence.

(29:46):
What sets Philip apart is thepersonal connection.
He supported and encouraged meevery step of the way.
So if you're looking for acoach who cares about your
journey as much as you do, Ihighly recommend Philip Pape.

Yeah, I agree.
I like the accessible approachyou talked about and adding
things in.
That's a revelation I had a fewyears ago as well and it's a
big switch for people, right.
I know you came from a paleobackground and I did as well,
and it was like what do you noteat?
As opposed to let's add stuffin.

And also perfect or bust right yeah.

Like that is oh yeah, all or nothing.
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it was like oh, you ate rice,
you're not paleo, right?
Like I mean paleo communities.

Oh, but I'm doing modified paleo anyway.

Right, I mean, the paleo community is not
the only one like this, whereit's like you have to do all of

(30:58):
this perfectly every single day.

Or it doesn get back to not worried about what
happens two years from now, oryou're going to not get
cardiovascular disease, which isgreat, but also how's it
improving my life in the moment?
So two follow-ups then, fromeverything you said.
First, I can just picture awonderful week of menu options
for my meal prep based on allthese, because my wife does most
of the cooking these days, butshe definitely loves a lot of

(31:22):
what you said, especially beets,and so my first question is
that's on my very short list oflike.
It's very difficult for me toeat let's just put it that way
like beets, tomatoes andmushrooms, and so I'll have like
tomato soup or like masheddiced tomatoes in there.
You know, I'll say I'll haveher or me sneak it in Same thing
with mushrooms.
You know, chop them up.
Beets, however.

(31:42):
I've had difficulty.
So for everybody listeningwho's picky about any number of
these things which you know is afact, people are picky what are
your go-to one or twostrategies to start actually
incorporating these?

So, first of all, I think hiding foods you
don't like from yourself is anabsolutely valid strategy.
So chopping up those mushroomsand adding them to like a mince
right, like that's actually howI got my kids to like mushrooms.
I started with chopping them upvery, very small and putting
them in like shepherd's pie typedishes where you can't really,

(32:16):
and you got rid of the texture.
Then it's just like a littlebit of umami flavor.
That's how I got them to likemushrooms.
Then it was very, very smallpieces in soup, right, like we
built it slowly over time.
So, like, hiding it fromyourself is great, but there's
like there's some specifictricks for specific food.
You mentioned beets.
So the thing that most peopledon't like in beets is called

(32:39):
jasmine.
I think that's how it'spronounced.
I don't know.
I'm just trying to say itconfidently so we don't second
guess my pronunciation.

We'll remember Princess Jasmine.
That's how my kids remember it.
Okay.

So that's got a really like earthy flavor.

Yes, it tastes like dirt.
That's my opinion.
It just tastes like dirt, okay,some people are more sensitive
to it than others.

So you're like a super taster for Jasmine
or geosmin again, and that isusually the flavor that people
really strongly dislike in beets.
So one thing to know is thatsome varieties of beets don't
have as much, so like goldenbeet tend to have less than like
the beet colored beets.
You know, like those reallydeep red, like our standard

(33:19):
typical beets.
The flavor is a little bitmilder raw and you can eat beets
raw.
So you might like it grated andadded to a salad or sliced
really thin and added to a salad, especially golden beets, if
you don't like the flavor ofthem roasted.
But also we can deactivate thatflavor with an acid.
So that's why dishes that uselike balsamic vinegar and beets

(33:42):
like roasted together delicious,right.
So like you're actuallydeactivating a lot, and the
smaller you cut your beets, themore you can get that acid in
there.
So you might like pickled beetsmore than fresh beets, right?
So like understanding thosetips people who don't like
cruciferous vegetables.
It's actually theglucosinolates, those like
really beneficial phytonutrientsin there.

(34:03):
Some people are bitter supertasters so they can taste that
flavor just so much morestrongly than most people can,
and some people can't taste itat all.
For some people Brusselssprouts are sweet, which is wild
to me.
I'm a bitter taster but not asuper taster, so for me they're
bitter, but they're pleasantlybitter.
But there's some people forwhom that is just so much.

(34:26):
So, things that you can do, youcan blanch the vegetable before
you cook it, however you weregoing to.
That'll leach some of thosebitter compounds out.
So like blanch your broccoli oryour Brussels sprouts and then
roast it.
Then you can also like okay,it's got a flavor, let's balance
it.
So we can balance with someacidity, some astringency.
So use some lemon juice or somevinegar.

(34:48):
We can balance with somesweetness.
So I make a Brussels sproutdish where I roast them first
and then I toss them with atablespoon for a whole big dish
of maple syrup and balsamicvinegar.
You can see, balsamic isdefinitely my go-to.
And then I love adding, likesome toasted pecans, maybe a
little bit of bacon, right, likejust like that.

Oh my God, I gotta go to dinner at your house.
This is great.

Right.
So it's understanding, likewhat is in this thing that I
don't like and how can I balancethat with culinary techniques
so that the full experience issomething that I will like?
There was a study done just afew years ago where they served
vegetable dishes in collegecafeterias.
They did this study in fivedifferent college cafeterias and

(35:34):
I think they had like 70different vegetable dishes and
they tested giving thevegetables either like a neutral
name, like green beans, or ahealth-focused name, like
nutritious green beans, or ataste-focused name like sizzling
Sichuan green beans withtoasted garlic.

You got me on that.
I know which one wins.

Right, well, yeah, the exact same dish.
The only thing different wasthe name on the label in front
of it.
And they actually they did asmuch control as they could, so
they actually made sure that theentire menu was the same, so
that the dish was presentedbeside the exact same things.
And then, like five weeks apart, now it's the exact same green

(36:17):
bean dish, but now with adifferent name.
And they showed that, comparedto the neutral name, giving
those green beans a health focusname decreased vegetable
selection by 15%.
Very, very sad.
And giving it a taste focusname increased vegetable
selection by 14%.
So the difference was 29%between nutritious green beans

(36:38):
and sizzling Sichuan green beanswith toasted garlic, even
though it was the exact samedish, like prepared the exact
same way.
And then they showed that, whenthey had the taste focus names,
people on average ate 1.78kilograms more of the vegetable
dishes per day, which is, by theway, like the equivalent of

(36:59):
about five servings.
Right, like it's just a huge,huge difference.
It was like 38%, 39%.

They're going to be so happy.

They're going to be so happy, yes, and
you know what, when you're incollege you need it.
So, all good.
They showed some other coolthings, like the college
cafeterias that just sort of hada reputation for making better
vegetable dishes.
People just selected morevegetables period from those
college cafeterias, right?
So there, there's other thingsthat went into this.
And then they did all this likepsychology, like side

(37:27):
experiments, to make sure it wasthe anticipation of delicious
flavor that was really the keydriver of that effect, which it
was.
But, like, that's like anotherthing that we can do in our own
homes, right, so like, maybe itis perusing the cookbooks we
already have or some recipes onthe internet for the things that
just they look delicious.

(37:47):
Right, it doesn't necessarilyhave to be the name, it just has
to be the anticipation.
Right, oh my gosh, look at thisamazing, you know, beet salad
with walnuts and arugula andgoat cheese.
This looks delicious.
Let's make this, right.
And then we're like, we'reexpecting it to be good because
we've looked for the things thatlook like a really delicious

(38:09):
way to prepare that meal, andthen, if it's not like, you keep
going, right, you keepexploring until you find the one
that you like.
Or why can't we give dishessnazzy names at home, right,
like why can't we call thatsteamed broccoli, right?
Yeah, it's basic, it's juststeamed broccoli, but we could
call it beyond basic broccolibomb.

(38:31):
I really should have hadsomething prepared.

Yeah, I love it.
No, I give you credit fortrying to come up with something
on the spot.

I just went straight to alliteration.
I'm like what are all of thebeautiful broccoli something?

There's something alliterative, bombastic broccoli
.
Yeah, yeah, I know what youmean.

Best beautiful broccoli something.
But yeah, like we can still dothat at home.
So, like, also like takingadvantage of that.
Psychology and studies do showthat like our flavor preference
is very affected by familiarity.
So even just like you might notlike it now, but like having it
more often, you may develop aliking for it, right, so there
could be a genetic thing that'skind of hard to like if cilantro

(39:09):
tastes like soap you might notever get there, that's fine, but
like we can leverage theseother tools to still work on
that, habit formation.

Cool.
I love it all.
I mean, there's not really,I'll say, an excuse holding us
back if we want to incorporatethese.
It's the naming or the skill ofthe cooking or how you cook it.
Or you mentioned recipes.
I mean, recipes have been hotfor a decade plus.
Now you know one thing I givecredit to some of the dieting
camps.
They come up with some amazingrecipe books, right Like the

(39:39):
paleo and all of them.
Sometimes, you know, theyreally go out of their way to
try to do that.
I think a good segue because Iwant to make sure to cover this
while I have your time is yourhistory and evolving your views.
And you mentioned somethingearlier.
Actually, quote you said whatdid you say today?
I wrote it down oh, reallyimportant, but not technically
essential.
I want to tease on that.

(40:00):
I know where you're going withthat and I want to do it in the
context of, for example, at themacro level carbs okay, and I
want to do it in the context of,for example, at the macro level
carbs okay.
Hot button topic, and we knowthat it is also again in paleo,
no grains, carbs tend to belower.
In keto, it's like super lowcarb.
It's a whole thing.
It's been a huge thing.
So I have your book right andhighlighted a section that says

(40:20):
contrary to purported claims,rigorous and well-controlled
metabolic ward studies haveconfirmed that low-carbon keto
diets don't turn us intofat-burning machines with
increased energy expenditure andpreferential fat loss.
If anything, they do theopposite and they may be
associated with unwanted sideeffects.
And the side effects might be areflection of how many amazing
things insulin does to the bodybeyond simply shuttling glucose

(40:43):
cells.
And I'm not trying to get into acarb debate or anything, even
though you and I are probably onthe same page there.
It's more of the skepticism ofthe industry and also how we
evaluate all of this stuff.
But how do we frame it?
Just like you framed vegetablesinto a positive right, Whether
it is carbs or some othervilified thing.

(41:03):
This is a big topic, right?
It's kind of what you're allabout.
So I want to hear how that'shappened.
And now you've got a historybehind you that people will
still bring up, because you'vekind of betrayed a whole bunch
of people that you may havesupported, and now you've got
folks criticizing you with thenew stuff.
So what are your thoughts onall that?

Yeah, it feels like a lot of threads to
pull together.
So first, I sort of address youknow you mentioned earlier that
I came from paleo, right, Isort of come from that food fear
don't eat these foods becauseof the lectins right type place
and my transition toevidence-based was iterative.

(41:43):
It took place over severalyears.
Evidence-based was iterative.
It took place over severalyears.
I started talking about it in2019 and you know, I don't know
when I finished like I don'tknow at what point.
I was like aha, now I havefinally addressed all of my food
fears and I've moved on and I,you know, have this like
different perspective.
Maybe I'm not, maybe I haven'tfinished my transition, maybe

(42:04):
I'm still in the middle of it.
I will only know that in thefuture when I look back on this
moment.
Right, but that was very muchdriven by for me, like
researching the gut microbiomeand being confronted again it's
this sort of iterative processby studies that were showing me
the incredible benefit of foodsthat I was afraid to eat, right,

(42:25):
of foods that I had learned tobe fearful of in this community.
I'm like, yeah, but like, lookat how amazing these specific
types of fiber are and thesepolyphenols, right, and this
collection of nutrients thatlentils have for the gut
microbiome and the improvementsin gut microbial activity that
are then reducing risk ofcardiovascular disease and type

(42:46):
2 diabetes and Alzheimer'sdisease.
And oh, by the way, look atthese studies showing the more
legumes like lentils somebodyeats, the lower the risk of
those health conditions.
And that was sort of like thebeginning of me opening my eyes
to the logical fallacies that Ihad bought into, right?
So this idea that just becausesomething is harmful in large

(43:10):
doses right, or that I canidentify a chemical in a food
that is harmful, that doesn'tmean the whole food is bad for
my whole body.
And we really want to look at,okay, so sure, this food has
carbohydrates, carbohydrates intheir simplest form, in
overabundance.
If I'm eating, like, just plainsugar, like yeah, that is going
to, you know, eventually leadto insulin resistance because

(43:33):
I'm sort of inundating thesystem with glucose.
And so the logical fallacy, theway that I used to think of, is
like okay, so this foodcompound, look at how harmful it
is.
Therefore, the whole foods thatcontain sugar or lectins or
whatever, I shouldn't eat those.
But we also have to look at whatare the nutrients in this

(43:53):
system, right?
So am I being compensated,let's say, in this potato, by
minerals and vitamins that arerequired for the insulin
response, right, that arerequired to produce insulin that
actually improve how thegluteal force quarter is like
receptor right Into my blood sothat I'm not actually

(44:15):
overwhelming that system,because there's also like fiber
and resistant starch right Inthese potatoes.
So like let's look at how thewhole food because foods are
also biologically complex as weare let's also not look at just
the one system, right, let's notjust look at insulin.
Let's look at how thatpotassium is improving my kidney
health and helping to reduce myblood pressure, right, like

(44:39):
let's look at how this is areally satiating food so that
it's actually going to helpregulate my hunger hormones.
Right, like there's otherthings that we want to look at.
And so for me, the transitionis really marked by like taking
a much more like 30,000 footview to how I look at foods and
looking at the biggest and mostrigorous studies, looking at

(44:59):
systematic reviews andmeta-analyses and not looking as
much the interaction betweenone food compound and one
biological system right, so,getting away from mechanisms
which hurts my heart a littlebit because that's the medical
research I used to do.
But getting away from mechanismsto look at the big picture and
I think that is like thematic inthe wellness community now is

(45:20):
sort of like missing the forestfor the trees because we get so
focused on oxalates, right, like17 different conditions.
Then oxalates cause, in a very,very small set of circumstances
, right, kidney stones andmissing the part of.
Yeah, but these vegetables aresome of the most important
vegetables for kidney health andwhen we eat more of these
vegetables we reduce risk ofkidney stones.

(45:41):
Right, because there's othernutritive compounds that are
affecting that system.
So we need to look at their neteffect, not one specific one.
So that's sort of like the waythat I've changed thinking about
it.
And with carbohydrates,specifically, right, are we
looking at insulin as just doingthis one thing binding with its
receptor, making the glute fortransporter.
We move from inside of the cellinto the cell membrane so

(46:02):
glucose can get inside the cell.
But insulin does so much morethan that.
I mean hormones in general.
There's no hormone that onlyhas one job.
Hormones are really reallyfascinating.
They're signaling molecules, sothey cause other things to
happen.
But insulin is important forthyroid hormone conversion, so
it's directly controlling ourmetabolism.

(46:22):
It's important for gettingamino acids into our muscle
tissues and for myosynthesis, soreally important for muscle
repair and recovery and forgaining strength.
That's why you don't find a tonof low carb athletes, at least
not ones that stay that way fora long period of time.
It's really important for itaffects bone derived neurotropic

(46:43):
factor, which is a reallyimportant cognition
neurotransmitter in our brains,so very important for cognition.
So people who either areinsulin resistant like we don't
want that either right, or whoare on extremely low
carbohydrate diets, tend to notbe able to solve puzzles as
quickly, right, when they're putinto these different

(47:04):
experiments testing cognition.
Also affects sex hormonebinding globulin in our
bloodstream, so can thereforethen affect androgens, so
estrogen, progesterone,testosterone and all of the
downstream effects there, right.
So like insulin does so much,and that's why we kind of see
the similar types of healthproblems in, for example, people

(47:26):
with type two diabetes, as wedo in long-term ketogenic diets,
which certainly havetherapeutic potential right,
like can be life-changing forpeople with refractory epilepsy.
So I'm like not saying thatthere's not a time and a place
for making that trade, but whenwe're so focused on weight loss
as the only target of a diet andwe are only thinking about the

(47:52):
weight that we're going to lose,doing whatever the template is,
and we're not thinking aboutthe health ramifications.
We're in a situation wherewe're trading health for weight
loss and that is because of thelack of nutrients.
When you start cutting outfoods, developing food fear,
you're cutting out the importantnutrients that are important
for all these other systems andadopting a really simplistic

(48:14):
view of things like what insulindoes.

Yeah, exactly, there's a lot to unpack.
I'm not going to address it all, but kind of the big takeaways
for me is one how you shiftedfrom looking at mechanisms,
mechanistic outcomes and so manystudies, even that not only
they're mechanistic, they don'teven you know they might be on
rats only and there's otherconfounders there.
Like, if you believed some ofthose studies, you would say

(48:39):
protein is terrible for you.
You know, and I'm like, okay,so not mechanistic, but more in
context.
And then I kind of visualizedhow we have you said, the
biggest picture of all and kindof, if you drill from the bottom
up, you have the food youmentioned, the potato, all of
the compounds, all the nutrientsin that and how they work
together and sometimes theyoffset others, and there's the
dose level as well.

(48:59):
Then you have the food matrixof your diet, right, like,
combining all these thingstogether also has context.
And then your lifestyle orhumanity or whatever level you
want to go to.
I'm thinking of, like, the humanindividual and their day to day
and week to week.
It's so powerful because it'sliberating.
I mean it's liberating whenpeople hear that and they're
like, look, I really can't eatanything.
I just have to, like,understand why I'm doing it and

(49:22):
the benefits it gives me and addin, from a nutrient perspective
, that's your kind of primarylens is super powerful, so I
think this is good.
I guess I would ask you ifthere's anything I hadn't asked
I know there's a millionquestions I could have asked and
what your answer would be ifthere's something you don't want
the listener to take away fromthis.

Well, I guess the big thing that I just
want to say is that the learningabout nutrients I mean, I've
tried to make it as easy aspossible with my book, with my
website, with my social media,but it's still like it's a
really big topic, right, there'speople who dedicate their
entire scientific careers toiteratively expanding human

(50:02):
knowledge on like one tinylittle piece of it.
Right?
So, like professor kevin hall,who has done all these like
amazing metabolic board studiesto bust the insulin model of
obesity right, he's dedicatedhis entire career to just this
tiny little piece and hisstudies are so important, but
it's really just like one littlepiece of an entire field of
science, right so?
Just like you wouldn't learnall of physics in a day, you

(50:24):
wouldn't learn all of chemistryin a day.
Or math in a day, you're notgoing to learn all all of
physics in a day.
You wouldn't learn all ofchemistry in a day.
Or math in a day.
You're not going to learn allof nutritional sciences in a day
.
But I also think that increasingour scientific literacy on
nutrition topics is not only ourpath to understanding how to
make those easy additions andsimple swaps within our food

(50:46):
preferences to increase ournutrient intake.
But it's also our path to beingable to identify misinformation
and like fear-based marketingonline, and I know that like not
everyone agrees with like mypoint of view.
Now, I've done a lot, a lot, alot of work, both in like

(51:07):
understanding where my foodfears came from and where my own
susceptibility to diet andnutrition misinformation came
from.
And then extra, extra, extraresearch to help like fix those
things that I got wrong in myown brain and then be able to
like communicate that online.
And it's okay if you're likenot bought into every piece of

(51:30):
that, but the understanding, thescience right, like
understanding how we like goabout designing a study so that
we can answer these unansweredquestions, understanding where
the limits of human knowledgeare so that we can understand
the importance of new researchas it's published, and then
understanding that basic thesenutrients do this, these foods

(51:53):
have this nutrients.
That is the pathway not just tofood choice without stress, but
also the worst parts of dietculture that actually preys on
how little the average personactually knows about nutrients
and that will make for a muchmore informed user base, right,

(52:15):
who are much less susceptible topredatory marketing.
So I invite you to come join meon that.
Learning Doesn't all happen allat once, but I've created a lot
of resources, like my freeweekly newsletter, like all of
my social media that tries toput that into bite-sized, like
fun little pieces so that itdoesn't feel like you're back at
school but more like you'rejust like scrolling the most

(52:38):
educational yet entertainingsocial media feed ever.

Such a positive message and I do love your
Instagram feed and your reelslike walking through the woods
we were talking about.
They're great.
Such a positive message and Ido love your Instagram feed and
your reels like walking throughthe woods we were talking about.
They're great.
Probably a good way to open upyour mind.
I do want to defend you in acouple of ways for folks, just
so you know kind of my contexthere.
Shout out to Aurora, who's afollower of Sarah's, and she
turned me on to Sarah.
So shout out to you.
I know you listen to the show.

(53:03):
But two things I noticed.
Sometimes the criticism isabout evidence, which is kind of
insane, because your book haslike 40 something pages of
citations and you could justyeah 460 studies mostly
systematic reviews.

Yeah.

Yeah, and you can individually dive into any one
of those, just like I looked atthe 2016 study you mentioned
today, just to make sure youknow is she full of it or is she
like yeah, solid, and then thescore.
You know is she full of it oris she like, yeah, solid and
then the score.
I know you talk about Nutrascore.
Yeah, nutravor score.
Nutravor score not being like aranking or a judgment, it's
just a formula based on nutrientdensities.
So folks are aware of that.

(53:37):
It's a good way to understandif you're trying to put together
multiple nutrients.
It's just another reference ofyou know, density, not like this
is better than this.
So just to kind of me defendingyou from your stuff.
So my listeners understand thecontext.
All right, you mentioned someof those resources.
Where do you want to send folksto to learn more about you?

Homebase is Nutrivorcom.
That's definitely the placewith the most detailed maybe
academic articles.
That's where you can learnabout nutrients, foods and how
they impact our health.
But from there, make sure toclick on the join button in the
top right menu, because thatwill link you both to my free
weekly newsletter.

(54:14):
Bite-sized information, so verylike for the person who doesn't
think that reading a 12,000word article busting every myth
about vegetable oil sounds likea fun Saturday afternoon.
My feelings are not hurt ifthat's the case.
So Bite Size is information isthere.
But that's also where you canlink to my social media.
I'm on Instagram, facebookThreads, pinterest, tiktok and

(54:35):
YouTube, and I post differentcontent on each platform.
There's some overlap, obviously, but a lot of very specific to
this platform stuff as well.
So wherever you like to hangout online, come join me, and
that's where you can also learnabout the benefits of joining my
Patreon.

And what's your saltiest platform, like where
are you most?

Dr. Sarah Ballant (54:53):
controversial , so to speak.
Saltiest, I would say, I'msassiest on TikTok.

Okay, I don't even use that one.
But Okay, I don't even use thatone.

And I would say I'm most responsive on
threads, so I'm most like inthe comments answering questions
on threads.
So I would say those are thetwo places where, like, I really
like to hang out online.
That's where I spend timeengaging with other people's
content.
So I would say those areprobably.
If I had to pick two, I'd pickthose two.

Okay, and I had reposted something of yours too
on mine, so if people go there,they can get to you too.
So, all right, thank you somuch for coming on.
I do wish we had more time.
There's a joke about a flattire I got to deal with today.
But thank you so much for yourtime.

Sarah, oh, thank you.

Let's stay in touch you.

All Episodes

Eat More of THESE Mood-Boosting Foods for Everyday Happiness (Dr. Sarah Ballantyne) | Ep 241

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

United States of Kennedy

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Eat More of THESE Mood-Boosting Foods for Everyday Happiness (Dr. Sarah Ballantyne) | Ep 241