April 16, 2025 • 33 mins
Get the other part of this conversation on Jeff's podcast "The Mind Muscle Connection" to hear Philip discussing more aggressive approaches to body recomposition
--
Can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time, without gaining or losing weight, but instead by eating at maintenance calories to achieve the holy grail of body recomposition (aka "body recomp")?
Jeff Hoehn of The Mind Muscle Connection podcast and I break down what's possible and how to adjust your diet and training to create an environment for body recomp at maintenance. You'll learn the realities of this approach and who will benefit most from it.
This is one part of a special two-part collaboration. Don't miss the companion episode on Jeff's podcast where Philip covers slightly more aggressive approaches to body recomp.
Main Takeaways:
- Is body recomposition at maintenance actually possible, and for whom?
- The surprising truth about what happens to your weight during successful recomposition
- Why your training approach matters more than you might think
- The often-overlooked nutritional strategy that can make or break your results
- How tracking progress differs when you're not focused on weight loss or gain
- The hidden lifestyle factors that determine your recomp success
- Why the maintenance approach might be more sustainable than traditional methods
Timestamps:
0:01 - What is "body recomp" at maintenance?
3:03 - The science behind simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain
5:28 - Who body recomposition at maintenance works best for
10:17 - Maintenance vs. slight surplus for muscle building
14:09 - Common problems and pitfalls with the maintenance approach
20:20 - How to track progress when the scale isn't changing much
24:45 - The value of tracking weight as data
28:19 - The role of lifestyle factors in successful body recomposition
Listen to the other part of this conversation on Jeff's podcast "The Mind Muscle Connection" to hear Philip discussing more aggressive approaches to body recomposition
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Philip Pape (00:01):
If you are daunted by the thought of force-feeding
yourself to bulk for muscle, butfear gaining fat or
aggressively dieting to cut forfat loss, this episode will give
you a new perspective.
The question we're asking iscan you lose fat and build
muscle at the same time, withoutgaining or losing weight, but
instead by eating at ormaintenance calories to achieve
(00:23):
the holy grail of bodyrecomposition?
My guest and I will break downwhat's possible and how to
adjust your diet and training,and you'll learn about the
realities of body recomp atmaintenance and how to create an
environment to get the resultsyou want.
Welcome to Wits and Weights,the show that helps you build a
(00:59):
strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering and
efficiency.
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday I've got something
special lined up with my friend,jeff Hain, host of the Mind
Muscle Connection podcast.
Jeff and I decided to tacklebody recomposition, which is
your ability to build muscle andlose fat at the same time, but
from two different angles, onour two shows.
(01:22):
So today, on Wits and Weights,you're going to hear us focus on
the maintenance approach.
Can you transform your bodywithout drastically changing
your calorie intake?
And if you enjoy thisconversation, make sure and
follow Jeff's podcast Again, theMind Muscle Connection, where I
jump on as a guest to discussbody recomp, but using slight
surpluses and deficits ratherthan maintenance.
(01:43):
Now, if you guys don't know Jeff, he's been on the show a few
times.
We've collaborated for a longtime.
He's a great guy, a reallyhonorable authentic fitness
professional out there, and he'shelped lots of clients probably
hundreds, probably thousands atthis point transform their
bodies with evidence-basedmethods.
His knowledge in body recomphas made him kind of a go-to
expert for people looking to dothis.
(02:03):
So that's why I thought thiswould be valuable for you guys.
So I want you to listencarefully today to learn what
you can and cannot do atmaintenance to maximize your
results, regardless of yourexperience level.
All right, jeff, thank you forcoming on again and welcome to
the show.
Let's get into it.
Jeff Hoehn (02:18):
Yeah, man, I'm looking forward to chatting
about this and having both ofthese angles here.
Philip Pape (02:28):
I think it will be super uh interesting for the,
for the listener.
Yeah, we were joking, as weprepared for this, that, um,
maybe we're going to disappointpeople because everyone wants
the holy grail body recomp.
And you hear, like a lot ofmarketing around this like, yeah
, just build muscle, lose fat atthe same time.
Um, I even hear some of the bignames like, um, uh, holly
baxter, you know she's actuallygonna be on the show man, if, if
you can believe it, hollyBaxter is big into like let's
just stay near maintenance andyou can build a ton of muscle
(02:49):
and lose fat.
So what I want to address firstis, like, what does the science
say behind that?
In general, can you lose fatand build muscle at the same
time?
And then we can get into like,who and what situations can work
at maintenance or not work.
Jeff Hoehn (03:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So, like you said, you know,it's kind of a misconception,
right, that that you can't, youknow, do both at the same time.
And you, and you certainly can,Um, you know, and the research
does back this up.
I know there was a study fromBearcat a couple of years ago
and they looked at advanced, youknow, people that had been
training for a little while andthey were able to gain muscle
and lose body fat, right, youknow, there's kind of that
(03:24):
misconception that you need toif you want to build muscle, you
need to be in this like largesurplus to do that.
And again, we'll, I'm sure,throughout this we'll, we'll
dive into the specifics of wherethat might be, you know,
feasible at and where that makesthe most sense.
But you know, a lot, of a lotof people have I tell people
this a lot of people have a lotlarger of a runway to do this
than they, than they think.
Um, you know, I think a lot ofpeople just say, oh, you know,
(03:45):
I've been training for a coupleof years, I can't do it.
But, um, again, as I'm surewe'll get into, there's a lot of
things that go into it thatpeople are not maximizing, um,
where they're going to be ableto.
You know, see this, thissimultaneous fat loss and muscle
gain, Um, but again, it is thatkind of holy grail is going to
depend.
It's going to be in the rightsituation and I think our inputs
(04:06):
are going to be super importantas well in that process.
Philip Pape (04:10):
Yeah.
So I really want to get rightto the what you probably hear
and I hear as well People thathaven't gone through this before
, haven't cut, haven't bulked,maybe aren't even attracting
their nutrition and they're likeI don't want to gain a bunch of
weight because I'm going to getfat and I don't want to have to
diet because that soundsmiserable and I've tried it
before.
I really want to gain like 15,20 pounds of muscle and I want
to do it at maintenance, like isthat even possible?
(04:31):
And again, we can break downfrom there, like the situations
and scenarios behind it.
Jeff Hoehn (04:37):
Yeah, so I think so.
So let's, because I kind of,before we talked about this, we
kind of had an outline plannedout when we were talking about
you know, my approach was wewere going to talk about the
maintenance side of things andyou said, you know, lose fat and
build muscle.
I'm like I kind of said, hey, Ididn't want to ruin that
episode right away by justsaying, hey, being at
maintenance, the downside withbeing at maintenance is you're
probably not, probably you'renot going to really lose any
(04:58):
amount of body fat when you'retruly at your maintenance.
You know calories and again, wecan talk about what exactly
maintenance calories is, butthat's going to be the one
downside.
However, you the question youspecifically asked was hey, I
want to gain, you know, say, 15to 20 pounds of muscle.
Can I do that at maintenance?
And I believe you can totallydo that at maintenance calories
right now and saying that thisis where it gets a little
(05:20):
confusing.
But you know, if you're gainingtissue and again, via, via
muscle, you are going to youprobably see your body weight
trend up.
So it's going to get a littleconfusing in terms of, like you
may not actually keep your exactsame body weight, right.
So that's where things can geta little bit kind of confusing.
If you're just looking atnumbers and based off of of body
weight, Right.
(05:41):
But if we're talkingspecifically, hey, you're at
maintenance calories and youdon't want to gain a ton of body
fat, you can certainly do that,um, and again, I I'll go into
this.
But I guess the thing that youcould do, though and this is
where maybe some people getconfused is you know you could
theoretically lose by, like yourbody fat percentage could
decrease by kind of taking thisapproach, right, um, because,
again, you're increasing your,your lean body mass, um, and you
(06:03):
know, again, if your weight'snot really trending up a ton,
you know you may see your, yourbody fat percentage decrease a
bit here, uh, in this process.
So I don't know if I answeredyour specific question on that,
but you did and you, you hit thenuance on the head right there.
Philip Pape (06:17):
There are a couple different subtle scenarios near
maintenance, one of which youjust said is you can build
muscle, you may even gain weight, you're kind of at maintenance
or slightly above, but your bodyrecomp is changing without
losing fat necessarily.
But your, you know your bodyfat percentage goes down.
It's just numbers.
If you have more muscle as apercentage of your body, you
(06:38):
have lower body fat percentageand that is recomp.
So I think people need tounderstand that.
But you also said that youcan't like lose meaningful fat
in terms of just pounds of fat,unless you're in a deficit,
which is a whole differentsituation.
So when people understand thatif they have like 20 or 30
pounds to lose fat, is it themost efficient approach?
And this leads me to thequestion of who is it right for,
(06:59):
who can benefit, who shouldwaste the time at maintenance
let's call it when they shouldbe in a deficit, versus those
who would like really maximizethe results this way?
Jeff Hoehn (07:08):
Yeah.
So, like you said, I mean,you're not going to get, you
know, you're not going to havethis crazy amount of of body fat
loss here at this, right.
So to me, who would benefit themost from this?
Well, this is going to besomebody who maybe you're quote,
unquote skinny fat or you've,like, done a ton of diets in the
past and you've just alwaysfocused on like weight loss in
the past.
And you just always focused onlike weight loss in the past,
(07:29):
right, and?
And usually that approach isgoing to lead to somebody not
really ever focusing on likehypertrophy style training.
It was usually, you know, thethe kind of avatar I'm thinking
of as someone who, like, cutsout all their carbs, go super
low calorie, just does a ton ofcardio, right, and again, that's
probably not going to be greatfrom a muscle, lean body mass
standpoint.
So I think that person who'slike yo-yoed in the past and
always focused on just weightloss and like just being their
(07:51):
small self, that's somebody whoI think could benefit from being
around their maintenancecalories and really focusing on
on adding muscle in that process, right, you're not actively
trying to see your body weightgo down.
Maybe it comes up a little bit,but you're again like we said.
You're, you're decreasing yourbody fat percentage and, um,
again you're kind of getting ridof that.
That skinny fat, look right.
So that's one person that Ithink would benefit the most
(08:12):
from that.
And then another person thatwould benefit would be someone
who, again, muscle is.
You want to add a ton of muscle, but you're also not
necessarily as lean as you wantto be yet, right.
And so again, this kind ofcomes around to someone who's
again always kind of fat lossdieted, or maybe you just don't
want a fat loss diet right now,right.
(08:32):
And again, adding more muscleis super important to you.
To me, that's going to besomeone who is going to benefit
a ton from being at, you know,their maintenance calories and
trying to, um, just focus on, on, on that.
And again, you're not likesuper lean either, right, cause
the leaner you are, the tougherthis is going to be.
To build muscle at maintenance,you're going to have to, you
know, have a little bit of bodyfat on your body.
(08:52):
So I think, really long storyit's going to be most beneficial
for someone who's dieted a tonin the past.
You aren't super lean, but youaren't.
Uh, yeah, you're not super lean, but you also maybe aren't
necessarily like superoverweight either.
Because again, in thatsituation you probably would be
better off kind of going at theapproach, you know, more of a
fat loss kind of a styleapproach there.
Philip Pape (09:12):
uh, with that, yeah , it makes sense and again it
always comes out to.
It depends on what's yourtraining history, what's your
dieting history, what is yourgoal right now?
Cause I I'm sure you've metlots of guys who have a little
extra fat and they're not readyfor fat loss.
So what?
Here's an interesting thingI've seen come up lately, jeff,
and I wasn't really aware of itso much more than like a year
(09:35):
and a half ago.
But there are definitely a lotof influencers and some very
respected guys out there wholift a lot, who will say you
never really need to gain a lotof weight or be in a surplus.
You could always be.
You could always be in a littlebit of a maintenance plus mode,
you know, like just just ridingjust above maintenance and
feeding yourself every day,never falling into a deficit,
(09:55):
really, and you can gettremendous results, and then you
don't have to worry aboutgaining a bunch of fat.
But then we have, like Helms etal right, the, the, the study
that came out was it last yearthat showed we could actually go
more aggressively than wethought and not gain fat.
So what are, what is yourthoughts on maintenance being
kind of this Holy grail forbuilding muscle when it's like
just above maintenance.
(10:16):
You know what I mean.
Jeff Hoehn (10:17):
Yeah Well, again, I mean, the key is going to be
you're going to, you know you'regoing to limit, you know body
fat gain in that process.
But again, if you're like onthe leaner side and you already
have a good amount of muscle,again that's probably not going
to be the right approach for you.
You're probably going to needto be in a small surplus.
Um, and again, if you reallywant to build a ton of muscle,
right, like I think that that'sanother person that, like you're
(10:38):
going to probably need to be ina small surplus.
But most people don'tnecessarily want to be
bodybuilder style, you know, uh,muscle size, right.
So, like for them, to me itmakes a little bit more sense to
not have to be in this surplus,to then, you know, kind of have
to cut it all off later on,right, I just feel like people
do a lot of kind of yo-yoing, uh, with that uh approach, right.
(11:00):
And again, the big thing beinglike what we do in that process
is super important, likemaximizing our training, right,
that so it's geared towardshypertrophy, you know, setting
up your lifestyle so that you'rein a good spot to add muscle,
right.
And then you know, same thingwith nutrition, like making sure
those things are dialed in.
You know, the more we can getall those things dialed in, the
more likely you're going to beable to ensure that you're going
(11:21):
to build muscle without, youknow, gaining body fat and
really not needing as big of asurplus or needing one at all.
So again, I think it reallycomes down to our methods and
what we do.
That's going to be the biggestthing.
What I see happen a lot of timesis people will think that the
magic is gaining weight and likethat's where, that's where they
spend all their time is likejust trying to see their scale
weight go up.
Hey, I'm in a surplus, so I'mjust or I'm in a building phase,
(11:44):
I want to try to add muscle, soI just want to see my scale
weight go up and that, like isthis the main thing that they
focus on in that process?
And they kind of overlook theinputs which ultimately, are
going to really be the mostimportant thing to tell your
body to add, you know, lean bodymass in that process.
So hopefully that answers yourquestion there.
But that's like the big thingthat we're looking at there with
that is really your inputs aregoing to be the big thing, um,
(12:05):
and then again, the more muscleyou want to build and the leaner
you are and the more muscle youhave, we're going to have to
shift to, you know, being in asurplus.
And I always tell people thistoo at the end of the day, when
we look at the three energybalances that we can be in and
when it comes to muscle growth,the best is going to be a small
surplus at the end of the day,right?
If you want to absolutelymaximize muscle growth, you know
(12:25):
.
If you want to absolutelymaximize muscle growth, you know
a small surplus is going to bethe best in most situations.
Second, maintenance is going tobe right.
There Again, you can stillbuild a ton, a good amount of
muscle around your maintenancecalories.
And then three, a deficit.
Right, the larger the deficit,the less likely this is going to
be to happen.
No-transcript building muscle.
Philip Pape (12:56):
Yeah, and you pointed out that the training
variables absolutely at or nearthe top right.
Like we hear it over and overagain, people focusing too much
on, maybe, protein and they'renot even training hard Like that
.
That's my problem nowadays isI've talked to people who say,
look, I want to lose fat or Iwant to improve my body
composition, I'm not worriedabout the training part.
Tell me about the nutrition.
I'm like no, no, they gotogether and if anything, you
(13:18):
need to be training and then thefood will follow.
So we we've kind of put intobuckets the type of person or
the scenario you're in where youwould find success from body
recomp, near maintenance.
It sounds like definitely, ifyou're maybe leaner.
If you don't, um, or or no, ifyou're leaner, you need to build
potentially more aggressively.
But people have just a littlebit of fat to lose or not
(13:40):
worried about like massive fatloss.
Um, training is important.
Progressive overload, you know,protein, all that stuff.
What are the top one or two, Iguess, problems people have when
they do try to do that Like isit they accidentally fall into
diets all the time?
Or some lack of consistency,because maintenance you talked
about it on my show a long timeago.
(14:00):
It can be its own challengejust trying to stay in that
realm.
So what kind of tracking, whatkind of precision, what kind of
problems do people have withdoing this?
Yeah, so you're basicallysaying, like, what kind of
precision, what kind of problemsdo people have?
Jeff Hoehn (14:09):
with doing this.
Yeah, so you're basicallysaying like, hey, someone is
they want to try to maximizebuilding muscle here around
maintenance.
Like what are the big problemsthat people end up kind of
running themselves into to notmaximize this?
Philip Pape (14:19):
You got it, yep.
Jeff Hoehn (14:20):
Yeah, I mean, like you said, the big thing being
the not dialing in yournutrition in terms of, like you
said, under eating, potentiallymeal timing being a big one,
right, where you know peoplemaybe are skipping meals, maybe
they have some days wherethey're higher calorie because
they go out and eat, have youknow, they have events, or maybe
they just don't really careabout focusing on their
(14:42):
nutrition on that day, um, andthen they have.
Then they see their scale go upa little bit and now they you
know they're they're like, ohboy, I got to make up for that
now, and now I got to go lowcalorie, right, and so that is
the.
The trick here with beingaround maintenance is it does
give you a little bit lesswiggle room in terms of, like
you know you really want to tryhow often you're skipping meals
and like dipping into largedeficits, because that is going
(15:04):
to be something that can largedeficits in the short term,
because that is going to besomething that over time, is
going to impact your ability toadd muscle and, you know, not
overall body composition.
So I guess it would be havingunstructured nutrition days
where they're either too high ortoo low, and again one or two
here, and they're not going tomake or break, but the more
often those happen, that's goingto lead to suboptimal body
(15:25):
composition, uh, in the long run.
And then again, meal timing,like you said, skipping meals,
um, not having meals around yourtraining sessions, uh, you know
, that's one thing that I thinkpeople often overlook is the
importance of meal timing aroundtheir workouts.
Uh, especially in this, whenwe're trying to do what we're
doing here, where we want to addmuscle without really adding
(15:46):
much body fat, your training isgoing to be super important, and
so we want to make sure we setthat up in the best way possible
.
So, again, whether that bemaking sure that you you know
however you like to structureyour meals around your workouts,
but making sure you'rewell-fueled going into your
training so you have the besttraining possible, making sure
you're well hydrated going intoyour training, right.
Philip Pape (16:03):
Define that, jeff?
Define that for people, jeff,just so they know that maybe
keto is not the answer here, Idon't know.
Tell me.
Jeff Hoehn (16:08):
What do you mean?
What about hydration?
Philip Pape (16:11):
Fueling yourself before your workouts?
Jeff Hoehn (16:12):
Yeah, so, just again , making sure that you're not
going into your training likenot having eaten for three, five
plus hours.
Or again, making sure you doget some carbohydrate intake, uh
, around your workout, right, um, just again, making sure that
we're not just again not goingin to it to where you're hungry,
and then that's going to impactyour, your, your training
performance, um, there, rightCause, again, that's going to be
(16:34):
something that in the shortterm maybe you don't really
notice it, but over time youtake someone who times that, has
really good meal timing, aroundtheir workouts compared to
someone who is just lax aroundit.
Over a year, I guarantee youthe person who is on top of
their meal timing is going tosee much better progress from a
body composition standpointbecause they're going to set
themselves up from a to havegood training sessions, which
ultimately is the most importantthing to send that signal to
(16:56):
build muscle.
Um, and then also like notgetting protein around your
workouts either, right, whetherthat be?
Hey, maybe you like to go workout when you first wake up,
that's fine.
Um, so again, after that, makesure you get some protein in at
least around your sometimearound your workout.
Same thing there.
You put someone who nails thatversus someone who doesn't.
The person who nails theirprotein around, their workout,
to me, is going to have betterresults.
(17:16):
You know, when you expand out,uh, their hydration, again, even
a small amount of dehydrationwhich you can't even really
notice, can potentially impactperformance.
So, again, we want to make surewhat we're hydrated, uh, there,
right.
So from a nutrition perspective, those are the big things.
And then, obviously, like yousaid, you know training is super
important.
But if we're not on top of ourlike protein, and when I mean
(17:39):
protein, like overall intake andeven timing, to an extent I
think you're going to uhpotentially impact your, your,
your muscle gain, um, andtherefore your body composition
over the long run.
Philip Pape (17:50):
Yeah, and, by the way, you guys, if you're
listening, if you don't followJeff's show, follow it, because
he he constantly goes into thesedetails and like what to do
under different scenarios.
So we're not, we're not goingto like dive into how much
protein you need and all thatfun stuff today, even though we
both could do it for hours.
What I really want the listenerto understand is is this right
for me?
Two more things come to mind inthat context.
(18:12):
One is how do you track this ina way that still motivates you?
Because I could see you,especially if you have a new
client.
Do you ever get a new clientthat comes to you and it's like
you know, I want a better bodyand I want to just like be a
maintenance.
I mean, that to me doesn'tsound sexy or like something
anybody would ever say, um, solike, is this a?
Is this the best protocol forsomeone who's just doing it for
(18:33):
the first time?
Because I could see a lack ofmotivation from a feeling like a
lack of direction.
How do you address that?
Jeff Hoehn (18:38):
Yeah.
So you know, again, I think itis important to see where, where
the client is at and what theywant to do when they when they
come in.
Right, because, again, ifsomebody is super like, again,
knowing what the client wants Ithink is super important, right.
So, again, like this ifsomebody is like, hey,
ultimately I want to lose bodyfat, and we look at their
history and they and theyhaven't dieted recently, okay,
(18:59):
well, hey, maybe we are going topush you into a small like a
deficit is going to be somethingthat's probably going to be
better for you now.
But let's say, somebody wantsto add muscle and like this is
what they want to do that.
And we look at their bodycomposition.
I'm like, hey, we could sithere and we can put you into a
surplus and have you gain weight, but do I think that's going to
be the best for your long termbody composition?
Because I think if we justfocus on scale weight, that's
where you're going to kind ofget yourself caught up and think
(19:20):
that you're just kind of notmaking progress.
So it's looking at otheraspects, right, and what I mean
by that is, yes, you know,progress, pictures, measurements
, but again, even those probablyaren't going to be like this
drastic change, you know, in atwo, three month span, just by
(19:44):
what we're doing here with thisapproach, right, so it's more so
like hey, you know, trainingperformance, like tracking that,
seeing that improve, like kindof you know, connecting the dots
there with the trainingperformance.
Also how they feel as well, too, right, like that's something
that I'm consistently liketrying to check in with clients
on of like, how do you feel?
Like, if you're feeling better,you're feeling strong, you just
feel more flexibility, you havemore energy from day to day, uh
(20:06):
, whatever that is for theperson, better libido, whatever
it is like those are things thatwe're really going to hone in
on, because I feel, like, atmaintenance, you can really dial
those things in.
Um, so, really kind ofconnecting the dots there, uh,
to show them improvement fromthat perspective, I think is is,
uh, it's huge.
And then again, if you takeblood, like if you get your
blood work checked, you know,looking at that, um, you know,
those are the things that Ialways try to connect to, like
(20:27):
looking at those things versusjust scale weight and then
explaining to them hey, if wecan nail this down to where you
know, we can get your habits inplace here.
Um, get your lifestyle habits inplace.
Um, you're getting stronger,you're adding some muscle.
Like this is going to set youup for more effective and
efficient fat loss.
When we, when we get there, um,or maybe you don't even need to
(20:47):
do that, maybe you decide likeyou love this and you feel soup,
like your, your bodycomposition continues to improve
and then maybe you feel likeyou don't ever really need to
fat loss diet.
Or maybe you do this and thennow it's like it makes fat loss
um something that you just dofor a very short amount of time
throughout the year, just tokind of clean things up a little
bit, versus like being in thisendless yo-yoing where, like
every time you get into fitness,you only focus on dropping
(21:10):
weight, don't really build anyhabits, and then you and then
it's just this kind of viciouscycle on there.
So connecting the dots therewith that, I think, is super
important too.
Philip Pape (21:17):
For sure, and you, you talked about kind of this
magic of maintenance when youwere on the show before that.
It can be used as a tool in inbefore you ever diet, you know
just to dial things in afteryou've gone through fat loss to
sustain.
Now we're talking about usingit strategically to potentially
improve your body recomplong-term as a mode to be in.
It's hard for me to understand,Jeff, because I just so love
(21:38):
change and like constantlyseeing things happen and but
some people are totally coolwith it.
Some people are like I don'twant the, maybe the fatigue of
constantly trying to add more orreduce more.
So when we do talk aboutstaying in maintenance and not
looking at the scale, therestill is a scale component in
that maintenance, by definition,is staying right here in this
(21:58):
like narrow range.
How do people do that in termsof using the scale, or do they?
Are there situations where theydon't even need to?
Because if, if you weighyourself today and then six
months from now you're roughlythe same, hey, you're kind of at
maintenance, right, I don'tknow what are your thoughts on
that.
Jeff Hoehn (22:14):
I personally, like I try to get everyone to use the
scale just as a as a tool, andlike try to educate them around
it, right?
So, like, cause I do get somepeople are like, oh, you know, I
just stopped using the scaleCause it gets in my head.
It's like, well, I want to workon that because we need to like
figure that out.
This is just data at the end ofthe day, right, so I like to
make sure somebody takes, youknow, their, their scale weight
there, cause I just think that,again, it's a great way to kind
(22:36):
of learn what's actually goingon, because, at the end of the
day, we do need to take that,because that's going to tell us
the energy balance that we arein, uh in, in that process,
right, so I think it's superimportant as far as, like, what,
what I'm looking for on thescale.
Again, this is, as I've said,with everything so far, it's
going to be very contextdependent on the person, but you
know what I mean by that is, ifyou just got done with the fat
(22:58):
loss phase and now we transitionyou to your maintenance
calories, you're going to seethis kind of weird stabilization
of your scale weight.
So that's just all kind ofnoise, in my opinion, right.
So there's that.
But from there, biggest thingI'm looking for is just not
seeing any trends in a shortamount of time, to me as
maintenance, right.
And so what I mean by that isif we're consistently seeing,
(23:20):
when we look at your averageweight for the week and we see
it trending either up or down,that you're in either a surplus
or a small deficit, and thenfrom there it's like, well, you
know, if we're finding that, hey, you're feeling good, your body
composition is really changing,maybe we can kind of continue
on that trend, no-transcriptplus or minus, and then again,
(23:55):
over time, maybe it is driftingin.
So just for example, um, my, mylast fat loss phase ended in uh
20, the end of 2023 ish, likeOctober ish timeframe.
I was one 55, spent the nextcouple of months purposely
gaining a little bit of weight,you know, letting things kind of
stabilize a little bit, uh, andthen from there I gained up to
(24:15):
about one 62 and then reallyover the last like 60 ish weeks.
You know it's been between one63 and one 66 and it's kind of
slowly trended up that way.
Now somebody could be like youknow it's been between 163 and
166 and it's kind of slowlytrended up that way.
Now somebody could be like,well, dude, you're in a small
surplus, but really it, to meit's.
It's maintained, really overtime, right, so we're talking
maintenance is not going to bethis exact number of like oh hey
, you're 166.6.
(24:35):
Now, you're going to stay thereevery single time you go in.
Right, you may see it trend oneway or the other, just a little
bit, but it's those short-termtrends that we just don't want
to see there.
Philip Pape (24:45):
This is a very important point, Jeff, I think
for people, because if you'rethinking of maintenance as
literally an exact number allthe time, you could be setting
yourself up for failure becauseyou could be dipping into
deficits.
And I don't know about you.
When I think body recomp, Irarely think of it as a very
tiny deficit, Like.
To me that's kind ofinefficient, right, Because your
(25:06):
body will adapt and keep you atmaintenance, but then now
you're not eating as much as youcould, so you're just never
quite fully recovered and you'renot really losing fat either.
So is what you're saying ismaybe the best, maybe one of the
best or efficient approach isto kind of be a little bit on
top, like almost have thatupward drift, because three to
six pounds in a year or two, itreally is nothing.
(25:26):
And and and frankly, if you'regoing to build muscle and that's
a denser tissue, like you saidearlier, you're probably going
to want to have a little extraweight anyway.
Is that?
Is that where the thinking is?
Jeff Hoehn (25:35):
Yeah, pretty much too Right, Like artificially low
maintenance, like thisartificially low maintenance
calories, where their theirbody's adapted to that and now
you know, they don't feel asgood, right, their body's just
(25:56):
not thriving at that point.
So what I suggest is at thatpoint, hey, you're going to
increase your calories a littlebit and you may see your weight
again kind of stabilize a littlebit, but you're feeling good.
And then you know, again, we'renot necessarily trying to push
weight up, but if it turns up alittle bit over say a three, six
, 12 month span, as long asyou're feeling good, body
composition still looks good.
(26:16):
You know, based on all thethings that we're tracking,
performance is good.
I'm not, I'm not concernedabout your weight, not like
coming up, you know, a couple ofpounds, right?
So again somebody could argueof like, oh, hey, that's not
maintenance, then that's a,that's still technically.
You're not trying to push scaleweight up every single time you
weigh in or over multiple weeks, right?
(26:36):
For?
Philip Pape (26:37):
sure, especially when the goal is body recomp.
The goal isn't to be atmaintenance, that's just a route
to get there right.
Jeff Hoehn (26:44):
Really, at the end of the day, what we're trying to
do here is we're just trying tofuel your body enough, okay, to
make sure that you're giving itthe micronutrients it needs.
Um, you know, when we're atmaintenance, everything just
flows much better, right?
When you're giving your bodyenough fuel, uh in in in that
process, right?
So, again, libido is going tobe in the best uh position.
Um, there, uh, again, you'regoing to feel your best here, uh
(27:06):
, in this right, bio, your, youruh blood work and everything
should be in a good spot.
As long as, again, as long aswe are continuing to do all
these things outside of, like,like the sleep stress, solid
nutrition, um, training, right.
I always tell people, justbecause your scale weights, if
your scale weight isn't trendingdown and you want it to, but
you're doing all those things,you're going to see a different
(27:28):
body composition over time, um,by by doing those things, right.
So I always try to frame it asthat.
And again, our body needs this,this period of time, to be
around these, these calories,and my whole thing on this is if
somebody, let's say somebody,they they do this fat loss, they
do muscle gain, but they stillhave some body fat they need to
lose.
This is the perfect positionfor you to be for, say, six,
(27:49):
nine months out of the year,because you're putting your body
in the best position to to feelgood where it's at, you're
continuing to build your habits.
Um, and you know, that beatssomebody who still has body fat
to lose and they're.
They're losing body fat, butthen they try and go into a
large surplus and gain weight.
Um, over time, right, but again, not to confuse people, it's
okay If you see your weight comeup a little bit during that
period of time.
(28:10):
The key is to just not try topush it continuously going up,
right, that's where people gainbody fat and that's where I
think people get themselvesstuck long-term in that process.
Philip Pape (28:19):
For sure, yeah, unless you're doing it on
purpose, right, like I justgained 15, 17 pounds and it's
like, and I got to pay for it byfat loss, dieting the other way
.
But so just very specific tipfor folks then, if they're
working with a coach who givesthem a target, or they're using
a tracking app and they have atarget, that where they think
their maintenance calories areat this point, um, do you
recommend slightly overshootingon a daily basis?
(28:39):
Is there a, like, a mentalstrategy you recommend to make
sure you're in the right spot?
Jeff Hoehn (28:44):
Yeah, this again, I hate to say this, but it's going
to depend on the client, right,like again, if they are super,
like, if they're a little bit onthe leaner side, they really
want to maximize muscle growth,I'm going to say, hey, it's okay
If you go a little bit over,right?
If someone is maybe a little bitmore, um, uh, I don't know the
word I'm kind of looking forhere they, they, they really
(29:06):
want to be careful with gainingbody fat mentally.
You know I can just tell, right, but we're going to pair that
with their biofeedback andeverything like that, and I want
to, I want to see how they'refeeling there and then obviously
again continuing to monitortheir, uh, their body
composition, because that'sgoing to, to me, that's going to
be the the biggest indicator,because I think where you want
to be careful with is people arevery good at under reporting
(29:28):
their, their caloric intake,right.
So this is where it comes intolike, okay, in theory, in theory
, in a perfect world, maybe wedo kind of have them push
slightly above what their quote,unquote, maintenance calories
are, whatever, whatever that isfor that person.
But in practice, this is where,like you kind of, I like to
rely on like, okay, here's whatI've seen.
I know that people tend tounderestimate their caloric
intake.
Let's, maybe you can be alittle bit lower than that,
(29:51):
right.
Philip Pape (29:52):
No, no, I agree.
Like different yeah, Differentpeople have different mental
framing around targets and, andyou know, like some people want
to hit the target right on Causethey're kind of robotic about
it, like you know, I lovehitting my targets Others always
have to be in one direction orelse they feel like they fail
every day.
Not that we want to have themin that mental state, but it
depends.
Like you said, it depends.
So, um, we, we covered a lot ofthe go ahead.
Jeff Hoehn (30:15):
Well, I was just gonna say, hopefully that gives
somebody an idea of like, hey,where you know you're kind of at
, that gives you a better ideaof where you should, should kind
of focus on.
And then again, looking at yourtrends, where's that trending
at over time, if you're slightlyseeing your body weight trend
down, someone who pushes it alittle bit higher, um as well to
there.
Philip Pape (30:32):
So this is why I like to talk to guys like you,
jeff, because we all haveslightly nuanced takes on this.
Like I would probably fall inthe trap on my podcast of saying
just always go over a littlebit if you're trying to be a
maintenance, cause I've seen toomany people diet under.
But then I recall the clientswho need to be careful because
they're they're trying to avoidgaining too much.
So again, whatever resonateswith you, you got to go with
(30:55):
that.
Is there any last tip orpitfall that we didn't cover
related to body recomp atmaintenance you want listeners
to know about.
Jeff Hoehn (31:02):
Yep.
So, again, like I said, I justthink people tend to overly
focus on, hey, surplus, gainingweight, losing weight, when we
need to focus on the trainingstimulus that we're sending,
because that, ultimately, isgoing to be the most important.
People overlooked that justbecause you're training doesn't
necessarily mean you're doingthat in the most efficient way.
There again, nutritionobviously not only calories and
macros, but like quality of foodthat you're bringing in, making
(31:25):
sure you get enough protein.
And then the couple that I seepeople commonly overlook are
going to be their lifestyle.
They're again setting up theirenvironment right, whether that,
again, that's yourrelationships, that's your
environment in terms of yourwork, what you, you know, what
you're around all the time.
Sleep is a huge one as well, too, and not only, hey, just get
eight hours of sleep, but sleepquality, like making sure we're
setting ourselves up for goodsleep, and you can kind of put
(31:47):
in your circadian health andcircadian rhythm into that.
And then and then stressmanagement, right, and stress
management being not only, oh,hey, I had a stressful day at
work, but again thinking aboutall the stress that we're
putting on our body, uh, andthinking about it from that
standpoint and balancing thatout to where.
Hey, you know we want to have agood balance of parasympathetic
, sympathetic inputs and makingsure we're balancing that out
and we're not letting it get toofar on, say, the sympathetic
(32:09):
side of things, right?
So, again, that's going to lookdifferent for everybody what
that is, but figuring out whatyou're doing to your body,
that's adding stress, and tryingto bring that down, those are
going to be things I thinkpeople often overlook and can
make the world of a differenceand really allow you to get more
out of every calorie that youput into your body.
Um, it's probably the best wayI could.
I could put that.
Philip Pape (32:28):
Yeah, it's a great way to put it because smart,
efficient, you know doing it theright way.
Otherwise you're kind ofwasting time, um, and you've got
some really good content onthis.
I know you do these workshopsoccasionally, these free
workshops on body recomp, thatkind of go through the big
pillars.
So if you guys are interestedin learning more, definitely
reach out to jeff.
And if you enjoyed thisconversation where we talked
about body recomp at maintenance, um, as I mentioned earlier, we
(32:51):
recorded a companion episoderight now in Jeff's feed the
mind muscle connection.
Go follow the show, download it, listen to it.
That's why we're keeping thesea little bit shorter.
Today, where I interviewed Jeffabout, or no, where he
interviews me, I get confusedabout using, um, what we're
calling a near maintenanceapproach.
So that's more.
When you want to step the gas,step on the gas pedal, go maybe
(33:13):
a little more aggressive, butstill get body recomp, as
opposed to necessarily going allout in one direction, and we're
going to get deep into thatthere.
So click the link in the shownotes or go search the mind
muscle connection on yourfavorite podcast app.
Check it out.
And Jeff, thanks, as always,man, for collaborating and
coming on the show.
Jeff Hoehn (33:30):
Yep, this is super fun dude.
If you are daunted by the thought of force-feeding
yourself to bulk for muscle, butfear gaining fat or
aggressively dieting to cut forfat loss, this episode will give
you a new perspective.
The question we're asking iscan you lose fat and build
muscle at the same time, withoutgaining or losing weight, but
instead by eating at ormaintenance calories to achieve
(00:23):
the holy grail of bodyrecomposition?
My guest and I will break downwhat's possible and how to
adjust your diet and training,and you'll learn about the
realities of body recomp atmaintenance and how to create an
environment to get the resultsyou want.
Welcome to Wits and Weights,the show that helps you build a
(00:59):
strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering and
efficiency.
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday I've got something
special lined up with my friend,jeff Hain, host of the Mind
Muscle Connection podcast.
Jeff and I decided to tacklebody recomposition, which is
your ability to build muscle andlose fat at the same time, but
from two different angles, onour two shows.
(01:22):
So today, on Wits and Weights,you're going to hear us focus on
the maintenance approach.
Can you transform your bodywithout drastically changing
your calorie intake?
And if you enjoy thisconversation, make sure and
follow Jeff's podcast Again, theMind Muscle Connection, where I
jump on as a guest to discussbody recomp, but using slight
surpluses and deficits ratherthan maintenance.
(01:43):
Now, if you guys don't know Jeff, he's been on the show a few
times.
We've collaborated for a longtime.
He's a great guy, a reallyhonorable authentic fitness
professional out there, and he'shelped lots of clients probably
hundreds, probably thousands atthis point transform their
bodies with evidence-basedmethods.
His knowledge in body recomphas made him kind of a go-to
expert for people looking to dothis.
(02:03):
So that's why I thought thiswould be valuable for you guys.
So I want you to listencarefully today to learn what
you can and cannot do atmaintenance to maximize your
results, regardless of yourexperience level.
All right, jeff, thank you forcoming on again and welcome to
the show.
Let's get into it.
Jeff Hoehn (02:18):
Yeah, man, I'm looking forward to chatting
about this and having both ofthese angles here.
Philip Pape (02:28):
I think it will be super uh interesting for the,
for the listener.
Yeah, we were joking, as weprepared for this, that, um,
maybe we're going to disappointpeople because everyone wants
the holy grail body recomp.
And you hear, like a lot ofmarketing around this like, yeah
, just build muscle, lose fat atthe same time.
Um, I even hear some of the bignames like, um, uh, holly
baxter, you know she's actuallygonna be on the show man, if, if
you can believe it, hollyBaxter is big into like let's
just stay near maintenance andyou can build a ton of muscle
(02:49):
and lose fat.
So what I want to address firstis, like, what does the science
say behind that?
In general, can you lose fatand build muscle at the same
time?
And then we can get into like,who and what situations can work
at maintenance or not work.
Jeff Hoehn (03:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So, like you said, you know,it's kind of a misconception,
right, that that you can't, youknow, do both at the same time.
And you, and you certainly can,Um, you know, and the research
does back this up.
I know there was a study fromBearcat a couple of years ago
and they looked at advanced, youknow, people that had been
training for a little while andthey were able to gain muscle
and lose body fat, right, youknow, there's kind of that
(03:24):
misconception that you need toif you want to build muscle, you
need to be in this like largesurplus to do that.
And again, we'll, I'm sure,throughout this we'll, we'll
dive into the specifics of wherethat might be, you know,
feasible at and where that makesthe most sense.
But you know, a lot, of a lotof people have I tell people
this a lot of people have a lotlarger of a runway to do this
than they, than they think.
Um, you know, I think a lot ofpeople just say, oh, you know,
(03:45):
I've been training for a coupleof years, I can't do it.
But, um, again, as I'm surewe'll get into, there's a lot of
things that go into it thatpeople are not maximizing, um,
where they're going to be ableto.
You know, see this, thissimultaneous fat loss and muscle
gain, Um, but again, it is thatkind of holy grail is going to
depend.
It's going to be in the rightsituation and I think our inputs
(04:06):
are going to be super importantas well in that process.
Philip Pape (04:10):
Yeah.
So I really want to get rightto the what you probably hear
and I hear as well People thathaven't gone through this before
, haven't cut, haven't bulked,maybe aren't even attracting
their nutrition and they're likeI don't want to gain a bunch of
weight because I'm going to getfat and I don't want to have to
diet because that soundsmiserable and I've tried it
before.
I really want to gain like 15,20 pounds of muscle and I want
to do it at maintenance, like isthat even possible?
(04:31):
And again, we can break downfrom there, like the situations
and scenarios behind it.
Jeff Hoehn (04:37):
Yeah, so I think so.
So let's, because I kind of,before we talked about this, we
kind of had an outline plannedout when we were talking about
you know, my approach was wewere going to talk about the
maintenance side of things andyou said, you know, lose fat and
build muscle.
I'm like I kind of said, hey, Ididn't want to ruin that
episode right away by justsaying, hey, being at
maintenance, the downside withbeing at maintenance is you're
probably not, probably you'renot going to really lose any
(04:58):
amount of body fat when you'retruly at your maintenance.
You know calories and again, wecan talk about what exactly
maintenance calories is, butthat's going to be the one
downside.
However, you the question youspecifically asked was hey, I
want to gain, you know, say, 15to 20 pounds of muscle.
Can I do that at maintenance?
And I believe you can totallydo that at maintenance calories
right now and saying that thisis where it gets a little
(05:20):
confusing.
But you know, if you're gainingtissue and again, via, via
muscle, you are going to youprobably see your body weight
trend up.
So it's going to get a littleconfusing in terms of, like you
may not actually keep your exactsame body weight, right.
So that's where things can geta little bit kind of confusing.
If you're just looking atnumbers and based off of of body
weight, Right.
(05:41):
But if we're talkingspecifically, hey, you're at
maintenance calories and youdon't want to gain a ton of body
fat, you can certainly do that,um, and again, I I'll go into
this.
But I guess the thing that youcould do, though and this is
where maybe some people getconfused is you know you could
theoretically lose by, like yourbody fat percentage could
decrease by kind of taking thisapproach, right, um, because,
again, you're increasing your,your lean body mass, um, and you
(06:03):
know, again, if your weight'snot really trending up a ton,
you know you may see your, yourbody fat percentage decrease a
bit here, uh, in this process.
So I don't know if I answeredyour specific question on that,
but you did and you, you hit thenuance on the head right there.
Philip Pape (06:17):
There are a couple different subtle scenarios near
maintenance, one of which youjust said is you can build
muscle, you may even gain weight, you're kind of at maintenance
or slightly above, but your bodyrecomp is changing without
losing fat necessarily.
But your, you know your bodyfat percentage goes down.
It's just numbers.
If you have more muscle as apercentage of your body, you
(06:38):
have lower body fat percentageand that is recomp.
So I think people need tounderstand that.
But you also said that youcan't like lose meaningful fat
in terms of just pounds of fat,unless you're in a deficit,
which is a whole differentsituation.
So when people understand thatif they have like 20 or 30
pounds to lose fat, is it themost efficient approach?
And this leads me to thequestion of who is it right for,
(06:59):
who can benefit, who shouldwaste the time at maintenance
let's call it when they shouldbe in a deficit, versus those
who would like really maximizethe results this way?
Jeff Hoehn (07:08):
Yeah.
So, like you said, I mean,you're not going to get, you
know, you're not going to havethis crazy amount of of body fat
loss here at this, right.
So to me, who would benefit themost from this?
Well, this is going to besomebody who maybe you're quote,
unquote skinny fat or you've,like, done a ton of diets in the
past and you've just alwaysfocused on like weight loss in
the past.
And you just always focused onlike weight loss in the past,
(07:29):
right, and?
And usually that approach isgoing to lead to somebody not
really ever focusing on likehypertrophy style training.
It was usually, you know, thethe kind of avatar I'm thinking
of as someone who, like, cutsout all their carbs, go super
low calorie, just does a ton ofcardio, right, and again, that's
probably not going to be greatfrom a muscle, lean body mass
standpoint.
So I think that person who'slike yo-yoed in the past and
always focused on just weightloss and like just being their
(07:51):
small self, that's somebody whoI think could benefit from being
around their maintenancecalories and really focusing on
on adding muscle in that process, right, you're not actively
trying to see your body weightgo down.
Maybe it comes up a little bit,but you're again like we said.
You're, you're decreasing yourbody fat percentage and, um,
again you're kind of getting ridof that.
That skinny fat, look right.
So that's one person that Ithink would benefit the most
(08:12):
from that.
And then another person thatwould benefit would be someone
who, again, muscle is.
You want to add a ton of muscle, but you're also not
necessarily as lean as you wantto be yet, right.
And so again, this kind ofcomes around to someone who's
again always kind of fat lossdieted, or maybe you just don't
want a fat loss diet right now,right.
(08:32):
And again, adding more muscleis super important to you.
To me, that's going to besomeone who is going to benefit
a ton from being at, you know,their maintenance calories and
trying to, um, just focus on, on, on that.
And again, you're not likesuper lean either, right, cause
the leaner you are, the tougherthis is going to be.
To build muscle at maintenance,you're going to have to, you
know, have a little bit of bodyfat on your body.
(08:52):
So I think, really long storyit's going to be most beneficial
for someone who's dieted a tonin the past.
You aren't super lean, but youaren't.
Uh, yeah, you're not super lean, but you also maybe aren't
necessarily like superoverweight either.
Because again, in thatsituation you probably would be
better off kind of going at theapproach, you know, more of a
fat loss kind of a styleapproach there.
Philip Pape (09:12):
uh, with that, yeah , it makes sense and again it
always comes out to.
It depends on what's yourtraining history, what's your
dieting history, what is yourgoal right now?
Cause I I'm sure you've metlots of guys who have a little
extra fat and they're not readyfor fat loss.
So what?
Here's an interesting thingI've seen come up lately, jeff,
and I wasn't really aware of itso much more than like a year
(09:35):
and a half ago.
But there are definitely a lotof influencers and some very
respected guys out there wholift a lot, who will say you
never really need to gain a lotof weight or be in a surplus.
You could always be.
You could always be in a littlebit of a maintenance plus mode,
you know, like just just ridingjust above maintenance and
feeding yourself every day,never falling into a deficit,
(09:55):
really, and you can gettremendous results, and then you
don't have to worry aboutgaining a bunch of fat.
But then we have, like Helms etal right, the, the, the study
that came out was it last yearthat showed we could actually go
more aggressively than wethought and not gain fat.
So what are, what is yourthoughts on maintenance being
kind of this Holy grail forbuilding muscle when it's like
just above maintenance.
(10:16):
You know what I mean.
Jeff Hoehn (10:17):
Yeah Well, again, I mean, the key is going to be
you're going to, you know you'regoing to limit, you know body
fat gain in that process.
But again, if you're like onthe leaner side and you already
have a good amount of muscle,again that's probably not going
to be the right approach for you.
You're probably going to needto be in a small surplus.
Um, and again, if you reallywant to build a ton of muscle,
right, like I think that that'sanother person that, like you're
(10:38):
going to probably need to be ina small surplus.
But most people don'tnecessarily want to be
bodybuilder style, you know, uh,muscle size, right.
So, like for them, to me itmakes a little bit more sense to
not have to be in this surplus,to then, you know, kind of have
to cut it all off later on,right, I just feel like people
do a lot of kind of yo-yoing, uh, with that uh approach, right.
(11:00):
And again, the big thing beinglike what we do in that process
is super important, likemaximizing our training, right,
that so it's geared towardshypertrophy, you know, setting
up your lifestyle so that you'rein a good spot to add muscle,
right.
And then you know, same thingwith nutrition, like making sure
those things are dialed in.
You know, the more we can getall those things dialed in, the
more likely you're going to beable to ensure that you're going
(11:21):
to build muscle without, youknow, gaining body fat and
really not needing as big of asurplus or needing one at all.
So again, I think it reallycomes down to our methods and
what we do.
That's going to be the biggestthing.
What I see happen a lot of timesis people will think that the
magic is gaining weight and likethat's where, that's where they
spend all their time is likejust trying to see their scale
weight go up.
Hey, I'm in a surplus, so I'mjust or I'm in a building phase,
(11:44):
I want to try to add muscle, soI just want to see my scale
weight go up and that, like isthis the main thing that they
focus on in that process?
And they kind of overlook theinputs which ultimately, are
going to really be the mostimportant thing to tell your
body to add, you know, lean bodymass in that process.
So hopefully that answers yourquestion there.
But that's like the big thingthat we're looking at there with
that is really your inputs aregoing to be the big thing, um,
(12:05):
and then again, the more muscleyou want to build and the leaner
you are and the more muscle youhave, we're going to have to
shift to, you know, being in asurplus.
And I always tell people thistoo at the end of the day, when
we look at the three energybalances that we can be in and
when it comes to muscle growth,the best is going to be a small
surplus at the end of the day,right?
If you want to absolutelymaximize muscle growth, you know
(12:25):
.
If you want to absolutelymaximize muscle growth, you know
a small surplus is going to bethe best in most situations.
Second, maintenance is going tobe right.
There Again, you can stillbuild a ton, a good amount of
muscle around your maintenancecalories.
And then three, a deficit.
Right, the larger the deficit,the less likely this is going to
be to happen.
No-transcript building muscle.
Philip Pape (12:56):
Yeah, and you pointed out that the training
variables absolutely at or nearthe top right.
Like we hear it over and overagain, people focusing too much
on, maybe, protein and they'renot even training hard Like that
.
That's my problem nowadays isI've talked to people who say,
look, I want to lose fat or Iwant to improve my body
composition, I'm not worriedabout the training part.
Tell me about the nutrition.
I'm like no, no, they gotogether and if anything, you
(13:18):
need to be training and then thefood will follow.
So we we've kind of put intobuckets the type of person or
the scenario you're in where youwould find success from body
recomp, near maintenance.
It sounds like definitely, ifyou're maybe leaner.
If you don't, um, or or no, ifyou're leaner, you need to build
potentially more aggressively.
But people have just a littlebit of fat to lose or not
(13:40):
worried about like massive fatloss.
Um, training is important.
Progressive overload, you know,protein, all that stuff.
What are the top one or two, Iguess, problems people have when
they do try to do that Like isit they accidentally fall into
diets all the time?
Or some lack of consistency,because maintenance you talked
about it on my show a long timeago.
(14:00):
It can be its own challengejust trying to stay in that
realm.
So what kind of tracking, whatkind of precision, what kind of
problems do people have withdoing this?
Yeah, so you're basicallysaying, like, what kind of
precision, what kind of problemsdo people have?
Jeff Hoehn (14:09):
with doing this.
Yeah, so you're basicallysaying like, hey, someone is
they want to try to maximizebuilding muscle here around
maintenance.
Like what are the big problemsthat people end up kind of
running themselves into to notmaximize this?
Philip Pape (14:19):
You got it, yep.
Jeff Hoehn (14:20):
Yeah, I mean, like you said, the big thing being
the not dialing in yournutrition in terms of, like you
said, under eating, potentiallymeal timing being a big one,
right, where you know peoplemaybe are skipping meals, maybe
they have some days wherethey're higher calorie because
they go out and eat, have youknow, they have events, or maybe
they just don't really careabout focusing on their
(14:42):
nutrition on that day, um, andthen they have.
Then they see their scale go upa little bit and now they you
know they're they're like, ohboy, I got to make up for that
now, and now I got to go lowcalorie, right, and so that is
the.
The trick here with beingaround maintenance is it does
give you a little bit lesswiggle room in terms of, like
you know you really want to tryhow often you're skipping meals
and like dipping into largedeficits, because that is going
(15:04):
to be something that can largedeficits in the short term,
because that is going to besomething that over time, is
going to impact your ability toadd muscle and, you know, not
overall body composition.
So I guess it would be havingunstructured nutrition days
where they're either too high ortoo low, and again one or two
here, and they're not going tomake or break, but the more
often those happen, that's goingto lead to suboptimal body
(15:25):
composition, uh, in the long run.
And then again, meal timing,like you said, skipping meals,
um, not having meals around yourtraining sessions, uh, you know
, that's one thing that I thinkpeople often overlook is the
importance of meal timing aroundtheir workouts.
Uh, especially in this, whenwe're trying to do what we're
doing here, where we want to addmuscle without really adding
(15:46):
much body fat, your training isgoing to be super important, and
so we want to make sure we setthat up in the best way possible
.
So, again, whether that bemaking sure that you you know
however you like to structureyour meals around your workouts,
but making sure you'rewell-fueled going into your
training so you have the besttraining possible, making sure
you're well hydrated going intoyour training, right.
Philip Pape (16:03):
Define that, jeff?
Define that for people, jeff,just so they know that maybe
keto is not the answer here, Idon't know.
Tell me.
Jeff Hoehn (16:08):
What do you mean?
What about hydration?
Philip Pape (16:11):
Fueling yourself before your workouts?
Jeff Hoehn (16:12):
Yeah, so, just again , making sure that you're not
going into your training likenot having eaten for three, five
plus hours.
Or again, making sure you doget some carbohydrate intake, uh
, around your workout, right, um, just again, making sure that
we're not just again not goingin to it to where you're hungry,
and then that's going to impactyour, your, your training
performance, um, there, rightCause, again, that's going to be
(16:34):
something that in the shortterm maybe you don't really
notice it, but over time youtake someone who times that, has
really good meal timing, aroundtheir workouts compared to
someone who is just lax aroundit.
Over a year, I guarantee youthe person who is on top of
their meal timing is going tosee much better progress from a
body composition standpointbecause they're going to set
themselves up from a to havegood training sessions, which
ultimately is the most importantthing to send that signal to
(16:56):
build muscle.
Um, and then also like notgetting protein around your
workouts either, right, whetherthat be?
Hey, maybe you like to go workout when you first wake up,
that's fine.
Um, so again, after that, makesure you get some protein in at
least around your sometimearound your workout.
Same thing there.
You put someone who nails thatversus someone who doesn't.
The person who nails theirprotein around, their workout,
to me, is going to have betterresults.
(17:16):
You know, when you expand out,uh, their hydration, again, even
a small amount of dehydrationwhich you can't even really
notice, can potentially impactperformance.
So, again, we want to make surewhat we're hydrated, uh, there,
right.
So from a nutrition perspective, those are the big things.
And then, obviously, like yousaid, you know training is super
important.
But if we're not on top of ourlike protein, and when I mean
(17:39):
protein, like overall intake andeven timing, to an extent I
think you're going to uhpotentially impact your, your,
your muscle gain, um, andtherefore your body composition
over the long run.
Philip Pape (17:50):
Yeah, and, by the way, you guys, if you're
listening, if you don't followJeff's show, follow it, because
he he constantly goes into thesedetails and like what to do
under different scenarios.
So we're not, we're not goingto like dive into how much
protein you need and all thatfun stuff today, even though we
both could do it for hours.
What I really want the listenerto understand is is this right
for me?
Two more things come to mind inthat context.
(18:12):
One is how do you track this ina way that still motivates you?
Because I could see you,especially if you have a new
client.
Do you ever get a new clientthat comes to you and it's like
you know, I want a better bodyand I want to just like be a
maintenance.
I mean, that to me doesn'tsound sexy or like something
anybody would ever say, um, solike, is this a?
Is this the best protocol forsomeone who's just doing it for
(18:33):
the first time?
Because I could see a lack ofmotivation from a feeling like a
lack of direction.
How do you address that?
Jeff Hoehn (18:38):
Yeah.
So you know, again, I think itis important to see where, where
the client is at and what theywant to do when they when they
come in.
Right, because, again, ifsomebody is super like, again,
knowing what the client wants Ithink is super important, right.
So, again, like this ifsomebody is like, hey,
ultimately I want to lose bodyfat, and we look at their
history and they and theyhaven't dieted recently, okay,
(18:59):
well, hey, maybe we are going topush you into a small like a
deficit is going to be somethingthat's probably going to be
better for you now.
But let's say, somebody wantsto add muscle and like this is
what they want to do that.
And we look at their bodycomposition.
I'm like, hey, we could sithere and we can put you into a
surplus and have you gain weight, but do I think that's going to
be the best for your long termbody composition?
Because I think if we justfocus on scale weight, that's
where you're going to kind ofget yourself caught up and think
(19:20):
that you're just kind of notmaking progress.
So it's looking at otheraspects, right, and what I mean
by that is, yes, you know,progress, pictures, measurements
, but again, even those probablyaren't going to be like this
drastic change, you know, in atwo, three month span, just by
(19:44):
what we're doing here with thisapproach, right, so it's more so
like hey, you know, trainingperformance, like tracking that,
seeing that improve, like kindof you know, connecting the dots
there with the trainingperformance.
Also how they feel as well, too, right, like that's something
that I'm consistently liketrying to check in with clients
on of like, how do you feel?
Like, if you're feeling better,you're feeling strong, you just
feel more flexibility, you havemore energy from day to day, uh
(20:06):
, whatever that is for theperson, better libido, whatever
it is like those are things thatwe're really going to hone in
on, because I feel, like, atmaintenance, you can really dial
those things in.
Um, so, really kind ofconnecting the dots there, uh,
to show them improvement fromthat perspective, I think is is,
uh, it's huge.
And then again, if you takeblood, like if you get your
blood work checked, you know,looking at that, um, you know,
those are the things that Ialways try to connect to, like
(20:27):
looking at those things versusjust scale weight and then
explaining to them hey, if wecan nail this down to where you
know, we can get your habits inplace here.
Um, get your lifestyle habits inplace.
Um, you're getting stronger,you're adding some muscle.
Like this is going to set youup for more effective and
efficient fat loss.
When we, when we get there, um,or maybe you don't even need to
(20:47):
do that, maybe you decide likeyou love this and you feel soup,
like your, your bodycomposition continues to improve
and then maybe you feel likeyou don't ever really need to
fat loss diet.
Or maybe you do this and thennow it's like it makes fat loss
um something that you just dofor a very short amount of time
throughout the year, just tokind of clean things up a little
bit, versus like being in thisendless yo-yoing where, like
every time you get into fitness,you only focus on dropping
(21:10):
weight, don't really build anyhabits, and then you and then
it's just this kind of viciouscycle on there.
So connecting the dots therewith that, I think, is super
important too.
Philip Pape (21:17):
For sure, and you, you talked about kind of this
magic of maintenance when youwere on the show before that.
It can be used as a tool in inbefore you ever diet, you know
just to dial things in afteryou've gone through fat loss to
sustain.
Now we're talking about usingit strategically to potentially
improve your body recomplong-term as a mode to be in.
It's hard for me to understand,Jeff, because I just so love
(21:38):
change and like constantlyseeing things happen and but
some people are totally coolwith it.
Some people are like I don'twant the, maybe the fatigue of
constantly trying to add more orreduce more.
So when we do talk aboutstaying in maintenance and not
looking at the scale, therestill is a scale component in
that maintenance, by definition,is staying right here in this
(21:58):
like narrow range.
How do people do that in termsof using the scale, or do they?
Are there situations where theydon't even need to?
Because if, if you weighyourself today and then six
months from now you're roughlythe same, hey, you're kind of at
maintenance, right, I don'tknow what are your thoughts on
that.
Jeff Hoehn (22:14):
I personally, like I try to get everyone to use the
scale just as a as a tool, andlike try to educate them around
it, right?
So, like, cause I do get somepeople are like, oh, you know, I
just stopped using the scaleCause it gets in my head.
It's like, well, I want to workon that because we need to like
figure that out.
This is just data at the end ofthe day, right, so I like to
make sure somebody takes, youknow, their, their scale weight
there, cause I just think that,again, it's a great way to kind
(22:36):
of learn what's actually goingon, because, at the end of the
day, we do need to take that,because that's going to tell us
the energy balance that we arein, uh in, in that process,
right, so I think it's superimportant as far as, like, what,
what I'm looking for on thescale.
Again, this is, as I've said,with everything so far, it's
going to be very contextdependent on the person, but you
know what I mean by that is, ifyou just got done with the fat
(22:58):
loss phase and now we transitionyou to your maintenance
calories, you're going to seethis kind of weird stabilization
of your scale weight.
So that's just all kind ofnoise, in my opinion, right.
So there's that.
But from there, biggest thingI'm looking for is just not
seeing any trends in a shortamount of time, to me as
maintenance, right.
And so what I mean by that isif we're consistently seeing,
(23:20):
when we look at your averageweight for the week and we see
it trending either up or down,that you're in either a surplus
or a small deficit, and thenfrom there it's like, well, you
know, if we're finding that, hey, you're feeling good, your body
composition is really changing,maybe we can kind of continue
on that trend, no-transcriptplus or minus, and then again,
(23:55):
over time, maybe it is driftingin.
So just for example, um, my, mylast fat loss phase ended in uh
20, the end of 2023 ish, likeOctober ish timeframe.
I was one 55, spent the nextcouple of months purposely
gaining a little bit of weight,you know, letting things kind of
stabilize a little bit, uh, andthen from there I gained up to
(24:15):
about one 62 and then reallyover the last like 60 ish weeks.
You know it's been between one63 and one 66 and it's kind of
slowly trended up that way.
Now somebody could be like youknow it's been between 163 and
166 and it's kind of slowlytrended up that way.
Now somebody could be like,well, dude, you're in a small
surplus, but really it, to meit's.
It's maintained, really overtime, right, so we're talking
maintenance is not going to bethis exact number of like oh hey
, you're 166.6.
(24:35):
Now, you're going to stay thereevery single time you go in.
Right, you may see it trend oneway or the other, just a little
bit, but it's those short-termtrends that we just don't want
to see there.
Philip Pape (24:45):
This is a very important point, Jeff, I think
for people, because if you'rethinking of maintenance as
literally an exact number allthe time, you could be setting
yourself up for failure becauseyou could be dipping into
deficits.
And I don't know about you.
When I think body recomp, Irarely think of it as a very
tiny deficit, Like.
To me that's kind ofinefficient, right, Because your
(25:06):
body will adapt and keep you atmaintenance, but then now
you're not eating as much as youcould, so you're just never
quite fully recovered and you'renot really losing fat either.
So is what you're saying ismaybe the best, maybe one of the
best or efficient approach isto kind of be a little bit on
top, like almost have thatupward drift, because three to
six pounds in a year or two, itreally is nothing.
(25:26):
And and and frankly, if you'regoing to build muscle and that's
a denser tissue, like you saidearlier, you're probably going
to want to have a little extraweight anyway.
Is that?
Is that where the thinking is?
Jeff Hoehn (25:35):
Yeah, pretty much too Right, Like artificially low
maintenance, like thisartificially low maintenance
calories, where their theirbody's adapted to that and now
you know, they don't feel asgood, right, their body's just
(25:56):
not thriving at that point.
So what I suggest is at thatpoint, hey, you're going to
increase your calories a littlebit and you may see your weight
again kind of stabilize a littlebit, but you're feeling good.
And then you know, again, we'renot necessarily trying to push
weight up, but if it turns up alittle bit over say a three, six
, 12 month span, as long asyou're feeling good, body
composition still looks good.
(26:16):
You know, based on all thethings that we're tracking,
performance is good.
I'm not, I'm not concernedabout your weight, not like
coming up, you know, a couple ofpounds, right?
So again somebody could argueof like, oh, hey, that's not
maintenance, then that's a,that's still technically.
You're not trying to push scaleweight up every single time you
weigh in or over multiple weeks, right?
(26:36):
For?
Philip Pape (26:37):
sure, especially when the goal is body recomp.
The goal isn't to be atmaintenance, that's just a route
to get there right.
Jeff Hoehn (26:44):
Really, at the end of the day, what we're trying to
do here is we're just trying tofuel your body enough, okay, to
make sure that you're giving itthe micronutrients it needs.
Um, you know, when we're atmaintenance, everything just
flows much better, right?
When you're giving your bodyenough fuel, uh in in in that
process, right?
So, again, libido is going tobe in the best uh position.
Um, there, uh, again, you'regoing to feel your best here, uh
(27:06):
, in this right, bio, your, youruh blood work and everything
should be in a good spot.
As long as, again, as long aswe are continuing to do all
these things outside of, like,like the sleep stress, solid
nutrition, um, training, right.
I always tell people, justbecause your scale weights, if
your scale weight isn't trendingdown and you want it to, but
you're doing all those things,you're going to see a different
(27:28):
body composition over time, um,by by doing those things, right.
So I always try to frame it asthat.
And again, our body needs this,this period of time, to be
around these, these calories,and my whole thing on this is if
somebody, let's say somebody,they they do this fat loss, they
do muscle gain, but they stillhave some body fat they need to
lose.
This is the perfect positionfor you to be for, say, six,
(27:49):
nine months out of the year,because you're putting your body
in the best position to to feelgood where it's at, you're
continuing to build your habits.
Um, and you know, that beatssomebody who still has body fat
to lose and they're.
They're losing body fat, butthen they try and go into a
large surplus and gain weight.
Um, over time, right, but again, not to confuse people, it's
okay If you see your weight comeup a little bit during that
period of time.
(28:10):
The key is to just not try topush it continuously going up,
right, that's where people gainbody fat and that's where I
think people get themselvesstuck long-term in that process.
Philip Pape (28:19):
For sure, yeah, unless you're doing it on
purpose, right, like I justgained 15, 17 pounds and it's
like, and I got to pay for it byfat loss, dieting the other way
.
But so just very specific tipfor folks then, if they're
working with a coach who givesthem a target, or they're using
a tracking app and they have atarget, that where they think
their maintenance calories areat this point, um, do you
recommend slightly overshootingon a daily basis?
(28:39):
Is there a, like, a mentalstrategy you recommend to make
sure you're in the right spot?
Jeff Hoehn (28:44):
Yeah, this again, I hate to say this, but it's going
to depend on the client, right,like again, if they are super,
like, if they're a little bit onthe leaner side, they really
want to maximize muscle growth,I'm going to say, hey, it's okay
If you go a little bit over,right?
If someone is maybe a little bitmore, um, uh, I don't know the
word I'm kind of looking forhere they, they, they really
(29:06):
want to be careful with gainingbody fat mentally.
You know I can just tell, right, but we're going to pair that
with their biofeedback andeverything like that, and I want
to, I want to see how they'refeeling there and then obviously
again continuing to monitortheir, uh, their body
composition, because that'sgoing to, to me, that's going to
be the the biggest indicator,because I think where you want
to be careful with is people arevery good at under reporting
(29:28):
their, their caloric intake,right.
So this is where it comes intolike, okay, in theory, in theory
, in a perfect world, maybe wedo kind of have them push
slightly above what their quote,unquote, maintenance calories
are, whatever, whatever that isfor that person.
But in practice, this is where,like you kind of, I like to
rely on like, okay, here's whatI've seen.
I know that people tend tounderestimate their caloric
intake.
Let's, maybe you can be alittle bit lower than that,
(29:51):
right.
Philip Pape (29:52):
No, no, I agree.
Like different yeah, Differentpeople have different mental
framing around targets and, andyou know, like some people want
to hit the target right on Causethey're kind of robotic about
it, like you know, I lovehitting my targets Others always
have to be in one direction orelse they feel like they fail
every day.
Not that we want to have themin that mental state, but it
depends.
Like you said, it depends.
So, um, we, we covered a lot ofthe go ahead.
Jeff Hoehn (30:15):
Well, I was just gonna say, hopefully that gives
somebody an idea of like, hey,where you know you're kind of at
, that gives you a better ideaof where you should, should kind
of focus on.
And then again, looking at yourtrends, where's that trending
at over time, if you're slightlyseeing your body weight trend
down, someone who pushes it alittle bit higher, um as well to
there.
Philip Pape (30:32):
So this is why I like to talk to guys like you,
jeff, because we all haveslightly nuanced takes on this.
Like I would probably fall inthe trap on my podcast of saying
just always go over a littlebit if you're trying to be a
maintenance, cause I've seen toomany people diet under.
But then I recall the clientswho need to be careful because
they're they're trying to avoidgaining too much.
So again, whatever resonateswith you, you got to go with
(30:55):
that.
Is there any last tip orpitfall that we didn't cover
related to body recomp atmaintenance you want listeners
to know about.
Jeff Hoehn (31:02):
Yep.
So, again, like I said, I justthink people tend to overly
focus on, hey, surplus, gainingweight, losing weight, when we
need to focus on the trainingstimulus that we're sending,
because that, ultimately, isgoing to be the most important.
People overlooked that justbecause you're training doesn't
necessarily mean you're doingthat in the most efficient way.
There again, nutritionobviously not only calories and
macros, but like quality of foodthat you're bringing in, making
(31:25):
sure you get enough protein.
And then the couple that I seepeople commonly overlook are
going to be their lifestyle.
They're again setting up theirenvironment right, whether that,
again, that's yourrelationships, that's your
environment in terms of yourwork, what you, you know, what
you're around all the time.
Sleep is a huge one as well, too, and not only, hey, just get
eight hours of sleep, but sleepquality, like making sure we're
setting ourselves up for goodsleep, and you can kind of put
(31:47):
in your circadian health andcircadian rhythm into that.
And then and then stressmanagement, right, and stress
management being not only, oh,hey, I had a stressful day at
work, but again thinking aboutall the stress that we're
putting on our body, uh, andthinking about it from that
standpoint and balancing thatout to where.
Hey, you know we want to have agood balance of parasympathetic
, sympathetic inputs and makingsure we're balancing that out
and we're not letting it get toofar on, say, the sympathetic
(32:09):
side of things, right?
So, again, that's going to lookdifferent for everybody what
that is, but figuring out whatyou're doing to your body,
that's adding stress, and tryingto bring that down, those are
going to be things I thinkpeople often overlook and can
make the world of a differenceand really allow you to get more
out of every calorie that youput into your body.
Um, it's probably the best wayI could.
I could put that.
Philip Pape (32:28):
Yeah, it's a great way to put it because smart,
efficient, you know doing it theright way.
Otherwise you're kind ofwasting time, um, and you've got
some really good content onthis.
I know you do these workshopsoccasionally, these free
workshops on body recomp, thatkind of go through the big
pillars.
So if you guys are interestedin learning more, definitely
reach out to jeff.
And if you enjoyed thisconversation where we talked
about body recomp at maintenance, um, as I mentioned earlier, we
(32:51):
recorded a companion episoderight now in Jeff's feed the
mind muscle connection.
Go follow the show, download it, listen to it.
That's why we're keeping thesea little bit shorter.
Today, where I interviewed Jeffabout, or no, where he
interviews me, I get confusedabout using, um, what we're
calling a near maintenanceapproach.
So that's more.
When you want to step the gas,step on the gas pedal, go maybe
(33:13):
a little more aggressive, butstill get body recomp, as
opposed to necessarily going allout in one direction, and we're
going to get deep into thatthere.
So click the link in the shownotes or go search the mind
muscle connection on yourfavorite podcast app.
Check it out.
And Jeff, thanks, as always,man, for collaborating and
coming on the show.
Jeff Hoehn (33:30):
Yep, this is super fun dude.
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