How Women Can Build More Muscle and Gym Confidence (Holly Baxter) | Ep 307 - Wits & Weights | Fat Loss, Nutrition, & Strength Training for Lifters

Episode Transcript
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Philip Pape (00:01):
If you're a woman who's been grinding away at the
gym for months or even yearswith minimal muscle growth to
show for it, you might bewondering if it's your genetics,
age or even hormones.
You've tried increasing protein, lifting heavier and following
programs designed by top coaches, yet the results remain
frustratingly slow.
What if I told you the problemisn't your effort or your

(00:23):
genetics, but rather thetraining principles themselves?
Today, world championbodybuilder and nutrition expert
Holly Baxter joins me to revealthe science-backed strategies
that actually work for women'sunique muscle building needs.
You'll discover why the fitnessindustry is confusing all of us
, the real truth about hormonesand muscle growth and how to
break through those stubbornplateaus, even with less time in

(00:45):
the gym.
Listen up if you want tofinally build that strong,
aesthetic physique you've beenwanting.
Welcome to Wits and Weights, theshow that helps you build a
strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering and
efficiency.
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday we get into the science

(01:06):
of optimizing training for womenwith the incredible Holly
Baxter.
Holly is an accreditedpracticing dietitian with over
13 years of experience innutrition and training.
She's a two-time world championin the natural fitness division
, ifbb Bikini Pro.
Author, educator and creator ofBe A Fit, an innovative new

(01:28):
fitness app with lots ofscience-backed workout programs
and hundreds of macro-friendlyrecipes.
And today you're gonna learnabout training strategies that
work specifically with thefemale physiology, the truth
about things like hormones,muscle development, how to avoid
mistakes that keep women fromachieving their muscle building
goals.
From the very best who's doneit herself and worked with lots

(01:48):
of women like you.
We're going to get intorecovery tracking, nutrition and
more.
Holly, it is so good to haveyou on the show.

Holly Baxter (01:55):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm very excited to be here.

So let's just jump right into it.
You know a lot of women aretrying to build muscle, trying
to develop the physique.
But a lot of women are tryingto build muscle, trying to
develop the physique.
They might see you on socialmedia, follow you, and perhaps
they've been doing some of theright things.
Let's say, maybe they've gottensome of their habits dialed in.
They listen to this show, theyfollow you, they know some of
the basics of training andnutrition.

(02:19):
Even then, what would you sayis the biggest factor that holds
most?

women back from their muscle building potential.
Oh, I think this is a veryclear, distinct winner.
I would say their inability orunwillingness to commit to a
muscle building phase.

Okay, that's a good one.

I think most women tend to be ready to go in terms
of fat loss, which I can fully,you know, can go and I get
behind.
I think you know there's a timeand a place for that, but to
their own detriment.
I think a lot of folks willpursue fat loss over the
extremely important musclebuilding phase that's going to
allow them to actually makeprogress, you know, in the

(02:56):
future.

Yeah.
So that's good because I knowyou probably talk about fat loss
a lot.
It comes up and nutrition andwe talk people's ears off about
that.
But I've tried to get thatmessage out and I feel like
someone yourself, being a womanhaving a certain experience in
the past I know gone throughdisordered eating and you know
the whole physique competitionjourney that you can very much

(03:18):
relate to the fears as to whythey don't want to do that.
You know, is it really thegaining weight and the getting
bulky?
Is there something deeper thanthat?
What is your thought on that?

I think there's unfortunately just low
confidence and a lot of negativebody image.
You know, for a lot of femalesthat I work with and I think,
because I've been so open andjust transparent about my
experiences over the last decade, you know, in the bodybuilding
sphere, I think people have felta little bit more comfortable
kind of opening up and sharingtheir own struggles, and I mean

(03:50):
it's been a really long andchallenging journey for me too.
I'd say I wouldn't have beenable to work through that myself
without professional help.
So, speaking to my eatingdisorders, so I'd say from about
age 15 through to age 25, Istruggled with an eating
disorder.
I had bulimia and binge eatingdisorder and I think for the

(04:12):
longest time I spent all myefforts, all my mental energy,
all my physical energy, likedoing the things that I was
really good at, which wastraining like a Trojan and
putting in the work like in aphysical sense.
But I kind of lackedaccountability and didn't the
work like in a physical sense.
But I kind of lackedaccountability and didn't take
any responsibility for mypsychological state and I think
that I just assumed that I couldoutwork it and you know it was

(04:34):
a sad and false reality that Icarried, and it wasn't really
until I started working with apsychologist to kind of work
through that and, you know,provide some pushback and
challenge that negativenarrative that I held for myself
, did I then finally start tomake progress in a healthy way.
So I think that women do needto take some responsibility in

(04:55):
improving how they viewthemselves, and it is a really
huge obstacle to overcome.
But I think if you'reintentional about it, if you do
the work, if you do the readingand find somebody that you know
can support you through that,there is a wonderful existence
on the other side that stillaffords you to make, you know,
improvements to your bodycomposition, but you also still
feel so much better aboutyourself as a person.

(05:18):
You know, I think I used to, youknow, put so much value and
weight into physical appearancesand I never, you know, put so
much value and weight intophysical appearances and I never
, you know, gave myself enoughcredit for the other qualities
and characteristics that justmake me a good person until I
started focusing on those thingsand really shifting my
perspective about how I viewedmyself.
I was in the same boat, but Ithink that's a really important

(05:41):
component of getting to whereyou want to be with your
physical body, but I also think,lack of knowledge and
understanding about how ourbodies and our biology works.
So I think, through you know,lack of nutrition, education and
understanding.
That, too, is also another bigthing that holds a lot of people

(06:02):
back in making progress.
And there is so muchmisinformation available on
social media.
I think it's really a hard timeto know what's truthful and
what's, you know, completenonsense.
So you know, finding the rightprofessionals to kind of help
you navigate through that is acritical piece in this too.

I totally agree.
I mean, that's why I startedthis podcast, following
individuals like you and tryingto learn as much as possible and
know that physiology is,there's science to it and
there's experience and anecdoteas well.
But at the end of the day, youalso have to discover what works
for you individually based onthat, and it is a whole process.
I love how you said a wonderfulexistence on the other side,

(06:42):
you know, hitting right intoidentity, and you said you know
the qualities that make you agood person.
That hits part of me as well,because you could get so hung up
in the outcome and the physicalside that you don't address the
psychology, which then makesthe outcome very much easier to
attain, almost like a side bonus.

(07:02):
You know, unless you're talkingabout physique competition where
you have to really dial it upto that next level.
So we're talking about women,but like and I'm a man, so
enlighten me here but are theredifferences that we really do
need to pay attention to versusthose we don't?
And what I mean by that isthere's principles, right, there
are training principles,there's nutrition principles,
physiology that is kind of thesame no matter who you are, and

(07:24):
it has to be individualizedregardless.
What would you say for womenspecifically?
Are the things that they needto pay attention to beyond that,
that makes sense.

Yeah, so I think in terms of like muscle, like
physiology and muscle growth, Iactually have an entire chapter
on sex differences in my bookactually, which talks and plays
into this, probably a lot morein depth than what I will cover
today.
But I think first and foremostwe do need to identify that
there are some baselinephysiological differences
between men and women.
So men do tend to have agreater total amount of skeletal

(07:58):
muscle mass compared to women,and that has been observed in a
number of different researchstudies.
So one that springs to mind wasby Albey and colleagues, and I
think there's another one byGallagher and colleagues, and
they used a combination of DEXAand MRI, which MRI is the gold
standard for measuring musclecross-sectional area.

(08:20):
So in those researchinvestigations it does clearly
show that men have more skeletalmuscle, but it tends to be
disproportionately greater inthe upper body.
So men will have somewherebetween 30 to 60% more muscle in
their upper body compared towomen.
But if we then look at thefemale's physique, we tend to

(08:41):
carry a greater amount of ourmuscle mass thankfully, in my
opinion, in our lower bodies,and you know that kind of checks
out amount of our muscle mass,thankfully, in my opinion in our
lower bodies and you know thatkind of checks out I think you
know I can observe that inmyself.
I'm sure we observe that inourselves and the clients that
we work with.
So to me that doesn't reallycome as any kind of surprise.
But you know, does thatactually interfere or have any
influence on our ability tobuild muscle?

(09:03):
No, and there doesn't reallyseem to be any differences in
response to different trainingstimulus either, you know,
between men and women, which isgreat.
We're kind of all on an evenplaying field.
So if we take a look at, likesome of the research generally,
what we would expect to see interms of like muscle growth
adaptations in response to, likea resistance training program

(09:25):
and usually most of the studiesthat we look at are somewhere
between eight to 12 weeks induration and the norm or the
average change in musclethickness as measured by what's
usually B-mode ultrasound.
That's one that's most commonlyused in exercise science
because it's a little bit moreaffordable.
It's a lot more difficult toget your hands on an MRI and the
cost goes up astronomicallywith those types of measurement

(09:47):
tools.
But 0.2 to 0.3 centimetreswould be a typical like muscle
thickness increase over thattimeframe Now as a percentage or
relative change we mightanticipate, you know, muscle
growth being somewhere in therealm of like 6 to to 10% over
that time frame.
Now if we were to look atmales' data, we might see males

(10:10):
increasing by 0.4, say, of acentimeter, so we're doing 4
millimeters over that time span,whereas a female you might see
a response of 0.2, for instance.
But if we look at that relativechange or that percentage
increase in muscle thickness,they're not statistically
different, they're basically thesame.

(10:31):
So that's great.
It means that regardless ofwhether you're a man or a woman,
if you do your resistancetraining, if you train hard, we
all have the same potential tobuild muscle.
But there is one area that Iwill say women might actually
have a slight advantage, and Isay might for a couple of

(10:52):
reasons.
So a lot of the research thatlooks at this particular outcome
has been done in isometricexercise, which is basically
where you contract your muscleand you go to failure or to
exhaustion, but you're nottaking it through a full range
of motion.
So that type of training, whatwe would typically do in the gym
, is called isotonic training.

(11:13):
So in this isometric literatureit does seem to indicate that
women might be slightly morefatigue resistance resistance
rather and that might be in partdue to, like, our hormonal
differences.
So women tend to have moreestrogen than males and that can
help with vasodilation andnutrient delivery.

(11:33):
But women also tend to havemore capillarization too.
So I guess the benefits forthat would mean that women have
slightly better muscle perfusion, which is essentially better
blood flow delivery to ourmuscle and therefore also better
clearance of some of thosemetabolic byproducts that

(11:54):
accumulate within our musclewhen we do a working set.
So I guess the benefits withhaving more capillarization and
maybe more, you know, moreestrogen than our male
counterparts is that we probablyhave.
And again, this is notconsistent in the isotonic
research, but it is consistentin the isometric research is

(12:14):
that we might be better atrecovering between sets and thus
we might also be better atresponding to short rest periods
.
And I think this is reallyimportant because I know so many
of us ladies are alwaysextremely busy, are always
rushed, and you want to be ableto do something efficiently.

(12:35):
So potentially being able tocall upon short rest periods for
resistance training, or atleast be able to do it better
than males again, in somestudies might actually be a bit
of an advantage.
So, short of those things,there aren't really any other
differences that I can think of.
From a biological standpoint,that would mean women don't have

(12:58):
the same potential to buildmuscle as men.
And before I forget, there isone another area as well.
I remember seeing a paper Ithink it was by Weston
colleagues Don't quote me on theyear, but it was a few years
ago and they were looking atmuscle protein synthetic
response rates in response to,like an acute resistance
training session and despitesome pretty significant

(13:21):
differences in their hormonelevels after that bout of
exercise I think they werelooking at testosterone and a
handful of others.
There were some appreciabledifferences in testosterone
response but despite thosehormonal differences between the
men and the females in thisstudy, the muscle protein
synthesis was actually verysimilar.
It remained elevated betweenmen and women.

(13:44):
So I think this is all reallygood news.

Yeah, and that last one.
It just makes you realize howcomplex physiology is.
Right.
You can't simplify to justtestosterone if one sex has just
leagues more of this particularhormone and it doesn't make a
difference Incredible.
So just to recap, women have alower baseline muscle mass,
which makes sense.
We know that women have higherbody fat and there's biological
reasons for that, but can buildat the same rate and ostensibly

(14:11):
forever.
Right, there's really no agelimit.
You keep building muscle.
And then the fatigue resistantaspect.
That is fascinating.
I know what you're talkingabout, where we kind of don't
know and there's severalmechanisms we're trying to
understand.
But the idea that you couldhave more efficient workouts is
cool.
What about the recovery betweensessions?
Is that affected as well, forlike volume and frequency?

I probably haven't done as much reading in that
area specifically, but I mean,if I were to speculate, I think
there's probably always going tobe like a certain amount of
recoverable training volume andI think that we can probably
adapt to increasing trainingvolumes over time too.
So you know, when someone'sfirst starting out, if they're a
beginner, I would have tospeculate that initially if you

(14:56):
did a certain amount of trainingvolume you'd probably find that
you didn't recover very wellfrom that that stimulus.
But the more you do it there'sthat general adaptation,
neurological adaptations you'rebetter able to handle that
volume moving forward.
Sorry, I don't know that.
I've seen any specific studiesthat compare training response

(15:18):
or recovery times.
But yeah, I honestly don't knowthe answer to that.

How much do we know , holly, other than just get in
the gym train and figure it out?
But yes, it's funny becausevolume and intensity get a lot
of play, and especially on thepodcast, and there's a lot of
confusion.
And even from personalexperience, I just did a what
would you what you would call avolume based program, where
you're progressing to build yourbase with lots and lots of sets

(15:47):
, but highly submaximal.
So there's multiple trainingvariables involved and that's
where it gets confusing.
More volume could be recovered,more recoverable than less, if
you're at a like a lower load,for example.
That's just what comes to mind.
What about peri and postmenopause?
A very hot niche in likemarketing and the fitness
industry and like go other thanthe Ozepic crowd, right, uh, the

(16:08):
the GLP one crowd, it's, youknow so many.
I don't want to say excuses,but like a lot of the marketing
is around.
Everything is changing yourlife now because of the hormonal
differences and so you've gotto have specific training.
You got a specific diet,specific this.
What are your thoughts on thatin general?
But then where are thelegitimate changes?
Where a woman who you know herestrogen has dropped, her
gesturons dropped, she needs toconsider the changes that come

(16:29):
along with that.

Yeah, I think I'll probably start off with a
disclaimer.
So I haven't personallypublished any research in
menopausal or postmenopausalfemales.
All of the work that I've beeninvolved in are in young
individuals that are stillmenstruating, or males, of
course, as well.
So from what I have read, Imean unfortunately there is not

(16:51):
a lot of data at the moment inthat particular study population
.
I know it's becoming more andmore popular and I'm really
excited to see you know wherethat line of research goes.
I think Dr Stu Phillips has beendoing a lot of work up in
Canada specifically focusing on,you know, this group of
individuals.
But I think, generally speaking, we do know that you know, with

(17:13):
age, our sex hormonesspecifically do start to decline
, and know that you know, withage, our sex hormones
specifically do start to decline.
And for women, you know,testosterone is starting to
decline, estrogen is starting todecline at about age 30.
And it continues to do that,you know, through to the end of
life.
Basically, and whilst I don'tknow that that would necessarily
have any direct implications onhow much muscle we can grow, I

(17:35):
believe that some of thesymptoms of low testosterone and
low estrogen can becomeproblematic if you are aspiring
to have a high degree or a highamount of muscle mass just
through its capacity to leaveyou feeling exhausted and like
fatigued.
So if you're not feeling veryenergized due to having low

(17:57):
testosterone or low estrogenlevels, it's a lot harder to
stay motivated.
And you know, show up regularlyand consistently and lift, not
to mention then lift with anydegree of intensity, and we know
how important proximity tofailure is for muscle growth.
So I think that might beanother area where,
unfortunately, a lot of womenand I have worked with a lot of

(18:18):
women in the gym as well overthe years and we might perhaps
and I don't want to generalizetoo much because I've also
trained with some women thattrain really hard, but I might
say on average, maybe more womenstruggle to really train at
that rate of perceived exertionthat is going to be effective
for eliciting muscle growth.

(18:39):
There was a meta-analysis thatcame out just last year, I
believe, by the Data DrivenStrength guys here in Florida
actually, and they found thatsomewhere between an RPE of 7
through 10 seems to elicitsimilar, know similar muscle
growth responses.
But there are probably a numberof people that don't necessarily
train in that um like degree ofeffort and it's not because

(19:03):
they're lazy or, you know,they're not competent or able.
I think sometimes it all alsocomes down to, like our
confidence in the gym,especially for older women that
may not have grown up in thisfitness space Like I think of my
mom, for instance.
She's in her late fifties,women in their sixties like
fitness and lifting weightswasn't something that was super

(19:24):
popular, so they've kind ofadopted resistance training a
little bit later in life and maynot feel as confident as you
know us.
You know that have been in thegym for you know, two decades
almost, as in you know us, youknow that have been in the gym
for you know two decades almostas in you know in my case.
So I think there's probablyalso, you know, the element of I
don't really feel veryconfident in doing this, or they
don't have a workout buddy orsomeone that they're you know

(19:45):
training with.
That gives them that supportand encouragement to train hard
and truly take their muscles tofailure and truly take their
muscles to failure.
But to bring the conversationback to menopause in general, I
think all of the principles thatI use with my younger clients

(20:06):
are the same principles that Iuse with my older clients, and I
don't want to call them oldbecause they're not.
They're not in their 70s, I'mtalking like 40s, 50s and 60s.
So it probably means that forthis demographic we need to be a
little bit more focused anddialed in, because what I might
be able to get away with interms of my protein intake, my
calories, the consistency of mylifting, my sleep, my stress, it

(20:30):
probably needs to dial up a fewnotches relative to my younger
self.
So, outside of that, I thinkeverything that I teach is
basically the same, but weprobably need to focus a little
bit more.

So that's a good point because I there's like a
dichotomy here where the older,like my older clients that are
again older I'm 44 and whatever44 years young that sometimes
they're also more committed andwilling to do that and to learn.
There's like in a different,more mature life state in terms
of their wisdom and their hardknocks of life.

(21:08):
And again, not to generalize,but sometimes that counteracts
some of what you're saying,which makes total sense, but in
general for any age.
You mentioned RPE.
You mentioned exertion andworking hard, the confidence how
can you build that?
You mentioned a trainingpartner.
We know somebody can getcoaching and support, but let's
say they were by themselves.
Is there an actual trainingapproach, like using plus sets

(21:32):
at the end of your sets tofigure out what your true
capability is?
You know something like thatwhere you'd say, oh, this is a
cool technique, you can try toreally push yourself without it
being a willpower thing.

Yeah, look, I think I probably implement a
little bit more low loadtraining with my like 40 plus
clients and honestly, that'sprobably like 90% of my people
that I work with and there's acouple of reasons I implement
low load training and I bestgive a definition of what that
is first.
So typically, when we look atyou know, ways or approaches to
build muscle, we can implementhigh load training, which is

(22:07):
taking like relatively heavyloads for fewer reps.
So, to generalize, that's yourtraditional strength training 12
to sorry, 8 to 15 repetitions.
Low load training is where wetake lighter weights and we
perform a higher number ofrepetitions.
So that might be, you know,somewhere between 15 all the way
up to 90 reps.

(22:27):
And, believe it or not, thereare studies one here in fact, at
the University of South Floridathat did like 90 rep sets to
failure and they were able toaccomplish the same hypertrophy
response as the group that didthe traditional resistance
training.
So I think that that's goodbecause we've got such a broad
spectrum of like trainingstrategies and approaches that

(22:48):
allow you to grow muscle.
But as we get older, at leastin my experience and even me
personally I say my experience,my clientele, but even for me,
when I was doing, you know, somepower lifting training, I found
that like my joints weregetting sore, I was getting
injured and I was in my thirtiesthen and getting, you know,
like some problems that I wasn'texperiencing, you know, short

(23:10):
outside of doing like very heavytraining.
So you know, I do get thatfeedback a lot from clients that
are kind of coming in for thefirst time where they've tried
that traditional high loadtraining and they're, you know,
just feeling the wear and tearon their body, perhaps a little
bit more, you know, because ofthe aging process.
So the strategy that I use tohelp build confidence is the

(23:32):
reliance on low load training alittle bit more.
So we do, you know, higher repranges, slightly lighter loads,
but taking it to failure, or atleast very near to, to still
elicit a very good muscle growthresponse.
And you can also, I guess,improve and build confidence in
training to failure with lightloads, which is inherently safer

(23:52):
with techniques like myoreps,which is basically perform an
initial set of 15 repetitions,rest for a really short period
of time, I think 10 to 15seconds, followed by, like you
know, an eight rep set and thenyou rest again, followed by
another eight rep set.
So you basically kind ofcluster.
You know this group of exercisewith really short rest periods,

(24:13):
light loads, but you ofexercise with really short rest
periods, light loads, but youcan get very close to failure
doing that and the researchwould indicate that can lead to
similar growth responses.
You could also try approacheslike blood flow restriction
training.
Sorry, that's where you knowyou're applying a tourniquet or
some kind of cuff to theproximal portion of the arm or

(24:34):
the leg.
You're using significantlylighter loads and you can still
take that set to failure but ina much safer way, rather than
relying on really heavy loads asper traditional training to
signal muscle growth.
So that's kind of the approachthat I take.
And of course you know you'vegot to take everybody case by

(24:56):
case.
Some people you know are a lotmore confident in the gym.
Maybe they did some kind ofsport, you know, when they were
younger and they're just alittle bit more athlete.
But I've got people right nowwho are in their 60s and this is
the first time they've everbeen into a gym.
You know they've got variouslike physical issues and

(25:19):
limitations and it's a gym.
There's various physical issuesand limitations and it's a
process, but I think you meetthem where they're at and, as
you see them starting to grow incuriosity and confidence, the
ball just starts rolling andit's really cool to see.

Yeah, and this is why there are so many approaches
that can work.
And you mentioned the rep rangeis massive.
I mean anywhere from you know,two to 90 reps if you were to
combine all regimes together andwe're talking specifically
hypertrophy, you know we don'twant to get too much into maybe
strength and big lifts Like youalluded to.
I've had folks on the show wholike they're all into that and

(25:50):
then others that say, look,machines are just as effective
as free weights.
And the answer is yes to all ofit.
Like, meet you where you're atand make sure you're training
hard and within the proximity tofailure.
So I like that technique forindividuals who feel like you
know, maybe the big squatsaren't for them or they've tried
it or they're intimidated.
Okay, so we kind of alluded toearlier, I think, not dieting

(26:11):
and that you need to buildmuscle, at least be in
maintenance, at least be gaining, combining that with your
training.
What are your thoughts onperiodization for someone and
again our audience is like Iguess we're not talking to the
total beginner necessarily, orlike a little bit step above
that, who kind of understandsmacros and a little bit of this
but just break down whateffective periodization looks

(26:32):
like when we're talkinghypertrophy as the goal.

Look, I think periodization has its place
within a training program.
But I think you know theconcept in general was initially
like founded to help mitigate,like external stresses.
So essentially we would look at, let's say, the elite sporting
athlete who's, you know, tryingto compete in their let's say
it's a sporting athlete who'strying to compete in their let's
say it's a football game orthey're doing basketball or
something like this.
This concept or this idea ofperiodization is to help

(27:03):
mitigate and limit externalstress from other outside
sources.
So basically, as the stress ofone thing starts to increase, we
kind of want to taper down theother to make sure that there's
some sense of balance and thatthe person isn't dealing with
too much at any one time.
So I don't know that I wouldnecessarily utilize

(27:24):
periodization in my resistancetraining profiles or programs
for clients unless they havemultiple different stresses or
interests.
So if they came to me and said,look, I'm a professional
athlete, I also care aboutmuscle, I also am interested in
doing a marathon in six monthstime They've got a lot of

(27:45):
different interests Then I thinkthere's probably some relevance
for periodizing a program.
But for the average personwho's just going into the gym,
who's wanting to improvestrength to a certain degree,
but their primary goal is justhypertrophy.
I don't know that there is awhole lot of need to implement a

(28:05):
periodized approach, because weshould just be focusing on one
training program that is helpingthem achieve their muscle
growth, and I mean, if there'sno other competing stress, then
we don't really need toperiodize.
So I don't know whether thatdoes that make sense.

It does.
I'm so glad you took thatapproach and didn't let me like
lead you to what you thought Iwas trying to get to, because I
would agree, there's a lot ofconversation around like daily,
undulating periodization orlinear periodization.

So again, I think those approaches work well,
perhaps for individuals thathave strength specific goals but
they're also wanting to liftfor muscle growth.
So I know a lot of powerlifters, for instance, would
benefit from implementing somekind of periodized training
approach because they, you know,they're trying to manage the

(28:57):
fatigue from their hypertrophytraining whilst they're also
trying to maximize strength.
So you know there's probably agreater need in those instances
to include that type of trainingapproach.
But I think you know, forsomeone like myself, or maybe
the people that are listening,if you're just going into the
gym with the goal of improvingyour metabolic health, growing

(29:18):
some muscle and internal, so youknow, making some improvements
in strength, that's probably notas important.
I think.
You know I want to minimize thecomplexity of someone's program
so minimal is best.

No, it's good to identify who it's appropriate
for and it depends on your goals, right?
If you're an endurance athleteand you're going to do some big
cycling race in six months, youknow you may have to back off
from that and decide how youtrain now versus how you train
closer to the race.
Or if you're an athlete, or youknow, if you are building
strength, there's like a baseand a peak.
You know phase you would gothrough and you wouldn't want to

(29:53):
be doing seven lifts a day,type body building training when
you're going for the peak.
But for most people, like yousaid, keep it simple.
There is a lot of programhopping and we're not talking
about that either.
How committed should someone beto a single program style or an
actual program in terms ofweeks or months when they're
just trying to get the bestresult?

(30:14):
Keep it simple, keep goingbefore they maybe get tired of
it.
Is it psychological, like whenyou just get bored of it and
you're ready to move on, or isthere a point where the variety
is necessary for extra stimulusand symmetry and development of
your physique?

Yeah.
So this is a really interestingquestion I'm sure we have put.
So I have a research reviewwhere each month we publish, I
guess, four different articleson different topics in relation
to exercise science andnutrition, and I feel like we
did one very recently thatlooked at exercise variety
versus like a very repetitiveyou know, very repetitive style
training program, and I thinkthere are potentially some

(30:51):
benefits to exercise variety ifthe exercises are targeting in
different joints, differentangles and also potentially
different muscle groups withinlike a specific area.
So I think, to give an example,uh, like a leg press or a squat
probably does a really good jobat targeting not only the
rectus femoris but the vastuslateralis and the vastus

(31:13):
medialis, so three differentareas within our quad, whereas
like a extension that does afantastic job at, I believe,
just, you know, nailing andhammering the vastus lateralis,
that big muscle down the frontof the leg.
So you know, in a sense, youprobably want to have a
combination of different typesof exercises to ensure that
you're covering all of yourbases.

(31:35):
But ultimately, if you have aspecific set of training goals
and I'll just use my own rightnow because it's a really easy
example to talk about becauseI'm a bikini competitor.
All I care about is my glutesand my shoulders.
I do not care about anythingelse at the moment.
Sorry, the majority of my workand time spent in the gym is
those two muscle groups.

(31:55):
Everything else is a secondaryfocus.
So, provided that your programis set up to specifically target
the muscle groups you careabout, if there is enough
diversity within those exercises, like we've kind of just
described, there's technicallyno need for you to ever change
your program.
Because you know, if you've gotfive staple movements that are

(32:17):
targeting the muscles that youwant to grow, then in essence
you could do that same programfor an entire year, provided
that your goals didn't change.
Now, of course, you'd need toimplement all of the.
You know typical principles ofhypertrophy, you know training
with a high degree of effort,implementing progressive

(32:40):
overload, and you know thatwould obviously increase your
rate of perceived exertion overtime.
But yeah, short of that, I meanI think the biggest reason why
I change my program is just forenjoyment, like program
excitement, program motivation.
It's about six weeks for mewhere I'm like yep, I'm ready
for a new program.
I don't know about you, butit's about that time for it.

Yeah, it sounds about right.
Six weeks, six to nine weeks.
I would say, yeah, that's rightin the bailiwick, okay.
So what about so if we're notnecessarily having to periodize
and we're not necessarily havingto change the program
frequently, which is good.
It keeps it simple,straightforward.
You commit, you develop.
I think there's a lot of, likeyou mentioned, neuromuscular

(33:21):
adaptation.
There's aspects that you justin the first week you know you
have that soreness and then youget, you'll get adapted and now
you're growing.
What about the different phasesof nutrition that go with that?
Because people will say, well,what should I do during fat loss
versus not?
Because my opinion is, if it'sauto-regulated it can all work
in all phases, versus, say,chasing PRs, which is going to
be very difficult in fat losswhen you don't have as much

(33:42):
energy but there's also a volumecomponent too, right, like you
almost sometimes can't work asmuch in fat loss.
What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, definitely.
So I mean I have definitelybeen through my first year of
fat loss training.

Of course.
To the extreme right, I mean Ihave definitely been through my
first year of fat loss pain, ofcourse, right now unfortunately
To the extreme right, yeah, tothe extreme.

So I mean, if somebody is striving for muscle
growth, I mean if you're tryingto do that in a calorically
restricted state, I think you'regoing to limit your capacity to
grow muscle and probably alsojust your general enjoyment and
your performance, like all ofthose things, are going to be
compromised, and again, thedegree to which probably depends
on how long that diet phase is,how much total body mass you've
lost and other factors likethat.

(34:24):
But it's interesting, and I tryto refer back to the research
and what we actually see.
The most recent paper that Iread was by Helms and colleagues
and they were reviewing, Iguess, a fixed resistance
training program under differentcaloric states.
So there was a group that werejust at their calculated
maintenance for this trainingintervention.

(34:44):
It was a group that ate in amodest surplus and then there
was a group that ate in a highsurplus and what was really
interesting was that thehypertrophy response between
those groups was actuallyinsignificant.
Now I might argue that thestudy design perhaps wasn't as
great as it could have been.
I don't know whether theprogram that they implemented
with these participants wasnecessarily geared up to have

(35:07):
them make meaningful musclegrowth changes.
I don't know whether the volumewas quite high enough for this
group of resistance trainedindividuals, but my theory is
and again, I can't say that I'veseen any data on this, but you
know, anecdotally, through thework that I've done with clients
, and maybe you've experiencedthis too I think that the the
ability for somebody to buildmuscle might actually come down

(35:31):
to their starting like body fatpercentages or their current
body composition.
So my hypothesis would be thatand again I have to pick a line
in the sand here so I'm going tosay 25% body fat If you are
above 25% body fat, I think,even if you are at maintenance
calories.
I believe, based on what I haveseen with clients over the last

(35:53):
two decades of workingone-on-one with people, and for
myself too, I do believe thatthese individuals can make
meaningful progress in terms ofbuilding muscle because they
have, you know, they haveresidue body fat, they have an
energy source on their personthat they can utilize to, you
know, build that foundationalmuscle.
Conversely, the leaner we get,there's less of a reservoir of

(36:17):
energy, there's less adiposetissue that can be used for the
provision of energy and to buildmuscle.
I suspect that the leaner, weget sub 25% body fat.
I think it becomessignificantly more difficult to
build an appreciable amount ofmuscle in that state If you're
not then providing that energythrough dietary meats.

(36:39):
So I do think it's possible forpeople to build muscle even at
maintenance and probably even ina deficit in some cases.
But that probably depends ontheir baseline characteristics.
For the leaner individual, ifthey are trying to also create a
deficit, it'd be like if Itoday you know I'm four weeks
out from a competition there isprobably very little chance that

(37:00):
I'm building any muscle rightnow.
I'm just trying to hang on todear life for what I've got
because I don't have a whole lotof energy reserves to fuel, you
know, the building of moremuscle tissue.
So I think you were talking wasyour original question about
strength.

No, it was about the confusion over like, how
should I train in differentphases?
And what you just said was youknow, depending on the energy
stores you have on your bodyright, the more fat to lose, the
easier it is probably to buildmuscle without being in a huge
surplus, and leaner you are, youneed a surplus.
I guess the sub question forthat is should people train?

My answer would probably be no, with a few minor
caveats.
So I'd say that if your goalsare unchanged so if you still
have the goals of building afantastic set of quads or a
gigantic set of biceps theprogram that you implement
during a fat loss phase wouldstill be the same program that
you implement during a musclebuilding phase.

(38:02):
The key differences would bethat you're probably not going
to quite get the same responseto that program.
If you're in the extremecalorie deficit and you're a
really lean person, the caveatmight be that, due to low energy
availability and perhapsinadequate micronutrient intake,
your recovery probably isn'tgoing to be as good during that

(38:23):
calorie deficit.
So I would say that thetraining probably going to be as
good, you know, during that, uh, calorie deficit.
So I would say that thetraining probably needs to be
geared towards, um, a moremodest approach.
So, for instance, I do not everprogram, or very rarely, I
shouldn't say ever.
I do not program very often whenI'm dieting.
You know rpe 10 or rpe 9.
Even I try to train within anappropriate, you know, rpe 10 or
RPE 9.
Even I try to train within anappropriate, you know, or at an

(38:47):
appropriate intensity, but notso high that I, you know, injure
myself, because my injury riskwould be heightened during a
calorically restricted state.
So I think the intensity atwhich I train is probably a
little bit less.
And then the other thing I thinkthat's important to consider is
that when you are dieting andyou're calorically restricted,
your performance is going tosuffer.

(39:08):
At some point.
You might start to seeperformance decrements what you
were able to lift at thebeginning of your training block
eight weeks in and your dietingmight be noticeably different
because you don't have the sameenergy levels to kind of get in
and train really hard.
And that's also problematic fordieting too, because we do

(39:31):
start to see trends down in howmuch energy you're actually
expending during your workoutswhen you're in that calorically
restricted state too.
So it makes it harder andharder to lose fat.
You know the lower yourcalories and the longer you've
been dieting, so it makes itharder and harder to lose fat.
You know the lower yourcalories and the longer you've
been dieting, so it's a toughsituation to navigate.

It absolutely is.
And I know from personalexperience right now because I'm
also in a fat loss phase forthe last four weeks or so kind
of a mini cut which is very,very aggressive.
And you go in with high hopesthat you're going to continue
your training just like you weredoing and you're like I need to
cut volume here because there'sjust nothing left, even with
the banana right before yourworkout or whatever.
Calories are just so low.

(40:11):
So people need to understandthat.
But then also, getting back tothe other side, the muscle
building side, it implies thatthere's potentially a lot of
opportunity for women to spendtime in that type of phase not
gaining, you know, tens and tensof pounds and lots of fat,
right?

Carol (40:31):
But doing it in a lean, healthy way.
Before I started working withPhilip, I had been trying to
lose weight and was reallystruggling with consistency, but
from the very beginning, philiptook the time to listen to me
and understand my goals.
He taught me the importance offueling my body with the right
foods to optimize my training inthe gym, and I lost 20 pounds.
More importantly, I gainedself-confidence.

(40:52):
What sets Philip apart is thepersonal connection.
He supported and encouraged meevery step of the way, so if
you're looking for a coach whocares about your journey as much
as you do, I highly recommendPhilip Pape.

What are your general?
I mean, we could spend a wholeepisode talking about muscle
building, what to do, and I'vetalked about it as well but like
, what are your top threeprinciples, I guess I would say
for someone wanting to do theirfirst serious muscle building?

phase.
I can't stress enough theimportance of patience and I
think once somebody understandsthe reality of speed at which a
muscle grows, I think that canbe really helpful.
A lot of people don't have asolid understanding of what's
realistic, so when I mentionedto somebody, it is really like

(41:43):
watching paint dry.
You know, I mentioned before,0.2 to 0.3 of a centimeter is
what we would typically observein the average eight to 12 week
study intervention.
So I'll say, okay, we're goingto do a three month field.
I'm like do you think that youcould see three millimeters if I
were to tell you to look in themirror and most of them will
say, oh, probably not.
So then I might say to themokay, well, what about six

(42:10):
months?
So we do a six month build.
And you didn't have anyinterruptions.
You consistently trained thatentire way through.
Maybe now you've acquired 0.6of a centimeter.
Do you think that you could seethat in the mirror?
And some of them might say yes,others might say no.
But I'll always push back andsay, well, if you've got body
fat and most of us do during abuild I would encourage you to
have some body fat if you'regoing to do a build, so that
you've got the energy to trainhard.
But most of us wouldn't be ableto see even that kind of a

(42:31):
change because we have a layerof body fat sitting over that
muscle.
So I think that it is.
It's a challenging phasebecause you can't see the
rewards immediately, like youcan when you're dieting.
You know there's that instantgratification when you start to
see body fat stripping away, um,but you can't really see muscle
growing.
So I think you know patience isso important, um, and I know I

(42:55):
sound like a broken record in mycheck-ins to my clients, but
I'm like this is eat, sleep,train, repeat right now and make
sure that you enjoy what you'redoing so that you do
consistently show up and keep atthis and, I think, reminding
folks that the benefits may notbe visible.
Now, this is like yourshort-term sacrifice for
long-term gain.
But for every one kilogram ofmuscle that somebody puts on,

(43:20):
you're able to increase yourbasal metabolic rate by
somewhere in the measure of 22to 25 calories per kg.
So on the front end thatdoesn't sound very meaningful,
right?
So let's say you put on fourkgs I mean that's or five
kilograms.
We're talking 100 calorieincrease to your BMR.
But it's when you then move thatmore muscular body and you just

(43:41):
go about your day to dayactivities or you do the same
lifting program that you've beendoing for a few years in that
more muscular body.
Now it burns so many morecalories because it's moving and
it makes it so much easier inthe future to actually achieve
your fat loss goals.
Because, without changinganything to how much exercise

(44:02):
you do, you might do the samecardio.
Anything to how much exerciseyou do, you might do the same
cardio, same five-day trainingsplit, same incidental movement.
But your body's like a guzzlingtruck.
That's just incrediblyinefficient.
It uses a lot of energy.

(44:22):
So it's so much easier to burnfat and then maintain a leaner
physique once you've acquiredthe muscle.
But again, I think so manywomen get stuck on.
But I want to see my leanerself.
I want to be lean.
For every week that they diet.
That could have been a weekchasing the muscle that they
ultimately need.

No, it does, and that's like an investment in
years and years and years ofmuch easier living, dieting,
whatever you're trying to doafter that.
Like you said, we did anepisode not long ago called like
10 ways muscle burns morecalories beyond what you think,
or something that was lookinginto the research beyond just
the cost of the tissue that youmentioned.

(45:00):
Right that in American units,right, 10, 10, around 10
calories per pound.
But same thing where there'sother things happening, some
that we don't even understand.
Right, there seems to be othermechanisms, signaling mechanisms
and such that cause us to burnmore calories because we have
more muscle, not to mention juststanding around with more body
weight.
Because you're leaner at ahigher body weight, you're

(45:21):
burning more muscle.
That's pretty cool.
And then the patience of ofdoing it and getting through it
and you, as a coach, saying,look, just keep doing what
you're doing and focus on theprocess.
That's all I can help you withright now.
And as a coach, you're probablylike I wish there was some
other special magic thing I canmention this week.
But there is it.
Just keep it up.

Yeah, I think for men and women too.
though.
I mean I work with dozens ofguys as well.
Some compete competitively,Others are just gen pop wanting
to be healthier, live a betterquality life.
But I think even the malesstruggle with not necessarily
being at their lean, shreddedphysique too.
I get just as much, or close tothe same, kind of pushback,

(46:02):
having a little bit of the tummytire or excess body fat.
But yeah, I think this is whyit's also important to have a
coach or to do the work yourself, whether it's through listening
to audio podcasts, reading thathelp you improve your overall
confidence and like self-worth.
I know a lot of the clientcoaching sessions with my

(46:23):
clients are just helping them,you know, recognize their value
outside of their physique andkind of talk them off the cliff
that they're sitting on becausethey feel so unhappy in how they
look visibly.
But you know, we then focus ontheir performance and you know
how they're feeling and theirconfidence in you know, being
consistent and all these otherthings.

(46:45):
So, yeah, it's.
There are different focuses, Ithink, in a building phase and
different challenges and, yeah,again, I think the biggest thing
is just having patience as yourmuscle is growing.

Yeah, and you just mentioned one way to maybe
support that patience with someI'll call it instant
gratification or short-termthinking is tracking the right
things that cause there arethings that do change more
quickly that you could celebrate.
What would those be?
What would be the big thingsthat most people should be
tracking?

Um, I would say, uh, like, if they're open to
doing like macro tracking, Ithink, um, knowing and feeling
confident in your, yourdecisions around your nutrition
is helpful.
Knowing that you're getting asufficient amount of protein in
uh is really important.
I, for some of my clients, theyjust track protein and calories
.
Others are tracking you know,all macros.
But I think that that givesconfidence and, you know, helps
them in trusting the process.

(47:40):
If they know that these are mycurrent calories, this is
intended to keep my weight, youknow, know, relatively stable,
or at least they've got atrajectory of where they're
heading and each week they canlook at their data and go, yep,
okay, what's happening issupposed to be happening.
So, yeah, caloric tracking,nutrition tracking, I think is
really important, proteinespecially.
And then from a trainingstandpoint and this is not

(48:00):
something I always used to do, Iprobably only implemented it in
the last maybe eight to 10years of my practice is tracking
energy expenditure, like withina workout.
So I mean, many of us wearApple watches, garments, fitbits
, tracking how much energy youexpend in your workouts and just
looking at the relative changesweek over week.
And then, if you're open to it,I also have some of my clients

(48:21):
that, like data, do the samething, you know, with their
steps.
We'll track relative changesfrom week to week so they can
kind of see and make sense ofwhy you know their weight might
have gone up a little bit morethis week than others.
And it could be very easilydistinguishable because, oh,
look at that, my average stepsthis week were 4,000 less than
last week.
Or, oh, see all those sessionsthat I missed because I was busy

(48:42):
doing things with the kids.
Oh well, see all those sessionsthat I missed because I was
busy doing things with the kids.
Oh well, that amounted to athousand calories less than last
week.
Oh well, naturally that's whymy weight went up a little bit,
sorry, I think having that datacan be validating because it
helps us make sense of whythings are happening.
I think tracking fiber isanother really important one
that obviously influences scaleweight significantly really

(49:05):
important one that obviouslyinfluences scale weight
significantly.
So I think one of the thingsthat a lot of my clients have
been grateful for is me beingable to point out, like why you
know their weight went down orwhy it went up.
In response, to massivefluctuations in just food choice
.
I'm like, guys, this isn't evena bad thing.
Like here's why you gainedweight.
It has nothing to do with bodyfat.
Like here's why you gainedweight, it has nothing to do
with body fat.
So data certainly can be apositive thing, especially if

(49:29):
this is a long, six to 12 monthgame plan of building so that
you can make sense of thechanges, and that gives
confidence.
Yeah, and I think, just from atraining standpoint, having some
physical challenges that youcan work towards too, it's one
thing to just look at yourselfin the mirror, but to have
something that you can tangiblytry to improve in terms of

(49:51):
strength, picking a few keyfocus lifts and getting into the
gym and having aperformance-based goal, I think
is also incredibly valuableduring that building phase.
Otherwise, it just becomes verymonotonous and repetitive.

Yeah, it's kind of meandering and aimless at that
point.
I totally know what you mean.
It could be a PR on a lift orit could be hey, I'm going to do
my first unassisted pull-up, orwhatever it might be.
One thing I want to ask aboutyou said energy expenditure in
your workouts.
Why do you track thatspecifically?
And I ask for two reasons Oneis the inaccuracy of some of
this data on wearables, to behonest.
But then the other is what areyou trying to measure?
Because I would suspectmeasuring volume, tonnage,

(50:31):
things like that are a goodindicator of your lifting
progress, but what are youtrying to measure with that
expenditure?

Yeah, sorry, the reason that I would track energy
expenditure.
And I want to just point outyou are 1000% correct about
these wrist-worn prices beinglargely inaccurate.
I'm not looking at thosenecessarily for their absolute
number, so I don't believe whenI see somebody's done you know,
5,000 calories of energyexpenditure across the week from
their lifting and their cardio,that that's actually true and

(50:57):
correct.
I'm looking at the relativechange from week to week just to
.
And again, if they're atmaintenance, I want to be able
to say to them your energybalance has stayed pretty
consistent this week and thusthere shouldn't be anything to
worry about in terms of yourbody composition changing.
And again, a lot of my clientsare worried if in their in their
building phase, that I'msuddenly putting on all this

(51:19):
body fat.
So it's nice to have that datato show them.
Hey, look, for the last fiveweeks of your you know training,
you've had very consistent weekto week energy expenditures.
Sorry, you know, there's noreason to believe that you've
put on body fat.
And then the volume trackingthat's really nice.
If you train in the samelocation with the same equipment

(51:40):
.
I find that I place less valueand weight in volume if I've got
a client that is traveling, youknow, every week their year, uh
, because of their work, andthey're in different gyms where
the machines all load a bitdifferently.
So, um, yeah, I think thevolume tracking has its place.
If you do and are somebody thathas a um, a gym that you train

(52:02):
at consistently and you'refollowing a structured program,
because then you can atconsistently and you're
following a structured programbecause then you can actually
see like you're making progressin said lift.
If you've got your overhandshoulder press you've been
working on that I mean you cansee your volume increasing week
over week.

But those are all fair points.
And I asked about the energything because I'm going to start
using that with my clients.
Honestly, I've never just I'vealways dismissed it because of
the inaccuracy and like tryingto understand the value.
But if you take the totality ofas a proxy for just your
overall activity and energy flux, it's great and it goes beyond
just steps right Because it kindof includes everything, I think

(52:38):
that's pretty cool.

Yeah, some of the clients will use some of theirs
just run in the background.
We'll use some of theirs justrun in the background.
So they'll give me their totaldaily energy estimated energy
expenditure.
I probably use that less but Ido like it for if you've got a
six week or a nine week program,as you said, that you're
following consistently, if, like, I like to look at well, what
was your energy expenditure forthese sessions.

For the sessions yes, yes.

And sometimes you will see noticeable differences,
and it might be oh, you know,my kid had me up all night, I
didn't sleep, or I have beenunwell, and you can see the
changes week after week, eventhough it's the same program.
Um, that can help, um provide areasonable justification for
why their weight might be movingaround a little bit.
So, um, yeah, I find that veryhelpful.

Got it?
No, I love that stuff.
We're all about data and I'malways trying to discover new
things to track.
You know HRV over here and thisover there.
Do you have like five minutesjust to wrap?

Okay.

Absolutely, because the one thing I kind of was
going to lead part of thisdiscussion with was more about
time efficiency and I and theconversation actually took a
really nice direction and othervery critical topics but I did
want to get back to if women arestressed.
You know they have a stressfullife, busy life.
I'm sure lots of women in youryou know client base are trying

(53:49):
to find the time to work out.
We know it's important butthere's also a limit with kids
and with family or with work.
What is, I'll say, the minimumeffective dose?
Right?

Or minimum viable product, whatever with time in
the gym or number of sessions orlength of sessions where you
still can get amazing resultsfor hypertrophy.
Yeah, so it does depend onsomeone's training status.
So for like beginners, brandnew to lifting the first time
stepping in the gym, then thenumber of sets that you would
need per muscle group per weekis probably somewhere between 10
to 15 sets.
So it's actually quitedifficult to prioritize every
single muscle group, believe itor not, otherwise you'd probably
be living in the gym, and evenmore so if you're an advanced

(54:31):
lifter.
But to just generalize, ifyou've got, say, three key areas
you want to grow and you'retime poor and you're a beginner,
then just make sure that thosethree key muscle groups you are
doing somewhere between 10 and15 sets per week and that you're
distributing them over aminimum of like two days or two
days.
Training frequency.

(54:52):
What we tend to see is, onceyou perform more than, say, nine
hard working sets, when takento failure within a single
session on one muscle group.
So, example, quads you wouldn'twant to do four quad exercises
taking you to 12 sets in thatsame session.
There starts to be diminishingreturns.
So we don't necessarily see anyadditional benefits in terms of

(55:14):
hypertrophy beyond that.
So I personally stick to likesix to nine sets maximum on one
muscle group before I move on.
But for advanced lifters thosenumbers are quite a bit higher
and I would say probablysomewhere between 20 and 30
working sets or direct sets,taken close or to failure, per

(55:34):
muscle group per week.
So I have found in myexperience I can usually only
fit about two or three focusedmuscle groups up in that kind of
volume range before I run outof days in the week to train.
So everything else kind of thentakes a back seat.
So if I pick my glutes and myshoulders and maybe my quads as

(55:56):
my focus muscle groups, that'sgoing to take up a few days of
your training.
So you know all of the othergroups might end up being just
at maintenance volume.
So that would be somewherebetween you know, zero and 10
sets per week would probably Ishould say three sets to 10 sets
per week would help you tomaintain your current muscle

(56:17):
mass as an advanced lifter.
So that's kind of how I wouldencourage somebody to think
about their their training weekif they're time poor and then to
utilize like efficient trainingstrategies.
So I mentioned before, like thebenefits of potentially relying
on like female biology,capitalize on short rest periods

(56:39):
.
We have this innate ability atleast it seems sorry in some
research to have shorter rest.
So, provided that your recoveryallows you to perform eight or
more repetitions in yoursubsequent sets, you know, even
if you've had 30 secondsrecovery, that still leads to
the same kind of growth responseas resting for three minutes.

(57:02):
Now, I know some people loveresting for long periods.
Go for it.
You'll probably have a muchhigher total volume, but that
doesn't inherently mean thatyou're going to get more muscle
growth.
So, yeah, I opt for short restperiods when I'm busy.
I'm usually only in the gym,like four times a week for about
60 minutes myself, so thatplays a really important part in

(57:23):
getting in and getting out andstill getting a really effective
workout.

That's good.
I mean people.
It's good to understand thatthis is accessible for anyone at
any training age, even as anadvanced, and by by the time you
get to be an advanced lifter,you're you're probably so into
it that you're going to find thetime anyway.
That's my take on it.
But you know your, your app, uhbe a, is new and improved and
got lots of great features.
How does that play into howpeople train and help them do

(57:49):
this?

Yeah, oh, my gosh, I'm so excited about it.
So we launched a product lastyear actually and unfortunately
we had to take it off the marketfor various reasons that I
can't discuss today.
But I have a new businesspartner and we basically rebuilt
this thing bigger and better,and it is incredible.
So we have hundreds ofdifferent training programs with
many different focuses.
So I believe we have strengthfocus programs, hypertrophy,

(58:14):
cardio, mobility and warmupprograms and catered to
different experience levels, andall the programs implement an
evidence-based approach and it'sgot so many really cool
features.
So one of the things that Ialways found frustrating when I
used to be a personal trainer,back when I was like 18 years
old, was I'd write a program fora client and they're like I

(58:35):
don't have that piece ofequipment feature where, if you
use this little button, it willshow you every other exercise in
our entire workout library thattargets the same primary muscle
group as the movement you'retrying to replace, so you don't
have to guess your exercise.
It'll show you these are the 50or 60 other movements that will

(58:57):
target that muscle group.
So that's been really a reallygreat tool.
We've also got a brand newbuild your own workout feature.
So for those that are moreadvanced and just want to kind
of dabble and having a niceplatform for your programs as
opposed to putting them in Excelsheets, it does that.
But it's got so many coolfeatures and I can't wait to
keep adding more.

Great yeah.
And look, if someone'slistening and you're looking for
a workout program based onevidence-based principles.
And, by the way, the two painpoints you just talked about
from personal experience are bigpain points like swapping
exercises.
I do it all the time, whetherI'm following my own program or
someone else's.
Just I'll need to do it, andmost apps you just have to know
and then search for it, and sothat is really cool.

(59:38):
And then I know you havemeal-friendly or macro-friendly
food in there as well.
So for people that are tryingto get an all one-stop shop for
everything, it sounds like agreat app.
So we're going to, we're goingto throw that in there.
Is there anything else you wishwe had covered?

um, holly, before we adjourn, oh my gosh, there's
so many things.

No, not right now.

Okay.

No, that's all good .
Um, where do you want people tofind you?

Holly Baxter (01:00:01):
I mean, we'll definitely throw the app in
there, or else you want them tohit you up.
I think most things you're ableto discover on my Instagram
platform, but I'm on YouTube.
I always do educational videoson YouTube.
That's kind of my pride and joyover on that platform.
But I put lots of content outon Instagram.
We put our website, we've gotthe app links and everything
available right there.
So that's just Holly T Baxter.

Philip Pape (01:00:22):
Cool, all right, we'll keep it simple.
Through the app, the YouTube,the IG, people can reach out to
you.
Thank you so much for coming on.
These are always really goodtopics to revisit because
there's so many myths out thereand so much nonsense, and I like
your measured, you know,evidence-based approach, but
it's still super flexible andanyone can do this.
So thank you, holly, forbringing your expertise to the
show of the show.

Holly Baxter (01:00:44):
Thank you, I had a great time.

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How Women Can Build More Muscle and Gym Confidence (Holly Baxter) | Ep 307

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How Women Can Build More Muscle and Gym Confidence (Holly Baxter) | Ep 307