Losing Weight is Easy But Keeping It Off Takes Real Skill (Mikki Williden) | Ep 373 - Wits & Weights | Fat Loss, Nutrition, & Strength Training for Lifters

Episode Transcript
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Philip Pape (00:01):
If you've ever lost weight only to watch the scale
creep back up months later,you're not alone.
But what if I told you thatregaining weight is connected to
a fundamentally flawed way thatwe measure success with our
health?
Today, my guest reveals whyanyone can lose weight, but
keeping it off and achievinglasting health requires an
entirely different set of skills.

(00:23):
You'll learn why the scale isthe worst possible measure of
transformation, the hiddenskills that separate temporary
weight loss from permanentchange, and why most people
become smaller, weaker versionsof themselves instead of the
strong, capable person theycould become.
Stop chasing the wrong metricsand start building the

(00:44):
competencies that actuallymatter.
Welcome to Wits and Weights,the show that helps you build a
strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering and
efficiency.
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday we're going to challenge
everything you think you knowabout success when it comes to

(01:05):
weight loss and bodytransformation.
My guest today is Dr MickeyWilledon, a registered
nutritionist with nearly 20years in private practice, a PhD
focused on health andproductivity.
She is the host of theMickepedia podcast.
Go follow that right now.
I would highly recommend that,as in your feed.
She's talked to a lot of thefolks we love on this show Dr

(01:26):
Eric Halm, spencer Nadalski,brandon Cruz and so on.
So Wikipedia, check it out andshe's worked with world-class
athletes, public figures in NewZealand.
She is focused on bodycomposition and health, and I
think what sets Mickey apart isher redefinition of what success
actually means in nutrition andfat loss or weight loss.

(01:47):
And, spoiler alert, it is notabout losing weight.
It is a sustainable philosophyof behavior change that we
embrace on this show, yet isstill considered radical and
unconventional in the fitnessindustry, in my opinion, and
we're going to change that.
So today you're going to learnwhy weight loss and lasting
transformation are completelydifferent skill sets, the
specific competencies thatseparate people who maintain

(02:08):
their results from those whoregain, and why strength
training is not optional if youwant what we think that you want
.
Most importantly, you're goingto understand how to measure
progress in the ways thatpredict long-term success.
So with that, mickey, welcometo the show.

Mikki Williden (02:24):
Philip, thank you so much for having me.
I'm not sure about you, butit's always interesting hearing
your bio sort of fed back to youand I can't help but think gosh
, I'm really getting oldactually.

I've been around a while, right, you know it's
wisdom, though that's what I'vecome to embrace is the wisdom of
hard knocks, of experience.
I know, I know.

I in fact was speaking to a friend of mine who
I think would be excellent foryour show, actually Dr Dan Plews
, and he's an exercisephysiologist and he's won the
age group race at Kona plus inthe high rocks sort of world
championship, and he's like I'vegot to start thinking about
people over 40, but then I haveto admit that I'm over 40 myself
and I'm like, well, dan, I'mcloser to 50.

So maybe you should just like get on that because,
yeah, living in denial isobviously not a great thing.
Yeah, and you know it's funny,all of us that are over 40, I
think it's going to be the new20, or 60 is going to be the new
40.
That's our goal.
Right Is to turn back the clockfor folks.

Yeah, a hundred percent, and I also think,
philip, this is such a tangent,but I feel like we're so lucky
now it's a doubly sword, right,but we are so lucky with the
information we have available ifwe want to live our best lives
in the way that we can.
Compared to, say, our parents'generation where of course
things are a whole lot differentbut knowledge around the

(03:48):
importance of activity and dietand sleep and smoking, even for
part of our parents' generationit was considered nowhere near
as detrimental to health asclearly we know it is to be now.
So I do feel like 60 is goingto be the new 40, that kind of
thing.

Yeah, and so, speaking of that, we're trying
to open people's minds to someof these shifts.
And it's funny you mentionedcigarettes, because I just did
an episode about 1920s dietingand how cigarettes were marketed
as better than candy becausethey make you slim.
It's so crazy, it's insane, butuh.
But there are things thatpersist and one of those big
ones is that we need to loseweight and that losing weight is

(04:28):
the be all, end all.
And you know you and I on our,on these podcasts, are trying to
shift that.
But you've even said thatlosing weight is just the least
interesting part of the process.
Anyway, it's the leastinteresting part of
transformation, which begs thequestion what is the most
interesting part?

Let's get into that.
Yeah, do you know, philip?
I really feel quite passionatelyabout this because in my
programs I see literallyhundreds of women, mostly women
men as well and we canregardless, and they come in and
of course, it's a fat lossprogram, so their ultimate goal
in their mind is to shift theirhave that physical
transformation.
But the habits and behaviorsthat allow you to shift weight

(05:10):
are so much moretransformational than just that
physical like I feel like a lotof people come into a diet plan
with like they are a graveyardfor failed diets, like they're
like we have been pulling thingsout of our diets forever, for
decades.
That's actually the easiestthing for us to do, and it's the

(05:31):
habits and behaviors that allowus to lose weight that are the
transformational part of it,because as you execute these day
on day, you are showingyourself that you can do it and
you're building this confidenceand that's absolutely
transferable to other parts ofyour life, because there's a
real confidence issue, I think,and that's like just like a

(05:51):
small piece of the puzzle, butthat's a huge one, I see.

Yeah, and part of what you're hinting at is that
there are lots of things we canpotentially measure along the
way.
And do we even care aboutweight loss as a measure of
success?
Because I want to bring that up, because I talk about this too,
how, like, it's important toknow your body mass because it's
an input to other things, butit's not the be all end, all
measure that you're trying tonecessarily push or change, but

(06:14):
it could be in some cases, so,like, what's the real story for
listeners?
Should we care about weightloss as some measure of success?

So this will sound counter to what I just
said, but yes, I think so.
So a couple.
Let me caveat this.
So, from a big pictureperspective, if we think about
population health, philipbecause I think about this as
well is that over 70% of theWestern world would be
categorized as carrying excessbody fat.
That places them at poor healthoutcomes and higher risk, and
that is actually important.

(06:45):
So I do think that getting downto a body weight that is so
you're carrying less of thatexcess body fat, is actually an
important metric, and so I think, from that health perspective,
I do think for a lot of peopleit is important, and I also want
to acknowledge that it's okayto wanna look better.
It's okay to wanna fit into yourjeans.
It's okay to to want to lookbetter.
You know, it's okay to want tofit into your jeans.

(07:06):
It's okay that, that you wantto feel really pleased and
confident and proud of theperson staring back at you.
However, I think a lot of that,what you feel when you see the
weight loss, is actually thepride of executing the behaviors
that we were just talking about.
So so I do think it's important, but I do I think it's almost
not enough as a goal to helpchange behavior long-term,

(07:31):
because when the rubber hits theroad and stuff gets hard,
fitting into your pair of jeansis actually not enough of a
driver that stops you fromderailing your own success when
actually things get hard andthat's going to hit on the crux
of it.

You mentioned long-term and the sustainability
of it and the having a deepermeaning or motivation, and so
then maybe the thoughtexperiment is here okay, you
have someone who loses 30 poundsand then regains it which we
know is as many as 95% of people, right, is a common number
we've thrown around versussomeone who loses 30 pounds and

(08:04):
keeps it off for decades.
Again, just thinking aboutweight loss and how it is a
marker for health and it iscorrelated with body fat, and
we're not even getting into thenext level of optimizing body
composition.
We're just talking about basicobesity versus healthy weight.
What is the difference betweenthose two avatars?

Someone who yo-yo diets with losing the
weight just to regain it.
I mean they do place themselvesat risk of the cardiovascular
disease, type 2 diabetes, thesechronic diseases that people who
carry excess body weight are atrisk of anyway.
But, more importantly, whenthey lose that 30 pounds and
they regain it, they might losemuscle mass whilst they're

(08:46):
losing that body weight.
But when they're regaining thatbody weight, predominantly
they're regaining body fat.
So they actually end upovershooting on their body fat,
maybe even having more body fatthan when they started.
Because across the course ofthat weight loss and people who
are generally more likely toregain the body weight probably

(09:07):
didn't have in practice some ofthese, you know, best practice
ways to lose the weight in thefirst place, that helps protect
muscle.
So they're at a much higherrisk of these diseases.
And, importantly as well, likeI mean, muscle is a reservoir
for glucose, you know, like itis the thing that helps protect
our basal metabolic rate and ourability to exist on a higher

(09:31):
calorie level, and so it justmakes it harder in the longterm.
And you compare that to someonewho loses weight and is able to
keep it off, but they're muchmore likely to have sort of done
it in a way that allows them toprotect their muscle mass,
allows them to protect theirmetabolic rate, allows them to
still live their life while theydo it.
And I think that's reallyimportant, because you've got to

(09:53):
learn how to lose weight in thereal world, because life is
always going on around you.

So there are three massive takeaways.
You just said that.
I couldn't sum it up bettermyself for the listener.
One is the concept of body fatovershooting is important.
I think I first heard about itwith Lane Norton's Fat Loss
Forever back in the day.
Classic and some of the sciencehas changed.
We may not, for example, createall these new fat cells like we
used to think, and little thingslike that that weren't changing

(10:19):
, but the idea that we see thiswith Ozempic now you could have
massive muscle loss becauseyou're not doing anything to
protect it and you're losing ata very fast rate, and then what
you regain as fat makes itharder and harder, and muscle
being the foundation because ofits carb sucking, its glucose
sucking capabilities as a sinkfor glucose and increasing your

(10:39):
metabolism, and there's amillion other things, mickey,
which both you and I talk about.
And then the fact that it'ssustainable.
So a lot of people don't thinkthe fact that when they're on a
diet, they can do it in a waythat doesn't feel like misery
and they can do it at a rate ofloss that makes it feel like,
okay, I'm pushing but I can dothis, and it doesn't feel like
I'm cutting everything out, likeyou said before.

(11:01):
So I just wanted to reiteratefor the listener how important
those three takeaways are, withsuccess and sustainability
versus not.
So what that leads us to now iswhat are those skills that
separate temporary weight lossfrom permanent change?
And maybe you want to startwith one that people struggle
with the most, and we can gofrom there.

Yeah, okay, so this might be a bit.
It's not a skill necessarily,but it's a bit of a mindset
thing.
I actually think, philip, isthat sometimes we are sold in
the diet industry that it shouldbe easy or it's easy to lose
weight and it's simple.
It's not actually work and thereality is if you give someone a

(11:39):
diet plan and an exercise planand they follow it, they will
absolutely lose weight.
Diet plan and an exercise planand they follow it, they will
absolutely lose weight.
I think people need to thinkabout dieting or improving their
body composition, so like it isa set of skills.
The same way it would be if Iwas to take up guitar playing
right now.
You know, having never, ever,like, of course, I've touched a

(12:00):
guitar, but you know, like havenever, have never actually
learned how to do it, and sopart of learning how to play an
instrument or a sport islearning the fundamentals,
putting in into practice andthen putting in the hours of
training day after day.
Like dieting is a like andeating is a skill, and I feel
like people feel like theyshould know how to do it just

(12:22):
because they eat and you justcan't.
You actually underestimate thework that's involved.
So actually it is hard work tochange your diet in a way that
is sustainable and keep thatweight off.
So I think, accepting that it'shard work, accepting that
there'll be periods of timewhere it feels relatively easy,

(12:42):
but there are periods of timewhere it feels a whole lot
harder, accepting that therewill be pockets of time where it
feels relatively easy, butthere are periods of time where
it feels a whole lot harder,accepting that there will be
pockets of time where youabsolutely go off the
reservation and eat whatever.
But coming back to the toolsthat you've already got and
trying to get back and beconsistent, I think that's
really important because, out ofeverything, if you can't be

(13:04):
consistent in the long term,then nothing's going to stick.
But part of that consistency isaccepting that it is work and
the work is worth it.
I think that's it.

The work is worth it.
Somebody I think is it Andrewat Barbellogic calls it
voluntary hardship.
Right, and in the startingstrength world where I learned
how to lift, there's a lot ofmessaging like that about.
You know like your squats arealways going to be hard and if
you don't like them, they'regoing to be hard for the rest of
your life.
But you need to do them andthey're going to push you and
you're going to.
You're going to like them moreand more because of the result,
not necessarily because of thething itself, but this reminds

(13:36):
you.
So you talk about consistencyand skill and hard work and and
you know that phrase worksmarter, not harder.
I never liked that because Ialways thought I want to work
smarter and harder, like I wantto be efficient while I'm
working hard, not just not workhard.
So when you think of eating as askill and people are like, how

(13:57):
is that?
Like playing a guitar, causeI'm born out of the womb knowing
how to drink breast milk andeat and, yeah, foods around me,
course, eating is just eating.
Yeah, tell us about that.

Yeah, okay, so I guess it's you know, your.
It comes down to a lot of thehabits you put around, how you
eat and what you eat.
The reality is is that food iseverywhere to your point, and we
are certainly not in scarcitywhen it comes to food.
But having good choicesavailable, that's where the work
is involved.
So actually puttingprioritizing and it is

(14:29):
prioritizing meal prep, and Imean you'll know this meal prep
and meal planning initially, sowhen you are running short on
time you can just go to thefridge and pull out the chicken
that you air fried earlier inthe week and the salad that you
made and you know you've gotgood choices available.
Like those are the skills thatpeople have to learn, and

(14:50):
actually it's the prioritizationand recognizing it's important
because a lot of people thinkthat they can just wing it, but
our environment is not set up towing it.
It doesn't matter how much youknow, like you, that knowledge
isn't going to magically makethat chicken appear in your
fridge if you haven't actuallyprepped it.
So so I think a lot of the dietchanges that people you know
would would do well to makeactually come from the meal

(15:13):
prepping and the planning partof it.
To begin with, yeah.

So meal prep and planning, I mean, what that
strikes me is that it'ssomething you hadn't been doing
and now it's this step, changeof behavior you have to put in
place right.
Kind of like when you'relearning the guitar, you're
going to have to spend every daypracticing your scales.
You know, when you injureyourself and go to physical
therapy.
A lot of people don't do thephysical therapy at home right,
and they just regress.
It's like you have to.

(15:37):
There's the hard work youmentioned before.
There's the consistency thatdoesn't exist yet, and there's
the skill, even knowing what todo.
So, when it comes to like mealprep, meal planning, consistency
, all of that wrapped in a bow,what is your philosophy for
getting people to change theirbehavior in general?

Yeah, I think it's well, my philosophy is
around that mindset shift,actually Like so it's, you know,
like the I I mean the behaviorsthat I feel people need to make
are the ones that I'm sure youtalk about all the time, philip,
and you've talked with plentyyour guests about it's that
having that like basing yourmeals around that protein load,
having those abundance ofvegetables, people who tolerate
vegetables, so you've got goodfiber, so you've got that food
volume, switching up the flavorsa bit so your taste buds don't

(16:25):
get bored, so there's a littlebit of variety, but also
recognizing that it's just food.
You don't have to get all ofyour joy from your meals.
There are other things in lifethat also provide joy.
Having the texture on yourplate is also important,
important for your taste buds.
So there there are a lot ofsort of food factors that allow

(16:45):
you to be consistent with yourmeals in a way that keeps you
satisfied and sort of engaged.
But also it's that the mindsetthat if you do, you know you're
not going to ruin everythingwith just you know if you miss
just one meal or you knowsomeone offers you cake and you
have a slice of cake, like, andI think the catastrophe sort of

(17:06):
mindset and that all or nothingmindset really plays a big role
as well.
And so people understanding thatthese things, you know, if you
treat them for what they are,they're literally no big deal.
Like you might be on an eightweek plan, but let's face it,
you've got decades of your lifeleft.
You know, like any eight weekplan, like the ones that I do,
they're not, it's not a one anddone, it's like this is a

(17:27):
kickstart for how your foreverdiet could look, and we just
need you to practice theseskills in the container of this
group.
So you've got the support whenthings and when I say support
like no one's in there makingthe meals for them, but it's the
emotional support when they,you know they when things don't
go to plan.
That's the other support thatpeople need.
So getting them to sort of, Iguess, execute the behaviors but

(17:50):
also try and change theirmindset around that sort of all
or nothing approach that they'vepreviously had to diets,
because that's actually the bigthing, I think.

Yeah, again, you hit on a really good concept.
You talked about when peoplefail and I'm just going to use
the word they fail to dosomething right, they fail to
hit a target or eat what theyplan to eat or what have you.
And then you mentioned supportand emotional support to
practice and learn those skills.
I think all of that together isreally important.
It can apply to any context,right?

(18:23):
I think of, for example, publicspeaking skills.
I've been in Toastmasters foryears and it helped me become a
better speaker because I'm amonga group of supportive people
who are like-minded, who arepushing me but also they're
holding me as I fail every dayand they give me feedback on
that failure so I can improve.
So if somebody is listening andlike, okay, how do I even start

(18:44):
building these skills?
To begin with, like, what's thefirst thing?
And they may not have acommunity, they may not have a
program, maybe they can't affordit, whatever, but how can they
start?

yeah, such a great question, philip and I,
you know I've thought about thisa lot, like they're.
Like, I think, to my pointearlier about the accessibility
of information.
I think we're so lucky in andeveryone will have a different
way with which how to learnessentially, learn about learn a
shift in mindset.
So things that I have foundhelpful and my clients have
found helpful over the years.

(19:14):
One is that sort of dailyengagement and material that
helps you shift your mindset,and this will sound a bit I
don't know how this will soundactually but I love a lot of
podcasts, like probably a lot ofpodcasters do, and people
listening to this podcast do aswell.
And I love listening to bigthinkers and people who think
differently to me, and it mightbe on topics of nutrition and

(19:36):
health, which I'm superpassionate about, but also it's
on things like business and it'sthings on sport and listening
to other entrepreneurs and likeAI and tech, like people who are
successful just thinkdifferently.
And what I've recognized overthe years and then it probably
started with Tim Ferriss podcastactually is that in listening

(19:57):
to these podcasts just helped meframe things a little bit
differently in my mind andhelped me interpret the
information in front of medifferently to how my internal
narrative or framework mighthave it, because now I've
suddenly got a differentperspective with which I can
draw on, like, and that is likeone of the simplest things to do
and that's not the thing that'sgoing to change it, but it

(20:17):
absolutely helps me, this dailyengagement.
And so you know people often begsocial media, but I tell you
what I love social media for thebuild alpha accounts, for the
James Clear accounts, for thingslike that that just you know
you get a tile and, depending onyour mood, something's really
going to hit, it's really goingto resonate with you and you
just like get this.
Yeah, actually it's a differentway to think about it.

(20:38):
So I think because we know thatyou can't just sort of tell
yourself to think differentlyyou actually have to engage and
do something different to enableto rewrite that narrative.
But so that's my first thingthat I would say and I'm not
sure howyou.

Oh no, I love that.
First, I listen to a lot ofpodcasts as well, but I love how
you said like listening tothings outside the scope can
help you think differently.
It's not just differentperspectives within fitness,
it's like entrepreneur I meanreally good business podcasts
that are trying to pushentrepreneurs to really excel,
that that spirit of excellenceapplies to anything you do Right
, and that's amazing.

(21:12):
And then even individuals likeand there's there's people Dr
Mike Isertel.
I think he's hilarious.
Some people don't like him.
You know his humor, right, yeah, but he's a very much like
different thinker.
He's just a very differentthinker.
And then you and I were jokingabout like going on podcasts and
how we're all like colleaguesand half the questions that I

(21:36):
ask you today comes from theframing and the perspective of
all the other guests that camebefore, helping me think
differently about it and thenasking you something that pulls
it out for the listener.
So for the listener to havethat shift on today's
conversation, one of the thingsthat you are big into is
building that identity aroundbeing a health-oriented, a
strong person rather than adieter.
That's one perspective I thinkis different for the listener is

(21:58):
not trying to be smaller, asmaller, squisher version of
themselves.
I think is what you said, buttrying to be health-oriented and
I guess how do people make thatshift?

Yeah, and and I feel it's like you're right,
like it's, it's building abetter body composition, and
this is one of the things I talkabout as well, like when you're
building something, you've gotto actually add things in, you
can't just strip away.
And I think thinking about it alittle bit like that, thinking
about yourself, like you're theathlete you are, we are human,
we are athletes, like literallylike this is what a whole human

(22:31):
race, we should be athletes.
So what is that athlete mindset?
And it is more than justthinking and listening like
people will hate this, but Ithink writing stuff down.
I think reflecting on your dayto day or your week to week in
terms of what goes well for youwith regards to like even just
your meal prep and your, youknow, did you achieve what you

(22:52):
wanted to achieve today?
If not, why not?
Like what could you dodifferently to make things be
better the next day?
So it's having an athletemindset, but also that
reflection piece, I think is areally big part of it.
And mindset, but also thatreflection piece, I think is a
really big part of it.
And because your goal can'tjust be to fit into your genes
or to be a smaller version ofyourself.
It has to be bigger than that.

(23:13):
And the work around mindset youactually do have to put work
into it, and actually that's thework that people don't want to
do.
Yeah.

No, that's very true.
So two more things came to mind.
I'm always trying to relate towhat you said here.
One is years ago, as a youngengineer, I did a career
counseling session where we dida self-awareness exercise, and
it was the first time I everheard about emotional
intelligence and I realized inthe subsequent years how
powerful it was to sit and thinkand write and just be open and

(23:46):
raw about yourself.
And some people don't like todo that, I'll admit.
Some people don't like tojournal, so it doesn't have to
be journaling, right, like Ithink, okay, what if there's a
prompt on social media andsomebody asks you a question,
you answer it.
That's a way to document yourthoughts, right, to engage with
other people, to engage withfolks.
So, yeah, anyway, I'm justtrying to connect to the idea
that a lot of people are go, go,go right, and they're not

(24:08):
thinking.

So, philip, what do you think about voice notes?
And I've been thinking a bitabout this actually, because we
know that when you put pen topaper it actually changes the
activity in the brain.
That almost cements something alittle bit more for the person
when they're writing somethingdown which is often lost in our
world of you know, keyboards andcomputers.

(24:30):
But I do think the act ofactually saying something out
loud can be pretty powerful forsomeone as well.
So, you know, journaling isn'tabout then having to go back and
read what you write like no oneloves doing that.
But maybe in the same, with thevoice notes, maybe even just
voice noting when you're out ona walk, having a couple of key
phrases or mantras, or even justsaying out loud what went well

(24:54):
today or what could have donebetter today, I think that could
also work for some people.
But I'd love to hear what youthink actually.

Yeah, I guess the question is are you listening to
them ever, or are you justputting them out into the ether
when you record the notes?

Um, so, so I think actually just saying it
out loud, you get a shift inyour physiology.

I'm not sure.
Okay, yeah, because where mymind went was, first of all, I
do that all the time without adevice.
It's called talking to myselfwhile I go for a walk, right?
Out loud, like out loud or inthe shower or in the car I mean
everywhere but also I think ofhow I have some really close
friends and colleagues who Iwill do voice memos with on our

(25:34):
WhatsApp or Instagram orwhatever, and that actually also
serves that purpose.
It's funny, you mentioned that,but as far as yeah, why not?
I think there's something to besaid about multi-sensory
aspects of thinking and gettingyour thoughts out, and, as a
podcaster, we love to talk rightyeah, that's so true.

So you know, like people who like, so this is
work.
But doesn't you know, thoughyou're like reading your in your
.
I guess the work is settingaside maybe 5 to 15 minutes a
day and activities that sort ofengages your brain and gets you
thinking differently or thinkingbigger, like.
I think that's a reallyimportant piece of the dieting

(26:13):
exercise thing which I think noone really thinks as much about
or as much as they should reallyabout.

No, it's true, and I'm sure you've seen, or you can
tell me if you have, in yourpractice, because I see it as
well.
I have a group community now.
Now it's pretty big, and so yousee a lot of activity and a lot
of talking going on.
But the most value that I seeis when someone is reflecting,
when they're asked hey, whatwere your wins this week?
Or what are you struggling with?
Especially if it's a specificprompt, because some people

(26:41):
struggle to come up with athought and they're like,
specifically with meal prep,what's going on?
Like, tell me about it.
And that's when people writedown their thoughts.
You're like, okay, interesting,they wouldn't maybe never have
done that consciously were itnot for the prompt.
So, yeah, I think it's huge.

Yeah, and because I also think one of the
places that people struggle isactually identifying where they
struggle.
So you know, like again, socialmedia is everywhere, it's
already telling you that you'renot eating enough protein,
you're not eating enoughvegetables, you're you know,
it's telling you what yourproblems are, but actually
unless you, you know, quiteengaged in the process yourself

(27:19):
and you've got this level ofawareness, then maybe you're
trying to solve a problem thatisn't even really there for you.
And I guess this is and this isthe self-monitoring piece is a
big part of both fat losssuccess and fat loss maintenance
actually, and that's and youknow what is something that else
that people need to enable themto sort of maintain that weight

(27:40):
is absolutely monitoring.
We can absolutely go into whatthis sort of looks like, but
part of it really is thatawareness of either food
tracking or journaling orsomething like that, even the
food related stuff.

You just gave me an idea.
This is brilliant.
Okay, you gave me an ideabecause I'm a huge data guy and
always tracking metrics.
I'm always creating newtrackers for different things.
But one thing I've never doneand listen up folks, because
Mickey's the expert here is justinventory all the skills you
need and like how you'retracking against the skills,
Like just your rating againstthe skills right Kind of a trend

(28:13):
over time of meal prep, mealplanning, time management you
talk about all the time is askill.
So, what does that look like,mickey, if we said hey, here's
your top 10 skills on a page.
What would that look like?
Okay, so you've alreadymentioned a few of them.

This is great.
So it is.
It's meal planning, it's foodprep, it's the exercise you know
, like making time for exerciseand a lot of these things people
will do anyway.
But then also maybe alsoputting checking off.
At the end of the day, did youachieve what you wanted to
achieve?
Writing down one thing thatwent well?

(28:48):
It's writing down your food,it's like of what you ate, it's
and what about the?
These aren't skills, but it's apart of the monitoring thing.
Like like the.
What other monitoring?
Like did you hit your stepcount?
You know things like that.
So what?
I think?
Why I think this is reallyimportant, philip, and it's such

(29:08):
a good point is that whenthings go wrong and people don't
have a detailed sort ofunderstanding of why they just
think they've failed.
It's them, it's a personalityflaw, it's something innate in
their character that means theycan never be successful here.
But when you can sort of stepback and look logically well, I
failed because I didn't actuallydo my food prep.

(29:29):
Well, that's actually anobvious fix.
It's not to do with them andtheir character and their
ability, it's actually just thatthey didn't do the work that
they needed to do.
That's why I think it's such agood idea.

Yeah, and what you're hinting on there again is
like the cause and effect isnot always clear unless you have
the data points and themeasurement points in that chain
of cause and effect right.
It's kind of like we talk aboutobesity and people argue about
the root cause of obesity.
Well, obviously it's notcalories in, calories out.
It's one of the 50 things thatlead to calories in, calories
out right and you have to findupstream which ones matter to

(30:02):
you the most.

I was thinking, like you know, for a lot of
people coming into this areawanting to lose weight, this has
been like a lifelong struggle.
And so they've had, they've gotall of the data they feel they
need to show them that theycan't be successful here.
So it's that real emotionalroot of the, that's the thing
that really holds them back.
So that's why any opportunityto step out of that emotional

(30:27):
brain and when you can belogical and you can be sort of
think practically, I think isreally good, because then you're
able to start to prove yourselfwrong.
And so it's not even that.
It's that we're constantlyfighting against our own
self-limiting beliefs.
Again, I'm coming back to that,but it's just such an important
part of it that actually cannotbe solved in eight weeks, 12

(30:49):
weeks, 16 weeks.
So this is something thatpeople might be working on for
years because, don't forget,we've got decades of these
self-limiting beliefs, maybeeven for some of us who were
dieting with our mothers when wewere younger.
So people shouldn'tunderestimate the power of that
and how it drives their behavior.
I think so to your point.
That checklist, that proofevery day of that you're doing

(31:13):
it, I think, can be reallypowerful.

Yeah, and you just mentioned reframing again, too,
which is powerful, and dietingwith your mother, right?
And I thought of the worddieting, as you were saying that
, and the phrase weight loss.
There are some trigger words,right, that are interpreted a
certain way, and maybe certainpeople shouldn't even use them,
like I like to use fat lossinstead of weight loss, and I
will go out of my way to makeweight loss a boogeyman just for

(31:37):
that comparison.
Understanding, like you saidearlier, some people need to
lose weight from a healthperspective, but it's not really
just the weight that'simportant, right?
So when we take the worddieting, for example, how do you
personally, or even with yourclients, use?
What do you call being in acalorie deficit when you're
losing fat and losing weight?
Do you call it ever dieting?
Because I do occasionally, justrandomly, but is that a problem

(32:00):
?

I don't think so .
I saw a hilarious meme theother day by someone saying I
showed myself that I was born inthe 1900s, when I used this,
that I was going on a diet and Iwasn't in a calorie deficit,
which did make me laugh, becauseit's so true.
There are some things we arenot able to say in our
profession anymore.
I'm not allowed to say thatthere are good and bad foods.
Philip, let's be clear.

(32:21):
There are good and bad foods.
I know that's not.
It doesn't mean you're a goodor bad person because you eat
these foods, but there are,legitimately, foods that are
really great for you and thereare foods that aren't.
So dieting, I feel, has beenframed as this four-letter word
diet, whereas a diet isliterally what you eat and yeah

(32:42):
you know, like literally it is.
And so I feel like we place alot of power and meaning in
something like dieting, whenliterally is it's just what you
eat and we don't have to shimmyaround and I do say calorie
deficit but actually it's a, youknow, it's just, it's a fat
loss diet.
You know, like, is it anythingwrong with calling it what it is

(33:02):
?
So I just don't like to give alot of power to these things, I
guess.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I agree.
That's why I ask yeah, yeah,yeah for sure.
And I heard you talk about thegood and bad food thing.
With who was it with?
Was that with Brandon DeCruz,or did Lyle McDonald come on?

your show, no, no, no, I'd love to talk to him
at least.

He's got a huge personality.
You were talking with someoneabout it and, um, all I was
thinking is, oh, I've, I've donethat, I've said how, like
talking about the rigid versusflexible restraint literature
does look at moralizing food andlabeling food for some people
can be an issue, but at the endof the day, like we make more of
it than it should.
And in the fitness industry Inoticed there's a back and forth
of like boogeyman.
So as soon as somebody saysthere's good and bad foods,

(33:47):
that's a boogeyman.
Now you shouldn't say good andbad foods is boogeyman.
And then it kind of goes backand forth, which is funny, but
okay, so that's reframing.
And then what else?
Okay, so I know what I wasgoing to ask.
Eating more food but fewercalories, right, we talk about
food volume as another importantthing, and I think that's a
skill as well that's veryunderrated but also extremely

(34:08):
critical.
So what are your thoughts onthat concept?
That confuses people, causethey're like eat more, lose
weight.
What are you talking about?

Yeah, totally so , and so I talked to a lot of
women, cause I'm a volume eatermyself, Like I love a big amount
of food, and I know that for mepersonally, I'm not going to
feel satisfied unless I have adecent amount of food in front
of me.
But people confuse a lot of foodon the plate for a lot of
calories, whereas you know I'msure your listeners know as well

(34:36):
is that when you fill yourplate with that lean protein and
with vegetables, you can end uphaving a very low calorie meal
but having a large volume offood, and I think people equate
fat loss with having to eatthese like little, tiny portions
of food that never satisfytheir appetite, and so they're

(34:57):
always hungry, and I thinkhunger is actually an important
part of someone's you know, fatloss journey, and it's okay to
be hungry and in fact it's not abad, and it's okay to be hungry
and in fact it's not a badthing.
But to be constantly hungry anddistracted by food and this is
all you think about, like andyour meals are tiny, like that's
a problem and it's unnecessaryas well.

(35:18):
And people don't think aboutenergy density of food, like the
, the meals that that you and Iwould advocate people eat are
low energy density, but they butthey've got quite a few.
Like you know, they're reallynutritious, but they've just got
a low amount of calories,whereas something like a
sandwich might look like asmaller, like it's less energy

(35:39):
dense because it's a tiny bit offood, but actually it could
well be far more calorie denseor far more energy dense, but
it's not going to hit the samesatiety signals in your stomach.
So that's something else whichpeople need to get their head
around, because you don't haveto be miserable to your point
earlier when you diet.
You can eat a decent amount offood.
You just make better choicesthat allow you to do it.

And on that, food choice skill because there's
another skill on the list is howto select food.
Even if you're eating a lot ofwhole foods, energy density can
even vary.
Right, nuts are very energydense, so you got to be mindful,
and mindfulness is important.
What are your thoughts on inthis world where we have AI,
using AI to help with that?
So, in other words, this isyour food log, throw it in AI

(36:22):
and say look, something's offhere with my energy density.
Help me out.
Are you up for using thosetools?

I mean, I think they can be helpful, but I've
got to say, philip, sometimeschat GPT does a terrible job,
absolutely terrible job of like,give me four meals that have 40
grams of protein, and it'srubbish actually, but I think
it's not a not a bad place.
Equally, though, even justlogging your food yourself on my
fitness pal which isn't a greatapp, but it's the one that

(36:50):
everyone uses like that can giveyou some intel, and and I feel
like sometimes people outsourcetoo much of this information to
other people they're like tellme what's high in protein, tell
me what is low in calories, andit's like you should do that,
work yourself, actually, like,put that.
But this is where the learningcomes in.
And, yes, it does take time totrack your food.
It does take time to weigh yourfood.

(37:12):
Doesn't take that much time toweigh your food, but you know
whatever but, but this is howyou really learn.
But I do think ai canabsolutely be helpful, for sure,
but I often see what spits out,and I'm like man, I'm glad I
know this area, because if Iwouldn't, if I didn't, then I
could really be going on a badpath here.

It's so funny you mentioned that because the
latest I've been joking withother coaches about how AI just
validates.
It tells you what you want tohear.
I know I've tried.
I've said, look, rewrite thisin the style of so-and-so, and
it'll say something.
I'm like are you sure that's inthat person's style?
And they're like oh wait, no,it should be this.
And I'm like are you still sure?
And they're like no, no, no, itwas right the first time.
I'm sorry, you know, and it justjust telling you what you want

(37:53):
to hear and that reminds me ofyou know, when you said the meal
planning being rubbish.
It's like if you never in thefirst place understood energy
density and what your optionsare.
You don't know what to trust.

(38:14):
I suppose once you have thatbaseline level of knowledge,
then you know the informationcoming back you can validate.
Okay, I forgot about that chadgbt for the idea of tuna in a
can, like I have forgot aboutthat or whatever.
Yeah, totally so I also.

I also like that you.
You asked about the energydensity as well, but because
what I feel, uh, like themediterranean diet gets a lot of
air time and I love and I lovethe concept, albeit there is no
such thing as one Mediterraneandiet, and I'm sure you've talked
to people a lot about that.
However, people can get it intheir head that it doesn't
matter how much olive oil theyuse on their salad and it, and

(38:50):
it doesn't matter how muchavocado and and almonds and and
things like that.
So that's, and I think actuallylike a lot of people think they
they sort of quote unquote knowhow much they're eating.
But honestly, if you struggle,if you do eat, if you're
listening to this thinking I doa lot of what they're talking
about I'm not seeing success.
But if the one thing you're notdoing is weighing your food,

(39:12):
then that is that, that thingthat you need to do, because
it's actually like even the mostskilled individuals get like a
serving of peanut butter wrong,like that's the easiest thing in
the world to get wrong and it'sthe most disappointing thing in
the world to see.
But when you understand howmuch like an actual serving size
is, it really can change thegame with regards to your

(39:33):
success as well, right.

Yeah, you're hitting on the dichotomy, or the
difference between restrictingwhat you eat and saying I can
never have this versus theamount.
And to me, the amount gives youway more flexibility than
restricting the list.
Right, and that's the premise.
But you're right, carnivore,keto, all these diets do go off
the premise that, hey, you'regoing to be full, you can eat
whatever you want.
That's going to control thecalories and that may be true,

(39:57):
but you're restricting a bunchof foods, so you've got to take
into account that piece of it,right?
Yeah, yeah, so, and youmentioned you mentioned logging
and tracking.
So I'm also a big fan of thatand I know there's people use
tracking and counting caloriesand weighing food as like
boogeyman and in reality ittakes like seconds a day.
Once you get used to it, youknow like it doesn't take long,
just real quick.
Shout out Macrofactor.

(40:18):
I know you had Eric Trexler on,oh, amazing, yes, you know
that's the app I love to use, soI always tell people about it.
I have a code witsandweights twoweeks free.
Anyway, it's a great app.
I've used it since launch andthe reason I like it, mickey, is
because it estimates yourexpenditure from your food and
your weight which other?
apps don't do right.
So then you know okay, I'mburning this, I can get my
targets, yeah, yeah, but anyway,another hot topic is rapid fat

(40:43):
loss or rapid weight loss.
Yes, and I know you've beencritical of, like all these
coaches that are focused on thatbecause it's such a easy thing
to market and you have like.
Speaking of Lyle McDonald, hehas a famous RFL protocol.
I've had Bill Campbell on whohas some protocols, and I did a
challenge myself and talkedabout it and people come to me
like I want to do the rapid fatloss thing.

(41:03):
I'm like are you training?
Are you already tracking?
Are you eating your protein?
Is your mental health good?
Like all check, check, check,check, check.
But people just want to loseweight, so that's what they
think of it as.

So go Okay, that's great.
So, first of all, I I actuallyand this might be counter to
what you think I actually, andthis might be counter to what
you think I I love a rapid fatloss.
Yeah, approach absolutelyequally.
I love lyle mcdonald's work andbill campbell's work and I'm
100 with them.
So the things which the thediets that I rally against are

(41:33):
the ones that focus solely on so, to your point, lyle's is rapid
fat loss, whereas theaccelerated weight loss that
occurs through aggressivecalorie restriction and no, and
discouraging people fromstrength training, like that's
the type of you mean andprograms like that?

(41:54):
yeah, yeah, okay, yep, this one,totally this.
I came across one Philip calledthe human being diet.
That's really big in the UK.
Same thing like you eat nothingbut vegetables for two days and
then you eat vegetables plus atiny amount of protein, no
exercise allowed same.
There's another one verysimilar here in new zealand as
well.
Like and, and you literally seepeople just have this

(42:15):
accelerated weight loss and theylook no healthier, and then
they're in that position that wetalked about earlier of losing
30 pounds with losing like over40% of their muscle, and so
that's what I rally against.
I do think, though, that thereis a place for that aggressive
calorie deficit drop when youprotect muscle through protein

(42:38):
Like I use a protein sparing,modified fast approach in my
group program, and it's sosuccessful, and you've got that
strength training component,like I think there is absolutely
a place for that, but therealso has to be a place for that
sort of diet break and thatmaintenance calories, or however
you want to put it where you doactually eat more as well.
So you have that aggressivecalorie drop backed up by

(43:01):
additional calories just to helpoffset the stress of the
calorie deficit, and people canbe super successful with that
hello, I am berkeley and Iwanted to give a huge thank you
to philip of wits and weights.

Berkeley (43:14):
He has helped me so much, gave me a completely free
30 minute call where he answeredall of my questions, gave lots
of great insight intoprogramming and nutrition.
All of his content is reallywonderful and he has a great
Facebook group that issupportive and informational.
He has tons of free resourcesthat I really really enjoy and

(43:38):
they're all super science-based.
What I really love about Philipis that he always updates his
guides and he makes time toanswer any questions, even
though I am not currently apaying client.
He really has helped me so muchand I'm just so grateful.

Yeah, no, I totally agree.
Again, you're making thedistinction between weight loss
and fat loss and skills versuschaos.
And just I mean again, we see,with the agonists right, the
GLP-1s, the dual agonists aswell.
Now there's a new one coming, atriple agonist, where if you
don't have that support like Iknow, you had Spencer Nadalski

(44:19):
on and he's a big advocate oflifestyle with the drugs,
lifestyle with the drugs likeyou got to do both.
And I have a lot of clients aswell who are on towards appetite
or something and they maybehave a goal of eventually coming
off, but you've got to get thelifestyle going.
So the rapid fat loss is thereason I wanted to ask you about
.
It is because we're talkingabout skills and to me that's
like the epitome of prettydialed in skills.

(44:40):
Yeah, would you agree?
Like, what are the top skillsthat come out in your mind to do
that successfully and asopposed to somebody who's not
ready for it?

Yeah, so I think you've got to be so I think
there has to be a lot ofdiscipline actually with it.
Discipline and because you'vejust got to put in the work but
like you've got to mentally, you, I think you strength training
is absolutely critical.
So having that already dialedin, or being prepared to sort of
begin, is super important.

(45:10):
There's an element obviouslythere's a lot of cognitive
restraint that has to occurduring that.
You know, like the, the skillof saying no.
I think that's really important, because people will be
offering you food or you'll bein situations where food will be
available and you really haveto stay focused on the task.
I think you do have to beprepared.
All of those things that wetalked about I think are

(45:31):
necessary skills for someonedoing a rapid fat loss approach.
And then also and this is whereI see people getting a little
bit stuck though, Philip is thatrestoration piece, whatever
that looks like.
That's just as important as thefat loss aggressive fat loss
phase itself, Because if you gotoo far down the rabbit hole,

(45:52):
then you can get yourself inthat metabolic hole where you
are absolutely.
You're in this aggressivecalorie deficit place where
hormones start to get disruptedand sleep and energy and hunger
and cravings are all sort oframped up.
So it's that recognition ofwhat's enough and how far is too
far.
So you actually almost have tobe disciplined enough to eat

(46:14):
more afterwards actually.

Yes, that's a great point, all of what you said.
And, by the way, I love eatingmore seafood when I'm doing
something like this, becauseyou're like scallops, because
it's just pure protein.
But you know strength training,you know we've alluded to it
throughout here.
Originally I was going to getinto it as a separate topic but
honestly we do that to death onthe show and people are like
Philip shut up about it.
I know I got to lose weight andthat's fine.

(46:38):
But the cognitive restraint ofsaying no, see, this is where
people need to understand likethere's a duration aspect to it.
There's a what Jen Trebek shewas on my show from salad with a
side of fries.
She called the consistencyversus intensity.
You know, opposite, like curveswhere you're going to go all
out, dialed in discipline,saying no, a little bit of
restraint and a little bit ofrestriction.

(46:58):
Let's be honest in terms of thecalories, but for two weeks or
three weeks or four or whatever.
And that's really importantbecause with skills and habits
there is a you know, if it's allnew to you and you've never
done it before, you're going tofall on your face right Like
you're just going to fall onyour face.
But if you've got the basicskills and now you're leveling
it up just a bit to goaggressively for a short period,

(47:19):
you can be highly successfuland people come to me on these
things saying, okay, I'm donewith it.
Can I continue my fat lossphase pretty aggressively?
I'm going to say no, what youjust said you should restore and
come back to maintenance for awhile.
How long do you think mostpeople need before they then go
on another fat loss phase?

Yeah, do you know?
I don't think that I can answerthat as a blanket rule actually
.
It depends, yeah, it dependsyeah it's not great research
actually Like, if I look at thediet break literature and of
course you've, you know, spokento Bill Campbell, I'm sure,
about his work in diet breaksand whatnot and it's like, as I
understand it, you definitelyneed more than like two days and

(47:58):
for some people like a week isgreat and for other people it's
like they need a month.
But I think actually dialinginto that biofeedback will allow
you that sort of betterunderstanding of it.
So if you're you know, one partis that just that diet fatigue,
that mental fatigue fromrestriction.
You know, if you can't adhereto that approach, then you've

(48:19):
got to take a break and once youget that motivation back, then
it's a good time to sort of hitthe diet again.
But that little middle piece,what people don't understand, I
think, philip, is that actuallymaintenance in of itself is
still a dialed in approach tonutrition.
It is, it is not free for all.

(48:40):
This is where people fall down,because they are either on a
diet or they are well off a dietand there's never that middle
ground.
And that I think is one of thebiggest skills to maintaining
your weight is how much food doI need that allows me to
maintain, not my lowest weight,because your lowest weight is
not your actual maintenanceweight at the end of a diet,
that's you in a very depletedstate, but a kilo or two kilos

(49:03):
above that.
How much food do I need forthat?
And that's where people, Ithink, go a bit wrong.

There's so many side topics.
I would love If I come on yourshow maybe dive into one of
these.
But non-linear dieting youalluded to it because the more
and more I work with folks, themore I realize, just straight up
, staying calories every day isjust one little slice of the pie
of things that work for peopleright A lot of people and myself
included.
I found that weekend refeeds.
After looking at BillCampbell's, he did a research

(49:34):
review of a study from like 2021that actually showed a
potential benefit for lean massretention.
Just a slight benefit.
It's hard to know if you couldbelieve it.
You know or not, becausesupposedly as long as you're in
the same deficit it should bethe same.
But we see idiosyncrasies inthe research.
But from a psychologicalstandpoint, like you said, and a
recovery man, having thatweekend going back to

(49:54):
maintenance, it like resets youevery week.

Berkeley (49:56):
You know it's a really nice approach yeah.

Yeah, but for some people it makes them go off the
rails.

I know and, and you know, one of the feedback I
got from like a member of one ofmy plans where I instigate
these diet breaks, is she.
She was like I love yourprogram, mickey, but I still
felt like those diet breaks werea bit too restrictive.
And I'm like Cherie,unfortunately maintenance eating

(50:23):
actually is just a few extrahundred calories above what
dieting is.
So and I think this is, this isthe the thing that people yeah
to our earlier point they justdon't sort of get.
But I've also seen, and likeI've seen like changes in hunger
hormones from some of that workas well, like just that hunger
hormones are better regulatedwhen you have those sort of diet
break weekends.
And what I also think this doesis it stops that catastrophic

(50:46):
mindset.
You know, like part of thatmaintenance diet phase, if you
like, will be meals that you youmight not track and you know,
and that's okay as well, becausewhat is important is that
you're not going into that mealthinking it's the last supper.
You're not, you know, eatingeverything until you feel so
overstuffed.
So I often say to people eatwhatever you like as long as you

(51:08):
tolerate it.
Like, don't, you know, eatgluten.
If you don't love your bodydoesn't love it, etc.
But eat to feel satisfied andfull, but not stuffed, because
you never feel good feelingstuffed.
And oftentimes people equatesort of people call it like
treat meals or cheat days.
I don't love that.
I call it a metabolic resetmeal.
So, and people just you know,if they eat whatever they feel

(51:32):
like eating, but stop at thatpoint where they still feel good
, then they can feel much moreconfident about their behavior
and like, ah, I guess that onemeal didn't actually do me in,
unlike last week where I hadfish and chips something we have
here in New Zealand and then Ihad ice cream and, oh well, I
blew it all.
So I had the last of thosechocolates as well.
You know, that's often thementality.

Yep, and then that slice of pizza, right out of the
fridge.
I got it.
If I'm going to binge onanything today, it's going to be
barbecue, anyway.
So, okay, this is awesome.
Yeah, there's so many thingshere and it really does come
back to skills.
I like that we took thatapproach in that frame, and I
guess my final question then foryou is what is a skill that you
personally have had to masterthat maybe took some work and

(52:18):
change your relationship withfood, with all of this stuff you
know, as part of your journey?

Yeah, such a great question.
Philip and I, as I say, I'm avolume eater and I very
regularly overate, and it didn'teven matter that I was
overeating on vegetables.
You know like I would overeatto the point where I would feel
so stuffed.
And a part of this, brandon andI know we're wrapping up.
You know, when I was younger,my dad and I would we'd love to

(52:45):
share like pasta and we wouldlike get like a whole packet of
pasta.
I'm thinking about now I thinkit's 500 grams like of the
spaghetti pasta and we wouldhave it with a tomato based
sauce no protein here, folks,but we would also have a big
garlic bread as well and wewould literally half this meal
like I.
I was in a chub, I was I'm atwin and I was the chubby twin
when we were growing up, youknow, and so I just had.

(53:07):
I just struggled with overeating, like for a good like, from
from my teens right through toprobably my early 30s, and and I
really had to practice slowingdown what I was eating when I
was eating, slowing down,chewing properly and then
feeling comfortable with just anormal amount of food, even

(53:28):
slightly bigger than normalamount of food, to the point
that now, when I finish a meal,I cognitively think I'm very
conscious of the fact that, yeah, I could eat more but I
wouldn't feel good, and so Ijust have to.
I could eat more but I wouldn'tfeel good, and so I just have to
actually actively remind myselfof that.
And again, it's a work, it'sstill a work on for me and I get
it right probably 95% of thetime, but I still will overeat

(53:53):
on the other 5% and I feelterrible and I guess, lucky that
you know if you overeat 5% ofthe time, you and I know that
it's actually no big deal.
But also I have a palette forfoods which the things that I
overeat on tend to be sort ofthose foods that you and I, like
we, advocate people eat.

(54:14):
You still don't feel great.

But yeah, yeah, I know somebody who does that with
apples.
She just could eat like a dozenapples, you know like, and you
think, okay, no, she just couldeat a dozen apples.
And you think, okay, they saynobody ever gets fat eating
apples, but you can overeat.
And also, like you said, thebiofeedback and the hunger
regulation and how you feel anddigestively is an important
factor.
It reminds me for me that'salcohol, and I'm sure a lot of

(54:36):
people where I almost neverdrink now because, like you, I
drink so infrequently that whenI do, it exacerbates how or it
reminds me how stark thecontrast is between how great I
feel when I'm not drinkingversus this like why did I just
do that?
A little bit of pleasure in themoment.
You know that hedonism that weall have.
But again, if it's 5% of thetime, don't beat yourself up

(54:58):
over it.
Like you said, it's okay, we'rehuman, these things happen.
And maybe don't beat yourselfup over it.
Like you said, it's it's.
It's okay, we're human, thesethings happen.
And maybe it continues toreinforce why you don't do it,
95%.

Yeah, can I fill up?
Do I have time to just say oneother?

thing, please go for it.

So the the other .
So, as you know to your youmentioned my bio like I've been
doing this for 20 plus years nowand I have a science degree,
and so it's a nutrition and thenyou know that's what my
postgraduate work is in.
So I'm not a macro coach like Inever did.
I never did that weekend courseor whatever that that people do
, or do personal training orwhatever.
So I never used macros untilabout five years ago actually.

(55:33):
So I counsel people a lot onwhat a plate looks like rather
than what's in, but for my sofor my headspace, though, I
would also catastrophize foodsoff plan.
So I was very restrictive upand up into my 30s as well, and
it wasn't until I startedtracking that I realized that

(55:54):
have sharing a serve of, youknow, hot chips or french fries
with my husband wasn't an 800calorie blowout.
It was actually like 150calories.
It was nothing.
So actually it really itallowed me to be less
restrictive and more flexible.
So I think for some people andthis was the lesson that I
learned as well, which I'm sograteful for is that it allowed

(56:16):
me to be way more relaxed aboutmy food than I ever have been
now in my late 40s, which isreally nice.

That's so good, right, because there's so many
anecdotal but false narrativesabout the obsessiveness and the
OCD and the restriction you getfrom tracking.
Yet none of it is supported bythe evidence, unless you already
had that in you for otherthings.
And I love what you just saidbecause it made me think about
the pork tenderloin that I liketo have.
The first time I tracked andrealized it was quite lean and I
never thought it was because ittastes fattier than that and

(56:48):
you're like whoa, I couldactually eat twice as much for
what I thought.
And that's kind of a coolconcept I mean to explore for
people, because then it alsolets you play with swaps and say
, okay, I can swap this for this.
Listen to what Mickey saidabout food volume.
This thing has more volume, butit's pretty much a similar food
that tastes just as good.
So, boom, that's a win in mybook.
It's good.

I totally agree.
It just allows people that itallows them to move further away
from those.
That sort of narrative of Ican't eat this and I can't do
that Cause.
Logically, when you countcalories and put it in and it
all like you know, when you'reable to sort of see it for what
it is, you're like I can havethat.
So you're just further provingto yourself, when you, when you
do the exercise, that actuallyyou can probably be way more

(57:30):
flexible in your mindset, whichis the ultimately the goal
really when it comes to how youeat.

That's it.
Skills, flexibility,sustainability.
Love it, Mickey.
This has been a blast, so muchfun.
Listeners know they can findyour podcast Micopedia.
We're going to link that.
Is there anywhere else you wantto send them to learn more
about you and your work?

Yeah, amazing.
Thank you so much, philip, forthe chat.
I love chatting to like-mindedpeople.
So, instagram I'm pretty activeon the socials.
I try and translate conceptsinto language that people
understand and I'm a bit of ageek and I just share my life
actually on there, which I loveactually doing because I feel
like it's nice to be sort oftransparent.

(58:08):
So that's at Mickey Willardinon Instagram.

Awesome Instagram, yeah, and your content is really
good and, yeah, it's just kindof natural and I want to learn
from you in that regard, becausesocial media is not something I
ever really got into.
I love the podcast, so it'sgood stuff, and a lot of today's
discussion about skills isbased on some of your recent
reels.
So folks go check out andfollow Mickey on Instagram at
Mickey Willeton and check thoseout.
They're not just a fly by nightlike post sake.

(58:34):
She actually has really goodinsights that you're going to be
blowing your mind on a regularbasis.
So, mickey, mickey, thank youfor coming on.
Wits and Waits it's been apleasure to have you.

Thanks so much, philip, really enjoyed it.

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Losing Weight is Easy But Keeping It Off Takes Real Skill (Mikki Williden) | Ep 373

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Losing Weight is Easy But Keeping It Off Takes Real Skill (Mikki Williden) | Ep 373